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Researchers Found Perfect Contraceptives In Traditional Chinese Medicine (inverse.com)

hackingbear writes: Researchers at U.C. Berkeley found a birth control that was hormone-free, 100 percent natural, resulted in no side effects, didn't harm either eggs nor sperm, could be used in the long-term or short-term, and -- perhaps the best part of all -- could be used either before or after conception, from ancient Chinese folk medicine... "Because these two plant compounds block fertilization at very, very low concentrations -- about 10 times lower than levels of levonorgestrel in Plan B -- they could be a new generation of emergency contraceptive we nicknamed 'molecular condoms,'" team leader Polina Lishko.

78 of 144 comments (clear)

  1. At least some B's in there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Used after conception for emergency contraception but works by preventing the sperm and egg meeting, that is contradictory.

    1. Re:At least some B's in there by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      The standard "Morning After" pill works by preventing implantation of the blastocyst in the uterus wall and hence the pregnancy. However this takes place after conception.

    2. Re:At least some B's in there by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      The actual paper is paywalled, but the abstract says nothing about working "the morning after", so the journalist who wrote TFA may have just made that up.

    3. Re:At least some B's in there by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2, Informative

      Used after conception for emergency contraception but works by preventing the sperm and egg meeting, that is contradictory.

      It only seems contradictory because you don't know that fertilization of an egg can take up to four day. That is correct, after engaging in sex, females are not immediately impregnated.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    4. Re:At least some B's in there by kqs · · Score: 1

      Actually, recent research shows that "Morning After" pills tend to block conception (which often happens some days after sex) rather than preventing implantation.

      This chemical could in theory do the same, though I'd wait for future studies to reproduce the "too good to be true" results.

    5. Re:At least some B's in there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's doesn't seem contradictory to you because you don't know what conception means. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conception. It's a terrible summary. I think we can all agree on that.

    6. Re:At least some B's in there by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 4, Informative

      Was able to read the study here:
      http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/05/09/1700367114.full

      PDF here: http://www.pnas.org/content/ea...

  2. Let me guess ... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

    Perfect Contraceptive

    Reading /. or Reddit? Living in your parents' basement?

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Let me guess ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      RTFA. It's a kind of powder you the girl must put on her mouth while giving a blowjob: guaranteed to be 100% effective against pregnancies if used consistently.
      The Chinese scientists also report positive initial results when this compound is applied to hands or rectum.

    2. Re:Let me guess ... by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Reading /. or Reddit? Living in your parents' basement?

      Also Dungeons and Dragons. That's why the Catholic church dislikes it: it's also 100% effective.

      (with apologies to someone. I can't remember. SMBC?)

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    3. Re: Let me guess ... by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      Apologies to us, you mean. On paper, the Pope doesn't want you having sex until married. Since a good wife wouldn't let her husband play D&D, it wouldn't matter two shits to the Church.

  3. Before you get too horny... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    I read somewhere that ancient Egyptian women used crocodile dung as a contraceptive sponge.

    1. Re:Before you get too horny... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      And/or sour milk. Later vinegar.

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    2. Re:Before you get too horny... by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      I believe it was a half a lemon peel filled with crocodile shit as a diaphragm.

      That had to make for an...interesting smell.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Before you get too horny... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      I bet it worked well. If I was going to get intimate with a woman and she smelled of crocodile dung, or any animals dung for that matter, my interest would instantly drop to zero. Therefore no chance of a child.

  4. PNAS by Petersko · · Score: 4, Informative

    Well, the actual paper was published very recently in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, which is reputable. They don't seem to be selling anything.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/ea...

    1. Re:PNAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There's a huge difference between the scientific paper and whatever it was that Slashdot linked to. The Slashdot link made all kinds of vague claims where it wasn't clear what they even meant.

      Take, for example, the claim that the new contraceptive could be used before or after conception. Did they mean before or after sex? Or did they mean before or after the sperm enters the egg cell and the egg cell ditches it extra set of chromosomes to become diploid? Or did they mean after the fertilized egg implants in the uterus. Because it can be a couple days between having sex and actual implantation.

    2. Re:PNAS by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However there is a lot of claims here. In general trying to describe the perfect birth control. With the promise of it originated from some ancient Chinese secret. Smells fishy to me.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:PNAS by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Informative

      It was peer reviewed, published in a prestigious journal, and they aren't selling anything. So I don't see anything "fishy" about it. It is often hard to get funding to study naturally occurring substances, because they can't be patented, so there isn't any money in it. The chemicals they studied were extracted from mangoes and dandelion roots.

    4. Re:PNAS by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Week old flounder or fresh Ahi tuna?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re: PNAS by belg4mit · · Score: 2

      Side-effects are effects other than those desired.

      As for the mechanism, the research indicates that the compounds interfere with sperm's ability to swim powerfully, which is necessary to enter the egg. The interference is non-hormonal and has no side-effects.

      --
      Were that I say, pancakes?
    6. Re: PNAS by ClickOnThis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also I can't square "has zero side effects" with "blocks conception". It either does something or it doesn't. There is no such thing as "zero side effects" for compounds that are active in the body.

      If the only thing it does is block conception, then it has zero side effects. I'll wait to hear whether that's actually true, but the definition of a side effect is an effect other than the primary one.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    7. Re:PNAS by kqs · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It certainly seems worth a closer look and avoids many of the common "too good to be true" signs.

      But too much crap science makes it through peer review and into good journals. I'm expecting "too good to be true" once more people study it.

      So "skeptical but willing to be convinced" seems the right frame of mind for this. Birth control with fewer side effects would be a great thing for the world. (Less opposition to birth control from religious groups in the US would be even better, but I don't expect miracles.)

    8. Re:PNAS by evenmoreconfused · · Score: 1

      Maybe it means before or after birth.

      Cyanide would be such a drug. Before birth, administer to adult, after birth, administer to offspring.

      --
      No. Well...maybe. Actually, yes. It really just depends.
    9. Re:PNAS by wickerprints · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with the sentiment to be cautious of such extraordinary claims, which, to quote the familiar saying by Sagan and Truzzi, "require extraordinary evidence."

      That said, do not assume that traditional Chinese medicine does not carry the possibility of valuable scientific and medical discoveries. The relatively recent discovery of the potent antimalarial properties of artemisinin was due to research in traditional Chinese herbs and medicines. Now, to be sure, there are a lot of things that traditional Chinese medicine gets wrong, but after thousands of years of trial and error and seeing what works and what doesn't, the resulting herbal pharmacopoeia almost invariably contains useful information about a myriad of plant compounds whose properties have not yet been analyzed by Western medicine.

    10. Re: PNAS by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      You mean it smelt different from what you're used to.

      No, it's a rancid smell. This isn't a culture war, it's a mammalian olfactory system tuned to detect if food is safe to eat.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    11. Re: PNAS by omnichad · · Score: 2

      no known side-effects.

      FTFY. Do we really understand the human body so well that we know that nothing else would react to those in the same way? Particularly, other parts of the body with flagella - like the cilia in the respiratory tract.

    12. Re:PNAS by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      A lot of peer review gets white washed. And approved for scientific journals without the full process.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    13. Re:PNAS by rastos1 · · Score: 1

      It was peer reviewed, published in a prestigious journal...

      Olivia Doll confirms!

    14. Re:PNAS by michael_wojcik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Frankly, the "thousands of years of trial and error" are largely irrelevant. Pretty much any large collection of plant extracts will include many compounds with pharmacological effects on humans, so there's a high probability that some of them will be 1) previously unknown to medical science (because medical science takes time, and it hasn't had a lot of it yet), and 2) useful.

      There's no magic to traditional blah blah whatever nonsense. You assemble a great big grab-bag of random junk, and there's a good chance of something interesting being in among the rubbish.

    15. Re: PNAS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between "side effects" and "treatment effects". Side effects are unintended or possibly unwanted. (Like the famous "and possibly death" ones.) Contraception, for a contraceptive, is not a side effect. It's the treatment effect.

      For a hilarious example of "treatment effect" trauma, read any review about Xenical or Alli (the OTC version of Xenical). That drug has side effects like dehydration, but oily, uncontrollable diarrhea isn't a side effect. It's the treatment effect. That drug makes you shit oil. Literally. That's its intended purpose. And the reviews of it by unsuspecting users are hysterically funny. (Because poop. Duh.)

    16. Re:PNAS by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Cyanide would be such a drug. Before birth, administer to adult, after birth, administer to offspring.

      s/"Before birth"/"Before conception"

      Basic failure of biological parsing.

      Actually, there's a between-conception-and-birth option for using (inorganic water-soluble) cyanide (salts) to achieve this end. Fiddlier to get the dose and delivery right to kill the foetus without killing the baby carrier, but I'm sure it's do-able.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  5. Re:Wait! What? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 3, Informative

    - news for nerds
    - news for people who can't get laid

    Where's the difference?

    --
    #DeleteFacebook
  6. Irony by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 2
    From TFA:

    But there are two plant compounds that can prevent sperm from doing this, no matter how valiantly they may try — lupeol, found in mango and dandelion root, and pristimerin, from a plant called the “thunder god vine,”

    "Thunder God Vine" prevents pregnancy, but sounds like a great name for your penis.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Irony by michael_wojcik · · Score: 2

      Referring to your penis as "Thunder God Vine" may well help prevent pregnancy, at least among potential partners with self-respect.

  7. In other news, te Trump administartion announces by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1, Troll

    it is now illegal to grow mango and dandelions as well as a plant called the “thunder god vine." Raids on houses with dandelion infestations are expected to commence forthwith; with inhabitants potentially facing "growing dandelions with intent to distribute" for larger infestations. Right to Life organizations hail the new laws as a great step in protecting future unborn Republicans.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  8. Author doesn't understand "conception" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I read the article. This works by preventing fertilisation of the egg. "Conception", if it is defined separately from fertilisation (often they are used as synonyms), is the implantation of a fertilised egg into the womb.

    So this can't be used as an emergency contraceptive as weirdly claimed, and the excerpt of the journal that is reported in the article didn't claim it can. Seems the article author just made it up, to get more clicks.

    1. Re:Author doesn't understand "conception" by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      What matters is the result. I don't give a fuck why I don't get to pay alimony, as long as I don't get to pay.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Author doesn't understand "conception" by Whorhay · · Score: 1

      Perhaps the author is thinking of conception as being the sexual act, and not actually the fertilization of the egg. It takes awhile, and sometimes longer than you might think, for fertilization to happen after intercourse. So it is conceivable that you could have sex, and then some time later take something to prevent fertilization from happening.

  9. Re:In other news, te Trump administartion announce by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What stage of grief is 'idiotic snark'?

    Get on with it.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  10. After conception? How? by wonkey_monkey · · Score: 1

    The article claims it can be used as contraception "after conception," which is an oxymoron for a start. There's detail in there about how it stops sperm swimming, but nothing about the mechanism behind it stopping fertilized eggs from implanting, which is (obliquely) claimed.

    --
    systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
    1. Re:After conception? How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      We now have two definitions of pregnancy:

      1) Conception. This is the point at which a new organism is created, which shares DNA with but is clearly distinct from both egg and sperm. This is also the traditional definition.

      2) Implanation. When the zygote implants into the uterine wall, it taps into the mother's body as life support and becomes viable.

      ACOG defines pregnancy as #2, therefore preventing implantation is contraception, not pregnancy termination. Every pro-life organization or thinker of which I'm aware defines pregnancy as #1. The utility and unintended consequences of of medicine, rather than philosophy or religion, redefining the beginning of life by medicine, is left as an exercise for the reader.

  11. Re:Didn't China have over population problem? by Gadget_Guy · · Score: 1

    And we should trust them for birth control advice?

    China had the one-child policy between 1979 and 2015. This was changed to become a two-child policy. Either there hasn't been much sex going on since 1979 or they have had to be creative.

  12. An extra note by Artem+S.+Tashkinov · · Score: 2

    Birth control pills are often taken not because a woman wants to prevent an unplanned pregnancy but because such hormones help deal with acne.

    1. Re:An extra note by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      That's the excuse girls use to convince their parents to let them use birth control.

    2. Re: An extra note by Brockmire · · Score: 1

      I was told by a teen friend it helps regulate their cycle. No follow up questions asked.

    3. Re: An extra note by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      Some women bleed like a stuck pig, or have exceptionally long or painful periods. Hormonal birth control basically takes over and gives them more statistically 'normal' symptoms. When you're dealing with those issues, the pregnancy prevention really is a side effect.

      On the other hand, some women take them without skipping a week in order to completely suppress their cycle. I'm not sure if there's any long term issues with that, but assuming there aren't I've never understood why any and every woman wouldn't go with that option while on the pill.

  13. Re:Wait! What? by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 3, Funny

    He failed at his own joke. What a nerd.

    --
    If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  14. Re:Didn't China have over population problem? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

    And we should trust them for birth control advice?

    None of the researchers are Chinese, either by ethnicity or nationality.

  15. Quick! by qeveren · · Score: 1

    Someone swoop in there and patent it out from under the locals!

    --
    Don't just stand there, get that other dog!
  16. Re: Wait! What? by negRo_slim · · Score: 1

    I'm sure if you pay extra the slag behind the gas station will let you go bareback. Keep ya chin up!

    --
    On the Oregon Cost born and raised, On the beach is where I spent most of my days
  17. Not a contraceptive and far from perfect by pesho · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is another PR statement that inflates the actual findings so much that they become unrecognizable. For those interested in the details, the original article is here (it is paywalled). The TL;DR version of the original article is as follows:

    1. 1. There is a protein (ABHD2) that controls sperm motility.
    2. 2. ABHD2 activated progesterone and is blocked by other steroid hormones.
    3. 3. After ovulation progesterone is released by the cumulus cells that surround the egg. This release of progesterone activates nearby sperm to move faster.
    4. 4. There is a class of compounds produced by plants that are called triterpenoids. Some of these compounds mimic steroid hormones.
    5. 5. By virtue of their ability to mimic steroid hormones two triterpenoids (pristimerin and lupeol) can bind to ABHD2 and block it in the same way steroid hormones do.

    These were the finding of the papers. Now look at the claims in the PR statement:

    1. 1. Traditional Chinese medicine. There is hardly a plant or organic matter that is not used for one purpose or other in traditional Chinese medicine (Traditional Chinese medicine is akin to internet porn - if something exists there is a traditional Chinese medicine made from it). Plants make insane diversity of chemical compounds. Anyone will be hard pressed to find a naturally occurring plant compound that does not exist in at least one plant used by traditional Chinese medicine. While this claim may technically be true, it is completely meaningless.
    2. 2. Contraceptive activity of the compounds. The compounds had marginal inhibitory effect (6-10%) on sperm motility when the sperm was activated with progesterone, and no effect on the motility of sperm not activated by progesterone. Will this prevent fertilization? The study did not report the results of experiments that will directly test the contraceptive effect of the compounds. This claims is obviously false.
    3. 3. The compounds are not hormonal. Technically speaking, they are not steroid hormones. In reality, they act as steroid hormones, otherwise they would not have been able to block ABHD2. This claims seems patently false to me.
    4. 4. "Perfect contraceptives". If you scan the research literature with the names of the compounds you will find that they exhibit all kinds of completely unrelated activities when applied to human cells. This means that one or more of the following are true; (i) these are "sticky" compounds that hit multiple targets; (ii) The compounds are not pure and is impossible to tell if what you observe is the activity of the compound or of the impurities (this happens very often when isolating compounds from plants); (iii) The compounds hit target that is important for many cell types in the body. Regardless of what the explanation is, these compounds are no "magic bullets". "Carpet bombing" seems to be more suitable analogy.
    1. Re: Not a contraceptive and far from perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What an idiotic response to the only response to this story to seriously evaluate the claims being made in the article.

      Congratulations on standing head and shoulders above all the other thoughtless douches in your stupidity. You've earned it!

    2. Re:Not a contraceptive and far from perfect by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      1. Traditional Chinese medicine. There is hardly a plant or organic matter that is not used for one purpose or other in traditional Chinese medicine (Traditional Chinese medicine is akin to internet porn - if something exists there is a traditional Chinese medicine made from it). Plants make insane diversity of chemical compounds. Anyone will be hard pressed to find a naturally occurring plant compound that does not exist in at least one plant used by traditional Chinese medicine. While this claim may technically be true, it is completely meaningless.

      The only thing about TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) is that it's a label that separates it from Western Medicine. That's it. Western Medicine is what we're all familiar with - pop a pill for this ailment or other and you're cured, while TCM is more like drink a soup made from these plants.

      Both are equally scientific in the end - while parts of TCM do contain a bit of silliness, a lot of it is based on sound science that consuming this plant does heal ailment X. TCM doesn't explain why like Western Medicine does, but it does see the cause and effect.

  18. Re:Didn't China have over population problem? by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

    I wouldn't call forced abortions creative.

  19. Re: slam the window on it by Brockmire · · Score: 1

    I'm dying from laughing. I really hope that's an AI bot. You wouldn't think penis jokes from a robot would be funny, but it is.

  20. Re: No for gods sake don't legitimize it by Brockmire · · Score: 1

    What stops them saying that anyways? Isn't that what they are already doing when selling that shit?

  21. Re:Just carry around... by slazzy · · Score: 1

    Birth control is best in layers, so socks and sandals, unkept beard while carrying a D&D rule book will do the trick for sure.

    --
    Website Just Down For Me? Find out
  22. Re:Didn't China have over population problem? by Calydor · · Score: 1

    The two-child policy was enacted due to the cultural issues surrounding having a daughter as your only child.

    --
    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  23. No one needs to worry it will never see sales by John+Bodin · · Score: 1

    It is not a chemical made from some pharmacy R&D department so the FDA will label it as not proper for use.

    --
    John
    1. Re:No one needs to worry it will never see sales by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      No patent, no marketing. Yep, we won't see this except in some unregulated "all natural" formula at a health food store that is too dilute to work reliably.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  24. Re: Just carry around... by TWX · · Score: 1

    Yeah, the grils prefer Slackware.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  25. Re: Wait! What? by TWX · · Score: 1

    Jocks only think about sports, nerds only think about sex.

    --
    Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
  26. Re:Just carry around... by Falconnan · · Score: 1

    Given the number of attractive female gamers I know, D&D has actually been good for my love life. But maybe that's just me...

  27. Re:In other news, te Trump administartion announce by Falconnan · · Score: 1

    I'd have settled for Jeff Foxworthy in a pinch, but Martin Sheen would be better.

  28. Re:Socks with sandals by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

    I'd argue that my unkempt beard and fedora is far more effective, m'lady.

    The pony tattoo helps in your case.

    --
    sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
  29. One Word by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Crocs

  30. Science media vs real science by MrLint · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So when I read "about 10 times lower than levels of levonorgestrel in Plan B"

    This comes off as crap designed to flog 'information' to the the ignorant public. But (and someone please correct me) this statement is meaningless. Any medication has an effective dosage, and method of function. Levonorgestrel and the chemicals mentioned in this article don't function in a similar manner. To compare the concentrations is meaningless, and leads people to believe in some false metric between them.

  31. Re: How did spam get posted here? by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    Sort of like how anonymous cowards, and apt name, destroyed /. long ago.

  32. No sideeffects.. by sTERNKERN · · Score: 1

    How many times have we heard this one? Oh, nevermind.

  33. Re: Just carry around... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    It all depends on your compiler flags.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  34. Re:Socks with sandals by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    But by the time she could see that we'd already be in my bedroom?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  35. Re: How did spam get posted here? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Just because someone sent you a ruler where he wrote "feet" on a piece of tape and tacked it to the place that read "centimeters" doesn't make it so.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  36. Proven effective by MickWilson7208 · · Score: 1

    We only need look at the historical, empirical evidence of China's well-managed - nay, optimized - population to conclude just how perfect such traditional contraceptives are.

  37. Petri Dish Test by John.Banister · · Score: 1

    In the Materials and Methods part of the PNAS article (it didn't seem paywalled to me, but I use Umatrix so the paywall script may not have loaded) they make it clear that this test was all done by people performing tests on sperm samples obtained by masturbation and subsequently purified with the swim-up technique. They showed that adding the chemicals to the purified sperm prevented the calcium channel of the sperm from being activated by progesterone. They didn't show that there's some pill one could safely take that would effectively deliver enough of these chemicals to sperm to act as a contraceptive under circumstances not involved with artificial insemination. This may be the first step on the way to a contraceptive, but unless ejaculating in advance and then mixing chemicals with your sperm can be part of your normal contraception routine, this is not actually a contraceptive.

  38. Re: Socks with sandals by bobmajdakjr · · Score: 1

    socks may have had contact with lead do not lick. made in china.

  39. Re:In other news, te Trump administartion announce by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    I'd have settled for Jeff Foxworthy in a pinch, but Martin Sheen would be better.

    I'd go with Ron White; he'd have the right combo of wit and snark to really make it work.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  40. Re:In other news, te Trump administartion announce by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 1

    What stage of grief is 'idiotic snark'?

    Get on with it.

    Probably the one Trump voters will start with when they realize the jobs aren't coming back, their benefits are being cut and they'll lose their health insurance all; but at least they've done their part to "Make America Great Again." One of my favorite lines was the Congressman from Alabama that argued against the ACA by asking why should healthy people pay for people who make poor lifestyle choices; while representing a state that is leading or near the top in obesity, lack of exercise and smoking. He needs to tell his constituents that they'll lose benefits and pay more because they made lifestyle choices that are bad.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.