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Louisiana's Governor Declares State Of Emergency Over Disappearing Coastline (npr.org)

Louisiana Gov. John Bel Edwards has declared a state of emergency over the state's rapidly eroding coastline. From a report on NPR: It's an effort to bring nationwide attention to the issue and speed up the federal permitting process for coastal restoration projects. "Decades of saltwater intrusion, subsidence and rising sea levels have made the Louisiana coast the nation's most rapidly deteriorating shoreline," WWNO's Travis Lux tells our Newscast unit. "It loses the equivalent of one football field of land every hour." More than half of the state's population lives on the coast, the declaration states. It adds that the pace of erosion is getting faster: "more than 1,800 square miles of land between 1932 and 2010, including 300 square miles of marshland between 2004 and 2008 alone."

163 of 307 comments (clear)

  1. Its pretty important... by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Informative
    This area of LA....a large percentage of the US's seafood comes from here, and, a large portion of the US's domestic oil comes from the Gulf into LA, and processed here.

    Oil from all over the place is processed here.

    The people that work these jobs, live on the coast and the sealife that supports these folks and provides a good amount of seafood to the US will disappear if this coastal erosion is allowed to continue.

    This isn't just for the people of Louisiana, but for the great resources it provides the rest of the US.

    --
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    1. Re:Its pretty important... by Major+Blud · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a shame more people don't realize this, as evidenced by the multiple posts on here suggesting that people need to relocate. I've lived all over the country, but I've spent the majority of my life here in Louisiana and I'd like to stay here.

      The majority of the folks affected by this live in areas such as Plaquemines, Terrebone, and Lafourche parishes aren't rich by any means.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      They were born here; to suggest that they just pack up and move is pretty short-sighted and somewhat insulting.

      The other part of this that's frustrating is that there isn't a simple engineering solution to fix this. The levee system, while keeping urban areas from flooding, prevents sediment build-up that would restore some of the coast line. Even nutria rats are partially responsible for the eroding coast.

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    2. Re:Its pretty important... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a large percentage of the US's seafood comes from here

      So this is good news, more sea, more seafood.

      Oil sucks too. Even better news.

      Those people probably voted Trump. Let them live their news exciting Kevin Costner lifestyle.

    3. Re:Its pretty important... by freeze128 · · Score: 1

      Well, if the water is encroaching on the land, that won't affect the SEA LIFE now, will it? The ocean will still have fish in it.

      This sounds like a terrible ecological disaster, but maybe it's just an opportunity for the people who live on the coast to adapt to the situation. How about building modern FLOATING canneries and docks that can change with the environment. You can try to build a levee to hold back the water, but that will only work for so long.

    4. Re:Its pretty important... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >They were born here; to suggest that they just pack up and move is pretty short-sighted and somewhat insulting.

      The White House no longer recognizes man's effect on climate, which means there's little hope of policy directed at mitigating man's effects on climate - and still probably none even if they acknowledge the climate is changing and are merely ignoring man's role.

      Beyond that, the White House already had very little control over other nations that are or likely will significantly affect climate going forward.

      So... we're not going to fix the problem any time soon. The ocean doesn't care where you were born, it doesn't decide where its rising levels will flood land.

      To suggest people pack up and move isn't insulting, it's unfortunately common sense given the circumstances.

    5. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      which means there's little hope of policy directed at mitigating man's effects on climate

      Why? So they don't call it man-made climate change and they call it God-made climate change... either way, the water comes up and mitigation has to happen. In places with a lot of infrastructure investment, it can make sense to shore things up. In other places, as you say it makes more sense to relocate. But none of that has anything to do with what causes the climate to change.

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    6. Re:Its pretty important... by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      Why should the rest of the country pay to relocate people who chose to be near the ocean? That isn't a federal issue, that's for the state or local governments to figure out.

    7. Re:Its pretty important... by TrumpShaker · · Score: 1

      I sometimes get the idea that some parts of our government want this to happen, so they can brag or take credit for the "new" jobs created when the seafood industry, oil industry, etc. rebuild at the new coastal line. However, those industries don' t HAVE to rebuild.

    8. Re:Its pretty important... by Major+Blud · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I guess you missed the part of my post where I said that most of these folks were born in that area.

      For all those folks in Syria, why should I have to pay for them to relocate? They chose to live there!

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    9. Re:Its pretty important... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The denial of man's role is part of denying the change at all, because they're happy with the status quo. For some it's economics - they profit under the current system and alterations to reduce or fight the effects of climate change will reduce those profits, for some it's pure denial that the world could ever change.

      When the water's up around their ankles, they're scream bloody murder for levees, but that's about it. If it's somebody else up to their ankles they'll come up with some way to rationalize how it was always a risk and the climate hasn't actually changed, and how it's the fault of those who chose to live there.

    10. Re:Its pretty important... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with climate. It has nothing to do with "rising sea levels". It has everything to do with 150 years of engineering the Mississippi river. That river flows an ungodly amount of water, and that water picks stuff up and drops it off. Every geographical feature in that area was (mostly) the result of a dynamic equilibrium between sediment deposits and erosion. We've changed the river, and now the land is adjusting to a new equilibrium.

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    11. Re:Its pretty important... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I understand it, the biggest problem is NOT climate change or any other such disaster; the problem is human interference. They have channeled and canalled and levee'd and dredged the Mississippi output. The water -full of silt - that used to wash over the delta and deposit replacement dirt on the marshes and islands during heavy flow days (?) now is channeled along the river between high banks and well out to sea. The current delta is disappearing, but a few hundred years from now there might be a huge new marshy delta extending from where the river now spills into the gulf well past the current delta. Just look at Google earth to see the effect.

      You can't have it both ways, you can't stop the periodic floods that help replace the soild and also defend the soil you have against wave action.

    12. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For the same reason part of the country pays to bring water to cities in a desert, or pays to have people live in Tornado Alley.

      I'm fascinated by this notion that some have that societies should be fundamentally sociopathic... unless of course it's your own backyard, and then suddenly no amount of public funds is too much.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    13. Re:Its pretty important... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Wait, I can get paid to live in Oklahoma?

      Do tell me how!!

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    14. Re:Its pretty important... by Major+Blud · · Score: 2

      Thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread. I've followed some of your' comments on here before, and we may have have public disagreements on things, but thanks for keeping things civil.

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    15. Re:Its pretty important... by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Probably much less so than all the oil wells just off the coast.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re:Its pretty important... by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      You should reconsider your interpretation.

      I was saying they had little influence before, now they're giving up what little they had.

      That is not the same as saying, "We should give up because we can't stop the other guy from doing it anyway".

    17. Re:Its pretty important... by JudgeFurious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No. No it won't. The people who work these jobs live on the coast and since the Gulf of Mexico has a rather long coast that stretches from, well "Mexico" all the way to the tip of Florida I'm sure somebody in this world is going to work these jobs and continue to live on the coast. For that matter if the coast moves inland how is that supposed to prevent people from living near the coast (You don't actually think all of these people live on the beach do you?). Yes, the existing coastline changes. It continues to change and will keep changing. Nothing is going to stop that from happening entirely but lots of people live near the coast in Louisiana and will never be affected by this to any great degree. Seafood doesn't even factor into this. "More" ocean is supposed to translate into less seafood? Seriously?

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    18. Re:Its pretty important... by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      You do know don't you that land erosion isn't as much of a problem for the seafood as it is for us? I mean, they live in the water.

    19. Re:Its pretty important... by Luthair · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Beyond that, the White House already had very little control over other nations that are or likely will significantly affect climate going forward.

      Well, they could have supported a number of international accords aimed at reducing emissions.

    20. Re:Its pretty important... by Luthair · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why should the rest of the country pay to relocate people who chose to be near the ocean? That isn't a federal issue, that's for the state or local governments to figure out.

      Maybe because the issue has been caused in no small part by 300-million Americans driving SUVs, trucks, and burning coal. This is where the funds from a carbon tax should go.

    21. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      When the water's up around their ankles, they're scream bloody murder for levees, but that's about it. If it's somebody else up to their ankles they'll come up with some way to rationalize how it was always a risk and the climate hasn't actually changed, and how it's the fault of those who chose to live there.

      OK, but how does that have anything to do with what is causing the climate change? As you say, no one can deny that things have changed once there are people standing around ankle deep in water. At that point they can choose to help those people or not, but this has nothing to do with their feelings on anthropomorphic climate change. A libertarian or small-government conservative who believes in climate science is still going to advocate for no assistance while a liberal or social conservative who denies climate science will still advocate for assistance. While I concede that there is a strong correlation between political beliefs and climate denial, that does not mean that climate denial is the causal factor in whether or not the person believes in government mitigation.

      It's analogous to vaccine denial - just because anti-vaxers are retards doesn't mean they will sit around and let the plague wash over them. When the shit hits the fan, they'll deal with the mitigation even while denying that they had a thing to do with it.

