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Safe Harbor Cost the US Music Industry Up To $1B in Lost Royalties Per Year, Study Finds (musicweek.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: For the first time, researchers have quantified the "value gap" and its impact on the US recorded music industry. A study published yesterday (March 29) by Washington, DC-based economy think tank the Phoenix Centre For Advanced Legal And Economic Public Policy Studies attempted to calculate how much revenue the recording industry loses from the distortions caused by the safe harbor provisions. Entitled Safe Harbors And The Evolution of Music Retailing, the study was conducted by T. Randolph Beard, George S. Ford and Michael Stern who applied "accepted economic modelling techniques" to simulate revenue effects from royalty rate changes on YouTube. It showed that if YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be significantly bigger. The premises used by the Phoenix Centre economists was that, according to the music recording industry, YouTube evades paying market rates for the use of copyrighted content by exploiting the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's "safe harbor" provisions, which allow to post creative content online in good faith and remove it if rights holders so require. Using 2015 data, the Phoenix Centre found that "a plausible royalty rate increase could produce increased royalty revenues in the US of $650 million to over one billion dollars a year."

194 comments

  1. Wait - WHAT? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Half the music posted on YouTube is by the musicians for promotion.
    So they are stealing from themselves?

    1. Re:Wait - WHAT? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      you cant "lose" something you didnt have to begin with. they really need to stop using the words wrong

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  2. Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It had to be paid for by the music industry or it would have shown the truth.
    The *truth* is that online sharing costs the entertainment industries absolutely *NOTHING*...

    The people who download file shares are the same people who never bought new music on casette tapes, 8-trakcs, vinyl albums or compact discs.
    They are the same people who copied VHS tapes, or dubbed cd to cassette, or vinyl to 8-track, recorded radio to cassette on their boom-boxes.

    In most cases, the media industry actually makes more money from downloaders than those that don't download. Why? Downloaders sample more music, television and movies than non-downloaders. That gives them a larger pool from which to find things they like. That usually means they find more gems worth purchasing.

    Yet another false study with false data and false results.

    1. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by OrangeTide · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've bought numerous albums on bandcamp because I stumbled onto them on YouTube.

      Now I understand that Bandcamp isn't likely included in the concerns of mainstream record companies. But I do believe that I am an active consumer that is spending money in this industry, and that I am not "stealing" billions of dollars.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    2. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Record companies HATE Bandcamp because it limits their ability to control access to the market, which in turn limits their negotiating power on contracts with artists.

    3. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly right. I'm not going to go plunk down $14-27 for vinyl I haven't heard yet. If I sample it on youtube and I like it I'll go buy it. If I don't have the opportunity to explore it first I'll save my cash. So if they take that away effectively they'll make less from me. And I know I'm not alone.

    4. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You bought the albums because you wanted to donate money to them.

      YouTube music can be stripped off the site extremely easy, hundreds of sites will do it instantly with just a URL and toss you back the mp3.

      Until they address sites like YouTube, which provide practically every song for free, there is no hope for the industry. They will not survive on your goodwill.

    5. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why? Downloaders sample more music, television and movies than non-downloaders. That gives them a larger pool from which to find things they like. That usually means they find more gems worth purchasing.

      Yet another false study with false data and false results.

      Funny story. I came across an old copy of Modern Recording magazine, from 1981.

      There was an article about "piracy". Back in the those olden times, the internet and personal computers didn't exist. The villain, according to the RIAA at that time, was cassette tape. People were, allegedly, recording their friends albums onto cassettes instead of buying them. So the RIAA commissioned this study that they hoped to use as proof that stronger laws were need.

      Unfortunately (for the RIAA) the study showed that people who owned cassette tape decks bought 75% more albums than people who didn't.

      The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    6. Re: Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They never learn. Before WW 2 the music industry fought tooth and nail to stop radio stations from playing music. They finally lost in the Supreme Court. By the 1950's they were being investigated for paying DJ's to play their music.
      They are trying everything in their power to stop modern media from playing music without paying for every note. They obviously don't have the ability to understand viral marketing.

    7. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've bought more tracks from using Shazam to identify things in music videos and resturant background music than I have buying music directly.

      Hell I've probably bought more music from standing around the "Lets Dance" Xbox One product demo at the mall than I have for hearing music on TV.

      There's not much music on TV, have you noticed? Most TV shows just have a bunch of static pieces for the Opening and Ending, and that's it. It's a licensing landmine to use music in a commercial product, the RIAA has hurt themselves more from chasing down contributory infringement than turning the other cheek and instead chasing down the actual morons selling pirated music on USB drives.

    8. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is no hope for the industry

      Tell your employers I, Anonymous Coward, said good riddance. Music existed in the 19th century before them and it'll exist in the 21st century without them. Tell them not to let the door hit them on the way out.

    9. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I bought a ton of music on cassette and vinyl during the 70s and 80s. I mostly played it in my car as I traveled a lot in my younger days. I listened to the radio as likely as not most of the rest of the time. I was never music crazy. I liked mostly rock and country and blues with some metal. Now I might go all day without the radio ever coming on. I listen to streaming music from my phone over my car stereo when I'm on a trip but I'm less into it now than ever. To think people lose their minds over this stuff is kind of bewildering. Billions of dollars to hear people sing.

    10. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neh, there's always going to be idiots that buy music, the profits of which 95% go to the middlemen. Music is so easy to download, especially with sites like YouTube, but people want to feel morally good or whatever.

    11. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there is no hope for the industry. They will not survive on your goodwill.

      We care about music, not the music industry.

      Music has survived for centuries without a bunch of scum-suckers profiteering off artists' work. These companies can live or die, and we do not care.

      You cannot survive on goodwill alone? Good luck, because you do not even have goodwill---except in Congress, where you can buy it.

    12. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Not with Bandcamp it doesn't:

      From bandcamp.com/pricing:

      Artist accounts are free. We make money through our revenue share on sales, which is 15% for digital, 10% for merch. We also offer Bandcamp Pro (our premium tier for artists), and Bandcamp for Labels, both for a monthly fee.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    13. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And that is exactly why I LOVE Bandcamp, because the money goes to the people doing the actual work.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    14. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      The sound quality is going to be utter shit for tracks ripped from Youtube.

      Contrast this with Bandcamp, where you get the music for download in any format you want (including lossless FLAC or ALAC), with perfect tagging, embedded cover art and unlimited streaming in the Bandcamp app.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    15. Re:Study was paid for by music industry... by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      And that's why we need sites like Bandcamp. You get to stream the tracks a limited number of times, so you know what you're buying. And 85% of the price you pay goes directly to the artists.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  3. Sounds sketchy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the music industry had things their way, music would be so restricted that nobody would be allowed to listen to it. At some point they have to realize that people listening to their stuff, even if not paying for it, has a lot of value.

  4. My how have the tables turned by OrangeTide · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The musicians are stealing from the record companies.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And the record companies, as usual, are claiming the "loss" of something they never had in the first place.

    2. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Bingo.

      Also the problem with RIAA specifically, is that it does not consider licensing.

      Eg, if I upload random song from my mp3 player to Youtube, and tick the "monetize" box. I don't have rights to that song, so I should not be allowed to make money off of it, but who actually does? The recording artist? (Eg see the *VEVO channels), The recording company directly? Google makes maybe a penny per 1000 views. If Google was paying RIAA rates for playing of music, youtube would have no music on it what-so-ever, because google has devalued advertising to the point where nobody makes anything from advertising revenue, and now the people who use music as background noise is inconsequential.

      The RIAA is barking up the wrong tree. They've simply over-valued music in non-contractually agreed to rates.

      From the study:
      " Industry data indicates that playing a song a subscription music service pays the recording industry about $0.008 per play,
      while the same play on YouTube offers compensation of only about $0.001"

      Yeah, and Youtube doesn't own that content and hasn't contractually agreed to pay the recording industry at those 0.008 rates. This is because people uploading the video aren't putting up a deposit to cover licensed use of the music, and the RIAA doesn't know if something has been licensed privately or not.

      So I take issue with the argument that these are "losses", the quality of using Youtube as a poor mans Spotify is terrible. If the RIAA really wants to get a handle on this issue, they should upload their entire back catalog to youtube, complete with instructions on how to buy and license the track, and then subsequently have youtube take down all non-fair use (eg straight uploads of the music, not music videos) copies off youtube. That solves the entire problem of Youtube being a piracy haven, by letting the RIAA get 100% of the revenue instead of the shitlord pirates.

    3. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      In my case, I'm being robbed both by my record label and by random assholes on the internet. My music is available where I've uploaded it on youtube, but I never see any revenue from it. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been paid to my record label and I've seen none of that money. What the original article about is how armies of random assholes will post music they didn't write and don't own any rights to, monetize the account via youtube, and collect money from it. Given that my music is already up, that also seems like stealing to me. Why should some dickhead in cyprus make money off my music?

    4. Re:My how have the tables turned by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Looking back, was there anything your record label did that you couldn't have done yourself?

      As for the losers on youtube ripping you off, it sucks that you're a little guy. The big guys have the resources to search and get YouTube to take that stuff down. You can track down and stop some guy in Cyprus from using your music, but he'll just go rip off some other small artists, he's not going away. I'm not saying you should accept the futility of it and do nothing, but that you may have to accept that what you have to do for yourself probably won't change things in the grand scheme.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    5. Re:My how have the tables turned by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

      hmm... stealing. Taking something that doesn't belong to you.
      So, are they taking credit for your music or are they creating links to what you already put on line so that you still get credit?
      What specifically are they taking that belongs to you?
      Obviously they can't take what you haven't made available. The assumption that people 'should' do often times varies depending on country and culture.
      'Copywrite' is a type of 'virtual' property the exits only because of certain western laws. It has a long and complicated history and I'd say that it is at more then debatable weather there is a philosophical / natural right to control what happens to the art you create once it has left your hand.
      Copywrite exists as a kind of carve out by western government to promote the arts and industries by allowing them to control the sails of copies of their art as a way of generating income. Historically no such 'right' existed before the 19th century.
      So, if someone is not in the united states and not subject to it's laws saying they are 'stealing' by not following laws that don't exist in their country is kind of like saying the Chinese government impinges on your freedom of speech by not allowing you to say what you want in their country. You would actually probably have a better claim, philosophically to the later, as there is a lot better argument to be made for the freedom of speech as a natural / moral right then there is for copyright.

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    6. Re:My how have the tables turned by gmack · · Score: 4, Informative

      Youtube already has a fix for this problem. Just use their Content ID sytem

      that lets you decide how to deal with other people using your music. You can block, mute, or monetize the infringing video.

    7. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 4, Interesting

      >Looking back, was there anything your record label did that you couldn't have done yourself? The song was featured in a flim that had a wide release in many theaters. Our record label paid the recording costs -- it was done by some really good engineers and mixed by Tom Lord-Alge. I'm a decent engineer myself (ahem, self promo) but there's no way I could achieve that kind of sonic quality. And the promotion we received was worth a LOT. I could never afford that kind of promotion. >As for the losers on youtube ripping you off, it sucks that you're a little guy. The big guys have the resources to search and get YouTube to take that stuff down. You can track down and stop some guy in Cyprus from using your music, but he'll just go rip off some other small artists, he's not going away. I'm not saying you should accept the futility of it and do nothing, but that you may have to accept that what you have to do for yourself probably won't change things in the grand scheme.

      I hope you'll acknowledge the impact the safe harbor provision has on little guys like me. Our label was a little guy too and has since folded as a functioning record label. I've filed a lot of DMCA notices. I can't put a song up on youtube without some bot scraping the audio and offering MP3 files for download. It's whack-a-mole from hell. If there was no safe harbor provision, I could sue a company (e.g., Youtube) that lets the cypriot asshole post my music and profit from it. Then, they might be motivated to help me profit from my music instead of criminals. I'm pretty sure you'd still get your music affordably. Removal of the safe harbor provision would not prevent you from making playlists of your favorite songs on youtube. I'd still put my music on youtube. It'd have no impact whatsoever on iTunes or Spotify or Rhapsody, etc. Safe harbor provision sucks IMHO.

    8. Re:My how have the tables turned by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Self-publish and distribute through TuneCore.

