Slashdot Mirror
Online Job Sites May Block Older Workers (cnbc.com)
Joe_Dragon quotes a report from CNBC: Older Americans struggling to overcome age discrimination while looking for work face a new enemy: their computers. Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan recently opened a probe into allegations that ageism is built right into the online software tools that millions of Americans use to job hunt. Separate research published recently by the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank found that in a widespread test using fabricated resumes, fictional older workers were 30 percent less likely to be contacted after applying for jobs. Fictional older women had it even worse, being 47 percent less likely to get a "callback." Several forces are conspiring to ensure that many Americans have to work well past the traditional retirement age of 65. People are living longer, their retirement savings are inadequate, and Social Security reforms are almost certainly going to require it. The San Francisco Fed says that the share of the older-65 working population is projected to rise sharply -- from about 19 percent now to 29 percent in the year 2060. Online job-hunting tools should be making things easier for older employment seekers, and it can. Indeed.com, which claims to list 16 million jobs worldwide, currently lists 158,000 openings under its "Part Time Jobs, Senior Citizen Jobs" category. Monster.com, which claims 5 million listings, has a special home page for "Careers at 50+." In other ways, however, online job sites can cut older workers out. Age bias is built right into their software, according to Madigan. Job seekers who try to build a profile or resume can find that it's impossible to complete some forms because drop-down menus needed to complete tasks don't go back far enough to let older applicants fill them out. For example, one site's menu options for "years attended college" stops abruptly at 1956. That could prevent someone in their late 70s from filling out the form. Madigan's office said it found one example that only accommodated those who had attended school after 1980, "barring anyone who is older than 52." Other sites used dates ranging from 1950 to 1970 as cutoffs, her office said. The Illinois' Civil Rights Bureau has opened a probe into potential violations of the Illinois Human Rights Act and the federal Age Discrimination in Employment Act. Madigan's office has sent inquiry letters to six top jobs sites: Beyond.com, CareerBuilder, Indeed Inc., Ladders Inc., Monster Worldwide Inc. and Vault.
I've seen it before. Executive has hard validation set somewhere around the 90% cutoff rather than the 99.99999% cutoff and then you get cases where the validation just doesn't work.
Even the ACC doesn't know better yet.
Almost everything blocks older workers to some degree, usually significant.
Just as we've been telling everyone for years.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
This sounds like gross incompetence rather than malevolence. Dropdown boxes are not the correct tool for entering numbers or dates. Month and weekday? Fine, they're constrained to under 20 options. Year or day of month? That's bad design.
Most people only go 2, 4, or 6, sometimes a couple more. I suppose not supporting people who have gone to college for 1957 years is age discrimination for someone, but even Methuselah only lived to be 969.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
accommodated those who had attended school after 1980, "barring anyone who is older than 52."
That's 37 years ago. Someone who is 52 now was 15 in 1980.
The claim in the summary is exactly equivalent to the obviously false statement "No one older than 15 attends school."
the millennials might need a job. or not.
Age discrimination in general is a problem. This is not. If your formal education on basically any topic is more than 20 years old, it isn't relevant. It only makes sense to hire somebody like that if they have recent work history.
hang them by the neck until dead
1956 seems like a pretty arbitrary starting point. Then again, it's 'their' little search site, they can be as arbitrary as anyone else until legislated/litigated otherwise.
I'm not defending age discrimination but rather emphasizing the only real market-based defense against discriminating short-sighters : vote with your wallet/shoes.
That's blatantly discriminatory and bigoted. I'm an older worker, I stay late and have a flexible schedule. I'm tired of being denied job opportunities. I should be paid fairly, but I can't get access to jobs I can do really well.
Please note: Age discrimiation in hiring is illegal.
In the 1930's, there was 19 workers for every retiree. In 2030, when most of the baby boomers are retired, there will be two workers for every retiree. This problem has been well known since the Reagan Administration, but politicians found it easy to kick the can down the road.
Just hurry up and roll out the walk-in euthanasia clinics already. We're long past the point of pretending society will take care of you if you don't 'make it' while you can, so why not start giving people a humane way out? It will save a lot of costs incurred by having millions of desperate no-hopers such as crime, addiction, cleaning up after suicides etc.
It basically comes down to jealousy. The managers who are now in hiring positions and of same age as the older technical workers are Jealous of all the extra time the technical workers got to spend with their kids by not going into management. They hit back by not hiring their peers and hiring juniors who don't have families.
**Life is too short to be serious**
Can't wait to see how many billions of dollars these companies are fined.
As over 50 the discrimination is rampant.
If you're over 50 they find an excuse to get rid of you.
Everyone I know was gotten rid of with extreme prejudice at that age.
Nothing is being done about it and it is never taken up by media or the political parties and yet next to ethnic discrimination the single largest discrimination issue in this country.
I applied to many thousands of job and interviewed at hundreds before I got the handful of low paying positions that don;t even cover costs after fifty and I'm highly qualified for many types of work, am in good health, good personality, highly intelligent, and reasonable youngish looking for my age.
I can only guess it is related to healthcare costs and that most positions ask for the moon these days.
Everybody I hired so far was younger than myself, this happened by chance, I don't offer high salaries in the Western countries, while in the Eastern countries the people with experience that I am looking for are all younger people.
That said I would not hire somebody older in the West even if they accepted a lower pay because I don't want to be on the wrong side of a discrimination an so called 'human rights' lawsuit in case I have to fire that person. I don't need any government regulations backlash on my hands, so I try to ensure it just doesn't come to that. Hiring somebody older in the West means hiring somebody who is a more protected class (in terms of government laws) and it can be dangerous for me, as it can hurt me financially and this is where I draw the line.
You can't handle the truth.
