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Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools? (backchannel.com)
mirandakatz writes: David Molina was finishing up his 12-year time in the army when he started teaching himself to code, and started to think that he might like to pursue it professionally once his service was done. But with a wife and family, he couldn't dedicate the four years he'd need to get an undergraduate degree in computer science -- and the GI Bill, he learned, won't cover accelerated programs like code schools. So he started an organization dedicated to changing that. Operation Code is lobbying politicians to allow vets to attend code schools through the GI Bill and prepare themselves for the sorts of stable, middle-class jobs that have come to be called "blue-collar coding." Molina sees it as a serious failing that the GI Bill will cover myriad vocational programs, but not those that can prepare veterans for one of the fastest-growing industries in existence.
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
No. New schools, even if they're "coding schools" still need to go through the normal procedures to attain recognition that they are a real school.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools scamming veterans. They offer fairly useless courses and the government pays.
Of course it would be good for veterans to learn coding but it should be a properly accredited school. It looks like there is a mechanism in place to properly vet (sic) schools and it should be followed.
Pizza and beer do not necessarily make a good school.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
As a taxpayer, how is that my fault? I'm not paying for him to fix his life choices.
to do whatever they want, whenever they want.
REMFs should have to get a real job like everyone else.
The GI bill covers plenty of stuff. We can't afford to keep expanding every program each time people want more bennies
No.
"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
If you don't like 'Merica you can just GET OUT.
Does going to a "coding school" actually let you work as a qualified professional? Very, very unlikely. They might as well be offering 6-week brain surgery school.
Should veterans be shoehorned into "tech" alongside unqualified minorities, self-styled feminists, BA grads posing as developers and every other special group that can't actually code?
NO.
I've had coworkers that were veterans and they got their masters degrees while in the military. There are apparently some really good C.S. programs like UMD that bend over backwards to accommodate their schedule and ensure credits transfer.
We all saw how well that worked out.
Better means to spend tax money than waste it on a border wall or more nukes!
How about the battle with people who think plurals are formed with an apostrophe?
vet's? god's? Seriously? Do you have a brain tumor or gunshot to the head?
First we need a "coding school" that is worth a damn. For the rest of this post I am going to say programming and not coding. I hate that word. I should also say some of the best programmers I've met never went to college. If such a program is to be instituted, It's going to have to be designed by the likes of Google, Canonical, and even Microsoft. This would also have to involve companies around the nation bringing in veterans for internships while they go over self-paced curriculum. Our veterans deserve a whole hell of a lot more than that though. The need to have the opportunity to be taught entrepreneurial skills and more. Now let's not forget about fixing the VA.
I get it, our country is broke. But if we could bring industry directly on board, that could mitigate a lot of government spending for these things. Next we need to pass a law that requires congressmen to actually read the bills they pass. I am tired of hearing about congressmen voting for something and then having remorse because they never actually read the proposal. Maybe then we could cut some government spending and fix the VA.
Our men and women in the armed forces deserve a lot, especially more respect. So yeah, start by recruiting major industry and well go from there.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Since the majority of coding is outsourced to India and China, they might as well teach them how to shoe a horse. At least that cannot be done remotely.
Nobody said it was YOUR fault. This man served 12 years. He deserves a lot more than what he gets, but that's another convo for later.
Why do Americans apparently feel such a massive debt of gratitude is appropriate for ALL military vets?
Apart from anything else, they chose the job.
Where's the recognition for the police or firefighters or others who clearly face far more danger in 1 day than the average so-called vet who spent their entire enlistment (which could be as small as 2 years) in some stateside base nowhere near any actual danger?
Want a Job in Silicon Valley? Keep Away From Coding Schools: https://www.bloomberg.com/news... This isn't the whole story, of course, because there are good schools, and not all jobs are in Silicon Valley. But once the government starts providing tuition for these places, lots of these "coding schools" with low quality and high tuition will pop up everywhere.
