IEEE-USA Criticizes Failure To Reform The H-!B Program (ieee.org)

Slashdot reader Tekla Perry writes: IEEE USA says H-1B visas are a tool used to avoid paying U.S. wages. "For every visa used by Google to hire a talented non-American for $126,000, ten Americans are replaced by outsourcing companies paying their H-1B workers $65,000," says the current IEEE USA president, writing with the past president and president-elect. The outsourcing companies, Infosys, Cognizant, Wipro, and Tata Consultancy in 2014 "used 21,695 visas, or more than 25 percent of all private-sector H-1B visas used that year. Microsoft, Google, Facebook, and Uber, for comparison, used only 1,763 visas, or 2 percent," they say.
On Friday, IEEE-USA also issued a new criticism about the lack of progress in reforming the H-1B program, saying "At least 50,000 Americans will lose their jobs this year because the president has yet to fulfill the promise he made to millions who voted for him."

Comments

Typo in the title

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to even RTFS to reach the first typo.

Re:Typo in the title

[Anonymous Coward]

It does look weird but I'm pretty sure that's just the way Americans spell "criticise".

How about the spelling of the identifier H-1B?

H-!B is a perfectly correct usage of the 'pencil' grading system. It's referring to immigrants who are hard but not black.

Re:Typo in the title

[CaptainDork]

Here's my racist comment:

I'd like to do Danica Patrick

Re: Typo in the title

[Type44Q]

What are they teaching school kids in Oklahoma these days?

1. In Oklahoma, most people are literally so ignorant that they believe the word "ignorant" actually means "belligerent"

2. Most Oklahomans ("Okies") think cinder blocks are called center blocks (of course, if they could read the label at Lowe's or Home Depot, this might not be a problem)

3. When someone would say "heighth," I'd be tempted to ask "You mean like "weighth?"

4. Had to enroll one of the gf's kids in a new elementary school during the middle of the year; imagine our surprise when the teacher sent home a flyer on Feb 13st... announcing Valentime's Day- "What time is it?" "Valentime's."

Re: Typo in the title

[Tulsa_Time]

What are they teaching school kids in Oklahoma these days?

1. In Oklahoma, most people are literally so ignorant that they believe the word "ignorant" actually means "belligerent"

2. Most Oklahomans ("Okies") think cinder blocks are called center blocks (of course, if they could read the label at Lowe's or Home Depot, this might not be a problem)

3. When someone would say "heighth," I'd be tempted to ask "You mean like "weighth?"

4. Had to enroll one of the gf's kids in a new elementary school during the middle of the year; imagine our surprise when the teacher sent home a flyer on Feb 13st... announcing Valentime's Day- "What time is it?" "Valentime's."

And I am the ignorant hateful person ?

All I said is it is a racist statement to accuse our president of using the H1b program to acquire more foreign wives...

Re: Typo in the title

[Type44Q]

Hate, huh? I don't suppose you'd be willing - much less able - to point out how these are anything but neutral, objective observations?

The Question

[drinkypoo]

HB, or H not B. That is the question

Re:The Question

[ChromeAeonium]

B, or not a B? That is the question.

Re:The Question

[lsatenstein]

Stopping the H1-B program will do nothing. The people come over to learn your job and then return home where the cost of living is in line with their salary.

So, how do you stop the export of jobs to India and other countries? Can you, if the employer opens his on subsidiary in that country.

Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

Genuine question here. Companies are supposed to hire local people if they are available and H1Bs only when there are no qualified locals. The question is:

Have any of you ever been hired instead of an H1B because you are local? Have you ever heard of a situation where a company wanted to hire an H1B but ended up having to hire a local person instead because of this requirement?

In my experience, the idea that H1Bs only get hired if there are no locals available is complete fiction. Has anyone ever seen this rule help a local person get a job instead of an H1B?

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Junta]

If they want to do it, they can do it.

So company A wants to downsize and replace with cheaper workers. If a company get H1Bs, then very shortly lays off people, then it's a flag.

So instead they outsource to company B. So far, they are playing by the rules. Company B has bid to provide the work cheaper than doing it in house.

Now company B says "I need some talent, I don't have enough staff', then *they* can claim there are no available local talent for what they need (for some *very* narrow definition, like 'software programmer ii' or something). They don't have layoffs to explain. When they are not your existing employees, it's easier to try to paint the labor market as somehow not applicable to the positions.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

That's why the requirement to hire locals first seems to be largely fictional. Companies hire who they want to hire, not who they don't.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Example:
Feb 2016
“Hertz is reportedly bound to lay off more than 250 IT professionals as the U.S. car rental company is outsourcing its IT service to IBM. Hertz says the deal will help it cut costs, free up resources, and focus on its core business. ...
According to Computer World, IBM’s Indian subsidiary has filed paperwork for numerous H-1B workers for a property in Oklahoma City. The property belongs to Hertz Technologies Inc., a Hertz subsidiary, says the tech magazine while citing government records."

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

Understood. Any real counter-examples though? Any examples of companies breaking the rules and facing enforcement actions? Is "hire locals first" 25% fictional, or 80% fictional, or 99.9% fictional?

The "hire locals first" rule keeps getting brought up to defend the H1B program. I'd like to know how phony that argument is: partly, mostly, or entirely phony.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[hawguy]

Genuine question here. Companies are supposed to hire local people if they are available and H1Bs only when there are no qualified locals. The question is:

Have any of you ever been hired instead of an H1B because you are local? Have you ever heard of a situation where a company wanted to hire an H1B but ended up having to hire a local person instead because of this requirement?

In my experience, the idea that H1Bs only get hired if there are no locals available is complete fiction. Has anyone ever seen this rule help a local person get a job instead of an H1B?

My company always searches for local candidates and candidates in this country before looking for H1-B's -- hiring an H1B worker is hard, you have to interview them, decide to hire them, *then* wait month(s) to see if you can actually get them a visa. We've lost some really good candidates that either weren't able to get an H1-B in the lottery, or they just got tired of waiting for it to come through and they took a job locally.

Used as it's meant, the H1-B program is very valuable to american businesses and workers -- it helps businesses succeed by giving them the talent they need to start grow. My company was started by a team of 5 - one was an H1-B holder, 3 others were green card holders who previously held H1-B's (those three have since become US citizens), we've now grown to around 250 people, I think around 20% of our engineering team is made up of H1-B workers (all PhD's from well known schools, with degrees in the domain my company specializes in). We have a strong college recruitment program, traveling to about a half dozen USA colleges a year, but we can't find the senior staff we need from American universities alone. Due to my work on our HR system, I can verify that they are paid comparably to our american workers (not even taking into account the higher hiring costs due to the cost to get the visa, relocation costs, etc)

Without the H1-B program, I doubt this company would have ever been founded, or if it was, it would have been based in Europe where most of the founders were from. In fact, we're scouting around for a European office due to the uncertainty in the H1-B program, so we may curtail hiring in the USA as we build up a European engineering team.

Re: Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

I've never heard of anyone following the rules. Could you elaborate on this happening at "small companies"?

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

But that's not the question. Did you ever want to hire a specific H1B for a position, but you had to hire a local person instead? That's the question.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[hawguy]

But that's not the question. Did you ever want to hire a specific H1B for a position, but you had to hire a local person instead? That's the question.

Doesn't this answer the question:

My company always searches for local candidates and candidates in this country before looking for H1-B's

So, no I've never seen a case here where we found an H1-B candidate before we searched for (and didn't find) an American candidate. Jobs are always posted internally before they are opened up to outside candidates, and we won't consider an H1-B candidate if we have a suitable American candidate, and we give preference to candidates living in the local area.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[sgt_doom]

The federal regulation is that there can be NO oversight on the visa program --- that's right, it is illegal for the federal gov't to monitor the work visa program (see either the federal regs, or read Michelle Malkin's book, Sold Out --- and yes, I realize she is or was a conservative, but this book is definitely not in that realm).

