Tesla Is So Sure Its Cars Are Safe That It Now Offers Insurance For Life (mashable.com)

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Tesla Is So Sure Its Cars Are Safe That It Now Offers Insurance For Life (mashable.com)

Posted by msmash on Friday February 24, 2017 @06:40AM from the confidence-level:-sky dept.

In the self-driving future envisioned by Tesla CEO Elon Musk, car owners might be saying "goodbye" to a whole lot more than steering wheels. From a Mashable report: Musk is so sure of the safety features bundled into Tesla vehicles that his company has begun offering some customers a lifetime insurance and maintenance package at the time of purchase. No more monthly insurance bills. No more unexpected repair costs. "We've been doing it quietly," Tesla President of Global Sales and Service Jonathan McNeill explained on the call, "but in Asia in particular where we started this, now the majority of Tesla cars are sold with an insurance product that is customized to Tesla, that takes into account not only the Autopilot safety features but also the maintenance costs of the car." "It's our vision in the future that we'll be able to offer a single price for the car, maintenance and insurance in a really compelling offering for the consumer," added McNeill. "And we're currently doing that today."

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Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 06:43 · Score: 1

There's no such thing as for life. If Tesla wants to bail, they can change their name to Tesla Motors 2 and get out of it.
1. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Gordo_1 · 2017-02-24 07:17 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  Do you also stand at the door at parties to offer couples the odds of them remaining together long-term?
  Relax dude, most human beings understand that if the company they get insurance from stops existing, they no longer have insurance from that company. If you don't trust that company, then um don't buy insurance from them?
2. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by tripleevenfall · 2017-02-24 07:35 · Score: 2
  
  I think this is probably Tesla's way of varnishing over the fact that most insurance companies aren't going to insure SDC's or aren't going to ensure them at rates people want to pay.
3. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by TWX · 2017-02-24 07:41 · Score: 2
  
  There's no such thing as for life. If Tesla wants to bail, they can change their name to Tesla Motors 2 and get out of it.
  They could, I won't completely contradict you on that, but in recent history both GM and Chrysler went through bankruptcies essentially launching new companies, but they did not use that as an opportunity to drop warranty promises that they made. Chrylser in particular had offered lifetime warranties on vehicles in the mid Noughties and they still acknowledge their coverage even though this could have been an easy way to get out of commitments to several million vehicles that were far past what a normal warranty periould would be.
  
  If automakers shirk responsibilities like that then it's going to be harder to make sales down the road. Things would have to be pretty dire to back out of commitments like that.
  
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4. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by TWX · 2017-02-24 07:43 · Score: 4, Funny
  
  Do you also stand at the door at parties to offer couples the odds of them remaining together long-term?
  Hell, most of the parties I went to, predictions would've been, "Tomorrow morning, tomorrow morning, tomorrow evening, Sunday morning, Tonight at 11:03pm following two minutes of strong apologies..."
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
5. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by GameboyRMH · 2017-02-24 07:49 · Score: 1
  
  Not at all, SDCs are massively safer on average and therefore massively cheaper to insure. This is a smart move into the auto insurance industry just as the old guard is about to suffer a nasty famine...you don't need sprawling insurance companies to handle the rare autonomous car crash, just a glorified legal department at an auto manufacturer. In the future, individual car crashes will be newsworthy because of their rarity, like plane crashes today.
  
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  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
6. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 08:24 · Score: 1
  
  Relax dude, most human beings understand that if the company they get insurance from stops existing, they no longer have insurance from that company.
  Ummm, no!
  In most civilized countries, you can't sell insurance without being regulated. Govt regulations require that insurers have adequate reserves to pay out their insurance claims. Insurers have to reasonably invest the premiums to get an adequate return.
  Otherwise people will buy insurance and the companies will quickly go out of business leaving customers high & dry.
7. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by thomn8r · 2017-02-24 08:48 · Score: 2
  
  If Tesla wants to bail, they can change their name to Tesla Motors 2 and get out of it.
  Like GM did when they crashed, burned and were revived a few years ago - they got to wipe all their old debt and recall liabilities off the books.
8. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by TWX · 2017-02-24 08:59 · Score: 1
  
  Here I was thinking it would be the cliche of, "I'm sorry, this doesn't happen to me, let me get a tissue..."
  
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9. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-24 09:07 · Score: 3
  
  Except in the airline industry, part of a pilot's training is to ground check the plane before taking off. A person owning an automated car can be expected to maintain the pressure in the tires etc. but never will they spend 20 minutes checking their vehicle before leaving the driveway. Also, airplanes have many people monitoring their safety. Where I usually fly from, planes have to be completely de-iced. With all those sensors, automated cars will likely need to be de-iced as well to work properly but who is going to do that in their driveway. So automated cars will need to work with the same reliability as an airplane in all weather with a fraction of the maintenance and oversight that airlines get. And they'll only become safe if the manufacturers don't get sued into oblivion first.
  
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10. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 09:44 · Score: 1
  
  There's no such thing as for life. If Tesla wants to bail, they can change their name to Tesla Motors 2 and get out of it.
  
  Do you also stand at the door at parties to offer couples the odds of them remaining together long-term?
  Relax dude, most human beings understand that if the company they get insurance from stops existing, they no longer have insurance from that company. If you don't trust that company, then um don't buy insurance from them?
  The difference is that with regular insurance you pay a certain amount for a defined period, usually 6 months or a year.
  With this offer you will presumably be paying a lot more for insurance for "life". As someone else mentioned, not sure if that's my life or the life of the car. Unsaid is that this is also for the life of the "company". I think the original poster meant that this is risky. I'd rather pay small amounts for small periods of time. There's a lot less at risk.
11. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 10:06 · Score: 1
  
  Unless you need to store things in your car, there will be no reason to own an autonomous car. The cost to have a car pick you up every time will fall to close to the actual per-mile cost of ownership with sufficient competition.
12. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-24 10:17 · Score: 1
  
  Obviously you have never had to use a car with two car seats. It's a pain in the ass to install them every time and NO company provides a car with two car seats, a person must own a car with them installed. Plus I see no reason why autonomous car services will cost any different than a taxi does today. Once these fleets roll out and the riders have to pay for autonomy insurance, cost of equipment and maintenance, it will be pretty much the same price as a taxi today.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
13. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by queazocotal · 2017-02-24 10:19 · Score: 1
  
  You are assuming that existing owners spend time checking out their car.
  Internal sensors can detect a number of defects, and you can greatly reduce the cost of service if you can nuke all of the booking and other work, and instead get the car notifying you that if you pop in for a free service as you're about to drive past it, you get a free pizza (or whatever), so they can correct what's wrong with the car, and do whatever quick preventive maintainance would reduce their costs, that may greatly improve the condition of the car over a comparable car which doesn't have such a plan.
14. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-24 10:25 · Score: 2
  
