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'It's Tricky': Apple Misses the Deadline To Pay $13.9 Bn To Ireland in Illegal Tax Benefit (cnbc.com)
Apple has not fully paid the 13 billion euros ($13.9 billion) it owes to Ireland in illegal tax benefits even though the deadline has passed, the European Union's competition said on Tuesday. From a report: "Well the recovery is not done yet but we have been working with the Irish authorizes and we can see that they are moving forward to do the recovery of the unpaid taxes," EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager said during a press conference in response to a question by CNBC. "It's a tricky thing to do because it's a large sum so of course you have to figure out how to do that. It's not as an escrow account in some of the other cases where it might be 25 or 30 million euros ... and therefore I do respect that it's a complicated matter and it may take a little more time. Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in "illegal tax benefits" from Apple. It found that the U.S. technology giant paid an effective tax rate of 0.005 percent in Ireland in 2014.
Hard to free up cash when all your money is hidden in holding companies, dodgy schemes and tax havens.
I'm sure Apple is quite pleased that an EU commission can decide laws for Ireland and decide if Irish laws are "legal" or not. After all, a democratically elected parliament that passes the laws sounds like Nazism to me.
AntiFA: An abbreviation for Anti First Amendment.
"It's a tricky thing to do because it's a large sum so of course you have to figure out how to do that. It's not as an escrow account in some of the other cases where it might be 25 or 30 million euros ... and therefore I do respect that it's a complicated matter and it may take a little more time. Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in "
ERR: Sentence ends in preposition.
I could just say "it's tricky" when the state comes to tax my business to hell and beyond. I pay 51% tax in total on my business entity here in Norway. If I try to fight this unjust practice against SMEs here in Norway they'll just ignore me.
I know that people are working overtime at Apple to come up with this solution but here are some ideas for you:
- Giant novelty check
- Mountain of pennies
- Unsold Apple watches
- Briefcase full of "iBucks"
- "Hey what's that?!" *run away*
My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
I know it sounds crazy, but last i heard the Irish government refused the money. Has that changed? Ireland is a very interresting place to do international business and i suppose this backtax issue is something Google and Amazon are paying very close attention to.
"I'm sure Apple is quite pleased that an EU commission can decide laws for Ireland and decide if Irish laws are "legal" or not."
I don't think anyone cares what Apple thinks, after all it was the democratic will of the Irish people that allowed that power to be handed to the EU in the first place, and it's within the grasp of the democratic will of the Irish people to choose to leave too.
But given that Ireland was an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater for pretty much it's entire history up until more modern times when it joined the EU, and given that it nearly went bankrupt still again in recent years and was saved only by the EU and other international players, I'm sure the Irish wont be too upset by the idea of making sure their government is held to international norms and doesn't get to just act as an illegal tax haven (illegal as defined by their own laws as per their agreement of EU membership).
It would seem a bit odd to say "We're leaving the EU, but we still need you to give us free trade, we'll probably also still be entirely financially dependent on you even though we're draining cash from your countries via tax evasion though".
If Ireland wants to exit the EU then sure, have fun being an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater, again.
They missed a deadline to have the money in an escrow account. With the ongoing legal challenges, the money would stay in the escrow account until such time as it is decided whether they have to pay the taxes, or they can take the money back. This wasn't a deadline to pay the tax itself.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0...
I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves. More incomprehensible to me is why any sovereign would agree to such external interference in the first place. The benefits of being in a free-trade zone, no matter how lucrative, are not worth handing your balls over to Brussels. Money should not be worth more than dignity.
This is what happens when you let Penn & Teller handle your finances, Apple.
She must at least have one king size Tullamore Dew in her bar cabinet by now.
It's not like you have to stuff greenbacks into coffers, you ain't bribing politicians to avoid taxes, you're paying taxes. I know you're not used to this, Apple, but trust me, this can be done by a simple wire transfer.
Cough up the dough! Under normal circumstances a horde of officials would now storm your house and steal everything in sight but a bed and maybe a TV. Why not this time? Tax officials are usually not very approachable when it comes to seizures.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
pray we do not alter it further.
-- Apple
Silly Ireland thinks corporations are beholden to silly little laws passed by silly little governments.
The EU decided to harmonize tax laws across the union to avoid exactly this, member states racing their corporate taxes to the bottom in an attempt to attract international companies.
In other words, you want to sell all over the union to the same conditions, you will produce all over the union to the same conditions.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If Ireland wants to exit the EU then sure, have fun being an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater, again.
