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When AI Botches Your Medical Diagnosis, Who's To Blame? (qz.com)

Robert Hart has posed an interested question in his report on Quartz: When artificial intelligence botches your medical diagnosis, who's to blame? Do you blame the AI, designer or organization? It's just one of many questions popping up and starting to be seriously pondered by experts as artificial intelligence and automation continue to become more entwined into our daily lives. From the report: The prospect of being diagnosed by an AI might feel foreign and impersonal at first, but what if you were told that a robot physician was more likely to give you a correct diagnosis? Medical error is currently the third leading cause of death in the U.S., and as many as one in six patients in the British NHS receive incorrect diagnoses. With statistics like these, it's unsurprising that researchers at Johns Hopkins University believe diagnostic errors to be "the next frontier for patient safety." Of course, there are downsides. AI raises profound questions regarding medical responsibility. Usually when something goes wrong, it is a fairly straightforward matter to determine blame. A misdiagnosis, for instance, would likely be the responsibility of the presiding physician. A faulty machine or medical device that harms a patient would likely see the manufacturer or operator held to account. What would this mean for an AI?

200 comments

  1. Zuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who the fuck else!

    1. Re: Zuck! by TheOuterLinux · · Score: 1

      It'll be ok. Zuck, or as autocorrect says, "Suck," will have its own insurance branch before its all over with. His main company is worth more than all the gold in Fort Knox; he'll be fine. All hail Facefarm.

    2. Re:Zuck! by Beau1080p · · Score: 1

      The blame priority falls from deepest to shallowest pockets. If ol' Zuck can be implicated, trust me, he will.

    3. Re:Zuck! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That white cuck jew n1gger Suckerberg, all his fault.

    4. Re:Zuck! by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      To narrow it down, where blame can not be placed will be found in small print on something you signed or otherwise agreed to.

    5. Re:Zuck! by slickwillie · · Score: 0

      Blame the Russian Hackers.

  2. Differential and management are not the same. by Psychofreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So the computer produces a list of possible diagnosis. This list I understand is called a "differential diagnosis" and may have as few as 2 or 3 items or as many as several hundred.

    I would expect that this diagnosis list, as well as a management plan, to be then put in the hands of a human. After a series of tests I would expect the AI to be consulted again if necessary.

    In today's world and probably the near future, say the next decade, I doubt that medicine will become "autodoc" "robotic physician" the holographic "Doctor" or some "magic cryokit" There will be a human with a powerful tool to aid in diagnosis of the patient.

    Now, what will happen in 50 years, that is to be seen.

    Phil

    --
    Laugh, it's good for you!
    1. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Zaelath · · Score: 1

      I'm more interested in knowing who gets sued if the AI is hacked to deliberately misdiagnose...

    2. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pay my doctor not the AI. I will hold my doctor responsible not the AI.

    3. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1

      who ever makes money from it

    4. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Umm.

      I'm going to guess whoever hacked it?

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    5. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only some insane deranged Luddite would go to an human doctor for medical treatment.

      Everyone here knows that only medical apps can app app all teh healthcare and diagnosis so that apps can app or something.

      Apps!

    6. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by LesserWeevil · · Score: 1

      If medicine weren't so expensive in its present form, I'd agree. What I see happening is 'autodocs' first appearing in pharmacy waiting areas (like blood pressure cuffs today) for a nominal fee for those who can't afford a human Dr. Those who can afford to pay premium rates will, of course, use human doctors. Over time, robotic medicine will become more and more capable, reaching some point where it has rough parity with humans. At that point, insurance companies will demand you try them first and only use humans for a second opinion or odd specialty. After that, medical schools will shut down and humans practicing medicine without robotic supervision will become illegal.

    7. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by TheOuterLinux · · Score: 1

      Anything that benefits the guy with the most money will become the law or be protected from it with legal loopholes unless the guy suing can get a competitor on board to which the cycle just keeps repeating itself. Our technology is evolving faster than our ethics. Hacking a medical AI, which we all know will be remote cloud computing and not an in-house local server, will be the equivalent of hacking a modern 9th grader's graphing calculator during a final exam with an already questionable "grade" for most countries. Like we need more doctors half-assing their way through school so a machine can make them six figures a year. Malpractice insurance costs will go down, but only because the AI will have to have it too. And, it won't surprise me if people try to claim AI's as dependents for tax breaks.

    8. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There will be a human with a powerful tool to aid in diagnosis of the patient.

      Until too many patients die unnecessarily because the human is second guessing and overruling the AI. Even today, a nurse with a flowchart will have fewer misdiagnoses than a doctor. An AI should do even better.

    9. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      I expect in 10 years, 20 max, it will be illegal in civilized places to diagnose and prescribe treatment without consulting a computer, just like it is now without consulting a medically trained person.

      This is going to change fast, as soon as it becomes widely apparent how bad the medical profession is at doing this stuff.

    10. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure how likely it is for the AI to be hacked, if it's internal workings are as opaque as has been suggested.

    11. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AI needs to be trained just like graduating students. This task cannot not be left to only programmers or to few "domain experts" selected and engaged by the companies, or to the crowd-at-large.

    12. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Blah blah irrelevant.
      Just like with any tool, you blame the operator. Ford doesn't get a free pass if a welding robot fails to weld properly and a car falls apart killing the people inside.

      Now if we're talking about sentient AI, then it's a worthy topic of discussion. At least in terms of fantasy and sci fi, since sentinet AI is just a pipe dream.

    13. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hacking AI? Easy, just hook it up to Trump's Twitter feed. Guaranteed to screw anything up ;)

    14. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nurses are far better placed for making diagnoses: They have far more and richer data about the history and progression of the patient. Doctors âtypically only get a snapshot and a summary at the diagnostic consultation. What does this mean? Doctors really should consult with nurses and actually value their views when diagnosing patients.

    15. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by ranton · · Score: 1

      I pay my doctor not the AI. I will hold my doctor responsible not the AI.

      And ultimately some insurance company pays you regardless of who is at fault.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    16. Re: Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That isn't a very good analogy, because it is not likely going to be just because the AI randomly glitches and does something odd that could be caught by QA and other checks (plus sanity checks can still be done by medical staff).

      At some point computer based diagnosis can become more powerful and more likely correct than a human doctor, but still not perfect (even if limited to a particular domain, this question is still relevant). A car analogy would be like seat belts, where you are safer wearing a seat belt than not. However, in the case you drive off a bridge by accident and die due to not being able to remove the seat belt fast enough, is the car manufacturer held responsible for installing seat belts? What if such blame and associated costs makes the car companies decide it is better to not install seat belts instead of risking lawsuits from the rare person killed by seat belts? You could choose to not wear the seat belt, basically bettering your chances of drowning in your car are higher than getting into a collision, just as a human doctor could choose to ignore the diagnosis of a computer program once it has been demonstrated to have fewer misdiagnoses than a human doctor.

    17. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I work in this field. There's a disconnect between what the hospitals are actually doing and what the researchers are proposing.

      The researchers are proposing opaque systems based on deep learning. Mark my words: you will never see this in wide-spread use at hospitals. Doctors aren't comfortable with it (nor should they be). I work in hospital readmissions and the most popular system (called LACE) has terrible predictive abilities, but is transparent and jives with what doctors already know. There are much much much more accurate systems, but transparency trumps all.

      What hospitals are actually using are simple clinical decision support systems that may not spit out a super-hyper-mega accurate discrete answer, but provide a bunch of evidence for the doctor to process. This is usually in the form of statistics.

      There's a huge room for growth if researchers would meet in the middle. Provide information retrieval systems which find similar patients. Use probabilities instead of discrete classifications. Rank features/variables that were most important in arriving at your answer. That would increase clinical staff's confidence in systems and we might actually see some practical adoption. Until then, this is mostly going to remain in labs and research hospitals.

    18. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the computer produces a list of possible diagnosis. This list I understand is called a "differential diagnosis" and may have as few as 2 or 3 items or as many as several hundred.

      I would expect that this diagnosis list, as well as a management plan, to be then put in the hands of a human. After a series of tests I would expect the AI to be consulted again if necessary.

      In today's world and probably the near future, say the next decade, I doubt that medicine will become "autodoc" "robotic physician" the holographic "Doctor" or some "magic cryokit" There will be a human with a powerful tool to aid in diagnosis of the patient.

      Now, what will happen in 50 years, that is to be seen.

      Phil

      I work for a healthcare startup using deep learning and this is exactly what is being done in the field currently.

    19. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      I work in this field. There's a disconnect between what the hospitals are actually doing and what the researchers are proposing.

      The researchers are proposing opaque systems based on deep learning. Mark my words: you will never see this in wide-spread use at hospitals. Doctors aren't comfortable with it (nor should they be).

      Of course the deep learning systems are not yet at a point that they could be even considered for widespread use, but that's a long way from never.

      Medical diagnoses involve high amounts of variables which is why right now the best way we can use machines is to work with probabilities. However there's nothing about the diagnostic process itself which would make it likely that human beings are forever going to be the best at it.

      If we have systems in the future which have access to all the same amount of information as the human physicians do, then it's just a matter of training them to handle/cross-reference the data. If the machines knows the vitals of the patient from the time of his/her admission, every med he/she has been given, operation that have been done, imaging (there are already systems in use that can read images and these are being developed rapidly), and so on, there's absolutely no barrier preventing these systems from achieving and eventually exceeding human capabilities and accuracy in diagnostic work.

      None of these means the results are to be blindly trusted, but it's just shortsighted to assume we should aim to keep humans in the loop forever, when it's by all accounts likely that we can build systems that will become better and more reliable at diagnosing than humans are, and no patients need to be risked in developing these because we can use the accumulating data from human physicians to train the algorithms until their accuracy is on par with the human doctors.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    20. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The institution of the medical doctor is a very imbedded one. Medical schools are selective not because they will weed out the bad doctor, but to keep the supply of doctors down to prevent the institution from getting over saturated and lowering the paycheck amount. Then there are rules and regulations for what mid-level providers can can can't do. So you may go to a nurse practitioner (NP) it may appear that they are doing the same job as a MD but a doctor will need to sign off on the work and recommendations. Oddly enough many insurances will not pay directly for these mid-levels which could be a huge cost savings.
      Now with all that said AI will not get the final say. With all the money and authority that goes to the doctor the flip side is the responsibility falls on them too. AI can give suggestions as they can process more information faster and show what seemed to work in the past with similar conditions. However the doctor will need to look at the data and accept or reject that info. So the blame will go to him.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The AI runs on data. Change the data you get new results. Clear the flag that a particular diagnosis restriction affects a gender and you will have woman being diagnosed with prostrate problems. Flood information with one sided data and that rare problem will seem common.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    22. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These /. submissions are needlessly black and white in this way again and again. AI assisted diagnosis is all that has been talked about recently, not some Elysium automatic healthcare revolution.