    9. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The intent of western copyright (at least as far as the U.S. founding fathers saw it)
      is an "orderly progression of art into the public (domain)." It was not established to
      protect the author (that's a consequence, but not it's core intent), but to clearly define
      and determine when his works would enter the public domain. It's original idea has
      been corrupted through lawmaker ignorance writing bad laws to this indefinite time-line
      of when works should enter the public domain - which right now, today, is effectively
      not in any person's lifetime that is alive today. Yes, Mickey should / is in the public domain.

      CAP === 'uncanny'

    10. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you have a problem with someone stripping music from your YT song uploads, then uploading them... but you apparently wouldn't have a problem when they do the same music stripping, but post it on their own (Cypriot or wherever) website full of ads and viruses that pay them similar money?

      Because that's what the Cypriot guy is thinking right now.

    11. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't make music, but I write novels. I've seen my novels on pirate websites (search for my name and pdf and they pop right up). It doesn't concern me in the slightest, and I'll tell you why.

      Possible consumers of my novels fall into three buckets - those that like my stuff and are willing to pay me for it, those that like my stuff but don't pay me for it because I'm charging too much/don't allow them to shift my book to their desired device/some other reason, and those who like my stuff, but aren't willing to pay a penny for it under any circumstances. There's absolutely nothing I can do to move people from that third group to another group. Nothing. But by trying to hinder that third group, through DRM for example, I can chase people from the second group into the third. So those people who regularly download my books are lost to me regardless, but that doesn't mean I've lost forever. Maybe they become a big enough fan through their pirated books that they decide to pay for some someday. Maybe they can't find all my books pirated and are forced at some point to actually break down and buy one if they want them all. Maybe they like it enough to mention it to someone who then goes and buys one. So many possibilities, and as a relatively unknown author, if nothing else, it serves as free publicity. Publicity is gold - Forty percent of people who read my first novel come back for more.

    12. Re:My how have the tables turned by sjames · · Score: 1

      There's a big question mark there. If safe harbor were removed, perhaps Youtube would just kill all videos with music (and you still get nothing). Or they might find a way to monetize the tracks and send the money to the label (and you get nothing). I'm not seeing the scenario where you get anything there, safe harbor or not.

      The central problem is that you agreed that the label gets the money until their accountant decides they've made enough.

    13. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 2

      hmm... stealing. Taking something that doesn't belong to you. So, are they taking credit for your music or are they creating links to what you already put on line so that you still get credit?

      They are taking music from a CD -- or scraping it directly from youtube, etc., they are uploading it -- not for personal enjoyment but to monetize it on youtube. Note that I've already uploaded it there myself.

      What specifically are they taking that belongs to you?

      I think I know where you are headed with this. I believe they are taking my right to profit from my music. It's not fair use IMHO, it's a cynical appropriation of something they did not create for the purpose of profiting.

      Obviously they can't take what you haven't made available. The assumption that people 'should' do often times varies depending on country and culture.

      Obviously. And if I don't make my music available? Aside from the crushing loss the world will suffer (sarcasm), what would be the point in making any music. I don't want to encourage these (rather poor) attempts at philosophy, but I would point out that if artists did not make their art available, then art itself is likely to disappear--at least in any public or social sense.

      'Copywrite' is a type of 'virtual' property the exits only because of certain western laws. It has a long and complicated history and I'd say that it is at more then debatable weather there is a philosophical / natural right to control what happens to the art you create once it has left your hand.

      First of all, it's called Copyright. Second, as a once-and-future recording artist, I'm abundantly aware of the implications of releasing recorded music into the world in a really florid and extravagant way that a lot of folks will never understand. Releasing music is an experience fraught with anxiety, excitement, potential embarrassment, etc. Art theory has a lot to say about this kind of thing. I'm well aware of it. But rather than getting lost in the philosophical weeds, I'd like to focus on the safe harbor provision.

      Copywrite exists as a kind of carve out by western government to promote the arts and industries by allowing them to control the sails of copies of their art as a way of generating income. Historically no such 'right' existed before the 19th century.

      Again, it's Copyright, not "copywrite." And yes, I know this too. You can see the relative lack of copyright/trademark protection in places like China where everyone was creating counterfeit iphones and apple stores that had no connection whatsoever to the Apple Corp that we all know and love/hate. While it is certainly arguable that copyright law is a mistake, I think it might be worth comparing the cultural output of nations that protect copyright versus those who don't. I might be culturally myopic and maybe I'm totally missing the next big thing, but I'm not really aware of any tremendous musical movement emanating from countries who do NOT respect copyright. And as long as we're talking philosophically, do you feel that it is moral for someone to profit from someone else's labor when they did nothing at all to assist? When people wax philosophical over copyright and fair use and such, this often gets overlooked. I strongly feel that some dickhead in cyprus ripping CDs and uploading songs to the internet not for enjoyment but to sell them is an asshole -- especially if the music is already there and available for a free listen on youtube or SoundCloud or something. Remove of safe harbor provision would introduce market conditions that would discourage this type of bottom feeder.

      So, if someone is not in the united states and not subject to it's laws saying they are 'stealing' by not following laws that don't exist in their country is kind of like saying the Chinese government impinges on your freedom of speech by not allowing you

    14. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      There's a big question mark there. If safe harbor were removed, perhaps Youtube would just kill all videos with music (and you still get nothing). Or they might find a way to monetize the tracks and send the money to the label (and you get nothing). I'm not seeing the scenario where you get anything there, safe harbor or not.

      Perhaps, but I think that Youtube and artists would work it out. There's too much money at stake and the solution seems pretty easy to me: find some way to demonstrate ownership of copyrighted matieral. I would point out that youtube requires you to demonstrate ownership of a musical work in order to even file a DMCA takedown notice. Why not move this proof of ownership to the front end. It might mean you have only one video of my song instead of several hundred, but the music would still be there. In fact, youtube and the big labels seem pretty cozy to me. As for the label taking all the money and me getting none, that is alreayd happening now. I fail to see how that would get any worse.

      The central problem is that you agreed that the label gets the money until their accountant decides they've made enough.

      Things are considerably more complicated in that in my case. Oversimplifications like this are kind of insulting, and not especially helpful IMHO.

    15. Re:My how have the tables turned by sjames · · Score: 2

      As for the label taking all the money and me getting none, that is alreayd happening now. I fail to see how that would get any worse.

      It won't. It can't. But it won't get any better either. Safe harbor didn't make that happen.

      Things are considerably more complicated in that in my case. Oversimplifications like this are kind of insulting, and not especially helpful IMHO.

      I'm not intending to insult you, but the facts as you presented them show that some how, some way, the label got legal first dibs. That is not youtube's fault and it's not because of safe harbor.

      The guy from Cypress shouldn't be making money off of the work, but apparently he isn't why you're not making any money from it.

    16. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sound like an idiot. You can't blame YouTube for the problems you are having. That is like blaming your ISP if Facebook's servers are down. Yes, you need the ISP to get to Facebook but THAT part of the equation is working. Its the relationship between you and your label that is the root cause of the issue, not the relationship between you and YouTube.

    17. Re:My how have the tables turned by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

      So, I'm reading up on my history. I apparently had some bad information fed to me in high school because I very clearly remember being taught that copyright law was almost non existent until an outcry after the death of Stephen foster. The who of which seems to have been a myth.
      https://www.copyright.gov/circ...
      http://www.pitt.edu/~amerimus/...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      On the other hand what you are saying doesn't make all that much sense either , because without copyright law the 'public domain' simply does not exist, or if it does all works once first sale occur exist within in.

      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    18. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      It won't. It can't. But it won't get any better either. Safe harbor didn't make that happen.

      I think there is a case to be made that safe harbor does in fact make this happen. To wit: if the Cypriot guy wasn't siphoning off the royalties we receive from Youtube with his own competing video on Youtube, then our record label might reach a particular recoupment threshold and then the accountant would start sending me more money. I think the original article linked in this thread (which I haven't read) is trying to make this same point. The Cypriot guy is protected by the safe harbor provision, which says I cannot seek legal relief from Youtube in a civil court because Youtube is not only allowing some other guy to upload my music, but is also paying that dude money. Removing the safe harbor provision would allow me to put legal pressure on Youtube and maybe claim the money paid to that guy.

      I'm not intending to insult you, but the facts as you presented them show that some how, some way, the label got legal first dibs. That is not youtube's fault and it's not because of safe harbor.

      I appreciate your politeness here and it's not my intent to attack you, but collecting money from music is crazy complicated. There are various types of royalties (songwriter, publisher) which are collected by ASCAP or BMI and paid directly to me, there are others that go through the record label -- depending on one's own contracts with labels, bandmates, distributors, etc. The whole process is byzantine AF. It's hard enough chasing down legal revenues. Filing DMCA against a whole other collection of bandits (not just enabled by Youtube but literally hosted and paid by them) one at a time would be unnecessary if things were just a little different. Safe harbor provision of DMCA prevents me from bringing any legal action against giant, wealthy ISPs to modify their practices. As you can imagine, it just adds to the frustration.

      The guy from Cypress shouldn't be making money off of the work, but apparently he isn't why you're not making any money from it.

      I'm glad we agree that he shouldn't be making money off it. I don't think you are aware of how he contributes to what is already a difficult problem for recording artists. He's not the only reason I'm getting screwed, but he's definitely part of a larger picture.

    19. Re:My how have the tables turned by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1
      --
      âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
    20. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I enjoyed the link you provided, thank you.

    21. Re:My how have the tables turned by Mattcelt · · Score: 1

      As a fellow artist, I empathise completely. And your points are very well articulated.

      If I may, I'd like to offer a few thoughts of my own.

      First, in my own experience, I am sick of corporations exploiting artists, wringing them out, squeezing them dry, and tossing them away (often penniless). This obviously doesn't apply to some small, honest labels and distributors (and it sounds as if you had an above-average experience with your label - I'm saddened that they folded), but it certainly does apply to larger labels; to ASCAP/BMI/etc.; and the governments that have structured the system to be favourable to the companies (and allow them to shit on artists with impunity). For example: an ex-gf of mine had some music air as part of a national television show. Nominally (according to ASCAP's published rates), she should have received in the neighbourhood of $8,000 in royalties. But because her "share" was small that year, she received - in total - ~$38.00. So other, larger artists were paid the rest of the $7,900 she earned (after ASCAP already took their cut, of course). The royalty and residuals industry is completely corrupt. (And never mind that ASCAP has what amounts to a government-mandated monopoly in the US, allowing it to collect royalties on behalf of non-ASCAP members... which those artists rarely, if ever, see.)

      So I have no interest in paying my hard-earned money to companies who rape their golden geese. As a result, I acquire freely, and whenever I have the opportunity, give money directly to the artists. (And the 50 euro I send is the equivalent of what, 200-500 album sales in royalties for most artists?) If more people did as I do, I think we'd see much more power in the hands of artists.

      Not that I think (all) artists deserve to be paid for (all of) their work. That said, IF anyone does deserve to be paid, it is the artist - those cunts in Cyprus are most definitely stealing from you, and should be drawn and quartered. But I know from personal experience that some of my songs (songs I've worked long and hard on) are shit, and I don't deserve to be compensated for them, no matter how hard I worked. What I give to the artists is not a gift, but it isn't a salary, either - it's an expression of gratitude and appreciation for the work that I, as a consumer, feel it appropriate for it. Any artist who insists that I owe them simply because they worked hard won't get my money, ever; no one on Earth is entitled to be paid. Every payment for work, everywhere, is a contract between the payer and payee - and there are some "artists" who I would rather pay to STOP making their "music". But that's entirely subjective on my part, and others can disagree - and are free to give them as much as they like.

      But for any artist whose work does earn, I think governments should mandate the minimum percentage artists should be paid for any monies received. This has been missing since the very beginning of the industry, and harms artists more than any other single issue. So while your case for eliminating safe harbour is well-received, I think if we fixed the payments structure systemically, you might not care as much about those Cypriot wankers, who are, let's be fair, the ones taking sloppy fifty-seconds in the queue of people who have been stealing from you (and from all of us) all along.

    22. Re:My how have the tables turned by Mattcelt · · Score: 1

      And just as an aside... have you considered beating them at their own game? Taking their videos (with your music) and reposting them for your own monetisation? It's not as if they can claim copyright, since it's all derivative work...

    23. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      In short, what you're advocating is that you should kill YouTube. I'm not sure what the fallout means for you personally, but if you had no YouTube nor any replacement because they're all subject to the same death sentence, exactly where are you going to promote yourself?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    24. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      I'm glad we agree that he shouldn't be making money off it. I don't think you are aware of how he contributes to what is already a difficult problem for recording artists. He's not the only reason I'm getting screwed, but he's definitely part of a larger picture.