      --
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    22. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Roads are built, right aways and easements are put in place for utilities, police and fire services, and other public services exist.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    23. Re:Its pretty important... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 2

      The marshes on the coast are where the fish spend the first part of the their lives in relative safety before heading out to more open areas. When the incoming water destroys land it is removing the marshes and they are not being replaced so the sea life will be impacted as the young fish won't have as many protected areas to grow up in.

    24. Re:Its pretty important... by Nunya666 · · Score: 2

      It's a shame more people don't realize this, as evidenced by the multiple posts on here suggesting that people need to relocate. I've lived all over the country, but I've spent the majority of my life here in Louisiana and I'd like to stay here.

      That's your choice. Why should the rest of society subsidize your poor choices?

      They were born here; to suggest that they just pack up and move is pretty short-sighted and somewhat insulting.

      No, to suggest that they just pack up and move is common sense. The U.S. is a mighty big country. Just pick another location, and move. To continue living anywhere that continues to get battered by Mother Nature is just plain ignorant. Just because they think it's "home" is not a valid reason. Just because they were born there is not a valid reason. At some point in your life, you have to take responsibility for your actions. And that includes where you choose to live.

    25. Re:Its pretty important... by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      That's your choice. Why should the rest of society subsidize your poor choices?

      No, to suggest that they just pack up and move is common sense. The U.S. is a mighty big country. Just pick another location, and move. To continue living anywhere that continues to get battered by Mother Nature is just plain ignorant. Just because they think it's "home" is not a valid reason. Just because they were born there is not a valid reason. At some point in your life, you have to take responsibility for your actions. And that includes where you choose to live.

      The point is...if this happens off the coast of LA to the point of the worst case scenario....this will not just affect those people who "choose to live there"...it will effect a great portion of the US economy, which will affect the whole country.

      If you even discount the amount of domestic seafood that this part of LA produces for the whole of the US, you'll definitely feel it in the shortages of oil and gas that come from this area. Not only production from the Gulf coming in (those people that work those platforms live close to the coast for access to work)....but also the large processing plants in LA for oil from all over the world that feeds into the US.

      Chances are, no matter where in the US you live, you likely get your gas from the processing plants in southern LA.

      And for many parts here, New Orleans for instance, it is OLDER than the United States itself. The danger has evolved over the years, and a lot of this erosion is due to the pipes cutting across the bayous and the artificial water ways dug to transport all that oil from the Gulf to the processing plants and then to your tank.

      SO, if you drive a car, or fuel your home heater...you do have a stake in the coastal erosion of southern LA.

      NIMBY the rest of the US, doesn't want the oil refineries....we've given our coastline for the rest of the US, so why not shows some togetherness and thankfulness for that and help restore the coast.

      If you're going to be that way....there is NO safe place in the US to live. Should we tell all the folks along the MS river to move, since it floods there? What about all those folks living where wildfires annually are rampant in CA? NYC is pretty much a huge terrorist target, why should we pay to protect it...etc?

      Don't be so fucking selfish....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    26. Re:Its pretty important... by luis_a_espinal · · Score: 1

      It's a shame more people don't realize this, as evidenced by the multiple posts on here suggesting that people need to relocate. I've lived all over the country, but I've spent the majority of my life here in Louisiana and I'd like to stay here.

      The majority of the folks affected by this live in areas such as Plaquemines, Terrebone, and Lafourche parishes aren't rich by any means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... They were born here; to suggest that they just pack up and move is pretty short-sighted and somewhat insulting.

      The notion that people must be immune to relocation just because they "were born there" is an insult to human nature. Conditions change, Things go south, .Shit happens. People relocate, never to return. It's what humans do. It's what humans are meant to do.

    27. Re:Its pretty important... by cayenne8 · · Score: 2

      Seafood doesn't even factor into this. "More" ocean is supposed to translate into less seafood? Seriously?

      Actually it will.

      The brackish water of the marshes that is eroding...is a major part of the ecosystem of birth and lifecycle on a lot of fish that start there, breed there, but move more into the ocean. Oysters live on that edge between fresh and salt water....if you lose the marshes, you lose that wide area they can proliferate.

      There's also the bird population that depends on this area.

      So, no, it is not as simple as "more ocean". That entire ecosystem between the ocean and the fresh water is very important and if not replaced and allowed to disappear, will have great consequences for the seafood and other life that feed a good bit of the US.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    28. Re:Its pretty important... by Layzej · · Score: 2

      As I understand it, the biggest problem is NOT climate change or any other such disaster; the problem is human interference. They have channeled and canalled and levee'd and dredged the Mississippi output. The water -full of silt - that used to wash over the delta and deposit replacement dirt on the marshes and islands during heavy flow days (?) now is channeled along the river between high banks and well out to sea.

      There are many factors. Sea level rise is one of them. As it is the one that is accelerating, it is likely to play an ever increasing role.

    29. Re:Its pretty important... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You know, this is where the Bullshit Train boards. You list several important causes of flooding and yet you insist that "climate has nothing to do with it". Why leave out that cause, when you accept all the other causes?

      Oh right, climate change cannot be real. So divert attention to the other issues and fight a rearguard action against climate change. Your politics are showing.

      In 50 or 100 years, Louisiana may be in real trouble, along with Florida and numerous coastal cities. At that time your spiritual successors will curse their political opponents for not doing enough to stop or mitigate the damage. And that's what will happen, no introspection, no acceptance that one's own side spent decades in denial, no truth or accountability. There will be endless attempts to blame "Librals" and "Godless Scientists" and "Worshippers of False Idols".

      All aboard the Bullshit Train!!

    30. Re:Its pretty important... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1
      Question: what would it take to get you to admit that measurably rising sea levels due to climate change is causing problems? We're losing goddamn Louisiana to it. Literally everyone who studies this stuff for a living agrees with this. No one seriously doubts it. But you'd rather blame some river hacking for literally submerging Louisiana.

      What are you going to blame when we lose Florida? Is there a convenient river there to point the finger at? What ungodly amount of river water is flowing through the Solomon Islands that's causing them to disappear7?

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    31. Re:Its pretty important... by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Informative

      So ironically, transporting the oil and gas out of the region is putting oil and gas production in jeopardy.

      That would seem to be yet another reason to transition this country away from fossil fuels altogether. That would address both the erosion issue and the fossil fuel dependence at the same time.

      As far as seafood goes, there's going to be a coastline somewhere, no matter how far it moves into the current state of Louisiana. The seafood will still come from wherever that is.

    32. Re:Its pretty important... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      doesn't mean they will sit around and let the plague wash over them

      That's exactly what they'll do. Just like the fucken climate deniers will keep ignoring the truth until the planet is irrecoverably fucked.

    33. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      That's simply not true. People built dikes and levees all throughout history. It's only in the last 20 years that we've had credible climate science. What makes you think that people will suddenly become fundamentally different?

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    34. Re:Its pretty important... by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd have a lot more sympathy for people from LA, if their representatives didn't vote against aid for people affected by Hurricaine Sandy. That would be Reps. Steve Scalise, John Flemming and Sen. Bill Cassidy. See: http://www.latimes.com/busines... for example. And I'd be more sympathetic if Sen. Cassidy wasn't a climate change skeptic. If the oil companies want to buy a themselves a LA senator, they can pay for protecting the state from climate change too.

      --
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    35. Re:Its pretty important... by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      I don't see why their place of birth matters. I don't live in the same state I was born in, and I didn't need a federal bailout to move. How pathetic are people that the government has to solve all their problems?

      As for Syria, we should not be relocating them either. They need to get their government under control.

    36. Re:Its pretty important... by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      So everyone that thinks a lot of what the government does is bad is a sociopath?

      I don't want to have to pay to irrigate the desert nor do I want to pay to rescue landowners on the shoreline. I never had the benefit of a shoreline view, therefore why should I be taxed to pay for those that do? If you want to turn all those lands into public beaches, maybe. Why do people living in livable areas of the country need to pay for those geniuses that choose to live in otherwise uninhabitable areas?

    37. Re:Its pretty important... by OhPlz · · Score: 1

      If the feds weren't stealing the money out of our paychecks, the states and towns could tax more to pay for the upkeep themselves. The feds use this money to force states to comply with decisions beyond the authority of the federal government. It's corruption, and it should stop.

    38. Re:Its pretty important... by qeveren · · Score: 1

      "They should have thought of that before they decided to be poor." /s

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    39. Re:Its pretty important... by PlusFiveTroll · · Score: 1

      >t you'd rather blame some river hacking for literally submerging Louisiana

      Yes, because in this case you don't know what you're talking about. Flordia is built on rock (limestone in fact), when it see rises it stays the same level. Louisiana is not. The LA flood plain, if we allowed the natural flow of the river would take far longer than all the other land around it to be submerged by sea level rise. You should learn how river deltas work, and the fact they naturally compress over time.

    40. Re:Its pretty important... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      I'm actually pretty easy to please in this department. I would like to see some indication that the problem is well understood. Predictions that aren't vague, and that don't need to be "corrected" post hoc would do most of it for me.

