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The US Waged A Secret Cyber War Against North Korean Missiles (tampabay.com)
Early Monday morning North Korea fired four ballistic missiles into the sea of Japan, lending a new urgency to Saturday's revelation from the New York Times of America's "secret cyberwar" with North Korea. Slashdot reader Frosty Piss summarizes its suspected effects succinctly: "Soon after ex-President Obama ordered the secret program three years ago, North Korean missiles began exploding, veering off course, or crashing into the sea."
The Times reports the program was started when Obama "concluded that the $300 billion spent since the Eisenhower era on traditional anti-missile systems...had failed the core purpose of protecting the continental United States," with tests of missile interceptors showing an overall failure rate of at least 56%. But after interviewing government officials, the Times concludes that the U.S. "still does not have the ability to effectively counter the North Korean nuclear and missile programs." Options include escalating the cyber and electronic warfare, trying to negotiate a freeze, asking the Chinese to cut off trade and support, or preparing for direct missile strikes on the launch sites, "which Obama also considered, but there is little chance of hitting every target." The New York Times article concludes: The White House is looking at military options against North Korea, a senior Trump administration official said. Putting U.S. tactical nuclear weapons back in South Korea -- they were withdrawn a quarter-century ago -- is also under consideration, even if that step could accelerate an arms race with the North.
The Times reports the program was started when Obama "concluded that the $300 billion spent since the Eisenhower era on traditional anti-missile systems...had failed the core purpose of protecting the continental United States," with tests of missile interceptors showing an overall failure rate of at least 56%. But after interviewing government officials, the Times concludes that the U.S. "still does not have the ability to effectively counter the North Korean nuclear and missile programs." Options include escalating the cyber and electronic warfare, trying to negotiate a freeze, asking the Chinese to cut off trade and support, or preparing for direct missile strikes on the launch sites, "which Obama also considered, but there is little chance of hitting every target." The New York Times article concludes: The White House is looking at military options against North Korea, a senior Trump administration official said. Putting U.S. tactical nuclear weapons back in South Korea -- they were withdrawn a quarter-century ago -- is also under consideration, even if that step could accelerate an arms race with the North.
Leaking this to make Obama look good was not a good idea.
North Korea.... Nuclear Weapons.... Cyberwar.... Missiles Exploding...
You mean NK has IoT Nuclear Missiles?!? Were toasted....
North Korea appears to be super-unstable right now. The chubby one can't get along with his Chinese masters, and lacks a good understanding of what is important. His underlings don't respect him, understand that the outside world is better (at least, the high-ranking ones do). He keeps them in line by killing them but that doesn't work for very long.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
> "Slashdot reader Frosty Piss summarizes its suspected effects..."
Oh, how I have lived for this day!
The missile flying over Japan's territorial waters sounds scary, until you realize that North Korea has no direct path to international waters, so their long-range ballistic missiles must fly over *someone's* territorial waters. You can't attribute malice to their actions.
China will nuke America if they invade North.
North Korea == Branch of China's military
Sure the ground based systems currently suck. But the ship based systems like Aegis BMD and THAAD work exceptionally well:
Aegis BMD: 33 hits, 6 misses, Success Rate 85%
THAAD: 11 hits, 0 misses, Success Rate 100%
Results links
But then I realized that Kim Jong Un probably doesn't use Twitter.
I stole this Sig
If the US really took control of the NK missiles the best options would have been to let the weapons have a roughly normal path during the tests (so that NK doesn't suspect anything), and, only if there is a real conflict, redirect them to the sea.
Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
Well, waging wars sometimes is the thing you must do when you're the US president, and don't think for a second Mr.Trump will keep his hands free of blood as well.
Since we could already obliterate every square inch of north korea, why would putting nukes in south korea be any different? Sure it might be 20mins faster but why would that matter?
It seems you're attaching an Obama motive to everything, which I assume mirrors Trump's attempt to talk up Obama as the super secret leader preventing Trump taking power.
