Slashdot Mirror
Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools? (backchannel.com)
mirandakatz writes: David Molina was finishing up his 12-year time in the army when he started teaching himself to code, and started to think that he might like to pursue it professionally once his service was done. But with a wife and family, he couldn't dedicate the four years he'd need to get an undergraduate degree in computer science -- and the GI Bill, he learned, won't cover accelerated programs like code schools. So he started an organization dedicated to changing that. Operation Code is lobbying politicians to allow vets to attend code schools through the GI Bill and prepare themselves for the sorts of stable, middle-class jobs that have come to be called "blue-collar coding." Molina sees it as a serious failing that the GI Bill will cover myriad vocational programs, but not those that can prepare veterans for one of the fastest-growing industries in existence.
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
The issue seems to be quality. The group estimates there are already nine code schools in the U.S. which do accept GI Bill benefits -- but only "longer-standing ones that have made it through State Approving Agencies." Meanwhile, Course Report calculates 18,000 people finished coding bootcamps last year -- and that two thirds of them found a job within three months.
But I just liked how Molina described his introduction into the world of programmers. While stationed at Dover Air Force Base, he attended Baltimore's long-standing Meetup for Ruby on Rails, where "People taught me about open source. There was pizza, there was beer. They made me feel like I was at home."
No. New schools, even if they're "coding schools" still need to go through the normal procedures to attain recognition that they are a real school.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of schools scamming veterans. They offer fairly useless courses and the government pays.
Of course it would be good for veterans to learn coding but it should be a properly accredited school. It looks like there is a mechanism in place to properly vet (sic) schools and it should be followed.
Pizza and beer do not necessarily make a good school.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
No.
"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
I've had coworkers that were veterans and they got their masters degrees while in the military. There are apparently some really good C.S. programs like UMD that bend over backwards to accommodate their schedule and ensure credits transfer.
Better means to spend tax money than waste it on a border wall or more nukes!
First we need a "coding school" that is worth a damn. For the rest of this post I am going to say programming and not coding. I hate that word. I should also say some of the best programmers I've met never went to college. If such a program is to be instituted, It's going to have to be designed by the likes of Google, Canonical, and even Microsoft. This would also have to involve companies around the nation bringing in veterans for internships while they go over self-paced curriculum. Our veterans deserve a whole hell of a lot more than that though. The need to have the opportunity to be taught entrepreneurial skills and more. Now let's not forget about fixing the VA.
I get it, our country is broke. But if we could bring industry directly on board, that could mitigate a lot of government spending for these things. Next we need to pass a law that requires congressmen to actually read the bills they pass. I am tired of hearing about congressmen voting for something and then having remorse because they never actually read the proposal. Maybe then we could cut some government spending and fix the VA.
Our men and women in the armed forces deserve a lot, especially more respect. So yeah, start by recruiting major industry and well go from there.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
There are a good number of defence technology companies who will consider veterans.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Why do Americans apparently feel such a massive debt of gratitude is appropriate for ALL military vets?
Apart from anything else, they chose the job.
Where's the recognition for the police or firefighters or others who clearly face far more danger in 1 day than the average so-called vet who spent their entire enlistment (which could be as small as 2 years) in some stateside base nowhere near any actual danger?
Want a Job in Silicon Valley? Keep Away From Coding Schools: https://www.bloomberg.com/news... This isn't the whole story, of course, because there are good schools, and not all jobs are in Silicon Valley. But once the government starts providing tuition for these places, lots of these "coding schools" with low quality and high tuition will pop up everywhere.
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive. The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan to buy a house in San Jose, one of the most expensive housing markets in the world, and over the life of the loan I will get about $200k in taxpayer funded subsidies, which I am happy to accept but certainly don't "need". Yet many veterans living in trailer parks don't have the ability or knowledge to benefit from the same program.
In many ways, veterans are just another special interest group, with a huge voting block to back them up. It is difficult for politicians to resist their demands because they don't want attack ads claiming they "don't care about vets".
Not until *every* U.S. resident has access to such free education. We give these idiots enough already. We need to provide free educational services to everyone, regardless of what their past employment was.
if you can't learn to code on your own you can't learn to code. This is not an industry where you can learn some skill and be done. Coders are constantly retraining themselves to handle new technologies. Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Disappointed to see this comment down-voted. This was exactly my reaction upon reading the comment as well, even though I agree with it. Bloody ACs and their poor education! If only there was some kind of free education we could give them...
he could have gotten a nice fat retirement check the rest of his life
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
As stated in the summary the gov't does pay for these schools and "the issue is quality". Or is it? Is our protagonist asserting these schools are unfairly being evaluated as colleges when they're essentially vocational schools focused on what's apparently become a blue collar vocation?
The idea of giving veterans a leg up is hardly new, and in and of itself I can't imagine why it would be controversial. Now whether it should just be making more educational opportunities available, or trying to target specific occupations is a matter of debate.
As I sidenote, many years ago, at the dawn of my professional IT career, I installed and maintained POS software that had been developed by a fellow who got his start in programming via GI benefits after his tour of duty in Vietnam. He did pretty darned well for himself, and the last I had heard he'd sold his company for a pretty tidy sum. Now that is admittedly anecdotal, but it does suggest there are good sound benefits to help vets find career opportunities.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
He was paid wages for hose 12 years. He got *exactly* what he deserves.
Well said. Of course the U.S. American idiots will be down-voting you to hell on here. Deplorable.
Yeah, they want unreasonable things like treatment for medical conditions caused by their service, or the government to live up to the promises made when they signed up. People sign up under the promise of the GI Bill and other benefits, only to see them harder to get than promised.
Learn to love Alaska
No, it's still worth saying.
Fuck the veterans. Did they or did they not get paid? Because I'm pretty sure being stupid enough to get a job in the army is still getting a job. There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
Part of the benefits package that they have contracted too be paid is additional education during and after service. A major point of the article is that it might have broader societal advantages if that educational benefit could be used on coder schools.
There are a good number of defence technology companies who will consider veterans.
When I left the military, my first coding job was with a defense company. They hired vets for several reasons:
1. I already had a security clearance.
2. I knew military lingo and acronyms.
3. When interacting with our military clients, I knew that colonels and generals don't like to be addressed as "dude".
Veterans benefits was a throwback to a time when service wasn't voluntary. Then, because VA is not "military spending", the veterans had all the benefits separated, inflated, and are now a political, not practical, issue. VA loans, near guaranteed employment (many places have overt veteran preference, and it's illegal for the US government to hire a person to a job if there's a less qualified veteran that meets the minimums). The benefits are a lure to get people in. Because the pay is low (compared to salary in the private sector), mainly because the military doesn't include the benefits (uniforms provided, housing provided, vehicles, transportation, recreation, and other things provided). So $20k in the military would be like 40-60k in the private sector. But, since that's not well advertised, the recruiters focus on your "exit bonus" of the GI Bill, and other benefits. If the VA benefits weren't there, the recruits would reduce.
There are abuses on both sides. Those that get good benefits they didn't "need", and those who need a benefit that is provided in some form, but not in the form they need (education for this guy, housing for the homeless vets).
Learn to love Alaska
Most people require more structure. What site should you start with? What's a good end goal?
Yes, you can learn everything "college" (or coding school) will teach you from buying last year's texts at 10% of the price, and reading them yourself. But if that's as effective, why aren't more people doing it?
Learn to love Alaska
In particular for code but I think it would also benefit all ares of study I think no matter what you use the GI bill for you should be required to pass aptitude requirements to be sure you are actually suited to learning that skill and advised properly. But they can't just be paper tests but rather tests in addition to counselors that can provide exceptions to the tests. The counselors are then reviewed later to see if their exceptions were justified.
Not everyone is suited for coding. It's a special aptitude for something quite boring.
I'd say less than 3 percent of the population.
Maybe 20% for something like network engineering.
A sysadmin falls between the two and requires somewhat better social skills.
The benefits are a lure to get people in.
I wonder how effective that is. I enlisted in the Marines on my 18th birthday, and I had never heard of any benefits (and in general, had no idea what I was signing up for). Maybe the more brain-oriented branches (AF, Navy) are different, but I never heard any Marine say he enlisted to pay for college, or to get a home loan.
Due to the growing infrastructure supporting the utilization (or if you are real engineer the misuse) of offshore coders, even formerly high rate positions are dropping to $25 per hour. Not much better than the proposed $15 per hour minimum wage for counter service jobs
"Knowing everything doesn't help..."
There is zero reason to give them anything but their last paycheck on the way out the door.
As a veteran, I pretty much agree with this. The military is 100% volunteer, and the pay is pretty good. Of course we need to take care of people that were wounded or disabled in the line of duty, but for everyone else, the handouts and entitlements are excessive.
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector, and volunteering is more noble than otherwise. I've never served in the military, and appreciate that you and others volunteered to risk you life for the country and its people - or for others elsewhere. I have no problem with affording some of my tax dollars to help express that appreciation, even after you separate from service.
The benefits are also heavily skewed toward those that need them the least. I used a VA loan ... which I am happy to accept but certainly don't "need". Yet many veterans living in trailer parks don't have the ability or knowledge to benefit from the same program.
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities to learn regular-world life skills so they could better benefit from these veterans' programs. The rest of us get to learn these thing while we're young and starting out, while you're learning to defend us. Giving you some opportunity to catch up with the rest of us seems reasonable.
Of course, there will always be those you can take out of the trailer park, but can't take the trailer park out of them. (Said as someone who lived in one my first year of college, but am now 54 and a senior software developer at a large defense contractor.)
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
The recruitment process now has pamphlets of the benefits. Lines them up and sums them up, makes it sound like a $200k bonus for signing. At least when I last saw, around the time of the first Gulf War.
Learn to love Alaska
I hate to say this; but, after you work out all the benefits, the pay in the military is significantly more than most of the people, in the military, would receive in the private sector.
I imagine the pay isn't as good as in the private sector
You imagine wrong. For an 18 year old high school graduate, the pay is pretty good. When you add in basic necessities that are provided for free (food, housing, ammunition), it is a pretty good deal
... and volunteering is more noble than otherwise.
My reasons for joining had nothing to do with being "noble" or "serving my country" or any of that crap. It was a testosterone driven desire for adventure. I wanted to jump out of airplanes, ride in helicopters, and go see the world (Yes, I did all of those things as a Marine).
Perhaps some effort should be spent ensuring active duty personnel and veterans are offered opportunities ...
Veterans benefits, like any other entitlement, will always be twisted toward those that can organize, manipulate the system, and contribute to politicians, ... in other words successful people that don't really need the benefits.
Giving you some opportunity to catch up with the rest of us seems reasonable.
Except that we don't need to "catch up". According to the DOL, veterans are doing better than average in median income.
4 years is to long but the tech schools that are not in the 2 or 4 system need some over site.
lanwanprofessional is one where they are not very clear on what is really costs and they have the go hear and get job that pays X just like how ITT and others did it.
The days of becoming a programmer with an education are over. As someone who has a master's degree in CS and someone who has written open source software, there are no jobs for me anywhere. I have proof I can write quality software, and nobody ever looks at it. They see European ancestry in the name on my resume and they reject me immediately, because I happen to be a white man.
Coding is for unskilled brown code monkeys. Skilled programmers are not wanted.
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
I meant catch up in other ways. Sorry if that was unclear.
Okay, but I don't think there is any catching up to do. I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world, I had learned to speak some Japanese and Tagalog, and even more Mandarin (and eventually married a Chinese girl), and that opened a lot of opportunities in business and high-tech, especially as so much of the world's economy has shifted to Asia.
If you want to pay higher taxes to subsidize the mortgage on my McMansion in San Jose, I am not going to refuse the money, but I certainly don't need it, and veterans in general don't need it anymore than anyone else.
If you need more structure in your education, code monkey almost certainly isn't a good career choice for you.
You're going to get an education more suited to writing good code from a philosophy major than you are from a coding school.
The only vets you have to worry about are the ones who carry a loaded finger gun on the bus and telling themselves, "Never surrender! Never give up!"
Seriously, America needs an assortment of educated ppl. Not just white collar, but blue collar.
As such, we need to make community colleges free (based on grades), not just to vets, but those that have graduated recently, as well as those that were laid off.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Where are you applying? Big companies in small towns?
"Should The Government Pay For Veterans To Attend Code Schools?"
Only if veterans of Russian Army.
Dave Barnes 9 breweries within walking distance of my house
The point of the coding school cannot be to learn how to code to a professional standard, because that takes years no matter how you approach it -- it's why we have the concept of a junior developer. The point of the coding school must be to learn how to learn how to program.
Maybe this little snowflake should grow up and realize millions of people actually work there way through college studying late at night after working an 8 hour shift and then taking care of there kids.
Your attitude is crap, and this statement is just as applicable to any coding school attendee. Do you imagine that it takes no time or money to attend those?
Personally I'm not in a hurry to judge people for their choices, or to say that people can't be programmers. Yes, this profession requires a lot of continuing education. I don't see why this should be more concerning to the boot camp grad than the CS grad.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
First we need a "coding school" that is worth a damn. For the rest of this post I am going to say programming and not coding.
No, these people are certainly turning out coders and not programmers. They will know git and unit testing, but they won't know Knuth or Turing from a hole in the ground.
If such a program is to be instituted, It's going to have to be designed by the likes of Google, Canonical, and even Microsoft.
The industry is not interested in training its own. Otherwise there wouldn't need to be these programs. But I'm taking the words "self paced" and "internship" to mean that you haven't seriously thought about this issue. Internships are not replacements for classroom instruction, and getting someone from being a complete novice to the point where it's even worth it to pair them with a more senior dev takes quite a lot of instruction.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
I disagree. The skill being taught is the ability to learn programming. I'm attending a coding academy at the moment (for reasons which are becoming increasingly obscure) and no one could possibly mistake the curriculum for a complete education, but unfortunately there's essentially no place offering anything better. CS grads can probably be trusted to have learned either Java, Python, or perhaps Javascript. They can probably discuss a bit about algorithmic complexity and may know something about compilers, parsers, and lexers. They may know something about OS design or circuit design. They may or may not have learned anything about source control. Unit testing is less likely. The actual day-to-day practice of programming will be pretty obscure. I'm betting that the average coding school graduate will have a much better handle on whether they have an affinity for programming than your average CS grad, and if there are "skills needed to succeed" they're not going to be taught at either place.
We likely need a further bridge between the coding school and the real world (some sort of apprenticeship, say), but providing these services is pretty expensive. The industry isn't stepping up. The private sector is finding it difficult (from conversations and observing a few schools go under). Does government have a role to play here?
To answer my own rhetorical question to some degree, the DoL is actually running a study to see if it's worthwhile to give veterans and people who suffered from the 2008 crash (career-wise) grants to attend coding school. It's called Reboot Northwest. So, whilst we argue, others are gathering data, but there are of course both philosophical and practical matters at stake.
Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
Don't undersell item no. 3. I've never served myself but I've worked with plenty of folks who have. They ran the gamut in terms of their technical skills from none to PhD physicist, but compared to kids fresh out of college, not a single one of them ever needed to be taught how to work and behave in the workplace. Anyone who's ever had a fresh crop of overconfident graduates come in the door knows exactly what I mean.
Probably because, they don't know, how to use commas, either.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I don't think the veterans referred to in TFA are ex-members of the Punjab Fusliers.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Shit, folks, the federal government can't even run its veterans' hospitals well. And you want to give it more to screw up?
When they've gotten the hang of that existing responsibility, then it might make sense to expand their responsibilities. Not before.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
I felt like my military experience gave me a head start. When I later went to college, I had a much deeper and more mature perspective. To other students in history class, the places mentioned were just names on a map. But I had been there. I had a better understanding of the world,
A bit off topic... I agreed to your statement here. Though, I would add that it is not just military experience, but rather any real life experience would give a head start in college education. Simply go directly from high school to college isn't for most people. Majority of them should at least come out of school and work in order to see what the real world is. Then they should get some ideas about what they are expecting before they go back to take higher education. The real world experience will help them understand how to study and what to look for in the future from the education.
Sure, train them for a job that is being frequently outsourced to the 3rd world.
Then re-train them again for whatever is job fashionable. Repeat until money is exhausted.
We need trade schools to teach skills that cant be so easily outsourced. Maybe Industrial Robot Repair,
> He was paid wages for hose 12 years. He got *exactly* what he deserves.
He gave up the best young years of his life to defend your freedom while you were getting your education. Now that he's done, he should be able to get his education. Even if he got married during his young years, as you might have done.
Another point -- whether or not he had to fight in a war to defend your freedom is beyond his control. What he did is volunteer to be trained and serve, and even fight and die for your and my freedom. If a genuine threat to our nation emerged, or even outright war, he would be the first one fighting. He did a lot more than just have a job. He put his life at some jeopardy in the event that he is ordered to go to war -- whether justified or not.
If he wants to get married at a young age, just as you might, why should he be denied that? Why should it work against him once he gets out of the military and now wants the opportunity to get an education -- which was a benefit promised when he signed up. He chose to delay his education in order to serve his country.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Scholarships for vocational programs is one of the most useful and biggest payoff services that a government can provide. And coding schools can be extremely inexpensive as they can be largely automated and teachers outsourced to countries with reasonable labor costs. We can in fact argue if we need scholarships as such or make classes so inexpensive that a scholarship is not usually needed.
Being on the IT side of the house, I distinctly remember MCSE, Solaris and other for-profit bootcamps popping up towards the top of the dotcom bubble in the late 90s. They also loudly touted the fact that they accepted veterans' benefits as payment and I'm sure they made a lot of money doing this -- similar to the ITT Tech or DeVry style schools.
I guess my question is what a coder bootcamp prepares you to do. Do they just teach one or two JavaScript frameworks like node.js or Ruby on Rails or something? What is a coder bootcamp graduate supposed to be able to do? I actually went to one of these places to rapidly upgrade my Windows NT certs (which I did on my own) to Windows 2003 -- I was working for a consulting company back then who wanted to bill me out at a higher rate. I felt bad because there were obviously a few people in the class who had been sold the dream and had no clue what was going on, no aptitude for anything IT-related, etc. I'm betting there will be a fair number of veterans who will be "encouraged" to use their one-time education benefit to go through one of these coding schools. I'm just assuming that the only job you can get out of one of these schools is front-end web code cleanup or QA testing or something equally low-end -- am I right?
It was, actually, pretty easy for me to use my G.I. Bill.
It sounds like you believe that we could never face a legitimate crisis of defending our freedom or even our existence.
I understand how the military gets misused by politicians owned by corporations. That doesn't mean we don't need to have a military in case a genuine, non-contrived need were to arise. I believe we should take care of these people. Educating them for a good job is probably better for society than letting them rot and have to be supported by taxpayers. Given the opportunity for education, I believe most ex-military people might probably have better motivation and ambition.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
That's why your code sucks. No structure. You could have used more structure in your life, rather than bashing those who operate better with defined goals.
The best coders understand this and spend 20% or more working as a BA, making sure that the results match the expectations. Something going to a structured program with a fixed syllabus helps teach. Rather than feral code monkeys that are flinging brown code on the wall to see what sticks.
Learn to love Alaska
My code doesn't suck, because I'm not a coder. Tiny bits of scripting are all I'll touch. I don't have the patience for it. Most of my time is interacting with users, assessing their needs, and making the machines work to do what they need (and sometimes what they want).
But the best coders learned how to code starting as kids, taking apart code and learning how it works, adding stuff to it, making it better, finding bugs and fixing them. They did it on their own, not being taught. By the time they got to college, they had already written parts of operating systems, spent summers interning at Apple, and got degrees in whatever, sometimes CS, sometimes engineering, sometimes philosophy. They work at places like Apple and Google, they're the ones that make operating systems work, write code that lets you talk to your computer, they write compilers, they write kernels.
True, but I've never had a job where I couldn't decide where in the country to live, or one that was likely to get me shot at, especially without the option of hitting the dirt and waiting for people who knew what they were doing to deal with the shooters.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It would appear that you're real fuzzy on "war crime" and "complicit".
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes