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Netflix CEO Says Net Neutrality Is 'Not Our Primary Battle' (theverge.com)

Speaking with Recode's Peter Kafka at the Code Conference today, Netflix CEO Reed Hastings explained his position on the current net neutrality debate that's happening at the FCC. Or, more to the point, he addressed the fact that he's been awfully quiet about it compared to how loudly he defended net neutrality in previous fights. From a report: "It's not narrowly important to us because we're big enough to get the deals we want," Hastings said. It was a candid admission: no matter what the FCC decides to do with Title II, Netflix isn't worried about its ability to survive. Hastings says that Netflix is "weighing in against" changing the current rules, but that "it's not our primary battle at this point" and "we don't have a special vulnerability to it." He does believe that smaller players are going to be harmed if net neutrality goes away, saying that "where net neutrality is really important is the Netflix of 10 years ago."

128 comments

  1. Because we're big enough to get the deals we want by HumanWiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, that type of commentary is why people have serious issues with companies throwing their weight around whenever it suits them.

  2. Kudos on his honesty by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 5, Informative

    "Fuck you, we got ours!"

    --
    Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    1. Re:Kudos on his honesty by nyet · · Score: 2

      You mean "Fuck you, we are big enough that net neutrality would hurt us now."

    2. Re:Kudos on his honesty by srmalloy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More accurately, "Fuck you, we are big enough that net neutrality would hurt us by making competition easier."

    3. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Fuck you, we got ours!"

      You mean "Fuck you, we are big enough that net neutrality would hurt us now."

      I think what he means is, "Fuck you!"

    4. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This guy gets it. Established companies very rarely mind when there is a barrier to enter.

    5. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Established online companies don't want net neutrality, because somewhere there's a garage with some kids starting up a new HP, or building the next Apple 1.

      What if we build a decentralized internet search databases, everyone keeping a little bit on their systems, no data mining, no ads, just the roast chicken recipe you were looking for, what would Google do?

      Same for Amazon. Someone knits a sweater, it gets shipped to an amazon warehouse, then shipped to the customer. Why not spread amazon across every PC on the planet, and then do away with amazon?

      And what would Dell do, since those giant datacenters would no longer be needed? Who are they going to sell servers to?

      Same for music, gaming, movies. It's been done before, PCs get faster, storage cheaper, at some point, do we really need these big corporations?

      Peer to peer will make a comeback someday. Napster Rises from the Grave.

      Yep, net neutrality is bad for Netflix and the rest, I have HBO, I've seen Silicon Valley, the compression algorithm scares them.

    6. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5 informative? Seriously?

      > Hastings says that Netflix is "weighing in against" changing the current rules... He does believe that smaller players are going to be harmed if net neutrality goes away, saying that “where net neutrality is really important is the Netflix of 10 years ago.” ... “The Trump FCC is going to unwind the rules no matter what anybody says,” Hastings argues. He [believes] that net neutrality is “important for society,” but his company, Netflix, isn’t in trouble so it’s not going to get into the fight.

      This isn't "Fuck you, got mine". This is "We know that the destruction of Net Neutrality will prevent or hamper new, innovative Internet businesses. We think that that's a _bad_ thing. But, protesting is useless because this iteration of the FCC's gonna get rid of Net Neutrality rules regardless of public opinion on the matter. They have their mission and they will not be deterred.".

      Come _on_ /., you can moderate better than this!

    7. Re: Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They fall all over themselves and spare no expense to show regulatory entities what "good" regulation looks like.

    8. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      What if we build a decentralized internet search databases, everyone keeping a little bit on their systems, no data mining, no ads, just the roast chicken recipe you were looking for, what would Google do?

      Nothing. Because Google wouldn't even notice. One of the things Google Search is known for is its speed. So much so, that a speed report is still prominently displayed before the search results. Decentralized searching would be agonizingly slow.

      Your other examples are similarly ridiculous.

    9. Re:Kudos on his honesty by necro81 · · Score: 1

      "Fuck you, we got ours!"

      You mean "Fuck you, we are big enough that net neutrality would hurt us now."

      More accurately, "Fuck you, we are big enough that net neutrality would hurt us by making competition easier."

      Let's just summarize: "fuck you"

    10. Re:Kudos on his honesty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, he still posits that this thing that would hurt their company is a good idea. I think he is just saying that it doesn't make much sense putting their funds behind something that will likely fail in this political climate, especially, when that thing will ultimately hurt them down the road.

  3. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They are just being honest. There is nothing inherently wrong with a large company using its size to get a better deal.

  4. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by mysidia · · Score: 1

    It's all hubris. The major broadband carriers Don't care if Netflix thinks they've got theirs.
    Once net neutrality is gone, they can push their own service --- unleash the rate limiting - service will degrade,
    and people will be incentivized to switch to their carrier's streaming service.

  5. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    read their new stance as saying:

    we're big enough it doesn't matter to us anymore.. we really don't give one shit about our customers, other than that they remain our customers.. and new toll roads on the internet will keep startups from taking them away from us.

  6. Gonna have to laugh by r_naked · · Score: 1

    If (and it IS still an if) net neutrality is removed, I am going to laugh my ass off when the backbone providers tell Netflix that BECAUSE they are so big, they can pay out their ass.