Because the Conservative old people refused to index the retirement age to longevity, and tax rate to payout rate. If those had been indexed at the time of creation, it would never have been a problem. But the conservative voting block of AARP is "bribed" for votes with inapporpriately large SS payments for the amount paid in. And the Conservatives refuse to lift the income cap on SS taxes, making it explicitly regressive and causing funding issues. Lifting the SS tax cap would fund it, with no burden to the lower 90% of wage earners.
Learn to love Alaska
Why should someone stay for team-building exercises after hours? If the company thinks it can benefit from it, then let the company pay for the time. "Team-building" exercises are bs anyway. You really want to build a team, have the occasional meeting over lunch at the local pub. Really want to find the problems? Same thing. After a few drinks, people will say what they really think.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
It basically comes down to jealousy.
Despite still not sounding quite correct, this is the best explanation I've heard so far.
Depending on how the data is stored (a formated string date will behave somewhat differently than an integer) asking a typical web coder to make a form compliant for dates prior to the Linux Epoch may be well beyond their abilities.
Captcha: Additive
I've accomplished more and earned more money by the age of 30 than most people do in their entire lives. I hope to work well past 50. I'd rather give away everything and start again at the bottom than to just stop at some arbitrary age and be content with my achievements.
No matter how high you go, there's always a greater feat to which you should strive.
I've been 29 for most of a decade.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Russia is a criminally run hellhole.
IKR!! Except..slashdotters aren't nerds, they are corporate whores. One can be both, but let's not kid ourselves, there are no nerds here.
Failing in the sense that Social Security still raises more money in taxes than it pays out as benefits?
Or failing in the sense that you "cons" are deathly afraid of they day that that tax surplus goes away (as planned) and you cannot spend every cent on a defense budget larger than the next 10 countries' combined spending?
You know you have to set the XX year to some point and some on line job systems suck
http://taleosucks.blogspot.com...
lower the SS age or at least the medicare age.
Why not just have a single player system.
"This problem has been well known since the Reagan Administration, but politicians found it easy to kick the can down the road."
Not coincidentally, during Reagan's first year in office, the IRS ruled that 401(k)s could be funded through payroll deductions. Also during his first term, the Tax Reform Act of 1984 ensured that if a company offered 401(k)s, they were available to all employees. Rather than "kicking it down the road," they created an incentive for people to take control of their destiny away from the government.
By 1990, shortly after Reagan left office, almost 20 million people had 401(k) accounts. Today, they hold $4.8 trillion in assets.
The real problem is not congress, but the common attitude of "I want it all, and I want it now" ingrained in our entitlement society, and the failure of individuals to save for the future. Sure, congress can be blamed for robbing Peter to pay Paul with SS funds, but it was only ever intended to be a supplement to retirement.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
As if discrimination in hiring isn't subject to "government regulations backlash".
I'm tempted to report you myself... it's not often that someone is stupid enough, even pseudononymously, to admit to a clear violation of the law in a manner that they cannot delete on a site that maintains logs...
I am not (and never was) a Russian. Also I don't see the correlation.
You can't handle the truth.
People always whine about all the law suites coming from all over the place when in most cases it's fiction. It's how they rationalize breaking laws and obstructing justice and whatever. Are you a lawyer? Please show me the massive law suites filed against companies and tangible proof before you spread a bunch of nonsense.
In some they don't like people who like team play. As that is because team players are more likely to join unions.
Yes test like that for retail jobs but you do see them in office and tech jobs.
Please note: Age discrimiation in hiring is illegal.
Not true. The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) only protects workers older than 40. You can legally discriminate against younger workers in states that haven't passed additional protections.
So you're publicly admitting to engaging in illegal age discrimination. More than that, you're strongly implying that you wouldn't hire anyone in a "protected class". You'd better hope applicants for one of your jobs won't find this message, or you'll quickly find that *every single person* in a protected class who has ever applied for a job with you has a strong legal case against you.
If you even are an employer and not just delusional like I suspect.
I'm a dreamer, the world is my playpen. But hey, I'm a serious person, I can't dream all the time.
Shut up Grandpa!
Of course, pointing that out only makes your problem worse.
The government has rules to protect individuals in protected classes. Individuals over 40 are in a protected class and cannot be discriminated against in job interviews, promotions, etc. How does private industry address the issue of age discrimination?
Workers of all ages are being actively replaced by H1B Visa workers for a fraction of the price.
Remember all these companies who can't find qualified workers?
They're busy laying off americans so they can hire more H1B's
http://www.edd.ca.gov/jobs_and_training/warn/WARN-Report-for-7-1-2016-to-03-10-2017.pdf
An employer should put their money where their mouth is and hold team build during work hours.
We already have the walk-in Euthanasia clinics. It's called the Medical Industry. Just keep visiting all sorts of doctors and have scans etc. eventually they'll mess something up, or pretend you have cancer so they can drug you and train some students on the latest butcher 2000 robot operating experiment and if that or your nurse doesn't kill you, they'll send you to the hospice to do it.
http://www.consumerreports.org...
http://www.medpagetoday.com/En...
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/...
http://rense.com/general9/cre....
My main talent is using tools to solve problems
Over the years, I have accumulated many tools..software development, circuit design, woodworking, metalworking, many construction skills, artistic skills and many more
I'm still getting paid very well to write software and design circuits
Young people ask.."how do you keep up on new languages?"
I answer, I program in C and C++, it's the best choice for embedded systems. Wanna talk about learning?
My latest project was on a new processor (~1900 page datasheet), a new OS, and 10-20 new components, communicating through nontrivial hardware adapters
Yeah, I can keep up with the young guys
It seems odd that they don't realize this
what matters is the aggregate, and in the aggregate older people work less and are less productive. There's no good reason for a hiring manager to take a chance on you when there's a dozen young guys lined up who, odds are can work just as much as you do and don't have that risk.