We don't. We're not Britain. Nor are we stupid. Ireland is what it is _because_ of it's membership in the EU. We all know this.
However, we will fight for our rights of sovereignty, and our rights to set our own laws, as laid down by EU law and all of the various treaties that make up the bloc. While I think that we should take the money and that we did things wrong, I understand why the Government is fighting the EU on this. It's an important fight, even if ultimate we lose it (and are forced to accept the money - heaven's forbid!).
European Union's competition said
Eh? Editors edit much?
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves.
This idiotic bullshit "sovereignty" meme needs to die.
Being able to do whatever the fuck you like while everyone deals with you as if you're nice is not the definition of sovereignty.
Ireland agreed to not give state aid as a condition of being in the single market and the EU. They are sovereign because they can give state aid whenever and however they like, but they won't get to keep being in the EU.
You know what? Being sovereign is not being given cool shit while you act like a dick. It means people won't start shooting at you for things like that. Ireland is sovereign because no one will shoot at them if they say "fuck you" to the EU. Florida, Arkansas, Alabama etc are not sovereign: last time they tried to leave, some other people started shooting at them until they stopped. Ireland is free to invoke Article 50 (or just leave the club by fiat) any time they want and not a single shot will be fired.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Fuck Apple, and all Apple products
I keep hearing variations on that line with regards to Brexit (though the same would apply for any EU country sick of the EU's games, Ireland included), and just don't "get" it...
The US has free trade agreements with plenty of countries, despite not having given those countries the slightest hint of power to dictate what US law can or cannot do domestically. Why would a (former) EU country not have the ability to negotiate similar trade deals, totally in isolation from the immigration bullshit the EU seems intent to ram down its members' unwilling throats?
Ireland agreed to not give state aid as a condition of being in the single market and the EU. They are sovereign because they can give state aid whenever and however they like, but they won't get to keep being in the EU.
Sounds like a plan with no drawbacks to me. They can come begging when it becomes obvious that they fucked up. But all this hemming and hawing is bullshit. Make a decision and live with it. Drawing it out for years and years only permits bad people to continue to do bad things.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
However, we will fight for our rights of sovereignty, and our rights to set our own laws, as laid down by EU law and all of the various treaties that make up the bloc.
You explicitly penned away the right to do what you're doing here.
I understand why the Government is fighting the EU on this.
Yes, because there's a lot of money involved.
(and are forced to accept the money - heaven's forbid!).
There's a story about a goose and golden eggs you might consider revisiting — it's not a perfect match, but it's close enough to get the point, I hope.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
When was that ?
This will NEVER happens.
And this is a part of why people hate EU.
Because most of its trading partners are in the EU.
You don't shit in your boss's yard. You might not get your next paycheck.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
What do trade deals have to do with this?
Ireland signed away their rights to make discriminatory tax deals when they joined the EU. That was part of the cost of getting the benefits of joining the EU. Why should they be allowed to ignore those parts of the membership laws that they later decided were inconvenient?
You must keep in mind that in joining the EU member nations agree to surrender some of their sovereignty to a higher authority. It's not quite so extreme as for states within the US, but there are definite similarities. Especially if you look at how the US states-vs-federal power relationship was originally established.
--- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
No, the EU has NOT harmonized tax codes. The EU declared that they want to harmonize tax codes and setup the usual commission to study doing so. The commission has as much chance of actually doing so as cold fusion has of solving global warming.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
The grand nightmare is now upon Timmy.
The EU can petition directly to Trump for relief of the 14 Billion euros. Trump can pass an executive order "nationalizing" Apple Inc. holding and financial instruments and personnel, then liquidate assets in the EU to cover the value of the illegal tax dodge.
Timmy IS TOAST!
Hahahahahahahaha
If Apple is forced to pay the $13 billion, Ireland is unlikely to see any of it. Firstly, other EU countries would go after Apple for a share and also Apple could declare the tax in the US instead.
https://www.theguardian.com/bu...
It's tricky, you see you already make me pay "Income Tax" on the money that I make, but then you also tax me a "sales tax" on the things that I buy... but I can't buy things without an income, so I messed up this double-taxing concept and didn't have enough money budgeted. I'm sure you understand.
There are a couple of different things here:
First yes, of course they can try to negotiate a trade deal. But note that a trade deal with the US never happened.
Also that trade deal would take 5 - 10 years to complete, which is not the expected time-frame.