    I do appreciate the CEO being honest, but he is not thinking about the big picture. He may think that Netflix can handle the extra payola that will be required, but with that kind of hubris, I don't think he has really thought it all the way through.

    --
    -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    1. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You got that backwards. Netflix is so big that a ISP that does not provide access to Neflix will be without customers.

    2. Re: Gonna have to laugh by r_naked · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You got that backwards. Netflix is so big that a ISP that does not provide access to Neflix will be without customers.

      I don't know about where you live, but I have exactly *one* choice for high speed Internet where I live. I am sure I could get ADSL -- maybe even 3mbits, but I don't think I will be streaming Netflix on that.

      So if my ISP doesn't want to pay the "Netflix carriage charge" to the backbone provider that they use, Netflix is thrown back to the "buffering 90s", and I drop Netflix -- not my ISP -- because I have NO CHOICE.

      Wait, I do have a choice, I could move. Yea, that is a realistic choice.....

      Better hope that congress has some common sense, and when the FCC tries to show that there has been a drastic enough change to warrant the removal of title II status that they laugh in Ajit's face.

      --
      -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    3. Re:Gonna have to laugh by sit1963nz · · Score: 1

      And if Netflix are forced to pay, they will pass on the cost to the subscriber, its not a hard sum after that to figure out who is actually paying.

      Its also likely that Netflix and others will choose to invest more heavily in countries who have net neutrality.
      Just remember, 96% of the worlds population (and therefore potential customers) live outside of the USA

      So, in the end loss of net neutrality will end up like the US health system, costs everyone a sh!t load more in the long term with zero additional benefits and a lot of people not having access..

    4. Re: Gonna have to laugh by coolmoe2 · · Score: 1
      You do know that netflix has peering servers at most ISP's already. So for many customers you are only going over the ISP's routers before it even goes across the backbone providers like level3 etc..

      So hes right they are big enough to get around that.

    5. Re: Gonna have to laugh by sobachatina · · Score: 1

      That would only be true if ISPs had competition like in a regular market.

      I've lived in 5 houses in three states over the last 15 years and never once had a realistic choice of ISPs.

    6. Re: Gonna have to laugh by greythax · · Score: 1

      You do know that even telco providers keep trying to develop competitive options to Netflix, and could throttle the hell out of the routes to those peering servers if they managed to roll one out? (full disclosure, I worked for a major telco for 15 years. They were testing solutions for becoming your tv company for 10 of those years. Also, that company's pack was DEAD SET AGAINST net neutrality because of it.) And don't even get me started on Comcast, which told Netflix to go shove their peering servers.

      The point is, their systems can't compete with netflix, but if you can make netflix suck just as much, why BOTHER to compete.

    7. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those peering servers are actually CDNs and caches, which Netflix pays for. Throttling them would be grounds for a lawsuit.

    8. Re: Gonna have to laugh by swillden · · Score: 1

      You do know that even telco providers keep trying to develop competitive options to Netflix, and could throttle the hell out of the routes to those peering servers if they managed to roll one out?

      True, but again, Netflix's size keeps them safe. Since approximately 100% of their customers subscribe to Netflix, and since their customers like Netflix a lot more than the telcos, making Netflix service bad has huge potential to backfire. If they want to guarantee that strong Net Neutrality legislation gets passed, making Netflix suck would be an excellent way to accomplish it.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    9. Re: Gonna have to laugh by thule · · Score: 2

      I don't know about where you live, but I have exactly *one* choice for high speed Internet where I live. I am sure I could get ADSL -- maybe even 3mbits, but I don't think I will be streaming Netflix on that.

      You have exactly one choice that you're willing to pay for. I'm sure there are more options, but they could be a lot more money. In order of cost you probably have, dialup, cable/DOCSIS, DSL, WISP, satellite, cellular LTE, 2Base-TL (a cheaper form of metro Ethernet via copper pairs), T1/T3, metro Ethernet (via the cable company, but you can choose your transit. Also, construction cost).

      If there is no WISP, why not build one?

    10. Re: Gonna have to laugh by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I'd see mutually assured destruction.

      The only thing I internet with my home connection is streaming video.

      If Netflix, Hulu, HBO, and YouTube, all become unusable I'm going to drop all of them AND Comcast.

      Netflix and the ISPs need each other as mobile gets better.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    11. Re: Gonna have to laugh by r_naked · · Score: 1

      Well hell, I might as well call up Verizon (or Frontier, if the dark fiber was part of the deal), and buy some fiber. I work for a telco that has peering agreements with L3 and Centurylink, and it just so happens I could have them light it up all the way from the front of my house to the front of our data center.

      But wait, just like I don't have money to start a WISP, I don't have money to pay for that fiber (I am sure my employer would have no problems with me terminating in the DC -- so at least that cost is out).

      As for your other suggestions -- really? Even if I could afford a T1 - 1.544mbits or ... wait for it ... T3 - 45mbits. Blazing fast. /s

      Bottom line, it isn't a matter of "willing to pay for" (I would LOVE my fiber idea), it is a matter of *capable* of paying for.

      --
      -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    12. Re: Gonna have to laugh by thule · · Score: 1

      Bottom line, it isn't a matter of "willing to pay for" (I would LOVE my fiber idea), it is a matter of *capable* of paying for.