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive. The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan to buy a house in San Jose, one of the most expensive housing markets in the world, and over the life of the loan I will get about $200k in taxpayer funded subsidies, which I am happy to accept but certainly don't "need". Yet many veterans living in trailer parks don't have the ability or knowledge to benefit from the same program.
In many ways, veterans are just another special interest group, with a huge voting block to back them up. It is difficult for politicians to resist their demands because they don't want attack ads claiming they "don't care about vets".
If it were regulated closely, and the government payouts were conditional on the students having relevant employment 1-2 years after graduation.
Hey, it's better than supporting these guys on welfare. However, financial support for vets obtaining a real college degree (with reading/writing/math/history, along with optional coding) would be much better.
Not until *every* U.S. resident has access to such free education. We give these idiots enough already. We need to provide free educational services to everyone, regardless of what their past employment was.
if you can't learn to code on your own you can't learn to code. This is not an industry where you can learn some skill and be done. Coders are constantly retraining themselves to handle new technologies. Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Disappointed to see this comment down-voted. This was exactly my reaction upon reading the comment as well, even though I agree with it. Bloody ACs and their poor education! If only there was some kind of free education we could give them...
he could have gotten a nice fat retirement check the rest of his life
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
As stated in the summary the gov't does pay for these schools and "the issue is quality". Or is it? Is our protagonist asserting these schools are unfairly being evaluated as colleges when they're essentially vocational schools focused on what's apparently become a blue collar vocation?
This man had a job for 12 years. He already got paid more than he deserves for it, we shouldn't pay for his school too.
And it was his poor life choice to get married and have kids before getting an education. I'm all about some kind of social safety net for idiots like that, but let's not pretend that he deserves to get anything other than what any citizen would get.
The idea of giving veterans a leg up is hardly new, and in and of itself I can't imagine why it would be controversial. Now whether it should just be making more educational opportunities available, or trying to target specific occupations is a matter of debate.
As I sidenote, many years ago, at the dawn of my professional IT career, I installed and maintained POS software that had been developed by a fellow who got his start in programming via GI benefits after his tour of duty in Vietnam. He did pretty darned well for himself, and the last I had heard he'd sold his company for a pretty tidy sum. Now that is admittedly anecdotal, but it does suggest there are good sound benefits to help vets find career opportunities.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
He was paid wages for hose 12 years. He got *exactly* what he deserves.
Yeah, they want unreasonable things like treatment for medical conditions caused by their service, or the government to live up to the promises made when they signed up. People sign up under the promise of the GI Bill and other benefits, only to see them harder to get than promised.
Learn to love Alaska
See subject: That's what a G.I. bill's all about - letting soldiers who are smart enough to take advantage of it better their life!
* I admire the guys that DO take advantage of it in fact...
APK
P.S.=> I have NO problem w/ that - it's the RIGHT thing to do (they were told their jobs would be here after the wars - heh, they shipped jobs off to nations the USA's fought before instead - making many soldiers cops (a good thing imo) instead of giving them back jobs they had pre-war))... apk
No, it's still worth saying.
Fuck the veterans. Did they or did they not get paid? Because I'm pretty sure being stupid enough to get a job in the army is still getting a job. There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
Part of the benefits package that they have contracted too be paid is additional education during and after service. A major point of the article is that it might have broader societal advantages if that educational benefit could be used on coder schools.
Veterans benefits was a throwback to a time when service wasn't voluntary. Then, because VA is not "military spending", the veterans had all the benefits separated, inflated, and are now a political, not practical, issue. VA loans, near guaranteed employment (many places have overt veteran preference, and it's illegal for the US government to hire a person to a job if there's a less qualified veteran that meets the minimums). The benefits are a lure to get people in. Because the pay is low (compared to salary in the private sector), mainly because the military doesn't include the benefits (uniforms provided, housing provided, vehicles, transportation, recreation, and other things provided). So $20k in the military would be like 40-60k in the private sector. But, since that's not well advertised, the recruiters focus on your "exit bonus" of the GI Bill, and other benefits. If the VA benefits weren't there, the recruits would reduce.