A quick reality check here, your guy is terrified that his conversations in Trump tower were recorded. US spies in Russia were arrested shortly after he got access to the unredacted pee memos which included the Russian sources names. Those spies Putin had arrest were likely those same sources for the memo. So of course Trump is terrified the FBI recorded his calls, because if he passed the names of those spies to the Russians, then he's guilty of espionage against the USA.
So did Obama order him spied on? Well there would be a classified FISA order that Trump could declassify if it existed. And he hasn't declassified any such order, so his tweet is either totally false, or he's committing espionage by revealing existance of a classified order.
Except of course the FBI deny such an order exists, and the Rubio says there was no such order, and Trumps own spokesman saying they won't say anything else about it unless Congress orders and investigation.... i.e. they have nothing to back it up. So we know by the lack of Trump's arrest he's just lying yet again.
It's fun watching a president implode, but really, trying to save him with partisan rhetoric won't fix the problem. If you're a Republican, then clearly Pence is your man, and Congress do not need to impeach the vice President if they choose not to. They can simply impeach Trump, and we move on and forget this abberation. Pence can be the grownup who takes Trump's place and we put this mess into the past.
Apparently he wants to meet Trump. One interpretation is that he is firing missiles in hopes of getting a better negotiated deal (which is something the North Koreans have done in the past).
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Stop buying Western networking equipment and build deeper bases.
How to keep the NSA out of your networks? Stop buying Western computer networks. The spies are following that modernisation of different networks deep into the nation.
China knew it was been watched by the NSA and GCHQ. So it took great efforts to hide its tests and production from the 1960's on.
All the West can do is sail around a nations waters, use flights and satellites. The ability to run spies in most nations is an art that has been lost.
So all effort is been put into exporting faulty and altered computer and wireless equipment.
That new super computer is not just a super computer, its a new network into the nation.
Every advance product on the market has been networked or is a trap altered during shipment.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Not a secret anymore - way to go NY times..
It's indeed possible. If we look at Trump, he likes to start negotiations with extreme positions. For example, he started with Russia by dismissing the START treaty and talking about greatly increasing the US nuclear power.
This is just in: Obama hacked the UK Trident nuke missiles!!
We're all gonna die!!!
Russia deployed a spy ship off Delware, while Trump was defending Flynn's ties to Russia.
Russia violated the medium range missile ban, Trump was attacking Netanyahu as deflection at the time.
It's interesting spin to link Trumps whishlist item of a massive nuclear buildup, to Russia, as though its for use against Russia, or a negotiating tactic with Russia, but no such negotiation exists and no such tough line against Russia exists.
Or leak a story that says the US has been hacking North Korean missiles and causing them to fail. Then sit back and watch the North Koreans work overtime to find the security holes and/or arresting suspected traitors, slowing down their missile program.
When Godzilla arises from the nuclear sludge off the reactor meltdown in Japan, the monster will head for North Korea and pinch the head off of Kim Jong Un. OR we can get serious about developing cyber and physical weapons to deter this bad haircut clown. In fact if we were really talented we could manipulate the missile to turn around and land on top of him. Then blame him for the bad design.
Why, that's completely UN-Presidented!
Citations needed please.
It's ok, I'll wait.
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
By supporting this despotic regime for more than half a century, the Chinese will have to accept the deployment of a (more advanced) missile defense system (THAAD). While I'm sure they're going to retaliate against the South Koreans (and America?) possibly through a boycott and diplomatic sanctions, the South Koreans may have no choice but to try to improve their defenses. If you were faced with a nuclear attack wouldn't you be willing to suffer a bit economically in order to get a better defense?