      But I'm guessing that you have no idea how wobbly the chain is.

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    41. Re:Its pretty important... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I'm actually pretty impossible to please in this department. I would like to see yet still more indication that the problem is well understood. Predictions that are precise to 15 digits, and that unlike all other scientific endeavors don't need to be "corrected" post hoc would do most of it for me.

      But that's the thing: it is very well understood, and scientists have made many predictions that are panning out. No one's ever going to say "the earth will get x.xxxxxxx% warmer on this date". Predictions are in the form of "we believe the atmosphere will get between x and y% warmer, with a confidence of z". And they've been accurate as stated. Any claims to the contrary are radical restatements of history.

      --
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    42. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      worst case extreme if climate change is real: massive amounts of people die, you get to watch those you love perish around you due to rising tides destroying any pitiful leevees. those that survive have trouble feeding themselves.

      This is bizarre. Even the most pessimistic models have the climate warming a few degrees over the course of a century. This picture you paint of a disaster movie is absurd. People will be displaced, some places will become uninhabitable, others will become habitable. It's not like the ocean will come rushing in and kill everyone in Miami. We aren't looking at "Waterworld". Levees will indeed fail, and the decision will need to be made to either abandon the area or build larger levees. People will be forced to deal with climate change whether or not they believe it is man-made.

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    43. Re:Its pretty important... by OhPlz · · Score: 2

      I call it stealing because they take it automatically from our checks. You can't protest by refusing to pay because they've already taken it. We don't pay, they take without permission.

    44. Re:Its pretty important... by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Because the effects of climate change are not quick and obvious like a flooding river that needs diking. The climate will reach a point-of-no-return where no amount of mitigation will ever fix it. Ever. But by the time the effects of that are obvious enough to turn the heads of deniers, it's too late.

    45. Re:Its pretty important... by Goetterdaemmerung · · Score: 1

      The White House no longer recognizes man's effect on climate, which means there's little hope of policy directed at mitigating man's effects on climate - and still probably none even if they acknowledge the climate is changing and are merely ignoring man's role.

      Seriously? The White House is not omnipotent. All hope does not rest on who runs the executive branch. Write your congressperson. They pass the laws. They can take the power back if they can decide to work together and steamroll the current administration.

    46. Re:Its pretty important... by Orgasmatron · · Score: 1

      The most recent climate model simulations used in the AR5 indicate that the warming stagnation since 1998 is no longer consistent with model projections even at the 2% confidence level.

      For reference, the 2% confidence level is out past "wild ass guess" territory and approaching "enemy action" land. Feel free to link me up a model that has made a successful prediction. (Side note: only predictions of the future are accepted, so these links need to be about 5 years old, minimum.)

      And then there is Pat Frank. He has made a model that more closely matches reality than anything so far put out by the hockey team, but you won't like it. See his essay.and presentation. Watch the presentation, it is fantastic. And be sure to check the math yourself.

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    47. Re:Its pretty important... by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The poor do not live on water front with the exclusionary intent to deny others access to that waterfront. The poor also rarely own their homes, so moving not that much of a hassle.

      At an estimate we are talking 2 metres of water rise and mitigation is impossible unless billions is spent. Want to preserve you exclusionary waterfront property, pay for it, put it on stilts and ride a boat to work. You bought there, your problem, it's not like you weren't warned http://www.lenntech.com/greenh... a very long time ago, 18fucking96. Want to get paid, sue those who lied about it, don't expect the poor to pay for the excesses of the rich yet again.

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    48. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      The climate will reach a point-of-no-return where no amount of mitigation will ever fix it. Ever.

      I really don't know what you mean. The coastline will change, people will have to be moved or the coastline will have to be fortified. That is mitigation. Current farmland will become marginal and marginal farmland will become fertile. Moving stuff around is mitigation. It's not even really a choice - mitigation just has to happen so that people can go on living.

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    49. Re:Its pretty important... by mcswell · · Score: 2

      According to NOAA (https://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html), sea level rise at Grand Isle LA averaged slightly over 9 mm/ year since 1947, and 9.65 mm/ year at Eugene Island LA. And 4.71 mm/ year at New Canal LA. (Those are the 3 locations on that graphic.) According to the wikipedia (attributed to an IPCC report), average global sea level rise in the 20th century is in the neighborhood of 1.8 mm/ year. Those are different time frames, but afaik the 20th century rise was more or less linear, so the IPCC numbers should hold for the NOAA time frame. That means that the global sea level rise for two of the three LA stations accounts for only about 20% of the rise; less than 40% for the third station.

      So no, you cannot attribute most of the rising sea level in Louisiana to climate change. Instead, most of the problem there is subsidence. And as for whether "Literally everyone who studies this stuff for a living agrees with this", wrong. As stated in the IPCC report (http://old.grida.no//climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/422.htm#tab119): "Coastal subsidence in river delta regions can be an important contributing factor to sea level change, with a typical magnitude of 10 mm/yr, although the phenomenon will usually be of a local character. Regions of documented subsidence include the Mediterranean deltas (Stanley, 1997), the Mississippi delta (Day et al., 1993)..." The sea level rise in LA is real; the attribution of that rise to climate change is only 20% true.

      As for the Solomon Islands, the rise there is also well above global average, something like 7mm/ year. That suggests that factors other than global sea level rise, brought on by climate change, are to blame, as the author of the study (Dr. Simon Albert) that reported on the loss of those islands himself stated.

      And finally, as for Florida, last I looked we haven't lost it. (Well, the Democrats lost it last November, but you know what I mean.) The entire state is on top of a fresh water aquifer, and withdrawals from that aquifer have increased in recent decades. But I don't know whether the removal of fresh water would cause subsidence, or just replacement of fresh water by salt water.

    50. Re:Its pretty important... by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      So where is this proof that man has any effect on climate? We have some models, that over the years haven't worked out based on the current level of CO2. As Einstein said - once there is on counter example your proof/theory is no more. Yet they keep trying to prove it is instead of realizing it's not CO2. CO2 is a symptom, not the cause and history going back millions of years proves that. Paying Al Gore a whole bunch of money won't change that. It'll make his get rich quick scheme work, however. It's helped shoddy science that we should all be upset about prevail. Science where we can never reproduce the results that some people received a PhD for.

      One really good indicator that MMGW is a scam is we know the nuts at NASA have been changing the data. All you have to do is look at the way back machine and you can see definitively that the 1930s is not as hot as it actually was. Stubborn facts, so they changed them.

      https://realclimatescience.com...

    51. Re:Its pretty important... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Agreed, but when the water comes up, they'll have to deal with it - either through construction or relocation or both.

      Let's say that tomorrow, scientists make a huge discovery that completely changes the climate models. It turns out that not only is mankind not responsible for climate change, but it is indeed fluctuations in the sun. How does this change our mitigation efforts? The answer is that it does not. Either way, we have to respond to higher water levels and a warming climate.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    52. Re:Its pretty important... by martinfb · · Score: 1

      I am pretty sure that seafood will not go away with erosion.
      It MAY even get better, and closer inland ;-).

      Spilled oil, however, will adversely affect seafood production.

      You may want to clarify some thinking here.
      How do you figure that rising sea at the LA coastline affects seafood production?

      --


      Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
  2. Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Linsaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And the Republicans insist climate change isn't real . . . well maybe when half the red leaning states are under water they'll open their eyes. Probably be way too late by that point though.

    --
    In a bit of shameless internet panhandling, I accept Litecoin Donations at Lbd2oH9QsthD1GfuUXPyka12YxvWJYnBVf
    1. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And Republicans will insist that the federal government pick up the tab for fixing the problems that they made.

    2. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This has nothing to do with climate change. The coastline is disappearing because they locked the Mississippi down to a single specific channel thus stopping it from depositing sediment across it's massive delta.

    3. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Yeah. The southern part of Louisiana are alluvial plains and swamps. If I'm not mistaken New Orleans is in the Mississippi delta. Hmmm. WTF does that mean?

      It means we shouldn't be fighting mother nature to keep the city going.

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    4. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      At least it's still better than the fake reporting ProPublica regularly cons NPR into.

    5. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      But what they'll tell the voters is that Canada is paying for it.

    6. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      The problem that the Democratic government of Louisiana made over the last 50 years? That one?

      The 58.1% that voted for Trump.

      http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/louisiana

    7. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem that the Democratic government of Louisiana made over the last 50 years? That one?

      What problems would that be? Not throwing out the users of one of America's most active seaports? Not shutting down the petroleum extraction companies? Not forcing people to move elsewhere?

      The fact is, not only have Democrats tried to foster coastal restoration for the past 50 years(check out the legislative history), it has been Republicans refusing to fund the efforts and combined it with hand-wringing denials of any problems. This has been a national problem, ever since Reagan and his anti-government agenda took over.

      The saddest thing, is if the Russians could be blamed on the problem, it'd have already been solved. He'd have spared no expense on that. Well, ok, he'd probably have messed that up too, such is the way of things.

