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Is Australia Becoming A Cashless Society? (abc.net.au)
Australia's Reserve Bank will roll out an instantaneous money-transferring technology later this year, "which will push Australia even further towards being a cashless society," according to ABC. An anonymous reader quotes their report:
In 2014, 12 financial institutions signed up to build the "New Payment Platform," partly as a way of bringing Australia up to speed with other countries that are ahead in the race to becoming completely cashless. Sweden is on track to become the world's first completely cashless economy, and just last November India got rid of its highest denomination bills, effectively eliminating 90 per cent of its paper money... The "New Payment Platform" will mean money can be transferred almost instantaneously, even when the payer and payee are members of different banks.
"It's estimated that somewhere between about $3.5 and $5 billion in Australia every year is lost in tax revenue due to the sort of cash economy," says an economics professor at the University of New South Wales, who predicts Australia could be cash-free by 2020. The Australian Payments Association reports that over 75% of the country's face-to-face payments are already tap-and-go, and ATM withdrawals have sunk to a 15-year low.
"It's estimated that somewhere between about $3.5 and $5 billion in Australia every year is lost in tax revenue due to the sort of cash economy," says an economics professor at the University of New South Wales, who predicts Australia could be cash-free by 2020. The Australian Payments Association reports that over 75% of the country's face-to-face payments are already tap-and-go, and ATM withdrawals have sunk to a 15-year low.
The better to track you with, my dear!
What people don't understand, is that while going cashless is convenient, it allows everything that you are doing to be tracked by the gooberment and businesses. Want to purchase something that you don't want anyone to know about.. can't do that. It will form a black market
We don't have EFTPOS facilities that are anywhere near reliable enough for cashless to be realistic.
I first read it as "classless" and was inclined to agree.
This will make for a really laggy experience and be even harder on the drive.
They can stop printing cash, that is fine, but that does not mean you have to be part of this experiment in oppression a and slavery, defy this crap, exchange in something tangible, use precious metals or just barter, tell the government to fuck off, or don't tell it but act that way.
You can't handle the truth.
Not to mention not every vendor has it, or network reception isn't always there for the reader to connect. So yeah, maybe one day but we won't be the first.
+Raider of the lost BBS
Think of all the lovely money a service charge per transaction will generate! As long as that 2020 is on an NBN time scale, we'll be ok.
No Way.
Consider cash withdrawn money Vs unexplained cash deposits. Talk dollars, not transactions.
All Tradesmen offer 10% discount for cash. Nearly nobody gets caught. As all electronic transactions are shared and linked - do you think they are that stupid? With the ATO (Our IRS) being completely useless and not using mobile phone records and geolocation to match unrecorded jobs, cash is king.
In our version of Chinatown, ONLY cash is accepted for say restaurant meals,
Number of transactions for legitimate grocery shopping and train tickets, consumer staples, do not reflect chunky brown envelopes of the folding stuff.
It's always interesting how the Media guys consider themselves as part of the government. "It's our money! How dare the people keep it!"
>"It's estimated that somewhere between about $3.5 and $5 billion in Australia every year is lost in tax revenue due to the sort of cash economy,"
"Lost in tax revenue". That is, it's the government's money, and the citizens are just thieves who are stealing it.
Let's correct that, shall we?
"It's estimated that somewhere between about $3.5 and $5 billion in Australia every year is saved by the people..."
Cashless means everything costs more, including paying your child an allowance for mowing the lawn because it's taxed.
_ _ _ Go for the eyes Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!
The drop in people using ATM's less doesn't mean less use of cash, it's that the supermarkets have largely replaced the ATM functionally.
You need to buy food anyway and it's more convenient to use the card there and as you swipe the card "Do you want cash out ?"
"$100 please" - which is the cash my wife and I would typically spend over a week. So yes, ATM visits have decreased but our use of cash hasn't dropped.
