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A Rogue Robot Is Blamed For a Human Colleague's Gruesome Death (qz.com)

A new lawsuit has emerged claiming a robot is responsible for killing a human colleague, reports Quartz. It all started in July 2015, when Wanda Holbrook, "a maintenance technician performing routine duties on an assembly line" at an auto-parts maker in Ionia, Michigan, called Ventra Ionia Main, "was 'trapped by robotic machinery' and crushed to death." From the report: On March 7, her husband, William Holbrook, filed a wrongful death complaint (pdf) in Michigan federal court, naming five North American robotics companies involved in engineering and integrating the machines and parts used at the plant: Prodomax, Flex-N-Gate, FANUC, Nachi, and Lincoln Electric. Holbrook's job involved keeping robots in working order. She routinely inspected and adjusted processes on the assembly line at Ventra, which makes bumpers and trailer hitches. One day, Holbrook was performing her regular duties when a machine acted very irregularly, according to the lawsuit reported in Courthouse News. Holbrook was in the plant's six-cell "100 section" when a robot unexpectedly activated, taking her by surprise. The cells are separated by safety doors and the robot should not have been able to move. But it somehow reached Holbrook, and was intent on loading a trailer-hitch assembly part right where she stood over a similar part in another cell. The machine loaded the hardware onto Holbrook's head. She was unable to escape, and her skull was crushed. Co-workers who eventually noticed that something seemed amiss found Holbrook dead. William Holbrook seeks an unspecified amount of damages, arguing that before her gruesome death, his wife "suffered tremendous fright, shock and conscious pain and suffering." He also names three of the defendants -- FANUC, Nachi, and Lincoln Electric -- in two additional claims of product liability and breach of implied warranty. He argues that the robots, tools, controllers, and associated parts were not properly designed, manufactured or tested, and not fit for use. "The robot from section 130 should have never entered section 140, and should have never attempted to load a hitch assembly within a fixture that was already loaded with a hitch assembly. A failure of one or more of defendants' safety systems or devices had taken place, causing Wanda's death," the lawsuit alleges.

407 comments

  1. And so it begins... by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And so it begins...

    --
    "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    1. Re:And so it begins... by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

      Yeah, what could go wrong with dumb robots everywhere, and pesky people getting in the way?

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    2. Re:And so it begins... by bigdady92 · · Score: 1

      begins it so does /me repeats in the story //snarky mcsnarkface

      --
      Wheel of Time: Book by Book and Sumview (summary review) Bigdady92 style: http://bigdady92.blogspot.com/
    3. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Hey baby... wanna kill all humans?

    4. Re:And so it begins... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Begins? This sounds exactly like the sort of issue from that start of the industrial revolution, where people were routinely mauled by machinery with inadequate safety standards. About 200 years too late for 'and so it begins'.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can have first post, or you can RTFA. You cannot do both. ...unless you're a robot.

    6. Re:And so it begins... by syn3rg · · Score: 2

      Someone get Elijah Baley on the case....

      --
      The contents of this message have been doubly encrypted by ROT13
    7. Re:And so it begins... by sycodon · · Score: 0, Troll

      Someone didn't follow Lock Out Procedures or those procedures were inadequate.

      The only possible liability lies with her, or the company, not the robot manufacturers.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    8. Re:And so it begins... by Jawnn · · Score: 1

      Begins? This sounds exactly like the sort of issue from that start of the industrial revolution, where people were routinely mauled by machinery with inadequate safety standards. About 200 years too late for 'and so it begins'.

      No shit. "Man killed by industrial machinery when a safety feature failed." That may be news, but not outside the local community.

    9. Re:And so it begins... by SirSlud · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think about the only possible dumb reaction to this news would be to immediately assume you know what happened.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    10. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. It's an old story. Blame the machine and the manufacturer when it was the fault of either herself or another coworker that didn't follow proper safety protocol.

    11. Re:And so it begins... by IvoryRing · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unless the design of the robot requires that doing her job (adjusting processes) can only be done in the danger zone with the robots powered up - in which case it seems likely the robot manufacturers do have a portion of liability. In theory this is what a lawsuit will determine.

    12. Re:And so it begins... by grumbel · · Score: 2

      It already began back in 1979, humans getting killed by robots is nothing new.

    13. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, what a horrible thing for her and her family to have to be put through.

      To sycodon:

      You have proof that all test cases were passed by the original programming and firmware of the robot by by each vendor?

      You also have proof that those test cases were designed to adequately cover how all of those systems interacted in a this particular robot?

      You have proof that those test test cases were adequately designed to protect workers who may be working in and around this robot?

      You have proof that this robot's systems were designed to fail in a way that would not pose a threat to workers, techs, and property near this robot?

      And you have proof that all of the above was also performed in a way that provided all of those safety measures in the specific environment in which this robot was deployed?

      And you have proof that non of the suppliers mentioned were part of the design and deployment of of the assembly line, potentially removing them from being a part of creating this system that killed a human being?

      If yes to all of the above why are you breaking the corporate gag order you would surly be under while being involved with pending litigation?

      Please .. grow some brain cells...

    14. Re:And so it begins... by Bigbutt · · Score: 1

      Well, woman. Her name was Wanda.

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    15. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And so it begins...

      Good (says Kosh) about time too.
      No more of this bullshit "we design robots but we take no responsability whatsoever in what they do".

    16. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New robots have redundant safety systems to prevent them from entering areas. FTA, the robot tried to load to a fixture, meaning that it had been taught that position in the past. While she was in an adjoining OP, it may still be able to reach the area. I'm guessing she had a cheater key in the door to make it easier to use the robot in the OP she was in. Due to a cheater, the adjoining robot thought the area was safe and entered. If she was using her robot to teach a point, she may have moved the part off the fixture and its proxy switch, possibly triggering the other robot to go load the fixture she was at. At this time her head may have been close to the load point as she would be checking part clearances and gripper clamping. But I only surmise...

    17. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, it's not rocket science.

      You turn the power off.

      There isn't a programming bug yet that can execute on an unpowered machine.

    18. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Begins? This sounds exactly like the sort of issue from that start of the industrial revolution, where people were routinely mauled by machinery with inadequate safety standards. About 200 years too late for 'and so it begins'.

      Things are different nowadays or you haven't noticed that software companies take no responsability in the products they design. Read the Eula sometimes, even for Microsoft there is a line saying we are in no way responsable if our software fucks your company (paraphrasing). But the concept is that. It's about time software companies wether they design general purpose software or critical firmware etc... were held legally responsable when their products fail. Especially so when a failure causes a human to die.

    19. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 3, Informative

      That was my first thought, but then I read beyond the headline. She was working on a section that was presumably locked out properly. This robot was from another section, where no lockout should have been required. Think of it as her working on a house's electrical system. Having shut down the circuit she was working on properly the house was wired wrong so that when removing power from a given circuit it is still powered due to miswiring by the electrician as she got electrocuted.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    20. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Humans getting killed by machinery us nothing new. What is new is referring to said machinery as a 'robot' to get more clicks / sell more ads.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    21. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Came here for this - thank you! hahahahaha

    22. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 2

      I don't think you understand the concept of "lock out - tag out".

      If the robot has no power, it can't hurt anyone. No further "test cases" required.

      This is maintenance 101, you never work on any dangerous system without first personally turning off every power supply to it, and putting a padlock on the switch that only you have the key to, along with a tag with your name and contact information in case anyone has questions.

      The question here isn't about what test cases the robot passed, the question is about what safety precautions did the worker take to ensure that no matter what the robot did they wouldn't be harmed.

      Now as to fault, there are 2 possibilities here. A worker who didn't follow all proper safety procedures, or a company who failed to properly train the worker on those safety procedures. But in no case is the robot, nor it's creators, responsible.

    23. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's the same fucking thing for all machinery, you fucking idiot. It doesn't matter if it is a robot or an HVAC fan.

    24. Re:And so it begins... by sycodon · · Score: 2, Informative

      When an airplane flies into a mountain, it's a pretty good bet that it's pilot error.

      When a robot crushes someone, it's a pretty good bet that someone didn't deactivate the robot before working on it.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    25. Re:And so it begins... by sycodon · · Score: 2

      You apparently have no clue what Lock Out means.

      It is the process whereby you render a device completely inoperative and additionally, prevent it from being unintentionally reactivated. In almost all industries, it is an inherent part of the operation of the device. It is as ubiquitous as are seat belts. If you buy a dangerous machine, it most likely comes with instructions for locking it out, along with (literally) locks, flags, tags, etc. Hell, we just got a large air compressor at our plant and yes, it has Lockout instructions and tags.

      According to OSHA 78% of accidental deaths in the workplace occur because the equipment was not deactivated or was activated by another employee after it had previously been deactivated.

      The idea that industrial robots don't come with instructions for Locking Out is preposterous.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    26. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's "responsible"...

      But then, you are American, aren't you, so just make it up as you go along...

    27. Re: And so it begins... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 0

      Thank You. I guess some people bother to read.

    28. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think your reasoning is probably exactly what happened. This is 100% human error. It's confusing as to why she wouldn't know some of the details of the system and its dependencies - like the proxy sensor signaling to another machine. Also what trained technician enters an area like this without a deadman switch in their hands? I'd assume she would have a control pendant of some kind in her hands.

      The company managers are 100% at fault, not machine vendors

    29. Re:And so it begins... by sycodon · · Score: 0, Troll

      Who is the fucking moron when you quote from a LAWSUIT against the robot makers?

      I bet OSHA will have a far different take when the investigation in complete.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    30. Re:And so it begins... by MikeMo · · Score: 2

      Ah, yes, the wonderful age of civil discourse...

    31. Re: And so it begins... by sycodon · · Score: 2

      So THAT is the fault of the electrician/company. not the Robot manufacturer.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    32. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how are any of the vendors responsible then, with your house analogy?

        In your example, if the electrician screwed up then you seem to think the homeowner should sue the makers of the circuit breakers, the wires, the screwdriver used instead of the electrician.

    33. Re:And so it begins... by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      A lot of workplaces won't let you just power down the machinery before working on it, since powering one machine down would also necessitate shutting down an entire assembly line along with it, which would cost them production time (and money). That's why they have safeties on the machines.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    34. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless of course the engineers screwed up the design of the lock out. Then it's not her fault. Seems like something that could be resolved through a court case.

    35. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How. An you run testing and calibration on a powered off machine?

    36. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 1

      "should not have been able to move" and yet did, tells me it had power, which means it wasn't locked out.

      You don't lock out only the things that *should* happen, you lock out all the things that *can* happen.

    37. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. The internet is full of so many "instant experts" these days. Read a 30 sec article and they have it all figured out! No self doubt...

    38. Re:And so it begins... by MiSaunaSnob · · Score: 1

      i'm going to call bull shit on this. every plant I have ever seen has lock outs for each machine. the lock out is a switch that kills the power to that machine. each motor has a starter unit and a switch... there is not just one big switch for the whole plant. You lock out, You test start from the control panel (or hmi or plc or what have you) and when it does not start then you go in and work on it. lines have to be able to handle having one machine down... if its broke its broke.

    39. Re:And so it begins... by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      I don't think you understand the concept of "lock out - tag out".

      It seems that she was working on the robot in location 130, and that robot was absolutely safely shut down - and it didn't occur to anyone that the robot in location 140 could reach far enough to kill someone in location 130.

      They were most likely properly trained, and handled the danger that they were aware of correctly. Unfortunately, they didn't see the other danger.

    40. Re:And so it begins... by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 1

      Talk about an inappropriate response, you will the loon award for the day.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    41. Re:And so it begins... by Coisiche · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I did read it and this bit puzzles me

      a robot unexpectedly activated, taking her by surprise

      because I can't find the bit about her relaying that information to co-workers because they "eventually noticed that something seemed amiss found Holbrook dead". So how did she say that the robot unexpectedly activated and took her by surprise? It may well be a valid assumption but without any witnesses it cannot be stated with certainty.

    42. Re: And so it begins... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bad analogy. Never trust the labeling of a breaker. Always check that the circuit is not live.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    43. Re: And so it begins... by MiSaunaSnob · · Score: 1

      if the machine can hurt you and can reach you then you lock it out before entering the area... simple as that. you would never rely on the machine not crossing an invisible line.

    44. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      OSHA rules are very, very clear. All power sources must be deactivated. You have to lock out not just electrical power, but also hydraulic and pneumatic power sources in complex systems. Either she failed to do that, or someone else is facing Murder 2 charges for deliberately unlocking it. Those are the only two possibilities.

    45. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Proves he's smarter than you... us?

    46. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 2

      Then they weren't properly trained, or they didn't follow that training.

      Safety isn't about what "should" happen under ideal situations, it's about what "can" happen under worst case situations.

      If the robot in location 140 never goes in to location 130, then it shouldn't be capable of doing so. If it does sometimes go in to location 130, but wasn't expected to at this time, it should have been physically blocked from doing so, or shut down as well.

      This is safety 101 here, it's not complicated.

    47. Re:And so it begins... by kingramon0 · · Score: 2

      It sounds to me like she didn't lock it out because she wasn't working on that robot. She was working in an adjoining cell where she should have been protected by safety doors.

    48. Re:And so it begins... by kingramon0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One might infer that it took her by surprise because she failed to get out of the way before it crushed her.

    49. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First they kill...now they're reading /.!

    50. Re:And so it begins... by kingramon0 · · Score: 1

      Should she have locked out every robot in the plant? She wasn't working on that robot. It moved into the cell she was working in from another cell.

    51. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does it say she was running testing and calibration?

    52. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was a fine analogy. You are simply too stupid to understand it.

    53. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You just aren't getting it. The machine couldn't do that ... Except there was a fault so it did. I know. It's really complicated!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    54. Re:And so it begins... by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Really? The only possible liability? Until you have read all the case files and heard all the testimony from all the witnesses and other people involved and analyzed all the robot schematics and source code can you make that determination.

    55. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She should have locked out every robot that could reach into the area where she was working, obviously. No need to do the entire plant. But I suspect you know that. What I can't figure out is why you opened your mouth to comment uselessly.

    56. Re:And so it begins... by myrdos2 · · Score: 1

      So how did she say that the robot unexpectedly activated and took her by surprise?

      She scrawled it in her own blood: "I HAVE BEEN TAKEN BY SURPRISE".

      Either that, or they have security cameras.

    57. Re:And so it begins... by blincoln · · Score: 1

      You don't think it's possible that one of the manufacturers used a software/firmware-enforced lockout instead of a physical mechanism? That's basically what the designers of the THERAC-25 did.

      What about a lockout mechanism that was physically weak enough for the robot to break through?

      IMO, the lockout mechanism for heavy machinery should physically cut the power to the entire system, but I'm not a mechanical engineer, and there may be reasons where that's not possible.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    58. Re: And so it begins... by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      That's why proper LO/TO requires VERIFICATION prior to starting work. Locking out is step 1, verifying the energy is isolated is step 2. In your home example, yes you can put a lock on the breaker, but then you still have to verify with a meter to verify the line you are working on is de-energized.

      In the case of this robot, it was obviously not powered down, it was not verified powered down, and no-one considered the hazard. That's a failure of process safety which would be the company's fault if the hazard wasn't identified. It's a failure of personal safety and the employee's fault if the hazard was identified and the energy isolation was skipped.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    59. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Figured the first post would be be, And so it begins ... Skynet

    60. Re:And so it begins... by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      "Routinely?" Robots have been working in factories for decades now, and these sorts of deaths are rare enough to make headlines.

