Linux Distros Won't Run On Microsoft's Education-Focused Windows 10 S OS (betanews.com)

Reader BrianFagioli writes: I was sort of hopeful for Windows 10 S when Microsoft made a shocking announcement at Build 2017 that it is bringing Linux distributions to the Windows Store. This gave the impression that students using the S variant of the OS would be able to tinker with Linux. Unfortunately, this is not the case as Microsoft will be blocking Linux on the new OS. In other words, not all apps in the store will be available for Windows 10 S. "Windows 10 S does not run command-line applications, nor the Windows Console, Cmd / PowerShell, or Linux/Bash/WSL instances since command-line apps run outside the safe environment that protects Windows 10 S from malicious / misbehaving software," says Rich Turner, Senior Product Manager, Microsoft. Tuner further explains, "Linux distro store packages are an exotic type of app package that are published to the Windows Store by known partners. Users find and install distros , safely, quickly, and reliably via the Windows Store app. Once installed, however, distros should be treated as command-line tools that run outside the UWP sandbox and secure runtime infrastructure. They run with the capabilities granted to the local user -- in the same way as Cmd and PowerShell do. This is why Linux distros don't run on Windows 10 S: Even though they're delivered via the Windows Store, and installed as standard UWP APPX's, they run as non-UWP command-line tools and this can access more of a system than a UWP can."

Comments

as a workaround

[nimbius]

to this unfortunate problem...you can also just install linux. Believe it or not, you dont need Windows to run it.

Re:as a workaround

[lkcl]

you can... until a vendor like e.g. lenovo releases a laptop with a UEFI BIOS where you are not permitted to remove the boot-locked settings that would *allow* you to install a GNU/Linux distro... https://www.bit-tech.net/news/...

Re:as a workaround

[ausekilis]

Unless of course that distro had paid in to be part of the UEFI club. I believe Redhat was one of them...

Re:as a workaround

[Lead Butthead]

... or why buying boot-locked (indeed, any DRM'ed) product is a BAD IDEA (tm).

Re:as a workaround

[maestroX]

when managing multiple machines in education, just pxe boot (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DisklessUbuntuHowto)

Re:as a workaround

[green1]

Everyone already buys bootlocked phones, this is simply the next logical step.

We just discussed this in an article on Netflix not loading on rooted Androids, and when I suggested that it was only a matter of time before the same became true for computers I was told there's no way that would ever fly. But the thing is, it will. It won't be long before locked bootloaders and walled gardens are the norm for the PC world just as they are for phones. Probably only a few more years before it becomes extremely difficult to buy a computer that isn't locked down, and shortly thereafter, even if your computer is still unaffected, you'll stop being able to use it for anything involving media watching, banking, or even games. This is already happening on phones, it will happen on computer too.

Re:as a workaround

[amorsen]

a) The Lenovo lock wasn't done by UEFI, it was done by preventing the hard drive controller from speaking AHCI. Linux does not have a driver for Lenovo's proprietary RAID protocol. Lenovo came to their senses.
b) Nothing stops a UEFI BIOS from keeping a whitelist of keys.

Re:as a workaround

[Darinbob]

This may fly at home, but it won't work in a professional environment. And the enterprise is Microsoft's last reliable market share, so it would be a very bad move to piss off the enterprise. The whole reason for the student edition of Windows is to keep gullible young people locked into the intended consumer mindset.

Re:as a workaround

[KiloByte]

There's one small detail here, though: there are two keys: one, the "Microsoft Windows Production PCA" is used to sign Windows only, while the other, "Microsoft Corporation UEFI CA" is the one they for antitrust reasons "kindly" allow certain biggest distributions to be signed with. Inclusion of the former is mandatory, while the other OEMs merely "should consider including".

Doesn't sound that ominous yet? Then recall what the way Windows is sold: there's a ridiculously high official price no one pays, and "volume discounts" every single mainstream PC maker gets, negotiated under strict non-disclosure. You can bet that when the time is ripe, all the makers will suddenly fail to include the UEFI CA key (as losing the volume discounts would effectively put them out of business).

And even while the UEFI CA key lasts, you lose the main reason to use Linux rather than some proprietary kernel: there's no way you can edit the kernel, install a non-distro version, build your own modules, etc. You no longer can insert unsigned modules, kexec an unsigned kernel, use a number of facilities that could be used to gain control over your own machine.

And what's the gain for you? Precisely nothing! A thief can still install Windows on a stolen machine, someone who wants your data can boot Windows (or, for now, one of the "blessed" distros). The UEFI CA doesn't sign particular kernel builds but distro signing keys, so you can be assured every three letter agency of US, Russia, China and any other country Microsoft wants to sell their software in do have such a signing key. Thus, the malware the thugs use against your machine on the border will also boot fine.

Ie, "Secure" Boot is strictly negative for you unless you can remove all keys not under your control.

Re:as a workaround

[sl3xd]

Never underestimate the ease you can tell an MCSE that Microsoft will keep his systems secure and easy to manage, and the conviction with which they will follow it.

I certainly know most enterprises I know of require boot-locked machines; my office laptop is absolutely boot-locked.