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

So you would agree that the legal requirement to hire locals instead of H1Bs is essentially fictional in your case? Because that's just not how the hiring process works?

I'm in favor of H1Bs too (with some critically needed reforms).

But I don't like being told "there's a legal requirement to hire locals first" because it's disingenuous -- companies hire who they want, not who they don't want. I want to tell those people who make that argument to be more truthful and to make genuine arguments, not phony ones. And I want to be correct when I say it, hence the question.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

And no, statements about "searches" aren't really what I'm looking for. Designing a "search" with the objective to find zero "qualified" candidates is trivially easy.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[m00sh]

Genuine question here. Companies are supposed to hire local people if they are available and H1Bs only when there are no qualified locals. The question is:

Have any of you ever been hired instead of an H1B because you are local? Have you ever heard of a situation where a company wanted to hire an H1B but ended up having to hire a local person instead because of this requirement?

In my experience, the idea that H1Bs only get hired if there are no locals available is complete fiction. Has anyone ever seen this rule help a local person get a job instead of an H1B?

When there are multiple applications for a job, we only interview H1Bs if there is no local US person applying who seem qualified.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[MobyDisk]

You have the hiring process backward.

Have you ever heard of a situation where a company wanted to hire an H1B but ended up

You will never see a job posting that says:

Position: SOFTWARE ENGINEER
Requirements:
5 years of D++
2 years using WGF and Visual Baloney
Experience with Libux a bonus
Must be an H1B

So if companies are exclusively looking for H1B applications, they will not make it apparent that they are doing so.

Have any of you ever been hired instead of an H1B because you are local?

How would the applicant know? They don't get any insight into the other potential hires.

In general, there are 2 kinds of companies hiring H1Bs. The one type is contracting companies looking for massive cheap labor, so they just take the cheapest people. The other type is just looking for skilled contractors, and they don't care if they are H1B or citizens or what. Those companies pick the best applicant regardless of H1B status. It would only matter if it was a tie, because the H1B would be more of a pain to deal with. But in reality, ties don't happen. I've interviewed hundreds of software engineers, and never the team of interviewers not had reason to sway one direction or the other. Also, the interview team is generally not told if the person is an H1B applicant, and we don't care. I've also never had a manager say "Well, you chose candidate X, but I will actually hire candidate Y." If so, I might suspect a preference for the visa, or some salary negotiation thing went on. But so far I guess I've worked for honest people at honest companies.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[clay_buster]

When there are multiple applications for a job, we only interview H1Bs if there is no local US person applying who seem qualified.

I've never worked at a place where that was true. Generally a company creates an opening. Then they filter folks for some short period of time to meet the requirements. Then we spend the next 6 months interviewing only H1-Bs.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[sodul]

It is starting to happen ... I've seen recruiters in India reaching out to me for local Silicon Valley jobs. Considering 80% of the local recruiters reaching out to me don't even seem to have read my Resume/Profile, I cannot imagine how someone in a different continent can understand the roles. If the hiring company is too cheap to use recruiters in the US, how much do you think they will be willing to pay, and then how long before they send your job offshore? No, thank you.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

When there are multiple applications for a job, we only interview H1Bs if there is no local US person applying who seem qualified.

Say you interview 2 locals and decide neither one is a good fit. Are you saying you wouldn't go on to interview an H1B candidate after that because you can't hire an H1B for a position that locals have applied for?

I doubt it. But I'm looking for more info to either confirm or refute my doubts.

I don't think companies hire a local who is an 80% fit for a position over an H1B who is an 85% or 90% fit -- unless they can't get the H1B for other reasons. But if I'm wrong about that, I'd like to know.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

Those companies pick the best applicant regardless of H1B status. It would only matter if it was a tie, because the H1B would be more of a pain to deal with. But in reality, ties don't happen.

This is what makes the argument that "companies are legally required to hire locals first and H1Bs only when there are no locals available" a phony argument. It's just not how it works.

I'm looking for counter-examples. So far, none. Companies hire who they want. Legal requirements just add time and paperwork but don't really change the outcome.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[thegarbz]

Have any of you ever been hired instead of an H1B because you are local?

If companies are looking to hire H1Bs you won't hear about the opening. Either they will do some obscure worthless job hunting in some obscure place to prove their point to the government, or they will outsource it to firms specialising in H1B recruitment where the job descriptions are not at all related to the actual jobs.

Either way you won't ever be in a position to be hired.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[LinuxIsGarbage]

My impression from hawguy's post is that most of the H1Bs are from Europe (I'm assuming Western Europe). These workers would at least have similar salary expectations as American workers, and not part of the "Hire cheap Indians" for which the H1B program is abused for. They are not the problem.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[GlennC]

In my experience, it's 99.999% fictional.

The H-1B program is almost always used to replace local workers with lower-paid imported contractors. The next step is for the work to be sent offshore.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

The companies that I have worked for haven't used them that way. But there's no way a local could ever be hired for a position instead of an H1B if they'd already decided to hire the H1B. They decide on the person they want and then go through an exercise of pretending the job is open to locals. After keeping up the pretense for a while, they hire the H1B.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

I'm just trying to prove or disprove "companies can't hire an H1B over a local". Because I don't like phony arguments. So far there's not a single example of an H1B losing out to a local because of this requirement.

I'd like to see more "unqualified" applicants get a chance in the US. Many people are capable of doing great work that they can't get hired to do because they don't meet the qualifications.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[hawguy]

And no, statements about "searches" aren't really what I'm looking for. Designing a "search" with the objective to find zero "qualified" candidates is trivially easy.

I don't know if you've ever done recruiting, but it's very time consuming, we don't search for a candidate if we're not looking for one.

When I say we search for a local candidate, we do a legitimate search, bring candidates in for interviews (flying them in if they are from out of area), and then if we don't find someone locally, we'll start interviewing potential H1-B's. If there's a qualified American candidate, there's no reason to take an H1-B over him (or her) -- it's not like we're saving any money with H1-B's -- the highly qualified individuals we hire know the market and won't let us undercut them on salary.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

we don't search for a candidate if we're not looking for one.

I've seen it happen though. A manager will decide they want to hire a specific person. But that person has a visa issue. So they go through the motions of pretending to search before they can hire the person they already decided to hire.

When I say we search for a local candidate, we do a legitimate search, bring candidates in for interviews (flying them in if they are from out of area), and then if we don't find someone locally, we'll start interviewing potential H1-B's. If there's a qualified American candidate, there's no reason to take an H1-B over him (or her) -- it's not like we're saving any money with H1-B's -- the highly qualified individuals we hire know the market and won't let us undercut them on salary.

It would be cool if some Americans got the opportunity to improve their positions sometimes. That would mean hiring someone who was only somewhat "qualified" and letting them learn the rest on the job. HR people and recruiters seem to oppose this and use "qualifications" to favor bringing in H1Bs.

I've seen 2 reasons for companies actually preferring H1Bs in my industry:

1. It's a good cultural fit because everyone else is/was an H1B. The Americans are too alien and don't fit in as well.
2. H1Bs can't quit without jeopardizing their residency status. So the company doesn't have to treat them as well as Americans or permanent residents. The company can ask them to work extra long hours or to live in a small apartment in San Jose rather than in the house they could afford to live in anywhere else in the US.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Darinbob]

You never hear what the company "wants" to hire. They don't announce this. You are not told why you did not get the job or why you did get it.