And there's no such thing as illegal if the law's not enforced.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
I haven't put dates to my educational history in 20-+ years. I haven't included employment history further than 7 years for at least that long.
Since employers aren't really permitted to ask your age (AEDA), they shouldn't until it's time for as background check, and if they are big enough they should let HR/Personnel handle that information without revealing it to the hiring individual or team.
Wow. This is an anti-discrimination class-action suit waiting for a sponsor. Forcing dates out of you is forced age disclosure, and illegal.
Illegal. And it's not even new. Not surprising though.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
you belong in a death camp
Go piss up a rope. I'm "older" and of course I want more money. I have decades of experience and proven performance so I'm worth it. But the rest of your argument falls apart immediately. I have no family in the city I live, where I am currently employed I am on call for troubleshooting 24/7 - and I answer the call a hell of a lot better than some younger members of our group who seem to think work is an inconvenience to the Millennial lifestyle I might add - and am absolutely up for whatever "team building" is on offer. And again I notice the Millennials tend to bug out well before the team building is in full swing.
Most people are younger than yourself.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Freedom of association implies freedom from association.
You can report all you like, you will *NEVER* ferret out "racism," "sexism," etc. We will always exist working against you behind the cloak. Nature abhors your artificial imbalances in the name of chivalry and egality.
Two can play that game. "Younger applicants are lazy millennials. They don't have families, so they have no incentive to keep their job since we pay them dirt. They just go to the bar after hours."
I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
This is either a clever troll or sad individual. Fuck your team building exercises. I do the job you pay me for, end of story.
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
So what parent actually means is that Roman Mironenko's businesses Titan Technologies and TrackEnsure (located in Ontario, CA) are, by his own admission, in violation of the section 5(1) of the Ontario Human Rights Code, which prohibits discrimination in employment.
Any unsuccessful job applicant within the last year with Titan Technologies or TrackEnsure who believes they may have not gotten the job due to discrimination because of race, ancestry, place of origin, colour, ethnic origin, citizenship, creed, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, age, record of offences, marital status, family status or disability is likely to win to damages and compensation.
Any person alleging discrimination in Ontario can file an Application with the Ontario Human Rights Tribunal (“HRTO”). Applicants have one year from the date of the last discriminatory incident to submit an Application.
Why should someone stay for team-building exercises after hours? If the company thinks it can benefit from it, then let the company pay for the time.
Usually because it's some form of semi-sponsored event, at least the places I've worked here in Norway. Some made it a weekend trip, some made it a two-day gathering where you socialize and have people stay the night, occasionally there was some entertainment or excursion too. Even if it was just an evening it was at minimum a free dinner that night. For after hour voluntary training classes I've had "just" free pizza, I think for team building never less than a restaurant meal.
Besides, some of us like to socialize with each other. We've had poker nights, beer nights and a bunch rented a mountain cabin and went skiing on our own without any company involvement. I know at my current workplace there's a theater group, it's not my thing but hey... I know of two couples that met in the workplace, it doesn't have to be online dating. But if you don't want to hang out with your cow-orkers or other people at all, nobody's forcing you. I worked with someone I think I saw once a year on the Christmas dinner, otherwise always absent. Not a big deal.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Really? You would have to find somebody that I did not hire because of age, that did not happen yet, I just don't pay enough for somebody older to apply. However I am very comfortable saying that the laws in the Western world are garbage, oppressive anti-individual freedom garbage and these laws cause more harm to people they are supposedly 'protecting'. More likely they are protecting people *from* getting hired, not from anything else.
You can't handle the truth.
As I said, I don't pay enough for people with experience to apply.
You can't handle the truth.
Not coincidentally, during Reagan's first year in office, the IRS ruled that 401(k)s could be funded through payroll deductions. Also during his first term, the Tax Reform Act of 1984 ensured that if a company offered 401(k)s, they were available to all employees. Rather than "kicking it down the road," they created an incentive for people to take control of their destiny away from the government.
Not so coincidentally, companies were no longer obligated to provide pensions and Wall Street collected billions in fees from people who had no interest in playing at the casino. Unlike boring old pensions, 401(k) accounts goes up and down with the market. If the value of your 401(k) plummets 50% as it did during the Great Recession and you have to make mandatory withdrawals, tough shit. You should have saved more.
The real problem is not congress, but the common attitude of "I want it all, and I want it now" ingrained in our entitlement society, and the failure of individuals to save for the future.
Let's blame individuals for not saving enough for retirement at the casino when pensions could have easily provided for their retirement needs.
Older workers are more likely to have kids that are either out of the house or are mostly independent. Given that they are out of their wild 20s and have mostly-independent kids I'd say they are more available.
I suppose at some point that becomes true, doesn't it?
You can't handle the truth.
the failure of individuals to save for the future.
Save what? We make only one quarter of what are forbears did after you adjust for inflation against the PCI index. To make the mean salary of a person from 1957 you would need to be pulling in $250k today... and that's just to be average.
Why don't all you old people start your own company and only hire old people? Those under 40 are not a protected class. With all the collective experience you would have you should be able to compete against the big boys.
Also look to how Clinton balanced the budget. He basically dropped all the cash out of SS and paid off the debt. I am looking at getting 70% of what I put in back if I am lucky. At this point it may as well be considered a tax.
If you like to socialize, that's fine. If the business wants to sponsor it, it's work, and they can pay their employees for it.
I'm late 30s and fuck your after hours team building exercises. Fuck that shit. I don't want to hang out with people I work with after work. I've got hobbies and a family that are much more important.
Since the median age is about 26, I imagine that point has come and gone.