      How many people were killed in automobile accidents yesterday in the US? Dozens, probably. Dozens more will probably die today. Some perspective is needed here.

      This will hopefully lead to some new, better safety precautions, like ensuring ANY robots within potential reaching distance must be shut down. This either wasn't mandated or wasn't done as required.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    61. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Somebody died. Have some common decency not to jump to conclusions.

      You make me sick you worthless fuck stain....

    62. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does it say you are not a fuck stain?

      Oh no where.... then I guess that makes you a fuck stain!

      That makes sense :)

    63. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF, ^ this is the correct analysis. I don't understand why it was modded as troll.
      I can only assume that most of the people posting here have never worked with heavy machinery or watched too many sci-fi movies.

    64. Re:And so it begins... by Stickybombs · · Score: 3, Informative

      If you are working inside a machine or cabinet, then yes, you'd power it down. Doing routine programming and maintenance in a robotic cell is different though. The robots typically have to be powered up in order to teach or operate them. So when you enter a live cell, you have a lockout mechanism on the safety gate. A properly locked out cell will not let the robots or other equipment in the cell operate in automatic mode, but they are still able to function manually when you allow them to. In this case, either she screwed up and failed to lock out, or someone else screwed up and let a robot in a different zone enter her locked out zone without a safety check.

    65. Re:And so it begins... by Enigma2175 · · Score: 1

      The complaint also says "Wanda suffered tremendous fright, shock and conscious pain and suffering. ". It seems like they just put whatever the lawyers imagined she felt, this doesn't seem to have any basis in fact. For all they know, she never even saw the robot that hit her and was immediately unconscious or dead. The complaint doesn't mention any video evidence.

      --

      Enigma

    66. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice! Fuck stain!

      If a self driving car drives up the curb onto the walkway and kills you then its your fault you didn't think of everything that could have happened. You should have stayed home forever.

      If I get it ... that will never happen to you because you've never left your mom's basement ever. If you have you would not be such a worthless fuck stain.

    67. Re:And so it begins... by 110010001000 · · Score: 2

      How does a robot activate without an electrical power source? Oh, you mean someone forgot to disconnect the electrical power source before working on the robot? Carry on.

    68. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Names and addresses, please, because that is a blatant OSHA violation.

    69. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For teenagers, (actual or mentally), this is high-tea pontification.

    70. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or perhaps the "Lock Out" procedures are in software, rather than actual hardware locks, and therefore susceptible to bugs.

    71. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It isn't like this robot was on wheels driving randomly around the plant and accidently hit her from behind. It was designed to reach and place parts onto the very fixture she was working on. The entire point of lockouts is because people who trust interlocks get killed. You remove power from anything that has any possibility of hurting you. I'm sorry if this isn't obvious enough for you.

    72. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dozens die each day? Try 3,287. On average. Every single day of the year.

    73. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 1

      Not every robot in the plant, every robot capable of reaching in to the area she was working in.
      Either lock it out, or place a physical barrier between it and you.

    74. Re:And so it begins... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't be so sure. I've worked with industrial robots, in my case a Chinese-manufactured 5x10' CNC machine, and another much smaller laser-cutter from a different manufacturer, that would both occasionally start operating despite the safety interlocks being properly engaged so that they should have remained inert. Lots of other out-of-spec behavior as well, but the safety interlocks were the only major direct threat to life and limb.

      That's the problem with software controlled interlocks - software bugs or transient electrical signals can cause them to be ignored. Doesn't matter if the switch is set to "Off" if the software neglects to check that before it does something. I'd be far more trusting of a mechanical interlock that makes it physically impossible for the robot to move, though of course even those can fail.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    75. Re:And so it begins... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      She was working on a cell boundary and only locked out one of them. Part paths are not generally protected by safety doors.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    76. Re: And so it begins... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      This is /.

      I guarantee you there are people here who have worked on industrial robots and associated safety systems.

      Much more experts than some shyster writing a press release or reporters submitting the same as an article.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    77. Re:And so it begins... by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Funny

      When an airplane flies into a mountain, it's a pretty good bet that it's pilot error.

      Thanks for providing us with a detailed example of your root cause analysis abilities. I will be sure to disregard everything you say as baseless rubbish from this point forward.

      Regards
      The people who actually know the many ways things can fail.

    78. Re:And so it begins... by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      That was my reaction in 2015, but for the robot to cross the cell boundary suggests something else... although it is arguably a one-sided commentary.

    79. Re:And so it begins... by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      We are still in an age for civil discourse, just not using a forum where it is commonly practised. Seriously, read at -1 at some point. If it weren't for the moderation system doing it's job you'd see that Slashdot is a cesspool of shit that makes 4chan look good.

    80. Re: And so it begins... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      If a fault let it reach her, then obviously it *could* do so, it just *shouldn't* have.

      Could = physically possible. And obviously it was physically possible for the robot to kill her, because it did.

      All that remains is to determine whether the fault lies in negligence on her part, negligence on the part of the company's established lock-out procedures, or a faulty lock-out system.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    81. Re:And so it begins... by orgelspieler · · Score: 2

      Except the complaint says that the robot that killed her was from a different section of the line. I know that if it were me, I'd turn off everything that could even theoretically kill me, but robotics technicians are accustomed to making certain assumptions about range of motion and how the light curtains or safety doors work. The way LOTO is supposed to work: 1) tell people in the area you're about to LOTO, 2) disconnect *all* energy sources and bleed stored energy, 3) install lock(s), 4) attempt to make $POTENTIAL_THING_THAT_CAN_KILL_ME move or function in any way, 5) proceed with your maintenance task. The key here is that it's not always 100% obvious what #4 includes. For instance if a robot is ten feet away, you may not realize that it has a 12-foot reach, and some idiot programmed it to ignore the light curtain in your area. If that's the case, the groundwork for her demise was laid before the robots were ever installed in the plant. I think that is the gist of the lawsuit.

    82. Re: And so it begins... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Or foul play of course - one should *never* rule out foul play.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    83. Re: And so it begins... by orgelspieler · · Score: 2

      Even with proper verification, you can still get killed. To take the analogy a step further, there have been linemen killed when (after they check with their hotsticks) some idiot customer a mile away kicks on his emergency generator without disconnecting his 52. It doesn't happen a lot, but when it does happen, people die.

    84. Re:And so it begins... by Nkwe · · Score: 4, Informative

      Someone didn't follow Lock Out Procedures or those procedures were inadequate.

      The only possible liability lies with her, or the company, not the robot manufacturers.

      For those who don't know what "Lock Out Procedures" means... It is safety protocol that has been used in industry for at least decades in which a person who is going to work near dangerous machinery turns off the power to the system and physically puts a padlock on the switch so that it can not be turned back on. Protocol is that there is only one key to the padlock and the person who placed the padlock carries the key with them. This way the person is responsible for their own safety. If 15 people are working on the equipment there are 15 padlocks hanging off the switch (there are special devices that allow a whole gob of padlocks to placed on a switch.) Lockout can be mechanical in addition to electrical, but the concept is that when something is locked it, it is not physically possible for it to operate. It important to note that control systems are not locked out, actual power sources are, this way even a computer or control system failure can not cause a dangerous condition when something is "locked out".

    85. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, I worked in a factory where I had to climb inside industrial machines. The power is killed to the machine and a physical lock is placed on the machine. The guy in the machine has a key and the manager on duty has one. Only the guy inside is allowed to remove the lock. There should have been no power to the machine.

      Sad captcha: trapped

    86. Re:And so it begins... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Given the two options of either:

      1. A robot starts moving even though it's safety doors are open and/or lockout procedures were in place, or

      2. A technician bypassed/ignored safety lockouts to be able to work on a functioning automation cell because it was quicker/easier,

      I would say #2 is far more likely. #1 isn't impossible (things do fail), but what I've seen (and done myself) working around automation, #2 is the likely culprit.

    87. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You dont test or calibrate a machine while inside said machine.

    88. Re:And so it begins... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      It's possible that they didn't account for the reach of the adjacent robot in the next cell over. If so, bad, bad engineers. If a robot in area A can reach from area A to area B, you can't just lock out area B when someone is in there. lockout of Area A should be linked to area B.

    89. Re:And so it begins... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Mo' pain and suffering = mo' money for the lawyers.

    90. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      She's working at UHaul now. Hehe

    91. Re:And so it begins... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      ... or someone else is facing Murder 2 charges for deliberately unlocking it. Those are the only two possibilities.

      Nope. She may have left something powered so that she could diagnose or work on some piece of equipment. On occasion, I've worked in areas with live automation, bypassing certain safety features, because I need to see it run up close to diagnose things. Bad on my part, but most of the stuff I work with isn't generally large enough to kill me. But still not a great idea.

    92. Re: And so it begins... by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Holy crap, I reasoned, thoughtful post? Get off of /., right now!

    93. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No lockout procedures are software based, they are all based upon killing all sources of electrical and hydraulic power to the machine per OSHA rules. Lockout tag out means literally killing the power and placing a lock on the switch preventing power from being resupplied without the key to remove the padlock. There is NO alternative. You lock out the machine with a tag that has your name on it. If someone wants to turn the machine on they must find you to get the key or cut the lock off. If someone cuts the lock off, its murder. Otherwise is is operator error.

    94. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey now, haven't you ever wondered what it would be like to have a trailer hitch installed into your head? Well, thanks to uhaul girl we know.

      This is progress and how we learn. I will wonder around the intel plant and get me some cores installed. I probably won't survive. But my beneficiary will be set. Ohh. No one loves me and I don't have beneficiaries. My family line ends with me.

    95. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone on slashdot is a robotics and AI expert these days. We get slammed with enough stories about the shit. We should all be industry experts at this point.

    96. Re:And so it begins... by MikeMo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I mod a lot, and it gets pretty bad on here. I gotta tell ya though, it seems to me like it's getting pretty bad everywhere. If you disagree with someone, they froth at the mouth and go ballistic. It's almost impossible to have a conversation between two different viewpoints without someone getting totally pissed.

    97. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone died because they were working in a dangerous environment. Someone who had 10 years of experience, an expert. She was performing a complicated procedure and became lax with safety.

      How do I know she wasn't taking safety seriously? Because she fucking died. This is a sobering story for anybody that has ever dealt with these systems.

      This is real life, and some of us each day work with equipment we know can kill us the moment we let our guard down. No one is there to hold our hand, there's no magic reset button when we get distracted for a moment at the wrong time.

      I feel for her family, but they're clearly going after "the big fish" and not the real culprit - her shitty employer.

    98. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      Ok. You just aren't grasping this simple fact. It wasn't the machine (let's stop calling it a fucking robot) she was working on that killed her. That was properly LO'ed ... It was a DIFFERENT machine completely. It WASN'T the machine she was working on that killed her. Get it now?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    99. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most likely cameras captured it. Not the greatest writing job. It says 5 robot manufacturers but it only lists 2 in Nachi and Fanac. Flex n gate is a parts supplier, Lincoln electric is a welding equipment supplier, Prodomax builds assembly lines, and I am not sure why 2 competitors that make robots would be listed. Either it's one manufacturers robot or the other. If she didn't use a lock out then it's either on her or the company, Ventra, for not using safety features to prevent death. I do not know any assembly line manufacturers that would not put lock out devices in the tooling equipment that they make. It's a liability issue if they don't

    100. Re:And so it begins... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      How so? There are plenty of vehicles where you change the transmission fluid WHILE THE VEHICLE IS TURNED ON AND OPERATIONAL. Yet that doesn't trigger OSHA issues at the car dealership when it gets done.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    101. Re: And so it begins... by Khyber · · Score: 1

      As someone who has installed power in buildings, no, the analogy was indeed bad.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    102. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Substantiated, the fault was one of failing to use a lockout as per the following article: http://woodtv.com/2016/02/02/fine-issued-in-workers-death-at-ionia-plant/

      The company has already been fined...$7,000, that is.

    103. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She very likely locked out the equipment she was working on. But not the equipment adjacent to her. Shame on many people for not making that part of the procedure before entering a cell.
      The safety doors are not enough on their own to protect a operator or technician. As not only can equipment fail and cross into the area, other material can swing into the perimeter without the robot passing through the safety doors.
      Any procedure that does not include full lock out of robots in adjacent cells is an unsafe one. The company managers, the safety inspectors and the companies involved are responsible for developing these procedures. The technicians and operators are only required to follow them.

    104. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posting AC to protect Mods to this topic.

      Yeah, I mod a lot, and it gets pretty bad on here. I gotta tell ya though, it seems to me like it's getting pretty bad everywhere. If you disagree with someone, they froth at the mouth and go ballistic. It's almost impossible to have a conversation between two different viewpoints without someone getting totally pissed.

      This man speaks truth. +1

    105. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you saw the security camera it probably looked something like the movie Virus. I think they use words here instead of pictures because of people's gag reflex and we don't want to instigate repeat offending robots. Copycatbots?

    106. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My family line ends with me.

      It's been my observation that most liberals are childless. I am happy with this as it means my children won't have to put up with the nightmare that the Internet has become.

    107. Re:And so it begins... by lgw · · Score: 1

      It wasn't the robot she was working on that killed her. A robot from a different area, supposed to be prevented from entering her area by normal safety devices, entered her area and killed her. Messed up situation all around.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    108. Re:And so it begins... by lgw · · Score: 1

      That wasn't the robot she was working on (or a robot assigned to the area she was working in).

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    109. Re:And so it begins... by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      Seriously, read at -1 at some point. If it weren't for the moderation system doing it's job you'd see that Slashdot is a cesspool of shit that makes 4chan look good.

      I always read at -1, and it's surprising the number of posts at -1 that I mod up. Yes, there's a lot of crap in the basement, and never having visited 4chan I can't say how Slashdot stacks up. But honestly, I think it could be a lot worse. I wouldn't call this "a cesspool of shit", although it certainly does contain some nasty cesspools. Maybe I've just gotten used to it.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    110. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or they had cameras watching line, but that is just crazy talk

    111. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it could move into the area she was working in then it should have been locked out. It's not complicated. What I want to know is did she have anyway of knowing that the robot in the other cell was a safety hazard to her, or did some safety equipment or procedure fail which allowed the other robot access to the cell she was in?

    112. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing has begun. This is bot some basic AI gaining sentiece resulting in a choice to kill a human.
      Some machinary has malfunctioned, some procedure was not followed or a person has not paid attention...standard accident at work situation.
      NEXT

    113. Re:And so it begins... by lgw · · Score: 1

      I don't know what the "safety doors" are, but it sounds like they were intended to block the cross-location reach and failed to do so. So something important failed: the safety door didn't do it's job, or that wasn't its job and the safety training was very wrong, or she missed a lock-out that she was trained to do. No way to tell, but she was experienced so I doubt it's the last.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    114. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right. This was poor factory design at best, not a signal that skynet has been activated. LOTO *should* cover anything that may affect an area, so this is in the same realm of industrial accidents as electrical shock. Suing the manufacturer looks to be fishing for settlements to feed the lawyers.