It would also not include many things the UK might want to keep like:
- access to be banking system and possibly even services (free trade except for banking and services would most likely be far, FAR in the "bad deal" area for the UK, and to my knowledge there is no fallback to WTO rules available for those)
- rules about which standards bodies you mutually accept - if for example the UK decides it doesn't want to be restricted by the agricultural rules for the EU, that would potentially mean that NO food (not at any price/tariff) could be sold to the EU. Cars that have approval for the UK could not be sold in the EU without getting separate approval (including a second series of crash tests etc) inside the EU. It goes on and on. This is called "barriers to trade", and in contrast to tariffs doesn't just make your products a bit more expensive, it might mean your product won't be allowed in at all.
- border controls in other countries. The channel tunnel has border controls in France, which rely on EU law and a common legal framework. If the UK exits that, that will no longer be possible. France would not have to turn away immigrants, which would result in loads of them reaching the UK. The UK would have no right to return them to France (as that right comes from being part of the EU). So the UK would either have to process anyone coming through or close the tunnel.
- free travel to and from Gibraltar. After leaving the EU, Spain could close the border to GIbraltar any time it likes. While that doesn't make much sense since it hurts their citizens working there, any time there are tensions it will likely happen. This might even cause shortages for some products that cannot easily be imported by ship. Norther Ireland/Ireland might have similar issues
- the possibility to participate in EU science projects. For example without new contracts and possible additional payments, the UK would likely not have access to the ESS being built in Sweden.
- many more things that are more minor
You can argue whether or not joining the EU has been a net benefit to Ireland (I believe it has, massively), the plain fact is that Ireland agreed to certain conditions as a result of joining and now needs to live up to its international obligations.
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
Even Al Capone learned, that either you pay your taxes or you go to jail.
Post brexit they would be the only EU country with native english speaker. I expect their business to boom , come April.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I accidentally modded down. Posting to erase. Absolutely insane. Whether you agree with a country's tax schemes, a sovereign nation has the right to decide these issues for themselves. More incomprehensible to me is why any sovereign would agree to such external interference in the first place. The benefits of being in a free-trade zone, no matter how lucrative, are not worth handing your balls over to Brussels. Money should not be worth more than dignity.
Except that being part of a trade agreement includes actually having to follow the rules as outlined as part of the agreement that you agreed to. If you didn't want to give up taxation autonomy then that should have been negotiated as part of the deal or you never should have signed it in the first place. In this case, Ireland gave up those rights to be part of the EU trading block and are trying to do an end-around the parts that they don't like.
For example, there have been many arguments in the NAFTA trade deal between the US and Canada concerning how import taxes are applied. Both countries have had to, at one point or another, reduce or remove certain import taxes as a result of it being found to be in violation of the trade agreement.
So no, a sovereign nation that has negotiated away those rights to gain a trade benefit does not have a right to decide by themselves and expect to continue as a partner in a trade deal. Of course, they can always decide to opt out. But, access to the EU trade market might be one of the reasons why companies choose Ireland beyond the obvious tax benefits.
Just treat it like any normal tax agency would treat it with late fees calculated on a prorated monthly basis.
If they were looking at 1B Euro penalties I'm pretty sure they'd have paid on time.
What is your country? I want to tell your government that my government can now use that freedom to tax yours. Let's call it 20%. For now.
Because money buys food etc.
Enjoy starving while feeling dignified..
Ireland thought they could get away with their usual dodgy deals forever and that the E.U would keep bailing them out,come what may,the E.U finally got cheeses off with the Irish trying to have a slice of everyone else's cake as well as their own...
Last year, the Commission ruled that Ireland must recover 13 billion euros in "illegal tax benefits" from Apple.
Ireland had to be forced to collect these taxes. They didn't want to do it.
The whole thing is weird.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
It's Tricky to dodge taxes, to dodge taxes that's right on time. It's TRICKY!
Well, the quote to which I responded said "We're leaving the EU, but we still need you to give us free trade".
All fair points - But if the EU hadn't gone off in a huff about the UK leaving, all the things you describe could be tidily wrapped up into a single trade deal that says little more than "we'll comply with all applicable EU standards on goods and services"; and with the exception of some minor quibbles about trivialities such as who can make Feta, Cheddar, and Champagne, I think the UK would find that compromise entirely palatable (no pun intended).
That has nothing to do with taxes and nothing to do with immigration; and if the EU hadn't tried to force those issues on the UK, the UK almost certainly wouldn't have voted to take their ball and go home in the first place.
IMO, the UK made the right choice, and Ireland would do well to follow suit. Trade deals shouldn't affect their respective partners' self-sovereignty.