They do it to prevent a number of boot malware, require whole-disk encryption, prevent tampering, and preventing assholes like me from removing Microsoft Joke.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

The UEFI CA key has signed a bootloader that lets you replace the kernel with a single keypress.

Re: as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Tell me how to enable the option on my acer laptop to add my own UEFI keys then. Acer won't let me on my model.

Re:as a workaround

[Kjella]

This may fly at home, but it won't work in a professional environment.

Well first off rumors of this have been going around for the last 15 years and ever really materialized. But if it did it'll be an either-or, you can either run a stock Trusted Computing DRM-signed OS and watch Netflix or you can get root and install your custom bootloader/drivers/patches/virtualization/other OS but not at the same time. They barely allow 4K/UHD content in software, both streaming and blurays need so much hardware support and DRM standards that it's essentially a built-in set top box. They're almost there simply by not allowing it on open platforms at all.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

in this case, microsoft **REQUIRES** bios lockdown in order to ship a device with 'windows 10 s'. these laptops CANNOT run anything other than the windows 10 "shittier edition" they ship with. the uefi bios will ONLY boot microsoft's code.. not even microsoft-blessed alternatives that you can install on a normal windows 10 uefi system with secure boot will run on these things.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no big reason motherboards would be locked, if you buy a motherboard. So we'll have to avoid OEM systems I think. The biggest issue will be with laptops likely. With OEM desktops, at worst you can most often change the motherboard, wipe the drive and start anew. Special SFF OEMs will be really bad thus, though there's plenty OEMs using industry standards like DTX and ITX too.

With laptops, look for those that come with no OS or with a token OS. They are plenty, and cheaper, and have support for all those useless things like RJ45, HDMI, Displayport, 32GB max RAM on even low end hardware, 2.5" drives and so on.

Re:as a workaround

[thegarbz]

This may fly at home, but it won't work in a professional environment.

If you're using Windows 10 S in a professional environment you have far bigger problems to deal with than a locked down OS. A good start would be firing everyone in IT and starting from scratch.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

My slow assed Q9650 on a LGA775 mobo is looking like more and more fun as time goes on. I'm not a gamer and I don't require so much power that upgrading would even show any real world benefit. Asrock still has new 775 mobos I think but new 9650's are getting rarer and more expensive, the last time I looked anyway. How far up the hardware food chain can I go before all the management engines and UEFI crap bork my computing life?

Re: as a workaround

[Zero__Kelvin]

In fact you CAN'T use Windows to run it. They are trying to confuse people and doing a great job at it. Don't help them. BASH isn't Linux. The various CLI tools aren't Linux. Now we have a whole lot of people thinking they have Linux who have never seen Linux and never will because they think they already have it. This is Microsoft's end game. It has always been their modus operandi. Foster the ignorance and prey upon it. If you run Windows, and you aren't running virtualization software and installing a complete Linux distribution, you aren't running Linux. Don't fall for the trap. The cake is a lie.

Re:as a workaround

[green1]

You miss the fact that you won't be allowed to do anything on your unlocked computer.
Online banking? Nope, go see a teller.
Watching media? Not a chance
Gaming? That will be locked out too

Look at Android, even simple survey apps are starting to check for root!

You'll be able to have an unlocked computer all you want, you just won't be able to do anything with it.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

Please explain how some insignificant hardware manufacture releasing a broken laptop prevents me from installing Linux on my not broken hardware.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean to prevent "assholes like you" from tampering with company property?

Sounds like a perfectly valid reason for an enterprise to require bootlocking. The problem always boils down to idiot end lusers.

Re:as a workaround

[sl3xd]

Like it or not, we have to move from "trust the user" to "trust no one". You aren't the market. Your idiot cousin is. The rest is economies of scale.

It's rare a day goes by that you don't hear about a major new hack hitting any of the major desktop or server OSes. We're finding root-escalation exploits on Linux far too often, to say nothing of Windows.

We can bellyache all day about how insecure ${PLATFORM} is, but requiring "trusted" signed binaries is the closest anybody has come to addressing the "user executes a trojan horse" problem.

Until somebody comes up with a better way to protect our idiot cousins from malware, that's the future we're going to get.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

to this unfortunate problem...you can also just install linux. Believe it or not, you dont need Windows to run it.

This, my friend. The amount of stupidity revolving around this Linux-on-Windows thing is colossal. All this babble is a non-problem; a non-issue.

Captcha: performs

Re:as a workaround

[ChunderDownunder]

fastboot oem unlock

LineageOS have released a patch to mask 'rootedness', so that rogue apps that go sniffing around will find that whether a user roots their phone is none of their damned beeswax.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

I have even worse hardware than that, would like something a bit better than I have (though I have decent RAM size at least)

Umm your computer might support a management engine already! Albeit funnily from what I remember of the recent fuck up, it's only enabled if you have a "pro" version of the chipset. I.e. P35 chipset good (no "management"), Q35 chipset bad ("management"). Exact same hardware I think but market segmentation made the unwanted feature optional (either fused off, disabled or with no working firmware)

Perhaps you could get a Phenom II X4 system with BIOS but that isn't any better than your system. Phenom II X6?
There even are AM3/AM3+ new motherboards that come with BIOS I think (very old low end chipsets like 780G and geforce 7025). The usual weakness these boards have is lousy support or no support for high wattage CPU (some can take a 95W modernish FX CPU but then randomly crap out or throttle). So you would need one of the few better ones with heatsink on the VRMs and official 125W CPU support.
Perhaps you can have e.g. an FX8320E or FX8300 on a BIOS motherboard thus ; you would have to check.