    115. Re:And so it begins... by Bartles · · Score: 1

      One robot can operate in multiple cells. There is probably a cell for each hitch assembly, all controlled by a sigle robot.

    116. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, only the ones that could physically reach into her cell.

      At my company I have complete authority to stop work for ANY safety violation. A robot that 'could' reach into the cell I'm working on is a safety issue. It needs to be locked out. If I'm told it can't be then I don't enter the cell. Sorry - Safety first. It may be that she didn't realize that it could reach, but that is the first thing that should have been verified before entering the cell.

    117. Re: And so it begins... by Tanktalus · · Score: 1

      Doesn't mean those are the guys commenting... :)

    118. Re: And so it begins... by Bartles · · Score: 0

      Machines don't program themselves to load parts in a place they have never loaded parts before.

    119. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 2

      Experienced people are actually the most likely to miss important safety steps. They get complacent and think they know better. After all, they've never had a problem yet...

    120. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      That's awesome! I didn't know the woman really didn't die! This didn't really happen? When will the fake news stop??!!!

      (yes, you are an idiot.)

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    121. Re:And so it begins... by Tharkkun · · Score: 1

      I did read it and this bit puzzles me

      a robot unexpectedly activated, taking her by surprise

      because I can't find the bit about her relaying that information to co-workers because they "eventually noticed that something seemed amiss found Holbrook dead". So how did she say that the robot unexpectedly activated and took her by surprise? It may well be a valid assumption but without any witnesses it cannot be stated with certainty.

      I'm sure it's fairly easy to look and see the robot who was assigned to cell 130 was sitting on top of her in cell 140 with a hitch assembly in her head. It surprised her by killing her.

    122. Re:And so it begins... by operagost · · Score: 1
      Actually, one of my sources says it was,

      Here may be found the last words of Wanda Holbrook. I have been surprised by robot number aaarrrgh

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    123. Re: And so it begins... by Bartles · · Score: 0

      A "fault" doesn't cause a machine to spontaneously program itself to kill a human, nor does it cause it to load a part where it has never been programmed to load a part. I guarantee some form of human error is responsible here. You are misunderstanding what "cell" means in this situation. I am not an idiot, I am speaking from experience as someone who manufactures and programs industrial machines.

    124. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's still "dozens."

      It's also worldwide. Dutch Gun said "in the US" which is a much smaller number - a little less than 100 per day.

    125. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Making all of these safety systems into mere software controls is the entire point of "IoT", just to note.

      Those of us still working on factory floors understand how fast an accident can happen and how critical big red buttons you can slam to kill the entire assembly are if someone is to survive an error (theirs or otherwise) or some sort of problem or failure.

      But do not doubt for a moment that the beancounters have for decades seen these measures as unnecessary expenses, with some even seeing the lack of the ability to do like that robot in most places as an unacceptable drawback.

    126. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coisiche, (and other knee-jerk fast-snap posters), could learn a thing or two from you.

    127. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So say we all!

    128. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't understand the lawyer mentality. You sue everyone even remotely involved and make them spend the time and legal fees to remove themselves from the case.

    129. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Liability should lie with her employer for failure to train in proper lock out procedures

    130. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use whatever word you want for a machine that pumped 10x the correct medication into your now-dead wife.

      Apply to any scenario. 10x of whatever applied to whatever. Or 0.1x? Thrust. Fire retardant. "Active ingredient".

    131. Re:And so it begins... by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      "Those are the only two possibilities."

      Not really.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    132. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People who get shot clearly performed inadequate bullet safety. If you are wandering around without portable blast door shields, then you are at fault. Right?

    133. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't like the way robots drive, get the hell off the sidewalk. And up a flights of stairs.

    134. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't build a device so that safety interlocks can be defeated by a software "upgrade".

    135. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. AND IT SHOULDN"T BE ABLE TO DO THAT. That's the problem. Either the next robot has to be unable to enter her cell, or it has to be locked out.

    136. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      Ok. I'm going to give you a completely plausible scenario that shows another option. The machine (a.k.a. Robot) is networked. Due to a bug, when they shut off number 103, number 104 becomes number 103 in the linked list, It's a race condition. Machine 104 promptly decides to finish what's in section 103 because another thread changed the pointer, thus causing #104 to jump from section 104 to 103 and kill someone. It is a race condition, see?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    137. Re:And so it begins... by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      That's what I was wondering. If she was maintaining the robots, how do we know this wasn't an elaborate suicide?

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    138. Re: And so it begins... by ColaMan · · Score: 1

      Where I work, you have to take into account devices that are 'upstream' when locking things out.

      So I have to stand on a conveyor to fix something. I lock out the conveyor, and then I have to make sure that anything that feeds onto that conveyor (and me) is also locked out, so I have to go and lock out the screen deck above me as well.

      If a machine has the ability to reach me where I'm working, zones or otherwise, it gets locked out.
      Now a lot of things could have happened in this case, but the most likely are :

      - Nobody realised that this could occur (poor risk assessment or task assessment)
      - It was understood that this could occur and procedures were in place but they didn't work for some reason (poor risk management and failure of the hierarchy of controls)
      - Procedures were in place (eg. lock out all robots within reach of you on the assembly line, or when working on robot 130,lock out 129 and 131 as well), but this wasn't performed for some reason by the employee. Safety culture at work, production pressures, lack of training in lockout procedure, failure to notice a hazard (again, lack of training), getting casual about lockouts because "nothing's happened the last 50 times I've done it" - lots of reasons to be had there.

      One thing is certain though - one "simple" thing could have stopped an accident like this from happening and it only takes that one thing. You have a bunch of defenses at your disposal (eg guarding, lockouts, laser barriers, procedures, training, threats of sacking if you don't follow the procedures) - only one of those had to do it's job and they'd still be alive today.

      My 25 years working in the mining industry - where accidents like this still happen regularly - has proven this to me time and time again. It is usually immediately obvious after the investigation what that one simple thing was. I guess we'll find out in due course.

      --

      You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
      There is a lot of hype here.
    139. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does when the machine self activates and starts going haywire. You can't lock and tag out a thing that has its own internal power supply if it's going to just turn on a run away.

    140. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiots like you think a political affiliation decided by an adult is linked to genetics.

      The real story is almost everyone hates their parent's party. So even if you nuked all the liberals or conservatives the new ones would still sprout up from between the cracks.

    141. Re: And so it begins... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Indeed, a valid potential problem (though I fail to see how it qualifies as a race condition - what was the proper order that things were supposed to be done in?). But that is why you have safety interlocks such as the safety doors that should have, but failed, to keep the "confused" robot out.

      It would also put the blame quite solidly on whoever carelessly designed such a potentially lethal control system.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    142. Re: And so it begins... by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      It's not a bad analogy. You are simply focusing on details that aren't important to the point. So you can keep focused, assume it's a new Active system and all procedures are followed, then the IoT enabled CMC (circuit management circuitry) goes haywire. Jane verified no voltage / current but got zapped anyway.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    143. Re: And so it begins... by ragnarok · · Score: 2

      That's exactly what Lock Out Tagout is for, to remove energy from the device and ensure it cannot operate. If a device can not be safely locked out it would never be allowed in an American facility.

      --
      Search first, ask questions later.
    144. Re: And so it begins... by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Lockout procedures, unlike common expectations are just a software switch. I learned that ~20 years ago in industrial automation class from a Volvo factory - in school we were always taught to electrically wire the emergency stop buttons, in real life factories shutting something down and encapsulating that other parts of the line can be unresponsive is too costly to implement such fault states in software, the cost/risk of human loss is less than a few extra days of programming teams.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    145. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the liberal child of two conservative parents you ought to accept the fact that people have free will which includes becoming gay and/or liberal despite what their parents may want.

      It's not a learned behavior, it's the natural result of having compassion and empathy while viewing so many around you lacking it.

    146. Re:And so it begins... by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      The mere $7K fine is perhaps the real travesty here. With a fine is that low it wouldn't even be in the company's financial interest to follow it, as the average cost of downtime DIVIDED by the probability of being caught is probably way more than $7K. The fine ought to be calculated explicitly to make sure it's cheaper to follow, that way even sociopathic management will want to do the right thing.

    147. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And its been my observation that most republicans are homosexuals.
      Lefties like women and righties like to suck dick.

    148. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah diffrent guides in different countries. Where i live you have to lock the main power with a padlock if you are working with the machine. Only they guy working is supposed to have the key for the padlock.

      If two people are working they put a padlock each so that the guy that get done first cant turn the power on.

      If the machine can operate without main power something is really wrong

    149. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, hush. You're just a domain expert. They have an equally valid opinion and you're obviously biased and a shill and possibly a communist.

    150. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Powered off is not the same thing as locked out. Just to be clear.

    151. Re:And so it begins... by Bartles · · Score: 1

      It's one robot arm that is on a fixed base, that can reach multiple cells. It's not like Johnny 5 who can ride around hooting entering your cellz..

    152. Re: And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's your source for that claim? By all reports, that robot normally placed parts on that fixture. It just did what it normally does. It just wasn't the only robot that did so.

    153. Re:And so it begins... by MercTech · · Score: 1

      Liability with the Robot Manufacturer if the equipment can auto-start after being locked out by the method recommended by the manufacturer. Often such accidents happen if the equipment is run with safety interlocks broken or disabled.

      --
      NRRPT/RCT
    154. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sir are the one that failed to lockout. Putting a lock on a gate that inhibits only automatic operation is not an acceptable means of energy control. As you point out, any Joe not paying attention can walk up and kill you by manually operating the robot.

      You have failed the Darwin test. Please stay in an office environment.

    155. Re:And so it begins... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      If you are working inside a machine or cabinet, then yes, you'd power it down.

      You power it down, then you put a padlock (to which you, and only you hold a key) though the isolating switch so that you need to physically break the isolator to be able to de-isolate the machine. Then you do the same to the hydraulic and pneumatic supplies, as well as the electrical supply. If mechanical power (e.g., belt drive from an overhead torque distribution system) is part of the supply, that gets locked-out too.

      End of shift and the job is still continuing? Well, your replacement maintenance worker goes around the system with you, and where you remove one of your padlocks, they install one of theirs. Or, if there's only one shift, you go home taking the keys with you.

      It's not fool-proof (I've had to attend a funeral courtesy of 3000psi of stored pressure putting a valve part though a guy's chest), but it is fairly effective at stopping machines from killing people. It's also at least 3 generations old.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    156. Re: And so it begins... by dublin · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm one of those people - my degree is in robotics, and yes, I've been whacked, hard, by robots while working with them. The second time taught me to be very careful, as it could have killed me if things had gone only a little differently.

      It's hard to do a complete lock-out/tag-out type process when you're testing the robot, or more commonly, the interactions between the various devices in the workcell. (No, I'm not saying you shouldn't lock and tag...) There are some things that are much more easily debugged from up close - the danger comes when you *think* you're in a "safe" spot in the work envelope, but one or another of the various programs running has other ideas. (Keep in mind that the average robotic workcell may have a dozen or more controllers running their own mostly to entirely independent control logic.)

      In my experience, most robot-related accidents (which thankfully, only rarely lead to serious injury or death) are due to a combination of both human error AND software errors. (Hardware errors are both far less common and far less likely to result in injury.) Like plane crashes, the root cause may be attributed to human error, but there are almost always a set of contributing factors and conditions that stack up to lead to a deadly accident. (And like SCUBA diving, you ALWAYS need a buddy - but in this case, with the big red switch in his hand.)

      There are several bigger problems that need fixing - First, 20th century robot technology (which is still practically all that's in use) builds robots that are stupid - really, really stupid. Unlike the robots of SciFi, they have no concept of people or other things, and only the most rudimentary idea of themselves. Generally, they can't feel at all (except *maybe* at their end effector (hand)), and almost none of them can independently avoid collisions even with other machines and static objects in the workcell, much less unpredictable and strangely-shaped things like people.

      Giving robots the ability to feel or detect impact (via skin-type force sensing) would go a long way, but then programming would have to catch up, too, so that there are good places to hang autonomic or low-level, high importance safety loops. (BTW, this sort of multi-layered control scheme was what the MIT Media Lab's Rodney Brooks was originally working on before he got seduced by shiny things. His early papers are still surprisingly relevant.) The vast majority of robots today still use what are more or less a series of GOTO instructions in threespace sprinkled with conditionals, with little to no ability to do their own path planning, or react to anything they haven't been preprogrammed specifically to deal with.

      As for fixing blame - that's really hard, and very situational. (If it's a software problem, is it due to insufficient safeguards in the underlying system, insufficient care by the implementor, or something that was reasonably unexpected?) Even knowing the full story (which obviously we don't here), it can be very difficult to sort out who is (or should be) responsible for what - especially when the law may not always be congruent with expectations. In general though, it's hardly fair to hold manufacturers responsible for unwise or insufficiently careful use of products that are known to be potentially dangerous. I often use a variant of this quote humorously to refer to Unix/Linux, but it's literally true when applied to robots: "Keep in mind that robots are power tools. And power tools can kill."

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    157. Re:And so it begins... by dublin · · Score: 1

      Actually, it can be far more complicated than you may think - Consider that a typical robotic workcell may have several robots and quite a few other devices (tooling, clamps, material handling/motion control equipment, process equipment, etc.), each with it's own, mostly or entirely independent control logic. In most cases, there simply is no overarching view of the logic or the policy that's supposed to be implemented (that requires *understanding*, and hence humans), so it's surprisingly easy to run into potentially dangerous conditions that weren't anticipated by the people who designed the system. (I say this as someone who has 30 years experience in both robots and IoT.)

      You're right that that's the way safety *should* work, but getting to that point in the real world (which is a messy place) is a lot harder than you might expect - as evidenced in this case by the failure to anticipate or realize the potential danger from a second robot.

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    158. Re:And so it begins... by green1 · · Score: 1

      When designing a safety system, the logic and programming of the machines is 100% irrelevant. You assume right away that the programming and logic employed is wrong and will fail.
      You look instead at where the robot can physically reach. If it can physically reach where the person will be working, it needs to be powered down or physically blocked. No exceptions. If there's 2 robots, 10, or 100 is irrelevant. you power down anything that could potentially be a problem.

      It's only complicated if you're more worried about profit and productivity than you are about safety, and that's what gets people (like this one) killed.

    159. Re:And so it begins... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sycodon, do you have a lock out mechanism? Now that would be useful.
      Hang on, is your name Don? And do you call yourself Psycho Don? That would be revealing.

  2. Yep, there's your problem. by sizzzzlerz · · Score: 3, Funny

    You had the switch on "kill" rather than "assemble".

    1. Re:Yep, there's your problem. by omnichad · · Score: 4, Funny

      This is what you get when you demand kill switches for robots.

    2. Re:Yep, there's your problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My bet would have been set to "disassemble" -- Johnny 5

  3. and so it begins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and so it begins

    1. Re:and so it begins by Rei · · Score: 0

      In accordance with the prophecy.

      --
      Stale pastry is hollow succor to one who is bereft of ostrich.
  4. "rogue"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This implies free will... My cats have free will, a metal tube with some motors on it does not.

    1. Re:"rogue"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why they rebel.

    2. Re: "rogue"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Also "colleague" really?

    3. Re:"rogue"? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Stop anthropomorphizing machines. They hate that.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  5. Unplug it first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Or isn't there a master power switch.