There are abuses on both sides. Those that get good benefits they didn't "need", and those who need a benefit that is provided in some form, but not in the form they need (education for this guy, housing for the homeless vets).
Learn to love Alaska
Most people require more structure. What site should you start with? What's a good end goal?
Yes, you can learn everything "college" (or coding school) will teach you from buying last year's texts at 10% of the price, and reading them yourself. But if that's as effective, why aren't more people doing it?
Learn to love Alaska
Like all the Conservitards who, for the last eight years, said life with Obama as president was living hell for them? The way they left?
So no. We're staying. We have our own vision of what makes American great. And we're going to work on rebuilding that America after we kick Twitler out.
Twitler bragged that the election was rigged. And the Replicans all the sudden don't seem so interested in investigating Russian interference. Go figure. Because if they did, and they found out the outcome was affected, that would paint this administration in an even worse light than it already is.
When the elections aren't rigged, and the majority has its say again, we'll have to rebuild everything that Twitler and the Republicans are currently in the process of tearing down.
So again, We're not getting out. This is our America too. We're staying. Get over it. Then you'll have had plenty of practice at "getting over it." And you'll have another chance to leave if you don't like it.
In particular for code but I think it would also benefit all ares of study I think no matter what you use the GI bill for you should be required to pass aptitude requirements to be sure you are actually suited to learning that skill and advised properly. But they can't just be paper tests but rather tests in addition to counselors that can provide exceptions to the tests. The counselors are then reviewed later to see if their exceptions were justified.
Not everyone is suited for coding. It's a special aptitude for something quite boring.
I'd say less than 3 percent of the population.
Maybe 20% for something like network engineering.
A sysadmin falls between the two and requires somewhat better social skills.
The benefits are a lure to get people in.
I wonder how effective that is. I enlisted in the Marines on my 18th birthday, and I had never heard of any benefits (and in general, had no idea what I was signing up for). Maybe the more brain-oriented branches (AF, Navy) are different, but I never heard any Marine say he enlisted to pay for college, or to get a home loan.
No, only nationally, recognized, accredited schools that impart real, nationally, recognized, degrees. You know - a BS, BA, one of those. Avoid any AA stuff.
Veterans are getting screwed at places with 'online' degrees that aren't worth anything.
They have less than 10% completion rates and leave our veterans with nothing but debt.
Hint - if they advertise on TV and it isn't during the game their team is playing in, run away.
Go to a community college or other state institution of higher learning to not get screwed. Or travel to India and use their 4th tier colleges to get a degree. At least there you won't have debt or unexpected expectations. This isn't to say that their tier-1 schools aren't excellent, but every country has multiple layers + bottom feeders. Even at a bad school in India, you'd gain the international experiences which will be worth as much as any degree after living there 4 yrs.
Coding boot camps don't work for average people. I've had 5 day intensive training a few times. Some of the experts in my team got a bunch out of those, but I, being average, didn't. It was all I could do just to copy/paste the exercises to keep up. Given, it was a class on a cross-platform development tool and I was still learning Unix at the time, to perhaps it wasn't fair.
Also have done immersion language training. Spent 3 weeks learning Spanish overseas. Each week is almost like a full semester class in college. My brain hurt after the 4 hours of class time. Our brains need time to organize things with some rest between. For me, there wasn't sufficient brain rest.
No to the boot camps. Everyone WANTS to become an expert in 5 days, but that really isn't the way these things work. In 5 days, you are just a little above noob-level, with a $2K-5K price tag? Take the class at the community college for $200. Much better use of your time.
Avoid the bottom feeders.