Of course if the Chinese push too far or the North Koreans convince the South that their defenses are useless then we may see the worst possible outcome for the Chinese (and probably everyone); South Korea will build the bomb. This is different from the U.S. having some tactical nukes place in South Korea but presumably under control of the U.S.; a S. Korean nuke will make it very clear to North Korea that if they bomb Seoul that North Korea will be completely and utterly wiped out. It won't matter to the South if the North can strike the U.S., they won't care. Of course there's a very good chance that once both Koreas have the bomb that Japan will quickly follow suit, 2000 years of animosity isn't forgotten that easily. This will greatly complicate China's domination of Asia because they'll always have to worry about a catastrophic (even if suicidal) conflict with their formerly vassal states. For example, if China and Japan then got into a serious dispute over the Sendoku islands the whole world would hold its breath.
One of the reasons why this is coming to a head now is that North Korea realizes that South Korea is without an effective government. The president has been impeached and is awaiting a ruling from the high court to make it official. In the meantime, the interim leader doesn't have the political capital to make big decisions without the mandate of an election. So North Korea is pushing and pushing and is trying to see what it can get. Unfortunately for them (and everyone) the only person they could negotiate with is someone who's grasp of the truth is tenuous and he is erratic to put it mildly (especially at 3am, twitter time). So there's a giant game of chicken being played blindfolded.
If the American missile defenses were reliable then perhaps this could all be avoided; the North Koreans could threaten all they want but a nuclear warhead couldn't make it to American soil. This was the essence of the American position; the Americans realized it's much harder to intercept short range missile/cruise missile attacks traveling the 50km from North Korea to downtown Seoul (2 min. flight time). So despite the nice visuals of Patriot missiles hitting Scuds, the U.S. told the South that when (not if) North Korea could nuke Seoul, we'd retaliate for you with our nukes. That capability kept the North from having a real threat. Now however, the thought that the U.S. would retaliate for South Korea becomes less credible when North Korea can then (in theory) take out Los Angeles or Washington D.C. Everyone realizes this, so if the North gains a credible ICBM capability and if the U.S. lacks a credible defense, the American guarantee is gone and South Korea is left to the wolves (North Korea). Hence the panic over the inadequacies of the American missile defense/desire for better local defense.
Returning the subject of this article, the reason why the American defenses don't work (reliably) comes down to simple physics. My physics professor at Harvard was one of the ten(?) members of the scientific commission evaluating Ronald Reagan's "Star Wars" missile defense system. (Having been given top secret clearance he told me about a trip he had to the Groton, Connecticut sub base into the bowels of one of the "boomers" (SLBM subs) where he was led into a giant space with huge tubes running from floor to ceiling. The admiral escorting him turned to him and said, "Professor Horowitz, you're in the same room as a 200 H-bombs". He told me that basically the problem of hitting a bullet
Look at this from the position of Kim Jong Un, what will he think, how will he react ?
Will he not view this as more evidence of USA aggression ? Won't this just feed his paranoia ? I would have some sympathy with Kim Jong Un if he were to scream about provocation from the USA. It seems to me very much like prodding a hornets' nest with a stick. It would be foolish to think that any action like this would remain undiscovered forever.
I am not saying that I like North Korea having nukes, but neither do I like the USA, UK, Russia, France, China, Israel, India, Pakistan having them but, somehow, those states having them is seen as not so bad - although some of their leaders are not the sort of character who I would like to have in charge of a nuclear button.
The US are a bunch of hypocrites, bitching at other countries for cyberwar, but itself having one of the largest outfits in cyberwar.. Bitching at other countries for wanting to create their own nuclear weapons, but itself having the largest depot and even creating new ones..
If the US has nuclear weapons than any country is entitled to their own (that doesn't mean I like countries like NK or Iran having nuker, but they have just as much right to them as the US).
If the US wants other countries not to have specific weapons they should dismantle their own at a much faster pace, and not create new better ones or expand their arsenal..
Apparently while they were whining about china doing it, they were busy doing it to everyone else. Hypocrites.