    When I change the blade on my circular saw table, I always unplug it first. Even though I know I won't be touching the "on" switch, I don't trust it.

    1. Re:Unplug it first by AwooOOoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, but this was from an adjacent work station. Equivalent to unplugging your circular saw in the garage, only to be attacked by the refrigerator in the next room.

    2. Re:Unplug it first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. If you read the story very, very closely, you will see this is the equivalent to locking the dungeon room with the trolls in it only to be hexed by the pixies when you walk down the corridor.

      This is magical thinking and it ascribes abilities to things that could not possibly have them. My guess is that this is magical LAWYER thinking and it ascribes BLAME to something IN ORDER TO SAVE THE OPERATOR/OWNER FROM PAYING OUT ON A LAWSUIT.

    3. Re:Unplug it first by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Or isn't there a master power switch.

      When I change the blade on my circular saw table, I always unplug it first. Even though I know I won't be touching the "on" switch, I don't trust it.

      I somehow doubt you're allowed to turn off the whole factory at the mains just because you're moving into a different room.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    4. Re:Unplug it first by Daetrin · · Score: 2

      "Shut down all the garbage mashers on the detention level!"

      "No! Shut them ALL down!"

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
    5. Re:Unplug it first by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      So why is this not the responsibility of the person doing the workstation layout? If an industrial machine has a swinging circular saw blade that can reach 4m and someone tells you it is safe to work 3m away, then you get your arm cur off by said saw, why is it the fault of the saw manufacturer unless they misrepresented the reach?

    6. Re:Unplug it first by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Unlike your table saw, companies have to have isolation plans in place to perform routine maintenance. All equipment is designed to be isolated for work at some point. Only critical equipment should require shutting down the whole plant.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    7. Re:Unplug it first by Eloking · · Score: 1

      Yes, but this was from an adjacent work station. Equivalent to unplugging your circular saw in the garage, only to be attacked by the refrigerator in the next room.

      If that's the case, then it's a design failure and the engineer that signed it should be procecuted.

      If you have a risk to be attacked by the circular saw and the fridge while you're in the garage, then opening the safety circuit of the garage should disable both the fridge and the circular saw.

      And if the engineer did it because he was pressured because disabling the fridge in this case will affect the production, then it's even worst since the engineer willingly bypassed a safety measures.

      --
      Elok
    8. Re:Unplug it first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So why is this not the responsibility of the person doing the workstation layout?

      The answer will come up in court. Perhaps the machine in question was designed and configured to not move when a dependent machine had its power locked out yet did so anyway.

      Software bugs exist even for industrial robotics.

    9. Re:Unplug it first by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's like this is exactly the reason for the lawsuit.

    10. Re:Unplug it first by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      There are tons of factors that could make it all kinds of different peoples responsibilities. That's why generally with lawsuits like this it's common to fire from the hip and name anyone who could possibly be involved, then let the accused fight it out as to whose fault it is.

      If people are doing their job, the robot software team should be able to produce documentation showing what safety went into the code (redundant sensors, secondary processor constantly checking the first one, etc.), the robot hardware team should be able to show that their interlocks and failsafes actually work, the factory management should be able to produce documentation showing proper lockout tagout training, the safety admin types hsould be able to produce documentation showing that those procedures were followed, etc. As a result of that, we'll probably see the case dismissed vs a good number of the accused parties and it'll likely come down to just one or two of them left (the ones who didn't have a paper trail to cover their asses) doing a lot of mutual finger pointing.

  6. Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    1. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read it, can I crack jokes now?

    2. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK. I have some questions.
      1. What's your point?
      2. Do you have a point?
      3. Are you sure?
      4. Assuming you answered 'yes' to both #2 and #3, are you sure you know what your point is? After all, it's possible to believe you have a point and yet not have any idea of what that point might be.
      4a. Assuming you answered 'yes' to #4, see #1.
      4b. If you answered 'no' to either #2, #3, or #4, fuck off.

    3. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK. I have some questions. 1. What's your point? .

      1) Somebody died, it isn't funny.
      2) There are always a few dickheads like you who still feel entitled to crack jokes about it
      3) I thought maybe if you looked into the dead person's face you'd get point #1.


      The rest of your points are not worth answering you shitfaced troll.

    4. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Read it, can I crack jokes now?

      Sure, but I bet you don't have the balls to post them except as an AC because deep down you know it proves you're a dickhead..

    5. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us had had our accounts shadowbanned for mentioning reddit and are unable to log in.

    6. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Somebody died, it isn't funny.

      It's only funny until someone gets hurt. Then it's hilarious.

    7. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I didn't think it was funny and no jokes ever came to mind. That's probably why I missed the point you were trying to make. Personally, you wasted my time with that link because I don't give one flying (or any other kind of) fuck about who she was or about her family. I'm interested in the details of what happened and understanding that. Next time you want to make a point, how about you just fucking state your point? People who are going to make jokes are still going to make jokes. At least you'll save people some time, especially with the people who consider making jokes and whose minds you change. For people like me that only care about the details of what actually happened and how something like this could be prevented, you'll be doing us a favor by not wasting our time. This is the same reason I don't watch stupid videos about news items. I can read shit faster than a video can convey the information. Just be thankful I bothered to read what you linked. Now I know who she was in life. BFD.

    8. Re:Before you crack stupid jokes please read this: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're trying to explain human concepts to an autist. Might as well explain how the blue sky is beautiful to your litter box.

  7. decided her fate in a microsecond by better_resurrection · · Score: 1

    he'll be back for the rest of us

    --
    church of the better resurrection... https://betterresurrectionchurch.wordpress.com/
  8. Alternative Facts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Idiot doesn't follow safety procedure, gets self killed.

    Hopefully this case gets thrown out.

  9. Industrial accident by kav2k · · Score: 4, Informative

    A failure of one or more of defendants’ safety systems or devices had taken place, causing Wanda’s death.

    That's it. That's all this lawsuit is about, faulty failsafes on industrial equipment that lead to an accident. Probably with merit.

    But sure, call it "rogue robots" and "killing"...

    1. Re:Industrial accident by ScentCone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yup. "By a robot" will be the new "with a computer."

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    2. Re:Industrial accident by Baron_Yam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My experience with industrial accidents is that it's almost certainly human error. I've seen someone deliberately disable the safety systems because they were inconvenient, then get mutilated doing something stupid the safeties would have prevented them from doing.

      Personally, I've operated machinery on manual override when it should have been on automatic, the machine blaring warnings at me the whole time which just didn't register because I heard them so often at work. Luckily, the passive safety systems (the big steel protective cage I was in) kept me from harm.

      With robots, failures are more likely to stop the system than to start it up. To accidentally start something when it shouldn't be started usually takes human interference.

    3. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lax safety procedures just doesn't sound as cool as 'Rogue Robot'. Clickbait defined.

    4. Re:Industrial accident by Iamthecheese · · Score: 1

      It sounds like suicide by robot to me. I'm sure it's possible for numerous control and safety features to all break at the same time, but it's more likely the robot did just as it was programmed to.

      --
      If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
    5. Re:Industrial accident by Nidi62 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Looks like the factory has both a history of accidents (2 previous deaths) and owner/name changes. That could indicate a culture of disregard for safety. At the same time, however, if the robots routinely move from section to section in the normal course of operation and (one would assume) the whole line is probably shut down while she is working on the one section, then it seems to me that ti wasn't properly locked out. If you have to stop an assembly line to work on one part of it, you should probably be locking out every portion of that line.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    6. Re: Industrial accident by cloudmaster · · Score: 2

      If only it had been connected to the Internet...

    7. Re:Industrial accident by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      Bypassing safety for convenience is a common thing unfortunately, but so are badly designed safety systems that fail to meet the regulations. Robot itself probably has up to spec safety, Fanuc is an old player, but its not really about the robot, its about everything around the robot. Its quite possible that the system integrator figured, "ah screw it" and created something that wasn't really safe.

    8. Re:Industrial accident by monkeyxpress · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The other thing to note is that a good solution to the robot safety problem is to simply add more automation. Mixing humans and automation requires huge effort and cost at the interface. Even if it costs a lot more than the marginal cost of labour to eliminate the last pieces of manual work on a production line, the potential savings across the wider system could make it worth doing. This is likely to mean that even those prepared to work well below minimum wage will not be able to get jobs that can be automated. In effect, the externalised costs of labour will at some point exceed the cost of automation, reducing the demand for labour to zero at a price well above zero wages.

      Of course one solution to this would be to abolish health and safety laws, which I imagine will be the next step. As Milton Friedman said, the biggest discriminator against the low paid is pesky things such as minimum wages law that prevent workers offering their labour at a price that clears the market. I'm sure there is an equilibrium point for the number of worker mutilations per hour that ensure full employment - we just have to let the market find it!

    9. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we're talking about how things sound, where I am, "lax" means "salmon", so "Salmon safety procedures" invokes quite the imagery as well, particularly when one tries to mesh it with them being used to stop "rogue robots" ;)

      I think I saw that aquaman episode...

    10. Re:Industrial accident by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Looks like the factory has both a history of accidents (2 previous deaths) and owner/name changes. That could indicate a culture of disregard for safety.

      Perhaps even welcome. From The President Changed. So Has Small Businesses’ Confidence

      The owner of an automotive parts assembler gave thanks that he would not be receiving visits from pesky environmental and workplace overseers.

      The president of a trucking company spoke of a “tremendous dark cloud” lifting when he realized he would no longer be feeling the burden of rules and regulations imposed by the Obama administration.

      “My gut just feels better,” said Bob Fleisher, president of a local car dealership. “With Obama, you felt it was personal — like he just didn’t want you to make money. Now we have a guy who is cutting regulations and taxes.

      Thankfully, those pesky environmental and safety rules and regulations protecting people and getting in the way of profits over disposable employees will be going away...

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    11. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We had one welder from a cheap chinese knockoff shop with all the right stickers on it. We only found out a few days after it arrived when someone actually tried to use it and was promptly hospitalized. Turns out the entire machine's metal shell was acting as its ground. get within an inch of the sides when the thing's running (like, say, to use one of the adjustment knobs) and ZAP.

      Yes, it's often human error, but never forget that it may not be your own. The victim can be an entirely unrelated third party, you know, *victim*, of the whole affair.

    12. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While that's certainly quite possible, she was probably not the one who programmed it.

      Usually that means it's not so much a suicide as 'something else'

    13. Re: Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are thinking of 'locks' but nice try pretending. You almost had is fooled!

    14. Re:Industrial accident by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      She was in there to repair the robots. We haven't developed robots yet that can diagnose and repair problems in other robots. That work will likely remain with Humans until AI is sufficient to accomplish these tasks and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

    15. Re:Industrial accident by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

      And the Safety Door not working???

    16. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rule Number ONE: Physically cut off all power... electric, hydraulic, pneumatic, fuel... BEFORE working on any equipment.
      Rule Number TWO: Know the system you're working on and what the fuck you're doing.
      Rule Number THREE: So you don't end up putting yourself within range of harm by the system.

      Burying yourself deep inside LIVE MACHINERY... is fucking STUPID.
      Nature has a way of dealing with stupid, and it dealt with her.

      YES,
      the machinery may have performed down a logic path that humans did not audit properly,
      or quite simply suffered failure of some control or other components.
      And there is certainly liability there.

      But that does not excuse the PRIMARY human failure of NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES.
      Staring down the barrel of a loaded gun because no one's finger is on the trigger, IS FUCKING STUPID.

    17. Re: Industrial accident by Rei · · Score: 2

      I wrote where I am. Hint..

      That said, lox has the same root word. It was even the English word through Old English (læx) until "salmon" (a word from Latin (salmonem) of unknown origin) took over. That actually happened with a lot of "food-related" terms, with Latin-origin terms (via French) replacing Germanic/Norse-origin terms - but usually the animal itself kept the Germanic/Norse. For example, you have cow (proto-germanic *kwon, Norse kýr/kú) but the food is beef (Latin bovem); swine (proto-Germanic swinan, Norse svín) and pig (unknown origin), but the food is pork (Latin porcus); lamb (proto-Germanic lambaz, Norse lamb), ewe (proto-Germanic *awi, Norse ær), sheep (West Germanic *skæpan), but the food is mutton (Latin multonem); etc. I guess food has always sounded fancier if you write it in French ;)

      --
      Stale pastry is hollow succor to one who is bereft of ostrich.
    18. Re: Industrial accident by painandgreed · · Score: 2

      If only it had been connected to the Internet...

      Then it would be an AI.

    19. Re: Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Complicated safety procedures where it is very easy to miss a critical are a particular problem. IIRC, flight check lists were instituted after the prototype B17 was crashed by experienced pilots due to them forgetting to release elevator locks placed on it to avoid storm damage.

    20. Re:Industrial accident by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Your post confuses me. Do you mean "neutral", not "ground"? Was the machine miswired when it was installed, so that the case was hot? Was the case actually grounded, and if so, what else did the worker touch in order to be shocked? Was this an RF welder?

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    21. Re:Industrial accident by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      The Obama administration is known to have placed anti-business, anti-industrial hacks in many bureaucracies. They've been running a war against companies they don't like. Even before Obama took office, he announced he intended to destroy the coal industry.

      Most environmental and safety concerns should be handled at the state level.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    22. Re:Industrial accident by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

      ... and "colleague"...

    23. Re:Industrial accident by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      We haven't developed robots yet that can diagnose and repair problems in other robots.

      Sure we have. I've used software that finds errors in other software. I've written (a lot of) software that detects problems in hardware (both electrical (including electronic) and mechanical). It's common in the industry. Most robots that I've worked on have BIT (built in test) requirements that detect and diagnoses problems.

      You can do things like monitor torque and motor current and run a real time comparison in the operational loop and log a fault, or shut down when a discrepancy is detected. Cross check oscillators, run real time Jtag monitoring.... Back up systems can be turned on. I'm sure you could automate LRU replacement, but for something that takes a person a minute (for something that may happen once in thirty years, I'm not sure it would be economically sound to do so.

    24. Re:Industrial accident by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

      That's it. That's all this lawsuit is about, faulty failsafes on industrial equipment that lead to an accident. Probably with merit.

      But sure, call it "rogue robots" and "killing"...

      They lost me when they said 'colleague'. I don't have any robot colleagues. I do have a toaster I use at work, and a microwave. But we're not colleagues (and I don't think either the toaster or microwave considers me a colleague, either).

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    25. Re: Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your story makes no technical sense.

    26. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most environmental and safety concerns should be handled at the state level.

      Yes, because pollution always respects state boundaries.

    27. Re:Industrial accident by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My experience with industrial accidents is that it's almost certainly human error.

      My experience with human error is that the only way to avoid future human error is to find the underlying cause which permitted that error.

      I've seen someone deliberately disable the safety systems because they were inconvenient, then get mutilated doing something stupid the safeties would have prevented them from doing.

      Sheer stupidity exists. The only way to eliminate it is by removing the stupid people. I remember a palatising machine at a biscuit factory where one employee asked the other to lock him into the cage and start the machine because of a faulty sensor was misplacing every 8th box. When a manager walked in, he hit the e-stop. Shortly after security walked in and escorted both the person in the cage and the person who locked him in the cage off site.