In the unlikely event your Q9650 goes kaput but the motherboard is fine, there are many forum threads that tell how to put a Xeon (LGA 771) on an LGA 775 motherboard ; some stupid pin mod / socket mod is needed. The best Xeon is about the exact same thing as your current CPU, and sells for a fraction of the price.
Also good obviously for upgrading another similar PC with 45nm Core2Duo/Pentium/Celeron.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just in education. I pxe boot all cad workstations in our office (using a bootloader from USB, since it doesn't work properly with the firmware build into many network cards) and you "tag" each mac/ip in Dnsmasq and generate separate boot menu configs for each computer. Each boot config has an option to boot Windows from the local SSD and an option to net-boot ubuntu for Blender rendering, OpenFoam CFD's and FEA caluclations (and memtest and some other tools). The tagging makes it possible to control the order of the boot options per machine (based on an SQL database) This makes it possible to wake-on-lan machines in either windows or Linux remotely, and use them as a linux cluster in weekends or outside office hours, and boot back into windows the next morning.
Any "spare" Windows workstations are relocated to a "cluster" room, with only mains and network plugged in, boot into Linux for 24/7 computation work, and can be pulled out and started back into windows when a windows workstation is needed.
It's also great for making backups: create a file in Windows and write zero's until the drive is full, delete the file and boot into Linux. dd the whole drive, send it through pigz (parallel gzip) and stream the compress drive image to a central server, including all drive sectors outside the NTFS partition, that programs like autocad use to store licensing information.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

You miss the fact that you won't be allowed to do anything on your unlocked computer.

The fact that you have been modded up means it's pretty safe to say that FOSS has spectacularly failed:

"Sorry you can't do anything on your unlocked computer because nothing worth doing is Free Software, it's all rubbish and the only good stuff is non-free".

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

Creative Commons? Free Software? Never heard of them? Small wonder this happens with people like you wallowing in the inevitability of being a slave to corporate computing. There are genuinely things you can do *NOW*:

Support creative commons works instead of Hollywood trash.
Support the FSF
Contribute to the Linux Foundation Support Open Education and OpenCourseWare.

All I ever see here is whining about, and then ultimately pandering to, Hollywood, code.org, Microsoft, etc. For all the comments on stories about Windows it seems a great many of you enjoy being Microsoft's whipping boy by using and supporting Windows (even after Microsoft's many many indiscretions, if they really bother you then stop using it, otherwise STFU) and a lack of support for CC material while you're a slave to Hollywood garbage proves that it's enough for you to complain about it as a means to justify you then rolling over and taking whatever they shove in you.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

There's one small detail here, though: there are two keys: one, the "Microsoft Windows Production PCA" is used to sign Windows only, while the other, "Microsoft Corporation UEFI CA" is the one they for antitrust reasons "kindly" allow certain biggest distributions to be signed with. Inclusion of the former is mandatory, while the other OEMs merely "should consider including".

And this is why there needs to be more effort toward getting people to use Linux. OEMs will support it if there are potential customers but the reality is that customer base is almost non-existent. There is a genuine reason to create disruptive and innovative features that appeal to end users and that is economies of scale. But still after all these years and hundreds of distros there still hasn't been a disruptive innovation to come out of the desktop Linux community.

Whether you like it or not OEMs have no reason to support a second class citizen OS that virtually nobody wants so the obvious thing to do is to make it something that users genuinely want rather than Windows. Some real innovation is what is required, not yet-another-display-system or yet-another-init-system or yet-another-windowing-system, etc, etc.

Up until recently Windows 8 and Windows Vista were used more than Linux on the desktop, seriously! What bigger whack over the head does the community need to tell them something is wrong than that?!?! You can continue to excuse it away or blame whoever all you want but the reality is that the window is closing, the desktop has been an open market for operating systems for decades and Linux has failed to capitalize on that time and time again, if that doesn't change soon then that open market may disappear altogether.

Re:as a workaround

[MoarSauce123]

You could until the makes of Linux decided to make breaking changes so that can no longer install a modern version on my old Toshiba laptop. In all fairness, anything Win 8 and up doesn't install either. So the choices are installing an ancient, no longer supported version of Linux or Win 7. I put Win 7 back on, but since Win 7 is so bloated and inefficient performance is in the toilet. This is one example where crappy new software causes a perfectly fine piece of hardware to become useless. I agree with dinging Lenovo for that move, but likewise we need to call out Apple for refusing to provide (at least legal) means to install OS X on the hardware of our choosing. The hardware in a Mac is off the shelf stuff for the most part, there is really no technical reason aside from drivers maybe to not allow OS X to run on any hardware.

Re:as a workaround

[green1]

It's not the software. Do you know of a FOSS Bank? How about a FOSS movie studio?

Computers aren't just for word processing any more. You can do anything you want to locally, but if you want to interact with the wider world there will be restrictions. Is already started.

I hate it as much as anyone, and lament the loss of the very concept of product ownership, but realistically it's gone. Is just a matter of time now.

Re:as a workaround

[green1]

Movie and TV shows are one thing, sure there's some great CC stuff out there, but it's not what people talk about around the water cooler. But that's only part of it. Do you really think Bitcoin will win against all the banks, credit card companies, and things like Android pay, Apple pay, etc? Because Bitcoin will be your only financial institution if you don't want to go to a physical branch and deal with a human teller for everything. And believe me, those physical branches will start to become pretty rare. But it won't stop there either. Every interaction you have online with any company will require that you are using a "trusted" browser, which will only run on a "trusted" operating system, on "trusted" hardware. And more and more of your interactions will be online.
Forget online shopping, forget managing your utility or telecom accounts online, etc. How long until your ISP devices is too risky to even let you connect to the Internet at all with "unsupported" equipment?

I'm not saying I like it, it scares me a lot to lose the very concept of product ownership, but I see the writing on the wall, and batting some major change that I really don't expect to see, it's a matter now of when, not if. Every step will be sold under the guise of security, even though the real purpose is vendor lock in.

Re:as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you really think Bitcoin will win against all the banks, credit card companies, and things like Android pay, Apple pay, etc?

Cryptocurrencies aren't competing with banks or credit card companies or things like Apple/Android payment systems, in fact banks are beginning to support cryptocurrencies.

Every step will be sold under the guise of security, even though the real purpose is vendor lock in.

Lock in to what vendor? Everything from banks to streaming services support multiple vendors, it is in their interest to support multiple vendors, in fact it would be completely stupid to not support multiple vendors and to instead choose one vendor and try to lock their customers to that one vendor.

Re: as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact you CAN'T use Windows to run it. They are trying to confuse people and doing a great job at it.

You're imagining things, nowhere does Microsoft say you are running Linux on Windows.

BASH isn't Linux. The various CLI tools aren't Linux.

Nobody ever said they were but for practical purposes whether it is Linux or not is irrelevant. What is it that Linux provides that is so unique and innovative to end users that they can't get by running their Linux applications atop the Windows kernel? You can make an ideological argument for open source but if anything the better hardware support offered by the Windows kernel makes it a better choice for end users.

This is Microsoft's end game. It has always been their modus operandi. Foster the ignorance and prey upon it.

No. You're demonstrating the problem that has persisted in the Linux community for decades, I dont see how this can still be so unclear to you:

People do not care about the underlying kernel! They care about running their applications. If Android switched to use the BSD kernel instead of the Linux one that would make a difference to nobody.

Re: as a workaround

[Zero__Kelvin]

It is called "Windows Subsystem for Linux" ... and that alone suggests that you are either dumb as a box of rocks or a Microsoft shill.

Re: as a workaround

[Anonymous Coward]

So what is it you understand "Windows Subsystem for Linux" to mean? If you google "what is windows subsystem for linux" you get a pretty clear answer:

Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) is a compatibility layer for running Linux binary executables (in ELF format) natively on Windows 10. ... This subsystem cannot run all Linux software such as some using a graphical user interface (GUI) or those in need of unimplemented Linux kernel services.

Also as I already said people don't care that it doesn't run the Linux kernel, they care that it runs their applications. In fact given the better hardware support for the Windows kernel it's often going to be advantageous for it to not be running the Linux kernel because then users can run their software and also have a wide range of hardware support, that is precisely what users want from their operating system. Again to that point if Google swapped the Linux kernel in Android for a BSD one none of their users would care because that is not what matters to users.

This is what happens when you confuse your ideological view with what users actually want from their computers, then when this gets pointed out to you you just call the person a shill.

So much for workarounds

[thegarbz]

As noted in various insider releases you could at the time run traditional applications through the Powershell. I'm sure I mentioned that this was an oversight that will soon be closed. Just like the first build which allowed you to disable the Windows Store only "feature".

That's because only apps can app apps!

[Anonymous Coward]

Modern app appers know that only apps can app apps, so appy Appdows 10 S blocks filthy LUDDITE software like LUDDITE Linux and only allows modern appy app apps like Appy App Saga and Appy Birds!

Apps!

Re:That's because only apps can app apps!

[Anonymous Coward]

I appgree with you!

Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

I wanna signal an "SOS" for somebody to please rescue me from this nightmare that Windows of today is. Sadly, Linux is not an alternative.

Re:Windows S O S

[ITRambo]

You can upgrade it to Windows Pro if needed, or just install Linux on an existing laptop. Windows is shrinking in the consumer space. Windows 10 S isn't gong to turn that trend around.

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

Why isn't Linux an alternative? Is it too scary for you? It only took me a month to dive in and figure it out, that was 10 years ago. I will never go back to that shit stained, bloated, virus magnet they call Windows.

Re:Windows S O S

[Lead Butthead]

Apple III from 1980s called, and want its SOS back.

Re:Windows S O S

[green1]

It took you a month 10 years ago, today it would only take a minute, I can't believe the improvements to Linux since I switched completely back around 2000

Linux is far easier to use than Windows, and it "just works", no fiddling with drivers, no searching for codecs, you just use it. Every time I have to sit down in front of a Windows machine for any reason I cringe, they're slow, unintuitive, and incredibly difficult to configure to do what you need. I don't want to spend hours trying to figure out how to do the simplest tasks, I just want it to work.

Everyone who claims Linux isn't the alternative either:
- has never tried Linux
- last tried Linux in the mid '90s
- is a paid shill for MS
- is part of an extremely tiny minority of users who uses one of the very few applications that refuse to run on Linux and have no practical alternative (and even most people who think they belong to this group don't as their app has a replacement in Linux that they haven't been willing to consider, or runs just fine in wine)

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

It took a month only because I had to relearn how an operating system should work. Other than that I had no coding skills except for learning basic on a TRS-80. Once I got the hang of Linux I wondered why I waited so long.

Re:Windows S O S

[farble1670]

Everyone who claims Linux isn't the alternative either:

Everyone who claims Linux is an alternative doesn't use their PC for gaming. Or, is part of the extremely tiny minority of gamers that is happy with the limited subset of games run on Linux.

See what I did there?

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

Every time I have to sit down in front of a Windows machine for any reason I cringe, they're slow, unintuitive, and incredibly difficult to configure to do what you need. I don't want to spend hours trying to figure out how to do the simplest tasks, I just want it to work.

Well, except for things like needing to manually edit javascript and css files to do basic UI customization things that Windows would let you do via the control panel. Granted this gives you much finer control, but anyone without a CS degree is all but stuck with the default look.

Re:Windows S O S

[TheFakeTimCook]

I wanna signal an "SOS" for somebody to please rescue me from this nightmare that Windows of today is. Sadly, Linux is not an alternative.

macOS is.

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

This used to be the case, but it's now a small minority of my Steam library that's Windows-only. Many of those games run fine through PlayOnLinux.

Re:Windows S O S

[TheFakeTimCook]

Apple III from 1980s called, and want its SOS back.

Don't denigrate SOS, man!

It was actually a pretty damn nice OS for its day; too bad it had unreliable hardware to run on for the first couple of years. Then, when the hardware finally WAS reliable, nobody trusted it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Windows S O S

[david_thornley]

- Has one or more pieces of Windows-only software that they use and are unwilling or unable to change.

Re:Windows S O S

[Malc]

This isn't Windows being difficult to use compared to Linux, this is *you* being accustomed to one particular system.

I stopped using Linux on my personal computers around 2006 after a decade because I got so fed up with it. For the last seven years I've been Mac only at work and home, but developing cross platform software I use Windows and Linux frequently in VMs. Don't get me wrong, Windows really irritates me too, but nothing like the way the different Linux desktop environments do with their clunky, unintuitive nightmare UX and poor organisation. The only redeeming feature of Linux for me is the command line, which is basically what I use in tandem with the GUI all day long on macOS.

But like I said, it's what you're accustomed too.

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

Or has wifi drivers that have to be recompiled every single reboot. Yep. Great fun.

Re:Windows S O S

[Anonymous Coward]

> Every time I have to sit down in front of a Windows machine for any reason I cringe, they're slow, unintuitive, and incredibly difficult to configure to do what you need.

Or MSFT has just pushed down updates that break stuff that used to work. (See the removal of drivers for scores of webcam models a while back, or the "Creator's Update" (ha!) which made color management and monitor ICC profiles simply not work.) Linux has a far better track record for software quality than Windows over the past couple of years!

Re:Windows S O S

[Blaskowicz]

Makes me think of Linux Mint (at least Mate, Xfce). Technically you can add many themes but there's very little, almost nothing installed by default.
This is because GTK3 themes break constantly every time Gnome does a little update to GTK3, so when you upgrade your OS to a new version hell might break loose.
Also, Mate sends you to a website (gnome-look) that lists GTK3 and GTK2 themes. Wtf? I obviously want a theme that works on both. Do GTK3 themes bundle a GTK2 theme? I don't know. I don't feel like experimenting let alone do a survey of my apps to know which use GTK2 and which use GTK3.

Cinnamon does have a new website up (Cinnamon Spices) which looks greats : useful themes and applets, good site design. I would only run Cinnamon on powerful hardware w/ advanced and properly working graphics driver though.

Re: Windows S O S

[Bing Tsher E]

It has a rather expensive hardware dongle.

Re: Windows S O S

[TheFakeTimCook]

It has a rather expensive hardware dongle.

So does Linux.

Long gone are the days where you could run a current Linux distro effectively as a desktop OS on some 486-based motherboard with 128k of RAM, gathering dust in your closet. Outdated hardware is outdated hardware, and you'll just as likely want to purchase new hardware to run a modern Linux distro effectively as you would to run a modern version of MacOS.

The only difference is that, when you go to sell that Wintel-cum-Linux computer in 5 years, you'll get about 5% of the initial purchase price (if that), whereas you'll get about 50% for a used Mac. So, with Macs, once you're "on the train", the subsequent "tickets" are actually much cheaper than with the Wintel crapola, and so, over time, Macs actually beat the cost of even the cheapest Wintel crap.

And, as has been proven time and again, it you pump up your Linux box to meet or exceed Mac specs and features, it tends to cost as much, or even more than an equivalent Mac. So where's you "expensive hardware dongle" argument now?

I know you, and you'll keep bleating and moving goalposts to defend your demonstrably-indefensible argument; but why not quit before you make a further ass of yourself?

And with Lixux you get shitty sound support, no mainstream software, iffy WiFi, crappy systemd, a choice of several UIs; all of them crappy, and, perhaps most important to most users new to Linux, a most unhelpful "community", that when asked for help, almost universally derides the one seeking help, rather than actually, um, helping.

Yeah, where do I sign?

Re:Windows S O S

[Kirth]

Everyone who claims Linux is an alternative doesn't use their PC for gaming. Or, is part of the extremely tiny minority of gamers that is happy with the limited subset of games run on Linux.

That subset is about one third of the games that run on Windows. That's around 4000.games. More than you can play through in your life anyway.

VirtualBox

[fluffernutter]

Doesn't Windows 10 S run VirtualBox?

Re:VirtualBox

[fluffernutter]

I guess not if it is in some dumb walled garden.

Re:VirtualBox

[Wootery]

It'll run inside VirtualBox though, right?

Re: VirtualBox

[Bing Tsher E]

Probably there will not be a Windows 10 s installer usable in Virtual Box. 10 s is going to be like a Chromebook, pretty much embedded into the hardware.

Once Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again, Microsoft wants to dictate what you may or may not do with your own property. Not really a surprise though I cannot fathom why anyone puts up with it. Anyone looking to run a Linux distro is likely to be more advanced than the average user so - at most - a simple one-time warning dialog would suffice. But control freaks just love control.

I was sort of hopeful for Windows 10 S when Microsoft made a shocking announcement at Build 2017 that it is bringing Linux distributions to the Windows Store. This gave the impression that students using the S variant of the OS would be able to tinker with Linux.

By not running any Microsoft operating system I'm "able to tinker with Linux" as much as I like. At least the Microsoft branded keyboards are pretty good.

Using Windows is like being addicted to nicotine or some other drug. The effort it takes to get comfortable with another system like Linux is like the withdrawal symptoms. It can be unpleasant at first but you feel *so much better* when you overcome them. Then you start to realize how toxic your addiction was and you wonder why it ever appealed to you so much in the first place.

Re:Once Again

[green1]

Just wait. Soon running Linux will be as convenient as running rooted Android, sure, you CAN do it, but you'll have to give up the ability to watch any (legal) media, or do any online financial transactions, etc.

Computers are going the way of smartphones, completely locked down, and even if you break the lock, you'll lose the ability to do half the things you want to do on a daily basis.

Re:Once Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Phones were the trojan horse for this shit. It could never be introduced into PCs directly because it flew against the spirit of user freedom that PCs always had. But smartphones were a totally new thing without pre-existing expectations, so Apple was free to define the product as it liked and lock it down as much as possible. Then once phones started becoming more popular than PCs (on the backs of idiots who needed 24/7 access to facebook and who never could quite come to grips with the complexity of things like "keyboards") and heavy user restrictions became the new norm, the industry had its opening to backport it all to computers.

Re:Once Again

[thegarbz]

Soon running Linux will be as convenient as running rooted Android, sure, you CAN do it, but you'll have to give up the ability to watch any (legal) media

What do you mean soon? Bluray came out 2006. It thought of the not playing videos a whole 11 years before Netflix did.

Re:Once Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Consoles did it first too. NES, then Playstation. Then Xbox and later, with Ethernet and Internet but locked down consoles.

Anyway, I miss year 1997 : there were plenty of really high end DOS games to play, like Wing Commander IV (although that's also the year Windows-only games really took off)
You could boot Windows 95 in DOS mode, then only run Windows when you wanted to do something with it (like running Paint and Solitaire). Like the Windows 3.1 days.

So, you still had the freedom of not running a stupidly complicated OS with a bunch of crap, you just used DOS that doesn't have any concept of locking you away from anything and was about as braindead as an Apple II or C64 etc.
But the games were advanced : Dungeon Keeper, GTA, Theme Hospital, The Dig, etc.
So I feel hardly impressed by Android and Apple tablets. They pretend to be simple, but they're actually highly complicated : huge pile of runtime, sandbox and API and runtime and sandbox and crap. But they have "follow the yellow line" user interfaces that say things like "enter your credit card", "tap this to send all your loved ones' phone numbers" (we won't tell you where it's sent to) and "click here to make your GPS work better" (mine all your location and all the slutting your wifi/bluetooth chip does). This is completely faked simplicity with the goal of making the user braindead. That's why I have nostalgia of the computer being braindead, while the user instructed it what to do.

Re:Once Again

[Anonymous Coward]

There's an xposed module for that.
Having full access means you can feed whatever you want to these shitty "secure" apps.

Overall, it's a good thing

[DeplorableCodeMonkey]

Based on the description, this sounds like the sort of Windows you would give to a lot of non-technical users. None of my relatives would miss the missing functionality. The fact that it is also coming as a particular flavor of Windows that Microsoft is treating as a special build is actually encouraging because it means Microsoft is not making the same mistake Apple did of acting like they have to choose between pleasing technical users and non-technical users (and in the end, as we see with their hardware choices, the former lost out).

Another thing to consider is that this build will almost certainly reduce the support costs that schools pay without crippling what they can do for most students.

Re:Overall, it's a good thing

[green1]

First they came for the....

Re:Overall, it's a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, does it come with a graphical ping utility then?, because that's what I need the Windows command line for (the other main use is to provide an easy way to shut down. Or I could do some stupid shit like using echo or copy con to write a phone number down.)

I don't give a shit that ping is too "hard" to use or whatever, just let me use it to look at the wifi's packet loss, or to figure out that the network works but the DNS doesn't. Even if that happens rarely it's stupid to assume everything works perfectly everywhere every time all the time.

Re: Overall, it's a good thing

[Bing Tsher E]

... Chromebook market.

Then if history is any indicator, they shut down.

2017 The year of Linux as

[future assassin]

a Windows desktop APP has arrived.

Useless then

[grumpy-cowboy]

No command line of any kind make this "computer" as useful as a Tamagotshi or a Hot Diggity Dogger machine.

Re:Useless then

[Anonymous Coward]

No command line of any kind make this "computer" as useful as a Tamagotshi or a Hot Diggity Dogger machine.

Makes you wonder if Microsoft is intentionally trying to make a product that no one wants.

Re:Useless then

[MightyYar]

Ironically, Tamagotshi "pets" were not furry.

Re:Useless then

[Darinbob]

The Cornballer.

Re: Useless then

[Bing Tsher E]

I once achived a command line on a Macintosh SE. I installed Gnu Emacs on it. The shell within Emacs gave me a command line with primative things like ls and cd.

since command-line apps

[Anonymous Coward]

"...since command-line apps run outside the safe environment that protects Windows 10 S and are able to change the computer in an actual computer"
FIXED!

captha: directly

Re:since command-line apps

[Darinbob]

So Windows 10 S is the effective equivalent of the Speak-and-Spell but for college students?

Re: since command-line apps

[Bing Tsher E]

It's the equivalent of a Chromebook but with Microsoft instead of Google.

Re: since command-line apps

[Darinbob]

Yes, a dumbed down computer. They should market it as such. Marketing as for students implies it's suitable for serious class and lab work.

WHY is this relevant to ANYTHING

[Anonymous Coward]

It's SHIT. Who wants this AIDS on their computer anymore? Just install any convenient distro, or pirate Windows 7, OS X. Hell even Haiku or ReactOS are looking tolerable by comparison with abortion Windows 10.

Unless your computing experience is defined by corporate Windows environment, video games, or peculiar legacy tooling, it's maybe time for the grownups to leave the playthings in the sandbox and frankly never run them outside of sandboxes, haha!

Good thing Linux runs without Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a bit of a late convert to Linux although have tried it off and on as a second boot OS. Now I have become so fed up with Windows I have realistically moved to Linux desktop as my only OS. 10S to me is where Microsoft is taking Windows and its not what I want in a OS. To be locked into a Microsoft walled garden of apps through its store. Sorry, Linux isn't perfect, but it clearly has less barricades looking forward.

Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[TheOuterLinux]

If you want actual Linux with all of its freedoms, you have to install an actual distro.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[thegarbz]

Very few people give a crap about its freedoms.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

So that's like MinGW?

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[JustNiz]

Care to back your generalized sweeping statement up with any actual metrics?

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[thegarbz]

Depends on how you define freedoms:

Go in the street and ask people about patents, closed source, inability to share software, and all the wonderful things that Stallman talks about and if you're lucky they call the men in white coats to get you away from them. If you're unlucky they'll shoot you and claim self defence from a man with a mental condition.

Some "statistics" don't need to be backed up, they are just a given like water is wet, the air is breathable, the sun will rise tomorrow. The onus is on the extraordinary claim to provide proof, and that extraordinary claim is that people chose Linux due to some airy fairy bullshit like freedoms, as opposed to the many other advantages that make more sense.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[TheOuterLinux]

Yeah, but the advantages of today would not have been possible under a proprietary license. A community with the freedom to copy, change, and redistribute built the things in Linux you enjoy. You have people like Stallman preaching the way that they do because they were there when it all started and have seen in real time what lack of "freedom" in software actual does. People are getting too comfortable with easy tech and forgetting that innovation in Linux surfed on the back of principles that were fortunately worked out a long time ago, with freedom being the main takeaway. We have not all forgotten this. Meanwhile, you have younger developers wanting to use FOSS software but step all over the GPL so that they can try to have all the control before they make a profit; most seem to believe in forgiveness before permission. This control and profit is usually being done via cloud computing and API's. What's the point of having open source software if the only choices you get are "take the API token and be happy" or run your own edits on a server? Windows is trying their damnedest to go to kill the desktop and go to cloud computing; Apple uses updates to make 2-year-old hardware unusable; and Google's operating systems already depend mostly on the internet. This leaves only one option left, and that's Linux and the freedoms that come with it as in both literal and figuratively. You need "Stallmans" to keep things balanced and prevent monopolies. Also, with every college student trying to be a social justice major, using "freedom" to describe Linux is probably helping more than anything.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[thegarbz]

I agree 100% with the cause. I just disagree that anyone but a handful of idealists care about it. You see while you're right about the assault on the common long standing desktop, no one cares. They still use their computers they way they always have and in many cases actually enjoy the flexibility of the modern computer handing over everything to a third party and saying thankyou in the process.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[TheOuterLinux]

Maybe instead of "freedom," we need to bring back the classic idea "Linux is fully customizable" approach, especially when Micro$oft really starts trying to push their soon to be Chromebook clones they've been working on. Also, you could take the Apple way and say there's no viruses. Actually, there should really be fewer for Linux than Mac. But, a lot of Linux users are also IT guys using Window$ at their business and hate hearing any argument that places Linux on a pedestal.

Re:Its GNU/NT, not Linux anyway

[thegarbz]

Linux is fully customizable

That is something people can get behind. It has an impact on the end user. :-)

PowerShell too?

[Anonymous Coward]

What caught my attention in the summary more than the lack of support for WSL is the lack of support for PowerShell.

No PowerShell = no manageability. Obviously they're not trying to lure business users with Windows 10 S.

I suspect if the hardware's cheap enough, I might be buying one, but only to immediately blow away the OS and install something that's actually usable.

Re:PowerShell too?

[Anonymous Coward]

> I suspect if the hardware's cheap enough, I might be buying one, but only to immediately blow away the OS and install something that's actually usable.

I suspect that you won't be able to turn off 'Secure Boot' and that there will be some hardware or BIOS/UEFI lock that prevents Linux being installed as only OS or dual boot.

Re:PowerShell too?

[FaxeTheCat]

As it cannot be joined to a domain, it is not for business.

you're right

[Anonymous Coward]

I break the lock and I just don't do those things they lock away. I've stuck to my guns for 20 years and avoided trading convenience for privacy. Back in the day there was an outcry about processor serial numbers now people accept spyware and locked bootloaders willingly.

But then again

[Ol Olsoc]

Neither does Windows

Re:But then again

[GuB-42]

Windows 10 has a built-in Ubuntu Linux subsystem. It is a bit hidden and a bit experimental but it's there.

Re: But then again

[Bing Tsher E]

I installed Interix on Windows 2000 back in... 2000. It was a whole POSIX subsystem including the gnu toolchain. It was originally made by Softway Systems but Microsoft bought them. So it was a product I paid money to Microsoft for. A product that included a complete gnu toolchain.

And this is different from a chromebook

[davide marney]

how, exactly? I doubt you could install Linux on a school's enterprise laptop either.

"Everyone already buys boot" Locked? Everyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

None of my android phones are locked & I bought them. Some were locked when new. The last needed 2 weeks to unlock.

Backwards thinking.

[Anonymous Coward]

So you can't run Linux on Windows. Hmm how about running Windows on Linux.

How can I keep MS code out of my Linux Distro?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can I keep my Linux untainted by Microsoft?

Any kid that wants can run Linux on a flash stick @ school.

homerunner trogdor reference

[Anonymous Coward]

the S is for SUCK

no command line, but "education" focused?

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10 S does not run command-line applications, nor the Windows Console, Cmd / PowerShell, or Linux/Bash/WSL instances

How can it be said to be education focused if it does not allow use of a command line? Almost any serious use of a computer involves the command line, and it is an important skill to have in the real world.

One Step Further

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Linux is installed on all of my classroom computers. It's Windows that we refuse to run.

if only...

[Anonymous Coward]

...there was a way to boot from a live linux CD/DVD/USB -- oh wait, there is!

Linux doesn't run because because

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux doesn't run under windows because its exotic, because its powerful, because because, because its a threat to our "not created here and zero revenue stream" business model. You might like it because it lets you do wildly more with your computer and instead of "trying" to get the computer to do something, you have speed and precision at hand. These are things we cannot allow. You *must* stay confused. You must require our services --our paid services--. You shouldn't try to install Linux either, since that will void a warranty or something, and clearly you are roaming off the reservation. Linux will give you a socially disgraceful disease, and you will go blind and grow warts on your hands if you touch it. So just say no to Linux. Don't ever install it over our revenue stream, and don't tell others about it. Oh, and you need to go out right now and buy more microsoft products. Lots of products. If you have to choose, only the most expensive ones.

seriously!?

[spongman]

notepad.exe doesn't even run on win10s. what the fuck do you expect?

A is foe Apple, S is for School.

[westlake]

I know this will come as a shock to the geek.

But most administrators have neither the desire or the resources to support multiple operating systems and software libraries in the classroom. Nor do they see mastery of the command line as particularly relevant here.

What interests them is a relatively small set of familiar and trusted programs that will run reliably on securely locked down systems and hardware at will give them as little trouble as possible.

Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Well maybe they shouldn't have named it the "Windows Subsystem for Linux" and instead "Windows Subsystem for GNU Userland"

Re: Windows Subsystem for Linux

[Zero__Kelvin]

Or they could have called it "The Windows Subsystem for Fostering Ignorance and Capitalizing on It"

Students want a challenge!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good incentive.