  But it has to get out of the driveway to get serviced. Has anyone taken a car fully outfitted with lidar/radar/cameras, left it outside in a blizzard overnight and then tried to get every sensor working in the morning? Say the frost messes up the cameras and the lidar but the radar is still working, can the car limp to a service station like that? Also you can't be paying a service station every time your car doesn't work due to cold.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
15. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by queazocotal · 2017-02-24 10:35 · Score: 1
  
  In the context of a lifetime warranty, the company will want to reduce their costs as much as possible - this includes doing preventive maintenance on the vehicle that your average owner won't do.
  If you're not able to drive it without cleaning off the snow, then that's a different issue from something breaking due to a fault, or lack of maintainance.
16. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 10:39 · Score: 1
  
  To be fair, part of the reason you need a walk around on a plane is that you can't just pull over to the side of the road if a part falls off.
17. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-24 10:39 · Score: 1
  
  A person can only be expected to do so much. I can clean the snow off the surface of my vehicle and people are expected to do this. But people are not llidar technicians, nor do they have the time to clean 50 little sensors. You push the snow off your windshield, scrape it, and go.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
18. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 11:16 · Score: 1
  
  Or you know, have family editions of the car which have standard carseats installed. Which *drumbroll* cost more. You have special requirements, more people, more need, you pay more, or purchase your own car. Honestly Uber/Lyft so long as you aren't traveling during high demand hours are getting close to the point with me it's easier to call them than dick with my own. Hell if a friend needs a ride I'm getting to the point of paying for them an Uber than speanding gas, the 30-60 minutes it takes to get them, they arrive in half the time, and enjoying my life far more presently.
19. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by AaronW · 2017-02-24 14:47 · Score: 4, Informative
  
  Things are rather different for airplanes than cars. Airplanes are far more complex in terms of what can go wrong, however for the most part autopilot is simpler. My model S already checks the tire pressure. If the car is iced up it likely won't drive itself either, since obviously all the cameras need to work as well as the ultrasonic sensors and radar.
  The reliability of a car also does not need to match that of an airplane since with a car you can usually just pull over. With an airplane carrying a lot of passengers it's a whole different story. It's not like it can just pull over and stop at 30,000 feet.
  Mechanically they're night and day. The number of moving parts in a Tesla's drivetrain is a small fraction of what it is in a gasoline or hybrid vehicle which is a lot simpler than an airplane. The car already monitors just about everything as it is such as battery temperature, current/voltage, coolant temperature, air temperature, tire pressure, traction control, stability control, etc. There's even a rain/snow sensor. The autopilot feature also won't work if the car can't see the road clearly and it's not supported if it's raining or snowing. The car even monitors the state of the 12v battery. In my model S it warned me before it failed, and my car is a first generation model.
  The car also is paying attention to a lot more than a driver can, since with 8 cameras and other sensors it is constantly looking all around the vehicle. It doesn't get distracted either by kids in the back seat, changing radio stations, or cell phones. The software will continue to improve as time goes on.
  
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20. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by Enigma2175 · 2017-02-24 18:29 · Score: 1
  
  Relax dude, most human beings understand that if the company they get insurance from stops existing, they no longer have insurance from that company.
  Ummm, no!
  In most civilized countries, you can't sell insurance without being regulated. Govt regulations require that insurers have adequate reserves to pay out their insurance claims. Insurers have to reasonably invest the premiums to get an adequate return.
  Otherwise people will buy insurance and the companies will quickly go out of business leaving customers high & dry.
  Yeah, just like AIG, which was regulated so well they needed the largest government bailout in US history.
  
  --
  Enigma
21. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by GameboyRMH · 2017-02-25 00:34 · Score: 1
  
  Because there are already some SDCs with optional manual controls on the market, from Tesla.
  
  --
  "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
22. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by lsatenstein · 2017-02-25 05:59 · Score: 1
  
  There's no such thing as for life. If Tesla wants to bail, they can change their name to Tesla Motors 2 and get out of it.
  They mean the life of the vehicle.
  
  --
  Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
23. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by stoatwblr · 2017-02-25 15:49 · Score: 1
  
  There's a very simple reason they'll be cheaper than taxis: Drivers are the single most expensive part of the package.
  Plus, drivers working longer hours make more mistakes and put cars off the road as a result.
  SDCs will pretty much come to dominate the market in a very short time thanks to hefty insurance premiums for manually driven ones - and whilst with child seats you might be a corner case the end result is likely to be a 80-90% reduction in urban vehicle ownership _especially_ in Europe.
24. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by stoatwblr · 2017-02-25 15:54 · Score: 2
  
  The existing lidar in my 15 year old car has heaters in it specifically to deal with that kind of instance (funnily enough, so do the wing mirrors and they're hot enough to not just melt ice but to cause noticeble water evaporation if the vehicle is stationary.)
  Yes, you need to brush the snow off, but running for five minutes take care of the rest - and in those kind of environments you're a bit of a tool if you don't have your car garaged/covered/ plugged into power to preheat overnight and if you can't do any of that, using a webasto heater to bring the car up to temperature BEFORE trying to crank the engine.
  Cars only get unreliable because you LET them get unreliable.
25. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by stoatwblr · 2017-02-25 15:56 · Score: 1
  
  Tesla's cars are not SDCs by any stretch of the imagination. They're level 2 automation at best.
  Whilst that's a LOT better than most humans most of the time it's not better than most humans all of the time.
26. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by stoatwblr · 2017-02-25 16:07 · Score: 1
  
  There are 2 kinds of insurance (more than 2 but I'm keeping it simple)
  1: Liability insurance for poor driving
  2: Insurance for damage from any other cause.
  You're still going to need insurance to cover repairs after the asshole down the street keys your car and you can't get charges pressed (actually the insurance company will get its pound of flesh, but that's not your concern if they pay for the repairs) etc, but this kind of insurance is quite cheap.
  It's the first type that's expensive, and that's mostly driven by medical claims, a lot of which are vastly inflated and have a huge element of "he said, she said" in assigning fault.
  When the car is documenting every single thing that happened around it at the moment of a crash (assigning fault will be easier) and the impact forces (which means that vastly inflated insurance claims will be challenged), as well as doing a lot more to avoid being in a crash than most humans in the first place (Seriously, most crashes are the result of at least 3 serious driver errors added together, even if poor highway engineering is a contributor), that first part is going to be very low (all insurance is determined by the cost of claims and the statistical chances of claims happening. There's enough competition in the market that no one's raping and pillaging on premiums)
  Once it's low enough, then a company like Tesla can afford to self-insure and farm out underwriting to third parties (NO insurance company ever underwrites 100% of its own liabilities, this is all packaged and sold as risk packages)
  And in the case of the second item, local scumbags are going to find out very quickly that SDCs record every detail, every minute of the day, even when parked and quiescent - which means identifying whodunnit will be a lot easier (and therefore claiming from THEIR liability insurance)
27. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-26 02:34 · Score: 1
  
  There's a very simple reason why they will be as expensive as taxis, corporations are greedy. You think they are dumping billions into self driving just to make a 0.01% markup on their services? They look to take the cost savings of the driver to the bank.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
28. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-26 02:37 · Score: 1
  
  There is not always a plug available. I would do that at home, but if I stay overnight at a friends and park on the street, no plug available. Plus public lots ticket you if you they anything more than a block heater plugged in, and even that they cycle on and off because they won't want to pay for the electricity to run them.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
29. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by AK+Marc · 2017-02-26 19:07 · Score: 1
  
  And why not make 2 car seats per car, built into every car, with fold-down rear car seats, embedded in the car. Not rear-facing, but that could be done, right one rear facing, left one front facing, built into the car, and folded out when needed, 10 second conversion. Easy. Nobody has done it because it's cheaper and easier to buy a car seat. If that changes, it's trivial to fix.
  