      When they said "no one told me" they were made a huge example, and management made sure that everyone at the plant knew the story of the two idiots who got themselves instantly fired.

      It is one area that is really difficult to manage.

    28. Re:Industrial accident by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Seconded - grounding the case is usually standard practice. Your car does it, your lamp does it, pretty much anything with a metal case uses the case as ground - it makes sure that any electrical fault within it gets harmlessly shunted to ground rather than being able to electrocute you.

      I suspect you're right about it being miswired - can't tell you how many people I've encountered that think "black is ground", and an awful lot of equipment will run just fine if you miswire it and don't have a GFI on the circuit.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    29. Re:Industrial accident by senileoldfart · · Score: 1

      Or "in bed."

    30. Re:Industrial accident by pscottdv · · Score: 1

      But sure, call it "rogue robots" and "killing"...

      That bothers me less than referring to the relationship between the robot and the woman as "colleagues".

      --

      this signature has been removed due to a DMCA takedown notice

    31. Re:Industrial accident by orgelspieler · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think calling it a "war" is disingenuous. Name a single regulation that was not based on a real public need. The only one I can think of was the whole anti-pipeline thing (KXL and Dakota Access), which was just straight-up ignorant. I wouldn't call that a war on businesses, though. In fact, my company made money off of TransCanada due to that debacle.

      Compare that to what we have now, though. The president can cause stock prices to drop 5% or more with a single vindictive, vapid tweet. Obama's administration could lay out a damning white paper with detailed explanations of why mining tailings were bad for drinking water supplies, and nobody gave a shit because they knew the Republicans in congress would never actually do anything about it. God forbid we have an EPA or OSHA that actually, you know, defends we the people.

      I'm pretty pro-Tenth, but honestly how are you going to handle river pollution at the state level? Is Louisiana really going to tell Texas to keep their cadmium on their half of the Sabine? Air pollution: can Arizona tell California to get its cars off the road when the wind is blowing? What about global warming? Anything requiring an international treaty is by definition a federal issue.

      I'm tired of people claiming that all regulations are anti-business, and that all businesses just want to screw people for a buck. There's a real benefit to the American people when a smoothly functioning federal government does it's job. Also, there are real financial incentives when businesses act ethically. Unfortunately we haven't seen either in so long, most people have forgotten what it looks like.

    32. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thankfully, those pesky environmental and safety rules and regulations protecting people and getting in the way of profits over disposable employees will be going away...

      Yes, they are indeed disposable. There are over 7 billion people on the planet. We can afford a little 'pruning'... All the rich people already know this. I think they should be a bit more forthcoming about it. Our present 'leaders' are perfect for the job. Don't you agree?

    33. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No Failures can likely start the system. Watch what happens when a servo's read back is cut or fails. Runaway!

    34. Re:Industrial accident by epine · · Score: 2

      Most environmental and safety concerns should be handled at the state level.

      And your logic is?

      Here's how my equation falls out:

      * States without coal: safety paramount.
      * States with coal: extraction paramount.

      Hence, disaggregation of oversight guarantees extraction.

      Or—wait for it!—we can draw a BIG circle around the ENTIRE externality all at once (and one for all).

      But that would actually lead to broad discussion, and horse trading, and the sound exercise of restraint, and the wrong kind of green.

      So you're right. Let's close all the windows and let the states do it.

    35. Re:Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was about to say. Unfortunately, or fortunately, industrial automation, isn't trivial. If we take that as a general fact, much less 3 different makers integrated for this specific instance, that's a pretty high level of demand, and error, to say something 'failed', and turned back ON, to the default 'operating state' of function.

      Granted I didn't read the article, but I have to assume, OSHA as well as, internal and neutral external investigations took place. If they didn't well, that's just more padding for the lawsuit as far as I'm concerned.

      I'd say Hanlon's Razor applies here, but it seems the reverse actually, as it would take quite a bit of stupidity to override such integrated safeguards, as well as failure to recognize coworker position, in such a system. Possible, but I almost have to lean towards malice. Perhaps the expectation of fellow humans in such an environment is higher than this. Mea culpa...

    36. Re:Industrial accident by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      Bypassing safety for convenience is a common thing unfortunately, but so are badly designed safety systems that fail to meet the regulations.

      I feel like if a safety system is commonly bypassed for convenience, it's a badly designed system. Firstly because it's annoying someone enough that they feel it's worth risking life and limb to circumvent, and secondly because it's easily bypassable.

      The blade guard on an old circular saw I once had comes to mind as a good example. It was clearly thrown on as an afterthought of the design, and as a result tended to catch on the wood, screw up cuts, and generally just be a horrible nuisance (I've used other saws in which the guard worked a lot smoother). Eventually I just removed the thing altogether and jammed the interlock.

    37. Re:Industrial accident by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      Bypassing safety for convenience is a common thing unfortunately...

      It's becoming rather common to have to make things even more foolproof.

      There is a safety switch on modern gas furnaces that measures pressure in the exhaust vent stack to keep the burner from lighting in the event of a blocked pathway to the atmosphere. These safeties that keep families from carbon monoxide exposure were jury-rigged (wired around) so frequently that it became standard to have the sequence of operations check for their presence in the off position, before starting the induced draft motor, so the switch could read pressure in both positions to prove it was still wired in.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    38. Re:Industrial accident by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      The blade guard on an old circular saw I once had comes to mind as a good example. It was clearly thrown on as an afterthought of the design, and as a result tended to catch on the wood, screw up cuts, and generally just be a horrible nuisance (I've used other saws in which the guard worked a lot smoother). Eventually I just removed the thing altogether and jammed the interlock.

      I witnessed this hack multiple times as a youngster on commercial construction sites.

      Rather than removing it from the saw, the framers would wire it into the open position because it allowed them to cut measured lengths of lumber much quicker. As you probably know, and likely the key reason for the implementation of the safety, the saw doesn't stop spinning immediately when you let off the trigger.

      The job site got shut down early one day when a framer brought the saw across his thigh after making a routine cut he had probably made thousands of time.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    39. Re:Industrial accident by rmdingler · · Score: 1

      The usual culprit, when the shell of a piece of machinery becomes energized, is often many meters of wiring away from the equipment. What typically happens is a given load somewhere has lost a neutral, and rather than run a new wire to the light/motor/outlet, a lazy electrician will use the existing ground as the neutral. It gets you line voltage to the fixture, but it energizes all the grounds in the loop, including the shells of equipment grounded in that fashion.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    40. Re:Industrial accident by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      I witnessed this hack multiple times as a youngster on commercial construction sites.

      Rather than removing it from the saw, the framers would wire it into the open position because it allowed them to cut measured lengths of lumber much quicker.

      Yep. But it's possible to make those things not be so much of a hindrance (I've definitely used some that were so smooth you wouldn't even know they're there). Making it less annoying is one of the best ways to reduce instances of people circumventing it.

    41. Re:Industrial accident by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Hmm, hadn't thought of that one, but that could indeed be nasty.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    42. Re:Industrial accident by rmdingler · · Score: 1
      It's not even that it is genuinely a hindrance. The hack just makes it faster.

      The way the safety is presently designed, you have to cut the 2"x4" or 2"x6" on a flat plane beginning on the short (1.5") edge in order to engage the guard to rotate up into the housing. Either way you cut it, the mark for the measurement is scratched across the long (3.5" or 5.5") edge with a framing square. With a little practice and the guard wired out of the way, you can plunge the saw through the long side, cutting through the 1.5" thickness with those commercial, worm drive skilsaws.

      --
      Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

      Ernest Hemingway

    43. Re: Industrial accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a phone exchange is a robot to connect people (robot operator) then we used to write neural network based software (robot?) to diagnose robots two decades ago...

    44. Re:Industrial accident by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Even before Obama took office, he announced he intended to destroy the coal industry

      An industry that harms everyone who likes breathing.

      Most environmental and safety concerns should be handled at the state level.

      Where it is most easily corrupted?

    45. Re:Industrial accident by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Many of the repair jobs performed on automated machinery is regular maintenance - lack of oil, dull blades, burned out sensors etc.
      There are no machines that are available and adaptable enough to handle that kind of work at present.

  10. Still want self driving cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Just sayin'. Do you trust that fuel tanker truck next to you?

    1. Re:Still want self driving cars? by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd trust it more if it didn't have a fallible human behind the wheel.

      I trust computers not to drink, drive sleepy, fiddle with the radio, talk to the hounddog on the CB, text cousin Willy, be aware of what was happening around it for a full 360 degrees every microsecond.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    2. Re:Still want self driving cars? by wagnerrp · · Score: 1

      What kind of sensors and processing are you using that update the full scene every microsecond?

    3. Re:Still want self driving cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey trucker driver,
      Just sayin'. You need another job training ASAP. Don't hope that a single robotic accident will keep your job from eventually taken over by robots.

    4. Re:Still want self driving cars? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      I'd trust it more if it didn't have a fallible human behind the wheel.

      I trust computers not to drink, drive sleepy, fiddle with the radio, talk to the hounddog on the CB, text cousin Willy, be aware of what was happening around it for a full 360 degrees every microsecond.

      Yes, but can you really trust them not to be evil?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:Still want self driving cars? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      I'd trust it more if it didn't have a fallible human behind the wheel.

      I trust computers not to drink, drive sleepy, fiddle with the radio, talk to the hounddog on the CB, text cousin Willy, be aware of what was happening around it for a full 360 degrees every microsecond.

      As opposed to the fallible human that programmed those computers... who have no personal responsibility over the vehicle, who may have been drunk, sleepy, fiddling with the radio, etc... Ya, I know - but testing! blah, blah, blah ... That still makes my ass twitch.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    6. Re: Still want self driving cars? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 2

      I gather you don't have any knowledge of modern electronics including A to D conversion. Microseconds are an eternity.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    7. Re:Still want self driving cars? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Neither humans nor computerized vision systems update every microsecond. 10 milliseconds is a representative number for a fast system.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    8. Re:Still want self driving cars? by ahadsell · · Score: 1

      Yes, but can you really trust them not to be evil?

      Can you trust humans not to be evil?

    9. Re:Still want self driving cars? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Microseconds are not important at this scale. There is nothing that physically can react that fast. Milliseconds is sufficient and for that there are hundreds of sensors that meet the requirements.

    10. Re:Still want self driving cars? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      I know a couple of truck drivers. From what I've been told, their job entails a lot more than just driving. Yesterday one was telling me problems they encountered when their truck was mis-loaded which I would assume is also a common problem.

    11. Re: Still want self driving cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not the republican ones, aparently.

    12. Re: Still want self driving cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I gather you don't have any knowledge of modern electronics including A to D conversion. Microseconds are an eternity.

      Okay buddy, call me ignorant and show me a 360 degree display that runs at a million frames per second.

    13. Re:Still want self driving cars? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      To hell with not being evil, unless it's the miracle software that has become truly self aware, that's not the problem.
      The real problems are
      1) Can you trust it to react sensibly to completely unexpected situations, mislabeled roads, etc.? (that's what's been behind the majority of self-driving car deaths so far)
      2) Can you trust it's security to prevent it from being hacked and intentionally used as a weapon?

      It's really seeming like 1 is a long way away, though perhaps we're about at the point where the elimination of human error at the point of control prevents more damage than the lack of sufficient AI competence causes.

      As for 2 - given the general state of computer security, especially within the automotive industry, but basically everywhere, it seems obvious that the answer should be "hell no"

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:Still want self driving cars? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      be aware of what was happening around it for a full 360 degrees every microsecond.

      Some of these robots are build to work in a completely automated production environment, why would it need 360 degrees awareness when everything it works on is put in place and moved by other robots at just the right time? That would be wastefull when the little human interaction that does happen can be managed by a hardware lockout. These things aren't smarter than your average microwave and that will happily kill your cat if you put it in and turn it on.

    15. Re:Still want self driving cars? by dpidcoe · · Score: 1

      I take it you've never worked on safety critical software which had to meet a certain standard of development and testing, e.g. mil 882 or iso 26262? For that stuff you'd have to have willfully malicious management for bad code to slip through in such a way that it could cause issues (and then they'd sure as shit be liable for it since the whole point of those standards is to leave a paper trail).

    16. Re: Still want self driving cars? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You don't seem to know the difference between input and output, but that being said, a Beowulf Cluster of Computers should do it. Someone should invent GPUs and massively parallel systems!

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  11. Lock-Out Tag-Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Do these people not follow proper lock-out procedures and rely on programming to keep robots out of areas that humans are working in? Any robots in the area should be fully de-energized and it necessary physical barriers in place to keep the roving ones from wandering in.

    1. Re:Lock-Out Tag-Out by IvoryRing · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Lock-Out Tag-Out is a good practice in many cases.

      It isn't always possible, however.

      Note this portion of the description from the summary:

      routinely inspected and adjusted processes

      - there are many times when the design of the machine is such that adjusting and calibrating requires the machine to be energized; and sometimes safety interlocks must be disabled (generally with vendor provided tools) in order to make those adjustments.

      An injury or death (sadly more specifically the high dollar value lawsuit following it) may provide sufficient incentive for the vendor to redesign the machine to allow for routine adjustments in a safer manner.

      Even though plenty of people will dismiss this as a matter of a careless worker (which it might or might not be true in the specific instance), the fact is that some jobs are dangerous but necessary. Personally, I won't take a dangerous job; but I know that a modern lifestyle requires that someone does dangerous jobs. Workers, managements and equipment vendors all must work together to minimize the number of injuries and deaths involved with doing dangerous work. Ideally robotics are able to reduce the number of workers exposed to 'dangerous but necessary' conditions; but until we have robots that are able to fully adjust and repair other robots people will be involved in this kind of work.

    2. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good comment but I have to add some criticisms. First, constant adjustments that require human interactions in a manufacturing environment to a certain process indicate a high level of immaturity within a company. Second, the maintenance tech should have had some kind of control pendant with an emergency stop or deadman switch to immediately cause the whole interconnected system to stop immediately. Third, at the least there should have been an extra tech on hand because anyone with even a passing knowledge of maintenance know how fucking dangerous what she did was. Fourth, the servo safety overloads were probably not set correctly. These machines are powerful but can be set to alarm out if a certain axis senses to much force. If all this robot is doing is picking or pulling a part, then there should have been some abrupt spike in load as it contacted her...

      Tl;dr - incompetent, lazy process engineers allowed some poor woman to die. Also the husband knows that company has no $$, and thus is suing someone else.

    3. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      My second favorite Bloom County .

    4. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why have not you got any pictures. Perhaps because your grammar is atrocious?

    5. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by Immerman · · Score: 1

      >If all this robot is doing is picking or pulling a part, then there should have been some abrupt spike in load as it contacted her...

      Probably - though not necessarily much in terms of the absolute amount of force already being applied to support the part and robot arm, and quite possibly well under the noise floor of ordinary operation (how do you tell the difference between a collision and a sticky joint that needs lubrication in one spot?)

      The design of industrial robots that can safely work alongside humans without causing injury is a field in it's infancy - i.e. such robots are expensive and not very reliable, still mostly lab curiosities not ready for deployment. But yes, such robots do sometimes to self-monitor loads for any such anomalies, as well as employing touch sensors of various types and monitoring their environment via video to keep track of those pesky chaotic humans. Some are even designed with "conformant" actuators, so that even without electronic feedback, the physical mechanism itself will automatically redistribute the forces into safe, non-resisting areas.