I'm 52 and feel totally burnt out. I have been worked like a mule while steadily seeing my paychecks dwindle in value. In the 80, I drove a new Porsche, now I drive a shitty 1998 Jeep. Relearn your job constantly and be in a constant crunch. Get zero respect from your juniors and manager even though you save their butts constantly.
I would not wish a software engineer career on anyone... unless you don't really like to make software. Then I guess its OK. Get in a few years, avoid hard and quality demanding tasks and manoeuvre to management. That is the way to make money and gain respect in the majority of the software world.
Due to the growing infrastructure supporting the utilization (or if you are real engineer the misuse) of offshore coders, even formerly high rate positions are dropping to $25 per hour. Not much better than the proposed $15 per hour minimum wage for counter service jobs
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive.
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector, and volunteering is more noble than otherwise. I've never served in the military, and appreciate that you and others volunteered to risk you life for the country and its people - or for others elsewhere. I have no problem with affording some of my tax dollars to help express that appreciation, even after you separate from service.
The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan ... which I am happy to accept but certainly don't "need". Yet many veterans living in trailer parks don't have the ability or knowledge to benefit from the same program.
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities to learn regular-world life skills so they could better benefit from these veterans' programs. The rest of us get to learn these thing while we're young and starting out, while you're learning to defend us. Giving you some opportunity to catch up with the rest of us seems reasonable.
Of course, there will always be those you can take out of the trailer park, but can't take the trailer park out of them. (Said as someone who lived in one my first year of college, but am now 54 and a senior software developer at a large defense contractor.)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
The recruitment process now has pamphlets of the benefits. Lines them up and sums them up, makes it sound like a $200k bonus for signing. At least when I last saw, around the time of the first Gulf War.
Learn to love Alaska
Based on the tight budgets we already face and will be facing if the huge tax cuts go through: NO
Why?
Military service is voluntary. Sure, duties assigned are risky at times. But the fact is, people sign up on their own and they already receive more benefits than the average person ever receives: job hiring advantages, discounts on loans and mortgages, VA healthcare (be it good or bad, its also free!), and numerous other perks.
If their current education benefits (whatever colleges are covered) aren't covering "coding" at normal higher education facilities, then perhaps they aren't really all that competitive enough to get into decent degree programs to begin with. On one hand, some may say "these aren't college folks" and on the other I can say "they also aren't royalty and the rest of us shouldn't be expected to treat them as such their entire lives ... let them pay their way like the rest of us are expected to!" The last thing we need is even more IT workers who are half trained "military style," who get on the job and have no clue how to really perform their IT duties because they went through some crash course. I've had to train and work with enough "certified at XYZ" vets to know that despite the requirement to give preference to their hiring, they aren't always the right folks to be on IT jobs ... clearances and all the military gibberish about "obeys orders without questioning and can shine his shoes" mean nothing when they don't have the experience to do their assigned tasks, use critical thinking skills to accurately (no military bias needed thanks) assess a situation, or respond ... you can't crash course those things, they come from the same places the rest of us had to learn them, and that is *NOT* from handing them yet another "certification."
I hate to say this; but, after you work out all the benefits, the pay in the military is significantly more than most of the people, in the military, would receive in the private sector.
How do you know that Mr low ID didn't also serve in the military? Are you making assumptions?
So you think vets deserve an entitlement – GI bill paid education – on top of the salary they earned while serving? Did somebody twist Mr Ex Vet's arm to enlist? He knew what the compensation package was when he enlisted and he took it.
You think military service isn't a job? You get up five days a week, drive to "the office", put in your eight hours of work, stop on the drive home and get a six pack for the weekend? That is what a lot of our military does, when they're not deployed, and even when they are deployed it's a pretty apt description of what they do. That sounds like a job to me.
And why didn't Mr Ex Vet who spent 12 years take night courses at the on-base university satellite while he had tuition reimbursement? He could have had his degree by the time he got out. (Hint: I got my degree taking night courses after working eight hour days.)