Of course, the median age in the US is about 36, but the world median age sits at 26.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You really want to build a team, have the occasional meeting over lunch at the local pub. Really want to find the problems? Same thing. After a few drinks, people will say what they really think.
How well does that work when the person in question is Mormon, Muslim, or otherwise tee-totaling? Would treating refusal to drink alcohol as insubordination be actionable as religious discrimination?
I don't like staying in one place for too long, will be moving again soon, having the workforce split across the world helps. Also I suppose the median age is slightly different from place to place but you are right, 26 has come and gone and 36 too, has come and gone. That's how it is.
You can't handle the truth.
Of course you validate authoritatively on the server. Prevalidation on the client exists so that finding the most common data entry errors doesn't require a round trip to the server and a full page reload.
The Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) only protects workers older than 40.
- protects them from getting employment of-course.
You can't handle the truth.
Older applicants know "team building" is just bullshit talk.
Age-related cognitive decline is a medical reality. It is also common.
It does not hit everyone equally, and it may not have hit you at all. But the reality that employers face is that older workers are much more likely to be suffering from cognitive decline than younger workers, which will absolutely reduce their quality of work.
It is still illegal to discriminate on this basis. But, despite this, employers have a direct and compelling reason to break this law. Breaking this law can significantly improve the company's bottom line.
So if they can find a way to weasel out of this non-discrimination requirement, they absolutely will.
Your user name, maybe...think.
Douchebag.
The point is also that, older workers do see past the bullshit talk.
Older applicants know what they are worth and don't buy into "it's just the tip ". Ruins team cohesion and the illusion of the promise of a grand future.
Fuck you! You have no idea what you are talking about, you fucking troll.
Ha ha ha, user name does not make me Russian. I was Soviet, that's correct, Russian? No. A user name doesn't make anybody anything, by the way. I have many other user name in many other places, think... think.
You can't handle the truth.
I would also advise against doing business his company as well because by his own admission he hires inexperienced kids because he prefers to burn babies than hire a team of established professionals that know what they're doing.
No, the government is full of douchebags that protect people from having jobs under the pretence of helping them.
You can't handle the truth.
Where is the data for this claim you make? How do you verifiably show that anybody your age.. or beyond 18-35 years won't stay 1+ minutes more than you? Please let us know why any worker with responsibilities beyond themselves suddenly feels empowered enough to avoid "staying late". Why does any business plan require their workers to singularly attend "team building" exercises outside normal business hours?
Read up... use Google... hell scream at the moon as we are in a Lunar peak this week. The submission is pointing out that drop-down menus for job positions... and automated systems for applicants have year restrictions that favor the young and all but block those that have been in the industry for more than 2 decades are being pointed out.
Your logic is partially sound.. but with the footing of an eroding beach in a hurricane.
Peace out.
Heere the problem with SS is rampant correction and the system being sed by multiple governments to balance the public accounts.
Then they starting abusing it to give the money that was supposed that we get back for out retirement to indigents, gipsies and blacks that never contributed to it.
Then they had to create double and triple taxation in money that we already had taxes and call it a salary to old people, to pub everyone paying less 30%-40% of the retirement our parents used to have.
It may also be about the expected level of responsibility. A talented older worker will be in a position of considerable technical and / or managerial responsibility. If he / she tries to move out of their narrowly defined career, it may be difficult for a new employer to take the chance of giving them that much responsibility, but at the same time can't reasonably them as well for a position of less responsibility.
From what I've seen, moving within the same industry is not that difficult, but moving to a new industry is very tough for older workers.
An older worker who has lost their job (for any reason) can also be viewed as a risk. Sometimes "layoffs" really are about money but sometimes its a way of nicely firing someone. Do you trust that person to make critical decisions on your project?
Note, I'm one of those "older" workers and I don't like the idea that its very difficult to find different work, but I think I understand it .
Oooooohhh! That dox, tho! Splendid!
You're messin' with my Zen Thing, man.....
By 1990, shortly after Reagan left office, almost 20 million people had 401(k) accounts. Today, they hold $4.8 trillion in assets.
Thus creating a huge moral hazard for Wall Street. Every time the stock markets tank like they did in 2008, they will be bailed out by the taxpayers in order to save all of those 401(k)s owned by retirees. The net effect of this implicit insurance policy is one of the largest social programs ever created.
OK, cool. Send it my way, and you can start fresh.
The current mind set is that if it's NOT the end employer or a government agency just about anything is A-OK... It's never been tested in a court and until it is, private entities will continue to do as they damned well please. Hence Uber-gate like occurrences (I'm talking about running self operating machines without proper clearance "We don't HAVE to! Oops, yes we do. We're sorry").
sigh, we seem to have lost the idea that just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
Age is a social construct. Unless you're hoping to dunk a basketball or join Circe du Soleil.
And remember, growing old is definitely better than the alternative.
You are welcome on my lawn.
By the way, AFAIC if the system is of an opinion that it can force a person to hire another person against his or her wishes then what the system is doing is this: it is preventing hiring. You cannot force somebody to hire somebody they don't like.
You cannot force somebody to marry somebody they don't like by law.
You cannot force somebody to sleep with somebody they don't like by law.
You cannot force somebody to purchase a product or a service from somebody they don't like.... oh, wait, Obamacare and other forms of insurance and also wars that are being purchased with your name on the invoice.
So I guess you can in the Western world to do some of that. That's why the Western world is losing jobs, that's why it's losing its economy.
You can't handle the truth.
I remember. However age is a physical reality. The part of it that is 'social construct' is the subjective nonsense part, the part that is physical reality is the actual physical reality.
You can't handle the truth.
Let's see; that's $240,000 per retiree: Not a lot of money for 20 years of living plus the medical costs of keeping failing internal organs healthy.