As a rule, nobody wants to hire anyone that needs extensive training first. Not even an H1-B employee. So to get those jobs you must be above average, provide skills that are not commodity skills, make yourself invaluable. If you show up and say "I have a certificate, just like millions of other people" don't expect special consideration be made just because you're local.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[jopsen]

In my experience, the idea that H1Bs only get hired if there are no locals available is complete fiction.

The requirement isn't fictional, and there are lots of legitimate companies like Google and Facebook that hires H1Bs in the Bay Area because there is no other work force available, much less any highly skilled work force. Naturally, if Google wants to have the best engineers in the world, then a large potion of them have to be imported.

That said, yeah, there likely is a problem with the enforcement... But isn't that systemic to the US? Do you expect justice if you have no money? Do you expect the police to use minimum force necessary? Do you expect health care for the poor?

I'm not American and I'm for all those things, just saying it seems like you need to fight the screw-the-poor mentality you have in the US. Rather than focusing on specifics... but good luck with that considering the "bravery" of your fellow voters :)

Re:Locals preferred ?

[sodul]

I never heard such nonsense. The definition of resident for tax purposes is different, than for immigration purposes, and an H1-B is not exempt from paying federal taxes. A long time ago, when I was on the J-1 program, I was exempted from social security withholdings and my taxes were rather very low since I was only an intern. As soon as I 'upgraded' to the H1-B status I had to pay full taxes like everyone else. I'm not even sure that a former H1-B is entitled to receive money from Social Security at retirement age if he left the country. Now ... if the H1-B left the country before he stayed 6 months during the given tax year ... then yeah I guess you could say that he could save on taxes, is there a spike of H1-Bs leaving in the weeks/days before July 1st each year? In any case if you leave the country after 6 months to avoid paying taxes, it is not trivial to come back.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[Kohath]

If no company ever had to hire a local person when they wanted to hire an H1B instead, the requirement is fictional.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[rtb61]

I do not understand the gullibility of US workers, seriously WTF? The rule should be hire locals first than if none are available THAN YOU FUCKING TRAIN THEM!!! Seriously what the fuck is the matter with you guys, not guts, no genitals, please sir may I have another, what the fuckity fuck fucking fuck. No one available, then pay to train them, user pays, what is wrong with you people. As the corporations demand from you, so you demand from the fucking corporations.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[EmptyHead]

Unless you're company is based on translating foreign languages or something else that requires a foreign background, I call B.S. I've been all over the world, the schools are crap compared to ours, the graduates are equally poor. Of course, the top 10 percent or so might be able to recover from their unfortunate past through hard work and years of experience. The H-1Bs I've had the misfortune of working with in the States are not of this elite cadre. I'm sure they exist, maybe your group has some of them. I suspect you're just trolling with pro-H1B garbage though. If we did this to your county we'd be sent out ASAP. If the talent is really needed, then they should be getting paid much more than the imaginary hapless USA retards that the H-1B B.S. system is pretending to be fixing. OMG, thank you for saving us! You are world treasures and should have VIP entourages and senior politicians should be meeting with you weekly to find a way to save our fumbling morons that the U.S. colleges must be producing for there to be such a great demand for your services.

Re:Locals preferred ?

[NewYork]

We don't want your merit. https://qz.com/889524

Re:Locals preferred ?

[thomn8r]

Very few H1Bs are Europeans

In my own personal experience over the past 25 years, I've only met a single European H1B - she was a COBOL coder from Germany doing Y2K work for $50k/year. She about shat her pants when I told her what American COBOL people were making for the same work.

Re:Isn't it being reformed?

[hawguy]

Isn't H1B issuance impossible right BECAUSE it's being reformed? What am I missing?

No... It's in a normal shutdown of expedited visas so they can catch up on applications. This has happened before.

That's cute

[quonset]

At least 50,000 Americans will lose their jobs this year because the president has yet to fulfill the promise he made to millions who voted for him.

You thought Trump would fulfill his "promises"? Remember when he said he'd put Hillary in jail? How about when he said he wouldn't have time to go golfing because he'd be too busy working? Mexico paying for the wall? Draining the swamp?

Like so many others who voted for Trump, you've been conned.

Re:That's cute

[ccguy]

At least 50,000 Americans will lose their jobs this year because the president has yet to fulfill the promise he made to millions who voted for him.

You thought Trump would fulfill his "promises"?

I don't think he's going to deliver, but let's be serious, it's been less than 2 months.
Someone else was in office 8 years and didn't close Guantanamo.

But in general, I think anyone that promises "jobs" these days is just a liar or clueless.

Re:That's cute

[Anonymous Coward]

Job numbers are the same as previous years for February. All that's different is the spin.

> He can just use a Pen and a Phone to completely change everything.
So he needs the Congressional Republicans to sign off on not golfing 30% of the time? I've got to reread the Constitution it seems. Trump also has preposterously expensive travel habits. Remember how much money Obama "wasted" traveling? Add a zero.

Re:That's cute

[fluffernutter]

I recently read an article about his (every) weekend trip to West Palm Beach. He flies on Air Force One, after criticizing Obama for his use of it. Also he is costing taxpayers millions of dollars for makeshift security because of the crowds that gather, and the airport needs to close down for the entire weekend. He has cost something like 30 million dollars in additional police already.

Re:That's cute

[Hognoxious]

Yeah... because all of those things can be done in the first 100 days.

Judging by his campaign he should have done them in the first 100 minutes.

Did people think there's a prosperity dial somewhere in the oval office and Obama didn't tun it because he's a rotten old meanie, and right next to it a security from tairzum lever but he couldn't figure out whether to push or pull it?

Re: That's cute

[quonset]

Source?

Here ya go. As you can see, at least one business, at the time of the writing, has already lost a customer because of Trump's weekly visits and others are losing money because they can't do business while he's in town.

As to the cost of Trump's flight down and everything involved, roughly $3 million each time. But since this is Trump, who whined about how many times Obama went golfing and the cost to the taxpayers, I'm sure this won't mean anything. I've seen on several pro-Trump sites and sites where people are favorable to Trump defending these costs because they're nothing but "liberal" hysterics, then turning around and saying if Obama did then Trump can do it despite these same people whining about it when Obama did it.

So yeah, hypocrisy at its finest.

Re:That's cute

[thegarbz]

the Job Market seems to be up now

Hate to break it to you, but the job numbers in first couple of months of a new presidency have nothing to do with the new government. You said it yourself it takes time.

I have to hand it to you, I've never seen someone contradict themselves so quickly before.

Re:That's cute

[ooloorie]

Like so many others who voted for Trump, you've been conned.

That's precious, given that Democrats and social justice activists are trying to block everything Trump tries to do, including such simple and sensible things as a 90 day review of visa handling from countries we are effectively at war with. Reforming the H-1B program would take many months even under the best of circumstances, and with Democrats trying to tie the Trump administration in knots, don't complain if it takes a lot longer than that.

No, I didn't vote for Trump, but I deplore the hypocrisy of people like you.

Re: That's cute

[ooloorie]

So yeah, hypocrisy at its finest.

I voted for Obama, and I think that after eight years, he turned out to be the shittiest president in my memory.

I didn't vote for Trump, and I don't like some of his policies, but I am going to wait another eight years to pass judgment on his presidency.

Let the guy get to work. We can all draw our conclusions eight years from now at the end of his administration.