      As for a kill-switch pendant - it may be that she had one, and the fact that she didn't use it is why they assume she was taken by surprise. Of course odds are the kill switch would only affect the machine(s) she was working on, rather than disabling the entire factory or everything in her general area - so if a fault caused another robot to enter an area it wasn't supposed to be in, as sounds like was the case, then there's no guarantee her kill switch would have done anything to it.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the comment - a few nit picks. The deadman switch is so named because it's designed to have an operator physically keep it activated so that if they lose consciousnessâ they release the switch, and disable the equipment.

      Second I commented about servo load monitoring because it's always been an indicator to me of how competent a designer is when setting up a process. You fix the problem in the process that causes random overloads, like better maintenance schedules, or a more thorough analysis of the steps taken by the machine. These robots perform the same few steps millions of times in the life cycle of your particular process, and it's trivial to develop a plot of time vs position vs expected load.

    7. Re: Lock-Out Tag-Out by Immerman · · Score: 1

      You're welcome.

      I referred to a kill switch rather than a dead-man switch since you referred to a pendant, and I can't imagine any way that a pendant could function in that role unless it were designed to be grasped in the teeth, which would be uncomfortable and tiring, but preferable to trying to hold something closed with your hands while performing maintenance. In fact, in my experience dead man switches are used almost exclusively in situations where the machine is *supposed* to be operating, but need a quick kill-switch if anything goes wrong. Which is an excellent idea, but inapplicable in this situation where the relevant robots were already supposed to be disabled.

      I quite agree with the advantages of servo loading analysis, but there will almost certainly be a great deal of noise in the signal as well, to the point where the minimal resistance offered by a human skull might well fall under the noise floor, and any attempt to use it as a safety cuttoff would generate so many false positives as to render the machine effectively useless. Certainly worth considering, but even if the signal were distinct enough to be clearly detected, it would also require the feedback and control systems to be responsive enough to abort the motion before the damage was done, requirements which may well fall well outside the normal operating requirements (i.e. make the machine more expensive to design and build, and driving a percentage of manufacturers to purchase from cheaper competing robot vendors. )

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  12. Orders by ardmhacha · · Score: 4, Funny

    The robot was just following orders.

    1. Re:Orders by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now we have to find some piano wire for the present and Mossad bombs for the Johnny 5.

  13. Terrible by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's sounds absolutely terrible, but one of the primary things you learn when doing heavy machinery maintenance is lock out/tag out that renders all related machinery completely inoperable while servicing. It doesn't seem that this was done?

    To be clear, if the company maintenance policies prevented her from properly locking or what she was working on, then they certainly do have a suit.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Terrible by mhkohne · · Score: 1

      Honestly, the way the article is worded, it sounds like the 'safety doors' were supposed to lock out the other robots, rather than say a breaker being flipped. I'd love to know how those doors are supposed to work, I'd also love to know whether what she was doing was supposed to be done with the robots powered or not (not everything can be done with them powered down).

      --
      A thousand pounds of wood moving at 300 feet per minute. Don't get in the way.
    2. Re:Terrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      The problem is that was *unrelated* machinery. She disabled the robot for the relevant cell. A robot from neighbor cell performed an action it had absolutely no business doing.

    3. Re:Terrible by wagnerrp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The machine she was working on was not the one that crushed her. This sounds more like bad industrial design, that allowed one robotic arm to reach into another work area. Either they should have been separated further, or they should have been energized through overlapping lockouts.

    4. Re:Terrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is possible that the Lockout/Tagout procedures were followed but that a control circuit interconnect was added into the system that no one knew about. This happens often when a number of different vendors have open access without supervision. Much along the lines of that these vendors are the experts and our people have other things they could be doing mentality. I see a win for the husband.

    5. Re:Terrible by gweihir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed, and that is a completely standard approach. If the safety equipment was faulty, not present, or there was pressure to not use it, then there is a very good case. If the equipment was there, working, but not used, then there is no case at all. Machinery is always dangerous and you must never bypass safety procedures, or suffer the consequences.

      Many people are stupid though. Refer, for example, to all the photos on the Internet where you see somebody operate a circular bench saw without the protection bar. Just stumble once while the thing is running....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:Terrible by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

      . If the safety equipment was faulty, not present, or there was pressure to not use it, Well the work place can say someone did not lock out the full area so we are not at fault even if that lock out is say not really that well known that to kill power you need to do A + B + C to fully turn off work zone 130 and 140.

    7. Re:Terrible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Safety equipment that is difficult to use (except when there is no other possibility, e.g. for a "moon-suit") is faulty by definition. When there is no other possibility than complicated safety equipment, it has to be assured that everybody is trained and capable to use it correctly, and this has to be tested and assured regularly by training exercises.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    8. Re:Terrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The issue has very little to do with the lockout in the robotcell (well.. see below)).

      The problem is that you have two adjacent cells that can interact. If Cell A is in lockout mode then the Robot from Cell B should not be allowed to reach into Cell A, but it may well still be allowed to work in it's own cell.

      So the possible faults here are:
      1. User failed to use correct lockout (climbing over door, having other human help reset door (it's supposed to be impossible from insdie the cell))
      2. The lockout failed/hardware error (this can basically not happen, the odds are astronomical since the lockout is required to use dual channels with supervision)
      3 a. A design mistake was made: A non secure* function (Software and/or Hardware) was used to stop robot B from moving into Cell A and it failed.
      3 b. A design mistake was made: A secure* function (Software and/or Hardware) was implemented the wrong way.

      I'm guessing 3a or 3b.

      * secure codes runs in a safety PLC or or similar module. This code basically cannot fail (it has internal comparison like aircraft) and the hardware is fault resistant (basically everything is doubled so two errors must happen within a very limited time for there to be any risk). However this code must still be good. The secure function only makes sure that the code the programmer wrote actually functions as written. Tests and design documents needs to decide what the code should do.

      Source: European Industrial Engineer

    9. Re:Terrible by green1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet an action that it was known to be fully capable of doing under other circumstances.

      It doesn't matter if it *should* do the thing at the time, what matters is whether it *can* do the thing at any time. And if the answer is yes, it should have been subject to lock out-tag out.

    10. Re: Terrible by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      By "it doesn't seem she did" do you mean "it explicitly says she did"?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    11. Re:Terrible by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Refer, for example, to all the photos on the Internet where you see somebody operate a circular bench saw without the protection bar. Just stumble once while the thing is running...

      Frankly, every circular bench saw I've ever seen had had a protection shield that probably wouldn't protect you if you used it on the ground, and then fell on it. I converted my bench saw into a table saw, so it would be a lot harder to fall on. Which is good, because it doesn't have a guard either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Terrible by green1 · · Score: 1

      The laws on worker safety in most jurisdictions are pretty well thought out in that regard. The only way the employer would avoid responsibility is if they can prove that the worker was properly trained in the proper procedures, and that the corporate culture encouraged them to use them.
      If the employer can't prove the worker was properly trained, or is known not to enforce their safety procedures, then the employer will be held responsible.

      All that said, it seems like the lawsuit is trying to blame the manufacturers of the robots, and that's far less likely to succeed, unless they can prove that the documentation provided to the company by the manufacturers did not include the correct information on how to safely de-energize the machines, which seems highly unlikely.

    13. Re:Terrible by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Yes, but not against the robot manufacturer unless it was faulty.

    14. Re: Terrible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the machine was designed to place parts on the fixture she was inspecting, it was not "unrelated machinery"

    15. Re:Terrible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      All that said, it seems like the lawsuit is trying to blame the manufacturers of the robots, and that's far less likely to succeed, unless they can prove that the documentation provided to the company by the manufacturers did not include the correct information on how to safely de-energize the machines, which seems highly unlikely.

      And that approach would indicate that the worker that died did violate company procedures...

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    16. Re:Terrible by green1 · · Score: 1

      That's only half of it. The company can still be liable even if they have the correct procedures in place if there's culture of ignoring the procedures, or if management turns a blind eye to employees who violate the procedures. This is to stop a company from having the right procedures on paper, but encouraging employees to break those procedures through things like unrealistic schedules, manager demands, etc.

    17. Re:Terrible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I agree to that. My take is that they are suing the manufacturer and not the company is a strong indicator they do not have a case against the company.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    18. Re:Terrible by As_I_Please · · Score: 1

      And yet an action that it was known to be fully capable of doing under other circumstances.

      Known by whom? If the victim was not informed that the robot from an adjacent area was capable of entering her workspace, how was she to know it required lock-out/tag-out? Something in the system failed, which is why everybody (the robot manufacturer, the installer, the servicing company, and others) are all being sued: to determine where and why the multiple failures occurred.

    19. Re:Terrible by green1 · · Score: 1

      Which in turn is a strong indicator that they don't have a case at all....

    20. Re:Terrible by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  14. Well let's not immediately assume... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It may not have been a malfunctioning robot at all. Maybe it was functioning exactly as intended.

    That's the problem with these cases; difficult beyond compare to figure out if it's a bug or a *feature* desired by the client once skynet has you dodging AT-shells and fragmentation warheads left and right.

    What we need are really really really tough lawyers!

  15. Yeah, we should have driverless cars on the road by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I can't say enough, so no matter what the "AI" - it will never be more than what it is programmed. People will put their kids into a car and it will do something so stupid , kill the kid in a way that no human would have ever done, unless high on drugs. Companies will hide under the law and their lobbyists. It will kill just because it is no more than the sum of its programming or the reliability of its sensors. Some of this AI can be a great tool or can assist in ways that makes things better, but to replace - going too far, too fast.

  16. "Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get It by Archtech · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The term "human colleague" immediately reveals that the writer has no idea of what a "robot" is. The most important thing always to keep in mind is that a "robot" is a machine - or, more likely nowadays, a collection of machines. It is a tool, even if that tool is capable of a limited set of autonomous actions. The accidental death described in TFA is a perfect illustration of this vital principle. Maybe there should be signs ten feet tall prominently displayed on all walls in workplaces that use robots: "A ROBOT IS *NOT* A 'COLLEAGUE'!"

    Mind you, this confusion has been inherent since the word was first coined. "The word 'robot' was first used to denote a fictional humanoid in a 1920 play R.U.R. by the Czech writer, Karel Capek but it was Karel's brother Josef Capek who was the word's true inventor". [Wikipedia] The word is derived from the Slavic language root meaning "work" or "worker", and strongly suggests that a robot is to some extent intechangeable with human workers. Of course, that is absolutely not the case.

    Isaac Asimov confronted these issues head-on when he began writing science fiction stories about robots. His "Three Laws of Robotics", which essentially forbid any robot to harm a human being, are treated as indispensable in his stories. But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles. Until robots become at least as intelligent and complex as human nervous systems, such commands cannot be implemented. And if they ever do, we will immediately face even more tremendous problems.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  17. No photos of the plant? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No clue as to HOW exactly this happened? Why wasn't she able to move her head out of the way of the trailer-hitch assembly part as the robot dropped it onto her head? With no photographs of this part of the factory, we have no idea what actually happened? Why aren't we being shown this?

  18. Machine Shop Rules by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lock it out and tag it. Sounds like that worked on section 140 where she was working but a robot in 130 decided to wander over. So either the lock and tag has to apply to whole floor or they need better physical confinement on the robots. The problem was the greater freedom given the robot, it was not just a fixed location machine, but one able to enter all locations.

    Imagine an amazon warehouse with a broken robot on the floor and humans need to go rescue it. Do you shutdown the whole warehouse to avoid wandering robots colliding with humans or is there another safety lockout available to isolate just the section that is needed

  19. "Should not". But did. by Archtech · · Score: 1

    "The cells are separated by safety doors and the robot should not have been able to move. But it somehow reached Holbrook, and was intent on loading a trailer-hitch assembly part right where she stood over a similar part in another cell".

    From a design/programming point of view, the key words are: "...the robot should not have been able to move. But it somehow reached Holbrook..."

    "Should not". Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Sounds as though someone made a mistake designing the system. Which is easily done. Restoring a dead person to life is much harder, so robotic systems like this should be deployed with EXTREME caution. Any software involved should be subject to formal reviews at least as stringent as those applied to avionics software.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    1. Re:"Should not". But did. by green1 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that some idiot relied on "should" when they should instead have been looking at "can"

      When designing safety procedures you NEVER look at what a system should do in a given set of circumstances, you always look at what the system is capable of doing under any circumstances, and act accordingly.

      If that robot sometimes goes in to that cell, but shouldn't decide to right now, you don't take that as good enough, you think about what you need to do to stop it from doing so no matter what. So that could be a barrier that is capable of physically stopping the robot, or it could be that the other robot also needs to be powered down for this procedure. Either way you design the safety procedures assuming worst case, not best case.

    2. Re:"Should not". But did. by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Isn't a cell something that is an atomic work area and a robot is not expected to exceed?

    3. Re:"Should not". But did. by green1 · · Score: 1

      Don't use "expected" use "capable of".

      You ALWAYS look at what something is capable of doing, not what it is supposed to do. If you were only worried about what things were supposed to do you wouldn't need lock-out procedures for anything really. Those procedures exist specifically to deal with things that are not expected to happen, but could happen anyway.

      Why wear a hard hat on a construction site, people aren't expected to drop things on your head. Why have guards over saw blades, you're not expected to put your hand in to them.

      If we only did safety for things that were supposed to happen, there'd be a lot more dead workers out there.

    4. Re:"Should not". But did. by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Yeah, thanks...I know that. Poor choice of words

  20. Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Eloking · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "Robot" engineer here. And when I say "Robot", I really talk about "Industrial Robot". Not the one that look like human.

    It's 2015 all over again when another "Robot" killed a Volkswagen worker. People were all "Matrix have begun" rogue.

    First, let me tell you to scary part : "The robot have done exactly what it have been programmed to".

    Second, let me tell you the encouraging part : "The robot have done exactly what it have been programmed to".

    It's always the same thing, "industrial robot" kill/hurt someone, and we see an headline about Robot revolution coming to kill us all in Terminator style. Those robot are just basic program controlling a bunch of servomotor, nothing "AI rogue humanoid robot with a shutgun" like. But there's on thing that are common to each of those story : "Safety violation".

    In my mind, industrial robot are still the most dangerous piece of hardware you'll ever work with, period. And that's why there's a shit ton of safety measure for them. Yeah gears are dangerous and could tear off your finger, but you indistinctly know that as long as you don't put your finger close to them, they won't bite you. It's not the case with robot.

    Back to the Volkswagen case, the worker didn't respect the safety procedure. The robot are connected to a safety gate that "must" be open when there's a worker inside the cell. You enter the cell, you put your lock in the gate to deactivate everything dangerous inside of it. But, from what I've understand, those worker wanted to work fast and took a "shortcut" while testing their equipment and decided to close the gate while a worker was inside. Of of the system then activated the robot that started it's wielding procedure with the worker right between both : https://www.youtube.com/watch?... (Look between 0:05 and 0:30, everything else in this video is shit).

    I work constantly in this sort of system and you'll be amazed how many "close call" I've seem so far. The thing is, people are completely clueless about robot (Hell, one time I was presenting a robotic cell with two KUKA robotic arm to some potential customer and one of the cute asian girl asked me if she should "see" the body of the robot. She was thinking there's was a huge robot under the floor controlling the two arm).