      The greatest irony, of course, is that the partisan shifting has now given Republicans responsibility for the people's anger and rage at the very thing the GOP could have acted to prevent.

      Much like they now own the racist bigots who want to secede. It is terribly funny in a way.

    8. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by iggymanz · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      nonsense.

      this situation with La. coastline has zero to do with climate change, even the "rising sea level" cited as reason is not valid.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      yes after giving the prime causes, even that article mentions that *lately* climate change is also given as reason....without citation of course. because it isn't relevant at all next to the primary factors

    9. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is not a climate problem but a geology problem exacerbated by flood control efforts - the section of continental shelf that louisiana is on is very weak, and is slowly sagging down into the earths core. The mississippi used to dump enough eroded topsoil there to keep it above sea level, but since it's walled in by levees it hasn't done that in decades, with the predictable result.

    10. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      "Tax cuts reduce the temperature of the atmosphere!"

      Eventually. Any perturbation should eventually become an oscillation. And increasing the temperature of one part of the atmosphere will likely cool another part by a much smaller amount, so there is almost certainly some local cooling at some altitude caused by local resource mismanagement that results from tax cuts.

      Doesn't really help from a "negative affects on humans" perspective, though.

    11. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Citation please.

      Uh, seriously?

    12. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by nucrash · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://northiowatoday.com/2012...

      Tom Vilsack was a Democrat. Still, I recall how many conservative farmers would complain about poor people taking from the government and yet they were first in line when this money was handed out.

      --
      Place something witty here
    13. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by nucrash · · Score: 1
      --
      Place something witty here
    14. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Beezlebub33 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      http://www.latimes.com/busines... When Louisana floods, they want money. When NJ floods, they vote against it. Hypocrisy.

      --
      The more people I meet, the better I like my dog.
    15. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by gordguide · · Score: 1

      But what they'll tell the voters is that Canada is paying for it.

      Canada might actually be helping ... Sea Ice causes the Oceans to fall in level as it melts. Its Landlocked Ice (like Greenland) that causes levels to rise as it melts. Now, I don't know if anyone has done the math, Canada certainly has some of the latter going on as well ... I certainly haven't ... but maybe the melting in the Northwest Passage is giving it the Old College Try at least.

    16. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The irony is that you are the one promoting fake science with your post. The erosion here isn't caused by AGW. If any, just a very small percent.

      But most likely you will ignore that fact, and continue on with your angry rant.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    17. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by swillden · · Score: 1

      And the Republicans insist climate change isn't real . . . well maybe when half the red leaning states are under water they'll open their eyes. Probably be way too late by that point though.

      I wouldn't count on that. A lot of red-leaning states are inland, while the coasts are 2/3 blue.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    18. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Seriously.

      You're not a student of human nature then. It's quite natural for people to think that OTHER PEOPLE (typically minorities) are unworthy of government assistance and proclaiming their own self-sufficiency from government assistance. But if a storm comes through, floods their home because it was built on a flood plain, and they didn't bother to buy flood insurance, they fully expect to get government assistance. After all, they paid taxes and OTHER PEOPLE did not.

      And I note you still haven't provided one.

      Others have provided with at least five examples.

    19. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      when their houses get flooded in a major storm, they're the first ones in line for federal assistance?

      Yes, especially all those Republicans in the New Orleans area, which went 80% for Clinton in the most recent presidential election, and which went around 90% for Obama in 2012. I'm sure they elbowed their way to the front of the line.

      In large part, the rural areas of Louisiana are Republican. Tell me where all the stories were about the literal square miles of Louisiana that were flattened by Katrina? As I recall, the coverage and the response largely focused on New Orleans, because everybody knows that a miles-wide hurricane always strikes poor inner city people with surgical precision.

      Yes, it's clear that Louisiana has a history of Republicans just stealing the spotlight away from the poor Democrat voters whenever something bad happens.

    20. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Really? Louisiana is a democratic machine. Corrupt as hell, has been for decades. Just because they voted for Trump as the nation did doesn't somehow put everything on the Republicans/Trump.

      Hell, in case you haven't noticed, Trump is really neither a Dem or a Rep. They would both happily nail him if they could. They're the alligators and they don't like the swamp being drained.

    21. Re:Yeah, Climate Change isn't real /sarcasm by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      Really? It was the Republican Machine of Louisiana that didn't maintain the flood walls and levees?

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
  3. Re:Louisiana is one big sinkhole by cayenne8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Large parts of the state are below sea level.

    No, it's pretty much just New Orleans that sits below sea level.

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  4. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't worry, carbon taxes will fix it. Carbon taxes can fix all environmental problems.

  5. A Wall by NicknameUnavailable · · Score: 1
    Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with a wall:
    • Build wall around Louisiana.
    • Install cameras on wall.
    • Livestream results for entertainment as they slowly evolve into mermaids.
  6. "one football field of land every hour" by beowulfcluster · · Score: 4, Funny

    But how many libraries of congress of land every hour is that?

    1. Re: "one football field of land every hour" by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      But how many libraries of congress of land every hour is that?

      I never realised that they played that much football in Louisiana.

    2. Re: "one football field of land every hour" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not mentioning the need for running in hip boots...

      Or drowning in a tackle...

      Kickoff is a bit difficult - the ball won't stay on the tee... it keeps floating away.

    3. Re: "one football field of land every hour" by sootman · · Score: 1

      I was going to covert that to metric but there's not a single standard size for soccer or rugby fields.

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
  7. Hahahah, you libtard FOOLS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I can't believe all you idiots believe this is actually happening. What a bunch of libtard climate-change believing fuck-muffins you are! Lucky for me I'm a diehard Republican through and through, so I'm busily buying up all this supposedly disappearing land. I stand to make billions!

    1. Re:Hahahah, you libtard FOOLS! by TrumpShaker · · Score: 2

      Good for you! I hope your "land" ends up being Territorial Waters.

    2. Re:Hahahah, you libtard FOOLS! by gtall · · Score: 1

      I thought we were going to have Mexico pay for a big beautiful wall. We'll just make Mexico pay to extend it through Florida. It is the Gulf of *Mexico* after all. While we're at it, we'll annex Hawaii and make it a state, then we can tell those judges out there how to rule.

    3. Re:Hahahah, you libtard FOOLS! by k6mfw · · Score: 1

      As gtall implied, yes it will cost tons of money but since this is Gulf of Mexico that is causing coastlines disappear, people will then make Mexico pay for it! And I like that comment of "climate change is a buncha bullshblublublub^C LOST CARRIER"

      --
      mfwright@batnet.com
  8. Reasons by Pollux · · Score: 4, Informative

    Decades of saltwater intrusion, subsidence and rising sea levels

    No, that's not why the delta's disappearing. Here are the reasons why:

    1) Levees and flood protections prevent silt from the Mississippi from depositing into the delta to maintain it, and
    2) Oil drilling required dredging up the delta to permit pipelines and shipping lanes, destroying wetlands that help capture and build-up the silt.

    1. Re:Reasons by Elfich47 · · Score: 4, Informative

      If I can add to this:

      The delta used to shift and move the river bed quite often. With the canals and leeves in place the natural tendency of the river to move is being fought against. It is the reason why the river breaks out at odd places just up stream or downstream of existing leeves. Part of this is a result of the silt deposits that used to be carried downstream by the Mississippi.

      With the wetlands being destroyed the ocean barrier that helped protect against storms is being destroyed. Which exposed larger areas of the coast line to damage.

      --
      Architectural plans are like computer source code with a couple of differences: You only compile once.
    2. Re:Reasons by d34thm0nk3y · · Score: 4, Informative

      From your link:

      "So we're fighting this massive loss of surface land [and] we're also subsiding because we're not replenishing these wetlands," Marshall says. "On top of that, here comes global warming and sea level rise." According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, southern Louisiana has "the highest rate of relative sea level rise of any place in the country, and one of the highest rates anywhere on the planet."

    3. Re:Reasons by Orgasmatron · · Score: 2

      Articles:

      http://www.newyorker.com/magaz...

      https://placesjournal.org/arti...

      good quotes:

      Society requires artifice to survive in a region where nature might reasonably have asked a few more eons to finish a work of creation that was incomplete - Albert Cowdrey

      This nation has a large and powerful adversary. Our opponent could cause the United States to lose nearly all her seaborne commerce, to lose her standing as first among trading nations. . . .We are fighting Mother Nature. . . .It's a battle we have to fight day by day, year by year; the health of our economy depends on victory

      The Mississippi River, with its sand and silt, has created most of Louisiana, and it could not have done so by remaining in one channel. If it had, southern Louisiana would be a long narrow peninsula reaching into the Gulf of Mexico. Southern Louisiana exists in its present form because the Mississippi River has jumped here and there within an arc about two hundred miles wide, like a pianist playing with one hand - frequently and radically changing course, surging over the left or the right bank to go off in utterly new directions. Always it is the river's purpose to get to the Gulf by the shortest and steepest gradient. As the mouth advances southward and the river lengthens, the gradient declines, the current slows, and sediment builds up the bed. Eventually, it builds up so much that the river spills to one side. Major shifts of that nature have tended to occur roughly once a millennium. The Mississippi's main channel of three thousand years ago is now the quiet water of Bayou Teche, which mimics the shape of the Mississippi. Along Bayou Teche, on the high ground of ancient natural levees, are Jeanerette, Breaux Bridge, Broussard, Olivierâ"arcuate strings of Cajun towns. Eight hundred years before the birth of Christ, the channel was captured from the east. It shifted abruptly and flowed in that direction for about a thousand years. In the second century a.d., it was captured again, and taken south, by the now unprepossessing Bayou Lafourche, which, by the year 1000, was losing its hegemony to the river's present course, through the region that would be known as Plaquemines. By the nineteen-fifties, the Mississippi River had advanced so far past New Orleans and out into the Gulf that it was about to shift again, and its offspring Atchafalaya was ready to receive it. By the route of the Atchafalaya, the distance across the delta plain was a hundred and forty-five miles - well under half the length of the route of the master stream.