Please leave this kind of cyber waffle to Faux News.
from US invasion. FFS, what the hell do you think US possession AND INCREASE OF YIELDS in nuke arsenal is if not malice??? How about Russian tests of their missiles, hmm? At least the GP is being consistent, you're just being a partisan arsehole.
therefore your claim is just your projection on what you want to caricature as happening so that you feel better. IOW you're being a moronic twat making shit up.
I actually have some hope for North Korea. Kim Jong Un seems to want chinese-style modernization of the country, with gradually increasing economic and civil liberties. In maybe 20-30 years, North Korea could be where China is today. Sure that's not very good compared to western democracies, but it's far better that the nuclear-armed stalinist hellhole that is North Korea today.
A military attack on North Korea would be a far worse option than allowing them to develop. A collapse of the country would create millions of refugees and lots of advanced, and maybe nuclear, weapons would become availble on the black market.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/08/china-north-korea-kim-jong-un
How many governments did they change compared to the USA, hmm? If you want to push such a weaksauce version of equivalent invasion, the USA must be somewhere over 40, excluding repeats.
[the U.S. "still does not have the ability to effectively counter the North Korean nuclear and missile programs."] If they do not know that an umbrella is sufficient to counter the North Korean nuclear and missile programmes they should be sacked. The North Koreans cannot get their missiles to reach a target 20 miles away.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
agreed .....they utterly failed then this last test to do shit....
sounds more like NK getting guidance systems right, rather then yankie piss cyber whatever, last i heard there cyber and nsa are bleeding people, no one wants to work for a bunch a peeping toms
against a north korean missile.
the last test landed 300KM from japan check a map ...thats a fair bit longer then 20KM ROFL
For citations, please send the nature of your request, along with a stamped, self-addressed envelope to:
Hilllary Clinton c/o Occupant
2446 Belmont Rd NW
Washington, DC
20008
Allow 4 to 6 weeks for delivery.
Specifically, what could affect NK's rudimentary missile electronics that much? Embargo vacuum tubes?
For those of you reading, these are some follow up thoughts to my previous comments "China is reaping what it sowed".
The U.S. is facing a decision of historic proportions. I'm sure the Pentagon has told the Donald that within a year or two, maybe less, North Korea will have an ICBM with a nuclear warhead capable of reaching much of the United States. Not since the Cuban missile crisis has the U.S. faced such a dangerous AND unpredictable threat (the Cuban missile crisis, while not as unpredictable because the Soviets were apparently a lot more "sane", was more dangerous because the weapons were located much closer with presumably much more powerful warheads).
So there is a really big INCENTIVE for the U.S. to take out the ability for North Korea to take the final steps to this capability BEFORE they get this capability. I'm sure they would also more or less permanently reduce North Korea's nuclear infrastructure to rubble (it took many decades of deprivation to get to where they are, presumably with heightened awareness the Chinese won't be quite so accommodating to their attempts to rebuild the bomb). Perhaps the U.S. will also try to take out the top of the North Korean government, it would be easy enough to say a bomb went astray (as if any justification was necessary).
Unfortunately there may also be a really big COST if the U.S. does not completely wipe out all the bombs (and other weapons of mass destruction, as NK has shown, they have produced at least minute quantities of the deadliest chemical weapon known to the public, VX). There's a chance that, the Dear Leader will see he will have a very limited lifetime left surrounded by those around him who want him dead (because he killed off so many of his "enemies") that is if he isn't dead already from the strike against the nukes. The only thing that protects him now is his aura of power from threatening the U.S. and S. Korea with his nukes; without them he's just another dictator.
So, if he knows he's going to die, he might just try to take as many with him as possible, not from the U.S., but from its capitalist lackeys. S. Korea and Japan. If he's got any nukes left there's (I think) a much better chance he'd be able get them through the defenses surrounding Seoul than across the Pacific to L.A. As I mentioned, it's less than 50km to Seoul from the North Korean border, that's only 1-2 minutes ballistic missile flight time. Or he could use a low flying drone/fighter/helicopter to evade radar. Or he could put it on one of the mini-subs that every now and then are found prowling around S. Korean waters. Or maybe send it via diplomatic carrier (I don't know if this'll work in S. Korea, maybe Japan). Or maybe just explode one at the border along with a few tons of radioactive waste left over from processing; the fallout would be a great radiological weapon (think Fukushima but if it happened near Tokyo).