Our vets certainly deserve to be treated well during and after their service, But I don't understand this whole entitlement thing. And you'd probably call me a libtard. Paul Ryan is running around saying let's dismantle Social Security because it's an entitlement (it's not) and you probably support that. Bat at the same time you think vets are entitled to something above an beyond the pay they received during their service? There's another name for people like you. It starts with the letter H and ends with ypocrite.
I teach at a college that is a magnet for vets. I do the 200 level courses. Vets have some that are good; most suck at it. Somebody is pushing them into computers in large numbers.
1) A lot of vets are stupid. I'm not talking about injuries, they signed up for the military out of high school because they were stupid. Some are foolish teens and grow up others are stupid and you don't grow out of that. Problem solving is a central part of it, not a lot of problem solving in the military. Plus side, dealing with really stupid organizational problems is something the military is great for acclimatizing people for the world of Dilbert.
2) Hands-on real world type classes (which I specialize in) are more like an internship with guided work to develop skill level. This causes troubles. Emotional issues with stress that haven't been fully treated start to surface. The stress involved in development creates problems for them. Frustration etc. Development is a stressful job for most people; at minimum, it is at the beginning. High number of them give up early without a lot of motivational support.
3) always hard working but totally not interested. it's just a job. it is like they are forced to do something horrible and are doing it because they have to... like military stuff. but they do not like it. that kind of situation repeated. problem is fostering curiosity and exploring to figure problems out rather than just getting it done quickly and out of the way. it's a "get it over with" attitude, when doing it well or trying alternatives, learning a bit about it-- are not done. this is generally a problem for short-attention span lazy millennials too. However, the older vet students one would hope would be better. they are not.
4) ALL vets are hard workers. but a serious class will not reward you on hard work alone. A is not for effort. Used to be multiple choice exams in programming would get you fired. not anymore. sad. funnel everybody into the college system which is responding more like a business free market and you get a BS system which caters to "customers" when a real college doesn't give a fuck what the customers want. I'm still old school. If you don't like it go to a diploma mill and you'll be as good as somebody who learned Kung Fu from a book... my students will easily kick your ass. They don't get a black belt from me unless they can hold their own - not because they put in 20 hours per week.
Listen here Mr low ID, the reason you are able to have the freedoms you have today is because of vets.
Unless you're in your 80's, you aren't a vet that actually protected my freedom. You're a mercenary that does the bidding of the political elite. You skirt the Constitution by acting outside of our nation's borders to attack people in order to protect business interests in the world.
You're the hammer for a corrupt empire. You do not preserve our freedom. You do not defend the righteous.
Even if that were true (in some cases it is, in some it isn't, and it NEVER should be) the article's point is still wrong.
For-profit schools are a scam. Coder schools are a scam. There are almost no code monkey jobs in this country, they were outsourced years ago. If you don't have a CS or computer engineering degree or are a self-starting rockstar coder, you don't have a job writing software in the US. If you need to go to a for-profit school to learn how to code, you aren't employable writing software.
s/too/to/
"Get everybody to code" Is basically the kale of government spending right now. It's good and trendy and no one's really sure why.
In practical terms, there's nothing that really prevents veterans from learning to code through normal means.
Yeah, WWII vets, I salute my cap to you. I'll also acknowledge Korean and Vietnam vets because they were forced into it. Every war after has been utterly pointless and would not have taken my "freedoms" had it not happened. If this guy did not serve, my freedoms would be unaffected.
I respect people that serve, even though most of them do it because they're barely got through high school and have nothing better to do. I'm fine with them getting applause, and early plane boarding, a free meal, etc. But I'm not rolling out the red carpet because he doesn't have the time for school. Deal with it. We've all got problems.
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector
You imagine wrong. For an 18 year old high school graduate, the pay is pretty good. When you add in basic necessities that are provided for free (food, housing, ammunition), it is a pretty good deal
... and volunteering is more noble than otherwise.