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30. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by AK+Marc · 2017-02-26 19:09 · Score: 1
  
  Self driving tow trucks for self driving cars is a trivial response to your imagined problem, should it become a real problem.
  
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  Learn to love Alaska
31. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-27 00:56 · Score: 1
  
  Why not just transport to work?
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
32. Re: Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by fluffernutter · 2017-02-27 00:58 · Score: 1
  
  If you think towing a car is a solution then you have never truly depended on a car.
  
  --
  Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
33. Re:Yeah, with a fucking asterisk by stoatwblr · 2017-03-03 12:15 · Score: 1
  
  Which is why I mentioned webasto heaters. They exist, they work and they're reliable.
Whose life? by almitydave · 2017-02-24 06:43 · Score: 3, Insightful

Insurance for life on Autopilot safety features? Whose life? Mine, or the car's?

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1. Re:Whose life? by arth1 · 2017-02-24 06:48 · Score: 1
  
  This was my first thought too.
  I've seen "lifetime warranties" before that had tiny print saying the lifetime would end upon release of the next version.
2. Re:Whose life? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 06:52 · Score: 1
  
  And if it's the car's, how long is it's lifetime?
3. Re:Whose life? by AvitarX · 2017-02-24 07:13 · Score: 1
  
  Especially since it includes maintenance, a car typically dies when it's not worth maintaining.
  
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4. Re:Whose life? by silverkniveshotmail. · 2017-02-24 07:16 · Score: 1
  
  I've seen "lifetime warranties" before that had tiny print saying the lifetime would end upon release of the next version.
  I'd like to see an example of that.
5. Re:Whose life? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 07:33 · Score: 1
  
  Dude, he's seen it, ok? All right technically somebody told them a friend who had seen it, but that guy was straight up. You can count on it. Sheesh you're a Donny Doubtful.
6. Re:Whose life? by TWX · 2017-02-24 07:47 · Score: 1
  
  And a car is only not worth maintaining when a myriad of factors including personal feelings judge it so.
  
  I spent a large portion of my twenties going junkyarding for parts for my various cars. Sometimes I pulled parts of of cars that were arguably in better shape than my own (and no, I couldn't just but the junked car, the junkyards don't usually sell them back whole unless they decided to do so when they initially received them) and had very little really wrong, or if there were big issues, there were plenty of other cars from which to source whole assemblies like transmissions and engines.
  
  A lot of those cars went off the road because the owners were weary of them already, and the repair estimate was the final nail in the coffin.
  
  --
  Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
7. Re:Whose life? by networkBoy · 2017-02-24 08:36 · Score: 1
  
  Standard Auto loan terms are 3,5,and 6 year.
  I would argue that the car is (should be) designed to last at least the duration of the terms of the loan, or more realistically 10 to 15 years...
  Beyond that I would expect that there will be additional costs that the end owner is expected to pay? That's when the suspension is really due for an overhaul on most cars.
  
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8. Re:Whose life? by thinkwaitfast · 2017-02-24 08:41 · Score: 1
  
  I collect antique cars. I think they're worth maintaining and my oldest is nearly 100!
9. Re:Whose life? by edtice1559 · 2017-02-24 10:04 · Score: 1
  
  We're starting to see a lot of 7 and 8 year car loans at very low rates. Cars last a lot longer now so longer-term financing may make some sense. Although I genuinely struggle to think it's really a good idea in most cases.
10. Re:Whose life? by AvitarX · 2017-02-24 10:29 · Score: 1
  
  My last car was 11 years old, 180k miles.
  Mechanically pretty well, my fat ass had the driver's seat shot though.
  I traded it in when a speed bump blew the side airbag, otherwise, I bet it had a lot of life left in it.
  
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  Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
11. Re:Whose life? by stoatwblr · 2017-02-25 16:10 · Score: 1
  
  There's quite a bit of software which pulls this stunt.
  It's completely illegal for consumer sales just about everywhere but tends to be in B2B anyway - whilst still illegal in most countries the costs of pursuing it are usually higher than the benefits and regulators for the most part simply can't be bothered with this kind of misleading shit.
  Then there's the lifetime warranty that's only valid if you keep paying the maintenance charges - and at the end of 5 years or so, those start increasing by 100%/year.
12. Re:Whose life? by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:29 · Score: 1
  
  HP did that. "Lifetime hardware warranty", but the first hardware replacement after the part is EOL voids the warranty, as you get the new gear, and no lifetime warranty on that. I've seen that elsewhere as well. Should be billed as "One free HW replacement (unless we fell like giving you more)" warranty.
  
  --
  Learn to love Alaska
state minimum insurance? by Joe_Dragon · 2017-02-24 06:43 · Score: 1

What if you move?
Just Remember, Folks. by newcastlejon · 2017-02-24 06:45 · Score: 1

"For life" doesn't necessarily mean "for long".

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1. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 07:09 · Score: 1
  
  Most people rich enough to afford a new Tesla trade their car in every 2 or 3 years. So yeah, not long at all.
2. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-24 07:15 · Score: 1
  
  _Most_ people rich enough to afford a Tesla are also in the last 50% of their lifespan, probably the last 25% of their motoring lifespan. Now, how often they give their shiny bauble to the kids to play with is another problem.
3. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by lgw · 2017-02-24 07:16 · Score: 1
  
  Most people rich enough to afford a new Tesla trade their car in every 2 or 3 years. So yeah, not long at all.
  Many people who drive a Tesla trade their car in every 2 or 3 years, and from habits like that never become wealthy.
  Most wealthy people who can afford a Tesla (just pay cash, not a big deal) got that way by not wasting money. The Model S seems to be setting down to having good reliability, finally. Seems like a reasonable car to keep for 20 years, with only the battery replacements as a significant expense.
  