Re: That's cute

[Anonymous Coward]

I voted for Obama, and I think that after eight years, he turned out to be the shittiest president in my memory

1) Economy vastly better than when he came in
2) Didn't have a katrina or a 9/11
3) Didn't start any new wars
4) People had a right to health insurance even if they weren't healthy
5) Less discrimination possible
6) Women in the military (why should they not have the option?)
7) Low unemployment and he avoided a new great depression.
8) No scandals related to his term in office. (They Hillary thing wasn't about him, and was manufactured to a certain extent anyway.)
9) The US was more respected in the world.

Now let's compare it to Trump
1) A reputation built on lies, beginning with the great birther lie.
2) A reputation for disrespecting women, political opponents, reporters, the fourth estate, dedicated civil servants, our intelligence agencies, the generals, and even the pope.
3) An unconstitutional executive order and several people running agencies they want to destroy.
4) The press core is now becoming blatantly biased by being stacked with non credible right wing news sources.
5) A guy who just to amuse himself accuses the previous president of felonies and disrupting the noble election process, which he himself made a mockery of. He should be removed for unprofessional conduct, let alone all the rest.
6) A guy with no morals or guiding principle. Look back at his record and he is generally for most of the things he is against now.
7) A guy who happily stood before cheering crowds he incited to near riot and said he was going to lock up his political opponents.
8) A guy who happily forces us to spend massive sums of money to protect him rather than at the white house continually like everyone else.
9) A guy who may not have overtly coordinated with Russia, but was clearly in the loop and when they helped him, well his policies got suspiciously pro Russia. Seriously, whatever he is hiding must be damning, since he insults everyone else in the universe than Putin. Also at the level he operates at, they don't exactly need a formal deal. wink.. wink.. nudge nudge..
10) A guy who takes after Joseph Goebbels in style and lies. Seriously, it is like he lives his life by that playbook. Don't believe me? Look it up.
11) A guy who has hidden any detailed information about his life, including his tax returns while at the same time demanding everything from the previous guy including his grades and such.

People that complain about Obama and then say give trump a chance. Well I used to think it may be a form of mental illness where they just irrationally weight their pet issue to infinity and beyond and give up all rational thought on every other issue. Sadly it is too pervasive. It is normal, or close to it which says something bad about the human species in general. Either way it mostly seems about hypocrisy. I.E. people think Trump will give them something, that they have perhaps not earned, such as jobs, protection from the gay people, protections from the foreigners, protections from the (other), etc, etc.

It is all rather sad. The job market is hard, but that is not really something the president directly controls. That is life moving on. You just don't need as many workers anymore, but instead of facing that issue and doing something to actually fix it, republicans and their ilk keep lying. Did you know the job market was great now that trump was in charge? He told you so, right after he said it was horrible, even when it was the same numbers. Good numbers are only good when they support a republican, otherwise they are Fake News. If the republicans had any love of country they would end this mistake, but sadly, very few of them do. Giving the rich another tax break with the health care changes is not going to fix anything, but I'm sure it makes their rich friends smile. Banning some more muslims is not going to make us particularly safer, but it sure sounds good.

Re:That's cute

[currently_awake]

The Democrats don't have the votes to block anything. Iraq is America's "boots on the ground" ally in the fight against ISIS, not an enemy. America is not effectively at war with anyone, though Syria/Iran might soon be. The reason the Social Justice Activists stopped his ban was the retroactive part, it affected travel visas already issued.

Re:That's cute

[TeknoHog]

Think of all the jobs he is creating! With that kind of spending, he could employ the entire world for a while. After all, having jobs is more important than getting things done or doing them efficiently. Besides, when you're not being conservative in the physical sense, it means you're being progressive — progressing steadily down the drain.

Re:That's cute

[ooloorie]

The Democrats don't have the votes to block anything

They file lawsuits. Democratic bureaucrats and judges sabotage the implementation of directives, etc.Yes, there is plenty of crap Democrats can do and have been doing.

Iraq is America's "boots on the ground" ally in the fight against ISIS, not an enemy. America is not effectively at war with anyone, though Syria/Iran might soon be

Well, call it whatever you want to. Those countries are in chaos, and that's why their citizens can't be vetted properly and shouldn't be admitted.

The reason the Social Justice Activists stopped his ban was the retroactive part, it affected travel visas already issued.

So what? Border agents can turn you away at the border if they don't like your answers, visa or not. A visa gives you no enforceable rights.

Re:That's cute

[Anonymous Coward]

Like so many others who voted for Trump, you've been conned.

And WTF do you think Hillary would have done for us IT workers? She was totally in favor of giving Apple, Google, Facebook and the Silicon Valley supporters who so generously donated to her campaign basically everything they wanted on H1B. More visas? Absolutely. Fast track? No problem! Hillary was their woman. As bad as H1B policy may turn out to be under Trump, Hillary had already sold us out during the campaign. At least Trump made a pretense of helping the American worker. Hillary, on the other hand, was perfectly willing to sell out a small group of middle class white men in pursuit of Democratic Party immigration priorities. I work in the IT industry and I voted for Trump for one reason and one reason only: he promised to protect my job and wages. As soon as he said that, he had my vote. You say that I've been conned, but my choice was between a woman who had declared her intention to sell me out and therefore didn't give a damn about me and a billionaire who at least acknowledged that I existed and said that he would try to save my job. Under the circumstances, in my opinion, the billionaire was the entirely rational choice. Conned? Hardly, I knew exactly what I was doing when I pulled the lever for Trump.

Re:That's cute

[Xyrus]

I don't think he's going to deliver, but let's be serious, it's been less than 2 months.

And in that time period he's managed to have more scandals, conflicts of interests, ethics violations, flat out lies, etc. than any president in recent memory. Alternative facts, CONway promoting Ivanka's product line, senior level cabinet members having, at best, questionable ties to Russia. This is the type of shit I used to read in in political intrigue novels.

Someone else was in office 8 years and didn't close Guantanamo.

You can't be that stupid. That wouldn't have anything to do with the assholes in Congress who did nothing but work to undermine and block Obama in every conceivable way, would it? The republo-fascists would not approve any of the closure measures, therefore no funding and support to actually close Gitmo and deal with the people held there.

Back to H1-B's, you're smoking some good shit if you think for one moment Trump cares about "the little people". This is a narcissistic sociopath who has a long history of fucking people over whenever and however he can. From throwing African Americans off his property to making the IRS develop special rules just to deal with the BS he pulled to avoid paying taxes, Trump is all about Trump.

Re:That's cute

[david_thornley]

He may have foregone the salary. He says he did, but he lies incessantly. There's no evidence that he has.

Missing data

[Anonymous Coward]

How many H-1B contractors from Infosys, Cognizant, Wipro, and Tata Consultancy did Microsoft, Google, Facebook, and Uber have on their bench? There's a failure here to connect a critical dot.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[HornWumpus]

You think they should do circuit analysis with Javascript on a AWS server? Fucking millennials.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, lets marginalize them for their age first, then accuse them of having engineering skills taught before 2005. Because we all know that V=IR is outdated, and there is that 'new' thingy called Tau, and that is just impossible for a 50 year old to understand.

Okay......

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I know that we mere mortals can't edit our posts (O The Horror) but for fuck's sake, can't the editors even correct a typo?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the word "editor" is based on the word "edit". That implies the ability to ummm, edit.

Is the ability to alter a post outside the lofty control of the Powers That Be?

Re:Okay......

[Chmarr]

Wow1 I thought it was _always_ called H!-B11

Re:Why do you think that?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

What makes you think that he *won't*?

Because he's an incompetent, narcissistic clown who clearly has idea NO how the government works?

Because he's an insecure, delusional jackass who's filled his cabinet with crooked, deceptive people who have no real-world experience in the posts they've been awarded?