All this cashless society has the main problem that during any serious cataclysm that kills the communication infrastructure the trade just stops. Not only the global nuclear cataclysm and EMP but any kind of local cataclysm like Katrina or war in Syria. And if the trade stops the hungry people could rob since they could not buy.
Moreover, I feel that the more Western is the society the higher the unrest. Some Somalians could organize a government-less society based on traditional law, in the First World it's just impossible. We Russians survived the wild capitalism of 1990-s because in any crisis there was impossible to foreclose or cut off the electricity and heat. Next such crisis could produce hordes of homeless.
They only have value above their utilitarian value because people say they do.
Two major differences between precious metals and fiat currencies are:
* The utility value for fiat currencies is zero for book-entry money, almost zero for paper/plastic currency, and that of base metals for coinage ("melt-down value"). The utility value for gold, silver, and most other precious metals is at least as much as base metals, there's just a lot less of it to go around.
* precious metals have a known, reasonably-predictable caps on long-term future supply based on active mines and known deposits (subject to technology disruptions such as what aluminum went through in the 19th century). The "future supply" of fiat currencies is about as predictable as politics. That is to say, it may be reasonably predictable in the short- or even medium-term but for anything longer than a decade or two, the political risk can become significant even in countries that currently enjoy stable govermnents, stable banking systems, and stable currencies.
I'm leaving out the difference that fiat currencies are typically legal tender in their country of origin. Precious metals might have been legal tender in the past, but I can't think of any major country where they are legal tender in any practical sense of the word (that is, the are legal tender, AND when you pay your debts with them you are credited with the current spot price of the metal in your local currency, or at least something very close to it).
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
The supermarket duopoly offer POS cash withdrawals with no fee.
Contrast that with an ATM where you have to hunt for your bank's machine or face an extortionate $2 charge to withdraw from a rival bank's machine. Hence an increasing number of people just get $100 or so out in cash when they buy their groceries.
Bring India in as an example. They royally screwed over their poorer citizens when they 'retired' their old cash and didn't have enough new bank notes ready to replace it.
It would be interesting to see a graph of household debt vs adoption of cashless payment methods. An anecdotal point: Germany has pretty low household debt and relies primarily on cash for personal transactions. The idea being; if you don't have the money in your pocket, you don't buy it. Cashless transactions are a good way to either get people to run up debt in the form of a line of credit or overdraft fees. I smell more income for banks here.
Have gnu, will travel.
Real time tracking of every financial transaction of your life. WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?
Reading the article I see the push for this cashless system is to assure that the government gets their cut of the deal. I have an idea, do away with sales taxes and get your revenue by means less likely to get subverted. How many ways do people need to be taxed? Should not one form of taxes be enough? I assume Australia is much like any other Anglosphere nation where there is a sales tax, income tax, property tax, "sin" tax (on alcohol, tobacco, and such), homeowner tax, Homer tax, bear tax, poll tax, pole tax, polecat tax, poll cat tax, cat on a pole tax, and a tax tax.
Where is it written that a government *MUST* tax sales? I'm not saying governments do not or should not have the ability to impose any taxes, only that the number of taxes imposed by most governments is excessive. I know why governments impose taxes like this, it hides just how much money they are collecting by spreading it around so that it is difficult to see just how much the government is taking. I believe that a government that is honest with its citizens would make the taxes simple.
They are fighting a battle they cannot win. If they impose restrictions on the movement of cash then people will revert to barter.
This also gets into the "mark of the beast" territory from Christian tradition. You can call it just a superstition if you like but psychologists, sociologists, and economists have made connections between Christian tradition and a healthy society. I'm not saying following every Christian belief will bring an ideal society, only that we've seen Christian societies excel where others did not. I say it may be helpful to see the Bible as a historical document, full of parables, advice, and warnings for building a healthy society.