      Yes, exactly. But the point still stands that there are choices. For example you can use cable company fiber to pull into a large building and just buy Ethernet service from them. That way you can choose your transit and bypass the possibility of Net Neutrality issues. You can also re-sell the bandwidth to others in the building so the cost can be shared. It works! It took months (only!?) to get all the permitting and agreements done to pull the fiber into the high-rise building.

    13. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Kjella · · Score: 1

      So if my ISP doesn't want to pay the "Netflix carriage charge" to the backbone provider that they use, Netflix is thrown back to the "buffering 90s", and I drop Netflix -- not my ISP -- because I have NO CHOICE.

      He's not talking about you on the individual level. He's talking about a corporate stare-down between Netflix and your ISP. That some people will pick a lesser plan or no plan because Netflix isn't working well. That Netflix can do naming and shaming, making that ISP deal with customer service complains and lose customers who do have a choice. That Netflix is big enough to say it works for hundred million other subscribers, your ISP is the problem and the financial backbone to not blink first. A lot of this maneuvering is basically corporate bullying, who's right or not doesn't matter it's who got weight to throw around.

      And while the CEO is being quite honest, he's also trying to talk up the value of his company. If he came in saying oh, ah, without network neutrality we're screwed the stock price will tank. He's instead saying no problem, that'll cement our position as the leading streaming provider and lock out many copycat upstarts. He might be lying that it's actually overall good for business, but since it's pretty much clear that it's happening he's obviously going to try to put a positive spin on it. For Netflix that is, not necessary for the rest of the world.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    14. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix has peering at many Internet Exchanges, they also offer CDN devices that ISPs can put on their own network but that doesn't mean the ISPs have done either.

      If you recall back Comcast refused to peer with Netflix until Netflix paid for a direct peering arrangement. I found it amusing because the ISP I working at had been peered with Netflix at an Internet Exchange site. It just cost our annual connection fee to the exchange, peer with anyone else connected for free.

      Comcast doesn't accept any sfi connections unless the traffic is a 50/50 split which virtually no content provider is going to have. Anyone that provides content, Netflix, Spotify, Google, Steam will have to pay to maintain speeds (because everyone knows the who fast lane concept really is just a slow lane for those that didn't pay the extra tariff).

    15. Re: Gonna have to laugh by r_naked · · Score: 1

      You still don't get it.

      Let's hypothetically say that Netflix had peering agreements with Level 3, AT&T, Centurylink, etc. (the Tier 1 providers), and I also had peering agreements with the same. With net neutrality gone, those backbone providers can charge ME *AND* Netflix extra to carry our traffic. So, I am sure you will say: "HEY, there are multiple Tier 1 providers, so they can compete for your business!". OK, so I am supposed to peer with EVERY Tier 1 provider? Unrealistic. I don't think you understand the cost involved.

      Let's get to something a little more down to earth though. There was an article on here recently where Comcast tried to take down a site that was promoting comments for net neutrality. If net neutrality was gone, they could have just throttled them down to nothing, and there would be nothing anyone could do about it.

      Don't like Verizon (and plenty of people don't), and you throw up a boycott Verizon site -- NOTHING can be done about it. It isn't the government, so the 1st amendment doesn't apply.

      Ahhh, so let's get to the meat of this. There is a site that has some political commentary that is derogatory to the current administration. Scratch some backs, hand over some payola, and what do you know -- no one can reach those sites.

      Bank of America really wants customers -- simple -- pay to have all other major online bank sites slowed to a crawl.

      I could go on, and on.

      The Internet is a PUBLIC utility. The airwaves that Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint, etc use are PUBLIC. They need massive amounts of regulation since they are a scarce resource.

      I am all for keeping government out of local affairs. I am all for small government when you have alternatives. In this case, unless you are rich, you have no alternative for the most part.

      --
      -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    16. Re: Gonna have to laugh by aberglas · · Score: 1

      Netflix streams fine on my 3mbs ADSL line. Indeed 1.5mbs is enough.

    17. Re:Gonna have to laugh by TheSync · · Score: 1

      And if Netflix are forced to pay, they will pass on the cost to the subscriber, its not a hard sum after that to figure out who is actually paying.

      And if ISPs are forced for pay for the massive interconnection to carry Netflix traffic, they will pass on that cost to all of their subscribers, even if they are not Netflix subscribers...

      There is no such thing as a free lunch, only a question of who pays for it.

    18. Re: Gonna have to laugh by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Let's hypothetically say that Netflix had peering agreements with Level 3, AT&T, Centurylink, etc...

        Netflix was never a real "peer" because they dump huge amounts of traffic onto end-user ISPs. Real peers have an equitable mix of traffic in and out. Yet I don't think any end-user ISP was ever asking Netflix to pay-per-bit.

      But even if you have a peering agreement, you are responsible for paying for the equipment to exchange the traffic you want.

      And Netflix thought if it didn't upgrade its interconnectivity equipment that the end-user ISPs would be shamed into paying for it.

      But it didn't turn out that way, and Netflix paid for the interconnection equipment, and those Netflix speed ratings started going up...

      Meanwhile everyone is all hyped up about "net neutrality".

    19. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sfi=settlement free interconnect which means no payment. This is done to facilitate EQUAL traffic exchange.

      One SFI is the equivalent of free access to a provider's network.