      He's actually an afterthought in why you're getting screwed. The labels are the primary, and until artists realize it nothing will change. However, they hold such a monopoly on things these days that even an established artist with a large fan base cannot really go it alone.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    25. Re: My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ridiculous. You should work (in your case perform in front of an audience or something), like the rest of us have to, instead of whining about not getting paid for doing nothing.

    26. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      And just as an aside... have you considered beating them at their own game? Taking their videos (with your music) and reposting them for your own monetisation? It's not as if they can claim copyright, since it's all derivative work...

      This would only dilute the monetary stream further. The key, from an artists perspective, is to make sure the material is on every platform, but only in one place. Otherwise, all of the analytics, everything is diluted.

    27. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      In short, what you're advocating is that you should kill YouTube.

      This assertion, made without proof of any kind, is laughable. Youtube is not going anywhere.

    28. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      He's actually an afterthought in why you're getting screwed.

      Respectfully, you don't know the particulars of my personal situation. The record label has been quite ethical. There are other entities in the money collection chain that make it difficult for them to get pair properly. In particular, Youtube and Spotify seem to be raking money hand-over-fist. Daniel Elk, founder of Spotify comes to mind as someone benefitting disproportionately from other people's work. But that's tricky. He is arguably helping artists. I'm not sure he's helping us to the tune of $400M dollars, though.

      The labels are the primary, and until artists realize it nothing will change. However, they hold such a monopoly on things these days that even an established artist with a large fan base cannot really go it alone.

      This has pretty much always been the case and a source of lamentation for artists since the concept of a record label was created. I think it is a fundamental aspect of capitalism that the people with the power and the money keep both the power and the money. The only thing that can tip that balance is either some kind of revolution or collective bargaining (which I could totally get behind) OR legislation. At the moment, the safe harbor provision prevents anyone (artists, record labels, etc.) from suing an OSP (online service provider) for any customer/member hosting one's music without permission. Think for a moment about who the OSPs are and you might realize that they are not your favorite companies either.

    29. Re:My how have the tables turned by sjames · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that if your own label is taking down your attempts to monetize on youtube, they'd be sure to shoot his down using the DMCA process or youtube's streamlined notification method explicitly created for labels. That's part of their job, after all.

      I am not in the music business but I have seen some of the goings on and I agree it is truly byzantine and generally only works well for the big names (and not even then often enough). Safe harbor strikes me as a spit in the ocean compared to all of that plus the very special accounting. But the most likely result of removing safe harbor would be an end to any sort of user posted content on the web. Would you be willing to bet your legal future that none of your users (even if just people commenting on your blog) would ever post a copyrighted work of any kind? Possibly even just to cause trouble? I'll bet most sane people wouldn't. Would you be willing to bet on the world's copyright lawyer's forgiving nature? Anyone reading /. knows better than that.

      Would it be fair for /. to be on the hook if I cut paste a copyrighted work here?

      Definitely contact your label about the guy from Cypress. They can probably get him pulled down or re-direct the ad revenue to themselves.

    30. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      That solves the entire problem of Youtube being a piracy haven, by letting the RIAA get 100% of the revenue instead of the shitlord pirates.

      And replaces it with a system where YouTube gets to profit off the entire RIAA back catalogue yet also to dictate to the rightsholders how much it's generously going to pay them for the privilege through ad rates it unilaterally controls. This isn't how copyright was supposed to work. In fact, it is the very antithesis of how copyright was supposed to work, and since the primary reason to have copyright at all is to generate economic incentives in creative markets analogous to markets for physical goods, I'm not sure this alternative makes much sense. If you wanted to go in that general direction, I think you'd be better off with a compulsory licensing regime and royalty rates that are determined by a state regulator and known up-front by all participants in the system.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    31. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      But you missed a fourth group, which is the people who enjoy your novel and would have been happy to pay for it if they'd found a legitimate source first, but who actually found it somewhere else and maybe even paid the unauthorised source for it instead of you.

      As someone else doing relatively small-scale creative business, I can testify that this group can be a significant one, and I both sympathise and empathise with the situation that sneakyimp has described in terms of watching people ripping your stuff on YouTube and finding them hiding behind the safe harbour provisions even when it is clearly an ongoing problem and you have made them well aware of it.

      I'll add a little from personal experience. Under the DMCA and similar laws, safe harbour is rarely an absolute protection, and typically those appealing to it are still expected to have some mechanism for dealing with persistent infringement, such as stopping the account of the infringer. In our experience, YouTube have shown no willingness to do this, and any attempt to contact them about it at their published email address for such matters just gets something boilerplatey back that directs you to their online form for filing a single DMCA complaint... again. Perhaps when they're dealing with anyone big enough that they are likely to take real action and have the resources to do it, YouTube follow other processes, but from a legal point of view it looks like they would have forfeited their safe harbour protection in a case like ours if we'd wanted to make a point of it.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    32. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no. did you read your own link? "YouTube only grants Content ID to copyright owners who meet specific criteria. To be approved, they must own exclusive rights to a substantial body of original material that is frequently uploaded by the YouTube user community."

      small fries don't get content ID access. reason being, it takes administrative work on youtube's part. if you're not worth it to them they don't let you sign up.

    33. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Would it be fair for /. to be on the hook if I cut paste a copyrighted work here?

      If you did it once, and when informed of the problem they promptly removed it, perhaps not. I don't think it's a clear-cut issue, but there are obvious costs to having every piece of hosted third party content potentially incur liability, and it may be that the net benefits to society of making it easier to run a hosting service do outweigh the costs.

      If there was a pattern of you doing it, and they were aware of that pattern, and they didn't then do something reasonable about it, I think that's a different question and potentially the cost/benefit ratio of allowing that practice is also different.

      If they actively built a business out of that kind of infringement, such infringement continues to be widespread and conducted by large numbers of their users, it is reasonable to assume they are well aware of this, and they continue to make lots of money from it? That's a different question again.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    34. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The only thing that can tip that balance is either some kind of revolution or collective bargaining (which I could totally get behind) OR legislation.

      Well, a review of the principles underlying IP regulation/legislation does seem long overdue. Intellectual property rights in their current form often are not creating effective competitive markets, which is their raison d'être. The most important players in the creative markets are the creators and the consumers/society, yet current incentives are mostly directed towards the middleman services. Given that those services are provided to creators, if competition were functioning effectively, this would be driving compensation for creators up and margins in the services down, but often that does not seem to be happening.

      The economics of creative industries are complex at the best of times, and maybe the legal frameworks we've relied on in the past just don't do a very good job any more with the possibilities created by modern technologies and communications channels. But in that case, they should be changed, and IMHO that change should go back to first principles and start with how (and indeed how much) we want to incentivize the creation and distribution of new works for the benefit of society. The legal and regulatory landscape should be dictated by that underlying policy. The scope for any secondary services and how much of any money moving around they ultimately receive should in turn follow naturally from whatever best promotes the original goal.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    35. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Even if YouTube did go away, who is to say that would be a bad thing and it wouldn't naturally be replaced by something different and perhaps better? We take a lot in the technology world for granted because once, often long ago, it somehow won and became the default way of doing things. That doesn't necessarily mean it was or remains the best or even a good way of doing things, particularly if after the incumbent had become established the barriers to something else developing became high. Personally I think the centralisation of the Internet in recent years, and the disproportionate and largely unearned influence it gives to a few big hosting services and gatekeepers, is a prime example of this.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    36. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I googled "novels by anonymous coward ", but nothing of interest comes up.

    37. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I could never afford that kind of promotion."

      Some guy in Cyprus is apparently doing a great job promoting your work and it isn't costing you anything.

      There is nothing new here. Before everything was digital and easily copied everyone had dozens of tapes to the 5 or 6 they could/would afford to buy. When you could buy something it was from the best you'd heard on the stuff traded around.

    38. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said. Yes there is the fourth group mentioned by someone else responding (although I highly doubt it's ever as significant as he suggests) and there is even a fifth group... the really dedicated consumers who simply consume more content than they could/would ever buy (or collect/hoard it even without consuming it).

      This is a massive group. Do you know how many people I know with a personal archive of thousands of digital books and gigs upon gigs of mp3s and even terrabytes of movies/tv and/or all of the above? All of them buy content as well and yes they do make recommendations and people listen. On paper these are the worst pirates and amount to lost revenue figures off the charts but there is no way some guy barely makiing above minimum wage and living in a trailer park and all his friends combined was ever going to buy the movies he watches in a week or buy all the books his wife chain reads.

    39. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Obviously. And if I don't make my music available? Aside from the crushing loss the world will suffer (sarcasm), what would be the point in making any music. I don't want to encourage these (rather poor) attempts at philosophy, but I would point out that if artists did not make their art available, then art itself is likely to disappear--at least in any public or social sense."

      And yet some of the greatest art, including music, ever produced by mankind was created before copyright. Some would argue that only those who make music because they love music are worth listening to anyway and that there is no particular reason that making a career of it needs to pay more than fixing cars. There are no shortage of people who love music who would gladly make music professionally for what many artists get paid for a single live performance. Getting paid for performances doesn't require copyright.

    40. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your entitlement sucks IMHO. YouTube's system is ALREADY going way above and beyond, and it's basically run by the rights groups. It crushes fair use, and essentially ignores any appeal that doesn't generate media attention. So you feel entitled to impose the cost on them, to further verify all uploaded content? How? And how could it exist with that massive cost?
      What you're proposing, eliminating safe harbor, is essentially saying because you're not making enough money, you want to shut down any site that allows user generated content if they don't become your copyright enforcer and do better than 99% accuracy. Their job isn't to actively help you make money. If they're actively helping infringers that's a valid point of complaint, but simply failing to perfectly enforce other peoples copyrights when not even aware of it is simply beyond reason. That sucks. What's worse is that you don't sound like a stupid person, so you know that no safe harbor means no sites that allow user contributed video/audio without being a paid subscription service, and think that all the benefits of having places like that fail in the face of your entitlement to having someone else enforce civil law against 3rd parties. So with all due respect, fuck you.

    41. Re:My how have the tables turned by KitFox · · Score: 1

      The fourth group doesn't exist if things are done right. They end up falling into the first three. The ones in group one find it and buy it. The ones in group two discover it's too much of a pain to buy/use/etc based on how it's sold. The ones in group three still are in group three. Take this from somebody who made tens of thousands from publishing a hard copy of a novel posted in its entirety and DRM-free online. Then the places that charge for it are not covered by safe harbor. Plus how can you tell if somebody would pay you for your song before they heard it if they found it on YouTube instead? (Generic "You") Of my published novels, every single one that was published officially without any free online version ended up getting existing-fan traffic only. As soon as I put a free version online, my sales skyrocketed and any time I had a surge in sales, I could easily find the repost that generated it.

      Read the horror stories of people who have been wrongly hit with account loss for falsely-claimed infringement and you'll know that they absolutely do handle repeat offenders. Are you certain you're seeing the same account put your music back up after you have it taken down, over and over, more than three times? Or are you seeing multiple people, new accounts, and/or not taking the basic steps of filing the DMCAs (don't ask about them. Just file them and watch the results. Trust me, I've filed plenty on YouTube and the results are very swift.) and, if applicable, submitting your content to the music DNA system to look for signatures automatically and proactively for you?

      --

      @Whee

    42. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the music is popular enough, the creator will get money for it.
      If it isn't popular enough, the creator probably shouldn't be expecting to gain money for it.

      It is people like you who are, by wishing their creations were commercial successes, when they are not, fuck over the rest of society by imposing rules which "help the little guy" by screwing over everyone else.

    43. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you agree that you should be responsible for copyright infringement if a bot spams links to warez in comments on your website?

    44. Re: My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take it up with your record company arsehole

    45. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There should be no "safe" harbors. Everyone should pay whatever the RIAA deems their desired pricing. Everyone else should be put in jail.

    46. Re:My how have the tables turned by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Personally, I moved from piracy to a premium Spotify subscription. Don't get me wrong, I've bought a lot of CDs and a lot of LPs, in fact here's my collection on Discogs: https://www.discogs.com/user/H... (I'm only ~halfway through scanning my CDs, and I haven't started on the LPs yet).

      But I pirated a hell of a lot more than I bought legitimately. At one point, I just reasoned with myself "am I really so fucking cheap, that $10 is enough to make me keep downloading illegally?"