When has the government ever demanded people save more for old age? Just before the GFC, Alan Greenspan was demanding, with the blessing of the Republican government (which proved to cynical people that the policy wasn't in their best interests), that older people spend money by borrowing against their house: That's what caused banks to throw their fiscal responsibility out the window.
Maybe it should be changed to a reward for voluntary euthanasia: The government helps you live it up for 6 months, then one morning, you don't wake-up. I reckon the government would still save money.
"Never attribute to malice that which may be adequately explained by incompetence:
I believe in many cases this is likely not direct age discrimination but just naive, lazy programmers and lax QA testers.
It's likely the drop down boxes are a result of developers given incomplete data sets and don't think far enough ahead, or don't care.
I switched tech jobs at 50 with zero problems. The vast majority of my peers (director level and above tech management) are 40+. There's always room for good people.
Age is a social construct.
Really? How old are you, kid?
I don't drink (mostly because beer etc. taste so that I'd rather spit it out) but it's never been a problem.
Ok, maybe it won't quite give the same "speaking freely" effect, but parts of it you get just by the informal setting.
In my experience, most "team building exercises", do involve drinking... quite a lot of it sometimes... following the preliminaries. Sometimes the preliminaries aren't so preliminary, for that matter. We have an office beer fridge for a reason, after all. And you're right. It does build camaraderie and exchange of ideas.
And really... when you're there for a third of your day 5 out of 7 anyway; it's definitely worth finding a job where you like your coworkers enough to socialize with them. I have. (And actually, a few of us were already friends before becoming coworkers.) So I don't mind at all sticking around (or popping down to the pub) for a while to do so.
Imagine all the people...
"We make only one quarter of what are [sic] forbears [sic] did after you adjust for inflation against the PCI [sic] index."
You're full of illiterate bullshit.The CPI Inflation Calculator shows a 1957-2015 increase of 843%. The Average Wage Indexing Series shows wages went up 1321%. The average person makes over 50% more today than in 1957. In addition, the number of 2 earner families more than doubled, so families as a whole do even better than that.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
"Unlike boring old pensions, 401(k) accounts goes up and down with the market."
Uh, your implication is completely false. Many 401(k)s, (which are transportable and allow the owner to make choices) offer fixed income options (although for most, low fee index funds would be better), and many pension plans (which the beneficiary has no control over) have gone bankrupt due to mismanagement or lack of funding.
Pensions are, however, an excellent way of locking employees into the company store, as they are often structured to offer higher rewards for longer servitude.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Well, given that it was only based on your past comments.....
Nope, idiots did it to themselves. I remember that super annoying cringe, when people my age were crapping on about how the children know so much more about computers than they did (and most children knew not much at all) and laughing, pride in ignorance. Well, guess what, they managed to stick that in the mind of those that passed through college and are now reviewing job applications. I would reject most people my own age unless they demonstrated computer geekiness, unless the demonstrate the ability to communicate with millennials and in some countries with horrible records of lead poisoning and still ongoing, looking at you USA, certain at risk regions.
When you take in 100 applications, you are looking for any excuse to drop as many as possible for what ever reason possible to get you down to the minimal number for interviews, less than 10 (having gone through the process on the other side, working through check lists, grading system, rejections and the interviews, more check lists and grading systems, well, you don't want to repeat the whole process a month later, so when in doubt you are out for what ever reason).
Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
The economy is also much larger, so the scope of the issue is not as stark as it sounds. Also it is not as if those retiring don't have savings, in general, in a way which was much less likely in the 1930s.
I am a manager. People in my team are aged between 23 and 27. They understand each other, they share cultural themes and speak the same language. Hiring someone older than 40 would instantly destroy that balance: there would be a barrier between the older worker and the rest of the team leading to reduced performance. Should we hire another 24-years old they would fit in instantly. Beyond 30? Forget it. Take this into account when you advocate taking older workers in: they can't fit in, literally, and when they try they're pathetic. Their best years are gone, their best work is behind them. They know it and the team knows it. Their experience - especially in IT - does not make up, sorry. As a private business we will hire exactly the people who can fit in and work to our standards, and that's it.
"Several forces are conspiring to ensure that many Americans have to work well past the traditional retirement age of 65."
I think you mean "JEWS". Who runs the Federal Reserve? Who runs the government?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcd-yvudYSg
You would have to find somebody that I did not hire because of age
Anyone you didn't hire would likely have a case based on your statements. Not only that, if you ever try to hire anyone again all someone over the age of 30 needs to do is apply, wait for a rejection and file an age discrimination lawsuit. Good luck defending that.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Very well. I thought you could be a team player but I see I was mistaken. I'm sorry for wasting your time and I wish you luck in your next professional challenges. SECURITY!
1956 is 61 years in the past. If you were particularly precocious, then you might have attended university from age 15, so if you can't enter your university dates then you're at least 76 here. That's well past mandatory retirement age in pretty much any locale that has such a thing.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
What does it matter what years you were in college. And resumes shouldn't list your age. If you want to remove the age bias, remove those fields. Though showing a work history of 30 years is going to show you're older, age shouldn't be on there.
Then luckily you get what you pay for.
... and this will only make him to close both businesses and move to China. As if Canada wasn't fucked enough ...
This is a two way street.
As an older employee I have issues working under kids half my age that think their imagined solutions are Nobel-laureate material and you're insidiously deficit for not reading and worshiping their great minds.
I see, anybody born in the former USSR is a Russian, got it!
You can't handle the truth.
The entire point is to avoid hiring in the West.
You can't handle the truth.
but the common attitude of "I want it all, and I want it now" ingrained in our entitlement society, and the failure of individuals to save for the future.
Yep, those boomers, put all their money in the markets and property and now feel entitled to have the younger generations suffer for their benefit.