Or maybe, just maybe, because he just willing to say whatever it took to whip his gullible followers into a frenzy and he never had the slightest intention of doing most if not all of the things he claimed he would do?

He's busy claiming credit for stuff he hasn't done, why should he make good on any of his promises? I mean, that shit takes work.

After all, this is the guy who said, "Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated". Nobody knew? Really?

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Everyone is 50+ with extremely outdated skillsets.

Having experience is a bad thing? Since when?

Also, understanding how things work is a skillset that will never go out of style. These guys knows things that you'll never, ever comprehend.

Now go back to guzzling Red Bull and coding your newest Tinder clone, dumbfuck.

People expect Trump to honor his promises?

[gweihir]

Whenever I think people cannot get any dumber, something like this is in the news. Expecting a pathological liar to keep promises is hard to top, but I am sure the idiots will find a way to do even dumber things.

Re:People expect Trump to honor his promises?

[swillden]

Whenever I think people cannot get any dumber, something like this is in the news. Expecting a pathological liar to keep promises is hard to top, but I am sure the idiots will find a way to do even dumber things.

You don't get it.

Trump's supporters take his promises seriously not literally. His opponents err in taking him literally when they should be taking him seriously.

No, I have no idea what that means either.

Re:People expect Trump to honor his promises?

[gweihir]

Hmm. Is that an alternate fact or fake news? I do not understand that distinction either.

Re:People expect Trump to honor his promises?

[swillden]

Is that an alternate fact or fake news?

Yes. Or no. You'll have to wait for the tweet to know for sure. And then the non-clarification from Sean Spicer.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[thinkwaitfast]

largely offshored

So you are saying all of it should be offshored? I don't design circuits, but I work with the people who do and I'm expected to understand how circuits work well enough that I can write the software to interact with them. Like not enough filtering on an interrupt line leading to spurious interrupts when a light is turned on or off.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[thinkwaitfast]

It's always a good idea to have a deep understanding of how hardware works when writing low level software. Like why you get an interrupt even when they are turned off or why your branches are doing what they're supposed to. Trying to debug faulty hardware, is a lot of fun, especially at the hardware level. Data spanning page boundaries are a lot of fun. And not every system in the world runs Intel. Quite the opposite is true.

Re:Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

What makes you think that he *won't*?

Well, he can always go the way Hitler did it, by starting several really large ground wars and sending all the unemployed there as conscripts. Of course, the pay will suck and the job will be deadly and soul-destroying, but hey, jobs!

Re:Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

After all, this is the guy who said, "Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated". Nobody knew? Really?

And yet, most of Europe just manages. Probably we are living in "alternate facts" here...

Re:Why do you think that?

[Kohath]

Because claiming to know the future has become accepted instead of laughed at -- by people who are intelligent enough to know better but not wise enough to avoid being fools.

I can tell you about my experience. ..

[OneSmartFellow]

... training my replacement,  after I gave notice.

I am always looking for a new job,  anyone who isn't is a fool.

So, I was/am happily employed by a medium sized ,very high tech , company.  I'm a sys-integration guy, which means I used to be an very good developer, then got more interesting in the bigger picture.  Since I was never satisfied with my knowledge in any aspect of computing,  I became very good with OS fundamentals, networking,  file systems,  and all the other peripheral stuff associated with software development  (revision control,  ticketing, testing,  deployment, you name it,  I know about it )    So Integration came easy.

I  recently found a significantly better paying,  more interesting job, so gave notice.   My company hired an H1B to replace me.

He is useless.   After 3 weeks of fairly intensive OJT, he is still unable to even start to resolve the few minor problems that come up.

I have very,  very little faith that he will be able to take over for me.

I know for a fact that he is being paid less than half of what I am earning.  I  also know that totally qualified locals are available,  for about 85% of my rate.

So, I  have told him,  he shouldn't even have the job, he is taking a decent paying position from a properly qualified local,  and that he should be happy I'm not his boss, cause I'd fire his ass immediately.  I have a pretty good suspicion that he was hired because the project manager' wife (indian) has a H1B recruiting company in India.   She's a bitch and a half too.

Needless to say we're not really on speaking terms.

Fuck the H1B program.   It's just a way to abuse the labor market.  There's no skills shortage,  there's a corporate greed problem.

Re:I can tell you about my experience. ..

[m00sh]

... training my replacement, after I gave notice. I am always looking for a new job, anyone who isn't is a fool. So, I was/am happily employed by a medium sized ,very high tech , company. I'm a sys-integration guy, which means I used to be an very good developer, then got more interesting in the bigger picture. Since I was never satisfied with my knowledge in any aspect of computing, I became very good with OS fundamentals, networking, file systems, and all the other peripheral stuff associated with software development (revision control, ticketing, testing, deployment, you name it, I know about it ) So Integration came easy. I recently found a significantly better paying, more interesting job, so gave notice. My company hired an H1B to replace me. He is useless. After 3 weeks of fairly intensive OJT, he is still unable to even start to resolve the few minor problems that come up. I have very, very little faith that he will be able to take over for me. I know for a fact that he is being paid less than half of what I am earning. I also know that totally qualified locals are available, for about 85% of my rate. So, I have told him, he shouldn't even have the job, he is taking a decent paying position from a properly qualified local, and that he should be happy I'm not his boss, cause I'd fire his ass immediately. I have a pretty good suspicion that he was hired because the project manager' wife (indian) has a H1B recruiting company in India. She's a bitch and a half too. Needless to say we're not really on speaking terms. Fuck the H1B program. It's just a way to abuse the labor market. There's no skills shortage, there's a corporate greed problem.

Why is this an H1B problem then? Anybody can hire an incompetent bozo for half the salary.

After all the legal and immigration paperwork and fees, he'll probably add 10K-20K in expenses over his salary.

Re:I can tell you about my experience. ..

[Bender0x7D1]

Have you thought about reporting it? I mean, if no one bothers to report it, how are the enforcement authorities supposed to know they need to do something?

Re:I can tell you about my experience. ..

[currently_awake]

If you look at countries with guest worker programs you see 90% of the population are "Foreigners", who just happened to be born and raised in your country.

Re: IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Anonymous Coward]

I have hired a lot of EE's. My interviews with Americans almost always end with the hiring team thinking that they are fantastic candidates, and then management says that they cannot afford them, and submits an H1-B application. There are a lot of qualified American EE's, there are not a lot of qualified management professionals willing to pay for them.

Re: Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

Yes, please, PLEASE do that! We would dearly love being rid of you!

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Anonymous Coward]

The 50+ crowd built the foundation for the PC and Internet revolution. Today's 20 somethings think building a cool app somehow makes them leaders of the IT world. The 50+ crowd grew up watching the 70+ crowd design cutting edge jet aircraft and IC's using slide rules and desktop calculators. I see no ground breaking technologies being designed by the 20+ crowd who think it requires a super computer to crunch their numbers on.

"extremely outdated skillsets"
You do know that their are more lines of COBOL running in the world? Today's programmers think that becoming an expert on next cool scripting language is pushing the art of programming in the right direction. Scripting languages are about as important as bumper stickers on a car but without the car they are useless and the 20 something crowd are not building a new line of cars.

Trump's proposal

[ooloorie]

Currently, H-1B visas are given out by lottery, which makes little sense. It means that outsourcing firms just flood the process with applications for low-paid workers.

Trump has proposed reforming the H-1B program so that visas are handed out for the highest-paying jobs first. That would fix most of those problems. It may be something Trump can even do without congressional action.