      Once a good enough legal option comes along, you can at least win over the "casual pirates", and people like me who could never keep up with all the music they like, in a legal way.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    47. Re:My how have the tables turned by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Well said. Yes there is the fourth group mentioned by someone else responding (although I highly doubt it's ever as significant as he suggests) and there is even a fifth group... the really dedicated consumers who simply consume more content than they could/would ever buy (or collect/hoard it even without consuming it).

      This is a massive group. Do you know how many people I know with a personal archive of thousands of digital books and gigs upon gigs of mp3s and even terrabytes of movies/tv and/or all of the above? All of them buy content as well and yes they do make recommendations and people listen. On paper these are the worst pirates and amount to lost revenue figures off the charts but there is no way some guy barely makiing above minimum wage and living in a trailer park and all his friends combined was ever going to buy the movies he watches in a week or buy all the books his wife chain reads.

      That would be me. I hit the 50,000 track upload limit on Google Play Music quite easily. I had terabytes of downloaded movies and TV series, which I never got around to actually watching.

      Getting a Spotify subscription and getting rid of all the junk I was never going to listen to/watch anyway was tremendously good for my mental well-being (not even joking).

      --
      Eat the rich.
    48. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      The fourth group doesn't exist if things are done right.

      It really does. An existence proof is that I've seen people rip material and then offer it with their own branding applied from their own source(s), and I've then seen other people who have supported that (including financially) and whose public comments make it obvious that they think they're supporting the original creators of the work. Those people liked the work and demonstrably were willing to support it financially in whatever way, they were just unknowingly supporting the wrong person.

      Are you certain you're seeing the same account put your music back up after you have it taken down, over and over, more than three times?

      Yes (though it wasn't music in our case).

      In the most recent incident, it was unmistakably our content, right up to the point of sometimes forgetting to remove our URLs from videos and the like while slapping the infringer's own channel branding all over it. It was posted by the exact same account, along with obvious infringements of various other people's work. In some cases it was even removed and then the exact same content reposted a few days later by the same account.

      We filed DMCA requests against each infringing video for a few days, and then eventually sent a separate email to YouTube pointing out the persistent infringement and that we had already filed numerous separate takedown notices against that account. This went back and forth a couple of times, but the bottom line was whoever was replying didn't even seem to be reading the basic details we were sending, and we were just getting fobbed off with form content about needing to submit a proper takedown notice and being directed back to the same takedown notice page that we'd already been using and had told them we'd already been using. At no point did they even seem to acknowledge being informed about the ongoing and repeated infringement or understand that notifying them of this was the purpose of our separate email.

      I can't speak about anyone else's experiences here. I'm just offering a data point that we have followed these processes very recently, and found them to be totally ineffective. We actually got results by taking action directly against the infringer, who apparently subsequently pulled the content from YouTube voluntarily before YT's staff did anything about it (but still a considerable time after the original takedown notices were submitted). It's hard for me to see how YouTube's actions would have qualified as either acting reasonably quickly to remove material after receiving a proper takedown notice under the DMCA or meeting their obligation under the same law to deal with persistent infringement.

      Apparently your experience and ours have been wildly different. Maybe it was different timing, or because you were talking about music and we were talking about other types of video, or just that you got the diligent agent and we got the guy phoning it in. Whatever the cause, the bottom line is that their system apparently did absolutely nothing to protect or help us in that case.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    49. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ask yourself where you would be without YouTube users sharing your music. Where would you get exposure? Safe harbour provisions are there to protect fair use which the RIAA and MPAA have lost any concept of. Waste your time with DMCA notices if you want but why not start your own channel and promote the artists on your label directly? Link to where fans can buy the real stuff.

      It's actually surprising to see the "little guys like me" be so out of touch with how things work these days. And no, that Cypriot asshole isn't making money off your song and he/she were, it would never be money that was going into your pocket.

    50. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      In particular, Youtube and Spotify seem to be raking money hand-over-fist. Daniel Elk, founder of Spotify comes to mind as someone benefitting disproportionately from other people's work. But that's tricky. He is arguably helping artists. I'm not sure he's helping us to the tune of $400M dollars, though.

      And this is where you're mistaken in a whole lot of things. First, Spotify's revenue is about $200M US a year. It's actually posting a loss, meaning there's no profit at the end of that. Ek's worth is based off what investors think Spotify is worth as a company, which really has little to do with what you're paid, which is a function of revenue they bring in minus musicians payouts, which appears to be a sizable portion of what they're bringing in.

      At the moment, the safe harbor provision prevents anyone (artists, record labels, etc.) from suing an OSP (online service provider) for any customer/member hosting one's music without permission. Think for a moment about who the OSPs are and you might realize that they are not your favorite companies either.

      OSPs aren't my favorite, but they have little to nothing to do with your situation. Take Spotify above, even if they paid all their revenue to musicians, you'd still be bitching. I say that because apparently that's about what Spotify is doing today. You make say that they're not paying enough and charge them more, but all that happens at that point is that they fail and go away. Same for YouTube (effectively, they'll stop hosting all music) and radio, which will just do more classical and talk of various sorts. The people, your direct customers, have decided they're willing to pay about $1 / song when they buy music, and are willing to spend about $10 / month for a streaming source. They also likely only have 'x' to spend each year (totaling something like $15B last I looked) Now, somehow, that $15B need to be equitably divided among the artists. I'd say you start looking at what slice your contributions made to that pie and how much you're getting from it. I'd claim that Spotify and other OSPs are not currently really profiting from your efforts, although the traffic does help them in other ways.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    51. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      What do you think will happen if every little creator gets the rights to sue YouTube for every copyright and DMCA violation?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    52. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      What do you think will happen if every little creator gets the rights to sue YouTube for every copyright and DMCA violation?

      What makes you think they will?

    53. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      Not every single one has to, only enough. And before you ask, no, I don't know what that number is, but given history, money will drive demand and people like yourself already demonstrate a demand even without money.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    54. Re:My how have the tables turned by sneakyimp · · Score: 1

      And this is where you're mistaken in a whole lot of things. First, Spotify's revenue is about $200M US a year. It's actually posting a loss, meaning there's no profit at the end of that.

      It is you who are mistaken in a whole lot of thigns. Spotify's revenue in 2015 was $2.18B -- about 10 times higher than your number and 80% higher than the previous year. Yes they posted a loss, but that is common for startups in growth mode. They will likely make a tidy profit this year

      Ek's worth is based off what investors think Spotify is worth as a company, which really has little to do with what you're paid, which is a function of revenue they bring in minus musicians payouts, which appears to be a sizable portion of what they're bringing in.

      The worth of Spotify as a company has everything to do with what it pays artists. To Spotify, artists represent a cost. The goal of any business is to reduce costs as much as possible while maximizing income. Spotify is no different than any other music lable/aggregator/distributor. They acquire content rights and monetize it. But let's not get into the weeds. Is Elk's contribution really worth $400M? Seems kinda unfair to me.

      I was going to respond to your last paragraph but I'm not even sure where to start. It's just a smattering of dubious, contradictory, and speculative assertions. For instance, you claim that OSPs (e.g., Youtube) are "not currently really profiting from your efforts" while previously you accused me of wanting to destroy youtube by denying them music. I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead to such posts.

    55. Re:My how have the tables turned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without the safe harbor provision, youtube wouldn't exist: the legal liability posed by the "Cypriot assholes" would have made it impossible to get beyond the tech demo stage. Youtube as a company would never have been formed, and Google would never have bought Youtube, and we'd lack a major video-sharing site. Instead, you'd have videos being shared in something more like a Pirate Bay setup.

    56. Re:My how have the tables turned by sjames · · Score: 1

      If you did it once, and when informed of the problem they promptly removed it, perhaps not. I don't think it's a clear-cut issue, but there are obvious costs to having every piece of hosted third party content potentially incur liability, and it may be that the net benefits to society of making it easier to run a hosting service do outweigh the costs.

      And thus, safe harbor.

      If there was a pattern of you doing it, and they were aware of that pattern, and they didn't then do something reasonable about it, I think that's a different question and potentially the cost/benefit ratio of allowing that practice is also different.

      Youtube will terminate your account if you keep doing it. Seems reasonable.

      If they actively built a business out of that kind of infringement, such infringement continues to be widespread and conducted by large numbers of their users, it is reasonable to assume they are well aware of this, and they continue to make lots of money from it? That's a different question again.

      Youtube never suggested it, carries a great deal more content than that. (keep in mind, a significant amount of the music posted is actually done by promoters authorized by the copyright owner to do so).

    57. Re:My how have the tables turned by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      It is you who are mistaken in a whole lot of thigns. Spotify's revenue in 2015 was $2.18B -- about 10 times higher than your number and 80% higher than the previous year. Yes they posted a loss, but that is common for startups in growth mode. They will likely make a tidy profit this year

      Actually, those numbers were from further back than I thought, about 5 years ago. If they're at 2.2B now, that's a nice 10-fold growth. However, they've yet to post a profit. Sounds like Amazon, without the monopoly.

      The worth of Spotify as a company has everything to do with what it pays artists. To Spotify, artists represent a cost. The goal of any business is to reduce costs as much as possible while maximizing income. Spotify is no different than any other music lable/aggregator/distributor. They acquire content rights and monetize it. But let's not get into the weeds. Is Elk's contribution really worth $400M? Seems kinda unfair to me.

      Seems like it's nothing the artists couldn't have done and bought into as an aggregate group. In fact, as a group... I'll leave that thought unsaid.

      I was going to respond to your last paragraph but I'm not even sure where to start. It's just a smattering of dubious, contradictory, and speculative assertions. For instance, you claim that OSPs (e.g., Youtube) are "not currently really profiting from your efforts" while previously you accused me of wanting to destroy youtube by denying them music. I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead to such posts.

      I'm hurt, the last paragraph is actually chock full of statements.

      First, OSPs aren't making money off your work. They are not reselling your music and, in fact, host at their cost. Are you paying YouTube for hosting your self-promoting material? I thought not. Would they make as much without your content? No, but neither would you.

      I took your statements about your desire to sue OSPs and took it too its natural conclusion, which truly isn't really any different than what has been proposed by various rights holders in the past - they all want pay for play. Actual customers so far have basically said "take a hike".

      I also stated what's pretty much the going rate for music. Songs are about $1 each and streaming packages are roughly 10-15/month. The market will not bear more. That's the music revenue base you have to work with, and it's usually capped as well - meaning nothing on your side will really grow revenue in the aggregate.

      My last statement was based on the 2015 estimate of global music revenue, stated to be slightly over $15B US. So music is definitely bringing in revenue. If you're not seeing any and your contributions are more than 0% of the pie, perhaps I could state it this clearly: I guarantee you it's not the OSPs that are taking it.

      I'm not sure what was so hard about that, other than the "looking in the mirror" part. I'll understand if you don't like it, and you're free to disagree, much like Trump and his belief that "clean coal" doesn't affect the climate.

      I'll leave you with this thought - what you get in this life is a combination of right time, right place, and a good dose of luck when you make the right decisions. Be happy with your decisions, it's pretty much the only thing you control.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  5. Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by locopuyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Someone watching a youtube video does not equate to a lost "sale" from a streaming service. The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song.

    1. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 2

      That's not even entirely true. I own a respectable CD and audio cassette collection, I subscribe to multiple streaming services, and I've even bought a number of music downloads through various industry-backed services. I still put together YouTube music playlists because, sometimes, it's just more convenient. Much of what appears on those playlists is music I already own; all of it is music I have access to through the various streaming services I pay for.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the poor starving musicians. What are they going to do if they cant charge you album prices to use their music in the background of your home movies? You want to show these home movies to friends and families? Pay a performance license of several hundred dollars. If we did this then all musicians would be filthy rich just as God intended them to be. /s

    3. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by RelaxedTension · · Score: 2

      Someone watching a youtube video does not equate to a lost "sale" from a streaming service. The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song.

      What they are saying is that if the video with that copyrighted music was properly registered as that copyrighted work, Youtube would be paying a royalty for it or monetizing it for the record company/artist. Since it was uploaded by a user and not registered as the copyrighted work, Youtube does not pay for it until after it is discovered. It is not saying these were lost sales.

      What they did not seem to mention was the knock-on effect of purchases made by people that heard the music in those unregistered videos that would likely bring down that $1 billion amount quite significantly.