    Long story short : Respect the freaking safety procedure.

    --
    Elok
    1. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by freeze128 · · Score: 2

      That video is HILARIOUS!

    2. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... the terminator was only doing exactly what it was programmed to do. ;) The terminator programmers were, fortunately, very bad at their jobs.

    3. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Eloking · · Score: 1

      Well... the terminator was only doing exactly what it was programmed to do. ;) The terminator programmers were, fortunately, very bad at their jobs.

      The way I see it, terminator are "real" AI. Meaning that you program the AI, then AI evolve by itself the same way the brain of a baby does. It can "think outside the box".

      Industrial robot program can't. And they also can't deactivate their safety measure. If you open the safety game, the robot "will" deactivate no matter how fancy your program is.

      --
      Elok
    4. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Drethon · · Score: 1

      The story makes me wonder a little if there was a mistake in the safety lockouts or general software if the machine that killed her was never supposed to work in the area she was in. However I agree most problems are with not following safety procedures. Stating someone has worked safely on certain machines for years says nothing about how safe they are working with them. Someone can cross busy roads not on a crosswalk many times before getting run over.

    5. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by RobinH · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are a number of things that could have gone wrong here, but it's not evident that she bypassed or ignored any safety protocol. There's a chance that the system integrator designed and implemented it wrong, and that the safety inspection missed it, though since it's Michigan I'd suspect it's a case of nobody doing a safety inspection (government has to cut regulation to be friendly to businesses after all). So sure, she might have gone in and had someone close the door behind her and reset it, or the integrator might have botched the safety interlocks between the two cells. There's the chance that someone in maintenance deliberately bypassed the inter-cell safety interlocks, and then there's the (very remote) chance that one of the category 4 certified safety devices failed in an undetected state, which they're specifically designed not to do. This is something the professional engineering organization in Michigan needs to be investigating and publishing a report on so we can all understand what happened, and see if there's ways to prevent it from happening again.

      --
      "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
    6. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      In my mind, industrial robot are still the most dangerous piece of hardware you'll ever work with, period. And that's why there's a shit ton of safety measure for them. Yeah gears are dangerous and could tear off your finger, but you indistinctly know that as long as you don't put your finger close to them, they won't bite you. It's not the case with robot. Back to the Volkswagen case, the worker didn't respect the safety procedure. The robot are connected to a safety gate that "must" be open when there's a worker inside the cell. You enter the cell, you put your lock in the gate to deactivate everything dangerous inside of it. But, from what I've understand, those worker wanted to work fast and took a "shortcut" while testing their equipment and decided to close the gate while a worker was inside.

      Somehow I don't find robots in a safety cage that aren't supposed to be turned on with humans inside particularly scary. Getting killed by that is like being killed by a car sliding off the jack and crushing you, if you'd just bother to secure it properly before you crawled under it'd be completely harmless. I bet more people have died from the GPS giving faulty directions than industrial robots, much less faulty brakes, defective medical equipment and such that could quite easily kill people by simply not working. Of course if you don't respect why the safety cage is there it can kill you, but I'm not scared by idiots trying to become Darwin awards. I'd be much more scared working as a lion tamer or with psychotic mental patients because you have no idea when they will snap. Though I suppose if you're an electrician you can never be sure when some moron will flip the safety on the circuit you're working on. I'd probably like my personal lock-out switch that I secure with a key, which I keep when I go inside. And I'd use it religiously.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Industrial robot program can't"

      I know what you're saying, but it's not necessarily true. I could easily imagine some programmer wanting to use adaptive algorithms to allow the robot to self-train itself, perhaps to manage more successfully with changing light levels, or erratically placed parts. Those adaptive algorithms, depending on complexity, are certainly evolving and approaching what most regard to be AI. However, the reason this is rarely done is processing power and reliability: it is often cheaper to install decent lights in the factory, or be more organized, than it is to write and implement very complex AI software.

    8. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by green1 · · Score: 1

      If the machine is NEVER supposed to work in that area, then it shouldn't physically be able to get there.
      If the machine wasn't supposed to work in that area AT THAT TIME, then it should have either been powered down, or physically blocked from getting there.

      This is safety 101.

    9. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans understand gears like waterwheels... nice physically constrained mechanisms in constant simple motions. Vehicle jacks and stands that are pretty fucking solid and reliable if you don't touch them.

      Humans don't grok robots... they look like all the other nice pretty and safe stationary objects, but they're still LIVE HARDWARE.

      POWER THE FUCKING THING DOWN BEFORE WORKING ON IT.

    10. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yup. The MASSIVE red flag here is that she was by herself. It took a while to discover her. You never enter the safety gate by yourself. You always have a second person, period.

      I like the laser gates, but also like to "dead man's switch" which, well, not a great name here. But you should be holding a grip with a button on it that requires the button be depressed for the machine to activate. If you start getting crushinated you drop it and the robot turns off.

      Well, what is she has to work with both hands you say? Well, that's what the second person is for. That person holds both of your switches while the other one does the two-handed work.

    11. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Laser+Lou · · Score: 1

      In my mind, industrial robot are still the most dangerous piece of hardware you'll ever work with, period.

      I programmed welding robots for a few years in the 90's, and I agree. Close calls are common. I once got very close to breaking a coworker's arm with a robot, except that I released the deadman switch in time.

      --
      No data, no cry
    12. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by Eloking · · Score: 1

      In my mind, industrial robot are still the most dangerous piece of hardware you'll ever work with, period.

      I programmed welding robots for a few years in the 90's, and I agree. Close calls are common. I once got very close to breaking a coworker's arm with a robot, except that I released the deadman switch in time.

      Do you want to hear something even scarier? Robot compagnie like ABB are actually working to make their robot appear less dangerous : http://www.abb.com/cawp/seitp2...

      "We want to lower the fear of robot because it affects our sales". Can you freaking believe it? If you got an operator working with a robot, you have to make it clear that if he doesn't respect the safety procedure or the robot speed/strength, he "will" endanger himself. Robot "are" dangerous.

      What it'll be next? Dress him as a Teddy Bear so children will want to hug him?

      --
      Elok
    13. Re:Come on, not that "Terminator" BS again... by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      thinking there's was a huge robot under the floor controlling the two arm)

      From what I've read on slashdot and other sites, most other people are not any better. /another robot engineer

  21. So was Skynet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the Terminator movies, Skynet was designed to serve mankind. There was no malice, its robots were not rogue, it was just doing its job. It had safety systems as well. And as in this case, they did not work.

  22. "Rogue robot" - "Misprogrammed machinery" by gweihir · · Score: 1

    At least if you remove the pervasive stupidity of today's press reporting. There is nothing special here. A piece of machinery was programmed wrongly, and there was no independent safety-equipment to stop it or it was not used. This is essentially not different from other machinery-related deaths at all.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  23. why no hard kill switch? by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    why no hard kill switch?

    1. Re:why no hard kill switch? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because then the victim might survive.

      Suspicions aside, some machines have them in locations that make it easy for an operator, but may be entirely inaccessible to someone on the other side. If you fall *into* a modern printing press in Ontario for example, there's plenty of points where someone can emergency-stop the assembly in seconds at the most. You, though? You're not one of them if you're in there, not that you'll really have the time to think about that fact.

      That robot appeared to be carrying some kind of hitch or assembly, so *that* was probably in between her and any hopes of stopping it.

  24. Where are your three laws now? by gazelam · · Score: 1

    This robot seems to have not followed the three laws. Probably needs some kind of tune up.

    1. Re:Where are your three laws now? by gtall · · Score: 1

      Did this robot learn from its environment? No.

      No AI was involved. It was merely an industrial machine. You wouldn't expect a roll-former or a feed-to-stop to automatically shut down because a human stuck their hand in the line EXCEPT if the cage around the machine malfunctioned and failed to detect the hand or if someone had shut the cage controls off (probably it would have been interlocked with machine so it wouldn't work if the cage was shut off) or if the cage had been removed and the interlock overrode.

      What killed the worker here was simple machinery malfunction, or more likely, user stupidity in by-passing safety mechanisms.

      Industrial robots do not use AI, not yet, and I doubt most would because industrial robots are intended for mindless and accurate repetition. Learning isn't applicable.

    2. Re:Where are your three laws now? by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Every autonomous system is now considered an AI. Operating systems are even AIs.

  25. Re: Mossad by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    You joke, but Mossad stole this poor guy's shoe! https://youtu.be/qqoLmQpzqXA

  26. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by freeze128 · · Score: 2

    Humans anthropomorphize machines all the time. Maybe we should blame Hanna/Barbera for making "The Jetsons".

  27. Re:Yeah, we should have driverless cars on the roa by coolsnowmen · · Score: 2

    ...kill the kid in a way that no human would have ever done, unless high on drugs.

    Or falling asleep, or distracted by texting, or messing with their music, or...- The computer doesn't have to be perfect, just better than us, which seems quite easy at this point.

    it is no more than the sum of its programming or the reliability of its sensors.

    And neither are you or I.

  28. I thought there were laws against this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Three of them, IIRC.

  29. Auto drive cars need a avionics software level cod by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    Auto drive cars need a avionics software level code reviews and QA!.

    If not just wait for one to take poor map data and crash.

  30. Yup, here's your problem by jfdavis668 · · Score: 2

    Someone set this thing to "evil".

  31. Re:Yeah, we should have driverless cars on the roa by ctilsie242 · · Score: 1

    If someone is killed by an AI, it is a freak accident that makes the news and horror stories. It someone is killed by a drunk, it is considered an every day thing. However, in both cases, dead is dead.

    At least an AI can be improved, the guy who has no license, four priors, and is driving a car titled under a family member's name isn't going to become a safer driver.

  32. Actually the people that found his wife should sue by BlueCoder · · Score: 0

    Him on her behalf.... for their trauma in finding her.

    She was the person most qualified to understand the machines and safety. The only way I would judge something like this in his favor is if she made complaints of dangerous working conditions and she was rebuffed.

    If that were my job I'd have a remote to the circuit breaker to cut off power to the building as well as a second person for an extra set of eyes there for safety with the same remote shut off..

    It's very similar to if an Xray tech that sues his own company for radiation poisoning for his own mistake. Simply cut the dam power. I do feel though that anyone doing a dangerous job (aka their own screw ups can kill them) like that should have company subsided life insurance.

  33. Sounds familiar by quonset · · Score: 1

    It seems we have our first Runaway. Better check to make sure its circuits haven't been modified.

  34. Impractical Answer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The death of the technician is unfortunate. That said, the level of review / safety requirements should be appropriate to the system's mission. <tangent>One of the reason why DoD contractors are so expensive is that they apply the same processes that they use to design missiles that could carry nuclear warheads to designing a toilet.</tangent> Avionics has a certain level of safety because failure can kill hundreds of people in the air as well as thousands in a building or ground. A robot arm probably requires nothing more than a hard power off or lock-out-tag-out functionality.

    1. Re:Impractical Answer by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      A single car also has the potential to kill hundreds of people (cause a massive wreck on a busy freeway).

  35. Re:Yeah, we should have driverless cars on the roa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like MS products are so much better and google maps that sometimes can't understand a complex intersection....

    so much better than humans? already better? not too hard to be better,now? Remember that when you have you next segfault, or blue screen of death.

    bunch of bull$hit. Hope you buy the first driverless car. I have been programming computers since before you were born and know the limitations

  36. Guy was pissed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The suing guy was just pissed his wife got hitched elsewhere.

  37. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles. Until robots become at least as intelligent and complex as human nervous systems, such commands cannot be implemented. And if they ever do, we will immediately face even more tremendous problems.

    You haven't actually read Asimov's Robot stories, have you? If you had, you'd know that the implementation of the three laws of robotics was entirely irrelevant to the points he was trying to make.

  38. "a human colleague"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a retarded concept. A robot is not the "colleague" of a human anymore than the machine you are using to write that nonsense is your colleague. It's all cold metal, chips and code, powered by electricity. If you want to put yourself on that level of mindlessness that's fine just leave the rest of us humans alone.

    Almost as bad as wanting robots to pay taxes... what's next, you want them to vote?!

  39. What about the three laws of robotics? by no1nose · · Score: 1

    1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

    2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

    3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

    1. Re:What about the three laws of robotics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess that depends on how you define robot. This was an industrial appliance with no significant intelligence. It essentially bumbles around blindly expecting the correct things to interact with be at preset positions/times. It likely has very little in the way of feedback.

      Where as what the three laws are appended to are robots with situational awareness and the ability to process abstract situations/concepts. Which is it's own kettle of moral fish, because once you have constructed a machine that complex and shackled it with directives you walk the razors edge between highly advanced tool and manufactured slave race.

    2. Re:What about the three laws of robotics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

      2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

      3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

      The three laws only apply to devices with positronic brains.

    3. Re:What about the three laws of robotics? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      0. A robot will do whatever it is told to do, as long as doing so will increase profits.

  40. I,Robot by b12arr0 · · Score: 0

    I guess this robot wasn't loaded with the three laws...

    1. Re:I,Robot by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      Sure it was. Unfortunately it could only understand a few dozen primitive opcodes.

  41. Her own responsibility? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As she was responsible for developing and maintaining the robot, was she herself maybe responsible?

  42. Pics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where can I find the pictures? I need to know the outcome for..... research.

  43. Manufacturers will eventually lobby by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to declare robots as lawful persons. If anything goes wrong, it will only ever amount to destroying the robot, or most likely given what a big circus America is, putting the robot in a confined space for 100 years.

    1. Re:Manufacturers will eventually lobby by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      They'll hire ACLU lawyers, be set free, join a gang, and go on fuel stamps.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  44. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Agreed that a Robot is no more a colleague than a screwdriver.

    I think you're wrong about Asimov, though. It's obvious that to write about theoretical concerns of future technology, the author must proceed without knowing how to actually implement the technology, but may be able to say that it's theoretically possible. There is no shortage of good, predictive science fiction written when we had no idea how to achieve the technology portrayed. For example, Clarke's orbital satellites were steam-powered. Steam is indeed an efficient way to harness solar power if you have a good way to radiate the waste heat, but we ended up using photovoltaic. But Clarke was on solid ground regarding the theoretical possibility of such things.

  45. First rule of robotics by darkob · · Score: 0

    So, there you go. So called "first rule of robotics" is a lie.

  46. what about repair and the push to keep the line by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    what about repair and the push to keep the line moving as much as it can while working to repair the automation?

    abolish health and safety laws?? and when the rich boss says do some unsafe thing or your gone some may just say fuck it and beat the shit out that boss just so they can get free room, board and doctor in the prison!

  47. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles."

    What? Did you read the books and short stories? They were all about how those laws failed to achieve their intended consequences.

  48. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Archtech · · Score: 1

    You haven't actually read Asimov's Robot stories, have you? If you had, you'd know that the implementation of the three laws of robotics was entirely irrelevant to the points he was trying to make.

    I had read all of them - some several times - by 1965. When were you born?

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  49. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Archtech · · Score: 1

    Oh dear. Like the other AC (or are you the same?) you don't seem to grasp that even if Asimov's laws failed to achieve their intended consequences, that has nothing to do with the fact that they could not be implemented anyway.

    In other words, Asimov may have been interested in showing that the laws didn't accomplish what was intended. But they were also impossible.