      For the Mississippi to make such a change was completely natural, but in the interval since the last shift Europeans had settled beside the river, a nation had developed, and the nation could not afford nature. The consequences of the Atchafalaya's conquest of the Mississippi would include but not be limited to the demise of Baton Rouge and the virtual destruction of New Orleans. With its fresh water gone, its harbor a silt bar, its economy disconnected from inland commerce, New Orleans would turn into New Gomorrah.

      --
      See that "Preview" button?
    4. Re:Reasons by RobRyland · · Score: 1

      "Louisiana 1927"

      What has happened down here is the winds have changed
        Clouds roll in from the north and it started to rain
        Rained real hard and it rained for a real long time
        Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline

        The river rose all day
        The river rose all night
        Some people got lost in the flood
        Some people got away alright
        The river have busted through clear down to Plaquemines
        Six feet of water in the streets of Evangeline

        President Coolidge came down in a railroad train
        With a little fat man with a note-pad in his hand
        The President say, "Little fat man isn't it a shame what the river has done
        To this poor crackers land."

  9. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by sound+vision · · Score: 1

    It could. Where are the floodwaters coming from? What is the ground composed of and what does the water table underneath look like? Are there any dikes or dams along the way that we might adjust? Boiling flood risk down to a single number might work for insurance companies, but devising a real solution to the problem requires a bit more analysis and thought.

  10. So the maths by rickb928 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    seem to indicate that Louisiana is losing 3300 acres a year to the Gulf. about 5 square miles.

    Plaquemines Parish is about 780 square miles, so if all loss were in Plaquemines, it would be losing about 0.6% per year land mass. Of course the loss is spread amongst 9 or more parishes, probably 10x the area total, the loss then becoming more like 0.06% per year.

    This, my friends, is a Democrat emergency.

    Mind you, this is an emergency to any family who used to live on land claimed by the Gulf, but not many do, as they are wise to the ways of water, and build differently there than elsewhere. I've played nine-ball in the Bayou. It's different there, mostly in good ways. But the Governor is certainly working this for all it is worth.

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    1. Re:So the maths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "more than 1,800 square miles of land between 1932 and 2010, including 300 square miles of marshland between 2004 and 2008 alone."

      In the first case that's 1800 sq miles over 78 years or 23 sq miles per year.

      In the second case that's 300 sq miles over 4 years or 75 sq miles per year.

      Whichever number you use (and if you include the year in the range, so the numbers may be +/- 1 year) it's still greater than 5 sq miles per year.

    2. Re:So the maths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      seem to indicate that Louisiana is losing 3300 acres a year to the Gulf. about 5 square miles.

      Plaquemines Parish is about 780 square miles, so if all loss were in Plaquemines, it would be losing about 0.6% per year land mass. Of course the loss is spread amongst 9 or more parishes, probably 10x the area total, the loss then becoming more like 0.06% per year.

      This, my friends, is a Democrat emergency.

      Mind you, this is an emergency to any family who used to live on land claimed by the Gulf, but not many do, as they are wise to the ways of water, and build differently there than elsewhere. I've played nine-ball in the Bayou. It's different there, mostly in good ways. But the Governor is certainly working this for all it is worth.

      That, my friends, is a partisan moron's response. Says it's about the math, doesn't do the actual math, or can't do it, chalks it up to a problem with the other party, because their low and incorrect FIVE SQUARE MILES a year figure isn't enough about which to be concerned. Fucking useless moron.

    3. Re: So the maths by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Governor Edwards is a Democrat... He succeeded Bobby Jindal, Republican.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  11. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by joerdie · · Score: 1

    No one is talking about carbon credits anymore. And they haven't in a while. But don't shit on people with an idea when you don't have a better one.

  12. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Basically anything south of Alexandria (which sits dead center of Louisiana) is consistently flooding. This includes many major cities (New Orleans, Baton Rouge, and Lafayette).

    There is really no way to stop this, the state is literally sinking.

  13. The problem with your explanation by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with your explanation is that it's fact-based, and stands on good science. This is the post-truth era. Thus, the counter to your argument will be:

    • Evidence for a human cause of erosion is thin and controversial, and is being pushed by loony liberals.
    • We need those oil and shipping jobs, and jobs building and maintaining levees, not more regulation that stifles them!
    • Cause and effect is not a real thing, except for one cause, God is behind everything.
    • This is part of God's plan for us. The end time is coming, and when the Rapture arrives it will not matter that Louisiana's coast has eroded. Cease your pursuit of unholy science and pray to save your soul!
    1. Re:The problem with your explanation by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Query: Why would those arguments even exist, considering that the vast majority of the levees, dams, and canals we have today were built during the Great Depression as jobs programs, viz the WPA. Last I checked, these programs was spawned by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and LA's governor at the time (who happily agreed) was the infamous Huey Long... neither of whom were members of the party you seek to demonize.

      Maybe it would benefit you to realize that the problems in TFA were caused by misguided engineering efforts held throughout the first half of the 20th century?

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:The problem with your explanation by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      Oh, of course they were caused by misguided engineering efforts. Everything from the Army Corps of Engineers to Smoky Bear goes under that heading. The most basic problem is the fact that we locate cities next to resources and transportation, which means water, without realizing where the 400-year flood plane is. Etc. We have learned something since then.

      Our problem, today, is fixing these things. Which is blocked by folks who don't believe in anthropogenic climate change, or even cause and effect at all. They don't, for the most part, register Democratic.

    3. Re:The problem with your explanation by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      Or maybe the problem started back then but as time has progressed the problem has gotten worse as the protection provided by thousands of years of silt has been washed away and climate change has raised sea levels? There used to be sand bars protecting the coastline so not as much would have been taken away but without the silt from the river over these past 80 years the sandbars have gone. If the engineering efforts of the past decade or so were to blame there would be still more protection and the loss of the coastline wouldn't be as bad as it is yet.

    4. Re:The problem with your explanation by green1 · · Score: 2

      We have learned something since then.

      I'd love to think you're right, but I just can't.

      We see it over and over again, in many places the oldest parts of the city is fine but the newer parts are the problem, 150+ years ago the people settling areas often looked at the terrain before building and built on hills, but since then we gave up and decided that riverfront was a selling feature instead of a hazard.

      A few years ago we had major flooding here, the original historic properties (first houses in a city founded at the junction of 2 rivers) were high and dry (of course now they're a park), but the modern skyscrapers had their basements full of water.

      Interestingly enough, in rich countries riverfront, lakefront, and oceanfront properties are where the wealthiest people live, but in poorer countries the wealthy people live up on hills and the poor people live on the floodplains, maybe we could learn something? when you live right beside water, water may come to visit you!

    5. Re:The problem with your explanation by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      What you are observing is economics. As a city or town population grows, the best land becomes unavailable and those who arrive later or have less funds available must settle for less desirable land. Thus many cities have been extended using landfill which liquifies as the San Francisco Marina District did in the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake, or floods. Risks may not be disclosed by developers, or may be discounted by authorities as the risks of global warming are today.

      Efforts to protect people who might otherwise buy such land or to mitigate the risks are often labeled as government over-reach or nanny state.

    6. Re:The problem with your explanation by green1 · · Score: 1

      But again, the most expensive land is what you just called "less desirable". It seems in fact that the floodplain land in most cities is the most expensive, not the least. People WANT to live beside the water, even though it's a horrible idea. The most expensive properties in my city tend to have a river running through their backyard, they're also the first to flood. So every time they flood, the government pays out millions of dollars in disaster relief to the richest people in town.

      You can hardly say that the risks weren't disclosed either, the river is *IN* their yard!

    7. Re: The problem with your explanation by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      I understand your point about view land being desirable even though it's a flood risk. I live a mile or so from the Hayward fault. But I have California's risk pool earthquake insurance. The government wouldn't be paying me except from a fund that I've already paid into. I imagine that the government does pay some rich people in similar situations, but as far as I'm aware disaster funds go to the States from the federal government and should not in general become a form of rich people's welfare. Maybe you can find some direct evidence to show me that would make the situation more clear.