    4. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You wouldn't pay for the Youtube content, and Google doesn't necessarily have the money to pay (it's allocated elsewhere). You paid for the CDs and for Spotify and whatever else.

      You're not a lost sale; you're a successful sale.

    5. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      The recording industry "studies" keep making this same "lost sale" fallacy over and over. People will often find alternatives or have no music track if you start charging such that you cannot convert usage to lost revenue 1-for-1.

      There's plenty of free or at least royalty-free stuff. I post my own music for free even. (I don't claim it to be good, only to be free).

      The fact they keep making this same fallacy despite pundits pointing out the error means they are either incompetent or bribed. I suspect the latter.

    6. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no longer anything respectable about a collection of CD and audio cassettes. (But really, just one CD?)
      This goes doubly for records and eight-tracks are right out.

    7. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I'd re-title the article, "Changes to government-granted monopoly rules could earn music industry $16.5 billion instead of a mere $15.5 billion."

      For a bunch of people who 100% depend on the government to supply them with a living they sure do get uppity.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Musicians rarely make money from album sales, their end comes from touring.

      More people enjoying their music, paid for or otherwise, means more money on their concert tours

    9. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 1
      The argument wasn't "The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song on youtube." It was: The youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song.

      The point being argued was:

      Someone watching a youtube video does not equate to a lost "sale" from a streaming service.

      Note that I never argued against that. However, now that I'm being asked, by way of your additional argument, to examine it more closely...

      Since I do subscribe to streaming services where I would have listened to [hypothetical song], for which the label would have been paid, my listening to [hypothetical song] on YouTube is, in fact, a lost sale.

      If I weren't a paying customer, or at least willing to be one, then you would be correct, me taking my business to venues which don't pay the labels would not be a lost sale.

      Of course, this does not hold quite as true when you're considering CD sales, it only really works for streaming. If I own the CD and don't stream, the label is not getting any more money from me anyway; in that case, my choice to use a venue where the label does not get paid doesn't represent a lost sale, as the sale has already been made.

      Why does it hold true for streaming, then, if that sale has also already been made? Simple: labels collect royalties per stream, rather than per sale. When I subscribe to a streaming service, yet choose to listen elsewhere, the label does not get paid for that, whereas they would get paid if I used the streaming service I'm already paying for.

      At the end of the day, though, it really doesn't matter. Piracy could completely disappear and We could all turn over our entire paycheck every week for the right to listen to a single song, one time, and the recording industry would still cry that their profits were down.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    10. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Safe harbor just means the copyright holder has to sue the actual infringer instead of the website.
      What are they complaining about? Everyone knows the RIAA can sue uploaders for megabucks.

    11. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it doesn't but the RIAA and MPAA have been playing this ridiculous card since Napster went down.

      The incompetent notion is that individuals looking to pirate something would pay for it if that was their only option, most wouldn't unless they liked the product which they only determine after trying it.

      I wouldn't be shocked if this "study" was funded by the RIAA.

    12. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by jonwil · · Score: 1

      I listen to many many music tracks on YouTube (some are original artist uploads/official videos, some are those audio-track-plus-CD-cover-picture videos provided by some music company, some are unauthorized uploads and many are awesome covers uploaded by their creators) and I cant think of a single instance where I would have paid money to listen to that song where it not available on YouTube.

    13. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      A preference for physical media, which you can continue listening to after the store that sold it to you has closed up shop and the hard drive holding your music collection took a shit or the DRM music player used by your store of choice (admittedly a thing of the past in most cases) needs to refresh licenses, isn't respectable?

      Tell that to everyone who bought music through DRM-encumbered stores that later shut down. They're sure all wishing they'd bought physical media. Plus the fact that an uncompressed CD just sounds better; yeah, I'll keep my physical media, thanks.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    14. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a bookmark folder of a few dozen albums (and growing) on Youtube that I do not own, and as long as the links work I have no plan to buy them. I could probably count the ones put up by rights holders on one hand. My history of purchased music or subscribed streaming services is irrelevant; I would pay for them if I had to but I don't have to, and by the labels' metrics I am costing them money.

      Just because every video is not a lost sale doesn't mean they all aren't.

    15. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      exactly. If they charged Google for this "lost" revenue, Google would pass on the cost, and people wouldn't consume the content (because it would be cheaper elsewhere).

      How on earth did they calculate any losses?

    16. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      A preference for physical media, which you can continue listening to after the store that sold it to you has closed up shop and the hard drive holding your music collection took a shit or the DRM music player used by your store of choice (admittedly a thing of the past in most cases) needs to refresh licenses, isn't respectable?

      Tell that to everyone who bought music through DRM-encumbered stores that later shut down. They're sure all wishing they'd bought physical media. Plus the fact that an uncompressed CD just sounds better; yeah, I'll keep my physical media, thanks.

      I waffled over this issue for a long time. but the simple fact of the matter is that I cannot remember the last time I put a CD in my CD player and just played it. Any CDs I've bought for the last 5-6 years have gone straight to my PC, ripped to LAME -q0 -V0 MP3. And I recently decided to get a Spotify premium account, because 99% of the music I listen to is on there anyway, and I like the curated playlists and recommendations.

      So my collection of ~400 CDs is simply taking up space for no good reason. Luckily, existence of people like you with a fetish for physical media means that I can sell my currently unloved CD collection, hopefully to someone who will appreciate them more than I currently do. I'm probably keeping my signed CDs and some of the imported versions with Japan-only bonus tracks that aren't available anywhere else, for some reason.

      Also no, there is no audible difference between a CD and something like Spotify's highest quality (320kbps Ogg Vorbis). If you're hearing a difference, it's down to mastering differences, not the format. And both are significantly better than the shit-tier stuff you get from Youtube pirates.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    17. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      The argument was that the Youtube viewer would have never paid to listen to your song, full stop. You gave an argument demonstrating that you have paid to listen to those songs, and still use YouTube. The music industry wants to label you as a lost sale; the OP wants to suggest that you were never going to buy the song anyway; and you demonstrated that you are a successful sale.

      You also implied your use of YouTube was out of convenience, and likewise we can reasonably assume you purchased the songs out of convenience--I'm sure your Spotify, Amazon MP3, and CD purchases make it easier for you to listen to those songs in some contexts, while YouTube is quick and dirty in other contexts. This further suggests you're not a lost sale: I doubt Youtube is that much more convenient than just bringing up Rhythmbox, Banshee, Songbird, or whatever it is you kids use today to listen to actual owned music, or Spotify and Amazon Cloud Music for the streams; I would hazard the hypothesis that you wouldn't pay the extra to buy the song on YouTube when fucking around with the credit card payment gateway takes slightly longer than just pulling up an alternate music player.

      I hadn't considered the royalty-per-stream angle; most independent artists cry that the royalties are shite, and I wonder how many streams a Swedish NES Chiptune artist gets per year compared to Pink Floyd. I really must restore my brain after the last six months of drugs and insomnia; psychiatric care is rough, and I'm back on a stable-enough basis that I'm well-past-due to take responsibility for how my mind functions now.

    18. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Well, this grown-ass-man listens to more Pink Floyd; the kids you allude to, however, probably listen to more of the Swedish NES Chiptune "artist". It's a curve that's gonna trend away from Floyd as time goes on.

      Also, I'm not saying their argument is correct; I'm merely pointing out the logic by which they believe it to be so.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    19. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      And I recently decided to get a Spotify premium account, because 99% of the music I listen to is on there anyway, and I like the curated playlists and recommendations.

      Yes, while Spotify is still around, that's great. I use them, and I fill gaps in their collection with Napster (the streaming service, not the defunct filesharing service). I also buy a few CDs every year so I don't lose the songs I really enjoy when streaming services start going belly up. It's also useful to be able to load tracks onto an iPod Classic and not care about cell coverage when driving cross country; something no streaming service lets you do. Napster comes the closest, allowing you to download tracks to your phone, but it still wants to get online and validate licenses before playing them, which is a no go on a lot of rural roads and highways, regardless of carrier.

      For most listening situations, I'll even agree with you regarding quality. I certainly can't tell the difference in my car, or through shitty earbuds. Even in my living room, it's a wash once you take MP3 above 240kbps. However, in my office, which doubles as a studio, where I have a custom designed (and for under $300, at that) amp and speaker system and the room is tuned (it's a studio, after all), there is a very clear difference between a raw CD, FLAC, DSD and any lossy encoding, even at the highest settings. When you know where to buy SACD media, DSD really shines on a proper setup in a proper room. Since it's the room I spend 8+ hours of my day in (on top of doubling as a studio), this matters.

      That's not all physical media brings to the table, though; I've also recently started building a collection of vinyl. Not because I think it sounds better; that's debatable until the cows come home, grow old, die, and decompose; but because there's just something about putting that needle down on the platter that really speaks to me. It was also an interesting project, putting together a custom phono setup for under $200 (which included modifying a cheaper turntable) that rivals setups costing several thousand. But, again, vinyl isn't about sound quality for me, as you really lose any benefit that may (or may not) have existed in the first place the first time you look at it wrong; but it does give me a feeling I just can't get from an MP3.

      It may be that I have 20/5 vision that let me see individual subpixels on a 534 DPI OLED display at 18" (roughly the distance at which I naturally hold my phone), and ears to match those capabilities auditorily, but I'm one of those guys who can pick out the source material in A/B testing of both audio and video. Incidentally, my nose is hyper-sensitive as well; for example, I can smell a radiator leak from a car driving by, a couple dozen feet away, that a trained mechanic won't pick up on until he's got his nose an inch from the hairline crack that hasn't properly started leaking yet. You can say I'm imagining it, but go ahead and tell that to my ex and her family mechanic.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    20. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, aren't you the cat's pajamas. Do you have an adamantium-enhanced skeletal system as well?

    21. Re:Another Bullshit Study From the Music Industry by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      For most listening situations, I'll even agree with you regarding quality. I certainly can't tell the difference in my car, or through shitty earbuds. Even in my living room, it's a wash once you take MP3 above 240kbps.

      I don't know - MP3s really do have trouble with certain types of music. I went to 320 and could still tell, even in my car. However, with most of the garbage coming out today, 128 is probably fine. You can't really improve the source. ;)

      However, in my office, which doubles as a studio, where I have a custom designed (and for under $300, at that) amp and speaker system and the room is tuned (it's a studio, after all), there is a very clear difference between a raw CD, FLAC, DSD and any lossy encoding, even at the highest settings. When you know where to buy SACD media, DSD really shines on a proper setup in a proper room. Since it's the room I spend 8+ hours of my day in (on top of doubling as a studio), this matters.

      the 5.1 mixes are pretty interesting, I'm waiting on some artists to get on the Dolby Atmos wagon. Now that should truly be interesting, and certainly doesn't lend itself to an MP3.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
  6. They can fuck right off by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just because you didn't make money doesn't mean it cost you anything.

  7. I posit that by BronsCon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be 0. This would be so because YouTube would simply not allow copyright music on its service.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    1. Re:I posit that by swillden · · Score: 1

      If YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be 0. This would be so because YouTube would simply not allow copyright music on its service.

      But YouTube actually does pay the industry. Most of the time, if you post a copyrighted song the copyright owner doesn't bother filing a DMCA takedown request, YouTube just informs you that your video contains copyrighted material and that instead of paying you for any ad revenue from views, YouTube pays the copyright holder. I've made a few videos for weddings and funerals, set to music, and that's the case for all of my videos. I don't care. I didn't make them to make money but to honor the people in them, and being able to use the subjects' favorite music and allow the copyright holder to get paid for that use is perfectly acceptable to me.

      Are the rates YouTube pays "market rates"? Beats me. They're the rates that the copyright holders agreed to, which makes them "market rates" by definition, doesn't it?

      It's not clear to me what the author of this paper is talking about, exactly. Is he talking about revenue lost to copyright holders tho haven't bothered to register their material with YouTube so it can be automatically identified and paid for? Is he talking about revenue lost to copyright holders because YouTube's systems fail to identify their material? The most likely thing, based on the summary, (no, I did not RTFA), is that he believes that if YouTube had to pre-vet content to avoid being sued for inadvertently hosting infringing material, then YouTube would simply not exist and that record labels would instead be able to run their own services and charge whatever they wanted.

      I agree that if you allow the record labels complete control, they can find more ways to extract revenue. I don't agree that that's a good thing.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:I posit that by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      But YouTube actually does pay the industry.