    23. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Aside from a human likely remaining in the loop; TFA seems to overstate the urgency of the 'who screwed up?' question.

      In practice(literally and figuratively in this case), mistakes are considered a bad thing; but getting medical diagnosis error-free(especially if you include things like "patient has multiple conditions contributing to their reported symptoms; doctor correctly diagnoses one of them; but that correct diagnosis delays treatment for the other one") is sufficiently difficult that mere error isn't generally considered a matter of culpability unless it's accompanied by negligence or recklessness; or so egregious that it counts as malpractice no matter how earnestly you did it.

      Expert systems 'feel' wrong, since assigning blame(in the moral sense, we blame machines in practical terms all the time) to them doesn't feel right; but it's not as though the current state of things actually involves moral blame for every mistake. Unless egregious or accompanied by aggravating factors, there are a lot of just plain mistakes; no moral blame assigned, just technical Q/A or process-evaluation type blame, which isn't terribly foreign to computers and expert systems.

      There's also the fact that, unless a doctor more or less straight up murders a patient; the 'blame' in a financial sense tends to get kicked up the chain to whoever allowed the doctor to practice(either 'implicitly allowed', if the doctor is sued personally and their malpractice insurance eats the bill; since the insurer effectively deems the doctor fit to practice by being willing to provide malpractice coverage at remotely affordable rates; or explicitly allowed; if the hospital/medical group/etc. that employs the doctor, allows them to use the OR, etc. is taken to court over the qualify of care in the facility). If the blame is ultimately falling on an organization for having a lousy doctor on staff; it wouldn't be terribly alien to blame the organization in much the same way for bad outcomes produced by relying on a dodgy expert system.

    24. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Human doctors are pretty bad at getting the right diagnosis and treatment in my experience. AI will probably get better than a human relatively quickly (in the next couple of decades), especially if it has better access to sensor data. Humans already rely a lot on computers to interpret media sensors for them.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      "who ever makes money from it"

      More like whoever has money that can potentially be liberated for some noble cause like enriching lawyers.

      Another factor is that a doctor generally has to screw up substantially to be sued successfully. I suspect the same isn't true of an AI computer program which is likely to be held to a much higher standard. That may cause AI to be relegated to an advisory role. "Alexa, I think this dude has cancer, what do you think?" "I think it's just a hangover. Tell him to take two Asprin, lay of booze for a day and call you tomorrow if he still feels rotten."

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    26. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      "I expect in 10 years, 20 max, it will be illegal in civilized places to diagnose and prescribe treatment without consulting a computer, just like it is now without consulting a medically trained person."

      "Windows just crashed again. You'll have to stop that damn bleeding until IT can fix this thing ... ???

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    27. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Now, what will happen in 50 years, that is to be seen.

      Ultimately it is not doctors who have to deal with misdiagnosis, its medical insurers, specifically liability insurance. The same will be true in 50 years, get misdiagnosed by Dr Robot MD, get payout same as if you're misdiagnosed by Dr Meatbag today.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    28. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      "AI needs to be trained just like graduating students. ..."

      Yes, but my impression is that (much of?) the "training" already exists in the form of guidelines that doctors are supposed to, and often do, follow? e.g. Age 77, Male, BP=138/80 = OK. But BP 141/80 = needs medication.

      I could be wrong of course.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    29. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Medical schools are selective not because they will weed out the bad doctor, but to keep the supply of doctors down to prevent the institution from getting over saturated and lowering the paycheck amount.

      No, medical schools are still very selective here in the UK where no one but an idiot would go into medicine for the money.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    30. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      You have it wrong. The list is not to be put in human hands. The human is responsible for wrong diagnostics much more often than the software. This is known for a long time. This was already the case 40 years ago for some specific diseases where the software (expert system) was better than a human to diagnose the disease. Now, the spectrum is broaden because data is available to take advantage of machine learning. It is known, such systems are better than the expert physician at diagnostic. It is beaten only by a panel of experts. A panel of experts to diagnose someone is very rare.

      What do you believe the physician do when performing a diagnostic? Look at symptoms, compare with data, evaluate probability you have disease A, B, C,..., request more tests if he cannot determine between many diseases, iterate. The physician cannot process the extraordinary amount of data a computer can to evaluate the options, probabilities and pick the suitable and best tests to discriminate when in doubt. That's why a physician can easily be beaten by the machine at this game. So, why going back to a physician once you have the best diagnostic possible?

      We can even imagine the machine can also pick the best treatment, provided it is continuously fed with data from million of patients and progress from different treatments for a given disease.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    31. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      is sufficiently difficult that mere error isn't generally considered a matter of culpability unless it's accompanied by negligence or recklessness

      In other words: medicine is based on imperfect information, it's impossible to correctly diagnose and treat anything, and people should stop expecting doctors to get everything right and focus more on getting things less-wrong.

      I'm a fan of exploratory pharmacology, although I don't know if that's considered ethical. I don't particularly care, so long as it's safe.

      I went in for psychiatric care due to ADHD, and eventually discovered my insomnia was severe (I thought I was getting 6.5 hours; I was getting ~2 hours for over a year). I don't have attention issues when well-rested; I'm fidgety and have impulse-control problems. That means my ADHD is inattentive-type when sleep-deprived and hyperactive-type when well-rested. I've also determined the original issue (starting things, working for a few days or weeks, then never finding the motivation to continue) is rooted in anhedonia, and is textbook major depressive disorder even though I don't feel depressed.

      So here's the fun part.

      My first try was Modafinil, because I did not want amphetamine, because I knew I had sleeping issues. Modafinil worked great, and then messed me up bad (extreme depression) after two weeks. I went back and checked out how I was really sleeping for the prior several months and determined my FitBit was reading me as asleep when lying in bed for hours awake; switched to the Sensitive tracker those days and it read my sleep time accurately--at damned near nothing. Yeah, don't use Modafinil to stay up for 2 weeks straight; and don't use Modafinil if you otherwise don't sleep for 2 weeks straight.

      I had tried Phenylpiracetam (not scheduled, not approved; NDRI) to no success prior to getting a psychiatrist, but only did that for a week because it made me really high. A talk with my psychiatrist determined that "really high" was pretty much "there are these feelings when good things happen and I've never felt this before and it's a euphoriant and I'm high as shit!" I told him I needed to get some counseling and figure out if that's anhedonia or just me being high, and he asked a bunch of questions and determined ... it's anhedonia. Put me on Amphetamine.

      Did not like Amphetamine.

      Amphetamine hits me really hard. At 10mg XR it makes me anxious and depressed; at 20mg XR it causes severe overdose symptoms (I pissed brown and lost 6 pounds in one day, including muscle mass); at 15mg XR the anxiety goes away and I feel mildly depressed. If I take one, I don't sleep for at least 26 hours. I stopped taking them while taking Belsomra (Suvorexant), which allowed me to sleep but didn't make me tired.

      Belsomra is hard to get covered by insurance, so I tried Eszopiclone. I was high as shit 24/7 and nearly drove my car into another car 20 hours after the last dose, but it didn't help me sleep. 12 days in I stopped taking it, went through really bad withdrawal for one day, and decided GABA drugs are not for me. To hell with that.

      It goes on and on. I've determined serotonin drugs are not a thing for me--that means all those SSRI anti-depressants are a no-go. SAM-e (at 800mg) and Atomoxetine (at 80mg) both cause serotonin mania; Atomoxetine at 60mg causes serotonin-related problems (tachycardia, fatigue) that go away at a split 25mg dose. Atomoxetine is an SNRI that primarily occupies NET; once NET is 98% occupied, an increase in dose rapidly occupies SERT and jacks up the level of Serotonin in your brain. I like Atomoxetine at lower doses, as it eliminates the excessive poor behavioral impulses and leaves me with something I can control; it also allows me to sleep, so I don't need any sleep drugs.

      I've been pushed into suicide-grade depression, driven insane, and outright poisoned. As a patient, I can handle it: I'm extremely psychologically-resilient

    32. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by clodney · · Score: 1

      So the computer produces a list of possible diagnosis. This list I understand is called a "differential diagnosis" and may have as few as 2 or 3 items or as many as several hundred.

      I would expect that this diagnosis list, as well as a management plan, to be then put in the hands of a human. After a series of tests I would expect the AI to be consulted again if necessary.

      The scenario you describe is the easy one, because the AI generates a (potentially large) list of potential diagnoses, and the human doctor uses that as input to their decision making process. In that case, the human doctor is still in charge and ultimately responsible.

      For a more troublesome case, consider the article (https://techcrunch.com/2017/05/08/chinese-startup-infervision-emerges-from-stealth-with-an-ai-tool-for-diagnosing-lung-cancer/) I read recently about automated lung cancer detection from CT images. Suppose that all CT lung images are automatically screened by the AI for lung cancer. And further suppose that as a cost saving measure the lung cancer screening is farmed out to the AI and not read manually as well (given medical costs and the expense of trained radiologists, this is not at all implausible, at least in poorer locales). Just to make it fun, assume that a human radiologist gets it correct 85% of the time, and the AI gets it right 88% of the time.

      Now assume that you or a loved one is one of the 12% that the AI gets wrong. At a population statistics level, the AI is doing better overall than a pure human read, and because it is less expensive, more screenings were done catching even more cancers overall. Your case was missed, and it sucks to be you, but is there even any liability here? Overall, the AI is saving lives, and a priori, you had no way of knowing that your individual outcome was going to be worse.

    33. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      So, why going back to a physician once you have the best diagnostic possible?

      Because humans are able to access and interpret a wider array of information. We see patterns in how people walk, how they breathe, and how the scientific analysis of data provides a particular diagnosis in detectable situations where a different diagnosis is correct.

      Sometimes it's 0.01% likely that other diagnosis is correct, given the data you understand; and some available data you can't yet name or quantify identifies when it's almost-guaranteed the alternate option is the correct one. We call that "intuition" until we can identify the variables, quantify them, and feed them into a machine or training course to include them in the documented diagnostic criteria.

      Doctors and nurses will begin to notice patterns of the AI giving a certain list of likely diagnoses when specific symptoms are present when some different diagnoses is correct. They'll notice that if the diagnosis list or the symptoms are different, then the alternate diagnosis is not correct. In other words: they'll start recognizing error conditions and failure modes, and identifying not just when not to trust the machine, but what the machine should have selected for.