The problem here for the U.S. and South Korea is that while the incentives are all for the U.S. to conduct a pre-emptive strike, the costs are (almost) all borne by South Korea (and maybe Japan). This would be the time when the U.S. and South Korea really need to stand together as one and present a united front to their opponent so that IF a strike was made, preparations ranging from an immediate paratrooper assault on Pyongyang to prevent a counter-strike to getting people into shelters. Unfortunately as I mentioned before, South Korea is leaderless and would likely follow any such dramatic decision with great hesitation if at all.
This is what North Korea is counting on, that's why they're pushing now. The real wild card is what will the mercurial President of the United States; who said to the campaign that "he would make South Korea (and Japan) be responsible for their own defense" to some more recent comments he made (I think so far only to the Japanese) that the alliance was rock solid. Unfortunately the orange haired one may have the reputation of being somewhat of a paper tiger after he challenged the Chin
...of patiently waiting for NK nukes to reach the west coast and finally react.
Might want to consider a different source of news. CNN isn't doing you any favors and only makes you look like an uninformed idiot.
"Early Monday morning North Korea fired four ballistic missiles into the sea of Japan"
At least they managed to pick a target they could actually hit.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
I stopped reading after that.
I suggest to any interested parties that they read Victor Cha's book "The Impossible State: North Korea, Past and Future". Cha worked for a lot of different US administrations in dealing with North Korea and having actually been there and participated in negotiations, he has an insider's look at things.
Basically, China has more influence than they are willing to use, but not as much as outsiders think. China paid a real price in blood to defend the North in the Korean War. One of Mao's own sons was killed in the conflict, although if you look up the information about this, you may realize that he put himself in jeopardy when it happened. China seems to have used what I will call a brute force approach to the war after entering it, but simply throwing huge amounts of soldiers into battle and suffering horrific casualties, but winning enough ground to push UN forces back about to the current dividing line. Even though the vast majority of the Chinese Communist Party leadership either were kids when this happened or not born yet, the CCP does still like to bring this up. They still drill into school children in China about how Mao himself lost a son in the conflict.
The Soviet Union and China had been vying for position and influence in North Korea and Kim Il Sung was a master of playing them off each other. In fact, the whole reason they have nuclear weapons is because the Soviet Union gave them their reactors and the technical know-how that led to them developing the weapon. When the Soviet Union collapsed, Boris Yeltsin immediately cut off all aid to North Korea, leaving China to look around and sort of say "What just happened?" China picked up the slack in terms of providing aid. Some of this is because of the shared legacy of the Korean War. A lot of it is that China benefits big time from North Korea's existence. North Korea has a lot of rare earth deposits which China gets at a huge discount for helping them. And as North Korea borders a Chinese province with a very large ethnic Korean population (China took it by force from an old Korean kingdom almost 800 years ago), China fears that if the North Korean government collapses, there will be a humanitarian crisis and tons of illegal immigrants will flee into China in desperation. China is telling the truth when they say they want stability in the peninsula and when they say they want it denuclearized, but China sees the status quo as totally in their favor and views all changes as bad outcomes for China, so there are real limits as how far they will push things. Here's what China fears if North Korea collapses.
1) A huge influx of refugees will cross the border, causing China to have to spend large amounts of resources to feed and house them and it will take away from using these resources to keep their own population in check.
2) International aid organizations will likely demand access to China to help, which China doesn't want.
3) North Korea's nuclear weapons could end up in South Korea's hands, which China doesn't want.
4) A united Korea would definitely be a US ally. It could be that instead of the US leaving, that the US ends up having military bases in the former North Korea and thus are right on China's doorstep.