      I never said they didn't. The complaint in TFS is that they aren't paying market rate; in fact, about 60% of what you quoted was copied and pasted from TFS. My stipulation was not that YouTube doesn't pay but, rather, if they were forced to pay "market rates" they would simply not allow copyright music any longer and, rather than pay something below market, they'd pay nothing.

      I've made a few videos for weddings and funerals, set to music, and that's the case for all of my videos.

      It's also the case for something like 90% of my videos, as well. I'm quite familiar with the practice. My point was that, if YouTube were asked to pay more than they're willing to pay, this practice would end.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  8. Lack of Good Music Costs Them $2 Billion Per Year by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lack of Good Music Costs Them $2 Billion Per Year

  9. kindof.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is only true if the money exists to pay the rights holders, this assumes that the people would pay for the music rather than just not listen to it

  10. What matters... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Musicians make money off of touring and very little from sale of media.

    This would matter more to me if it was the artists being hurt and not some bloated corporation that has a long history of stealing from the artists and the customers.

    I still miss the days of mp3.com when artists could avoid the music industry entirely and market themselves directly to listeners

    1. Re:What matters... by oldmac31310 · · Score: 2

      Hah. Sure. Mp3.com owes me $103.00. What is the point in making sales when you don't get paid?

      --
      http://www.acetonestudio.com
    2. Re:What matters... by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      I still miss the days of mp3.com when artists could avoid the music industry entirely and market themselves directly to listeners

      Sorry, just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding. Are you saying that since that one particular company isn't around anymore, artists can no longer market themselves directly to listeners? (Or that it's maybe not as easy or convenient as it was back then?)

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    3. Re:What matters... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then talk to the people at vivendi that sued Mp3 out of existence for allowing people to upload music and store it on folders.

    4. Re:What matters... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mp3 was pretty revolutionary in its time
      It was sued out of existence because it was possible to upload music that you owned to folders online.
      This was construed as supporting piracy and vivendi not only took ownership of Mp3, but plowed salt into the ground for any other provider that would consider the same business model (subverting record companies)
      Maybe bandcamp, soundcloud or youtube have filled in the same niche, but the record companies are obviously working to subvert them as well

  11. Math? by fishscene · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Has anyone done any Math/economic modeling of how much the music industry is worth if everyone payed them "properly"? By my terrible estimates, it's worth more than the combined GDP of the entire world.

    1. Re:Math? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By my terrible estimates, it's worth more than the combined GDP of the entire world.

      EXACTLY! They are gods on this earth! You should be busting your ass for Them, day and night in the paintbrush mines, praising and worshiping Them, for allowing you to even exist in the same universe as Them! The mere notion that you would even think otherwise, is nothing short of pure blasphemy, an affront to Their holy and just reign.

      Just what kind of wickedness are you, demon?

  12. And sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they also say piracy costed them infinity+1 dollars.

    Do your part. Go pirate some music today.

  13. On the other hand... by NormalVisual · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...I wonder how many billions of dollars excessive copyright terms have cost the U.S. citizenry directly. Half the Beatles are dead, for crying out loud, and it's been almost 50 years since their last album was released. There's no way copyright can encourage them to record another album.

    --
    Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
    1. Re:On the other hand... by sims+2 · · Score: 1

      I'm rather annoyed at being treated like a criminal for paying for things. If you need me i'm going to be watching "pirated" movies on this highly illegal service i've been paying for for the last few years called netflix.

      Netflix is going to have to start their own VPN service in a few years if current trends continue.

      --
      Minimum threshold fixed. Thanks!
    2. Re:On the other hand... by Ghostworks · · Score: 2

      They actually did press "The Beatles: the Copyright extension album".

      https://www.theguardian.com/mu...

      Basically, if they didn't publish the couldn't claim the extended copyright, so they published rather than let them become free.

      There is something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep some popular collections alive and well-tended, rather than rotting away in a cellar. (There is also something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep less popular collections buried and rotting away in a cellar.)

    3. Re:On the other hand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The good half are still alive. Nobody misses a wife beater. Not sure what the other one ever did in the band either. YMMV

    4. Re:On the other hand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep some popular collections alive and well-tended, rather than rotting away in a cellar.

      Yes, there is, but I'm not sure this is a very good example of that:

      four extra versions of She Loves You, five A Taste of Honeys, three outtakes of There's a Place and two demos of songs given to other artists.

    5. Re:On the other hand... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I think the point is to encourage other artists to record so they will make the money the Beatles are now making. Of course the Beatles are a bad example since they don't own the copyright on most of their songs.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:On the other hand... by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      Universal Media Groups stupid-ass annoying and clearly audible watermarks on streaming services are another good example.

      They're deliberately supplying an inferior product to paying customers, but the people who torrent a CD rip get the untainted sound quality. It's absolutely ridiculous.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  14. Who are these guys? by jandrese · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have never heard of the Phoenix Center for Advanced Legal & Economic Policy Studies so I went to the their website. Unfortunately I can't find anything talking about their funding sources. However, they do have a prominent endorsement on their homepage from Ajit Pai, which is a substantial red flag.

    Propublica sadly only has their funding lumped together as "contributions", which doesn't help.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
    1. Re:Who are these guys? by jandrese · · Score: 4, Informative
      Update: I found the closest thing to a mission statement I could find buried in a wall of text on page 17 of their 2013 tax return.

      Although the Phoenix Center does not meet the safe harbor test for public support (33-1/3%) in 2013, it believes that the following facts and circumstances support the organization's continuance as a public charity. The Phoenix Center has grown and developed since its inception to become a voice for consumer welfare by promoting free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty.

      In other words, its exacta what everyone thinks. This is yet another one of those corporate mouthpiece "think tanks" that release studies to push a corporate agenda.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    2. Re:Who are these guys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      501(c)(3); you should be able to review their annual filing requirements if you really want know to know who they are and where they get their money.

    3. Re:Who are these guys? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Update: I found the closest thing to a mission statement I could find buried in a wall of text on page 17 of their 2013 tax return.

      Although the Phoenix Center does not meet the safe harbor test for public support (33-1/3%) in 2013, it believes that the following facts and circumstances support the organization's continuance as a public charity. The Phoenix Center has grown and developed since its inception to become a voice for consumer welfare by promoting free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty.

      In other words, its exacta what everyone thinks. This is yet another one of those corporate mouthpiece "think tanks" that release studies to push a corporate agenda.

      I think you're right about that, but that's not what the text says. Unless you think that only corporations want "free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty". Corporations typically want none of those things. They like markets that benefit them at the expense of their competitors, not free markets, and they'd love to have no competition. They tend not to care much about individual freedom and liberty, except to the degree that their directors feel personally strong about such issues.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    4. Re:Who are these guys? by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      Unless you think that only corporations want "free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty". Corporations typically want none of those things.

      It's the corporate doubletalk that's confusing the issue.

      1. ISPs selling your browsing history is the free market in action. Because they are neither a natural monopoly nor anti-competitive.

      2. ISPs disclosing how much they've spent on infrastructure and how much their "partners" paid for your information is burdensome, anti-competitive, anti-job, and blatant government overreach.

      Corporations always sell their legislative wishlists as some kind of gift to the public. So, yes, I would expect a corporate mouthpiece to squawk about markets, competition, and freedom because that's their normal camouflage these days.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    5. Re:Who are these guys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is one of those pointless studies that boils down to, "If we could make company X pay Z% more royalties per track to company Y, then company Y could make less than Z% more money" Shouldn't have needed more than one accountant to figure that out, much less 3 economists.

      Note to future study sponsoring groups: "Phoenix Centre For Advanced Legal And Economic Public Policy Studies" wastes your money.

      Front page of their website contains a quote:
      The Phoenix Center "offer[s] policymakers rigorous economic analysis and legal acumen second to none." -- FCC Chairman Ajit Pai
      OpEd section of the site includes praise paper "Ajit Pai Can Restore Regulatory Humility to the FCC".

      About us section:
      "... research unencumbered by political hyperbole, partisanship and ideological agendas"

      Dunno about you but I'm thinking the "hyperbole, partisanship and ideological agendas" of this conservative think tank are fairly obvious.

    6. Re:Who are these guys? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Unless you think that only corporations want "free markets, competition, and individual freedom and liberty". Corporations typically want none of those things.

      It's the corporate doubletalk that's confusing the issue.

      You're assuming it's doublespeak, and so did jandrese, and I strongly suspect that you're both right, but it is an assumption. There's nothing in the text to make it clear.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    7. Re:Who are these guys? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      that release studies to push a corporate agenda.

      Their corporate agenda showed problems with the DMCA. I say we should get behind them and push to fully abolish the law.

    8. Re:Who are these guys? by jandrese · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the sort of phrase a business would use to justify their wildly noncompetitive and unethical behavior. It's practically a textbook example.

      Translation: Remove government oversight and public programs to increase corporate power.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    9. Re:Who are these guys? by swillden · · Score: 1

      That's exactly the sort of phrase a business would use to justify their wildly noncompetitive and unethical behavior. It's practically a textbook example.

      Doesn't change the fact that it's only your assumption that it should be read that way. There's no evidence. Also, this (allegedly) isn't a business.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  15. The title of the study says it all by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    by using the loaded word "entitled". For some reason that's a dirty word in America. We don't feel we're entitled to anything 'round here.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  16. This study is garbage! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The entire thing is based on a six-year-old news article that estimates that 40% of Youtube's views are for music.

    Then they follow that up with a bunch of garbage economics that purports to show that Youtube pays less money per song than streaming sites like Pandora because not all of those 40% of views pay royalties, and then conclude that making Youtube pay more money for the songs it does pay royalties for will make up the difference.

  17. Sod off, music industry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm happy listening to royalty-free music from the last depression: RADIO DISMUKE (http://radiodismuke.com/)

  18. The key phrase...industry market rates by BenFranske · · Score: 1

    I think the key phrase is:

    It showed that if YouTube were to pay the recorded music industry market rates, similar to what other streaming services pay, its economic contributions to the sector would be significantly bigger.

    This is the flaw in the study. The music industry has basically strongarmed and set these rates so that streaming services live on the edge of death and can be killed off at any time. If YouTube (and streaming services) paid what radio stations pay (nothing!) it would be a different story. We won't even get into payola and how radio stations were sometimes paid by the music companies to play their songs...

    1. Re:The key phrase...industry market rates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If YouTube (and streaming services) paid what radio stations pay (nothing!)

      On the contrary, I work in radio and our 4 stations pay a buttload to ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC. It's based on revenue not on the amount of songs played so we pay even on our sports talk station that never plays any songs. We're in a small market and pay 5-6k a month. Multiply that by how many radio stations there are (~10,000) and you can only imagine how much these leaches are making.

      Then talk to the artists and see how much they end up with.....

      If you're interested check this out Radio Music License Committee

    2. Re:The key phrase...industry market rates by BenFranske · · Score: 2

      Mea culpa, you're correct that radio stations do pay licensing fees, however when converted to a per song play basis it seems to be remarkably less than what Internet companies are paying.

    3. Re:The key phrase...industry market rates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're absolutely correct. We looked into streaming our stations and the music fees alone made it non-profitable.

      I had a lot of misconceptions about the radio business before I started working here. I used to think the stations get music for free and I also thought payola was still going on. It may be, but it's been illegal for decades and I doubt it is very common.

  19. So? by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    You know what, while large corporations can bring people straight in from other countries (illegally) where things cost less and undermine my value in the market, excuse me if I don't cry any tears about another part of the market being undermined for some large corporation.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  20. The fundamental issue that's unpopularto dicuss... by Ghostworks · · Score: 1

    ... Is that none of care how much the music industry loses in royalties, because they already manage to squeeze us for too damn much.

    You could argue YouTube derives a good amount of its value from hosting content copyrighted by other people -- because at the end of the day, that's what people want to see, not other people's home movies. However, you also have to realize all of that "value" is derived from the fact that it's the only place to find things that people already think should be free by now.

  21. This is not about you. This is about Google. by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 1, Informative

    Wow, you people lining up to identify with Google's interests are totally missing the point. Google is not your friend. This study is about Google paying royalties. Not you.

    --
    Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
    1. Re:This is not about you. This is about Google. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the battle of Google vs RIAA, I will side with Google. I will side with any entity vs RIAA for that matter.

    2. Re:This is not about you. This is about Google. by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      Wow, you people lining up to identify with Google's interests are totally missing the point.