    8. Re: The problem with your explanation by green1 · · Score: 1

      Unless your government disaster relief is means tested, it by default goes mostly to whomever lives closest to the rivers, in the case of my city, the richest people.

    9. Re: The problem with your explanation by Bruce+Perens · · Score: 1

      If you look in the FEMA site, they say that they provide gramts to perform repairs not covered by insurance. And no, they don't do a needs test. Now, the typical rich person does not let their insurance lapse just so that they can get a FEMA grant. Because such a grant is no sure thing. They also point out that SBA loans are the main source of assistance following a disaster. You get a break on interest, but you have to pay them back.

    10. Re: The problem with your explanation by green1 · · Score: 1

      Where I live you simply can not buy overland flood insurance. It is not available at any price. So the wealthy don't have it either. Meaning they are just as eligible for government disaster relief as the poor, but far more likely to need it.

  14. By 2040 4/5th of Lousiana will be under water by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 2

    At the current rate of carbon emissions pumping energy into storms and glacial melt in Greenland, along with sad attempts to stop flood plains from renewing decaying soil mass by siltration deposit of alluvial soils, four fifths of Lousiana will be under water for part of the year.

    Look, flood plains are supposed to flood. Stopping the river deposits is why it's getting worse. Destroying the biomass buildup from salt infiltration from Gulf storms.

    Florida is way worse off, quite frankly. And it's all the fault of people sticking their heads in the sands (which will also disappear).

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:By 2040 4/5th of Lousiana will be under water by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 1

      80 percent you say..

  15. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by joerdie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Might have had?" Your ignorance is showing.

  16. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole point of carbon taxes is to set a price for CO2 emissions, with the baseline assumption that the market will produce solutions based on creating a sort of "artificial scarcity". If you're a free market advocate, carbon taxes are the way to go, because they are far easier to administer than regulatory regimes, carbon credits, and other regulation-style structures. Upping the price of carbon means alternatives become more attractive, and isn't that the name of the game?

    Unless, of course, you don't believe in free markets.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  17. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Penguinisto · · Score: 1, Insightful

    A few problems with that...

    1) So who sets the prices? Any governmental price controls on any commodity (which carbon credits are) means there is no free market involvement.

    1a) If the government sets prices, it is nothing more than a de facto regulatory scheme dressed up as commodity.

    2) Enforcement? Good luck with that.

    3) What's to keep government from requiring individuals (in addition to businesses) to buy these things, as a form of consumption tax?

    4) I thought we all got out of the business of selling indulgences back when Martin Luther showed up?

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
  18. Meh. What is science but a guess by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    CNN has a similar article about disappearing Louisiana coastline. One of the people interviewed has been shrimping for 54 years. His best comment, "It doesn't concern me.What is science? Science is an educated guess," Dotson says defiantly. "What if they guess wrong? There's just as much chance as them to be wrong as there is for them to be right."

    Mind you, Louisiana is the top most uneducated state in the nation and this particular area of Louisiana, Cameron county, has the highest percentage of people who do not believe climate change has an effect on plants or animals. Not man-made climate change, but any climate change.

    Another person in the article says he likes his AC and gas at reasonable prices so therefore, why, based on a prediction alone, should humans try to limit CO2 production?

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  19. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, the government will have to set the price, so it won't be a truly free market. But seeing as leaving it to the market to actually set the price means oil is obscenely cheap and it's use continues, until costs in other parts of the economy hit damaging levels (ie. how much do you want to spend on house insurance, flood remediation, and rising food costs, etc.) I did say "artificial scarcity".

    The fact is that CO2 emissions are trapping more heat in the lower atmosphere, the oceans and the surface of the planet. If you have some alternative solution, explain how it will solve this problem without creating an extremely intrusive regulatory regime, which everyone is going to hate a helluva lot more than simply setting a price on CO2 emissions.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  20. Old news: New Orleans is artificial and a mistake by knorthern+knight · · Score: 5, Informative

    From a 2005 post https://pesn.com/archive/2005/...

    Summary... the City of New Orleans is sinking, and sliding off the continental shelf. It's doomed even if sea levels did *NOT* rise.

    > The river is moving away from the city. The city is sinking because of its
    > weight, because no upbuilding by new muck for many decades, because of
    > being cut off from the fresh water, because it is sliding off a cliff (the Continental Shelf),
    > and because the Oil and Gas Industry is extracting oil out from under it.
    > It is a city that for all intents and purposes is now Sea domain.

    And, oh yeah, the very fact that ships can navigate from the Gulf of Mexico, up the Mississippi River is an anthropogenic artifact.

    > To understand the City of New Orleans one must first understand the
    > massive Mississippi River delta. New Orleans was built at the site of the old
    > "French Quarter" on the high ground adjacent to the Mississippi river.
    > This location was picked because the Mississippi River didn't have a mouth
    > into the ocean. The river simply went into the "Black Swamp" and disappeared.
    > This was where ships headed down river had to stop and unload their
    > goods to be transshipped across Lake Pontchartrain to the sea. This was
    > done by unloading the goods at the docks and then hauling them to the
    > lake where shallow draft boats would take the goods to the seagoing ships.
    >
    > By using some ingenious methods, Henry Shreve -- after whom
    > Shreveport, La., is named -- forced the river to dig its own channel out to
    > the sea where it now goes. This allowed the ocean-going boats access to
    > the enormous Mississippi river. This, together with the work of the US Army
    > Corps of Engineers, produced what is functionally the largest ocean port on earth.

    --

    I'm not repeating myself
    I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
  21. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Khyber · · Score: 4, Informative

    "What is the ground composed of and what does the water table underneath look like?"

    That entire area is in the Mississippi Delta Floodplains. Everything from Memphis to the Gulf of Mexico is practically FLOATING on a giant aquifer. All it takes is for New Madrid to go 7.5 or higher to put most of everything from Memphis down to Hattiesburg underwater. A large influx of water on the floodplains further south would probably cause a quicksand effect (and in fact there's tons of that in Louisiana) and simply wash everything away or drag much of it under the ground (as we witnessed with Katrina and New Orleans.)

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  22. Pumping from underground lowers the ground by cyberspittle · · Score: 1

    Out in California, during the drought, a lot of water was pumped from underground. This ended up in lowering the ground level. Maybe the oil and gas industry are doing the same in LA?

  23. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few problems with that...

    1) So who sets the prices? Any governmental price controls on any commodity (which carbon credits are) means there is no free market involvement.

    Only if you think like a Sith.

    The government charging you rent to store you carbon in public air is rather a lot more free market than "we're annexing all coal, natural gas, and petroleum related industryis under eminent domain and will be shutting them down.

  24. Re:We call them dykes by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

    That's just silly. Why would Mexico have to pay for the wall? Atlantis should have to pay for the wall since they control the oceans.

  25. Finally! by Dareth · · Score: 1

    I will have ocean front property in North Louisiana! If you buy that I will throw the Golden Gate in free!

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  26. Re:Meh. What is science but a guess by sl3xd · · Score: 2

    The fact is that many people have dearly held religious beliefs. These beliefs are held with a bond that is far more than any combination of logic or emotion; such conviction in any human is not to be trifled with.

    You can't attack people on such a personal, intimate, foundational level and expect people to follow you, or your ideas.

    Unfortunately, for decades, many claiming to represent science have been loudly proclaiming (without evidence, as it's unprovable either way) that "science" says that religion, and by extension the listener's very being, is false. It's a normal human reaction that, provided a choice between dismissing dearly held, foundational beliefs, and unprovable claims made by a "scientist", that the unprovable claims will be rejected wholesale - and religion is retained.

    Consequently, whenever there is a real, insight with multiple independent lines of evidence all pointing to a very similar conclusion (ie. good science), it is immediately discarded with prejudice -- all because of the asshat making unprovable claims about religion, often in an entirely different subject.

    There are a few assclowns that need to realize that human beings are not logical, rational creatures, never have been, and it's important to work within that constraint.

    It's harmful to both science and the world to evangelize science against religion (and by extension, saying that somebody who has a religion cannot be scientific), the result is exactly what we see in Louisiana: "What is science? Science is an educated guess" -- ie. contempt for science.

    --
    -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  27. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Layzej · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any governmental price controls on any commodity (which carbon credits are)

    GP is talking about a carbon tax, not carbon credits. A tax has many benefits and doesn't have the pitfalls you describe above. Best of all, a revenue neutral carbon tax would allow government to lower tax on things they ought to be encouraging like income and sales.

  28. They Made This Mess by EndlessNameless · · Score: 2

    Louisiana consistently elects small-government, anti-EPA, anti-climate Representatives and Senators. Now they want an environmental conservation bailout? They decry federal handouts, and then they turn around begging for help. How about "No".

    They cite:

    "Decades of saltwater intrusion, subsidence and rising sea levels"

    Yet, they ousted their only politician who even pretended to care about the environment and replaced her with Cassidy, whose policies will only hasten that outcome.

    New Orleans couldn't be arsed to maintain their levees, then Hurricane Katrina happened. Now this. Louisiana should change their motto to "The No Foresight State".

    --

    ---
    According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
  29. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  30. The end for the southern coastal towns by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 2

    I've long mused that despite the climate deniers howls, at some point we're going to hit an impasse. Due to historical reasons, we'll save New Orleans and other big name towns on the gulf coast in regions that sit at or below the water line.

    However, if you're from some town nobody's ever heard of that's on the coast, you're pretty much fucked. If we believe the models and so far they've been spot on, every year some percentage of these towns are going to get flooded and/or walloped by hurricanes.

    Each year the federal government and insurance agencies swoop in (for some value of swooping) and rebuild these towns. At some point insurance companies are going to cry uncle. They'll boost rates so high that literally nobody will be able to afford to rebuild. I could even see a situation where after a federal government has to step in and say "We're moving your entire community 50 miles in land and combining it with this other community" Why? Money and resources. At some point as wasteful as the government is, they're going to see the folly of rebuilding a town over and over and as the tide rises it's going to become less and less financially tenantable and take more and more resources.

    --
    Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
  31. Wrong by DogDude · · Score: 2

    Can I ask why you left off the third reason that the article you link to very clearly explains: sea level rise?

    "All of this results from three processes that reinforce and amplify each other’s effects: levee construction, oil and gas exploration and sea level rise."

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:Wrong by green1 · · Score: 1

      because the amount of sea level rise to date is minuscule by comparison to those other reasons and can't be taken seriously as a cause of this issue.

    2. Re:Wrong by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Says who? The author or the report didn't say that.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Wrong by DogDude · · Score: 1

      You're welcome to your somewhat paranoid opinion, but we're discussing this report, which most definitely says that seal level rise is a factor.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    4. Re:Wrong by green1 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, we're discussing the report, not worshipping it. Part of the discussion is to talk about how reasonable the various factors cited actually are.

  32. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by silentcoder · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Companies do not own the atmosphere. Citizens do. If they want to put things in our property we have every right to charge them rent by means of a tax.

    --
    Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
  33. Re:Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/748/

  34. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by fred6666 · · Score: 2

    carbon tax and cap and trade systems are both valid, free market solutions to the CO2 problem

    what is NOT a free market solution is incentives such as electric cars subsidies.

  35. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Facekhan · · Score: 1

    Government doesn't actually have to set the price. They just cap the availability and an auction process sets the price. Cap and trade ends up being more flexible and responsive to market conditions than a flat rate pollution tax.

    The government can manipulate the auction results via supply or reserve tranches of credits, (effectively at cheaper prices) for some nationally important industries or exempt small emitters (like you and your car) while requiring large emitters like an airline or rail conglomerate or a electrical utility to purchase the credits each year.

  36. Re:Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Woldscum · · Score: 1

    Pull up Google earth and look at all of the Oilfield canals in the coastal marsh. The 1st offshore oil well in the world was drilled south of Morgan City and offshore drilling was born there. http://www.rigmuseum.com/charl... The problem is the US Government has stolen all of the money from offshore drilling in Louisiana's waters from the 1950's to today. States that do not allow drilling in their own waters get a cut of what is rightly Louisianans money. It will not cost the Fed anything. Just give LA the royalties from the existing infrastructure.

    http://www.nola.com/politics/i...
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
    http://www.thetowntalk.com/sto...

  37. It's not simply a Louisiana problem ... by gordguide · · Score: 1

    Where Louisiana is going to come up against the biggest hurdle isn't it's own particular issue, but the problem with regard to the entire Eastern Seaboard, the Gulf, and to perhaps a lesser extent, but just as fraught with pitfalls, the West Coast.

    This scares the living daylights out of the White House and Congress, because anything they do in Louisiana will be under a huge microscope, will set perhaps irreversible precedents, and is going to have other states lining up for the same treatment.

    Paralysis is clearly the best option, from the Fed's perspective. They see a seemingly endless range of issues, they fear any response will bite them in the future, and, frankly, they can't afford to do much in the first place.; It's like a 30-state Disaster Zone they don't want to know anything about.

  38. Re:Louisiana is one big sinkhole by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    The irony of it is that the guy that designed the water pump system for the Big Easy had/has a sail boat in his front yard.

  39. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    I hear that the current EPA secretary screams it while pleasuring himself.

  40. Re:Louisiana is one big sinkhole by hey! · · Score: 1

    It's time to start considering how much money should be thrown into Louisiana at this point just to buy a little extra time, and if instead we should be considering moving people out of the state altogether.

    True, but I see a hitch: exactly how are we going to do this considering? In particular who will make the decision to pull the trigger. Someone is going to have to make the decision to put Louisiana out of its misery if you're going to be "moving people out of the state". Or by "moving people out of state" do you mean letting nature take its course and generating millions of environmental refugees.

    I see megaengineering projects in our future -- not because they make sense, but because the political decision to face the consequences is too hard. In part the LA situation is the result of past megaprojects to contain flooding, which is what deposited the soil in coastal LA in the first place. What's more these megaprojects will likewise have an exclusively short-term focus, because facing long-term trends are too politically difficult. Should the project factor in IPCC sea level rise projections? Hah! Good luck with that.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  41. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by LifesABeach · · Score: 1

    Consider the reality of it. Those that have the resources to effectively cause a solution are beating the drum loudest for humanity it ignore the issue of raising sea levels and those human actions that cause it. So you've got to ask yourself some serious questions. One such question is, "What would the sea level be if both polar caps and Greenland melted?"

  42. In other news... by 101percent · · Score: 1

    Elon Musk declares state of emergency over disappearing hairline.

  43. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

    So we, the citizens, own the air. And the government will tax corporations that put CO2 and other pollutants into our air. Then, those corporations will raise their prices to cover the cost of the tax.

    So we, the citizens who own the air, will be paying to have our air polluted. ...........!

    This is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever heard of.

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  44. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by hey! · · Score: 2

    Well, with a carbon tax the government would set the taxation rate, and it would be like any other tax... and that's the problem with carbon taxes: regulatory capture. In the US people who pay a lot of taxes have outsized influence on tax policy.

    This is why some environmentalists prefer cap and trade. In that system the government sets limits based on overall carbon emission goals. You'd first try to meet those caps by developing emission reduction technology, and if you reduced more than necessary you could sell the credit for the extra reduction to someone who was having trouble meeting their cap at a price mutually agreed upon without regulatory oversight. In other words the market would determine carbon credit trading prices.

    The economic advantage of this system over carbon taxation is that it is more flexible. Imagine that an overall reduction of, say, 50% in CO2 emissions is technologically feasible, but that doesn't mean every industry can feasibly achieve 50%. Under cap and trade if the airlines have trouble meeting their cap they could buy credits from the industries that can find ways that will save more than 50%.

    This leads to the environmental benefit: more carbon reduction. You can tell the airlines they've got to reduce CO2 by 50% but they physically can't do it, they can't. But if the electricity generators could cut their carbon by 75%, they aren't going to do so unless they have a financial reason -- either carbon taxes or the ability to sell the extra reduction. Cap and trade has the same effect as carbon taxes, but it uses a carrot and stick approach.

    This leads to the political benefit: carbon reduction will be someone's rice bowl. In a system where money talks loudest, that's important.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  45. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by thegarbz · · Score: 1

    Citizens do.

    Oh? Where is that written down? I mean sure it's implied, but where is the legal document declaring the air the property of the citizens. Also how much do they get? What control is legally given to us over it? If someone passes wind in an elevator can we hold them legally liable?

  46. Claim they are Salt Water Mexicans by tekrat · · Score: 1

    And only THEN will Trump allow you to build a wall.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
  47. Re: Meh. What is science but a guess by sl3xd · · Score: 1

    some people are beyond the reach of argument and reason. They will NEVER change their belief.

    That's a contemptible attitude. Considering human being a lost cause because you're not interested in accommodating their humanity is abhorrent.

    It's entirely possible to promote science while respecting other people's religions, even for subjects like evolution. I've seen it done superbly by professors who took the time to understand their students, and were able to show they actually cared about the student and their humanity.

    The bottom line is we're all part of the human family, and denying the humanity of another - including their religious beliefs - is the essence of evil.

    It's very practical to promote science to everyone. As with most things,getting half of the work done is easy. The other half is not as easy, but no less important.

    --
    -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  48. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    Why don't we deal with what scientists, rather than you going off on tangents about "alarmists" and seeming to accept the inevitability that which we could change. It's almost as if you don't actually want to deal with the science or the repercussions of human activities, but would rather play some pointless rhetorical game. I'll state right here that I don't give a fuck what Al Gore or Greenpeace says. They are not sources of information I go to, so throwing out what they say (or what you claim they say, since I don't recall any report that Al Gore said all the coast lines would be underwater by 2017) doesn't mean fuck all to me.