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4. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by bluefoxlucid · 2017-02-24 08:06 · Score: 1
  
  I doubt battery replacement will be a big expense in 20 years. In real life, we've seen those batteries perform such that they should still have 94% of their charge capacity after 100,000 miles. At 20 years in and 12,000 miles per year, 240,000 miles, they'll quite likely have 85% of their capacity--which means the 150 mile range is a 136 mile range. With high-voltage DC J1772 combined charge connectors, you can power that up in an hour (Tesla has supercharger stations boasting something ridiculous like 50% charge in 20 minutes). Some of these Teslas have a 280-mile range, which still gives you a 238 mile range--over 2 hours between recharging on a road trip. The extra 15-30 miles is as many minutes of driving, so is insignificant--either the long trip has too many charges already, or it's a minor inconvenience that shifts your schedule by a few minutes.
  Consider modern vehicles have a 200-300 mile range. My Mazda 3 needs a gas tank fill-up every 240 miles--about 2 weeks. Since most people aren't filling their 12-gallon tank every day ($800/month of gasoline), we can surmise the range of a Tesla is well more than the range required for nearly 100% of driving. When that range decreases by 15%... you're still using 10% of the battery's charge, then charging back up when you get home. Shrug.
  The battery has to start physically failing before it needs real replacing. Even if it's a $12,000 battery, it'll be an $8,000 battery or a $6,000 battery in 20 years (plus inflation--which means it might still be a $12k battery, but the median income will be $118k anyway so it's still half as expensive). Amortize that over 20 years. Gas today is $600/year (with 2% inflation over 20 years: $891); battery tech taking half the labor (low-maintenance, self-driving, electric freight haulers to deliver heavy shit; automated factories) means you'd be looking at $300/year paid in the inflated future. You're comparing roughly $20k of gas to $6k of batteries--and, again, you can probably defer the battery replacement.
  Consider that plus the damn things require a bit under 1/4 of the cost of gasoline--you're looking at $5k over 20 years there. So you're saving $9k out of $20k. You could also get a Zero SR and pay about $1,620 over 20 years instead.
  
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5. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 08:35 · Score: 1
  
  I guess it depends on your annual mileage and how carefully you look after the car, but cars in general just aren't planned or made to last 20 years any more. Even if the car still runs, the interior will be worn out etc.
  Many car companies have started doing stuff like not supporting even top end models that are over say 5 years old with any more software updates (nav system map updates, bluetooth compatibility updates etc). Also you start not being able to get replacement parts for them any more, at least from the manufacturer. If I was cynical I'd say that they are doing that on purpose, just to get you to trade up and buy another car again.
  Its one of the bigger reasons why I never buy new cars and always prefer cars with as little technology as possible in them, but those are getting hard to find.
6. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by thinkwaitfast · 2017-02-24 08:46 · Score: 1
  
  20 years, really? I with my laptop would have a 94% of its charge capacity after six months.
7. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 08:48 · Score: 1
  
  >> At 20 years in and 12,000 miles per year, 240,000 miles, they'll quite likely have 85% of their capacity
  Not even close, especially in hot climates like CA and AZ. I used to work for one of the 3 big EV charging station companies and they also have a sister company that does EV battery testing for the government. I can tell you that no EV car battery lasts anything like 20 years. With a normal drive cycle its about 4 years max before you start noticing very significant amounts of dropoff (like 1/3) in max range, and depending on how determined to save money you are, it will be maybe 7-8 years max before even the most determined owner HAS to totally replace the battery.
  Tesla is also using the same battery tech as everyone else so they are just as susceptible, no matter what their glossy advertising claims.
8. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by lgw · 2017-02-24 08:59 · Score: 1
  
  Some high-end cars are built not to wear out in that way. Any part made of rubber will fail eventually and need replacement, of course, but high end cars with e.g. more than one layer of door seal just hold up better. One selling point of the Mercedes S-class is the the interior holds up well over time, even with kids and pets and whatnot.
  The nice thing about an electric car is the minimal amount of drivetrain parts - there's so much less to fail due to age. No water lines or gaskets or vacuum hoses, beyond the odd closed-system engine cooler.
  The interior might not be nice after 10 years (but then, Tesla interiors don't start out nice IMO), but the car will be reliable and the interior serviceable.
  
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9. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by torkus · 2017-02-24 09:39 · Score: 1
  
  Then there must be a awful lot of abnormal drivers...bc there are battery packs out there at 4+ years old (and older tech ones at 8+) which still work just fine.
  Time will tell ... but of course it already has and it disagrees with you.
  Thanks for preaching!
  
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10. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by torkus · 2017-02-24 09:41 · Score: 1
  
  If a car is mechanically sound after 10 years and not a repair $ pit then replacing or rennovating the interior is certainly an option. Tesla doesn't completely change their car every 3 years which helps immensely.
  
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11. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 09:48 · Score: 1
  
  >> The interior might not be nice after 10 years (but then, Tesla interiors don't start out nice IMO), but the car will be reliable and the interior serviceable.
  I agree (especially about Tesla interiors being not nice) but the future problems with incresingly high-tech cars are going to be stuff like if you accidentally crack the screen, or if its backlight goes out or something, you wont be able to get a replacement for any money because they stopped making them 10 years ago, and without that screen you can't control anything in the car.
  I'd be fine with a basic (i.e. not connected, not self-driving or weighed down with a ton of high-tech) electric car as my daily driver if my home and/or work had charging stations (which they don't), but I'd also keep a good ol supercharged V8 around for weekends when I want to actually enjoy driving. Yes I already know a P100D can probably accelerate faster but it's still about as emotionally sterile as a dentists waiting room.
  I'd personally never buy any car thats stays connected to the manufacturer and/or sends back data on you, so that's Tesla out again right there. Also any/all GM brand cars (Chevvy, Buick, GMC, Cadillac) since they all unavoidably come with On-Star now.
12. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 09:59 · Score: 1
  
  I think the real point is that if you can afford to buy a new Tesla and use it as a daily driver, car manufacturers think that you probably don't care about buying a whole new one every 100,000 miles (in my case that would be every 7 years) either.
13. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 10:07 · Score: 1
  
  > there are battery packs out there at 4+ years old (and older tech ones at 8+) which still work just fine.
  Sure they may still move, but you apparently intentionally missed my point.
  Please cite a single CREDIBLE source that shows there are any EVs out there that after 4 or 8 years of a normal drive cycle are not experiencing massive range loss.
14. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by squiggleslash · 2017-02-24 11:26 · Score: 1
  
  They're announcing this shortly before the Model 3 goes into production, which will be a mid-budget vehicle.
  (Also worth noting: the AutoPilot++ or whatever it's called, the version that's supposedly SAE 5 level that'll be released before the end of the year, isn't free. It's an extra people will have to pay for. If you assume SDC technology will reduce accidents by 66%, and if regular insurance is $1000 a year, then they need to price this at around $3,000 assuming a normal average ten year lifespan of each vehicle. IIRC that was the ball park for the price for the SDC add-on they're going for, so this is quite believable. You're not paying for the technology - that's already paid for, you're buying insurance for the lifetime of the vehicle.
  
  --
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15. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by lgw · 2017-02-24 11:43 · Score: 1
  
  if you accidentally crack the screen, or if its backlight goes out or something, you wont be able to get a replacement for any money because they stopped making them 10 years ago, and without that screen you can't control anything in the car.
  Heh, that was a (potential) problem with my 2003 Infinity, where the HVAC and entertainment system were on the same board. Very few of these cars were made, so it was $2k to get a replacement. But there's always a replacement somewhere.
  
  but I'd also keep a good ol supercharged V8 around for weekends
  Does anyone even make them any more? Superchargers seem to have fallen by the wayside as the engineering on turbos got better for low-RPM power. All the fun sports cars are V6s or heavily-boosted 4-bangers anyhow. It's the high RPMs that make the drama, far more than actual power.
  