I know people will feel the urge to mod me down for getting all religious. This is not about religion though, but religion does play a part in this. There will be people that oppose this on religious grounds. There will be people that oppose this because they see the hazards this has on society. These are not mutually exclusive groups. Removing the ability for people to conduct business with cash is dangerous, and some people roughly 2000 years ago warned us of this. I believe that we should think real hard about what a cashless society means. It won't take divine intervention to destroy society, we'll do that on our own.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
Until all the stores either implement card systems (a large portion are still cash only) or remove the minimum transaction limit (usually at least $10), there's no way I'd consider Australia remotely cashless. Even 10 years ago back in NZ I never carried cash on me, but I still have to over here.
to be used against the people? Is that really what you are saying? To turn off your computer, to use your computer, against your will? What are you some soft of commie liberal leftist marxist rappier of women and children?
Asutralia's rural internet is still pathetic, with some areas either unconnected or sporadically connected by pre-dialup speed satellite connections. There is literally no way Australia has any potential to go cashless in 3 years time.
Isn't the economic activity more important than the tax generated from that economic activity?
Australian Government Tax Revenue 2014/5
$375B
So this is a 1% uptick.
This system is a response to the RBA rule to stop overnighting. Banks profit from taking a day or more to transfer money between banks for account holders so they can sit in the banks account overnight and earn them interest.
The RBA has said - no more overnighting.
This is driving the need for a new solution rahter than the current system for interbank transfers.
1.) You enjoy the possibility of having your funds cut at anytime because there's no physical currency as proof (think paper trail). If the local version of IRS says you owe us, then there's is absolutely nothing you can do to stop it because it's all controlled by a bank. If you need to buy something in an emergency, but banks are closed or there are server issues, now you can't. 2.) Or, raise your hand if you enjoy being on the phone for hours when creditors screw up. 3.) Or, raise your hand if you believe we are in a world in which bank hacking is impossible or you enjoy having all of your purchases monitored, recorded, and controlled forever and ever amen. This means every condom, tampon, douche, medication, or whatever embarrassing thing you can think of is now on record forever. 4.) Do you like eating? Of course you do. But, have you noticed how much harder it is to grow things thanks to a screwed up climate? How much harder it is to get fruit or veggies with seeds? How much more restrictions and requirements there are on farming? Paying for water? The Future: "If you don't believe what we believe, then you don't get to eat. Your card has been declined and we don't take cash." Limiting the ability to trade only reflects the countries failure to manage its problems and puts people's basic human right to survival and privacy in danger.
Not really... I live in Australia and use paypass where ever I can. Though there are still many restaurants, cafes and shops with a cash only policy. Some of these shops turnover a lot of cash. The only reason for not using other payment methods I can think of is to avoid the tax and be able to pay their staff with cash. If the govt scraps the taxes then these shops will be more likely to go cashless.
Why is a news article in the form of a question? And why are statistics provided? Is it some sort of exam? If I didn't even know those statistics, how am I the expert to answer that question? Assuming they even put a comments section.
I don't fucking know.
Cashless as in broke. Yes.
What happens when the power goes out or the system goes down?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/shoppers-drug-mart-computer-crash-1.4034194
Business is crippled. This is why "cashless" cannot work.
Not yet, but close to it.
Of course, many "old" people still use piles of cash.
But you can pay nearly anything with your smartphone now. And this change happened in 1 or 2 years (at least from my point of view, which is a trip in 2015/06 and 2017/02).
Totof
^^ why is this modded down? bitcoin is a cashless solution to anonymous payments
If Australia is quickly becoming the first cashless society then the leading technology in enabling this will be extremely powerful.
Australian banks, and more recently retailers, fighting to take control back from Apple of their wireless payment system can now be seen in a different light.
interpreting press releases as news.
There's no way my "massage" will be paid for electronically and tracked.
I guess BitCoin will be the only option if cash disappears.
Sweden is being derailed into becoming a cashless society.
It is a change pushed by banks and related tech companies, so that they can make a little bit more money. Nobody else wants it.
Leading politicians on a national level are not very interested in the issue - spending more time and energy on squabbling between themselves, pointing finger at each other's small mistakes than willing to take on real responsibility themselves.