But given that Ireland was an irrelevant poverty stricken backwater for pretty much it's entire history
That is both highly insulting and incorrect. Ireland was poverty stricken after the 16th century Tudor re-conquest, and particularly after the late 17th century Dutch conquest of Britain, until around the 1980s as a result of the English policies suppressing industry, education and property rights, sure. Feel free to read about the penal laws if you want. That's hardly "pretty much" the past 13 thousand years. As for irrelevant, in 1800 Dublin was the sixth largest city in Europe, and second city of the largest empire the world has ever seen.
Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates. The EU is full of it on this issue.
Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates.
I like the analogy regarding unity and sovereignty as state vs federal jurisdictions so I'm stealing this thought process, but I'm going to claim it as original on my part.
Thanks.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
This idiotic "corporate sovereignty" meme needs to die first so that we don't end up in a world full of little fiefdoms run by socioipathic suits with absolute power over their workers and absolutely no sense of responsibility. OK, well yeah, we live in that now. Fuck it, lets just pit governments against corporations and with any amount of luck both will be wiped out and we'll return to the days of popes and kings.
UK companies will be free to abide by EU regulations and still be free to sell them in the EU (the UK's main trading partner) but the UK will have no influence on what they might be.
Not for me.
Actually, you want the corporate income tax rate to be zero. It's a tax on investment and job creation. When profits are paid to the owners through dividends or capital gains is when you want to tax. Taxing retained earnings reinvested in the business is like a farmer eating his seed corn.
Ireland has the right to set it's own tax rates.
Yes it does, and the EU won't stop it. It doesn't have the right to set its tax rates to give state aid to Apple while remaining in the EU. While it stays in the EU, the EU will tell it that it must stick to the rules agreed.
Sovereignty is not getting shot at when you set your own taxes. It's *not* being able to renage on agreements without having the other side stop their obligations.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
It's a small country, but it isn't THAT small.
The EU isn't a dictatorial authority, this issue will be settled in court. But I'm pretty confident Ireland can have one general tax rate for corporations, and different rates for corporations locating savings or intellectual property in Ireland, since those activities don't generate any costs for the Irish government.
You explicitly penned away the right to do what you're doing here.
The EU maintains that Ireland gave Apple preferential tax treatment that was not available to others and thus amounts to a subsidy which Apple must now repay. We agreed not to give subsidies under EU treaty.
Ireland maintains that we put in place an attractive tax regime available to all to encourage FDI. This is allowed under EU treaty and law, and in fact is used by all EU nations.
So if the EU are right, we get roughly 13 billion in back taxes from Apple. If the EU are wrong (which I believe they are) then we don't. The reason that this is so heated is that it at the edges (Apple were the only company to take advantage of the rules at the start) and there is a worry that this is an overreach by the EU commission which affects the ability of the government to levy its own taxes, which the the countries making up the EU have agreed is up to the individual countries.
Rational thought is the only true freedom
"Apple refuses to pay artificial, complete made up tax bill to the EU."
The EU isn't a dictatorial authority, this issue will be settled in court.
Um yeah?
But I'm pretty confident Ireland can have one general tax rate for corporations, and different rates for corporations locating savings or intellectual property in Ireland, since those activities don't generate any costs for the Irish government.
I expect so. What they're not allowed to while remaining in the EU do is have one rate for Apple. If they have a preferential rate, it has to be open in principle to anyone.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
"Florida, Arkansas, Alabama etc are not sovereign: last time they tried to leave, some other people started shooting at them until they stopped"
Uh, that's not true. The confederate states declared their successions starting in the November of Lincoln's election, and formed the Confederacy in February. it wasn't until they attacked Fort Sumter in April that the Union responded.
Sovereignty is just the military capability of defending yourself, the border lines of countries are redrawn regularly. Remember when progressives went ape sh*t over the US invading a "sovereign Iraq"? It's really a meaningless word, it's first definition is "a Monarch".
As is the case pretty much everywhere, paychecks are taxed MORE than corporate profits, except in a very specific case.
The employer pays unemployment taxes and 7.65% FICA, the employee pays 7.65% FICA, and the employee pays income taxes. Total tax rate on money paid to employees as compensation is around 41%. Much of that is not subject to deductions and credits.
Corporate tax is 34% of the amount over $335,000, with lower rates for the first $335,000.
One big thing the IRS watches out for is businesses paying the owner/managers too much in dividends and not enough salary, since salary is subject to FICA taxes X 2.