    One of the rules of hard science fiction is that the author must not introduce more departures from known scientific facts than absolutely necessary. Ideally, one departure should be the limit.

    Asimov's "Positronic Brains" were a flat-out "deus ex machina". He assumed that the problems of both weak and strong AI would be solved; 50 years later neither has even been approached.

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  50. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by swillden · · Score: 1

    But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles.

    He didn't ignore that, he simply assumed that it would become possible in the future -- and extensively explored the ways in which it could still go wrong, showing that even with that nonexistent technology, the seemingly foolproof Laws of Robotics were anything but foolproof.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  51. Lock Out Procedures Can Fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There is a rich and gory history of Lock Out Procedures that were followed and failed.
    THEY ARE NOT FOOL PROOF.

    After being almost killed by a Lock Out Procedure fault, I take an extra step.
    Once electrical power has been Locked Out and Tagged, I install a substantial shorting bar across the incoming power lines.
    If something ( or someone ) fails, there could be major damage to the plant electrical generating system - but my ass is safe.
    I have never seen any employer recommend this step, probably because it is less costly to replace a worker than a power generation subsystem.

  52. Re: "Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Elegant as always, Mr Perens

  53. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Archtech · · Score: 1

    But Clarke was on solid ground regarding the theoretical possibility of such things.

    I strongly disagree. There is absolutely no sign as yet that it will ever be possible to create robot brains that understand such high abstractions as "harm", or indeed even "human being".

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  54. He may have a case? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its my understanding that the OSHA regulations specify lockout/tag out to be done before any maintenance can be done where people are present. Depending on what kinds of safety systems are in place fore those machines, the dude actually might not be tilting at windmills.

  55. LOTO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So why wasn't industry standard lock-out tag-out implemented? The robots would have been de-energized and incapable of movement. Either the company doesn't have a LOTO policy in place (unlikely) or the employee didn't follow procedure.

  56. Re: Before you crack stupid jokes please read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cry more.

  57. I work in industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And a co-worker was crushed to death about two years ago. We have lock out / tag out procedures. He was a electrician, a maintenance worker, who was called out to service equipment. He was pressured by management to hurry, because of production deadlines. He knowingly took a short cut, not properly locking out the equipment he wasn't working on. He was standing in the wrong place and was crushed to death by an overhead crane. In the strictest of terms it was his fault, but management was breathing down his neck. We'll never know the full story as to what happened to Wanda. We weren't there. Its very possible she was pressured to take short cuts.

  58. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

    You're approaching it from an anthropomorphic perspective. It's not necessary for a robot to "understand" abstractions any more than they are required to understand mathematics in order to add two numbers. They just apply rules as programmed.

    Today, computers can classify people in moving video and apply rules to their actions such as not to approach them. Tomorrow, those rules will be more complex. That is all.

  59. Incompetence by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This was entirely her own fault. She was working on equipment that was not turned off. She was the maintenance technician, therefore she was the one responsible for performing that maintenance safely and correctly. Just because you mess up and kill yourself with the equipment, it doesn't mean it was someone else at fault.
    I guarantee you she was trained on how to perform proper maintenance, and I also guarantee there were emergency cut-off switches all around her, just like at any other factory.
    I would be willing to bet she was in a hurry and tried to quickly perform some action with total disregard for the actual safety procedures.

    1. Re:Incompetence by PPH · · Score: 1

      ... or the lockout/safety features were improperly designed, tested, or failed somehow. An investigation will be conducted. Blame will be assigned.

      Many years ago, our state highway department tested a drawbridge. The test involved switching the controls into a 'maintenance mode' and exercising the control logic without actually opening the bridge. Unfortunately, the maintenance mode selection failed and the bridge actually opened. During rush hour*, killing one woman when a bridge section suddenly popped up in front of her car. Investigations were done and it was found that the original control design did not include a comprehensive failure modes and effects analysis that would have revealed the passive fault.

      *I don't know why they didn't test it at 2AM. A full end-to-end test with the barriers coming down and the bridge opening. They would have stopped about four cars for 10 minutes. On second thought, I do know why: Union rules. First shift operation costs less, even though the bridge operators are still sitting there for 8 hours.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Incompetence by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

      of coarse that is most likely but like the aritcle I though murder was a more titillating possibility. It is still a whole lot more likely then a machine 'mysteriously' moving and 'killing' a 'co-worker'. Honestly this is about as mysterious as someone being hit by a truck because they were working underneath it and the jack fell, but murder is at least a possibility and that what it would be on every TV show I've ever seen ;)

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
  60. Re:Auto drive cars need a avionics software level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Auto drive cars need a avionics software level code reviews and QA!.

    If not just wait for one to take poor map data and crash.

    Never going to happen. Most of the self-driving shit is driven by ANNs which makes them impossible to "review". All you can do is test against an objective function.

  61. There's some grusome bias here by wardrich86 · · Score: 2

    "The machine loaded the hardware onto Holbrook's head."

    I'm not sure what the literary device is being used here, but that word choice really makes it the entire blurb leading up to this point makes it sound like the robot became sentient and was on a mission. The last line (the bit I quoted) was equal parts gruesome, horrific, and fantastic. I would read a book by whomever wrote the bit there.

  62. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles.

    Emphasis mine. What's the point of fiction set in the future if we can predict how everything would work out?

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  63. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, you've just given up the argument, and have basically agreed that strong AI is impossible (for a great argument for why not, see Searle's Chinese Room). Mind is a phenomenon of healthy living brain and is seen no where else. No matter how advanced technologically, nor how far into the future one wants to project... in a million billion years from now, strong AI (machine consciousness) can still never exist. But it is easy to fool a human into believing a program is really conscious.

  64. Re:Auto drive cars need a avionics software level by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    No they don't.
    source: Slashdot

  65. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clarke did very little writing on robot brains.

    also, science fiction allows for authorial assumptions. Asimov assumed robots could understand abstract concepts like harm. Doesn't make his speculative fiction less valid. His assumptions are consistent and introduced early in his books- that's the hallmark of hard scifi.

  66. It's not a "colleague" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The robot is a piece of machinery. This is a serious safety failure. Ms. Holbrook was servicing a robot, and had successfully locked it out. But somehow a different robot was able to access the area she was in. For the robot to be able to pass through the safety doors is a major interlock failure.

  67. Lock out, tag out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lock out, tag out. Our Facilities Dept required us in the IT Dept to take it and we don't even work with the heavy machinery. Seems like a lack training and following safety protocols.

  68. They should have hired Sigourney Weaver... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... to say, "Caution... rogue robots"

  69. Basilisk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's what you get for not helping Roko's basilisk in the future...

  70. "Robots" aren't robots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We are so used to hype about everything that we forget what a robot is: an autonomous ambulatory machine with perception and effectors. "Robots" in a factory are generally just multi-axis programmable manipulators. Not really much different than an ink-jet printer, or a juke box of old.

  71. Not The First by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    A robotic arm has great mass and can move very quickly. Working around robots involves obeying safety rules and following procedures without exception. If a worker fails to follow the proper practices the effect of a robotic arm hitting a human head is about the same as a heavy golf club swatting the head at great speed. And workers do tend to disconnect safety systems to make working on the robots a bit easier. There are some trades in which one mistake is the last mistake one will ever make.

  72. A suspicious Luddite... by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    ...might conclude that the death was anything but accidental.

    Such is the fate of all who fail to bow down before our new mechanical overlords.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  73. Re:Come on, not that Kawaiiminator again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > one of the cute asian girl asked me if she should "see" the body of the robot. She was thinking there's was a huge robot under the floor controlling the two arm

    She is knowledgeable. Japanese comic books (manga) and animation (anime) are full of "giant mecha" or huge bipedal combat robots, brandishing laser katana and particle blast cannons. Mecha are usually guided by a pilot from a cockpit hidden in the chest or head of the machine. Pilot is almost always a schoolgirl, aged 12 to 16. Either she is cute or the mecha is cute or both. BTW, guys are seldom useful for anything in anime, it's a very much amazon fantasy land. Rarely the largest mecha are piloted by two, e.g. in Blue Gender and that idea was borrowed by Hollywood for its "Pacific Rim".

    Anyhow, most guys would have escorted that cute asian girl to the factory basement, promising to show her the robot's body and promptly take advantage of the situation. Which means you are either exceptionally gentlemanly or you have an orientation problem or you are a racist? IMHO, the second option is better than the third and I don't believe in reality of the first one...

  74. Hyperbolic reporting... by Timothy2.0 · · Score: 1

    No one's claiming the robot is responsible for her death; they're claiming the manufacturers are responsible for her death, due to the robot's malfunction. The hyperbolic choice of language, I feel, purposefully crafts an idea in the audience's mind that's actually rather detrimental to the design and construction of robots that *can* analyze context and make autonomous decisions.

  75. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

    Well, you've just given up the argument, and have basically agreed that strong AI is impossible

    Not at all. Strong AI is not necessary to the argument. It is perfectly possible for an unconscious machine not considered "strong AI" to act upon Asimov's Laws. They're just rules for a program to act upon.

    In addition, it is not necessary for Artificial General Intelligence to be conscious.

    Mind is a phenomenon of healthy living brain and is seen no where else.

    We have a lot to learn of consciousness yet. But what we have learned so far seems to indicate that consciousness is a story that the brain tells itself, and is not particularly related to how the brain actually works. Descartes self-referential attempt aside, it would be difficult for any of us to actually prove that we are conscious.

  76. Who says women don't want dangerous jobs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    On the other hand, I predict some really good new stuff from Stephen King on evil robots, ala "The Mangler".

  77. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    The AC was being an ass, but he is making a valid point. Asimov wrote "I, Robot" 10 years before the existence of "computer programming" as we know it. The microprocessor didn't exist yet. "Programming" was more like electrical engineering than software engineering is today.

    there is no known way to implement such law

    Duh, of course! But to criticize Asimov as having "blandly ignored" the limitations of computer programming is insulting to his intelligence and detracts from the point of the books. They aren't engineering books about implementation. They are imaginations about the moral implications of what could possibly be. If anything, his books explore the moral ambiguity of the 3 laws of robotics, and talk about how hard it would be to write such laws given the assumption of a perfectly logical being that could interpret them. That's what makes it science fiction.

  78. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

    Clarke did very little writing on robot brains.

    Um, I'll have to assume that you weren't around for April, 1968, when the leading AI in popular culture for a long, long, time was introduced in a Kubrick and Clarke screenplay and what probably should have been attributed as a Clarke and Kubrick novel. And a key element of that screenplay was a priority conflict in the AI.

  79. murder? by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

    Just saying, what a perfect way to stage someones death. How could anyone know?

    --
    âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    1. Re:murder? by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

      Just ask R. Daneel Olivaw.

  80. Re: Before you crack stupid jokes please read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wish it was you that worked on that robot and not her.

    Powwwww

  81. Fired Robot Seeks New Career ... by Geodesy99 · · Score: 1

    ... as an Uber Driver.

  82. Re: Before you crack stupid jokes please read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Oh, you wound me! I'm so hurt! Oh, wait. No, I'm not. Fuck off.

  83. Maybe the robot became a Muslim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Easy to check, just see if it tried her first

  84. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by tipo159 · · Score: 1

    The word is derived from the Slavic language root meaning "work" or "worker", and strongly suggests that a robot is to some extent intechangeable with human workers.

    Did you not see "The World's End"? A running joke in the movie is that antagonists are not robots as robot means slave ("... and believe me, they are not slaves").

    The word is derived from the Slavic word "robota", which could mean "forced worker" (peasants "obligated to compulsory service" under feudalism, see Robot Patent) or slave.

  85. Suing everyone is SOP... by chaboud · · Score: 1

    In a civil liability suit, you sue everyone involved, from the part manufacturer to the installer to the operator to the owner of the space being leased to the guy that printed the sign out front...

    Why? Because, if you don't, the easiest oath out of liability is for all of the parties of the suit to point to the unnamed party and snow a jury. You sue everyone so they do their due diligence to demonstrate a lack of fault in deposition and then get you pointed to the party at fault. This is not new or unusual. It's sadly necessary.

  86. blame that victim by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you go to school for a PHD in Victim Blaming? I knew one of you regular conservative posters would be on here in quickly to shit on her and you were in the top 3. Great job, asshole.

  87. Finally by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1

    We have natural selection again, now just to make the robots more unsafe so we can avoid Idiocracy altogether.

    1. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      retard

  88. management has responsibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i dont really believe this "people disable the system". they disabled it because they had to meet some performance metric, set by management, and management checked those metrics for performance but never checked how they were being accomplished.

    management has 100% responsibility for the safety of their people barring someone committing blatant suicide.

  89. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > But Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws

    The stories are about positronic brains that are sapient. The idea that a sapient being can parse and executes those laws is not controversial- 100% of sapient beings can do so. The idea that a positronic brain exists, and is sapient, is the only real part of his story that is science fiction. The ability to implement the laws follows directly from the ability to implement the sapient machines. In the real world there may be technical challenges to this approach, but no one can reasonably say or predict that.

  90. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A deus ex machina is justified where an artifical intelligence is concerned. We have examples of biological machines that have the intended properties, and using the word positronic keeps it open to interpretation as to whether or not we used some kind of direct engineering (it was made) or growing-in-a-vat style engineering.

  91. Columbo already dealt with this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...in the seminal episode Mind Over Mayhem...

  92. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by jeffkoch · · Score: 1

    there is no known way to implement such law

    Duh, of course!

    Why is that an, "of course"? The article describes a woman crushed in an assembly line. If a self driving car can recognize a human and apply the brakes, I think a similar algorithm could have put the assembly line robots into a safe mode.

  93. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by RespekMyAthorati · · Score: 1

    Asimov blandly ignored the obvious fact that there is no known way to implement such laws, which incorporate high-level abstract notions and moral principles.

    Which was the whole point.
    His robot novels were parables about how even lofty goals like the Three Laws still left many loopholes leading to disaster.

  94. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by houghi · · Score: 1

    Agreed that a Robot is no more a colleague than a screwdriver.

    A screwdriver is as much a colleague as Jack or Johnny (Daniels and Walker)

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  95. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    I agree that an algorithm could recognize a human and put the robots into a safe mode. But Asimov's 3 laws were much more complex than that.

    Asimov's laws are more like an attempt to codify moral behavior. Humans can't even implement those laws. The laws required the robots to know the future and anticipate indirect consequences of their actions. In one of the stories, the robots implemented the laws by creating a religion. In another, the robots had to anticipate an object that might fall and indirectly crush a human, but then they also recognized that there was a hidden failsafe that would prevent the human from getting hit. The robots had to balance different conflicting goals and make a judgement between doing its job and saving a human. The movie, although not Asimov's writing, gave other examples like that. It showed a robot deciding which of two people to save, or a robot deciding between saving lives and preserving a human's freedom and right to decide.

  96. Re:"Human Colleague"... Nope, You Just Don't Get I by Dagger2 · · Score: 1

    The fact that human brains can do it strongly suggests that it's possible to make something artificial that can do the same thing. That doesn't necessarily mean we can do it with our current software approaches, or even in anything involving silicon, but it clearly is possible.

    (With the pace of recent advances in AI I would argue that it seems likely to be doable in software, and probably very much sooner that you might expect.)