"We mustn't be caught by surprise by our own advancing technology" -- Aldous Huxley
lt's already happening.
Denmark has been like this for years. North America (US in particular) had been lagging behind for a decade in this area.
It doesn't even need a disaster. In a few situations it's required no more than someone digging in the wrong place to kill a link between a city and where the funds are being processed. The trend is towards processing in less locations so fragility is increasing.
I expect a major storm hitting Manilla would fuck up the payment processing of a large number of US based banks and a few others. Consider the hard drive shortage when Bangkok got flooded only for communication.
god damn ozzies
i am a tradie and as i dont earn bugger all yearly i usually ask for cash as i dont need to pay tax so why would i change to an expensive phone payment system when the mobile phone network is crap in rural australia and doesnt work in 70% of the area i live in ?
ever thought that maybe someone is asking for cash because its simpler and helps keep their costs down ?
You are sort-of right, but you are looking at the wrong 'tax'. The real benefit of cashless, is that central banks can drive interest rates negative in a deflationary environment.
Since around the 1990s, automation and competition from low labour centers basically destroyed the utility value of the working class. We still give them jobs (which are basically funded by welfare), but most of these are just a sop to our consciences so that we can enjoy our lattes and craft beer without having to stare at slum dwelling children.
The real horror for us, however, is that through the 2000s this same effect has extended well into the middle class. Some of us have quite obviously been directly affected, but these are not a majority yet so nobody cares about them. So why has the middle class not collapsed? The reason is because of the banking sector. What the banking sector has been doing since 2000s is engaging in a giant UBI process for anyone in the middle class who owned a house. Central banks have maintained broadly negative real interest rates (when you've adjusted for inflation) since then, which has ensure that anyone with access to credit (ie middle class home owners) can get connected to a perpetual money spiggot that supplements their falling income from their increasingly unnecessary jobs. This has sustained the middle class in most western countries.
Essentially the problem that occurred is that central banks let a fast bubble develop which blew open the nature of the ponzi scheme and those middle class homeowners freaked out. They then hit the zero lower bound on interest rates, and could not keep the bubble inflated. This is why they are desperate for inflation (just watch Mark Carney do nothing as UK inflation rockets) as this would force real interest rates negative, but demographics, automation and a continuing lack of confidence means that they cannot get the mild 3-4% inflation that would allow them to keep the debt ponzi scheme going.
Because of this, what they would really like to be able to do is drive nominal interest rates deeply negative. If they could do this they can get the debt bubble going again even under deflationary conditions. Just imagine how many people will rush out to buy a house for even more stupid prices if people started getting paid to have mortgages. The middle class economy would take off again as the homeowner UBI comes back on line (well, for anyone lucky enough to have gotten onto the housing bandwagon).
The biggest impediment to negative rates is cash. This is why the swiss national bank does not allow you to store francs in safety deposit boxes, and why many countries have introduced controls on cash (under the guises of preventing terrorism). Central banks want this as a tool for the next crash, and they are slowing setting things up to ensure this is possible.
If you have lots of money, then you'll know how to protect it (buy a house, basically). If you have lots of debt then the central banks have your back. If you have a moderate amount of savings, then you will be screwed. Indeed, watch Mark Carney's recent talk on the post crash recovery and he admits that the only people who have suffered since the crash are those who had savings but not assets, but he justifies letting this happen by saying they in the minority.
And issued R2000 notes to replace them. Not exactly what I'd call eliminating.
and lastly, because if everyone pays their rightful share, each individual can pay less. This is not about "extra" taxation, or taxing "3, 4, 5" times, but simply applying the same rules everyone. It is amusing to me that you assume that everyone in the world has the same allergic reaction to paying taxes that you do, because you assume that everyone else in the world shares the same jaundiced view of government and the social contract that many of you do - not just those on the libertarian fringe either, it seems, but reg'lar folks who rather unbelievably to me and many in my country, elected a president that publicly brags about paying little or no taxes. In Australia a political campaign would be dead in the water after such an admission, - the "obligation to shareholders blah blah blah" argument being self-serving bullshit in the case of a privately-held company like Trump Organization anyhow - because although we're not the fair and equitable nation we once were there's a pretty strong feeling that our obligations must balance our privileges. Of which we have many. As it happens I don't think GST or other consumption taxes that this kind of payment system will help with tracking are the best kind of tax, but they're not entirely regressive either. For mine, a single, universal no-exemption financial transaction tax is the way to go.