Re:Trump's proposal

[Neuronwelder]

So Trump is going to be handing out the highest paying jobs first. What will the H-1B jobs will pay? If it turns out the the highest jobs turn out to be the cheaper paying jobs to the H-1B people, then the American workers just lost the best jobs in America. Is this what is meant by creating jobs for Americans??

Re:Trump's proposal

[ooloorie]

So Trump is going to be handing out the highest paying jobs first. What will the H-1B jobs will pay?

Facebook pays an average of $135k to their H-1B employees.

https://techcrunch.com/2015/03...

If it turns out the the highest jobs turn out to be the cheaper paying jobs to the H-1B people,

Well, fortunately, after decades of experience, we know what the top paying jobs in the H-1B program are, so your fears are unfounded.

then the American workers just lost the best jobs in America. Is this what is meant by creating jobs for Americans??

If you limit highly skilled workers and immigrants from coming into the country, companies like Google and Facebook are simply going to increase the size of their R&D labs in China, India, and the EU. That is, those jobs won't go to (current) Americans, they will go to the same people who would have immigrated here, but they will now be paying taxes and contributing to foreign communities.

Americans need to realize that the most valuable resource a country can have is smart people; they bring the wealth and the growth. If you attract them, make life good for them, and offer them low taxes and wealth, they'll come, stay, and make you rich. If you keep them out, marginalize them, and impose high taxes on them, they'll stop being productive and eventually leave.

Re:Trump's proposal

[Neuronwelder]

Time will tell. I'm not afraid, its not My field! It's a whole new ball game. Time will tell!!

He's old

[rsilvergun]

he's not going to be working that hard. It's a miracle he made it through the election. Hilary didn't (she looked tired the entire time) and that lack of campaigning cost her the election.

Re:He's old

[phantomfive]

Hilary didn't (she looked tired the entire time) and that lack of campaigning cost her the election.

That's good point. I haven't seen anyone make that connection yet. If she had spent more time out on the campaign trail, maybe she would have won.

Like he said

[rsilvergun]

"What have you got to lose?". The trouble with Hilary was a) she campaigned on no policy whatsoever (seriously, there was just an article about how her ads were almost completely policy free) and she didn't campaign in the rust belt (either because she took 'em for granted or was too old/tired to do so, doesn't matter really).

Trump's voters don't expect him to keep his promises, but his opponent didn't make any. And the ones that put him in office (Blue collar guys abandoned by us white collar guys, so much for worker solidarity) don't have anything left. The ones that have jobs make $9/hr if they're lucky when they used to make 3x that. They go nothin'.

He won't

[rsilvergun]

because he'll push through it or quickly get replaced. H1-Bs work 60, 70,90 hours a week. Whatever it takes. If they don't it's back to their home country and well, there's a reason they came here.

The H1-Bs we're mad about aren't the rocket scientists, cryptography experts and geniuses. They're rank and file programmers taking jobs us /.ers used to have. This stuff isn't hard. It's mostly database driven apps and entry level engineering. 4 years college..hell 2 years of self training and you're good to go. That's what makes us replaceable and it's why we need laws to protect our standard of living. There's nothing wrong with that. There's no good reason to engage in a race to the bottom with countries that don't have food security let alone the basic freedoms we enjoy.

Re: IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Anonymous Coward]

OP is not right, but thinks like a hiring manager.

They have skillsets that are "out of date" because they know how things have been built through their career. They choose to go with proven methods and software, instead of adopting the latest tool that is less stable than difluoride-dioxide. They have a career worth of experience designing, building, supervising, and debugging, and demand pay commensurate with that experience's worth. The tools and field have advanced, because they have enabled it to do so through their labors.

It's like saying Dennis Ritchie is outdated because C++ exists. They are part of the foundation on which the new tools rest. Sure, things may not be as easy or fast to get working, but once it works, it can be made to work better than what most people shit out.

Maybe if you let senior people keep working in the industry, we wouldn't perpetually have to remind folks how bounds checking, or QA, or efficient nesting work. But the ageist numbskulls push people out when they have a lot of experience, while in other fields a senior engineer, designer, or architect is worth more, because they have the depth and breadth of experience to be able to do it better, faster, and cheaper.

Re: Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

The Canadian system basically would not look out of place at all in Europe. It is what a modern society has. I really do not understand what is wrong with the US population here. Health care as something everybody has access to increases the productivity of a society and decreases social unrest. It is an economically smart move. Is this some "whoever gets sick must have offended God" nonsense?

Re:Why do you think that?

[ColdWetDog]

You thought Trump would fulfill his "promises"?

He's only been in office 50 days.

What makes you think that he *won't*?

The first 50 days.

What if company experince was more important?

[ukoda]

I am a New Zealanders currently working for the New Zealand branch of a USA company. In my last job my employer was a New Zealand company that has a branch in the USA. It is my personal view that H-1B programs, and the New Zealand equivalent, should be paying imported staff more that local staff for the same role to stop out sourcing just to save money.

In the case of my current role we have a couple of people working in NZ from the USA who are here because they know the parent companies operation and products and are helping our branch fit in with the parent operation. I believe they are being paid well above the rest of us so we know the reason is not money saving but rather company experience they bring. There is no animosity here towards them, they are welcomed team members.

I was wondering about the reverse situation, if I was to work for my former employer in the USA. I would expect to be paid at least the same a local for the same role, probably more due to my skills and experience. There would be one less local employed but the company would be better off because of my deep and long knowledge of their product range. Would I still be seen as stealing a job from a local?

Re:What if company experince was more important?

[Registered Coward v2]

I was wondering about the reverse situation, if I was to work for my former employer in the USA. I would expect to be paid at least the same a local for the same role, probably more due to my skills and experience. There would be one less local employed but the company would be better off because of my deep and long knowledge of their product range. Would I still be seen as stealing a job from a local?

In my experience, no you would not be viewed as stealing a job from a local. I've worked with multi-national companies and when some came from an overseas office we knew they were good and looked forward to working with them.

Re:Why do you think that?

[ColdWetDog]

Well, yes, 'just manages' is closer to the truth than you might think. First off, the Western Social Democracies already have complicated systems in place that took decades to set up. Then there are the constantly contentious issues of how to fund it. It IS complex.

Starting over from scratch is clearly not a option so you have to create a plan to get there (wherever 'there' ends up being) from here. In a country that is having a Complete Twizzle Fit over whether a requirement to have medical insurance means means the End of the World as We Know It (but a coercive regressive tax credit is True Enlightenment) substantive changes to the system are clearly a non starter no matter what political stripe you're wearing or who has the quadrennial mandate.

Everyone on both sides of the aisle knew damned well it was complicated and that Trump's one liners and promises (yes, we'll change everything, no it won't cost any more) were complete (and typical) political nonsense.

Re:Why do you think that?

[ColdWetDog]

No, then we'd have to pay Veteran's benefits to those folks. That's a really bad idea.

Re: Why do you think that?

[currently_awake]

Socialized Medicare (used by every first world country on earth but 1) means the rich and healthy subsidize the poor and the sick. A single mother with 5 kids working minimum wage can't afford 6 months in the hospital from a car crash. The USA is run by the rich, for the rich. Meaning "Pay your own way" (no subsidies).

Re:Why do you think that?

[currently_awake]

Or he can start a civil war, and kill Americans twice as fast.

Re: Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

The thing is, that is not true. The rich pay more if general health is bad due to lower productivity. The rich profit more from a society with more healthy and productive members than the poor do. This has to be some non-rational "make them suffer" attitude at work, because it does not make economic sense at all, even in a country that is just barely first world and second world in many ways. This idea only makes sense in 3rd world countries where most labor is unskilled and nothing is invested into poor people by way of education, making them entirely expendable.