Where the US taxes corporate profits heavily is big corporations paying dividends. That would be a Chapter C corp without the subchapter S election paying dividends. They pay the 34% tax in the name of the corporation, then the stockholders pay ANOTHER 25% or so (up to 39%). Plus potentially a 3.4% Obamacare tax. That's a total tax of about 53%, up to 59%. For this reason, some US investors invest their money in other countries, where savings/investment is encouraged by the tax law.
Uh, that's not true. The confederate states declared their successions starting in the November of Lincoln's election, and formed the Confederacy in February. it wasn't until they attacked Fort Sumter in April that the Union responded.
Uh that's not true either. Mine was a simplification to make a point. You're making out like the union sat around doing nothing until the confederates fired a shot. That's not true either.
Remember when progressives went ape sh*t over the US invading a "sovereign Iraq"?
I remember people going apeshit about starting an unnecessary and expensive (in terms of money and lives) war under false pretenses.
It's really a meaningless word
Not really. If the UK wasn't sovereign, most likely there'd be military action to stop us leaving the EU, just like there's be milirary action now of California or Texas tried to leave the US. We are sovereign which means we can leave if we like. So can Ireland if they don't think the deal they have is worthwhile.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Yeah. I bet the Irish people love the fact that Apple doesn't pay tax.
Its not like Apple likely gave government officials kickbacks. I'm sure they just asked for a lower tax and got it
They can set what ever Tax rate they want. Under EU rules of being a member state they cannot give preferential tax treatment to a single body. If EU members could it would be a race to the bottom with little to no tax being paid to help run the Irish state so is that something you want to happen?
Well put
Uh, that's not true. The confederate states declared their successions starting in the November of Lincoln's election, and formed the Confederacy in February. it wasn't until they attacked Fort Sumter in April that the Union responded.
Uh that's not true either. Mine was a simplification to make a point. You're making out like the union sat around doing nothing until the confederates fired a shot. That's not true either.
Actually, yes, it is true. Until the firing of Fort Sumter, Lincoln's strategy was to pretend the articles of secession did not exist. Until his death, his position was that the seceding states had never left the union as a matter of legal fact.
Ireland signed restrictions to that right when joining the EU. They have every right to leave the EU and set their taxes any way they want. Then the EU will have the right to impose import tariffs on the companies that get a favourable deal from Ireland.
That's the way the world works.
What a ridiculous comparison. You have no idea about Nazism, do you?
The EU is an organization, like the WTO, NATO, UN. If you qualify, you can join and enjoy its perks. But you also have to abide by the rules. Ireland seems to think it can enjoy all the perks of EU membership and play by its own rules.
The law that requires European union countries to collect taxes was created in the 50's, and Ireland pledged to follow that law when they joined the EU. Member countries can set their tax rates to be whatever they want, all that's required is that they collect them and give no corporation special treatment over another.
They're a-hole liberals all of them, refuse to employ Irish people if they can help it (mainly Asians, gays, trannies), spent a lot of influence and money on making the gay marriage referendum go through - especially Twitter. I say take the tax money and use it as a buffer to restructure and let those companies go somewhere else.
Americans, Trump needs to reform H1B, as well as lower corporation tax. I like Trump's mantra - American jobs for American workers.
Don't want to pay taxes in the US? Don't get protections from nationalization efforts.Stop the shell game, pay your fucking taxes, and let's Make America Great Again!
It's nothing of the sort, and you absolutely do not want it to be zero.
It's a tax on profits, not gross revenue. If money is paid out, it's not profit.
The corporate income tax should be exactly the same as the individual tax rate, to discourage corporations from sticking profits in a bank.
And capital gains are income too, they should be taxed at the same rate as any other income.
While we're at it, sales of shares are sales, they should be subject to sales tax.
Not to mention that the only reason Apple and various others are using Ireland for this is due to their membership of the EU in the first place (so they can aggregate their sales there). If Ireland wasn't in the EU, then Apple would never have "moved" there in the first place.
I feel ya Apple! All my money is tied up in Flooz!
The only time a job is created is when people buy more than a manufacturer can produce with his current capacity. Nobody employs anyone he doesn't absolutely have to.
If you want to look at a job creator, look in the mirror when you spend money on consumer goods.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
No, it really isn't true.
Look here: thre's a whole timeline of events.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
You're making out that a bunch of states seceded then nothing happened until they attacked on April 12 1861. That ignores the negotiating and military preparation on both sides.
SJW n. One who posts facts.