We control EVERYTHING. It's good to be a Jew.
Surprisingly, here in Brazil we have an advanced banking system, I, for example, have a totally free bank account with unlimited instant transfers for any bank. But we are way too far from eliminating cash, as many people don't even have a bank account.
Nothing like a record of everything you buy, the ability to destroy your ability to go on living at someones whim. Sounds pretty scary.
Track your spending. Track your computer usage via Windows 10,8,7 even Server (Way disturbing). Track phone location / usage. Track Internet usage. Track your spending by making you use electronic payments because your bank manager will call the cops if you withdrawl $1000+, Track your car with License plate readers/toll cameras, then there's cameras at each stop light.
This is all good to deter/help solve crimes, but well, you know abuse comes inherently with power.
We were world leading with BPAY ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPAY )
We've gone chip+pin only on credit cards (and for that matter had chip based credit cards for years)
There are services like POLI ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POLi_Payments ), though the idea breaks pretty much every internet safety lesson.
Cash is obviously very useful in the black market, and I suspect fighting against it is a primary motivation for going cashless.
The interesting question becomes : what will replace cash in the black market? Prepaid cards, cryptocurrencies, foreign cash, precious metals...?
I thought that Australia got rid of their paper money when they moved to plastic polymer notes years ago.
"Computer Glitch Leaves Some Australians Without Cash"
If you live in Australia, you all gave up your guns and have nearly 100% trust that government won't become a tyranny. If you allow a cashless society to even begin, you will be giving up all ability to revolt, to organize, protest, resist in any way. You will be 100% slave to that system.
Make a stand, or you and your children and your children's children will be a slave forever.
I don't know about Australia, but I read yesterday in The Economist that the total amount of cash in circulation in the UK is still increasing every year. So the UK has not yet attained "peak cash".
I'd say Denmark, with Danske Bank's MobilePay, are quite far ahead. Allows transfers to customers at different banks, as it's card-to-card transactions. You can also use it to pay on the web.
When you get one it takes a long time but the store has it out of y account before I get home.
That is how you know the regular guy has no power at all over anything at all.
The more bitcoins will slip through your fingers.
Or, to use another meme, cash... finds a way.
Jews believe this about others they call goyim/gentiles: Jews = biggest racists of all (for which they "jew guilt" you for no less! They're hypocrites known as thieves all thru history or were Spain (1492), France (1306), Egypt (despoiled/robbed by jews), Arabs (post 1948), England (1330 Edward longshanks), Romans under titus, Russia pogroms and Germany who got rid of them from their nations nazi german's too? No:
1. Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."
2. Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."
3. Sanhedrin 59a: "A goy (Gentile) who pries into The Law (Talmud) is guilty of death."
4. Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is three years of age."
5. Schabouth Hag. 6d: "Jews may swear falsely by use of subterfuge wording."
6. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Do not save Goyim in danger of death."
7. Hilkkoth Akum X1: "Show no mercy to the Goyim."
8. Choschen Hamm 388, 15: "If it can be proven that someone has given the money of Israelites to the Goyim, a way must be found after prudent consideration to wipe him off the face of the earth."
9. Choschen Hamm 266,1: "A Jew may keep anything he finds which belongs to the Akum (Gentile). For he who returns lost property (to Gentiles) sins against the Law by increasing the power of the transgressors of the Law. It is praiseworthy, however, to return lost property if it is done to honor the name of God, namely, if by so doing, Christians will praise the Jews and look upon them as honorable people."