      FWIW, most major ISPs actually require prospective SFI partners to connect with them in multiple cities.

    20. Re:Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its ALWAYS the consumer, no question.

    21. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and when that peering service agreement is up for renewal, do you think the price to Netflix goes up or down (with net neutrality neutered)?

    22. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the showdown scenario, Netflix loses. The scarce resource here is Last Mile connectivity. If Netflix owned the Last Mile, it could flip ISPs the bird. But Netflix doesn't own the scarce resource, ISP's do.

      In the end, if competition breaks out between ISPs over Netflix and others due to fast-lane practices, it will be far more profitable for ISPs to jocky around who owns what Last Mile in which areas than to race to the bottom in effort to undercut each other. They will sell subscribers to one another to eliminate competition. In general, these sales can be structured to be close enough to net-zero cost that the transaction fees to do so will be better than every ISP getting caught in a fair marketplace scenario.

      And when all this hits the fan, .gov isn't going to step in until there's a change of the guard in DC. DC absolutely will not admit they jacked up the Internet until it's already dead. This is because the ISPs control all the Last Mile - ISPs will use a slice of the take they're getting from content providers to pay off DC to keep the status quo.

    23. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the ISPs want equal traffic exchange, they should provide symmetric connections to their customers, rather than asymmetric connections with much higher download than upload.

    24. Re: Gonna have to laugh by r_naked · · Score: 1

      Is that 5 simultaneous streams? Or 2 Netflix, a Hulu, and HBO? Is that 4k?

      Yea, didn't think so.

      Not to mention it is nice being able to use the Internet for something besides video at the same time.

      Cord cutting .... look it up.

      --
      -- http://anonet.org -- The internet the way it was meant to be. Check it out, you may be surprised.
    25. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Use them unlimited cellphone minutes to call and complain every time you have issues. The average rate of an ISP's callcenter is $3/minute. 20 minutes a month will cost them $60/m. Incentive them to fix their network.

    26. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Netflix consumes on average 8Mb/s/stream for devices at my home. It's downgrading the bit-rate for your connection.

    27. Re: Gonna have to laugh by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Internet traffic is mostly broken up into two categories of traffic, Transit, which is expensive because you need to move the data all around the world, and non-transit peering, which is almost always free because it benefits both networks and it gets rid of the transit costs for both of them. Verizon, for example, was trying to get Netflix to pay 10x the going rate of transit, for non-transit peering.

      This put Netflix in quite the pickle. Level 3 wanted to use local peering with Verizon because Level 3 and Verizon had a transit peering agreement to keep both directions fairly even. Dumping Netflix on these links would skew the ratio. Level 3 wanted to do cold-potato routing and drop the data on Verizon's network near where the data was going to be consumed, but Level 3 expected the peering to be free or possible just to pay for the equipment, as is the norm.

      To use Verizon's own logic, they should be paying their customers. If Verizon wants access to their customer's networks, Verizon should pay. Of course it's stupid because Verizon is providing the service and the customers should be the ones paying for the service. Same thing. Level 3 is providing the service and Verizon should be jumping up and down about reducing their operating costs.

      The problem is Verizon is actually broken up into more than one company. One part is the residential ISP and the other is the business transit provider. Normally ISPs want to reduce their transit costs by peering. In this case, the Verizon residential asked its sister company to flex its tier 1 status. This is a conflict of interest. Normally the ISP side of things pays the transit, but because they're really the same company, they get to have their cake and eat it to, the best of both worlds with none of the downsides.

  7. Thanks, asshole. by RatBastard · · Score: 2

    FTFA: "It's not narrowly important to us because we're big enough to get the deals we want," Hastings said.

    Gee, thanks a lot, asshole. Nice to see you have no regard for anyone but yourself.

    --
    Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
    1. Re:Thanks, asshole. by Altrag · · Score: 1

      Its probably an overly blunt choice of words, but you can hardly blame them for not putting time and money into a fight they no longer care about.

      They have bigger fish to fry, like trying to negotiate their way out of geoblocking requirements and the ability to secure content in an age where every distributor on the planet is trying to make their own mini-Netflix (and then refusing to renew Netflix' licenses to their content) and the ones that aren't just flat out getting greedy and charging more and more to renew licenses just because Netflix has money rather than because the content is getting more valuable.

      Keep in mind that the title II rules never actually came into effect. Netflix is already paying ISPs for faster service, so they already know exactly how bent over they'll be without net neutrality. Or at least can make a good guess at it (I mean there's always the chance that ISPs will dial it up to 11 once the specter of title II is guaranteed out of the picture, but its a fairly low chance.. especially in the short term when that would immediately show their hand and possibly cause lawmakers to re-reverse the decision while its still fresh in mind. A long, slow cucking that can sneak up on us is more what we should expect when NN rules are fully abolished.)

    2. Re:Thanks, asshole. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you care that much, you shouldn't have let Trump win the election.

      They're doing what they can, but they are a business, and primarily this message is aimed at their shareholders.

    3. Re:Thanks, asshole. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Socialist.

      Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

      Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
      Because I was not a Jew.

      Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

  8. Yep... by XSportSeeker · · Score: 1

    Basically, they went to the other side.
    It was never really about small companies or costumers, it was just about themselves.
    Nowadays Netflix is big enough to impose their own demands and prices on ISPs and whatnot, and they in fact have all the interest on stopping new players in the market.
    It's f*cking shameless to come up and say something like that with all the defenses they made back in 2014, sure, but it's also partially true.
    But yeah, here, for those who don't remember:
    http://www.huffpostbrasil.com/...
    http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/2...

    Consumers indeed deserve better, which is something Netflix apparently isn't willing to fight for anymore.

  9. Translation by ArhcAngel · · Score: 1

    Certain large ISP's have agreed to only charge me X if I stop fighting for NN. Otherwise they are gonna bend me over a barrel. I'm good!

    --
    "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
    1. Re:Translation by pedrop357 · · Score: 1

      Strange that Hulu, Amazon, Youtube, etc.,didn't have this problem, only Netflix.

    2. Re:Translation by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      hulu: bankrolled by big media companies
      amazon: bankrolled by their ecommerce
      youtube: bankrolled by google (bought out before they got all that large)
      netflix: bankrolled by _________

    3. Re: Translation by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      How much of the data to people's homes were all of those companies combined vs Netflix?

      I'd bet that with the exception of YouTube, they weren't even close, and even YouTube I'd bet was a lot less.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    4. Re: Translation by pedrop357 · · Score: 1

      Assuming that's true, Netflix probably should have bought transit directly on those networks instead of cutting corners by going with crappy providers that either didn't want to properly size their paid peering links or were willing to imbalance settlement free links.

    5. Re:Translation by pedrop357 · · Score: 1

      Bankrolled by their investors. From a $1 stock price in 2002 to $163 today - not exactly a company struggling to pay their bills and certainly not a company that can't afford to do things the right way.

    6. Re: Translation by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      My understanding is Netflix was kinda a jerk and moved that way eventually (with more localized servers).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  10. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Without net neutrality there would be no Netflix.

    Also, without net neutrality there will be no Netflix competitor.

  11. I would think by desdinova+216 · · Score: 1

    that the more important fight for Netflix is content rights, since without content that people want to watch, net neutrality doesn't matter

  12. Sucks to be a competitor of Netflix... by cjjjer · · Score: 2

    in a net neutrality focused internet is basically what he is saying...

  13. or translated by jmccue · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are startups in the wings, we want to make sure they never grow.

    1. Re: or translated by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      I suspect they even think they could kill Hulu now that it's a pay service only.

      Netflix has much more cultural relevance, therefore more negotiating power.

      Buying their own premium content greatly increased their value (to ISPs).

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    2. Re:or translated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're not supporting anti-neutrality at least. Just not as vehemently supporting net neutrality as they did when they were one of those startups.

  14. And with that, Netflix account cancelled by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Fuck you, Reed Hastings, right back at you.

    Let's start flooding Twitter with #BoycottNetflix hashtag. Bet that'l wake the fucker up.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:And with that, Netflix account cancelled by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      Why? They're still supporting net neutrality, just not banging the pots and pans as loudly. Hastings is being honest that this isn't their fight directly -- it's up to other people to lead this charge. Boycotting Netflix at this juncture on this topic doesn't make any sense.

    2. Re:And with that, Netflix account cancelled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It makes plenty of sense, if you don't want to look like a hypocritical lying fuck of a company.

  15. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by swb · · Score: 1

    I'd rather have corporate guys say this kind of thing than to bullshit me with other lies or bullshit.

  16. Netflix is at your providers headend. by nevermindme · · Score: 1

    Has anyone ever made a cent on slowing customer data? Or even an unfair peering agreement? The costs to enforce are not worth the potential savings from my seat.

    Netflix has offered and most providers accepted to distributed their devices, called openconnect at ISPs regional headends. Traffic outside of account authorization and enablement transactions never leaves your provider and as netflix moves more than more traffic to end users they will expand their footprint closer to the end users. Perhaps they might drop a few bucks a month for the port/power/rack charge.

    The providers are scrambling to build fat pipes into cloud providers to deliver 85% of the traffic to the subscribers and carry their inter region traffic. What is the point of charging on a peering agreement for a virtual routers in hosted on AWS that can be built and torn down based on bandwidth need. AWS does not charge the providers anything like the former big boys in meet me room.

    What is another QOS class going to do at a nationwide network designed for entertainment delivery from the subscribers ISP? So we got some classes, ISPs Voice, ISPs Services, a machine within the ISP infrastructure, skypelike, cloud attached ISP or a subscriber to subscriber torrent. I know what another QOS class would do on properly sized and growing ISP/CableCo/Provider... put another line in a report with a zero Q depth. Utilization to everything but the cloud providers is going to be legacy traffic that will decay away.

    Network Neutrality is a regulation in search of problem that technology is stepping past with cloud located services.

    1. Re:Netflix is at your providers headend. by Altrag · · Score: 1

      Its not so much about slowing data as it is about prioritizing data. You, as a home user, would not have your connection slowed. You're already paying for a certain (maximum) speed and that won't change.

      I, as a prospective new video site operator, also have a contract with my ISP that indicates maximum speeds and other such service level stuff.

      The problem is in the middle. If there's nothing much going on between you and I, then great. I fire data out as fast as I can and you consume it as fast as you can, and the overall throughput is the lower of our two contracted speeds.