All the younger people want is the basic stuff that their parents had - an education, a family, a house of their own, maybe even a pension. Used to be one person could provide all that and not end up in massive amounts of debt, but that generation screwed things up and expects the rest of us to pay for their mistakes.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Fiber to the House please!
"This problem has been well known since the Reagan Administration, but politicians found it easy to kick the can down the road." Not coincidentally, during Reagan's first year in office, the IRS ruled that 401(k)s could be funded through payroll deductions. Also during his first term, the Tax Reform Act of 1984 ensured that if a company offered 401(k)s, they were available to all employees. Rather than "kicking it down the road," they created an incentive for people to take control of their destiny away from the government. By 1990, shortly after Reagan left office, almost 20 million people had 401(k) accounts. Today, they hold $4.8 trillion in assets. The real problem is not congress, but the common attitude of "I want it all, and I want it now" ingrained in our entitlement society, and the failure of individuals to save for the future. Sure, congress can be blamed for robbing Peter to pay Paul with SS funds, but it was only ever intended to be a supplement to retirement.
By the time I hit federal retirement age I will have contributed to social security for over 51 years. My employer and I will have contributed over $15,000 a year toward my social security for approximately 41 years by the time I hit retirement age. That's over $615,000 contributed into the system. You better be damn sure that I want my social security money out. I'm not planning to depend on social security, but I am planning on my social security to be used almost entirely for fun things - vacations, electronics to fiddle with, a nice early bird special dinner, whatever. If they're going to take my money for over 3/5 of my life for my 'social welfare' then they had better start giving it back to me! I do want it all.
categories are discriminatory in and of themselves, what bullshit. Anyone qualified should be able to be considered for any job. Someday Silicon Valley will learn the hard way that it doesn't rule the world.
Jesus Christ, I knew that there were laws against age discrimination, but I did NOT know about the over 40 crowd being a "protected class". I guess that means that the only people in the United States who can be legally fucked over on a whim are heterosexual, atheistic white men under age 40 who are not veterans and have no disabilities? Did I miss any further subdivision that might be "special"?
And they wonder why the so-called "Alt Right" is thriving within this demographic? Rejecting "political correctness" and "social justice" bullshit seems like a natural response when you've been marginalized to the point where you are part of a small minority which doesn't have "special" legal status.
What is conveniently forgotten in this comparison is that the tax rate in 1940 was 1% and today takes 6% of our pay.
401(k) values may fluctuate, but unless you bet everything on a single stock they don't disappear entirely like pensions do.
Just wait until the state and local pensions can't keep pretending on their valuations. Don't think Illinois can keep out of bankruptcy much longer, and they're just the tip of the iceberg there.
Many 401(k)s, (which are transportable and allow the owner to make choices) offer fixed income options (although for most, low fee index funds would be better), [...]
How much income does a fixed income generates in a near 0% interest rate environment? Not much. A recent Wall Street Journal article featured a 82-year-old retiree with a retirement account that's 95% in stocks because he wanted to juice the returns. Under conventional wisdom, he should have been 82% in fixed income and 18% in stocks (100 - 82 = 18). Or, since retirees are living longer and risk outliving their retirement funds, 62% fixed income and 38% stocks (120 - 82 = 38). The days of 15% interest on CDs are long gone.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/stocks-have-tripled-since-crisis-but-low-rates-are-still-squeezing-savers-1488969009
[...] and many pension plans (which the beneficiary has no control over) have gone bankrupt due to mismanagement or lack of funding.
Pension plans are covered by federal pension insurance. Who will cover the "mismanagement of lack of funding" by individuals and/or a market crash caused by Wall Street players trying to break the casino as they did in the Great Recession?
Pensions are, however, an excellent way of locking employees into the company store, as they are often structured to offer higher rewards for longer servitude.
My late father got his pension through the union. Although he worked for three generations of bricklayers for 50 years, he worked for three sole proprietorships and a corporation. The bricklayer-owners also got their pension through the union. Everyone had a comfortable retirement because they didn't have to worry about a stock market crash.
That's blatantly discriminatory and bigoted. I'm an older worker, I stay late and have a flexible schedule. I'm tired of being denied job opportunities. I should be paid fairly, but I can't get access to jobs I can do really well.
You see the trouble is that you and people like you may retire in 3-5 years and they'd much rather play the long game have the the young guy who will most likely jump ship for a different job in 18 months.
There is a reason I went into teaching. Sure, teaching at a middle school has no prestige and mediocre pay; however, my friends, that I graduated with, are seeing the method to my madness.
I have friends who were at the top of their game who are now delivering pizzas. Gen 'ers are now hitting their 50's and we have been blocked from advancement, by the boomers, for our entire lives. Now we are competing with the next generation and we are still in those entry level jobs. No, entry level jobs do not value experienced 50 year olds.
Like I said, I basically dropped out of the game, went back and got my teaching cert (yea! a third master's degree). You won't ever know if you made the right decision until you are about five years past the decision. I am at that point and I think I did.
That was supposed to say "Gen-X'ers"
Yeah. Plenty of age discrimination for older workers.
Try to apply for some companies, they demand year of degree - good way to figure out your age there for many people.
Or some blatantly ask for your birth date including year.
Then one is declared "overqualified" which is a code word for "too old"
Then the ACA has its Cadillac Tax. If your premium cost is above a certain amount, 40% higher health care costs. People in their late 50's get 20K premiums for crap insurance with $10K deductible. Cadillac tax for you!
That federal law encourages age discrimination.
Good thing you'll never, ever hire anyone, let alone anyone useful anyway
You cannot force somebody to marry somebody they don't like by law.