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16. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 12:03 · Score: 1
  
  >> Does anyone even make them any more?
  They are definately a dying breed but Jaguar do . My XKR is one (they stopped making them in 2015). The V8 Supercharged F-Type is still being made. I Haven;t checked but I'd guess that Aston Martin are still making the V8 Vantage S. I'd also be surprised if there isn't a factory V8 supercharged Mustang/Cobra or Corvette.
  >> All the fun sports cars are V6s or heavily-boosted 4-bangers anyhow.
  Debateable and probably VERY subjective, but a relatively small whiny high-revving motor with the inevitable narrow power band does next to nothing for me.
  To me at least, there's something distinctive and special about the sound and driving feel and fat torque curve of a V8 (or better yet a V12), even more so when you add a supercharger. Next down my list would be a straight 6, then comes your V6, and at the bottom are all the 4 bangers.
17. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by rtb61 · 2017-02-24 13:58 · Score: 1
  
  For life, means for the life of the company. How long would that be with life time insurance, one successful botnet hack and a million crashes in one day, would pretty much do it. I can accept automated transit in an enclosed transport system but out in the open, no fucking way, just no, fuck off, seriously no, nup, nu uh. I am not having some stupid hacked car drive me straight off a cliff or into a train or into opposing traffic, all because some script kiddy, bought some software off a psychopath hacker and there are plenty of them out there. Does anybody ever bother to read shitty software warranties, I mean they are truely woeful crap, me, risk my life on those crap warranties, talk about Blue Screen Of Death.
  
  --
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18. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by NitroWolf · 2017-02-24 14:53 · Score: 1
  
  Then don't charge your laptop to 100%. Charge it to 80% and try not to let it go below 20% charge and you'll have a laptop that has 94% of it's original capacity after 6 months, 12 months... probably 48 months.
  It's when you charge it to 100% each time or drain it past 20% each time that the battery really starts to degrade.
19. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by NitroWolf · 2017-02-24 14:55 · Score: 1
  
  >> At 20 years in and 12,000 miles per year, 240,000 miles, they'll quite likely have 85% of their capacity
  Not even close, especially in hot climates like CA and AZ. I used to work for one of the 3 big EV charging station companies and they also have a sister company that does EV battery testing for the government. I can tell you that no EV car battery lasts anything like 20 years. With a normal drive cycle its about 4 years max before you start noticing very significant amounts of dropoff (like 1/3) in max range, and depending on how determined to save money you are, it will be maybe 7-8 years max before even the most determined owner HAS to totally replace the battery.
  Tesla is also using the same battery tech as everyone else so they are just as susceptible, no matter what their glossy advertising claims.
  This is demonstrably false, as Teslas have been out for more than 4 years and are seeing minimal battery degradation. I have a 2012 Telsa (one of the first 2000 off the line) and the battery degradation is sitting at 96% of its original capacity. It has almost 100,000 miles on it. So I've lost 4% in 4 years and it's been holding steady for the past year at that rate. There are numerous other examples of this in the Tesla world. Do your research. Spewing false facts (ahem, I mean alternative facts) about EV batteries isn't helpful.
20. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AaronW · 2017-02-24 15:04 · Score: 1
  
  At 100,000 miles the consensus is that an 85KWh battery still has 95% of its capacity. The batteries are also designed for automotive use with active heating and cooling as necessary. Laptop batteries are not designed for longevity, nor do they have active temperature control. Laptop batteries (and other consumer device batteries) are usually designed primarily with cost and capacity in mind. As long as they last as long as the warranty that's all they care about. Furthermore, laptops don't treat their batteries very well. Lithium ion batteries really hate being fully charged for any length of time and being fully discharged. When I researched the batteries used in my Tesla model S it showed them having over 70% capacity after 3000 full charge/discharge cycles. Assuming 200 miles per charge (actually it's a fair amount more) that works out to 600,000 miles.
  Generally one doesn't charge the car to 100% or drive it down to 0% either. The car lets you choose how much you want to charge it and warns you if you choose over 90%. I am just shy of 50,000 miles and I haven't noticed a drop in range or performance in the four years I've had my car.
  
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21. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AaronW · 2017-02-24 15:10 · Score: 1
  
  Tesla is NOT using the same battery tech as everyone else. Here's a good talk about them.. Dr. Jeff Dahn is one of the foremost experts on battery failure.
  Tesla also has active battery thermal management using liquid cooling. The Nissan Leaf, by comparison, does not. Tesla's chemistry is also a lot better than the chemistry used in the Leaf.
  
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22. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AaronW · 2017-02-24 15:17 · Score: 2
  
  I have a 4 year old Tesla model S with 50,000 miles on it. I have not noticed any loss of range or performance. The general consensus among owners is that there is a 5% loss of range at 100K miles. Now Tesla has a much better battery thermal management system and a better chemistry than a number of other manufacturers (i.e. Nissan, GM, etc.)
  Degradation turns out to be around 23 miles per 100,000 miles driven.
  Here's an excellent talk by one of the foremost experts on lithium ion battery degradation.
  
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23. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-25 03:23 · Score: 1
  
  >> Do your research.
  Like I said, I worked for one of the big 3 car charging companies and they had a branch doing research for the government. I know what I'm saying. Good for you with your car but your anecdote certifiably doesn;t hold up when you look at more than your car.
24. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by lgw · 2017-02-25 10:23 · Score: 1
  
  Based on what, exactly? Obviously there would be a battery pack replacement along the way, but electric motors don't exactly wear out quickly.
  
  --
  Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
25. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by bluefoxlucid · 2017-02-27 02:57 · Score: 1
  
  The plural of anecdote is data, and currently data from the deployed fleet of (very few) tens of thousands of Teslas demonstrates that loss at these levels is standard behavior and fully-expected of a Tesla battery in a Tesla car. Tesla's battery management system attempts to keep the battery at optimum temperature and avoid overcharge and undercharge.
  Zero Motorcycles are similar. They recommend getting the Zero plugged into charging at a temperature above 0C, as extremely low temperatures will damage the Zero battery; the BMS will keep the battery warm/cool and charged to the appropriate level for storage if left hooked-up long term. I'm not sure if their BMS is as advanced as Tesla's, and would need statistics and information specifically on cooling of the battery in hotter climates to make further determinations; Tesla uses liquid cooling and has a heat pump available in the car, so they can keep the battery cool in hot weather so long as there's sufficient power.
  Obviously, cars stored on battery power in adverse conditions will fare worse. If you want your battery to last, keep your car plugged in so the active management systems don't undercharge the battery and don't give up on temperature management.
  All the outdated research in the world won't stop you from being wrong if the facts don't agree with your conclusions.
  