      But if the new Orange is the New Black season just got released and all of your neighbors are currently watching Netflix at the same time to the point that the pipes start getting full.. well Netflix has paid extra for priority service so my packets get put in the back of the queue and your video now spends half its time buffering.

      If we're on the same network this isn't really a problem. I'm already paying for the highest tier service available to me, and Netflix can't be paying any higher than that no matter how big they are, so if Verizon is prioritizing Netflix above me then we're going to have some words, possibly via our lawyers.

      The real problem is if we're on different networks. Lets say I'm on Verizon and you're on Comcast. I have no relationship or contract with Comcast, so if they decide to prioritize Netflix over me, I don't really have any legal recourse. My only option in this point is to open up (and pay for) an entirely separate service agreement with Comcast, and one with Sprint, and one with T-Mobile, and so on and so on.

      So you're paying for your internet access like always. I'm paying for my internet access like always. But now I also have to pay for at least one additional "prioritization" fee with a company I don't have any direct business with. (Maybe even several if you're on a regional ISP since I'd potentially have to pay off every peer along the path.)

      The mobster meme "that's a nice packet you've got there, shame if something were to happen to it" is actually pretty apt. A third party that I otherwise have no reason to even talk to demanding money for the privilege of letting me stay in business.

  17. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by ottothecow · · Score: 1
    Yeah, what else do you want them to do?

    As a public company, there is a limit to how much resources they can throw into advocating something purely for altruistic reasons. They are right that they are big enough that this isn't a problem for them. They can pay for peering agreements, and if ISPs mistreat their customers, then ISPs will have a lot of angry customers. Furthermore, at this point, if the ISPs got rid of net neutrality and turned around and screwed netflix, it would probably quickly change a bunch of people's minds who currently believe we don't need government intervention and lead to people looking for a replacement.

    This is a pretty good compromise (not to mention, they are still lobbying to some extent). They don't waste resources doing something that doesn't matter to their business, but they still get to make their point clear. ISPs can't come back and say "Look, netflix doesn't even care about this anymore..." and Neutrality fans can point to netflix and say "Look, even netflix agrees that if they weren't already a Megacorp, they would be harmed by a lack of net neutrality just like any future startups will be".

    --
    Bottles.
  18. Netflix believes themselves to be "Too big to fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they're willing to admit they were vulnerable back in the day and that this affects smaller people, why aren't they remembering how things used to be? For that matter, why aren't they fighting to lessen their burdens? Odds are, they're paying for exclusivity and I don't understand however that can be a good thing for them.

  19. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by HumanWiki · · Score: 1

    They are just being honest. There is nothing inherently wrong with a large company using its size to get a better deal.

    My issue is with the underlying thought process at work. This time it's a better deal. What about next time? It's a slippery slope to encourage that type of behavior because at some point, they'll use it against you/us.

  20. Cancelled. by bsdaddict · · Score: 1

    I've been on the fence regarding keeping my NF account. Thanks for making my decision easy, Mr. Hastings.

    1. Re:Cancelled. by bsdaddict · · Score: 1

      FYI their cancellation form allows comments. I urge you to make some.

  21. Netflix may benefit more not having net neutrality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason Netflix would be against net neutrality is the same reasons corporations frequently push for regulations that make it harder to do business within their own markets. Once you've established yourself as the lead you want to inhibit new competition and by creating barriers of entry (ie what not having net neutrality does) you keep the competition out of your market (which now requires significant funds and size to achieve- something you won't have as an entrant to a market generally speaking).

  22. Re:There's no free lunch by pedrop357 · · Score: 1

    Yep. If they kept it up, an investigation by someone neutral would show that Netflix was the bad guy in all of this. They chose shitty Tier1 ISPs for a reason and it had nothing to with providing a good experience for their customers.

  23. Netflix are Anti-science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Netflix appears to have removed a segment from a 1996 episode of Bill Nye the Science Guy that attributes biological sex to chromosomes.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/a...

    1. Re:Netflix are Anti-science by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      Did you read the story that you linked to? The prevailing theory, mentioned in the final paragraph, is that this was done at Nye's own request because that segment contradicted Nye's new position on the matter. That would mean it is NOT a case of Netflix being anti-science... it would be a case of exactly the opposite: updating earlier materials to reflect new learning.

  24. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

    I can see how they might think that, but coordinated action among the few big ISPs in the US could convince them to think differently...

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  25. RTFA Before Reacting by tsqr · · Score: 1

    Everyone complains about the Slashdot editors, but nobody Reads TFA to find out whether the summary is misleading. Yeah, I know, nobody RTFA, but seriously, people: you're getting yourselves enraged over a half-truth here.

  26. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Hey, we're more important, so dump that company or you'll loose your contracts with us." "We're big now, so let's pump up the price and line our wallets." "Who cares about workplace morale? That's the stuff for lesser companies." "Just dump it in the stream, we'll buy off the regulators because we can now." "Yeah, that's a nice thing you got going there, be a shame if something were to happen to it." - Every CEO ever.

    Of course all Capitalists are giant psychopaths hell bent on screwing up everyone and everything if there's a buck to be made doing it, so I have no idea why I bother, but "It's just good business" is not an excuse for your actions. It's acknowledgement of the harm your actions produce and blatant disregard for anyone but yourself.

    In many instances, I wish we could just shoot these people. They produce more harm than good.

  27. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by nomadic · · Score: 1

    If Netflix was now pushing to abolish net neutrality in order to use its size to keep new competitors away, that I would have a moral problem with. This just isn't that objectionable.

  28. There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by mi · · Score: 1

    "net neutrality is really important is the Netflix of 10 years ago."

    The rule being so hotly debated was only introduced in 2015. It did not exist 10 years ago — if Netflix rose despite this "critical" rule being absent, so can others...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by blackprint · · Score: 1

      Exactly! I think it would be common sense to deduce the fact that more regulations aren't the answer to a non-existent problem, particularly since the "solution" is so recent. In fact, the real issue is regulation choking out competition in markets that are lacking in competition. NN is a solution in search of a problem.

    2. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. The network was neutral 10 years ago. There was no need for regulation of net neutrality because no one imagined a network that wasn't neutral. Then about 5 years ago, some ISPs started jacking with various forms of traffic (torrents, Netflix downloads, etc). Concurrently, some carriers became content providers. All of the sudden the thing that used to be the default with no need for regulation to protect it became a threatened entity that needed regulation to keep it in place.

      It's like species protection. Animals didn't need laws to protect their habitat until it became threatened. Same thing here.

    3. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by blackprint · · Score: 1

      We've seen other iterations of anti-consumer decisions. Data limits have always been a bubbling issue and every time someone wants to implement it they can only get reeled back in with competitive forces (the whole voting with dollars idea). Point being that my point still stands that legislating "fairness" isn't helping since the real culprit is a lack of competition. I have a hard time believing that NN hasn't been an ongoing issue for at least the last 15 years, which was the last time I worked in a small Austin ISP, there have always been issues of people looking to treat packets fairly/evenly.

    4. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. The network was neutral 10 years ago. There was no need for regulation of net neutrality because no one imagined a network that wasn't neutral. Then about 5 years ago, some ISPs started jacking with various forms of traffic (torrents, Netflix downloads, etc).

      No ISP has ever been "non-neutral" with Netflix. They just asked Netflix to pay for their side of the interconnection.

      BTW, ISPs have been "de-peering" each other for the entire history of the Internet [I was there, believe me]. If an ISP felt that another ISP was just sucking Internet traffic out of them, sucking ISP would be asked to become a paid customer of the sucked ISP instead of a peer.

      For example, in October 1996 two large ISPs, Digex Inc. and AGIS, cut off their peering connections for over a week...AGIS customers were not able to access Web sites that were on the Digex network including the Security and Exchange Commission Web site.

      Between March and May 1997, UUNet told around 15 ISPs that their peering arrangements would be terminated within a few months, and that new, bilateral transit agreements must be struck. The move essentially transformed peers into customers.

      Things are a bit backwards now because services like Netflix make money from dumping huge amounts of paid traffic onto ISPs, whereas back in the day ISPs made money by providing their users the ability to suck free information off of the Internet.

    5. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Netflix don't dump traffic on to ISPs. The ISPs' paying customers request it from Netflix. That is the ISPs are already being paid once for this traffic. Asking Netflix to pay the ISP of their customer to carry the traffic is the ISP double-dipping. When the ISPs have already been paid for the traffic, why should Netflix have to pay again?

    6. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      WROOOOONG!

      The Internet has ALWAYS operated on the principles of network neutrality. More or less. ISPs were dumb when it came to where a packet came from, where it was going to, and what was in it. UDP is different than TCP, and they played with QoS issues, and there's no way to make Japan closer than Kansas, but hey, it was an ideal they, if not strived for, at least weren't actively working against.

      What you're talking about is "Network Neutrality Regulation". The FCC's enforcement of network neutrality. Now why would they do that? If the networks were always neutral before 2015, what changed? Answer: CONSOLIDATION. Back when there were hundreds of ISPs all competing with each other and handling each other's packets, they wanted and NEEDED everyone else to play nice. Anyone who didn't, and just decided to drop off all... say... P2P traffic or caught throttling opponent's VoIP traffic would be lambasted and customers would go elsewhere. YAY free market! Capitalism works! ....But only when there's competition. After people used the Internet more and moved to broadband the ISPs market consolidated into a handful of companies which have admitted to sectioning up the USA into territories were they don't compete. An oligarchy. And why would they compete? It's a natural monopoly.

      And given half a chance they've shown that they WILL try tearing down the time-honored system of network neutrality and bundling websites into their service like ESPN360, blocking P2P traffic, throttling competition. When caught doing this shit, they backed off (well, not the bundling thing) because they worried about the public backlash leading to the FCC enforcing regulation. Which happened. But now that they have a man on the inside, that's no longer a worry.

      What are you going to do? Go back to DSL at 1.8Mbs? SatCom with the 800ms lag? Switch to google fiber? Oh wait, they stopped all expansion because they couldn't make any money since the Telecom actually competed on price wherever they came to town.

      We either need a free market with competition forcing the companies to play nice, or we need regulation forcing them to play nice. If the FCC can't regulate the Telecoms, the FTC should whip out Sherman's hammer and bust up the oligarchy.

    7. Re:There was no "net neutrality" 10 years ago by Straif · · Score: 1

      That's like saying the post office is double dipping by not fulfilling my request if I order a crate of car parts and the shipper puts it in the mail with a single stamp on it.