5) China will no longer get North Korean rare earths at a bargain price. In fact, there may be so much resentment towards China for helping to prop up the North Korean government that those rare earths go anywhere but China.
China realizes that eventually the North Korean state will collapse. But they hope to push that date as far into the future as possible as, like I said, they view all post-North Korean outcomes as very bad for them. Note too that China is very good at the duplicity game of telling outside countries that they need to do something which China itself is unwilling to do. I get that they don't like THADD going to South Korea, and personally I think that sending it there should never have been made public, but their lack of interest in really turning the screws on North Korea has led to this and they seem unwilling to accept their own responsibility here.
If the failure rate is at least 56% for missile interception, why not just launch more interceptors? I am surprised that success rate is even that high frankly. It's possible that failure rate already includes using saturation, in which case forget I asked this.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity
T's gonna be removed from office by a bolt of lightning, with the side effect of setting his pants on fire.
Shit's gonna be kray and lead to a resurgence in real religious piety in America.
You are thinkink I maek joek...
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
The bigger issue is that Japan is Japan, and the Japanese have been conquering their neighbors millennia after millennia. The animosity towards Japan is such that if the military Empire of Japan re-emerged it is (IMHO) very possible that Tawian (ROC), China (PRC), DPRK, and ROK will all drop their current issues and actually work together. It's a bigger and more ingrained fear than what most of Europe has towards Germany.
If Japan builds nuclear weapons, the possibility of Japan's society going from passive to militant becomes that much more worrisome. Japan also has self justifying experiences to use in it's defense ("We survived being nuked, what's the issue?"). It's current passiveness policy is not the norm over its history.
That argument holds no water. What was, doesn't have to be. Europe has waged wars across the globe for millenia too. Greece was once a world power. France and Germany were often embroiled in wars with their neighbors lasting decades. Britain once had so many colonies they spanned the whole globe. None of that is relevant to the now.
Right now, Japan is faced with a severe population aging problem and their economy is entirely tied with the region and the world. They have no interest in declaring a war unless provoked or forced.
Trump was attacking Netanyahu as deflection at the time.
You misspelled Obama. Trump and Netanyahu get along famously.
Countries do not have any "rights" at all. None, zero, zip, nil.
Countries have self interests and varying levels of power. Nothing more.
Might makes right on the international stage.
In the case of the US, we have tremendous military, economic, political/diplomatic, and cultural power that covers the globe. If the US doesn't like you then your country -will- be a shithole. Note that every single country on the planet we consider an enemy is a third world banana republic crap house. Every single one.
The opposite is also true. We like Europe. Europe is doing great, minus self inflicted wounds like their insane immigration and anti-democracy pro-globalist united Europe policies. Canada is doing super fabulous. Mexico doing as well as a super basket case country can do. And so on. But nearby with similar resources, Venezuelans can't buy food or medicine.
The US has the power. That makes us right. The world has always been that way, bigger dogs eating littler dogs.
The way I look at Japan, they are like are friend who got drunk and made a stupid mistake. Some people vomit all over the carpet, others try to conquer the world. You know, small difference. So we're just staying with them until they can sober up and not vomit all over the place. South Korea is the same way, except they're the roommate that got vomited on, and now they're trying to kill the roommate who did it. Calm down, calm.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
As a guy who wants to be protected by all the tax dollars we are putting into defense (and some knowledge about missile defense):
I would REALLY rather hit one of those things with SOMETHING other than a virus or a bug.
This is like trying to "protect" yourself from an invasion by having the street signs point in false directions once an invasion happens.
Nice, but not enough.
If the United States had any control over those missiles at all, they would have redirected them towards a US ally then use it as a pretense / excuse for a military strike. I guarantee the plans are already in place, targets have been pre-selected and the whole thing is ready to go at a moments notice.
A legitimate excuse is all that is needed to get things started.
Since China refuses to reign in their local idiot, it's only a matter of time before a cruise missile does.