      Google's interests happen to align with the vast majority of the online world's interests in this issue. I think that you are the one missing the point. This goes far beyond the mere, insignificant issue of how much Google should pay in royalties, or even whether Google should pay royalties at all. This is the RIAA positioning itself as the gatekeeper of shared culture, much like how Disney is positioning itself as the gatekeeper of the public domain, via absurd paid-for studies.

    3. Re:This is not about you. This is about Google. by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 1

      You are failing to recognize Google's present position of power.

      --
      Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
    4. Re:This is not about you. This is about Google. by uCallHimDrJ0NES · · Score: 1

      In the battle of Google vs RIAA, I will side with Google. I will side with any entity vs RIAA for that matter.

      You have informed the world how to exploit you, then.

      --
      Cloudiot: A person who does not see offsite storage as a way to lose control over access to his or her own data.
  22. I wonder how much is lost due to bad bands? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder how much cash the US industry loses for people not bothering to deal with the bands they sign, and signing the same lukewarm, heavily made up, autotuned actors that are fungible for the most part.

    I would say that if the US labels signed more Trent Reznors and fewer Justin Biebers, that one billion would come back pretty quickly. Stop making bands (with the members picked and the music already wirtten), and start signing new stuff.

  23. Is that all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only that much?!? That's nothing compared to what the music industry costs the public.

    The music industry never should have allowed the public to find out they are getting such an incredibly lucrative deal from copyright law. This amazingly low number that they have accidentally leaked, is only going to persuade the public that existing safe harbor does not go nearly far enough.

    So.. how do we expand safe harbor so that it's less unfairly biased toward the music industry? Let's get this ball rolling and present our ideas to our congresspeople. Are takedown notices too easy and safe? I know there are lots of complaints about automated notices being fraudulent...

  24. i have not bought any music in years by FudRucker · · Score: 2

    because my values changed, i guess paying utility bills, buying food, clothing, and car insurance is more important, and besides that i rather just listen to the radio because it also includes local news and weather, and i rather search youtube for amateurs that upload their music because they do it as a labor of love not because of any profit motive, to hell with the music industry, the music industry is dying because that is exactly what it is "A for-profit industry" and when it comes to spending money music is not high on the list of most people's priorities, you know, stuff like food, rent, clothes, insurance, etc...

    --
    Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
  25. I spent money on music.... thanks YouTube. by jef41305739 · · Score: 1

    If YouTube didn't have music listed, I wouldn't of found the last 3 albums I just purchased. So I would argue that the "safe harbor" rule helps with sales because how else would if I find out about 1000 Mods or Nightstalker?

  26. Fuck the Music Industry! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fuck the Music Industry!

    Dismantle the damn music industry, they don't pay their artists, fuck them!

  27. copyright no longer serves its purpose by uncoveror · · Score: 2

    Article I, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution, known as the Copyright Clause, empowers the United States Congress: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. Pop music and Hollywood movies aren't science and the useful arts. They are only frivolous entertainment. Also, "limited times" meant 14 years, renewable once for 28 in the original 1790 copyright law. Now, with extensions passed every 20 years to keep Steamboat Willie out of the public domain, it is virtually perpetual. This locking up ideas asp property is no less a form of censorship than trying to suppress them, and does not promote progress at all.

    --
    The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
  28. Don't forget the trillions in lost royalties by GeekWithAKnife · · Score: 1


    If anyone that ever downloaded an MP3 without owning the original worked forked over the much praised reasonable fine of $750,00 then the music industry wouldn't be dying for decades now.

    I'm beginning to think the music business is some sort of reanimating undead. It seems to be in a constant state of loss and on its last leg...if you believe some of these studios...

    The industry lost millions because of radio. Lost millions because of bootlegs. Lost millions because of casette recorders, millions from CD burners, millions from MP3s and I guess more millions from music streaming sites and YouTube.
    Oh! my bad, let's not forget "piracy" that "makes music available" and costs them more millions.

    It always makes me wonder if there is so much loss making why does anyone bother to get into the music business and how can they stay in that industry for so many years and become stinking rich.

    They keep looking at our pockets counting how much of that money is theirs because somehow they found a way we didn't buy all their shit...conveniently forgetting we paid double, triple and more with TV licences, cable/satellite subscriptions, radio tax if you pay seperately, CDs or records and paid for streaming services...what about our lost discounts?! -do I get a discount if I purchase the right to listen to the same shit on two different mediums?? $750,000 per instance please. Reasonable, right?
    (How many songs on radio or TV etc could you have listened to for free on services you pay for while you read?)

    Ideally they'd like us to pay on a per listen basis. You know, like when you go see an artist perform (as in see them work) and you pay for that -Right? cause the artist actually works for it. Only fair they get paid.
    Hoever it seems clear that labels and studios want to record the work and still charge you the same rate as a performance, as if someone actually worked for it. After all, we're stupid, we don;t know the difference as we can hear the same...and there's a lot of work that goes into mastering and making CD copies...and artists are starving.

    Of course they won't reduce prices, allow you to own high quality lossless copies or pay artists fairly; instead they all find all those ways they're theoretically losing money because of faux pas reasons....my heart aches for those poor poor souls.

    --
    A 'singular oddity' is an event that cannot be explained and only happens when you are alone.
  29. It is time to derail this propaganda train. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TL/DR;
    Safe harbor is not costing the industry $1B. It is promoting product.

    LONG VERSION;
    Reminds me of something I would around a medical complex some time ago. Drug reps on a Wednesday afternoon; w/ large fiberglass lunch trays stacked with brown baggies. One big time Rep would often have a tray worth $110K, w/ 4 or more in the back of his car. So logically one could argue he cost the drug industry 500K a day in lost sales. The reality is promotion, promotion, promotion.

  30. Biased? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To be honest I don't feel like plowing through another "the record industry is losing billions to streamers!" report. Historically these reports start form a faulty assumption though, so I'm asking does this report address the issue of the feedback process?

    In other words when they did the math did they assume that every play or every download that is currently happening would exist in the hypothetical world where the prices were raised?

    With the attacks on P2P sharing the record industry always assumed every download was a lost sale and did the math accordingly, so 1 song download =$1-2. This is faulty logic as the majority of the down-loaders would never have purchased the song at the going rate. So it was more like 0.05 * 1 download = one lost sale = $0.1-0.2 per download...

    If they use the former logic their entire thesis is garbage as the initial premise and subsequent model are invalid.

  31. And how much money.... by oh_my_080980980 · · Score: 1

    ...would they make if YouTube did not allow the music to be posted in the first place *gasp*....I guess the studies authors NEVER considered that. Just saw millions of hits and said "X number of dollars time millions of hits equals big money"

  32. A more instersting study. by fish_in_the_c · · Score: 1

    What would be a more interesting study would be to find out how far the attitudes of the American people are from what the current law requires.
    How may people are actually aware of what the law does and does not allow and when made aware of what it doesn't allow consider the law to be fair.
    As a culture we really need to have a discussion about what is 'good' copyright law and what is not.
    Perhaps the laws have outlived their usefulness in the digital age and need to be replaced by something more concrete that doesn't favor large corporations but still provides an income stream that encourages the creation and disseminations of art? I believe the library of congress has one copy of every book, why not some registry like that for all digital art and require all streams of that art to reference back to and give royalties to the artist who registered the art?
    There could also be some kind of consistent algorithm developed to distributed those royalties. However there should be good consideration given to an easy way to allow people to create a register derivative works, for some 'reasonable' fee. Ideally the majority of Americans would get to define what 'reasonable' meant.

    --
    âoeTolerance applies only to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies only to truth, but never to persons.
  33. Netflix for music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The music industry must be watching what Netflix is doing to movies, and want to be disrupted in the same way.

    This is hand-waving. The sentence "if everyone who downloaded free music paid for it" starts with if, and that doesn't work in practice. The industry likes to say "we are being robbed" but it is from not making the max they might ever ever make in a best case, outside of physics.

    Reality is less than that, and the assumption precludes profit ... the stuff that Netflix is making and Hollywood is losing.

  34. Need better cellars by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    There is something to be said for the way copyright manages to keep some popular collections alive and well-tended, rather than rotting away in a cellar.

    What we need to do, is invent a new storage system which is better than cellars, combined with some kind of means whereby the public can access it.

    I wonder if the electronics nerds could come up with something. I remember watching a Woody Allen movie called "Take the Money and Run" where Woody's character mentioned his aunt had some kind of special machine. Does anyone know if that was just science fiction, or was it based on a real thing?

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    1. Re:Need better cellars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What copyright should do is ensure that:
      1) Artists are motivated to create
      2) Rightsholders are motivated to preserve.

      The current system does neither effectively.

  35. And YouTube "evades", is "exploiting" the DMCA by alispguru · · Score: 1

    YouTube evades paying market rates for the use of copyrighted content by exploiting the Digital Millennium Copyright Act's "safe harbor" provisions...

    Neutral phrasing, anybody?

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  36. The logic, as I understand it by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Snickers candy bars are priced at $1, sold 20 million units last year.

    If we'd priced them at $5 each, we'd have made $100 million, meaning we lost $80 million underpricing Snickers!

    Anyone see the faulty logic there?

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:The logic, as I understand it by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Idiot. Snickers bars are worth at least $10 each.

    2. Re:The logic, as I understand it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes I see it... you should have priced them at $1,000,000 each then you could have made trillions.
      -RIAA

  37. Copyright ratchet and racket... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Somebody should look at all the lobbied for changes to copyright law in favour of rights holders (e.g. Mickey Mouse extensions). They should calculate how much revenue has been increased by these laws, and explain that that is how much the taxpayer has lost due to the law changes. The value will be in the trillions.

  38. "distortions caused by the safe harbor provisions" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What -- the -- fscking -- eff ?!?!? "Distortions caused by the safe harbor provisions"? The purpose of the safe harbor provisions is to let utility providers provide a utility without the market being distorted by secondary liability. Lots of businesses and utilities are done in that manner and are licensed to operate under conditions limiting their liability in return for certain mandatory checks (like for age, ID, license), exactly so that business does not get distorted by having to operate under uncontrollable threats and risks.

    The safe harbor provisions allow legal operation in a conscientious and controlled manner without constant threat by fear, uncertainty, and doubt. That is not "distortion" unless the "undistorted" model is based on the concept of Original Sin where everybody is guilty and only by grace of the content industry (preferably bought by hefty bribes) might they be saved from going to prison.

    This is not how a free society operates. A free society needs clear rules for conducting business within clearly defined regions of expertise. That is not "distortion". Unless, of course, you are of the opinion that the U.S. is ruled dictatorially by media companies considering themselves the law.

  39. Who paid for the study? by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1
    From the home page of the Phoenix Center For Advanced Legal And Economic Public Policy Studies ( http://www.phoenix-center.org/ )

    The Phoenix Center offer[s] policymakers rigorous economic analysis and legal acumen second to none. --- FCC Chairman Ajit Pai

    OK, now I have a better idea of where this research center is coming from...

    1. Re:Who paid for the study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From http://www.teletruth.org/FTCspeakercorporateties.htm
      “Spiwak said the Phoenix Center is funded by ‘the old AT&T, the new AT&T, wireless companies, software providers’ and other Bell competitors.” [Technology Daily, 7/26/06]
      “In a telephone interview last week, Lawrence Spiwak, president of the Phoenix Center, acknowledged receiving funding from AT&T and Verizon Communications.” [Television Week, “Cable Group: Telcos Paying for Support,” 2/27/06]

  40. pdf is available by QuietLagoon · · Score: 1
    Here: http://www.phoenix-center.org/...

    .
    The research seems to take the approach of posing a hypothesis about how the music industry is losing money due to youtube, and then asking RIAA and a record company executive about the hypothesis. Lo and behold, they agree with the hypothesis.

    imo, this looks like a for-purchase hit piece against youtube, probably because the RIAA is trying to justify its existence.

  41. But this dont show how it is their own fault. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Like 30 year old music like Floyds Wall 40.00 fucking dollars.
    Suck my nuts you made the CD so fucking cheap if you breath on it it would scratch.

    I hoe all you mother fuckers die and the music there is you make you fucking self.

    My tape deck still records radio.

  42. Pocket change by slazzy · · Score: 1

    1 Billion is pocket change compared to the industries that are possible because of the DMCA. We couldn't have a Slashdot, Facebook, YouTube or any real way for users to post content without the DMCA. In reality though, music sales are probably higher because of promotion through social media than they would be otherwise.