Don't Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Nail the slimy fuckers (Infosys, Wipro, Tata), and leave the rest of us legitimate H1B folks alone. Full disclosure : BS + PhD here in the US, H1B for ~3 years, now a permanent resident.

Re:Don't Throw the Baby out with the Bathwater

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Me and my countrymen? Way to paint everyone with the same brush - I'm not even from f*cking India FYI!

Re:Why are you describing Obama?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Why are you describing Obama? (Score:-1, Troll)

I think that says it all.

Obama served four years in the U.S. Senate representing Illinois. Before that, he was a state senator in Illinois for eight years. He was also a senior lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School during that time.

Obama had experience in government. Only in Republican politics does a complete and total lack of experience count as a positive quality.

But let me guess, when you're sick you go see an architect or an electrician, right? You'd never stoop to going to someone with experience like a doctor, would you?

Re: Why do you think that?

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

The thing is, that is not true. The rich pay more if general health is bad due to lower productivity.

You're decoupling generalities from practicalities, from the day-to-day reality of the world.

What you said may be true in theory, but the rich don't care- they'll be able to afford what they want no matter what it costs, including healthcare.

Re:Where *is* your Donald in this, BTW?

[AutodidactLabrat]

Ahhh,how about going after the parasites instead?
They are in the boardrooms of the employers of these permatemps.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[AutodidactLabrat]

Why is there a shortage?
H1-B's.
No reason to do as much work in school as any banker...and be offshored for 1/3 the income!

Interesting

[Trailer Trash]

So, we're criticizing Trump because he hasn't gotten around to this in his first 50 days. At least he acknowledged that there's a problem and has proposed a very good solution.

I have to wonder what all the Trump bashers would be saying now had Hillary won, because her handlers had her dancing to the tune of "we're going to expand the H-1B program". I don't know if the IEEE leans left, but was this ever an issue for them before Trump became President?

Re:Interesting

[drinkypoo]

So, we're criticizing Trump because he hasn't gotten around to this in his first 50 days. At least he acknowledged that there's a problem and has proposed a very good solution.

He hasn't made a concrete proposal, that's what we're complaining about. Try again, son.

Re:Interesting

[drinkypoo]

Wow! He acknowledges the problem (which was not done by the prior regime), and proposes a philosophy/ design goal (hire Americans).

He runs a visa mill, so you can't take that bullshit seriously. One, it might be added, from which he continues to profit.

But you bitch about not having an entire proposal with all the legal problems solved (how much US labor law do you know?)

That's not my job. But since he claimed he was going to fix it lickety-split, it is his job. And he's failing at it.

I get the feeling that even if Trump had a concrete work visa proposal on the first day of his administration, you would bitch about it on some grounds

I probably would, but that's because it would probably be illegal garbage, if everything else Trump has done is any indication.

Tough Choices..

[0ld_d0g]

In a capitalist system, you can't really make laws telling companies to not reduce their wage bill as much as they (legally) can. If they can't bring people here, they're going to send the job there. Just like America will never be a manufacturing economy again, it looks like it is not going to remain a 'basic software' economy either.

The world is changing and if the US wants other countries to open up their markets, the US will have to open up their own labor market. The US used to be able to bully others into asymmetrical trade agreements, but that is going to get tougher and tougher as more and more countries lift themselves out of poverty.

I remember when Japanese and Korean cars were called "junk" and now they make the best cars. It's not going to take long for the Indians to get good.

Americans tend NOT to lie to match a job spec

[Anonymous Coward]

Americans tend NOT to lie to match a job spec, but H-1b Visa placement companies will make a candidate's resume matches the requirements exactly, even if that isn't possible and a few lies are necessary.

I remember seeing a resume where someone claimed to have 7 yrs of Java when the language had only been known for 4 yrs.

I see people asking for help to "come up to speed" on different technologies in a week all the time. They think spending 2 yrs to learning a skill isn't needed. Really their questions are about the interview they have next week and trying to lie their way through it. They will get passed HR, but not someone who knows their stuff.
I don't want to say that the person on the visa is lying, but the company representing them definitely is. I don't think they provide a cost-of-living adjustment either. The low-end housing those companies get for their people is just scary. I don't expect C++ programmers on my team to live in drug-invested apartments and to walk 3 miles to/from work and a mile to/from the grocery store.

I've worked places where H-1b visa people were hired. At the tiny companies, it was a win-win. The folks were really smart and were paid a fair, competitive salary (I saw the payroll). We'd hire them AFTER interviewing 10+ local candidates who didn't fit our needs. At small companies, there isn't room for dead weight.

At larger companies where HR was overly involved in getting new hires in, the h-1b visa people were NOT gifted. Most (not all) of them were fresh out of some training school where they learned X, but weren't able to so X+1 without a detailed example.

I never worried about my job over personality or technical skills. I was let go because of a company policy about contractors only being there 2 yrs. They got an extension for me, but I'd already made plans to travel for 6 months.

Why don't folks here report it?

[sudarshan85]

From the comments in slashdot over the years and indeed in the comments in this post as well, it indicates that many people are affected by the H1-B program abuse.

But instead of just voicing their concerns on a website, why don't people report it to the authorities if they witness H1-B fraud.

They have a website giving instructions on what to do and a form that needs to be filled and submitted.

Link: https://www.dol.gov/whd/forms/...
Form: https://www.dol.gov/whd/forms/...

Why are people not doing this?

And why does the H1-B hate invariably translate to hate towards Indians?

Re:Why don't folks here report it?

[sudarshan85]

This is not limited to India or Indians. It takes time to get assimilated. As many of you might know, India is a very diverse country with a wide variety of languages. Pretty much each state in India has its own language after the States Reorganisation Act, 1956 when the states were separated based on linguistics. So even in India when a large number of people from a different state move, they tend to stick together and talk their own languages. Many people from different states talk in English to communicate with each other. I'm not stating this as an excuse, just stating it as a fact.

as the buses I ride to work fill up with them,
  it is hard not instinctually feel repulsion towards them
  it does start to feel like hatred sometimes.

Does your repulsion and hatred stem from their language/culture/skin color? Because if any of this is true, it is no different than the hatred towards black people on racial basis or hatred towards LGBT people on sexual orientation basis. I understand there is a problem with fraud and abuse, but I have seen the hatred against the government policies or against the companies translate in to hatred against Indians since, as you have aptly stated we are the "face". A very recent incident which was posted here as well is the murder of an Indian in Kansas.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[HiThere]

COBOL was a horrible language even for the day. Fortran was much better...but it was harder for the bosses to pretend to understand. (OTOH, COBOL was decent at some formatting tasks compared to Fortran, and I believe it included BCD numbers, where in Fortran you needed to use a library for that.)

It's true that there's a lot of ancient COBOL code still live, and I attribute it to the fact that nobody can really understand it, but, unlike assembler, it didn't automatically die when you change processors.

Re: Why do you think that?

[gweihir]

I am just saying that your argument is invalid. It is not the rich wanting to get richer (because they will not this way), it is the rich being evil.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Darinbob]

When I was in college there was always a dumb class or two for easy credits if you were lazy. Such as Microsoft Word, or Programming For Math Majors, or Spreadsheet in Science. Today though, the entire CS curriculum feels dumbed down this way. Now I see recent grads not knowing how a computer even works as a practical matter, or how a computer works as a theoretical matter. They've learned nothing that a trade school advertised on daytime TV cannot teach. When most of the jobs no longer require a brain, then no wonder they want to outsource the jobs.