Can so, after all, if you are a civil servant, you have obligations in your job, and as marriages are primarily contracts witnessed and sanctioned by the state, those who wish to do so, must also abide by the state's standards. Thus they can tell you that you will perform a marriage for all comers who meet the state's standards. If you don't like it, give up the state's authority. Of course, that isn't really talking about the marriage contract, but perhaps you are not familiar that said contract can also force you to recognize the legal rights of a marriage, even if you don't like it, or the people involved? Is that it? You don' t know how marriage rights apply to third parties?
That's how marriages work, you enter a contract with another person, that contract enforces rights on others. Do you oppose that? Are you intent on depriving others of their rights? Do you oppose people having the right to form contracts, is that it, roman_mir? Do you hate that freedom so much? Does it impinge on you in some way that you can't stand? What is your right to stand in opposition and impose a denial upon others?
You cannot force somebody to purchase a product or a service from somebody they don't like.... oh, wait, Obamacare and other forms of insurance and also wars that are being purchased with your name on the invoice.
Oh? You wanted choice, huh? That's why the ACA specifically allowed you to chose whose product or service you bought, and only with certain minimums to ensure that you were being treated appropriately as well as ensuring that you weren't burdening anybody else when you could otherwise make arrangements for yourself. Sadly, yes, the rugged individualists in the insurance and hospital industry did like to steal from their vulnerable patients, see for example, Rick Scott, the con-man of Florida, who stole hundreds of millions, but that happens in all sorts of places. Lots of self-serving thieves out there. The only thing they understand is being forced not to steal. Same with people who didn't get insurance. They were glad to demand healthcare, but not so good at paying for it.
But if you want to talk force, consider copyright and patent law. Want to publish a book? Fine. Want to publish a book set in Middle-Earth? Going to have to get permission from the Tolkien estate. No others have the right. Going to be another several decades before that changes. Similarly, you want a certain medicine? Going to need to get it from the people who own the patent. Nobody else can make it until it goes generic, and you may not live 20+ years for that to happen. Now you might say, we don't need those laws, but then all the creators, the people whose work made it happen, say they won't do the work again, since it won't be worth it for them if you can just steal the fruits of their labor. What to do, what to do?
Seems like you don't know how the world really operates, roman_mir, perhaps you live in a bubble? What world do you think you live in? Is it the world where you are the pearl in the oyster?
It's about health care costs (and secondarily life insurance costs) even more than it is about wages. Even if older workers are willing to work for the same wage they are more costly to employ because their benefits cost more. There is a reason why those greeters at Walmart are over 65 - they're covered by Medicare so Walmart doesn't have to pay for their insurance. (There are also young greeters, but you simply won't find 60 year old workers in the position.)
Yet another reason for universal health care from the government. Taking health care costs off the table for employers will help reduce age discrimination in the workplace.
The life insurance thing mostly applies to executives and professionals; other employees rarely get life insurance as a benefit. Companies don't offer it just out of the goodness of their hearts; what they really want is a policy where THEY are the beneficiary to protect against business losses from the untimely death of a key employee, but they can't do that without also giving you insurance where your heirs benefit.
The sad truth is that his logic is correct. It is much easier to use anti-discrimination laws in cases of wrongful termination than in cases of unlawful non-hiring. In the hiring case the company can usually come up with some other plausible reason for not hiring you.
Uhh, half right. I've lived and worked in northern Ca since 1987. Age discrimination in hiring and retaining is stated as illegal. However, like many Ca laws they are either ignored or simply unenforced/worked around. I.e., they sound good but are worthless. I personally know of two lawsuits and think there is a third. In each, a group of >50yr employees went before a judge and were told that if the companies could make the case that it was cheaper to use a younger person they could ignore from hiring or fire the elder. Just a wee bit past 50 ( 7 years there) I was discharged from a local utility and spent the last 2 weeks training a younger "consultant" to do the job I was told to vacate. I was told he was cheaper, so I was gone. Even when I told new prospective employers that they would not need to cover health care expenses I was passed over for further consideration. Do companies have the right to decrease their costs? Of course. But, to expect any protection from so-called age discrimination laws is naive.
Nope, not so much about you, just your thinking is why Russia is what it is. Namely a hellhole run by criminals. Which given your admitted USSR background is hardly surprising, what with Russia being part of the USSR.
You're confused, as usual. It's ok, you weren't raised to see yourself, but rather to mask the truth inside a cloak of lies.
Very common in your background. I believe it's a cultural psychosis of long-standing establishment based on historical trauma, much like the Flood mythos or the loss of animals in the Americas, or the Great White Savior. No evidence of a genetic basis has been formed, however.
401(k) values may fluctuate, but unless you bet everything on a single stock they don't disappear entirely like pensions do.
The most popular investment vehicle for most retirement accounts is the stock index funds. If the stock market goes up, the stock index will go up. If the stock market goes down, the stock index will go down. If the stock market crashes, the stock index crashes. As investors found out from the Great Recession, the value of their retirement accounts dropped 50%. If they sold to avoid future declines or took mandatory withdrawals, they were screwed because they missed out on a historic eight-year-old bull market. If this was the Great Depression, it would have taken 25 years before the stock market recovered. Some people don't have time to outwait the stock market.
Just wait until the state and local pensions can't keep pretending on their valuations.
That's a different kind of animal. And the day of reckoning isn't far off for many jurisdictions.
I guess a better idea is to spread the word that anyone trying to work for Roman Mironenko is likely to get shafted given he's practicing typical USA-style discrimination.
Wonder how well that'd go for your business?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Well this is /., so if something is on it then it must be true ;)
As to businesses in the West - that's my point precisely. Businesses shouldn't hire in the West and they are hiring less and moving elsewhere, it's specifically because they are harassed by the government often represented by lawyers.
You can't handle the truth.
I've hired a lot of people and fired some. You, on the other hand...