My reasons for joining had nothing to do with being "noble" or "serving my country" or any of that crap. It was a testosterone driven desire for adventure. I wanted to jump out of airplanes, ride in helicopters, and go see the world (Yes, I did all of those things as a Marine).
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities ...
Veterans benefits, like any other entitlement, will always be twisted toward those that can organize, manipulate the system, and contribute to politicians, ... in other words successful people that don't really need the benefits.
Giving you some opportunity to catch up with the rest of us seems reasonable.
Except that we don't need to "catch up". According to the DOL, veterans are doing better than average in median income.
4 years is to long but the tech schools that are not in the 2 or 4 system need some over site.
lanwanprofessional is one where they are not very clear on what is really costs and they have the go hear and get job that pays X just like how ITT and others did it.
The days of becoming a programmer with no education are well behind us. As someone who dropped out of high school and ended up going to college after getting rejected constantly, I have little sympathy for this guy. I spent the time in school. I worked part time web design/development gigs with small businesses to pay the rent. It sucked, but it can be done.
Learning how to code and how to write good software are two very different things. We reject applicants all the time that have no understanding of basic design patterns, data structures, etc. We've interviewed "experienced" .NET developers with no clue what they're doing. We've also interviewed students who are nearing graduation. Even if you do go to a university with a decent reputation, it doesn't mean you have any skills, but you at least have heard of data structures.
CS education is a joke and encouraging a flood of cheap, unskilled coding monkeys isn't going to make it any better.
The government should stay out of the vets business. Once a vet leaves the service, they government should fulfill exactly it's mandatory obligations at the time the either the vet signed up, or additional obligations based on reenlistment contract/policies.
Since vets tend to vote republican/libertarian in much larger numbers than democrat/socialist this seems to be the appropriate policy for less government interference in their lives.
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
As a current employee at the local government level I can't get training for my job. So I should pay for my own training AND subzidize teaching veterans the skills to replace me at my job?
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
Okay, but I don't think there is any catching up to do. I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world, I had learned to speak some Japanese and Tagalog, and even more Mandarin (and eventually married a Chinese girl), and that opened a lot of opportunities in business and high-tech, especially as so much of the world's economy has shifted to Asia.
If you want to pay higher taxes to subsidize the mortgage on my McMansion in San Jose, I am not going to refuse the money, but I certainly don't need it, and veterans in general don't need it anymore than anyone else.
The youngest World War II veterans are turning 90 now.
There aren't many veterans on Slashdot who ever protected any American's freedom.
There aren't many veterans still alive at all who ever protected any American's freedom.
The rest of them? Maybe we need to stop using the word "veteran" for them at all.
How about calling them what they are, former military-industrial complex employees?
If you need more structure in your education, code monkey almost certainly isn't a good career choice for you.
You're going to get an education more suited to writing good code from a philosophy major than you are from a coding school.
The only vets you have to worry about are the ones who carry a loaded finger gun on the bus and telling themselves, "Never surrender! Never give up!"
Seriously, America needs an assortment of educated ppl. Not just white collar, but blue collar.
As such, we need to make community colleges free (based on grades), not just to vets, but those that have graduated recently, as well as those that were laid off.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Tax payers do. All of it.
But, if you want to ask me if veterans should be taken a care of, using our tax dollars? Damned straight they should.
"Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools?"
Only if veterans of Russian Army.
Dave Barnes 9 breweries within walking distance of my house
The point of the coding school cannot be to learn how to code to a professional standard, because that takes years no matter how you approach it -- it's why we have the concept of a junior developer. The point of the coding school must be to learn how to learn how to program.
Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Your attitude is crap, and this statement is just as applicable to any coding school attendee. Do you imagine that it takes no time or money to attend those?
Personally I'm not in a hurry to judge people for their choices, or to say that people can't be programmers. Yes, this profession requires a lot of continuing education. I don't see why this should be more concerning to the boot camp grad than the CS grad.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
First we need a "coding school" that is worth a damn. For the rest of this post I am going to say programming and not coding.