    --
    Website Just Down For Me? Find out
  43. Who cares. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they were smart they would guilt-trip everyone by inferring that they would do something good with that money (instead of putting it in RIAA exec's pockets) by also studying the effects of what that money would do for inner-city children if used to buy them books, or something.

    Alas, all they do is say, "look how much richer we could be!"

  44. Same mistake the copyright industry always makes by Solandri · · Score: 1

    Economics 101. Market rate is the intersection of the supply and demand curve. Or in this case since the supply is infinite and the price is set by the copyright holder, the intersection of the demand curve with the set price.

    As you lower the price, the demand goes up. So you can't simply do what the copyright industry always does - take the demand at a price of zero, multiply it by how much you'd like to be paid, and claim that as losses. Otherwise I could just claim plays of my song are worth $1 million each, and because it's been viewed 100,000 times on YouTube without my authorization, I've "lost" $100 billion.

    You need to first figure out the shape of the demand curve, then project along it to account for decreased demand as you increase the price, up until you hit the price you're selling at. That'll tell you how much you're really losing. Which in the case of YouTube I suspect is a lot less than the free publicity they get from having their work on YouTube as the background music on someone's home video before YouTube mutes it.

  45. Two Birds with One Stream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like to stream PMVs (pr0n music videos). That way I am screwing the labels and pr0n industry. Win win.

  46. Orly? by theCzechGuy · · Score: 1

    So a lobbyist "think tank" found out that our liberties cost them money (which they never had). That is truly unexpected and shocking.

  47. Two Things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Two Comments:

    1). The more you charge for something the less demand there is for that something, unless you have inelastic demand. Music is a dictionary-worthy example of an elastic demand item, so charging more definitely reduces consumption;

    2). I thought the DMCA was brought in by, lobbied for and fervently supported by the entertainment industry? So now they are complaining that the DMCA doesn't bring in enough coin?

  48. The bigger question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do we have a system whereby if someone sings a sing/writes something, they're entitled to money for it for the rest of their lives +75 years? If I build a chair and sell it, I don't get money every time someone puts their ass on it. Why doe we treat "artists" so special?

    1. Re: The bigger question... by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Because Disney.

  49. Why does this study smell fishy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read through the stud and a lot of it is base on guessing than what the actual value is

    I am seeing approximate, estimate, according to what public information is available, using data from different year to make extrapolation(pick 2 different years mix the data to give you the highest shock value), mixing in with global currency (If we pay lower rate in foreign countries then using percentage of the calculation for US won't work)

    Lastly...."Much of the data available to us is provided by RIAA reports and data releases". SERIOUSLY?!?!?!? Geee I wonder what your independent finding would be

  50. NEWS! According to the Music Industry by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    Safe Harbor diverted 1 Billion to the local economies like small family owned businesses from large corporations that are able to use tax loopholes to pay less cooperate taxes. Who knew fair digital dealing would make the local economy grow.

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  51. The Ultimate Piracy Machine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The researchers forgot to include The Kopimashin in their turd/study...

  52. Bullshit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "My funded study says im harmed"

    Break up the *AA on RICO. Now.

  53. www.takethereinsfilm.com by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A teen girl with depressive disorder is left to the mercy of her mental illness Official movie released by truly talented film director Emma Barrett http://butterfly-in-a-tunnel.tumblr.com
    http://www.takethereinsfilm.com

  54. Difficulty Level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A. How had is it to lie? B. If you whine about losing that amount of money (for doing nothing) how much do you really make?? C. If you make that much, shut up!

  55. Re:Same mistake the copyright industry always make by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with what I said. I mean, none of it was wrong, per se, but it really had nothing to do with the post you were replying to.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  56. Send me ur dolla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please Halp you pal out, I want to BuY with my money some music (the good ard core shit eh), all I have is lots and lots of time and my skimpy bikini.
    is my lucky day?

    my ADD DRESS is one white silk gown with 2 + 2 = 4

  57. I can get behind this! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Quick everyone, call your members of congress. Tell them an industry funded study showed that the DMCA is costing the studios money and should be abolished!

  58. Air is vibrating by easyTree · · Score: 1

    Give us cash

  59. For lawyers, by lawyers by KitFox · · Score: 1

    Interesting situation. Actually I write and I have rarely done some video content, and also assisted some video content producers.

    On the lines of the fourth group, it's an "if things are done right" situation still. In the situation you described, there is no safe harbor involved. If such a thing were posted on YouTube, for example, and they were taking payment via PayPal, YouTube is not the proper target. Rather, file suit and discovery against the entity that is directly accepting/charging money for the material. It's not a trivial matter. The material needs to be registered with the copyright office and such, which for some reason, even a lot of prolific smaller creators rarely do. Yes, there are things that can throw a wrench in the plans (out of country thieves), but historically I've had compatriots that were successfully making a living off nothing but lawsuit revenue from people who stole their otherwise-free work to sell.

    I'm not certain what causes discrepancies in YouTube experiences. Really, we can only give anecdotal information. What we claim happened to us, or to somebody we know. So if we take it on good faith...

    In general, a properly-filed DMCA takedown on YouTube will "officially" result in a removal of the infringing content within 72 business hours. In my experience, a perfectly-formatted DMCA takedown that successfully goes through the automated system will result in a removal within about 36 business hours and often within five. From personal experience (and again, anecdotal, so you'll just have to trust me or not as you see fit), the vast majority - or possibly all - of people I've spoken to who have not had success with takedowns encounter problems because they don't do it right. Mind you I don't believe that something made "By lawyers, for lawyers" is exactly easy to do right anyway. If I polled ten random people and said "Follow these directions and create a takedown notice", I'd expect zero of the resulting notices to be fully correct. The takedown has a very specific format, headers should be included, and information should be precise and verifiable. If a human needs to go into it to figure out the data, it slows stuff down.

    If you can qualify for Content ID, that's generally the best. That system is automated and takes things down proactively, or allows you to monetize or fully-remove things that it discovers.

    In general though, I've given up on giving advice. There's upsides and downsides to all the things and they are decidedly complicated. For a lot of people, the cost of registering pieces can exceed the revenue for example, but that registration can be necessary for certain actions.

    For your situation specifically, I'd suggest looking at content type (Exclusive rights or no? Registered if so? Is it cost effective to do so? - Any "no"s? Then it might be an issue) and the filing process (Ducks. Every quacker in a row precisely. Zero quack-stacks.) because if filed "properly", no human ever looks at it and it's 100% automated, so you can't get a rep phoning it in. Start at this page on protecting your copyright on YouTube and remember that the initial learning is the hard part.

    Aside from personal experiences and advice and such, really the main article seems to be more pointing to the fact that the big labels are trying to capitalize on experiences like yours to drum up support despite not really being on your side at all. They want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. For example, if YouTube lost Safe Harbor, chances are pretty high that you would never be able to put videos there. Nor would most of anybody else. YouTube would likely cease to exist, as would all of the other video sharing sites, because the moment somebody posts something that somebody decides is infringing, YouTube/Google get sued over it. It's not worth the risk, so, no more YouTube at all and every place that does accept video will likely require you to pay them to post your video there because if you post something bad, they get in trouble for it.

    --

    @Whee

    1. Re:For lawyers, by lawyers by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I've no reason to doubt your description of your own experiences. As you say, we're talking anecdotally here. I'm just saying that's not always how things work out.

      I suspect in our case the issue might be that the uploader was themselves taking the material down some time after we filed the notices but before YouTube got around to acting on them, so by the time our notices got processed we just received another standard form message about the content having been removed already. That's all well and good, the content was down either way, but it doesn't stop thousands of people from watching it on this person's YouTube channel and in some cases apparently thinking they made it as well instead of finding an authorised source run by the original creators, and it doesn't stop us having to spend a lot of time filing notice after notice when stuff went back up again. YouTube's system seems to be completely incapable of dealing with this, and I really see no justification at all for a heavily automated system like theirs taking multiple days to act on a properly submitted takedown notice, but maybe this is why our experiences have differed.

      As for removing safe harbour provisions being an existential threat to sites like YouTube, I'm not sure I have a problem with that. YouTube isn't actually creating the content people enjoy there, it's just making a lot of money from hosting it, which is a secondary service that could certainly be replaced in a variety of ways, some of which might work better. If nothing else, not so many years ago, when the Internet was more decentralised, people just ran their own web sites and blogs and email and so on, using their own ISPs as hosts. Given all the advances in related areas since then I don't see why a similarly decentralised approach couldn't work today, and I suspect the online world might be a much nicer place without so much power and so little accountability being concentrated with a tiny number of hosting services like YouTube and Facebook. After all, if any normal person is hosting infringing content on their site, there is no magic law to protect them, and yet the Internet still became perhaps the greatest information sharing and communication tool in history.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  60. Alernate Title by peawormsworth · · Score: 1

    Safe Harbor SAVES the world $1 BILLION from greedy royalty payments.

    Does anybody believe the royalty collectors are paying anyone but the few superstars elected by industry insiders, while most musicians see nothing and starve?

  61. Farriers by KitFox · · Score: 1

    Lots of ways that could be speculated as to why it failed. In general, the only time it will take days is in the event that the request is not perfectly readable by the automated system. Like I said, my requests and such are acted on within hours, and if you can qualify for ContentID, it's definitely a very good idea to do so. "Why should it take hours?" Because computers are not instant. Even just putting a video up takes hours for it to be seen in all the places, days for it to get into search systems in certain ways, and so on. Get the waterfowl lined up and the system works much better for you.

    It would be nifty if more ISPs allowed that. These days, the vast majority of major ISPs in the US don't allow people to run their own servers unless it's a business account. Here, getting a business account with Comcast for example would bump a YouTuber's monthly cost to $250 up from $35.

    That's not the problem though. Safe Harbor protects -all- pipelines from -all- user content. Take it away from one and you take it away from all of them. This means that if somebody posted something on their own personal server, the rightsholders can sue the ISP for not policing that. The likelihood of ISPs allowing any kind of hosting at all becomes even more slim than it is now, and the cost of just getting a normal connection would invariably skyrocket to make up for the costs of lawsuits over people who could potentially cause problems. So it comes back to a Baby, bathwater, out you both go situation.

    A question begs here: If many people (myself included) make more money off what other people would normally perceive as their creations being stolen, what prevents that from becoming the standard? Folks are upset to a degree because the big studios and a lot of small creators want to continue running things the exact same way and have it continue to work, not adjusting to the reality. Then if the reality changes, fight that change to continue making money.

    Imagine what the world would be like if...

    Paved Roads Cost The US Farrier Industry $100,000 in Lost Revenue Per Year, Study Finds

    Analysts have released a study that shows that farriers have lost significant revenue as a result of paved roads. "All these paved roads are great, I mean, they get people places faster and don't wear down, and yeah, they make it so the horseshoes wear down faster and need to be replaced sooner. But we're finding that more people are opting to skip the horses entirely and get their transportation from these horseless carriages and automobile things. People are using the roads to play games on in quiet residential locations and these car things go zinging down them faster than horses and without pooping. We've gotten laws enacted to ensure things like any car that scares a horse must be immediately dismantled there on the side of the road, in order to help protect and encourage the use of horses. As farriers were are very interested in the transportation and work industry and we want to be certain people get to their travel destinations and have good ways to handle their fields, and these paved roads are just not helping. They protect from wagon ruts, but they also make it far too easy to drive a car down. We figure if all those new cars had to buy horseshoes like a proper horse did, we'd be making a lot more money."

    That isn't meant to be an exact same thing, so no need to pick apart differences. ;) The idea though is that instead of adapting to what is reality now, it's all working on keeping things as close to the way they were as possible. Their way is making lots of money, but they are sure they could make much more if they could just put a listening computer on every ear and extract $1.25 directly from every human's bank account if they hear more than 10 seconds of a song. Market rules no longer apply.

    Take your videos for example. Thousands of views stolen? People making money often work off hundreds of thousands or millions of views. Is the video made in such a way that it's trivial to

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    @Whee

  62. Make up numbers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People not buying music because it's crap cost the music industry a trillion dollars.

  63. Phoenix Center For Advanced Legal And Economic Pub by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do realize, of course, that this is one of the many Koch-financed "think tanks" that have no agenda other than to promote the idea that business should be able to do whatever it wants without regulation.