Dox'd so hard Roman ran like a bitch and deleted his LinkedIn.
And is probably in the middle of deleting everything else he can, right now.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
The court is the wrong fucking place, no wonder you're losing out. You are supposed to take them to the DLSE where they can't bring an attorney and you grill them there.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"Hiring somebody older in the West means hiring somebody who is a more protected class (in terms of government laws) and it can be dangerous for me, as it can hurt me financially and this is where I draw the line."
I assume the same goes for minority races, women, handicapped, etc... I mean who needs trouble, right?
Every law that government passes creates a protected class of people and they are a pain to deal with for obvious reasons, what do you think happens to those protected classes, they get more jobs? Eventually the employers go somewhere else, where they will not be harassed by the government.
You can't handle the truth.
Dummy, I was talking about getting married to somebody, not marrying somebody else. Good job parsing simple sentences.
You can't handle the truth.
Of-course it is correct. Make it more expensive and difficult to fire classes of people and you have just made them less employable as a class. Where there were occasional cases of actual discrimination now you have introduced a system that punishes for hiring on basis of a person belonging to a protected class.
No sane employer would want to hire somebody who can sue them for termination on whatever grounds. Anybody should be able to fire anybody without any reason whatsoever and not be sued. Just like anybody can stop renting a place and go rent somewhere else. When you stop renting you are not going to be sued for 'discrimination' against a landlord because the landlord is old or black or a woman or a hindu or anything like that.
An employer faces constant discrimination lawsuits, is scrutinised on how he hires and fires people, the logical conclusion is that to win in this game don't play it, go and hire people somewhere else where the laws are not insane.
You can't handle the truth.
Well then, now you'll be on the wrong side of a discrimination lawsuit because you've documented an illegal practice of discrimination. You better hope that you never get sued and some smarty-pants lawyer makes your social network postings part of discovery, because that post you just wrote will come out and you'll go straight into settlement and writing a BIG check. Good luck with that.
To the rest of you, repeat after me: "We would *never* discriminate because of age, period. It goes against our core values! Our interviewers don't even *know* the age of applicants until well into the process, and even then they never ask. Our HR professionals conduct regular training on managing age biases. We regularly hire kids out of college and seniors coming back from retirement They work fantastically together, seamlessly combining the youthful enthusiasm and beginner's eyes of our younger hires with the sage experience and learned restraint from our more mature hires!"
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
Gosh! I know! Those civil rights that Western Citizens enjoy can be SUCH an inconvenience to you Job Creators!
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
The second they find out you're over 30 years old, your profile immediately disappears from their site.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Well, given right now Titan Technologies has a Google review where you are screencapped admitting to practicing discrimination... Yup, it's fucking true. :)
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Dummy, I was talking about getting married to somebody, not marrying somebody else. Good job parsing simple sentences.
Nope, your own expression, regardless of how poorly you stated it, was still strangely ignoring the fact that marriage is by itself a right to force conduct upon others.
Well, not so strange, you would much rather exist in a state of denial.
You prefer it. I merely point it out for you. Can't live there anymore.
That you neglected to express yourself in an unambiguous manner is your own fault. That in actuality, the circumstances which lead to such compulsion do exist, only makes your mistake more amusing.
People have refused to do their jobs and perform marriages, and thus lost their jobs.
That your own reasons that you already stated actually serve to invalidate their protests is the icing on the cake.
How does it feel to be evicted?
Ha, find me anywhere I said I 'practice discrimination'. I don't have to I avoid hiring in the West in the first place.
Also I am clearly for the individual right to discriminate based on anything at all, the government coming up with laws on this subject is where discrimination comes from. Without those laws discrimination is minimal, with those laws companies have no choice but to discriminate.
I am for the individual right to discriminate.
I avoid hiring in the West, that's my way to deal with the insanity of the collectivist government.
You can't handle the truth.
"I am for the individual right to discriminate based on anything at all"
So that obviously also means you're an ethnicist/racist to boot.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
No, dumb shit, that means I am for individual freedom not to be oppressed by any government.
Obviously you have your head too far up your own ass to understand the argument of being absolutely against any government oppression while not actually discriminating. People *must have the right* to discriminate, whether they do - that's their business.
You can't handle the truth.
My father's so-called "safe" pension ended up paying out $0.16 on the dollar after corporate raiders defunded it in order to pay for a corporate buyout. His 401(k) has done much better. Granted, that process of using pension fund money is now illegal, but there are several organizations that are in serious threat of going bankrupt in their pension funds because they often treat them like social security where it is essentially a transfer of funds, rather than a true investment, and the increase of contractors and decrease of employees has put the funds in jeopardy. By law (at least in the USA), pension funds are restricted to investments that are considered safe. The return on safe investments has been poor over the past decade or so, so it would be very difficult for a pension fund to out perform a 401(k) that had its money in a decent mutual fund (or someone who spent some time learning how to trade and made good decisions). In many cases, the 401(k) has invested the money in the same funds that the pension would have, but with lower fees.
Yeah, maybe a married guy doesn't feel like cruising the strip joints, crawling the pubs, and getting home 2:30 AM totally plastered. WTF is "team building exercises after hours" tolerated at all? If an MBA can't find a "beer-buddy" without threatening to fire subordinates who won't come along, they need psychiatric help.
I'm not repeating myself
I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
Same as someone else wanting to order vegan when others are eating meat - both sides have to respect the right of the others to make their own choices. Vegans who go "OMG I refuse to sit at the same table as someone eating a pizza with pepperoni, sausage, salami, bacon, and more pepperoni" can go fuck themselves.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
What you describe in your last paragraph is "Stockholm Syndrome." Retarded, but I guess employers WANT employees who feel they are hostages to their jobs.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.