No, these people are certainly turning out coders and not programmers. They will know git and unit testing, but they won't know Knuth or Turing from a hole in the ground.
If such a program is to be instituted, It's going to have to be designed by the likes of Google, Canonical, and even Microsoft.
The industry is not interested in training its own. Otherwise there wouldn't need to be these programs. But I'm taking the words "self paced" and "internship" to mean that you haven't seriously thought about this issue. Internships are not replacements for classroom instruction, and getting someone from being a complete novice to the point where it's even worth it to pair them with a more senior dev takes quite a lot of instruction.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I disagree. The skill being taught is the ability to learn programming. I'm attending a coding academy at the moment (for reasons which are becoming increasingly obscure) and no one could possibly mistake the curriculum for a complete education, but unfortunately there's essentially no place offering anything better. CS grads can probably be trusted to have learned either Java, Python, or perhaps Javascript. They can probably discuss a bit about algorithmic complexity and may know something about compilers, parsers, and lexers. They may know something about OS design or circuit design. They may or may not have learned anything about source control. Unit testing is less likely. The actual day-to-day practice of programming will be pretty obscure. I'm betting that the average coding school graduate will have a much better handle on whether they have an affinity for programming than your average CS grad, and if there are "skills needed to succeed" they're not going to be taught at either place.
We likely need a further bridge between the coding school and the real world (some sort of apprenticeship, say), but providing these services is pretty expensive. The industry isn't stepping up. The private sector is finding it difficult (from conversations and observing a few schools go under). Does government have a role to play here?
To answer my own rhetorical question to some degree, the DoL is actually running a study to see if it's worthwhile to give veterans and people who suffered from the 2008 crash (career-wise) grants to attend coding school. It's called Reboot Northwest. So, whilst we argue, others are gathering data, but there are of course both philosophical and practical matters at stake.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
If you enlisted at 18 giving you 20 years. Less than 20 years nada. Most US retirement programs require 55+ or a age+service threshhold.
More useful than self study
But schools like Phoenix etc, are for profit pyramid schemes. Start at a community college, do well get scholarships, and grants. After that the GI Bill is just a nice, but unnecessary item.
Probably because, they don't know, how to use commas, either.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't think the veterans referred to in TFA are ex-members of the Punjab Fusliers.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Shit, folks, the federal government can't even run its veterans' hospitals well. And you want to give it more to screw up?
When they've gotten the hang of that existing responsibility, then it might make sense to expand their responsibilities. Not before.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world,
A bit off topic... I agreed to your statement here. Though, I would add that it is not just military experience, but rather any real life experience would give a head start in college education. Simply go directly from high school to college isn't for most people. Majority of them should at least come out of school and work in order to see what the real world is. Then they should get some ideas about what they are expecting before they go back to take higher education. The real world experience will help them understand how to study and what to look for in the future from the education.
Sure, train them for a job that is being frequently outsourced to the 3rd world.
Then re-train them again for whatever is job fashionable. Repeat until money is exhausted.
We need trade schools to teach skills that cant be so easily outsourced. Maybe Industrial Robot Repair,
> He was paid wages for hose 12 years. He got *exactly* what he deserves.
He gave up the best young years of his life to defend your freedom while you were getting your education. Now that he's done, he should be able to get his education. Even if he got married during his young years, as you might have done.
Another point -- whether or not he had to fight in a war to defend your freedom is beyond his control. What he did is volunteer to be trained and serve, and even fight and die for your and my freedom. If a genuine threat to our nation emerged, or even outright war, he would be the first one fighting. He did a lot more than just have a job. He put his life at some jeopardy in the event that he is ordered to go to war -- whether justified or not.