    Yes, things change. Eventually the house you're living in will fall down. So I guess it's okay if I come and light in on fire, right?

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  49. Re:News for nerds? by sunderland56 · · Score: 1

    Came here to say just this. "News for Nerds, news that matters".....

      - it's not really news; since the same thing is happening all over the planet and has been for many years

      - it's not for nerds, it's for everyone; and besides, I'm doubtful that there are any nerds in Louisiana

      - it doesn't really matter *that* much; certainly it does matter some, but hey, it's Louisiana

    Now if the same thing was being reported in London or NYC or LA or SF or Tokyo..... well then yeah, it's slashdot worthy. Of course it *is* happening in all of those places; but for some unknown reason people are concerned about Louisiana.

  50. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by radarskiy · · Score: 1

    "those corporations will raise their prices"

    You have assumed that the amount of pollutants emitted is immutable.

    If a corporation merely raises prices to exactly cover the taxation, they sell fewer units and have lower earnings without reducing pollution.

    If they reduce the pollution at a lower cost than the tax rate for the pollution, this creates a smaller shift in the supply curve, creates a market incentive for advancement in pollution reduction for their specific processes, and reduces their specific pollution.

    If pollution credits can be traded, this creates a smaller shift in the supply curve, creates a market incentive for advancement in pollution reduction for every process, and reduces pollution broadly.

    Meanwhile you present no method for dealing with external costs at all.

  51. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by reanjr · · Score: 1

    No one has to set prices. You simply set emission standards by granting a certain number of carbon credits which can be spent to pollute. The price is determined by free trade of said credits.

    Still a dumb idea, because using markets to solve environmental issues (especially global ones) is terribly inefficient and subject to abuse.

    We COULD solve water quality issues with no regulation on pollutants, but by slicing up the waterways with private rights. Most people rightly see this as a horrible idea that only works on paper.

    For some reason, those people seem to think it will work for carbon, though.

  52. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    yes, but their are several issues with 'carbon taxes'.
    1) we really need to apply it to GOODS/Service based on where the worst part/service comes from. This way, it involves ALL nations.
    2) we need a standard approach to measuring CO2. The ideal way is to use Japan's new CO2 sat, along with OCO-3, that trump just grounded. With these 2, we can get absolute numbers and can see CO2 moving IN and OUT of an area.
    3) need a better form of normalization. Considering that ppl in general do NOT make the choies on emissions, then this should be tied to emissions / $GDP. That way, businesses and govs will work together in their local area to drop their emissions. Otherwise, as taxes go up on an area, the businesses will leave.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  53. Re: Meh. What is science but a guess by sl3xd · · Score: 1

    There is a significant difference between labeling a behavior versus labeling a person.

    I have no problems with describing a behavior as contemptible; there's nothing hypocritical in that. How any reader decides to apply it to themselves is their own problem, not mine.

    Moreover your initial response is that people were beyond help, which is quite different than and your most recent response — that consider it a waste of effort. The first implies impossibility, the other that you're not willing to spend the effort. They are very different attitudes.

    I clearly diffe in opinionr: I believe in a democracy, its vitally important to help everyone understand that science is a process to understand the world, and that understanding the world helps us make better decisions.

    Alienating people en masse is never wise in a democracy, and a little extra effort can make all the difference for all of humanity

    --
    -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  54. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by bestweasel · · Score: 1

    The Dutch managed it pretty well, centuries ago. Would there be any objections from Louisianans to having huge dykes in their state? Call them walls and tell Trump they'll keep out Mexican waves and he'll pay for them (well, use other people's taxes to pay for them).

  55. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Dread_ed · · Score: 1

    You seem wise. My post was in half-jest. An oversimplification based on the presupposition that government and corporations will co-create this tax system and do so in a way that it favorable to them, not the people.

    I would ask you this: How do you reconcile instituting an entirely new tax scheme when we already have regulatory bodies in place that monitor and control the means of production in this country?

    Meaning, why would it be beneficial to create an entirely new tax system when you can achieve the same end result (lower pollution) by changing regulations for these industries?

    I am very wary of giving our coporatist government the impetus and support required to create a new tax system. I have serious doubts that it would be implemented in a way that truly benefits the people of the country. I can see the undue influence of our political system's sponsors and lobbyists creating something that does not work as advertised and our elected officials telling us "you will need to pass it to see what is in it," yet again. Then, once it is passed and we start to see the poor results and broken promises hearing "nobody knew that energy policy could be so complicated."

    Am I just too distrusting? Do you have faith that the US government would implement a sweeping new taxation policy in a way that doesn't end up fleecing the US electorate?

    --
    When the only tool you have is a claw hammer every problem starts to look like the back of someone's skull.
  56. They need to move inland already. by Jastiv · · Score: 1

    People should have moved inland already. We aren't more powerful than the sea. Here is a relevant web cartoon I made from 2006. http://jastiv.keenspace.com/d/...

  57. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by radarskiy · · Score: 1

    Pollution of a given type is locally fungible. If two factories next to each other are emitting the same pollutant, you can't really tell the difference in origin. However, if the factories create that pollutant as an output of different processes, the costs of reducing the pollutants can be wildly different. As reduction of the total pollutants is the actual public policy goal, that public policy should focus on maximizing that total without overspecifying what the components are.

    This method also includes several other good economic ideas, such as: prices are a means to compare dissimilar things; and absent a natural market, e.g. when dealing with external costs, you can create an artificial market via tradeable credits or taxes to take advantage of the optimization powers of markets.

    Also, it allows you to say "market" a lot when selling a government policy, and say "public policy" a lot when selling a market. ;-)

  58. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by YouGotTobeKidding · · Score: 1

    The Dutch 'managed it' by having incredibly small cities.. and building on stilts. Take a look at a map of say New Orleans. Compared it to modern NO... and it is obvious what has happened. We drained swamps, built land-level buildings (some with even below ground basements) and wonder why those 'newly reclaimed land' flood costing billions in damage.

  59. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Agripa · · Score: 1

    1) So who sets the prices? Any governmental price controls on any commodity (which carbon credits are) means there is no free market involvement.

    1a) If the government sets prices, it is nothing more than a de facto regulatory scheme dressed up as commodity.

    But without the complexity of the alternatives, the opportunities for rent seeking are limited although this benefit is the very thing which makes this solution unattractive to politicians; they are all about rent seeking. Pigloviant taxes are a way to account for negative externalities and one of the few places where government can play a constructive role.

    2) Enforcement? Good luck with that.

    Gasoline taxes? Good luck with that.

    3) What's to keep government from requiring individuals (in addition to businesses) to buy these things, as a form of consumption tax?

    What prevents the government from doing that now?

    A carbon tax is exactly that; a tax on fossil carbon which will become carbon dioxide. It only has to be be taxed once in the production and consumption cycle.

    4) I thought we all got out of the business of selling indulgences back when Martin Luther showed up?

    Most of our taxes are effectively indulgences. Why would you think otherwise?

    What is the difference between a sin tax and any other tax? Nothing, there is no difference. The government taxes productivity, savings, income, profits, and cigarettes because it considers them all to be bad.

  60. Re: Louisiana is one big sinkhole by Agripa · · Score: 1

    Government doesn't actually have to set the price. They just cap the availability and an auction process sets the price. Cap and trade ends up being more flexible and responsive to market conditions than a flat rate pollution tax.

    \

    And most importantly, cap and trade allows for unlimited opportunities for rent seeking.

    The government can manipulate the auction results via supply or reserve tranches of credits, (effectively at cheaper prices) for some nationally important industries or exempt small emitters (like you and your car) while requiring large emitters like an airline or rail conglomerate or a electrical utility to purchase the credits each year.

    Exaclty, the advantage of cap and trade to facilitate rent seeking is what makes a Pigloviant tax on fossil carbon politically infeasible. A carbon tax is not corruptible enough.

  61. My take is... by martinfb · · Score: 1

    My take is:
    1) Smart move by the gov to improve Fed response to obvious urgent needs.
    2) Global warming is a natural cycle here on Earth.
    3) Based on all the research I have seen, global climate change (including warming) IS, in apparent fact, ACCELERATED by mankind's careless spewing.
    4) Mankind would be prudent to get fully active on remediation ASAP.
    5) Coastal dwellers need to understand, and accept responsibility for, choosing to live in such challenging locations.
    6) Politicians need to take an extensive aptitude test prior to even running for office so as to prove that they have a grasp of how to UNDERSTAND issues, especially those that are out of their regular scope of education.
    7) MONEY needs to be removed from all legislative and political endeavors (laws, elections, etc...); so as to allow PERTINENT FACTS to rule our decisions.
    8) Corporations need to have their power severely curbed. Their ability to control anything at any capacity of more than ONE individual threatens any and most all of (us).

    --


    Self-importance and self-indulgence is the root of ALL evil.
  62. Hark! Sounds like pigeon wings... by BoogieChile · · Score: 1

    And I think a little whirlwind-reaping won't be far behind.