Misleading stats

[larryjoe]

"The outsourcing companies, Infosys, Cognizant, Wipro, and Tata Consultancy in 2014 "used 21,695 visas, or more than 25 percent of all private-sector H-1B visas used that year."

While this statement might have been intended to highlight the dominance of H1-B visa usage by outsourcing companies, the truth goes far beyond that. In 2015, the top-8 companies receiving H1-B visas received 49539 or over 58% of the total visas. Of those 49539 visas, 48651 or over 98% went to Indian nationals. Furthermore, of those 49539 visa, only about 700 went to holders of graduate degrees from schools. That means that these top-8 outsourcing companies received over 75% of the 65000 non-graduate degree visas.

Re: IEEE, your grandpa's club

[WindBourne]

Actually, I would argue that the management team is unqualified.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[Chmarr]

Are you saying that every system _doesn't_ run Intel?

Why are you describing Obama?

[sethstorm]

Because he's an incompetent, narcissistic clown who clearly has idea NO how the government works?

That's Obama for you.

Because he's an insecure, delusional jackass who's filled his cabinet with crooked, deceptive people who have no real-world experience in the posts they've been awarded?

From Valerie Jarrett to Hillary Clinton, that's Obama again.

Or maybe, just maybe, because he just willing to say whatever it took to whip his gullible followers into a frenzy and he never had the slightest intention of doing most if not all of the things he claimed he would do?

He's busy claiming credit for stuff he hasn't done, why should he make good on any of his promises? I mean, that shit takes work.

Obama, yet again as demonstrated in his jobless recovery, wiretapping Trump out of fear, and enabling black racists to riot.

After all, this is the guy who said, "Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated". Nobody knew? Really?

That's Obama's doing, if not his exact words. The truth really must hurt badly if you're going to modbomb it.

Training or hire self-trained contractors

[Paul Fernhout]

Yes -- training is being replaced by H1B hiring! Investments in employee training by big companies like HP and IBM are what made Silicon Valley possible in the first place.

Discussions about H1Bs also often imply that if you pay an H1B as much as a US citizen then everything is OK -- but it is not. Where is the extra incentive for people to risk their own time to learn stuff which might or might not be in demand when wages are essentially capped at market wages for employees? Or for contractors to put a *lot* of extra unpaid time (and stress) into learning as they go after taking on a project? Granted, most techies learn stuff on the side anyway -- but that is more problematical when you have a family. Example:
"Ask HN: Developers with kids, how do you skill up?"
https://news.ycombinator.com/i...

Another part of this rarely discussed is that companies used to pay 2X to 3X more than a worker's salary+benefits to specific highly-compensated individuals as independent contractors. But, big contracting firms like Perot Systems lobbied around the 1980s to get laws passed affecting IRS regulations that made it financially risky for companies to hire individuals on a 1099 independent contractor basis -- thus forcing more individuals to work through big companies as W2 employees. We just take that change for granted decades later, but things were not always like this. (That said, in many areas of the economy 1099 IC workers are indeed exploited -- just not back then in the technology field in in-demand areas.)

Increasing mastery (i.e. on the job learning) is one important part of a happy work life (along with autonomy, purpose, and community); sad that so many companies ignore it:
"RSA ANIMATE: Drive: The surprising truth about what motivates us"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

And no, learning some new flavor of the month JavaScript framework that reinvents the wheel badly does not count much towards a feeling of "mastery" for an experienced programmer...

Related:
http://blog.getabstract.com/th...
"So, why are some companies dragging their feet and refusing to invest in employee development? In some cases, it comes down to an insecurity most managers don't want to acknowledge: the fear an employee may become become overqualified, outgrow his job, and leave the company to pursue a better position elsewhere before a promotion is available. This fear isn't completely baseless. Young high achievers job hop frequently to earn a higher salary, and on average, leave their jobs after only 28 months.
    Withholding professional development from employees is not the right response to this fear; it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Employees seek professional development to achieve successful careers, and when companies don't invest in this development, employees leave."

As I suggested in this comment about Google and H1Bs:
https://slashdot.org/comments....
"So, in a similar way that Angela Davis suggests prisons are the USA's way [of consolidating] dealing with social issues it can't or won't address, hiring H1Bs willing to live like sardines in SV slum-equivalents helps Google make up for those less-than-desirable recruiting aspects while not having to address fundamental issues which are harder to wrestle with involving the soul of the organization and how it spends its revenues towards what ends."

Follow the establishment payola.

[sethstorm]

They're the ones causing things to go wrong, not Trump. Deal with them and their lobbyists, which want the status quo.

s/Trump/Clinton/g

[sethstorm]

Like so many others who voted for Clinton and other establishment candidates, you've been conned.

Fixed that for you to reflect facts.

Re: IEEE, your grandpa's club

[thomn8r]

Most of these languages with the possible exception of RPG

Now that's a name I've not heard in a long time

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[cwsumner]

I don't design circuits, but I work with the people who do and I'm expected to understand how circuits work well enough that I can write the software to interact with them. Like not enough filtering on an interrupt line leading to spurious interrupts when a light is turned on or off.

EE here, I do hw, sw, systems, IT, etc. Sorry about those IRQ lines- that is lazy/poor engineering. It's pretty easy to shield and filter out noise. They should not require you to do it in software because you don't know for sure what is a clean signal no matter how many times you sample the input. And I'm not just blaming the lazy hw engineers- management should be aware of this stuff. Quality is always 2nd to profit.

They should be using double-throw switches, and no, they don't have to be too expensive.
That is the only way to completely debounce a switch, mechanical, optical or electronic. Time delays are just a stop-gap.

And before you tell me what your teacher said, I knew your teacher and he didn't know either... ;-)
(And get off of my lawn!)

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[cwsumner]

COBOL was a horrible language even for the day. ... It's true that there's a lot of ancient COBOL code still live, and I attribute it to the fact that nobody can really understand it, ...

Um ... I think he meant "COBOL running -right now- in the world" ! (FTFY)

The Managers

[cwsumner]

I wonder if the managers realize that they are, by offshoring the actual knowledge, also offshoring themselves?
See "Fridgedare" and "Westinghouse" !

This by it's self proves that they are incompetent...

Re:Why do you think that?

[david_thornley]

A forced requirement to purchase a product is slavery,

Sometimes you have to pay money to keep society going. With health insurance, there were over half a dozen vendors in my state's exchange, offering four different levels, so there was plenty of choice. My Federal taxes are what they are, and I have no choice. My health insurance money goes to keeping my family and me healthy, and my taxes go for all sorts of things, including things I find abhorrent.

Re:IEEE, your grandpa's club

[HiThere]

So did I. In fact I think I read about a new COBOL compiler just last year. That doesn't keep it from being a lousy language (with a few good features).

Sorry BS

[PortHaven]

And if a company like Google can't find an experienced worker in all of America to import. That position should be paid well over a $135,000. That should be a $250,000 position bare minimum.

And the number one way that contracting firms filter out locals from H1B. Wages offered. They'll offer a $65K job in the greater DC/Baltimore region. An American with a family who is unwilling to live in a slum can't afford that low of a wage.

What are you asking for salary?

[PortHaven]

You're on the east coast. I'll presume mid- to north- east. In which case, a decent IT salary would be around the $110K mark. Are you offering anything like that?

How much was your college education? I bet a year with an American salary can pay off most of the Indian educational costs. For an American to get a similar equivalent education, costs a fortune in student loans. As such, an American often needs about 40% more salary to cover those loans than an H1B visa holder. So when you make $65K, and lower the wages of an American down to $65K. You actually get a better standard of living than the local. As they're often paying a large percentage of their income to their student loans.