If he wants to get married at a young age, just as you might, why should he be denied that? Why should it work against him once he gets out of the military and now wants the opportunity to get an education -- which was a benefit promised when he signed up. He chose to delay his education in order to serve his country.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Scholarships for vocational programs is one of the most useful and biggest payoff services that a government can provide. And coding schools can be extremely inexpensive as they can be largely automated and teachers outsourced to countries with reasonable labor costs. We can in fact argue if we need scholarships as such or make classes so inexpensive that a scholarship is not usually needed.
Absolutely! I don't know how it's even a question! We should also make it mandatory for anyone who is enrolled in any welfare program. It doesn't have to be just coding. Anything technology. We need tech people and we have an endless supply of people that can have their lives changed while helping fill positions that are in high demand!
Being on the IT side of the house, I distinctly remember MCSE, Solaris and other for-profit bootcamps popping up towards the top of the dotcom bubble in the late 90s. They also loudly touted the fact that they accepted veterans' benefits as payment and I'm sure they made a lot of money doing this -- similar to the ITT Tech or DeVry style schools.
I guess my question is what a coder bootcamp prepares you to do. Do they just teach one or two JavaScript frameworks like node.js or Ruby on Rails or something? What is a coder bootcamp graduate supposed to be able to do? I actually went to one of these places to rapidly upgrade my Windows NT certs (which I did on my own) to Windows 2003 -- I was working for a consulting company back then who wanted to bill me out at a higher rate. I felt bad because there were obviously a few people in the class who had been sold the dream and had no clue what was going on, no aptitude for anything IT-related, etc. I'm betting there will be a fair number of veterans who will be "encouraged" to use their one-time education benefit to go through one of these coding schools. I'm just assuming that the only job you can get out of one of these schools is front-end web code cleanup or QA testing or something equally low-end -- am I right?
Only if the 'code schools' are actual universities, and not just for veterans. There are so many more jobs than programmers, no-one should be paying to go to 'code school' so long as you keep your grades up.
"He gave up the best young years of his life to defend your freedom while you were getting your education."
No, he decided to take a high risk, low paying job defending corporate interests overseas. When has our 'police actions' ever been about defending freedom? That's just empty platitude hawked by salesmen called 'recruiters', war movies, and patriotic video games.
Neither do you, evidently, but you think that you do.
It was, actually, pretty easy for me to use my G.I. Bill.
It sounds like you believe that we could never face a legitimate crisis of defending our freedom or even our existence.
I understand how the military gets misused by politicians owned by corporations. That doesn't mean we don't need to have a military in case a genuine, non-contrived need were to arise. I believe we should take care of these people. Educating them for a good job is probably better for society than letting them rot and have to be supported by taxpayers. Given the opportunity for education, I believe most ex-military people might probably have better motivation and ambition.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
That's why your code sucks. No structure. You could have used more structure in your life, rather than bashing those who operate better with defined goals.
The best coders understand this and spend 20% or more working as a BA, making sure that the results match the expectations. Something going to a structured program with a fixed syllabus helps teach. Rather than feral code monkeys that are flinging brown code on the wall to see what sticks.
Learn to love Alaska
My code doesn't suck, because I'm not a coder. Tiny bits of scripting are all I'll touch. I don't have the patience for it. Most of my time is interacting with users, assessing their needs, and making the machines work to do what they need (and sometimes what they want).
But the best coders learned how to code starting as kids, taking apart code and learning how it works, adding stuff to it, making it better, finding bugs and fixing them. They did it on their own, not being taught. By the time they got to college, they had already written parts of operating systems, spent summers interning at Apple, and got degrees in whatever, sometimes CS, sometimes engineering, sometimes philosophy. They work at places like Apple and Google, they're the ones that make operating systems work, write code that lets you talk to your computer, they write compilers, they write kernels.
True, but I've never had a job where I couldn't decide where in the country to live, or one that was likely to get me shot at, especially without the option of hitting the dirt and waiting for people who knew what they were doing to deal with the shooters.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes