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The Vatican Invites World's Leading Scientists To Discuss Cosmology (independent.co.uk)
In 2014, Pope Francis declared that God is not "a magician with a magic wand" and that evolution and the Big Bang theory are real. Now, the Vatican has sent an invitation to the world's leading scientists and cosmologists to try and understand the Big Bang. The Independent reports: Astrophysicists and other experts will attend the Vatican Observatory to discuss black holes, gravitational waves and space-time singularities as it honors the late Jesuit cosmologist considered one of the fathers of the idea that the universe began with a gigantic explosion. The conference honoring Monsignor George Lemaitre is being held at the Vatican Observatory, founded by Pope Leo XIII in 1891 to help correct the notion that the Roman Catholic Church was hostile to science. In 1927, Lemaitre was the first to explain that the receding of distant galaxies was the result of the expansion of the universe, a result he obtained by solving equations of Einstein's theory of general relativity. Lemaitre's theory was known as the "primeval atom," but it is more commonly known today as the big-bang theory. The head of the Vatican Observatory, Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, says Lemaitre's research proves that you can believe in God and the big-bang theory.
There's a new KING RAT!
All Hail KING TRUMP!
If you're going to be Christian and don't want to be a retard, Catholicism is where it's at.
"Lemaitre's theory was known as the "primeval atom," but it is more commonly known today as the big-bang theory."
I hope his heirs are getting paid. I understand that's a very popular TV show.
It's a trap! ...
6,000 years ago? How do christians who believe the earth is 6,000 years old resolve both evolution AND the big band theory with current doctrine and dogma, when the very institution who sets these believes in both?
God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible – Abdu’l-Baha
Ask Galileo how that worked out. Sounds like desperate actions of cult who's way past expiration date.
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Big Bang is a "socially accepted theory" just like the geocentric model or spontaneous generation used to be.
Next generation telescopes launched in the next 10 years will determine the Big Bang is false, just another human-friendly creationist theory dressed up in 20th century scifi.
Just wait until advanced telescope start looking in sky and discover extremely stars and galaxies far older than the Big Bang could ever explain.
Why does Big Bang have more stitches and adjustments to the model than a Frankenstein monster?
The false BICEP2 detection of graviton waves wasn't just a false detection --- it was also a non-detection. It should have found something. It was a red flag that a propped up Frankentheory has no legs.
Next happens next? Who knows. We are missing a puzzle piece.
But humans --- who excel at error created the Big Bang myth. To err is human.
Out of all fields, astronomy is the least troubling from a modern Catholic point of view. If they want to prove they're "hip" and "cool" and up with all that science business, that'd be my first choice too.
Besides, just imagine the potential of bringing God's word to intelligent aliens. Interplanetary missionaries.
Now that the Pope has lured them in, he should put them all on trial for heresy.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Sadly, the US Catholic church is mired in the 15th century.
Just give the Universe ID a GUID, Then, how you label the "was_created_by" field can then change at will, without affecting the fact that it IS.
Notice, it is an ID, not necessarily a UniqueID... "This is my universe. There are many like it, but this one is mine. It is my life."
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
"Just wait until advanced telescope start looking in sky and discover extremely stars and galaxies far older than the Big Bang could ever explain."
Or just wait for your Armageddon. Which will not occur as you've been sold. The Big Bang Theory is based on the best science we have to date. Your nonsense is based on the misguided writings of false profits who put pen to paper thousands of yeas ago.
Even if the Big Bang is false it'll at least not be labeled as truth but as our best informed guess. Your nonsense is based on ignorance and fear.
Is it anything like this one?
http://www.hwdyk.com/q/images/...
Next pope is gonna undo everything he did.
What a cool Pope.
I just figured it out why the Pope has been so progressive: it's all been a lure for this moment! You see, when they arrive in the Vatican, the world's most prominent cosmologists will be put on trial for heresy. It's too bad this warning won't reach them in time because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition! ;)
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
The system in motion is not limited by its current definition. God may or not need to use to "time" (motion) to change the rules.
Direction is irrelevant to a copy/paste function.
Deletion or alteration occur as well.
Just like math: the whole game can change with a simple plus one minus one. (on vs off for binary)
This does not encroach into the "can God do this?" area, since most computer scientists will agree that IF god exists, he very SIMPLY can change everything AS IF IT WERE MAGIC and probably with little effort.
So long as you don't use a condom. But touching little boys is ok.
The main reason that there is so much pedophilia in Catholicism is because the Catholic church has created its own traditions which go against the teachings of the Bible. They do not allow priests or the pope to get married, yet Peter, the guy they claim to be the first pope was married. An example of one such passage that is ignored by the church is 1 Corinthians 7:
"Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband."
and
"But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
If the Catholic church allowed its priests to follow the teachings of these scriptures there would be far less sexual immorality and abuse in the church.
The phrase "Intelligent Design" was a invention to get around the 1987 U.S. Supreme Court ruling Edwards v. Aguillard. Which stopped them teaching God as a creator due to the "supernatural" nature of the belief system meant it was religion.
So they wanted to teach religion in schools, so they invented a pseudo science of Intelligent Design to be taught as a "theory" (a theory, their lawyers just invented), in the same way "the THEORY of evolution" is taught... theory #1 vs theory #2....
Kids want to have an exclusive on something, so they tell them evolution is just a theory, and they're trying to hide this other theory that's the real truth, and so the kid thinks "I can be the 'intelligent design' kid that knows a secret the others don't know" and that's how indoctrination works.
As they get older, it's difficult to face that "ID" is not part of your religion, or science, but simply an invention to get around a court ruling.
Penrose's Cycles of Time puts forward a really straightforward mechanism for the big bang. When the last massive particle pops and all the energy in the universe is massless photons, you have no mass, so no gravity and no time. Everything is simple, low entropy, dominated by photons and bingo you have something that looks (and is) identical to the state at start of the big bang.
It hard to see why it isn't true.
He's a smart fellow that Penrose.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
The head of the Vatican Observatory, Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, says Lemaitre's research proves that you can believe in God and the big-bang theory.
It sounds like Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno is experiencing some cognitive dissonance. He has to believe in God to keep his job, but he has to also believe in the Big Bang theory to be a real astronomer.
I imagine it's a pretty sweet gig, but there are other jobs out there.
Does a God need it?
You (and the creationist idiots for different reasons) are looking at things the wrong way IMHO. As I see it science and religion are orthogonal unless it's dumbed down Christianity-Lite that sees science as a direct threat to it's very financial business model.
Mendel was quite happy working out a few things about genetics as well as being a monk, they didn't conflict. In geology four out of the five that disproved the "Noah's flood" theory of fossils were ordained. They didn't have so narrow an idea of religion that reality could get in the way.
I heard a quantum astro physicist speak on this recently. It was interesting that what he said the requirements for the big bang would be just happened to match up to some things outside of physics.
You mentioned:
> It all comes down to relativity: If the universe started as a single dimensionless point, then the gravity would have been so strong that time didn't exist. If time didn't exist
If time didn't exist within that point, if the gravity was so strong nothing could escape, then *nothing* could happen, within a basic understanding of relatively. For anything to happen, for the big bang to happen, you need either something outside pf physics (something meta-physical) or certain laws of quantum physics must be present in a very particular way.
Biblically, when God is asked who he is, the answer is basically "I am what it timeless" or "I am what has always been and always will be" (English doesn't have exactly the right words because we give several meanings to the word "is/am" Spanish comes closer with es vs esta). Also "I am the truth". So God states he is, essentially, timeless truth. Whatever has always been true, that's God.
And the physicists say that *before* the big bang can happen, quantum physics must *already* be true. Quantum physics must be timeless truth in order to get the big bang, or else the big bang has to be caused by something beyond physics, something meta-physical.
Therefore reading the plain words, the laws pf physics are timeless truth that must have existed before the big bang, and that's what God is - timeless truth that existed before the big bang. The founders of the US would then have been correct to call the laws of nature the laws of God, acts of nature are called acts of God. They are one and the same. They are timeless truth.
That's really where one religion (Quantum Mechanics) meets another religion (Big bang consmology).
Quantum mechanics fails because it defies causality creating paradoxes they ignore. Ignoring basic conflicts in reasoning to support a theory make QM a religion not a science. Equations do not make science, logic does.
Big bang fails because it won't address basics. Why not two big bangs, or three or 33? And invents magic to support a broken model (e.g. inflation theory magically stopping, time not existing before big bang etc.)
Christianity hangs onto the religious fringes of science here.
It's the same since Earth was at the center of the universe (because Religion decided God made us special), and there were massive pointless equations describing the weird loop-the-loop motion of the planets....Equations do not make science, logic does, those equations indeed predicted the motion of the planets as if the earth was at the center of it all.... but they were simply wrong.
desires by a quite a ways. The evangelicals defense is, "but they're dead so what's the harm?" Trump agrees.
Makes about as much sense.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Edgar Allan Poe suggested something similar (and more) in 1848 in his prose poem Eureka, shortly before his death: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... Admitedly Poe's ideas are highly questionable, however they're very inspirational. I wonder if Lemaitre read Poe before he did his remarkable works...
GNNA 0n slashdot,
Saying the earth is flat is wrong, saying the earth is round is also wrong, but one is much more wrong than the other.
The other things that can't be disproved should not be taken on faith, but doing so is not proven wrong by the evidence. Insisting that the earth is 6000 years old and was flooded entirely before DESPITE evidence is retarded and disproved by the evidence, so you have to disbelieve reality to hold on to it. Which is double retarded and a "gateway drug" to the violent extremism you see complained about from Muslims. THEY have to be taught to disbelieve reality for the catchetisms of their faith. THEN then can be taught to slaughter people on webcam is holy.
Of course it is real. You need to be a complete idiot to deny that such a theory exists.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
The Vatican has maintained an astronomy office since 1774: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... .
In 1993 the Vatican Observatory saw first light on one of the world's premier large telescopes on Mt. Graham in Arizona (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope), a project which was almost killed off by the same Greens who are trying to prevent the Thirty Meter Telescope in Hawaii from being built, on the same excuse of "sacred to my people" that is being used now in Hawaii.
Exterminate smelly shitty H1B indo-chimps, stop infestation.
Take a look at their bank accounts and other holdings.
That just means they are talented at scamming the credulous and are huge hypocrites. Take one look at Vatican City if you need proof that of their hypocrisy about "helping the poor". They are only interested in finding new angles to take advantage of people.
The church wanting to "talk" about cosmology is a waste of everyone's time because they have nothing useful to add to the discussion. Their idea of cosmology ends with the writings of primitive men who died thousands of years ago. The only interest the church has here is in hoodwinking idiots into thinking they are interested in something more than growing their flock and keeping their gravy train going. An organization which has based their interpretation of the world around a ridiculous fictional book isn't likely to be interested in a rational and evidence based discussion. They are just trying to figure out where the gaps are to continue their god of the gaps argument.
As I see it science and religion are orthogonal unless it's dumbed down Christianity-Lite that sees science as a direct threat to it's very financial business model.
They are not orthogonal unfortunately because for religions to work they have to manipulate how people think. Science is really nothing more than a rigorous method of thinking and it routinely comes into conflict with religions on this point. Islam, Christianity and the rest are also methods of thinking primarily used to control people by received "wisdom". To accomplish this they insist that followers believe certain tenets which are routinely in direct conflict with scientific methods, objective evidence and rational thinking.
Furthermore Islam and Christianity in particular are enthusiastic about trying to add followers, sometimes literally at the point of a sword. Objective rational thinking is a direct threat to this "business model" as you so rightly put it. They prey on the credulous and science is a clear and present danger to their ability to do this.
So no, religion and science are not orthogonal and cannot be as long as religion continues to attempt to tell people what to think about the world around them. For them to be orthogonal religion would have to be considerably more withdrawn from the material world than they are.
If time didn't exist within that point, if the gravity was so strong nothing could escape, then *nothing* could happen, within a basic understanding of relatively. For anything to happen, for the big bang to happen, you need either something outside pf physics (something meta-physical) or certain laws of quantum physics must be present in a very particular way.
Sigh... Just because you don't understand the physics of something doesn't mean that you need to invoke a deity to explain it. You are thinking of the big bang like a conventional explosion. It isn't. This is well trodden ground by physicists and no meta-physics is required.
Biblically, when God is asked who he is, the answer is basically "I am what it timeless" or "I am what has always been and always will be" (English doesn't have exactly the right words because we give several meanings to the word "is/am" Spanish comes closer with es vs esta). Also "I am the truth". So God states he is, essentially, timeless truth. Whatever has always been true, that's God.
So you are making a god of the gaps argument. Whatever we cannot explain currently must be god. Curious how "truth" from religions only seems to come in the form of 2000 year old holy books full of preposterous stories.
And the physicists say that *before* the big bang can happen, quantum physics must *already* be true.
No physicist I've ever met has said anything of the sort, at least in the sense you are implying. Not one of them pretends to know what the laws of physics were prior to the big bang or even for some short duration after. That is currently beyond our ability to model and predict. Quantum physics as we understand it likely would have no meaning prior to the big bang and we certainly have no testable models to evaluate.
Quantum physics must be timeless truth in order to get the big bang, or else the big bang has to be caused by something beyond physics, something meta-physical.
Wrong again. Quantum physics is a mathematical model of what we observe about the world around us. A well tested model but a model all the same. It is not some "timeless truth" especially given that it is an incomplete model and it certainly doesn't imply the existence of anything meta-physical. You are talking the sort of nonsense that sounds convincing to the uneducated and credulous but is easily debunked by anyone who actually has studied the topic.
If photons are moving around, then there is velocity, speed of light and time. There are also electrons, mass and gravity. Before that it's all a quark gluon soup.
Religion and science go together wonderfully as long as the other doesn't try to diletantly invade the domain of the other.
They do not go together wonderfully because religion cannot help but attempt to instruct people about the world around them. There is no way to entirely separate the claims religion makes regarding the material world around us and the human experience from those that science makes. This is why religion continues to try to limit scientific thinking because it reduces the ability of organized religions to dole out made up explanations for how the world works. Their "business model" depends on it. The problem religions have is that you don't actually need religion for dealing with "why" questions or the "how". Religion has nothing useful to contribute there. All religion has are farcical fables rather than actual answers. And they are desperately trying to keep the credulous from understanding this reality.
For religion to not intrude on science, religion would have to withdraw so far from daily human reality as to no longer be a meaningful part of human life. Religions had evolutionary utility at one point because they helped people organize into tribes which were useful for survival. The evolutionary utility has long since passed but it's hard to get rid of religion at this point because of our obvious predisposition towards it.
Deities have to be timeless - at least I won't settle for anything less. If an entity has apparent super powers, but is still subject to the passage of time (and thereby to the second law of thermodynamics), it is merely technologically more advanced.
Time, to a deity, has as much meaning as page numbers in a book. Or CPU clock cycles to a programmer who is able to observe, preserve and set every single state of the machine, thereby being essentially able to "turn back time" from the CPUs point of view.
Proof of divine power is as simple as showing a perpetuum mobile (preferably first or second kind, but I'll settle for third kind).
Photons both generate and are acted upon by gravitational fields. Gravity couples to energy, including kinetic energy, not just rest energy/mass.
...I would still advise that you read the Liturgy.
Liturgy is ritual rather than a bit of writing but I'll assume you are talking about the various catholic holy texts. I've read more of it than I care to admit. And it was largely preposterous crap meant to impress the credulous. The only value in reading it is so you can understand something about what the poor deluded followers of the church are rambling on about.
Some of the best writing ever came from the Catholic church. Even if they can't live by their own rules, it doesn't invalidate the rules.
It's impossible to actually exist by the rules of the church because they are illogical and self-contradictory and reflect values of people from a different time and place.
I also disagree you your assertion of the quality of the writing but that's not an objective critique on my part, more of an aesthetic judgement. The content of the liturgy on the other hand is objectively crap. Mostly made up fables that con men are trying with all their might to justify in order to gain power over the credulous.
Curious how they interpret genesis then. If the big bang theory is accurate, then a god simply cannot have created the universe. It all comes down to relativity: If the universe started as a single dimensionless point, then the gravity would have been so strong that time didn't exist. If time didn't exist, then there was no time for a god to create the universe.
It is unlikely that the big bang presents any sort of theological problem for the church. The theory was put forward by a Catholic priest teaching at a Catholic university after all.
Keep in mind that communications between two parties needs to be a least common denominator sort of thing. An all powerful God has to use concepts that humans can understand. The pre-scientific farmers and shepherds of the bible's day needed something a bit simplified compared to a modern astrophysicist. Perhaps if God were to explain things today we might have a genesis where our universe is created out of a multiverse. That would be closer to what I think the church argues, that God is beyond the universe, outside of it. Not simply in a different geographical part of it. Hence the ability to create space, time and the universe.
Lol?
Penrose's Cycles of Time puts forward a really straightforward mechanism for the big bang. When the last massive particle pops and all the energy in the universe is massless photons, you have no mass, so no gravity and no time. Everything is simple, low entropy, dominated by photons and bingo you have something that looks (and is) identical to the state at start of the big bang.
It hard to see why it isn't true.
He's a smart fellow that Penrose.
This invite is a trap, they want to kill you!
He gathers all of them up, does a sermon, goes behind a curtain, and then presses a little intercom button to speak into the mic:
"KILL THEM!"
> God has a moral component being either the source of moral goodness or its arbitrator (depending on your view)
The biblical God, from all I've read, *is* truth, not the arbiter of truth. "I am the way, the truth, and the light". (The word "am" here is the permanent "am"). Anywhere in that big old Bible does it say "I am the arbiter of morality? If so I haven't seen it.
To whatever extent morality is true, whatever moral laws are fixed and permanent, those are *part of* the biblical God because God *is* truth, according to the Bible. Whatever laws of physics are true, always true, are of course part of "I am the truth".
I haven't taken a survey of how "most people" understand things, but the biblical God is truth - all truth.
What do I care what some organized cult leader has to say about science?
Instead of finding compromises with a cult that worships a 2000-year old zombie, let's just let go of Christianity completely. It was a very silly thing to believe in to begin with.
>There are also electrons, mass and gravity.
Not if you wait long enough.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
What this is, I suspect, is the Catholic leadership realizing that the window of ignorance is just about to close on their fingers, so they're scrambling a bit to retrench a little further outside of their normal run of indoctrination.
It seems inevitable if a particular branch of theism wishes to survive much longer outside of third-world countries. Not much room for superstition remains outside of the ever-shrinking classes of the susceptible.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I disagree. It's hard to see why it IS true.
Seeing as I'm just a person on the internet and you're just a person on the internet, both my appeal to disbelieve Penrose and your appeal to believe Penrose should be of equal weight. Maybe we should just believe Penrose? He's smart after all. Well, it just happens I recently talked to a really smart guy who says Penrose is wrong (he claimed he was slightly smarter than Penrose, so we should probably believe him).
OR we could wait for an actual scientific investigation into Penrose's long rambly theory (that as far as I could tell ended with photons without mass == magic and no further explanation).
Listening to the Vatican is like listening to the little voices inside your head telling you to eat that lamppost. Delusions take many forms. Religion is the most prevalent form of delusion.
Largely because not everything is going to turn into photons. Photons are not the only elementary particle
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I'm not appealing for anyone to believe anything.I neither saying he's right nor wrong. The argument was very interesting and worth checking out.
The "== magic" thing was the scale free nature of the equations of photons leading them to be being conformally equal to the low entropy state at the start of the universe when there's no mass around. So more of a mathematical observation.
I guess we could just ignore all this stuff and live under a rock until someone declares science to be complete, but I find it interesting.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
the collider is sentient?
The head of the Vatican Observatory, Jesuit Brother Guy Consolmagno, says Lemaitre's research proves that you can believe in God and the big-bang theory.
But I says that Occam's razor advises that you shouldn't (believe in God and the big-bang theory.)
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
How original "correlation != causation" you stupid punk. If I stick my hand in a fire and it gets burned and you do the same with the same result, I'd say correlation = causation you ridiculous little stupid shit!
But does the Vatican believe in The Big Bang Theory?
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0898266/?ref_=nv_sr_1
Photons are massless, so they don't create gravitational curvature.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Understanding science to a level that divests one of most or all superstitious victimization only requires three things:
1) Understanding that there are experts who do science
2) Understanding the scientific method
3) Understanding that technology is the arm that uses science
If you can wrap your head around those things, you'll be able to ignore superstition; worst case, a few minutes quick work on a search engine will reveal if there is peer-review science, or just blather, on any particular subject. And if related technology is on record or in play.
You don't have to be a scientist in, or be highly familiar with, any particular science, to realize that pretty much everything around you came about due to actual science, and was brought to useful levels by technology, science's strong arm of implementation. You just have to understand the process. 1, 2, 3 as above.
Unlike most of history, the information required to understand what is actually going on is now a few keystrokes away in developed countries. That's what is closing the window of ignorance so much faster.
I also suspect that in the relatively near future, historically speaking, we'll be able to produce kids that are not gullible, stupid, or lacking in the ability to employ critical thinking. At that point, producing another human being without these capacities will render them highly non-competitive right out of the... gate, and parents won't generally buy into that. It's hand-waving at this point, I fully admit, but it seems to me that the seeds of this are sprouting all around us.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Funny coming from people who used to burn scientist for heresy when they're the heritics themselves.
It had to become sentient to make sure we didn't detect the real Higgs. Duh.
I do not want your cheap brainburning drugs. They are useless for work. And I am a working man today.
Photons have energy, which creates gravitational curvature. E=mc^2 applies here.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Fair enough. I was wrong. https://physics.stackexchange....
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
There are thousands and thousands of scientific theories that are clear, understandable, explain some things, and have been proven wrong.
Not to mention that photons do have gravitational effects, I see no reason why everything in the Universe including electrons would decay into them, and anyone who believes Searle's Chinese Room idea can't be all that smart.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
I consider that a fundamental oxymoron. This is an area where significant amounts of the "art" consist of fad-driven guesswork in the form of (often really bad) metaphor, and worse, one in which the fads change quite rapidly. The most reliable aspect of it is statistical behavioral analysis. The rest... religion, pretty much.
As to the future, and superstition's role in it: I will wait and see what actually happens. Within that context, I dare to hope that some of the self-inflicted delusion will go away. I could certainly be wrong. But that is my hope at this time.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Galileo will be as thrilled to learn of this as Adam Smith will be of a similar event for economists in half a millennium or so.
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
This Pope has a science degree. Look it up. Science doesn't address much at all, think about it-- infinite knowledge vs science... we can't know it all. Plenty of room in there for beliefs.
Keep in mind I'm saying this as a person without a faith.
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