      Working rigidly from a procedure means ignoring failure modes no matter how consistently you can spot them. Humans do the equivalent of modifying the deep-learning algorithm on the fly.

    34. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Yeah. You poor victim. Being forced to pay a highly trained and educated professional the same as what you might pay for mindless luxuries or consumer goods.

      Basic medical care is only "expensive" if you're on food stamps.

      Spoiled entitled ingrate brats.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    35. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      You must be joking. Even well trained nurses will go to pieces over situations that are clearly not a problem. They simply don't have sufficient knowledge.

      The nurses that don't do this are already fulfilling the role of quasi-doctor and they are nearly as well trained as one.

      Your average nurse has enough trouble with basic nursing duties without trying to pretend to be a doctor.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    36. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Those few "domain experts" are the only ones with enough of a clue. The fact that this is the case is precisely the sort of problem these systems are trying to solve.

      Your average doctor doesn't have the breadth of knowledge to handle every obscure diagnosis. Bridging that knowledge gap is really the value of an overpriced, overhyped version of pubmed.

      The current training regimen is part of the problem.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    37. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Even in the US, where things can be quite lucrative, you would be an idiot to get into it just for the money. It's an unbelievable grind that would take the most macho workaholic in Silicon Valley and spit him out into little pieces.

      If you've never asked a doctor about this and let him rant, you really have no idea.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    38. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then when the machine goes HAL on us and decides we are better off dead because it will be better for the objectives, can we sue the crowd at large?

    39. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      It should actually be the opposite right now

      The human's diagnosis and management plan should be double checked by the AI, not the other way around

      AI diagnostics is very good at catching all the "routine" findings, not so much at outliers. Human experts are better at catching outliers and novel cases, but will sometimes miss the "routine" ones for various reasons (e.g. fatigue etc...)

      When you have the AI go first, it's results *further* constrain the human's diagnosis, leading to the outliers and novel cases being missed. Essentially the human just confirms the AI results and doesn't do any more work. This is the worst of both worlds - you're getting the weaknesses of both the AI and the human compounded together.

      When you have the human go first, they're more likely to catch the outliers and novel cases, and then any of the "routine" results will be caught by the AI if they were missed by the human. This way you get the *best* of both worlds - is double plus good, yes?

    40. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Aside from a human likely remaining in the loop; TFA seems to overstate the urgency of the 'who screwed up?' question.

      ...

      There's also the fact that, unless a doctor more or less straight up murders a patient; the 'blame' in a financial sense tends to get kicked up the chain to whoever allowed the doctor to practice...

      Indeed.

      Doctors probably get most diagnoses correct, mainly because most people are sick with common problems. When it comes to non-common causes, doctors get it wrong, probably every day. I would bet that doctors are basically making wild arsed guesses for 10% of the people who walk in the door, really nothing better than even a very crappy AI could do, and those guesses are often wrong.

      Does it matter? To the patient, yes, obviously, but the majority of patients end of getting at least a bit better regardless of what the doctor does. Nobody in the medical field particularly cares about a patient suffering due to a wrong human doctor diagnoses unless that patient dies, and an autopsy shows an egregious error. There are no consequences. There is often no "truth table" to better train your human (or AI) doctor without a corpse.

      So when we consider AI doctors getting it wrong, we have to put it in the context of how human doctors are judged.

    41. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I can put off luxuries. When I've got an infection or heart attack, I need medical assistance then, not after my next paycheck.

      Also, basic medical care is expensive, at least in the US. It's not expensive if you don't get sick, but you can rapidly come down with something expensive. I wasn't actually budgeting for a heart attack, for example. Many drugs that you might wind up needing are quite expensive. Many people will have trouble affording another $100/week.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    42. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One thing an opaque deep-learning system could do is suggest possible diagnoses for the doctor's consideration. Sometimes doctors just overlook possibilities.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    43. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      AI diagnostics is very good at catching all the "routine" findings, not so much at outliers.

      I'm not so sure about that. Humans will generally tend to think a disease is something they're already familiar with. Given hoofbeats, they look for horses. An AI can be programmed with a very large amount of data, which will generally have good information on outliers, so it might be better at spotting the occasional zebra.

      (This depends on the doctor, of course. There are places where doctors will be prone to find zebras even when they aren't there.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    44. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      I pay my doctor not the AI. I will hold my doctor responsible not the AI.

      And ultimately some insurance company pays you regardless of who is at fault.

      Perhaps!

    45. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure about that.

      Your certainty isn't required. This is a strong empirical result from studies done on computer aided diagnosis.

      The problem stems from the fact that AI systems are very strongly general (e.g. machine learning creates a generalization or abtraction from the training data), this specifically waters down and essentially excludes input which might still be pathological but deviates from the abstraction.

      One of the most significant differences between people and the majority of machine learning AI systems is that people are much better at recognizing exemplars they have previously seen and "extra list features" (input which was not present at all in the training data), but not so good at recognizing *every* instance that matches the abstraction (i.e. we tend to miss boring, repetitive stimuli and focus on novel ones)

      AI responds MUCH better to input that matches the generalization, but not as well to specific exemplars from the training set. (e.g. the AI's recognition "score" is always higher for a new input that is close to the learned generalization, than it is to an item from the training data that doesn't match the generalization as much). Humans are the opposite.

    46. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      I would expect that this diagnosis list, as well as a management plan, to be then put in the hands of a human. After a series of tests I would expect the AI to be consulted again if necessary.

      Aren't you assuming that the human can understand how the AI reached the conclusion it did? If the machine performs statistically better than a human, then why would anyone ever overrule its decision?

    47. Re:Differential and management are not the same. by LesserWeevil · · Score: 1

      Medical care in the US *is* expensive. Many of the same forces driving automation at the low end ($15 minimum wage) are also affecting how payors (insurance companies, Medicare/Medicaid, etc.) view automation at the very high end. People will pay whatever the market will bear for their own health - payors, not so much. Expect giant leaps in AI driven medicine within the next 5 years. Will it be better than what we have now? Maybe. Will it be more cost effective? Almost certainly.

  3. When the Doctor messes up do you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...blame the parents or the school?
    AI insurance.

  4. How about the doctor that reviewed it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Nah, they never take responsibility for their actions.

    1. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This. About three years ago, my mother had knee surgery on the wrong knee! The hospital she went to uses an X to mark no, but the hospital the Pakistani doctor was from uses X to "mark the spot." She had to use that doctor since he was the only one in the area covered by her insurance. He didn't speak English well enough to understand the head nurse's instructions. She had to pay for the procedure out of pocket since her health insurance wouldn't pay for it since it wasn't needed. She sued the doctor and got an apology, but didn't get any money out of it to reimburse her for what she spent. My parents paid for the procedure out of pocket since they're looking to borrow money to buy a smaller house so they didn't want their credit ruined by not paying. You are correct that doctors are not held accountable.

    2. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It also depends a bit on what you mean by 'AI'. If you mean 'correlation engine' (which seems to be what the media means most of the time it says AI), then whoever decided that it's safe to use it without checking that there's any causal relationship and deployed it without human oversight. If you mean 'expert system', then it's just another tool and depends heavily on the input from the doctor or nurse to work towards a diagnosis. If it goes wrong, either the tool was faulty or the operator was incompetent.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    3. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Exactly. It also depends a bit on what you mean by 'AI'. If you mean 'correlation engine' (which seems to be what the media means most of the time it says AI), then whoever decided that it's safe to use it without checking that there's any causal relationship and deployed it without human oversight. If you mean 'expert system', then it's just another tool and depends heavily on the input from the doctor or nurse to work towards a diagnosis. If it goes wrong, either the tool was faulty or the operator was incompetent.

      My theory is that no one should be allowed to use the term "AI" until an actual AI can convincingly argue for it.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    4. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by tsqr · · Score: 1

      X is pretty damn ambiguous. I've had two cornea transplants. In each case, the surgeon wrote "yes" on my forehead over the eye to be oprated on. And that after three nurses and the anesthesiologist asked me which eye, and verified that my answer matched the chart.

    5. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      Interesting story.

      She had to use this one doctor but insurance still didn't pay for it.

      Sounds like she could have just insisted on a better doctor if she was paying for it herself. Probably could have negotiated a cash rate comparable to the insurance discount.

      These days, there are entire surgical centers that just take the "out of pocket" amount. You end up paying about the same as you would otherwise.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I had laser surgery on my cornea when I was suffering from Anterior Basement Membrane Dystrophy, which seems to mean something like cornea delamination. Anyway, my right eye was taped shut, and I was asked to confirm that I needed the surgery for the left.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    7. Re:How about the doctor that reviewed it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Interesting story.

      She had to use this one doctor but insurance still didn't pay for it.

      You're not thinking logically. Insurance didn't pay for it because it wasn't needed. There was no way to know insurance wouldn't pay for it before the procedure since there was no way to know this Pakistani doc didn't speak English well enough to understand the difference between right and left.

      Sounds like she could have just insisted on a better doctor if she was paying for it herself.

      Again, there was no way to know before that the doctor would make the decision to operate on the wrong knee so there was no way to know beforehand that she would have to pay for it out of pocket.

      Doctors just aren't held accountable for their actions.

  5. Canada? by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They're not even a real country anyway....

    But to be more serious, this is going to become a serious problem soon. Whether it's cars or medical diagnosis or some other AI application. I think promoters of AI underestimate just how outraged the public will be when someone is "killed by an evil robot." Human error we can understand and sometimes condemn. But I think there's the potential for a lot more backlash even for minor incidents with AI -- and even if they likely wouldn't have been preventable by a human doctor/driver/whatever. At that point, it won't matter that the stats say it actually saves more lives overall, if the error or the death is egregious enough.

    1. Re:Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The prevailing opinion here is that the AI only has to be, on the average, at least as good or slightly better than human doing the driving, diagnosing, etc. and it is then perfectly acceptable.

      Although I tend towards your position myself.

    2. Re:Canada? by mentil · · Score: 4, Informative

      Remember the story a few months back on Slashdot about the girl who was held hostage in a hospital, and separated from her parents, because they said she was being given the wrong treatment by her parents due to a misdiagnosis? It'd be pretty difficult for an AI to one-up the evils intentionally committed by humans in the medical industry. Sure it might've been incompetence at first (child abuse is more likely than a super-rare disease) but after a point it was all CYA. Medical malpractice happens all the time, and there are tons of cases of "small-town doctor misdiagnoses rare affliction he'd never seen, patient suffers for it" that never hit the news, yet an AI might never make that mistake. This is why assistants following a flowchart are less likely to misdiagnose than a doctor; we're just replacing the "human reading a flowchart" with a computer program that speeds up the process.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    3. Re:Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just a note, the NHS is UK's health system, not Canada's. The author lives is London, England.

    4. Re:Canada? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Robots have killed people. I haven't seen any great outcry about it. I don't agree with you, and won't until I see some actual evidence.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    5. Re:Canada? by kamapuaa · · Score: 2

      It's not quite like that...they insisted on removing her from a treatment that was working, to a treatment that hadn't worked and was actually hurting their child.

      Sometimes parents and doctors (or even an AI) are going to give a different diagnosis, and it will always be an ethical quandary what to do. However, just as I don't believe parents have the right for their child to skip vaccinations or rely on faith healers, I think this had progressed into a point where the parents clearly were not acting in the best interest of their child, and the hospital did the right thing.

      --
      Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
    6. Re:Canada? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming that blame = liability...it is clear this responder has never had experienced the need to challenge the medical "establishment". Such questions appear sophomoric to anyone who has confronted the collegiate club; as do those who doubt the frequency of occurrence. Certainly we can all agree statistical accuracy, like beauty, relies upon the eye of the beholder and the intent of the aggregator.

  6. AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A misdiagnosis by a human physician can only be analyzed and argued about. A misdiagnosis by an AI physician can be forensically investigated. It can even be perfectly reenacted, both with the same and different inputs. That would allow, for example, a determination of whether the fault was a design flaw or a problem with the supplied inputs.

    This would allow for very precise determination of responsibility. Today, if the patient omits some medically relevant detail and a misdiagnosis occurs, the human physician can only argue that he could have possibly come to a different conclusion with the additional information. With an AI, we can feed the updated parameters to it and actually see whether the result would or would not have been different. If the result would have in fact been different and correct, then the fault lies with the patient, or possible whomever was responsible for collecting the input data. If the result would not have changed, then there is a possible design flaw for which the developer/manufacturer may be held liable.

    In my mind, this can only mean an improvement from where things currently stand.

    1. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      That would allow, for example, a determination of whether the fault was a design flaw or a problem with the supplied inputs.

      But what if it's neither?

      I think that's what TFA is really getting at. Many AI algorithms are opaque nowadays -- you create whatever combination of "neural networks" or whatever the buzzword de jour is for the adaptive algorithms, and then you just feed them a bunch of data. And you wait for the results to seem "good." At that point, you end up with a sort of "black box" that consists of an "algorithm" with a bunch of numerical weightings, etc. that don't have clear meaning. If things don't turn out so well, you tweak a few of the initial conditions and try again.

      The problem with such systems is that we have absolutely no idea how they'll behave at various edge cases. You can never test them against every possible real-world scenario. So it's quite possible you end up with an error that isn't really a "design flaw" in the sense that no one could have predicted the error or even have known that the system would make it (and subsequent analysis of the "raw data" within the algorithm may not even reveal a clear point of failure) -- but it's not an "input error" either.

      Where does culpability fall then? As AI algorithms become increasingly complex, this problem will only get worse.

    2. Re: AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is precisely the point - algorithms can only be as good as their programming, and that again falls squarely into the domain of people. To imagine some kind of magical, knowledge-based omniscience is absurd. I guarantee you there will still be doctors analyzing the data. we are talking about techological assistance, not a technological usurping. Tech people can be so very forest for the trees sometimes, it's maddening.

    3. Re: AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that nobody knows - or can even figure out - how the AI comes to its 'conclusion', not even the designers, and the AI can't explain itself either.

    4. Re: AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Algorithms are only as good as their programming, and doctors are only as good as their education.

      You don't sue Harvard when a doctor screws up, do you? The primary blame would be on the hospitals, who would likely be leasing the AI systems from the programmers. Then if the system continues making the same mistakes (see above, forensic investigation) the hospital starts blaming the programmers.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    5. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A misdiagnosis by an AI physician can be forensically investigated.

      AI as we know it today lacks this very property. Of course for such an important problem the system should not be a one trick pony but employ the hierarchy of techniques, just like educated human reasoning do.

      If the result would have in fact been different and correct, then the fault lies with the patient, .

      Or in the privacy regulation, or in a contractual problem or ..

      or possible whomever was responsible for collecting the input data. If the result would not have changed, then there is a possible design flaw for which the developer/manufacturer may be held liable.

      The system is created from the input data. The manufacturer can only provide the frame and the mechanism the system formation. We don't want over-learned or under-learned systems, so some kind of standardized input should be created, just like medical textbooks and certifications are for humans. Design flaw raising the liability issue would be a system malfunction in a critical moment, such as during a surgery combined with an electric blackout.

    6. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by ausekilis · · Score: 1

      The question then becomes "who is the expert?"

      The programmer may have some knowledge of the medical field(s) that the A.I. will be used in, but likely will not have the in-depth understanding that at PhD with a decade of experience would have. On the flip side, whomever is consulted for accurate diagnoses of the dozens/hundreds/thousands of ailments may not be the one actively using the A.I.

      Is it a design flaw if the A.I. misdiagnoses a rare disease about which very little is known? If so, where does the blame lie? The developers? The experts? The manufacturer? Whomever put the inputs in?

    7. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by ghoul · · Score: 1

      Edge cases happen in the real world too. In fact an AI will have fewer edge cases than a human doctor because an AI can be programmed with multiple doctors' knowledge

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
    8. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Walter+White · · Score: 1

      You're over-complicating this.

      Doctors bury their mistakes. Why should it be any different for an AI?

    9. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by apoc.famine · · Score: 2

      The problem with such systems is that we have absolutely no idea how they'll behave at various edge cases.

      I fail to see how this is a problem, unless these "edge cases" are things that doctors get correct far more often. My suspicion is that they will not be. As a good example, see the recent study that the older the doctor, the higher the patient mortality rate. There was no causation in the study, only correlation, but regardless of the causation, it's pretty darn likely that AI will soon be doing a better job with diagnoses. AI can be updated with modern understanding and recent studies in a way that a brain which has done medicine for 30 years can't be. We can put far more info into AI systems than we can put into a brain, and actually get meaningful decisions out of it. Theoretically, we'll have less bias with AI, as it won't come with cultural/ageist/sexist/racist notions, and will rely upon data.
       
      And as others have pointed out, we can diagnose what went wrong, and then feed it back into the AI systems to learn from. One edge case can instantly be diagnosed and sent to all the AI systems to incorporate in their algorithms. That's going to reduce them even faster, as it will only take a few examples before that particular edge case doesn't happen any more.
       
      As to who's responsible, it's who owns and operates the AI. They chose that over a human doctor. Most likely, they chose that because it's cheaper and/or better than a human doctor. If that's the case, they should be OK with taking responsibility for the misdiagnosis, because AI is a net benefit over employing a doctor. If it's not, then they're idiots, and should get sued for a misdiagnosis. Regardless, the owner/operator of the AI will still likely need malpractice insurance.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    10. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by E-Lad · · Score: 1

      Be wary of this.

      There's a sense of reflection that humans have that I have yet seen AI mimic in a meaningful way, and this is especially important in the realm of very personal - and perhaps embarrassing - medical conditions or situations, the details of which could hold meaningful sway over diagnosis or treatment options.

      In other words, a human doctor who is patient, listening and experienced can "call the bluff" of a patient who might not be volunteering vital information because the patient is embarrassed about it or maybe not even aware that such information might be even relevant... or just plain forgetful. The other end of the spectrum exists as well - a human doc can tell if the patient is handing them a big fish story in order to induce a specific treatment option, or is even displaying a bit of Munchausen syndrome. Will an AI be able to intuit these or will it always flat-out believe the patient?

    11. Re:AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you fucking serious?

      * the AI determines when the AI is responsible?
      * the AI detrmines who else other than AI is responsible?

      are you, for fucking real?

      and you idiots modded this jackass +5 insightful?

    12. Re: AI diagnosis can be forensically investigated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't sue Harvard when a doctor screws up, do you?

      You do. Absolutely. If you can show they knowingly or carelessly taught and vouched for flawed techniques.

  7. Depends on what you mean by "AI" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A true self-aware artificial intelligence? I blame him/her/it and the organization that they work for.

    For anything else I blame the designer and the organization that they work for.

    It's not that hard.

  8. Easy to answer by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The one with the deepest pocket is the one to blame. If others have any resources the ambulance chasers will go after them too.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  9. Complexity kills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When everything has become so complex that nobody can understand anything we're going to be at the mercy of the machines anyway. As with software the error is so diffuse as to be untraceable; there's practically no way to know where a line of code has come from. Similarly in a neural network you'll never know which erroneous sample in the training set tipped the balance. Worse, in AI there isn't even an audit trail so you can never hope to find out.

    It's simple: Handle this like nuclear science.

    When someone living near a nuclear reactor gets cancer we blame it on poor life choices, bad genes or that one cigarette they smoked when they were 12 and found out they didn't like it. Just blame it on something else that makes less money or isn't as hip/cool.

  10. Who other than... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Deez nutz.

  11. A stupid question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A faulty machine or medical device that harms a patient would likely see the manufacturer or operator held to account. What would this mean for an AI?

    The exact same? Hold the manufacturer or operator accountable.

    There IS such a thing as a stupid question. This is one.

  12. Whoever hired him by Trogre · · Score: 3, Funny

    Obviously whoever hired him is to blame.

    After seeing his performance in "Like a Surgeon" I'm surprised anyone would hire him to diagnose anything.

    --
    "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  13. Medical Error? by methano · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm sorry, I just don't believe that medical error is the third greatest cause of death.That's just stupid. Nobody in his right mind would ever go to a doctor if the odds were that high. Does anybody ever question the stats people toss around these days?

    1. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Studies show that over 85% of people just blindly accept stats without engaging any critical thinking.

    2. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99% of those do not have the capacity for critical thinking.

    3. Re:Medical Error? by ceoyoyo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of people questioned that statistic. Vigorously. It held up.

      It's also supported by a lot of other research, ranging from what happens if you force a surgeon to use something as simple as a checklist (it prevents at least one potentially serious error in nearly every single surgery) to what happens if a community loses access to a hospital for some reason (death rates in that community decrease).

      Medicine is the only profession where life-critical decisions are made based on personal expertise and opinion, rather than carefully specified standard operating procedure. It's a weird historical holdover.

      If people knew the real statistics they wouldn't go to hospitals as much as they do, and they'd be much more skeptical about what doctors told them to do. The general public doesn't appreciate those statistics because they have a weird hero worship for physicians, and because the guild of physicians actively suppresses such information. Medical errors happen constantly, but are not routinely monitored or reported, unlike in virtually every other similar profession.

    4. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      apparently that factoid is based off of a single study that recently been released so of course it automatically taken as gospel by the media. Here's how the paper defines "medical error":

      Medical error has been defined as an unintended act (either of omission or commission) or one that does not achieve its intended outcome, the failure of a planned action to be completed as intended (an error of execution), the use of a wrong plan to achieve an aim (an error of planning), or a deviation from the process of care that may or may not cause harm to the patient.

      I dunno, but that definition seems overly broad as to be almost useless. An act that "does not achieve it intended outcome" isn't really an error, is it. Sometimes patients still die even when they receive the best of care.

    5. Re:Medical Error? by Zaelath · · Score: 1

      Really? Because it's presented as an estimate in the paper.

      It's probably about right in the US, and would explain a lot of the unusually adverse outcomes if you're unlucky enough to be admitted into a hospital there, but it's still not a statistic.

    6. Re:Medical Error? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Medicine is the only profession where life-critical decisions are made based on personal expertise and opinion, rather than carefully specified standard operating procedure. It's a weird historical holdover.

      There are lots of professions like this: engineering, airline pilots, police, firemen, military etc. Just like medicine there are standard procedures for "standard" situations and it is up to the people involved to determine which "standard" situation is most applicable and to adapt the procedures for it to the particular situation. This is not a "weird historical holdover" but the best way we have of doing thigs: train for standard situations and use your experience, knowledge and intelligence to cope with the rest.

    7. Re: Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      62% of constipated people don't give a crap.

    8. Re:Medical Error? by Kiuas · · Score: 1

      I just don't believe that medical error is the third greatest cause of death.That's just stupid. Nobody in his right mind would ever go to a doctor if the odds were that high.

      Introduction to game theory. Suppose you have cancer that needs to be operated. The chances of you dying from complications of the operation can be quite high, in double digits even. However the chances of you dying from untreated cancer is 100 %. It's not a difficult choice to make.

      Same for every other scenario: you get into a car crash and are rushed into an ER. Is there a chance something critical like internal bleeding is missed causing you to die? Yes, absolutely there's a chance that happens, but again, does that mean you'd rather prefer to be left to the site of the accident untreated to face a certain death?

      Medicine is the science of trying to prevent people from dying. It should come as no surprise to people that when medicine fails, people often die but you cannot get from that to 'well medicine is useless/dangerous then'.

      Imagine if and when we're likely to improve treatments for common causes of death like heart disease and cancers. It may well be the case within our lifetimes that medical errors jump higher on the list not because we're getting worse at medicine, but because we're getting better. The more people we can successfully treat, the less people will die from the diseases themselves, hence leading to medical errors becoming more prominent as a cause of death.

      --
      "It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
    9. Re:Medical Error? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Depends on how you measure.

      Car accident, head on collision, drunk driver with a BAC of 0.09 fell asleep at the wheel, driver of the car died in hospital from his injuries and someone in the medical profession thinks he may have been able to save him.

      Was this:
      a) Death by accident?
      b) Death due to drowsy driver?
      c) Death due to drunk driving?
      d) Death due to medical error?

      I'll go with e) all of the above.

    10. Re:Medical Error? by methano · · Score: 1

      I figured it out.

      Causes of death:
      1. Heart stops beating
      2. Stops breathing
      3. 1 or 2 happens with a Lawyer present
      4. Profit

    11. Re:Medical Error? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I just don't believe that medical error is the third greatest cause of death.That's just stupid. Nobody in his right mind would ever go to a doctor if the odds were that high. Does anybody ever question the stats people toss around these days?

      Speaking of statistics, there's damn near a 100% chance you will not treat yourself properly with no medical training or equipment.

      If a situation dictates you need to see a doctor, then anyone in their right mind would likely accept the risk.

      If you're healthy, then the overall risk is fairly low, because you may only see a doctor once or twice a year. If you really were worried about death, stop getting into moving vehicles. Shit you do every day is far more likely to harm you.

    12. Re:Medical Error? by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      "Sometimes patients still die even when they receive the best of care."

      I've been told that there's a substantial chance some of us might die sooner or later.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
    13. Re:Medical Error? by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > if you're unlucky enough to be admitted into a hospital there

      It's much easier than anywhere else. All of that money we "waste" means we have more capacity. Because of of a Republican president, hospiatls have to take you for life threatening conditions regardless of your ability to pay.

      Lay off the media narrative.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    14. Re:Medical Error? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      By that definition, everyone that dies of cancer while being under treatment would be counted as an error.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    15. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speaking of statistics, there's damn near a 100% chance you will not treat yourself properly with no medical training or equipment.

      If a situation dictates you need to see a doctor, then anyone in their right mind would likely accept the risk.

      If you're healthy, then the overall risk is fairly low, because you may only see a doctor once or twice a year. If you really were worried about death, stop getting into moving vehicles. Shit you do every day is far more likely to harm you.

      It is a 100% chance that your life will end in death at this point so why bother going to a doctor anyway? None of them have a cure for the 100% fatal disease called life.

    16. Re:Medical Error? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      Speaking of statistics, there's damn near a 100% chance you will not treat yourself properly with no medical training or equipment.

      If a situation dictates you need to see a doctor, then anyone in their right mind would likely accept the risk.

      If you're healthy, then the overall risk is fairly low, because you may only see a doctor once or twice a year. If you really were worried about death, stop getting into moving vehicles. Shit you do every day is far more likely to harm you.

      It is a 100% chance that your life will end in death at this point so why bother going to a doctor anyway? None of them have a cure for the 100% fatal disease called life.

      Chances are we do not want to solve for the disease of life. Not only would our fragile planet not be able to handle it, but it would tend to destroy the concept of humanity. Social media has done enough to bolster global narcissism. I can't imagine the God complex that would ultimately be created with immortality.

    17. Re:Medical Error? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a Raymond Smullyan murder mystery.

      A, B, and C are traveling in the desert and rest at an oasis. B and C both hate A, so B puts poison in A's water bottle and C arranges that it will start leaking badly a little while after being filled. A fills his canteen and rides off on his camel. He finds his water bottle is empty and dies of thirst. Who killed him?

      Did B kill him? A never touched the poison. Did C kill him? All C did was remove poison, not drinkable water.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have quite the stink of your own narrative there. There's plenty of waiting and delays in our supposedly "higher-capacity" medical system. Maybe not if you're really wealthy I suppose. And because of that republican president you mention, everyone else pays for those people with life threatening illness who can't pay. On top of our own payments to a for profit corporation.

      And hey, thanks to another round of republican legislators, we can all look forward to the return of the term "Pre-existing condition"!

    19. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > to what happens if a community loses access to a hospital for some reason (death rates in that community decrease).

      Surprisingly, mortally ill people go to hospital, which means many people die there rather than dying in the street or at home. Many dead bodies get carted to hospital just to find a doctor to confirm the death and fill out the death certificate, which also skews the results. If you don't have a hospital in a community, death rates decrease in that region because the deaths get recorded elsewhere, not necessarily because that many less people die. It is not just that doctors can and do make mistakes that kill patients, but the system is set up so that many deaths are only recorded in a hospital.

      Medicine should be practiced outside of hospitals with an emphasis on prevention and sustainable wellness well in advance of predictable crises. But that is not always possible and the hospital as an institution remains the home of the last-ditch desperate effort to save a life.

    20. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just don't believe that medical error is the third greatest cause of death.That's just stupid. Nobody in his right mind would ever go to a doctor if the odds were that high.

      Introduction to game theory. Suppose you have cancer that needs to be operated. The chances of you dying from complications of the operation can be quite high, in double digits even. However the chances of you dying from untreated cancer is 100 %. It's not a difficult choice to make.

      That's simplified beyond usefulness.
      You have to properly account for the difference between "dying tomorrow" on the operating table vs "dying 10 years from now" from the cancer.

      This is particularly relevant to cancer because frequent screenings and early treatment before the cancer reaches the stages that are actually life threatening is the standard procedure. However not all cancers become life threatening if left uncreated, and many take a very long time to reach that point. So the risk of dying from a procedural accident during treatment could very well be worse than the risk of dying from cancer simply because 3% chance to die next week is much more impactful than 70% chance to die 30 years from now.

    21. Re: Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sorry for asking, but how exactly are you posting here?

      And what are Internet speeds like where you are...?

    22. Re:Medical Error? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA no
      in Australia for example, be sick, walk into hospital, be admitted, that's it

    23. Re:Medical Error? by Zaelath · · Score: 1

      It's like you're replying to someone else, but partially quoting me, and I certainly wasn't trying to convince the faithful.

    24. Re: Medical Error? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Well to give you a Quantum of Solace it's clear I'll Die Another Day. You Only Live Twice so I still have one left.

  14. Perhaps nobody? Shit sometimes happens. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why does someone need to be blamed? Mistakes happen. Nothing is 100% perfect. Not humans, not AI. Can't you see how detrimental your culture's 'OMG gotta sue someone claim money someone is ALWAYS liable' mentality is?

    1. Re: Perhaps nobody? Shit sometimes happens. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd go farther, and say that a misdiagnosis is not always even a mistake. The best doctor or AI will choose the most likely (or most cautious) course, given the information available. But no disease presents itself exactly the same way in every case. If one makes the best rational choice, it's not a mistake, even if it turns out to be wrong (as it sometimes will).

    2. Re: Perhaps nobody? Shit sometimes happens. by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      That's why you'd use as many symptoms as practical to give an initial list of likely diagnosis, go off and perform more specific tests and feed that back to the AI. It should be possible to rapidly converge the differential analysis on a small set of candidates.

    3. Re:Perhaps nobody? Shit sometimes happens. by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > Why does someone need to be blamed?

      Some errors are actually gross incompetence and the offending party needs to lose his license.

      "Perfection" is not required. Some degree of competence is. Any doctor should be better than a random layman. Any new treatment should be superior to alternatives. That goes for the schmuck pretending to be a physician.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  15. Medical mistakes? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    Most medical mistakes that result in death are not caused by misdiagnosis, though that does occur. Most of them are from a combination of surgical mistakes and human error while dispensing/choosing medication. There are a lot of much easier ways to reduce medical mistakes without going so far as to replace doctors with a computer.

    Even if the only thing we did was require that every packet of medication was tagged with a barcode and require that appropriate people scan the patient's chart and the barcode prior to dispensing it to verify that it is the medicine prescribed, we'd save a decent number of lives.

    And if computers also did checks for contraindications (giving aspirin to someone with a history of bleeding ulcers, giving antibiotics in conjunction with Lipitor, giving any number of drugs with MAOIs, etc.), it would save even more lives.

    Notice that neither of these even requires AI. They just require proper electronic medical records and some pretty basic coding skills.

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    1. Re:Medical mistakes? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Most hospitals have e-records these days. I would blame EPIC and consorts for screw-ups these days, E-Record systems seem to have a less than 95% uptime.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:Medical mistakes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a hospital and it's a constant uphill battle to keep Epic running. To be fair, any time anything like the network, Active Directory, Citrix, etc. goes down Epic goes down as well, so that might be contributing to the high downtime rate. A lot of stuff is involved and when any of it fails, it's all counted as Epic downtime. Also Epic's always been very good at patching the actual bugs in Epic.

    3. Re:Medical mistakes? by vtcodger · · Score: 1

      Y'know, 15 years or so ago, I had a part time job managing a network of a hundred or so Windows 9 PCs and a handful of WFWG PCs too incapable to even run Win95. Novell Server. It didn't crash.

      Sometimes (about every third thunderstorm) we lost the internet for a few hours. Every now and then a PC died. But the network didn't crash. ... Until expert help tried to modernize it

      Then it crashed.

      A lot.

      Maybe there is something to be said for simple and reliable.

      --
      You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
  16. this is retarded by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

    had to say it

  17. You didn't get a second opinion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Than it's you're fault. This is how AI is gonna kill people first, blind belief in it.

  18. If a tree falls in the forest, is there a sound? by shanen · · Score: 2

    Is it too early to be disappointed in Slashdot again? Maybe someone will post a funny joke that actually gets some funny mod points? Ditto insightful, eh? Even an actually interesting or informative comment? Not holding my breath. Short summary: No such luck yet (and including keyword searches).

    Ever hear the old philosophy joke: "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, does it still make a sound?"

    The equivalent question for today's feeble article is: "If a corporation's AI botches your diagnosis and there is no one to sue, does your death still matter?"

    You may safely anticipate that the EULA will protect the AI from liability much more than it protects the patient from mistakes or software glitches, no matter how egregious and flagrant. Actually, the hierarchy of protection will probably go something like (1) Corporation that created the AI, (2) Corporation that is licensing the AI, (3) The hospital corporation, (4) The doctors who use the AI, and so on. They may remember to include the patient somewhere in there, or maybe not.

    Compare to Dr Mayo's motto: "The best interest of the patient is the only interest to be considered..." The current incorporated Mayo Clinic still mentions patients on the website, but I couldn't find such a strong form.

    Not sure what the trigger was, but I recently realized that individuals don't count now. It's only the biggest corporations and political parties that matter. I had still been clinging to some delusions from my "respect for the individual" days, but now the individual is just a cog, and the only question is which cog can do the job most cheaply before being discarded. Trigger might have been the book Hitlerland , which has NO relation to #PresidentTweety, since it was published some years ago. Not even sure if I want to recommend it, though it's still bothering me...

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  19. The need to blame will whither away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Our desire to place blame is partly due to our nature of always trying to understand in absolutes processes to complex to ever go there but mostly due to our current economic system which rewards those who blame.

    As the necessity for people to work is automated away, many of us are going to choose to be satisfied with what we can have without working in order to get off this silly train of always trying to be better than our neighbors. We're tired of it.

    We're not going to continue working to climb higher when where we are at is fine, and we aren't going to care who is to blame when something that is way better than it was before is still not perfect.

    When you're not busting your butt every day for nothing but vanity, you become a lot more forgiving.

  20. Stupid by ceoyoyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a stupid question that illustrates a misunderstanding about what diagnosis is.

    If a fortune teller fails to predict you're going to get hit by a bus tomorrow, who's to blame, her, her crystal ball or it's manufacturer?

    Physicians misdiagnose patients all the time because diagnosis depends on a variety of imperfect information and very often cannot be done accurately. That is nobody's fault.

    Physicians also misdiagnose patients all the time because they aren't very good at keeping up with new developments in medicine or are otherwise negligent. That's their fault.

    An AI could be wrong for the first reason. If so, nobody is at fault. If the AI is wrong because of a manufacturing defect, the manufacturer is at fault, or the supervising physician is, if they insist on being in that position.

    1. Re:Stupid by llZENll · · Score: 1

      IMO the entity you get the diagnoses from is to blame, the doctor/hospital most likely, you sue them, they have insurance and are covered, and they go after the hospital, diagnostic AI, manufacturer, or who/whatever else is in the pipeline. Ultimately is doesn't matter though as you can sue any of these yourself.

    2. Re:Stupid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a fortune teller fails to predict you're going to get hit by a bus tomorrow, who's to blame, her, her crystal ball or it's manufacturer?

      Oh, I don't know... maybe the bus driver?

    3. Re:Stupid by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Physicians also misdiagnose patients all the time because they aren't very good at keeping up with new developments in medicine or are otherwise negligent. That's their fault.

      They also misdiagnose patients because there are some extremely rare disorders that look a lot like common ones. And instead of remembering to eliminate that rare one with further testing, they apply Occam's Razor.

      This is probably where the biggest benefit of AI comes in - a larger library of knowledge than a human can keep in their head. You still need a doctor to weigh the answers at this point, but a computer can't "forget" about things that are unlikely.

  21. Thanks a lot obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blame obama

  22. Lameness filter test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    faggot

  23. Stop with the finger pointing, please. by MakersDirector · · Score: 0

    Mitigation of risk doesn't have to always mean having someone to blame for the mistakes.

    For years, I'd been misdiagnosed with blood pressure issues, and spent upwards of a hundred thousand dollars over the years between medication, therapies, various doctors, and even holistic healthcare options.

    Finally. I had a good Doctor point at a picture of my brain and say 'the problem is here'.

    Turns out, I have naturally occuring high blood pressure and the stress of being told I had a problem was actually causing the symptoms to magnify, and the medication, seeking to rectify a problem that didn't exist, only exacerbated the problem.

    Sure. I could have sued. But most doctors aren't deeply educated in psychology nor do they keep up to date with current medical practices as they probably should. But the fact of the matter was - my problems largely went away when I quit believing I had a problem.

    So to answer your question. The most important thing about AI is this - it should be used to augment and support a regular doctor's perspective and labor. Not to replace it. Without the insight of a human with a body similar to yours to provide perspective on your body, there is inbuilt bias in the diagnosis that may actually cause more problems. This isn't to say AI isn;t of value, it certainly is - to provide a unique perspective - but as a replacement for humans, that's just foolishness.

    So to answer your question. Who's to blame?

    The AI SHOULD be built and developed to partner with humans and supplement them. Not to replace them. So this question should never come up.

  24. Who's to blame? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

    The doctor. All of these systems are marketed and sold with the proviso that these provide only advice for the physician. This is to make sure that liability is clearly allocated. And notice that it's not the software company accepting this liability.

    --
    That is all.
  25. Those who approved the AI by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    Whoever thought the AI was accurate enough is to blame, that is, the person who approved its use for that patient and then signed off on the diagnosis. I mean, people are verifying this stuff right? It's not like the AI has any authority itself.

  26. I am not... by Chessucat · · Score: 1

    ...sure who's to blame because I don't have a tattoo.

    --
    "I'm a dirty white tomcat, enter my world..."
  27. In Defense of Minor Attracted People or I Think it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    In Defense of Minor Attracted People or I Think it's Genocide.

    People lived short brutish lives in our ancient history, 30,000 years ago, often dying around age 30. If girls didn't get started reproducing just as soon as they hit puberty, they might not have lived long enough to see that their own children made it to puberty themselves; people had to reproduce early, the species literately depended on it. Therefore, it's no coincidence that the age of puberty is somewhere around half the age of 30. It also explains why there are so many people accused of being pedophiles, that's the way nature has made some of us, to be attracted to youth as a reproductive strategy. But rather than discuss why there seems to be so many “pedophiles”, we chose to just throw them in jail. Truth is, it's the way nature made them through evolution.

    We are still running on 200,000 year old software, and no stupid, recently created, feel good, socially constructed laws are going to change that. There was no supportive social services in those ancient times, and young girls who lost their families either died or grew up quick. The ones that were attracted to older men survived, and eventually reproduced. That is why you have girls who like older men, and men who like young girls. It's an adaptive strategy that worked in the past, simple as that. Men taking in young girls was natures answer to a social safety net.

    It also explains why the model industry has such young models, they know men are attracted to youth, beauty and neoteny (look up the word). No one really thought much of it back in the day when Calvin Klein was using a 14 year old Brook Shields as a model. Only recently are people outraged so much over so little. I really think it is so the deep state can use it as a way to control our politicians. Makes you wonder.

    Why persecute people for the way nature made them if they are not hurting anyone? No wonder the birth rate in western civilization is declining. Unfortunately, as always, religious prudes are standing in the way of sound reason but try to get your heads around the idea, it's a sound theory. It very well might have made the difference between the human race surviving, and not to acknowledge this possibility is just being unreasonable. The economy has changed but our biology hasn't. There is nothing wrong with being attracted to girls, and boys, around the age of puberty. It's just recently that young people can't find work, and people are stretching their child like behavior all the way into their 30's.

    Throwing people in jail for having an interest in young girls, and boys, around the age of puberty is just predatory policing for money, just like with drugs. Lawyers, politicians, law enforcement types, persecuting people for non-violent crimes that shouldn't even be crimes in the first place, like drugs, which is really just to defend the racketeering of the medical/phama industry, and to prop up their socialist make-work jobs.

    Being attracted to youth doesn't make one a monster, it's the way nature made us. What does make one a monster is destroying the lives of innocent men, and women, who did nothing more than follow their human nature. Not only does it destroy the lives of men when they are taken to prison but destroys the lives of the families, and pets, that depend on them. Think of all the poor animals that get hauled off to animal shelters,and get killed because their owners get put in prison for stupid, non-violent crimes, feeding the prison industry. If I was a cop, I would have trouble sleeping at night for thinking about all the lives I've destroyed.

    Morality is just an abstract concept, a social construct created by parochial minded religious people that are trying to make you submit to their antiquated group think. They often craft shaming language toward you, accusing you of having a “high hope for a low heaven." Evil and morality are points of view. Picture a cat playing with a mouse. To the cat, he is just playing with his food. To the mou

  28. Depends on who I pay. by AvitarX · · Score: 1

    until I can get cheaper Medical Service by excluding a doctor, I feel the doctor is liable. If I can choose a discount and use AI with published results and make my own choice, that's on me.

    --
    Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  29. You sue the operator by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    the operator may sue the manufacturer, but you should sue whoever you bought the service from(doctor/hospital).

    look, it's pretty much the same already now if you go get your eyes lasered and messed around with - the machine does 100% of the actual operation and the doctor is there just to press stop. but it's still his fault if something is fucked up.

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  30. This is a problem without AI as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AI is a tool just like any other one, and blaming toolmakers is not a new thing. In most accidents, be it a medical one or a car/train/airplane crash, there are more than one factors in play, and determining who is responsible is far from straightforward. Currently, this is governed by a complex mesh of standards, regulations and ToS-es. Those are already very confusing: if you put unusually large tires on your car and then speed, can you sue the manufacturer because the speedo underreported? And now with automation gaining foothold everywhere, things are changing faster than government regulators could react.
    Solving this problem would require a massive overhaul of our current legal system. I kinda like the idea of cascading responsibility. In a medical example, a patient wronged would first sue the doctor for every mistake he believes was made. The doctor then could start a cascade suit against the hospital if he believes he was supplied with improper equipment or hospital conditions are to blame. If he wins, the hospital would take his place in the suit for the mistakes that they were proven to be liable of. They could also start their own cascade against the manufacturer in a similar fashion. At the end of the day, the patient wouldn't have to figure out who is actually responsible (an almost impossible task), the members of the chain would settle that somehow. And the system ensures that someone is always left picking up the tab.

  31. Movie about this? by bosef1 · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there a scene in a movie about this, where poorly-behaved robots were tortured with hot irons on the feet and similar? I mean, if the AI messes up, then I can only assume the AI is to blame; don't we just slow down its power cycles or something like that?

  32. No idea who Al is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But can anyone point me to more of this girl? (Link warning)

    1. Re:No idea who Al is... by sexconker · · Score: 2

      Christ, you watch porn in 360p? Is this 1994?

    2. Re:No idea who Al is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Internet streaming didn't become a "thing" until 2005 or so. The resolutions then were limited to 360p or so. Video on the Internet practically didn't exist till around 2000, and it was hit or miss for years. This chick did a CD Girls (lol) shoot around 2005, so she probably has kids BeauHD's age by now...

    3. Re:No idea who Al is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Youtube still defaults to 360p to me. Sometimes it offers me 480p and 720p.

      There's usually nothing good enough there to warrant switching to a higher resolution.

      CAPTCHA: absurd

    4. Re:No idea who Al is... by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Christ, you watch porn in 360p? Is this 1994?

      When you're cranking one off in the company toilets watching Adult Entertainment on your phone, you really don't need high definition. Headphones are a good idea though. So I've been told.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    5. Re:No idea who Al is... by sootman · · Score: 1

      Wrong forum. Go here: https://www.reddit.com/r/tipof...

      --
      Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
    6. Re:No idea who Al is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are talking about porn vid resolution, not regular to R-rate videos.

  33. Liability Insurance? by seven+of+five · · Score: 1

    The AI vendor and/or user could be required to carry liability insurance. The better the AI (fewer catastrophic errors), the lower the premium.

  34. Depends on Type of Error by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    Nobody in his right mind would ever go to a doctor if the odds were that high.

    That depends on the nature of the "medical error". I expect that the vast majority of these cases are people who have a serious condition which is misdiagnosed or incorrectly treated and because the condition is not treated it eventually kills them i.e. they die from the condition. If true then going to the doctor results in a 67% chance of proper treatment and possible survival vs. no going which will be 100% fatal.

    To be worse off going to the doctor there has to be a serious risk that the treatment of a minor condition is so seriously botched that it kills you when the condition itself would not. This seems far less likely.

    1. Re:Depends on Type of Error by cryptolemur · · Score: 4, Informative

      If true then going to the doctor results in a 67% chance of proper treatment and possible survival vs. no going which will be 100% fatal.

      Otherwise you're correct, but third biggest killer in this case doesn't mean 33%, but something between 0.3-0.6% of yearly hospital visits. In other words, one patient out of 200-300 dies because of misdiagnosis, the rest actually survive the ordeal, and some may even regain their health...

  35. Blame game. by WolfgangVL · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If we could all just stop looking for the whipping-boy every time something goes wrong, that would be great.

    --
    You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
    1. Re:Blame game. by drew_kime · · Score: 1

      This sounds better coming from Sean Connery.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

      --
      Nope, no sig
  36. Medical License ? by Archfeld · · Score: 1

    Who has the medical license, the AI or the Dr. using it ? You don't sue the gun manufacturer, or the stethoscope company, they are just tools used by the licensed to 'practice' medicine doctor.

    --
    errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
    1. Re:Medical License ? by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Who has the medical license, the AI or the Dr. using it ? You don't sue the gun manufacturer, or the stethoscope company, they are just tools used by the licensed to 'practice' medicine doctor.

      I know you Yanks love your guns, but how the fuck does a doctor use one to practise medicine?

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:Medical License ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You actually do sue the stethoscope maker. You have to sue everyone who had any part in your malpractice claim, otherwise the defendant's lawyers get up in court and accuse the stethoscope maker of making a faulty stethoscope. The judge says "okay where's the stethoscope maker?" "They're not here your honor." "Okay well since the plaintiff is not accusing the stethoscope maker, they obviously didn't think to consider that the stethoscope had anything to do with it, so the claim is dismissed."

    3. Re:Medical License ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you Yanks love your guns, but how the fuck does a doctor use one to practise medicine?

      Amputating a limb-a few rounds of 9mm is quicker than a bone saw.

      Cancer treatments-Start with a 12 gauge slug and follow it up with 2 blasts of double ought buckshot to show that tumor who's the boss!

    4. Re:Medical License ? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That sounds wrong. Do you have example cases?

      It's the doctor's stethoscope, and if it isn't up to snuff that's the doctor's problem. There's no reason why the doctor or the malpractice insurance company couldn't sue the stethoscope manufacturer for making bad stethoscopes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  37. Safety net by Sigma+7 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A faulty machine or medical device that harms a patient would likely see the manufacturer or operator held to account.

    If only there was some organization that provides a safety net in case something like this happens. In exchange for a small fee (whether through taxes or however else it's implemented), patients get economically protected should a misdiagnosis causes problems.

    Maybe the safety net could be called "insurance". Perhaps it may be possible to do a for-profit organization under this concept.

    What would this mean for an AI?

    If the AI turns out to be more accurate, then that would make insurance payouts less frequent.

    If you want to minimize problems, you can have the AI provide the most likely issues, and a competent human doctor make sure that the diagnosis is sane.

  38. But who can get you unblocked listed form the by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    But who can get you unblocked listed form the pre-existing conditions list?

  39. Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The same 'person' gets blamed in the future as does now days, it doesn't matter! The insurance company pays.

  40. Obviously the org that owns the code. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same as with a self driving car.

  41. Fermi's Paradox by warewolfsmith · · Score: 1

    With millions of samples undertaken every day, billions over the span of a year we can postulate that even an error rate of 0.1% will add up to a huge civil action when the root causation is discovered!

  42. Not the real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not a real problem.

    Normally AI systems gets tested against history data (with perfect knowledge of future outcome and also of previous human doctor decision). So we should know in advance the error rate of the AI system (and the error rate of the human). If the humans were better, nobody will use the AI.

    So the AI just needs an liability insurance (which should be cheaper than for the human Dr, because fault rate is smaller)

  43. Always blame the QA by sergei83 · · Score: 1

    Who else?

  44. Who's to blame? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    I don't know, but it's only a misdemeanor to beat the metallic shit of them.

  45. Create an AI scapegoat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Humans usually want to blame somebody else for their problems. Create an AI to feel as satisfying scapegoat as possible to the human blamer. It will make the human happy and with that the problem is solved.

  46. Medical AI diagnosis will never be possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The solution space is on the order of 10^80 dimensions.

  47. Blame the judicially responsible by Sla$hPot · · Score: 0

    Can an AI sign a contract? No not today. Maybe some day. Until then make sure to bring a lawyer

  48. Easy by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Funny

    The IT guy's malpractice insurance naturally.

  49. The company you paid to provide you the diagnoses by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Presumably these AI systems are being sold to treatment centers (hospitals/medical clinics) that can offer treatment once the correct diagnoses is given. Assuming they are charging you for the diagnoses I would think the clear liability would fall with them. In theory they will take out insurance policies to deal with these issues (and add this cost to their prices). This is very similar to today's situation with just a lower chance of getting it wrong. This should result in lower insurance rates which would lower the cost of diagnoses.

    I would also assume a less accurate version of these algorithms will be available for free (e.g. WebMD) but it will very hard to sue these types as they will not be licensed. These forms of diagnoses will not be accepted at treatment centers as they will then have to take on the liability for mis-diagnoses. This is like a neighbor giving you medical advice and you asking a doctor to act upon that advice.

  50. Already answered by sheramil · · Score: 1

    You blame the doctor. Then you lead the priestesses of Kubebe on a jihad against Richese and then on to destroy the thinking machines.

  51. Jargon/mislabelling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When "AI" is being thrown about, are we talking inference engines that can build up a knowledge base and extrapolate from this into new/unseen cases? Or are we really just talking about "statistical fitting" with larger datasets and more complex models (neural nets, etc)? Because if it's the latter, there is real problems with data quality and out-of-training-set results that must be addressed. Look at the 50+ year history of QSAR in drug design as an example of the problems that have to be dealt with.

    Retrospective analyses abound. Prospective ones, not so much.

  52. It's just a matter of insufficient training. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    So, yes, the blame lies with the designers and trainers of the AI.

    Oh, and a botched diagnosis should also go in the pool of training cases for future AIs.

  53. Blame the AI! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course the AI has to go to jail. Or perhaps electrocuted or what. It won't be as spectacular as hanging an elephant, but the revenge-based justice has to be kept up! It's our Civilization, after all!

  54. Kill off the AI. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    First, remove the AI and have an actual human do it. Human intuition will pick up things that even IBM's betrayal of humanity won't.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
    1. Re:Kill off the AI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First, remove the AI and have an actual human do it. Human intuition will pick up things that even IBM's betrayal of humanity won't.

      My intuition is picking up the scent of paranoid schizophrenia, so you might be right.

  55. Who is to blame? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

    The medical licensing authority that licensed a machine to practice medicine.

    --
    Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
  56. Non-existant dilemma. by Qbertino · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This type of question is a non-existant dilemma.

    The concept of blame should disappear if you are diagnosed by a system that is orders of magnitude more precise than any human could ever be. AFAIK that is exactly the point of medical AIs like Watson. If maintained well, a system like Watson can "know" things a human or an entire army of human medical experts could never know, can process cross-reference cases and drug interference and genetic information at a speed, scale and accuracy that will make the last 500 years of advancement in medicine look like a pre-school exercise in comparsion. Miss- or non-diagnosis by human medical experts is high, and we wouldn't be happier about it if we have someone to blame. Doctors can only operate because there are catch-alls in place that keep a doctor who screwed up from going to jail. Given the 80% chance of dying in the next 5 years or the 80% chance of being cured with an 20% chance of an operation done by a human still failing and killing me really fast I probably would still take my chances. It's always a trade-off and capable AIs driving for us or doing 95% of all medical diagnose work will tip the odds so far in favour of humans, playing the blame game if something at some point does go wrong would be nothing short of stupid and/or silly.

    The same goes for "Whos the AI driven car going to kill? The the young handicapped kid on life support or the old grandma 5 years away from the grave but with 4 grandchildren who love her?".

    This type of question entirely misses the point. AI will be let on to the streets when they drive way, way better than a human ever could, always and everywhere. Deaths in traffic will plummet by orders of magnitude and the occasional situation where an AI can't prevent someone from dying will be so rare society will shrug it off. Experts even expect an extreme organ donor shortage once AI hits the streets. Less idiots killing themselves and others. ... On second though, maybe we should keep a subset of roads for those who insist on racing around.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:Non-existant dilemma. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The whole problem is the concept of "precise." Something is "precise" or it is "not precise." There is not a gray area, or a level of precision.

      Getting a Dx wrong is getting a Dx wrong. Black and White. If you Dx parkinsons but the disease is really MS, the Dx is wrong. It's not "withing tolerance of precision."

      The correctness of an AI Dx is no better than a Human Dx given the same data. The studies that show AI Dx to be "orders of magnitude" better than Human Dx all have one thing in common - the AI has a more complete dataset. They purposefully hamstring the Human Dx by saying "well the doctor only spends 10 minutes with the pat so therefore they only have a terse exam and maybe a CBC to work with."

      These studies also look at the "worst case" of Human Dx by looking only at the level of correctness for a Dx by a human doctor just out of residency, with comparatively little experience.

      So, if you compare an AI with a complete set of diags with a 28 year old punk just out of residency with only vitals and a CBC to work with, of course the AI is going to be better.

    2. Re:Non-existant dilemma. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You're assuming that misdiagnosis will be a thing of the past, and I don't see that. People are complicated. Some stuff is simple and definite, and doctors don't misdiagnose (e.g., finding staph aureus in a culture). Other things are more complicated, and no system is going to get everything right. The AI is going to misdiagnose, and the survivor's relatives will argue that the AI should have prescribed a particular test (whether or not its chance of eliminating a misdiagnosis is significant enough for it to be worthwhile).

      Also, there's a difference between diagnosis and surgery. An AI might well take in symptoms, order tests, and then direct treatment. If it's a drug treatment, there's very little chances for humans to screw that up. If it's surgery, there's plenty of chances, since all sorts of things can suddenly go wrong.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  57. Real world exemple : EKG by DrYak · · Score: 1

    A real world exemple : electo-kardio-grams (traces of the heart activity).
    They are a useful tool to help daignose heart rythm problems.

    Since a couple of decade already, given how simple the data is (less than a dozen of 1D signals), we already have managed to do automatic recognition.
    To the point that any modern EKG will give you a diagnostic printed after the traces them self on the report.

    How do doctors use it ?
    We are trained to first look at the traces, see if they seem obviously wrong or not,
    then apply a couple of heuristics that we have learned (QT delay, signal elevation, etc) to check for everything,
    and then read the automatic diagnostic.

    So if we missed something, the automated diagnostic can help point us in the right direction (e.g.: if the pathology isn't that obvious).
    But if we see something deeply wrong, we are not going to ignore it simply because the machine said "everything looks OK to me".

    There's always going to be a doctor in the loop reviewing what the machines say, at least in the foreseeable future(*).
    In a way you can think of the AI as a not yet fully trained early-year student: can give useful information, can offload some work to it. But never trust it 100% without a review.

    ---
    (*): at least for as long as the current AI (based on deep neural nets) are only as good as training pigeons to guide WW2 bombs.
    Perhaps if one day in the far distant future we manage to make much more clever AIs
    (e.g.: a high number of various DNN, all interlinked together, the same way as a biological brain has several cortical regions, from primary (visual cortex), through some more associative (faces recognition), to highly associative (interlinking all the rest)).
    Then it will be a question that boils to if this AI can manage to "pass exams".

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  58. Not Liable by JimSadler · · Score: 1

    The law tends to protect doctors from simple mistakes. And with AI I think the same would be true. If the software was diligently created and is known as a good product there is no expectation of perfection. The same is true for your surgeon. He can do great harm. But as long as he was sober, in a proper state of mind, and diligent in trying to render aid the law will not tend to land on him like a bag of bricks. Did the doctor or software do what other doctors or AI programs would have done? Is the bad outcome simply a matter of unusual conditions that do not diagnose easily? Juries know full well that a big settlement means their own individual health care prices will rise. A jury needs to feel rage in order to give a high award. If that doctor was in the strip club until 4 AM and drank a huge bottle of champaign and staggered into the operating room with no sleep and still half drunk then a jury very well may cut the string and let the red balloon fly.

    1. Re:Not Liable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The law tends to protect doctors from simple mistakes."

      You must not live in the US...

  59. Just report by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the variance with the diagnosis. The patient is fully and accurately informed. No liability.

  60. blame? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why do you assume that if something goes wrong that someone is to blame? That is a lawyer talking. If there is a misdiagnosis, it may simply be that we don't know enough to make a better one.

  61. The blame issue .... by PPH · · Score: 1

    ... was already settled in the context of insurance companies and health maintenance organizations. Corporations and their agents are already immune from malpractice liability in misdiagnoses or mistreatment of patients' medical conditions. This will be extended to corporate-owned AI systems.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  62. Same answer as if Physician's Desk Reference ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ok, ignore the cool factor of AI.

    What happens if the Doctor consults a book, like Physician's Desk Reference, and follows the reccommended treatment. But the book had a mistake?

    IMHO, whatever your answer for this is -- should be the same answer for the things they are calling AI nowadays. (if the AI gets free-will, human-rights, and equal citizenship, that's different -- then IT can be considered. But otherwise, it's all just tools for the doctor.)

    My personally opinion, is that the responsibility is where it always has been -- on the doctor AND on the patient.

    Please feel free to disagree....

  63. of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your mother!

  64. Thank Obama by kemster · · Score: 1

    Obama. The answer is Obama. Thanks again, Obama!!

  65. I'm tryng to find a citation. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Medical error is currently the third leading cause of death in the U.S.,
    Not according to the CDC https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fasta....
    Even if "accidents" are all medical and not mostly automotive, that doesn't get you to 3rd place.

    Does the CDC cover up medical "oopsies" and prescription mishaps? Both of these get huge body counts in the media but never hit a leading cause of death list.
    I am very serious about this question and not trolling. Is the CDC owned like the FCC and the FDA and the ... oh, I guess I should have seen that coming.

  66. Oh, Look, Vengeance Again by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

    Sigh. This is just more people looking to identify upon whom they can exact revenge if an error occurs.

    Look, people, you're acting like psychos /and/ driving up the cost of healthcare at the same time, while slowing progress.

    The AI's should be pre-certified by a standards body for being written as carefully as possible. If they are competently certified and you're in the false-positive or false-negative zones, that's just a natural consequence of participating in the medical care system.

    Healthcare will /never/ be perfect. There will always be errors; information theory guarantees it. If the expected outcome of such an error is to seek vengeance, all that will do is to forestall the very innovation that will minimize those very errors. Do not participate in the system if you cannot value the risk rate in the system over the risk rate out of the system.

    Some might wonder, "does it seem just to seek vengeance on the people who are causing that delay with their vengeance?" Everybody would do well to remember: âoeIf we do an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, we will be a blind and toothless nation.â - MLKJr.

    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  67. Who to blame? Do you mean who to sue? by Khashishi · · Score: 1

    Shit happens. If you want to blame someone, blame God. You aren't entitled to compensation every time something bad happens.

  68. The medical practicioner is responsible. Always. by karlandtanya · · Score: 1

    You have to hold a license in order to practice medicine.
    Same as any other professional license, except crappy doctors usually kill their victims one-by-one; crappy civil engineers can kill orders of magnitude more people in one disaster. This ain't anything new, folks.

    You have certain ethical responsibilities when you get your MD, DO, DDS, etc--it's spelled out and regulated (in the us) by state.
    Yes, it's really the state medical board they get their authority by statute.

    It doesn't matter *what* diagnostic tools you're using--if you're practicing medicine, you're the gatekeeper.

    The FDA will tell you what's approved or not approved--but they do not regulate *everything*.

    Your employer makes you use some cheapass screening tool to grind a hundred patients through diagnosis where you'd only get ten of them through if you did it right. Fine--they have profit to think of.

    It's your responsibility as the practicioner to say "No, this is bad medicine and I won't do it."

    It's really a no-brainer for the practicioner, too--you're going to lose your license and get sued if you go along with this kind of crap.

    --
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
  69. Don't use Deep Learning use Bayesian Nets instead by quax · · Score: 1

    Bayesian Nets, can incorporate expert knowledge, and they allow for parameter and structure machine learning.

    The have been extensively used for diagnostics, and they give a valid statistics for the most probable diagnostic, based on the data that they have been trained with.

    This kind of AI is computationally and conceptually somewhat more expensive, but there is really no valid reason why medical diagnostic systems shouldn't follow this paradigm. Especially since recent research shows that these networks are also surprisingly robust with regards to their parameter settings.

    Some decisions are too important to just entrust to an ANN black box. In Bioinformatics it amounts to programming malpractice.

  70. Get it right! by Rastl · · Score: 1

    First and foremost this is NOT Artificial Intelligence. It's machine learning and neural networks. Those are very different things. It's just that calling it machine learning isn't as attention grabbing and fear mongering as implying that these are intelligent systems.

    The article does briefly correlate the two when stating that the opacity of machine learning makes the results almost impossible to trace back. That's a big consideration. I don't feel like looking up the article where a major hospital used their entire medical record database to feed the neural network and found that the system was significantly better at diagnosing schizophrenia. The problem is they don't know how the system does this, what indicators are being used, etc. But they've used this information to assist doctors in treating patients.

    The way to go at the moment is to let these systems run and learn but give the results to real, trained doctors for diagnosis and treatment. Consider them another screening test. When the doctors have entered their diagnosis and treatment, plus how well the patient responded, the systems will learn a bit more. It's going to take a lot of years and a lot of medical records for these to become even marginally trusted. That doesn't mean they can't be fired up and start crunching the data now.