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26. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:35 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, the Lithium batteries in GM's EV1 were shit.
  
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27. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:41 · Score: 1
  
  Cars in the '60s had 1 year warranties, maybe 2 year warranties. They weren't built to last. Today's car will last much longer than a '60s car. The problem with your perception is that the '60s cars you see were the top 1% of the millions of cars made then, or the ones that had 10x their purchase price paid to keep them like-new.
  
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28. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:43 · Score: 1
  
  a P100D can probably accelerate faster but it's still about as emotionally sterile as a dentists waiting room.
  Ah yes, if all else fails, insult the emotions of an inanimate object. It doesn't care, and you look like an emotional fool.
  
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29. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-27 06:57 · Score: 1
  
  Who's talking about cars from the 60's? I have a 1997 Toyota 4 runner, I bought it maybe 5 years ago for 4k, have put well over 50k miles on it including some fairly hardcore offroading, with never a single fault or problem. All I've ever done to it is oil and tyres. Its now got nearly 200k miles on it, still drives great and it still shows zero sign of anything about to break or otherwise be a problem. I think it has a very basic ECM but other than that, the most complex electronics in the car is the cassette radio.
  Perfect vehicle.
30. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-27 07:09 · Score: 1
  
  Actually if there's one thing that cars aren't its inanimate.
  OK take a look at this:
  http://auto.ferrari.com/en_EN/...
  If that picture leaves you emotionless then I truly pity you for your total lack of anything like a soul.
31. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 09:08 · Score: 1
  
  Subaru WRX is faster and cheaper, yes, not as sexy, but I don't sleep with my car.
  
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32. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 09:11 · Score: 1
  
  So you are saying planned obsolescence has started in the past 10-20 years? Funny, I've heard that complaint for many years longer than that.
  
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33. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-27 11:37 · Score: 1
  
  >> So you are saying planned obsolescence has started in the past 10-20 years?
  Not at all. How did you even get that from what I said?
34. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 14:19 · Score: 1
  
  I mentioned cars from the '60s, and you countered with '97. So, when is the timeframe when "cars in general just aren't planned or made to last 20 years any more" when you have a 20 year old car. And I've had more than one 20+ year old car. So what time frame is your "cars in general just aren't planned or made to last 20 years any more" comment valid for? '80s GM cars were shit. And '60s cars were offered with a 1 year warranty for a reason. But today, a car should work 20+ years, same as 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and good cars from 30 years ago.
  
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35. Re:Just Remember, Folks. by JustNiz · 2017-02-27 14:56 · Score: 1
  
  >> So what time frame is your "cars in general just aren't planned or made to last 20 years any more" comment valid for?
  I wanna say maybe 2005(?) onwards, when at least top-end/luxury cars all did away with separate stereos and physical heater controls etc, and started getting VERY tech-heavy with all-in-one central LCD screens that control everything, built-in bluetooth and nav-systems (that go obsolete in 3 years because you can no longer get software updates/map updates for them) etc.etc. Its been a downhill slide of manufacturers unavoidably shovelling ever more and more expensive and time-limited and completely unnecessary high-tech shit into every car ever since. In terms of miles you can drive, I agree cars are probably as good as they've ever been, however the moment something like a transmission computer breaks that they don't even make anymore, you're truly fucked. Anything pre-2005 you can pretty much self-service because its low-tech and simple. Good luck with trying to fix anything yourself on say a Tesla. Apart from anything else they'fve started to load them up with DRM in the firmware etc to make sure you HAVE to go to a dealer because they are the only ones with the right (software) tools.
Supportive by al0ha · 2017-02-24 06:51 · Score: 2

I like to be supportive of Tesla, as the ideas are great, but based on past offerings this is likely get it while it's hot. Remember free supercharging for life?

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1. Re:Supportive by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 06:53 · Score: 1
  
  Yeah, more like "Free insurance until Elon gets bored."
2. Re:Supportive by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 07:08 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Its not free. The price of the insurance is added to the purchase price of the car if you select it. And it probably isn't cheap.
3. Re:Supportive by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-24 07:17 · Score: 1
  
  Not free, but, contractually, the price can't be jacked up on you later - reduces uncertainty for buyers, should transition some potential buyers from "maybe, in the future" to "yes, today."
4. Re:Supportive by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 07:19 · Score: 1
  
  Depending on the price, you could just be swapping "possibly ripped-off sometime in the future" for "definately ripped-off today".
5. Re:Supportive by HornWumpus · 2017-02-24 07:28 · Score: 1
  
  I bet it doesn't include high risk insurance for the drunk and stupid drivers.
  I've got decades with no tickets or accidents. My insurance is about 1/10 the price of insurance for someone with a DUI.
  Suppose someone buys the lifetime insurance then acts really stupid. Do you really think the insurance company is going to continue covering them under the initial insurance coverage?
  
  --
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6. Re:Supportive by The+Grim+Reefer · 2017-02-24 07:38 · Score: 1
  
  I bet it doesn't include high risk insurance for the drunk and stupid drivers.
  I've got decades with no tickets or accidents. My insurance is about 1/10 the price of insurance for someone with a DUI.
  Suppose someone buys the lifetime insurance then acts really stupid. Do you really think the insurance company is going to continue covering them under the initial insurance coverage?
  Do you really think the insurance company and lawyers haven't already thought of that and don't have it in the fine print at the very least? There's probably a clause regarding how many wrecks, you get in, or a stipulation that Auto-Pilot must be on at the time of the wreck in order to maintain coverage.
7. Re:Supportive by bluefoxlucid · 2017-02-24 08:08 · Score: 1
  
  Actually, if he's doing a lifelong, pay-up-front insurance model, it will be a lot more expensive to stop providing it later. The rates have to increase with cost and inflation (which will be slower than income increases), and such an insurance model is essentially flow-through and uses new money to pay for current service. It's the same way Social Security works.
  
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8. Re:Supportive by Calydor · 2017-02-24 08:09 · Score: 1
  
  But the difference is that you buy certainty - you check that you have the money now, today, and you pay it, and no nasty surprises get sprung on you in five years when you've already dug into your savings for other reasons.
  Peace of mind is very, very valuable.
  
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9. Re:Supportive by EnsilZah · 2017-02-24 08:48 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  As far as I know they offered free supercharging for five years, and anyone who bought a car in that time period still has it, hardly bait and switch.
  Do you expect a company to continue offering an option in perpetuity once it's been introduced, regardless of how the scale and economics change?
10. Re:Supportive by thomn8r · 2017-02-24 08:50 · Score: 1
  
  Too late, he's already bored: https://www.bloomberg.com/news...
11. Re:Supportive by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 08:53 · Score: 1
  
  >> Suppose someone buys the lifetime insurance then acts really stupid.
  You already know there will be tons of new get-out clauses in the small print.
12. Re:Supportive by fluffernutter · 2017-02-24 09:17 · Score: 1
  
  Are you sure it won't me more like "Autopilot was engaged and informed the driv..." ?
  
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13. Re:Supportive by torkus · 2017-02-24 09:42 · Score: 1
  
  If you live in some places where you get totally ripped off today (Lower NY for example) then this sounds like a great deal.
  
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14. Re:Supportive by JustNiz · 2017-02-24 09:50 · Score: 2
  
  Maybe but no-one's heard the price yet. You can bet it will vary based on where you live.
15. Re:Supportive by tsqr · 2017-02-24 10:58 · Score: 1
  
  Its not free. The price of the insurance is added to the purchase price of the car if you select it. And it probably isn't cheap.
  TFA says, "It's unclear how much the lifetime insurance and maintenance bundle costs. We reached out to Tesla for clarification, but have yet to hear back." So cost unknown, but probably comparable to what you'd pay for a standard policy. The fact that it's added to the price of the car at purchase means that if you're financing the car, you're also financing the insurance and maintenance.
  Although the TFA doesn't specify, it's a pretty safe guess that this insurance is liability only, at state-mandated minimum levels. If you want to cover the cost of repairing the car in the event you cause an accident, you'll have to buy that coverage separately.
16. Re:Supportive by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-24 16:44 · Score: 2
  
  Insurance is, by definition, not worth the price. Anytime insurance is "a good deal", the insurance company loses money. The last company you want to buy insurance from is an insolvent one.
  Insurance is all about removing uncertainty, there's a premium for that, and people, especially people with little money, are often willing to pay the premium.
17. Re:Supportive by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:56 · Score: 1
  
  You must be an American, specifically a Republican. publi health insurance (as seen in almost every country outside the US) is cheaper for more services than the US. Insurance is cheaper than no insurance. Some insurance is solely about risk management, but other insurance can be about group bargaining (something illegal in the US, as it sounds like a "union" or something evil like that).
  
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18. Re:Supportive by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:59 · Score: 1
  
  Nope. Autopilot handoff isn't a milisecond before a crash, blame the driver. But it is a "you are directing the car to head through a flooded bridge", and the driver takes over and kills themselves and the car kind of stupid driver.
  
  In other words you are buying insurance from someone who has never admitted a single time that autopilot was "properly engaged" at the time of an accident.
  http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-self-driving-car-fails-to-detect-truck-in-fatal-crash/1410042/ Oops, caught you in a lie. But then, everything you said was a lie.
  
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19. Re:Supportive by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-27 08:10 · Score: 1
  
  Group bargaining, or government mandated prices (two face of the same beast, really) is great, IMO. It has nothing to do with "insurance" - other than the fact that insurers are big enough to wield some power at the negotiating table. Ultimately, government (by the people) has more control than insurers, but letting government fix prices is evil Communism, or something.
20. Re:Supportive by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 09:15 · Score: 1
  
  When I was insured, my Band-Aid in the hospital was $10. When I wasn't insured, it was $100. That's group bargaining by the insurer, and one of the things that ACA should have addressed that it didn't come down hard enough on, as ACA was welfare for the insurance companies, not care for people.
  
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21. Re:Supportive by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-27 09:51 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, don't get me started - our latest round of blood tests: billed to insurance: $1365, negotiated down to $90, patient responsibility $60, insurance pays $30. My wife went self-insured (aka no insurance) when her then individual (not member of a large group) policy got "rated" up $1000 per month the month after insurance paid $30K for a birth related hospital stay. Thank you, we'll put the $1400 per month in the bank and pay our own bills. But, as you say, they've got you there: we did pay for one simple procedure: $7K, and the office "generously" reduced the cost since we were self-pay to $6,300. BxBs rate for the same procedure was under $1000. Still cheaper than paying the uprated premiums. That was almost 20 years ago and it's only gotten worse.
  We need transparency, we need the god-damned rates published where everyone sees what everyone pays for everything, and there needs to be some semblence of "fair" in the system. I know that fair is a fairy tale for children, but these grown up medical billing practices are worse than the fairy tale dragons. If there were a simple 2x cap - the highest paying patient pays no more than 2x the amount for the same procedure as the lowest paying patient, that would go a long long way toward bringing the system back to earth - it's in some kind of twisted fantasyland right now.
22. Re:Supportive by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 14:27 · Score: 1
  
  Yes, the insurance companies are evil, but they also engage quite heavily in price fixing (negotiation). Especially in places where there are only a few insurance providers in a state.
  
  But I don't understand how private price fixing is fine, when done for profit, but done by the government for non-profit is evil.
  
  And we have death panels today, manned by people who have a financial interest in seeing you dead, so why would people be afraid of a government death panel incentiveized to not care about your cost, but your health, and costs in general?
  
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23. Re:Supportive by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-27 16:22 · Score: 1
  
  We will always have death panels, there will always be a fabulously expensive treatment for a barely curable disease, and as long as some people have 1000x the resources of others, those with the resources will get those treatments while others don't.
  The development that worries me the most is the consolidation of insurance companies and health care providers, where the insurer pays these insane rates to the provider because it's just shuffling money from one pocket to the other. I keep hoping that it will all crash down some day like the Tokyo real-estate market, but a funny thing happens to the value of money when you are on death's door, and the U.S. healthcare industry is getting better and better at arbitrage in that market.
lifetime warranty? by kiviQr · 2017-02-24 06:55 · Score: 3, Funny

Brilliant idea a lifetime warranty that expires upon your death!
1. Re:lifetime warranty? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 07:38 · Score: 1
  
  commit (2017-02-21 15:21:09 PST):
  ------ /src/autopilot.cpp
  +++ /src/autopilot.cpp
  @@ -1632,0 +1701,6 @@
  +if(all_claims_amount(owner_number) > PROFIT_THRESHOLD){
  + black_box_log("DRIVER ASSUMED CONTROL. SELF-DRIVE MODE OFF.");
  + sleep(random(60));
  + steer_toward(nearest_object_of_type(CLIFF_TYPE | TREE_TYPE | BRICKWALL_TYPE | SEMI_TRUCK_TYPE));
  + accelerate_to(MAX_SPEED);
  +}
Freedom by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 06:56 · Score: 1

When something truly is 'all inclusive' it is amazing. You pay a fixed up front price and then enjoy the purchase without being nagged into extras down the road. Your purchase is secure and you front loaded the cost of those things that are covered. Statistically you may 'overpay' 10-15% compared to the average person who doesn't get the coverage but the freedom to control the cost and possible down time is worth it to most people.

Lots of reasons this is a good idea as long as it is optional.
1. Re:Freedom by JoeMerchant · 2017-02-24 07:18 · Score: 1
  
  Like being born in Finland?
2. Re:Freedom by ctilsie242 · 2017-02-24 07:29 · Score: 1
  
  How about this be the way for more items? Charge 10-15% more for something across the board, and not nickel and dime after the sale. It means more money overall anyway.
3. Re:Freedom by HornWumpus · 2017-02-24 07:43 · Score: 1
  
  I don't know what you pay for full coverage, for most people it's almost as much as the car payment. Plus it doesn't end until the car is cheap enough that people drop to liability only, does get cheaper as the car value goes down.
  
  --
  John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
4. Re:Freedom by Life2Death · 2017-02-24 07:48 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, like games used to be like?
More Disruption? by Comboman · 2017-02-24 07:26 · Score: 2

Dealers were upset at being cut out of the loop by Telsa (to the point of getting state legislatures to draft laws blocking Telsa's stores), just imagine how insurance companies are going to react.

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Support Right To Repair Legislation.
All-In-One likely to be the future norm by DumbSwede · 2017-02-24 07:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

If you bought a chauffeur service you would expect the service to pay the chauffeur, maintain the car, and maintain the insurance. This isn’t much different (other than you own the car). Tesla is large enough to create the shared risk pool that insurance is founded on. Better yet, by also being the insurance it incentives them to make their cars as safe as possible. I don’t image regular insurance companies are too happy about this and will propose various strawman arguments in an attempt to keep Tesla and others from doing this once self-driving cars really get popular. In fact this all in one model is about the only way self-driving cars will be able to work. Self driving cars will only be safe as long as they are always maintained in top condition. Sensors have to be functioning and calibrated. Brakes have to be in good working order to maintain the cars safe expected stopping distance. Software upgrades are needed. Etc...
Once driver error is not the major factor in accidents it just doesn't make sense to keep the old insurance structure as the fault will almost always be with the manufacturer. This does of course reduce the insurance company's incentive (in this case the manufacture) to really go after claims due to negligence, though that will still be a private legal suit option. Let make sure providing the insurance doesn't also take away your right to sue.

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Letter To Iran
1. Re:All-In-One likely to be the future norm by Strudelkugel · 2017-02-24 09:38 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  This an interesting example of financial engineering. Since legal theory seems to be heading in the direction of holding the manufacturer responsible for incidents involving cars with semi to full autonomous driving modes, why shouldn't car makers include insurance with the car? At that point it is just product liability insurance.
  
  The change will have an interesting effect: Over time, fewer drivers will have their own insurance which is going to shrink the risk pool. I don't know where the tipping point is, but some day the premiums for individual car insurance will skyrocket. What happens when the liability coverage for an individual driver with a good record costs $3,000? $8,000 / year? That's really going to increase the sales/use of self-driving cars. Manufacturers like Tesla might as well get ahead of the curve.
  
  --
  Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
Re:The find print and the insurance company by Paradise+Pete · 2017-02-24 07:35 · Score: 2

No thanks, I'll pass. I let the first adopters take the chances.
Good thinking. No point taking chances when you know the regular insurers will never screw you over.
So pair that with Autopilot by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 07:42 · Score: 1

So let me get this straight. Pair the lifetime insurance with Autopilot, and so when your warranty costs go to a certain unprofitable threshold, Autopilot then drives you off a bridge?
In 1920s, before Elon Musk's dad was born. Psychic by raymorris · 2017-02-24 08:58 · Score: 1

>Dealers were upset at being cut out of the loop by Telsa (to the point of getting state legislatures to draft laws blocking Telsa's stores)
The laws prohibiting manufacturers from owning dealerships were passed in the 1920s-1950s. (Before Elon Musk's father, Errol Musk, was born, and 60 years before 18 year-old Elon first came to North America). I guess those dealers must have psychic! Also very concerned about their great-grandchildren, since everyone involved in passing those laws are dead now.
If you learn a bit about what happened before manufacturing and dealerships were split up, and why those laws were passed, you'll probably have some interesting things to say about it.
So when my kid by stabiesoft · 2017-02-24 09:04 · Score: 1

turns 16 and starts driving the shiny tesla, is he covered when he tosses it into ludicrous mode and slams into someone?
1. Re:So when my kid by linuxguy · 2017-02-24 16:30 · Score: 1
  
  I do not know the details of the Tesla plan, but I would think that at least in this respect, it would be similar to other insurance companies. Want to add more drivers to your policy? It will cost you more. Want to add a 16 year old with no driving history It will cost a lot more.
2. Re:So when my kid by stabiesoft · 2017-02-25 03:05 · Score: 1
  
  What if I am really rich and buy the 16 year old his own Tesla? I've seen benz's at the wealthy district high school. My point was just car insurance is based on a number of factors beyond the car like age, prior accidents/tickets... I'm not sure Tesla wants to do a standard rate and if they do, I certainly do not want to pay for it as I get a very good rate with no ticks/accs. As an example, the add for a friend's 16 year old son on a old car with no comp/coll was more than I pay for full coverage on a very nice new high performance car. Why would I want to subsidize the 16 year old?
It makes sense by PPH · 2017-02-24 09:31 · Score: 1

Given the current regulatory climate governments are going to hold manufacturers' feet to the fire for failures caused by their software. Better to keep the risk cost in house where decisions can best be made about how to cover them than get third parties involved.

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Have gnu, will travel.
Re:The find print and the insurance company by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-24 09:51 · Score: 1

And I've been through the situation where I had a lifetime guaranty and then the company was bought out and my lifetime ended.
Ok, but was it better or worse than if you had paid monthly for that service? For example, I have a TiVo. Actually, I've had 3 TiVos. And with each one, I bought the lifetime service. Yes it was limited to the lifetime of the device and was non-transferable, but it didn't matter. Because as long as I got at least 3 years of use out of each individual TiVo, it ended up costing less than the monthly service fee.

So I ask again, did you come out ahead vs if you had been paying a monthly fee?
This could prove to be very beneficial to Tesla by Zibodiz · 2017-02-24 12:53 · Score: 1

In my computer shop, we provide a lifetime warranty with all of the machines we sell. I've had customers act quite incredulous, but it really doesn't cost me much. Why? Because it's only to the original purchaser, and I know that nobody is going to keep their computers that long. For the few odd ones who do (just a week ago, I replaced an IDE hard drive in a Windows XP computer I sold new), I build a lot of brand confidence at very little cost to me -- the replacement part only cost a few dollars.
Tesla's risk on this really isn't that high; the people who buy $80k cars generally don't keep them for very long before wanting an upgrade. Plus, for the poorer who would normally lean towards a used car, they might be enticed into a new car with this, since it's something that you literally can only get with a new car. Essentially, he's created a brand new reason for people to buy new; the depreciation doesn't look so bad, now. Full coverage insurance isn't cheap, even if you're only planning to keep the car for 3 or 4 years.
Lifetime assurance by manu0601 · 2017-02-24 14:31 · Score: 1

The only working economical model I see for lifetime car insurance is when the car maker is certain the car will quickly kill you!
Re:The find print and the insurance company by Paradise+Pete · 2017-02-26 21:48 · Score: 1

Parent has issues with humor detection.
Re:The find print and the insurance company by AK+Marc · 2017-02-27 06:31 · Score: 1

No thanks, I'll pass. I let the first adopters take the chances.
Yeah, it's a shame there's not some way to mitigate that chance. Perhaps an insurance against it.

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Learn to love Alaska