10. Szaaloth-Utszabot, The Book of Jore Dia 17: "A Jew should and must make a false oath when the Goyim asks if our books contain anything against them."
11. Baba Necia 114, 6: "The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not human beings but beasts."
12. Simeon Haddarsen, fol. 56-D: "When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2800 slaves."
13. Nidrasch Talpioth, p. 225-L: "Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night."
14. Aboda Sarah 37a: "A Gentile girl who is three years old can be violated."
15. Gad. Shas. 2:2: "A Jew may violate but not marry a non-Jewish girl."
16. Tosefta. Aboda Zara B, 5: "If a goy kills a goy or a Jew, he is responsible; but if a Jew kills a goy, he is NOT responsible."
17. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 388: "It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere. It is permitted to kill him even before he denounces."
18. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 348: "All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, which, consequently, is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples."
19. Tosefta, Abda Zara VIII, 5: "How to interpret the word 'robbery.' A goy is forbidden to steal, rob, or take women slaves, etc., from a goy or from a Jew. But a Jew is NOT forbidden to do all this to a goy."
20. Seph. Jp., 92, 1: "God has given the Jews power over the possessions and blood of all nations."
21. Schulchan Aruch, Choszen Hamiszpat 156: "When a Jew has a Gentile in his clutches, another Jew may go to the same Gentile, lend him money and in turn deceive him, so that the Gentile shall be ruined. For the property of a Gentile, according to our law, belongs to no one, and the first Jew that passes has full right to seize it."
22. Schulchan Aruch, Johre Deah, 122: "A Jew is forbidden to drink from a glass of wine which a Gentile has touched, because the touch has made the wine unclean."
23. Nedarim 23b: "He who desires that none of his vows made during the year be valid, let him stand at the beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I may make in the future shall be null'. His vows are then invalid."
Really nice people guess all nations are nazis (egypt "despoiling" robbing it, Romans under titus, russian pogroms, arab nations post 1948, england (1330) and more ki
People need to look at a cashless society from a STRATEGIC (what are the long term societal implications) versus a TACTICAL (what is the immediate impact on my day-to-day transactions) perspective:
1) If the government - or more specifically in this case, a consortium of financial companies - is able to have a hand in all your purchases, they'll be able to take a (larger and larger) cut of your purchases. It is the dream of Wall Street / City of London / etc to be able to get a cut of all transactions.
2) Or, they can have the government more effectively collect sales tax, then the people controlling the government can more easily get a cut of that money.
3) Also - as someone noted earlier: they could turn off your ability to buy, if everything is completely electronic. First take the guns and then the money, and where do you think society is going to head, from a strategic perspective, after that? Human nature has not changed that much. Look back at history. Look at how much more and more our economy is being based around government and the central bank and their actions.
--
hahaha - captcha was 'probed'
It's not terribly important when the entire nation of Australia has a population smaller than some of the world's largest cities (Shanghai, Tokyo, Delhi, and maybe Mexico City). Post some news when Australia is a cashless society, not when they maybe could become one some day. Right now it's conjecture. They still print currency, they still exchange coins.
Sweden is probably further along, but again Sweden's entire population is smaller than Australia's largest city. These are minuscule movements in nations that are almost of no consequence in the grand scheme of things.
When Hong Kong, Singapore, Mexico City, São Paulo and other major world cities take real action to eliminate physical currency, then we can talk.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
not "old cashless".
I suspect when you get away from the coastal cities, much of Australia has been "cashless" for generations. Rural populations have been doing barter and trade since before Christ was a corporal.
I know a LOT of people, especially those who are more "maker" and less "taker" who do a LOT of barter for things they want and/or need. And this sort of community building lifestyle is increasing and has for the better part of a decade.
Rural communities who'd be the biggest losers in the "new cashless" systems, in both support and exploitation, have been the biggest winners in the "old cashless" systems and will I suspect continue to do so.