      I paid for my car parts from Company A and I paid for the postal service through taxes but that doesn't allow company A to abuse the postal system by paying just the bare minimum service level for what is obviously much higher than the bare minimum. That's exactly what Netflix was doing by intentionally picking the cheapest internet provider whose peering agreements did not come close to covering their data requirements.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  29. Basically, net nuetrality would threaten them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. and their position... so they are against it.. time to unsubscribe from net flicks and go back to torrents..

    1. Re:Basically, net nuetrality would threaten them by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

      THEY ARE NOT AGAINST NET NEUTRALITY. They remain in favor of net neutrality. They just aren't being as loud about it as before. Do not twist this story into lies. Claiming that they are opposing net neutrality is absolutely false.

  30. Crunchyroll, etc by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    I really hope that smaller streaming services survive an era without net neutrality. We assume that Netflix, Hulu, Amazon and other big players will have the ability to negotiate with the main ISPs and work something out and perhaps raise our rates in the process.

    But if streaming HD anime from Crunchyroll is no longer feasible then does that mean the businesses go away and their services disappear or are subsumed by larger streaming services? I use that as an example as it is somewhat of a fringe service, watching sub-only Anime isn't exactly mainstream. Having a business with a small but rabid fan base seems to work for Crunchyroll.

    End users are really the ones who will will screwed on both choice and price.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Crunchyroll, etc by TheSync · · Score: 1

      I really hope that smaller streaming services survive an era without net neutrality.

      Smaller streaming services aren't sucking up most of the Internet's bandwidth like Netflix, so ISPs aren't going to bother making them pay for interconnectivity...

    2. Re:Crunchyroll, etc by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Smaller streaming services aren't sucking up most of the Internet's bandwidth like Netflix, so ISPs aren't going to bother making them pay for interconnectivity...

      If your streaming service is not prioritized, then you won't be able to get enough packets to your users for HD+ content. If you're too small for an ISP to care about, then you will only have a normal priority. If you're a big player, then you'll have a high priority.

      ISPs obviously want a cut of Netflix, Youtube, Hulu, and Amazon. They can see massive mounts of traffic going through their network and of course they want to target the big players first. But what makes you think that only the big players will be affected by attempt from ISP to start charging third parties a "toll" for passing through. (third parties mean people who are not directly connect to your network, like Netflix, last mile, etc).

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  31. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But when 'we the people' are honest, and reveal our COLLECTIVE OPINION is for net neutrality... we don't get the deals we want.
    So do you see how it's one-sided?

    Honesty yes, but that does not make it respectable. An rapist can tell you they're going to tear you up... does not mean you should appreciate it.

    This is a corporation turning a blind eye to the concerns of people who pay them. Not that they're a charity but when net neutrality dies- prices will increase & their business will suffer. Netflix's influence with B2B may be strong, but their relationship with 'the people' is now revealed. And will degrade to 'another expensive ala-cart addon' meaning they will be up for consideration vs. other bills like any common expenditure. They used to be invaluable. *Used to be*

  32. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by guises · · Score: 1

    This is the best we could have hoped for, short of Netflix dedicating a lot of resources to fight this. He comes right out and says that killing Net Neutrality hurts small players and favors large companies. This is exactly what it does, and it certainly helps to have someone in his position spell it out in such plain language.

  33. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are just being honest. There is nothing inherently wrong with a large company using its size to get a better deal.

    My issue is with the underlying thought process at work. This time it's a better deal. What about next time? It's a slippery slope to encourage that type of behavior because at some point, they'll use it against you/us.

    A better deal by itself is not a bad thing, well, until it is. There comes a point when size allows you to distort the market enough that competition is effectively impossible. Now one might argue, but then the stuff is really cheap. This is not necessarily true, since that much power can also lead to regulations and laws that are only really feasible for the big company to obey.

    Now it could be argued that the regulations and such, particularly if they are tailored to help that company are the real problem, but it is not everything. For instance netflix might get a great deal from t-mobile or whatever where their traffic, when suitably configured is free. Is that fair to every other video service that didn't get that deal? To be fair to t-mobile, I don't think they restrict to netflix. Some cable companies no doubt favor their own content.

    Things need to be generic and open to all, at least within reason. We shouldn't have netflix caching boxes, we should have generic boxes that cache a variety of streaming in data centers. There should be no special deals to treat netflix better than other carriers. The carrier should instead implement the needed infrastructure so any equipped provider can use it.

    Of course with something like netflix security of their videos can be important, but we should be able to in this day and age auto scale and deploy virtual machines. Some kind of code signing and security model might be required so the netflix VM they upload is known to come from netflix and provide the appropriate security. With something like this, once a video service has enough customers, the systems could handshake and deploy a VM with needed resources.

    In short if the design is correct, any random person could make a web site for serving videos and have it automatically scale based on demand. Yes there are lots of details to work out, but I don't see any reason why we need specific deals for certain streaming sources.

  34. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unfortunately the current FCC won't listen even when someone spells out the problem in such a straight forward way. They are convinced that ISPs will provide 'Fast' and 'Faster' lanes and everyone will be treated equally, despite the fact the 'Fast lane' concept immediately starts to discriminate against certain traffic (aka traffic from companies that can't pay for both their connection and their potential customer connections).

    I'm just waiting to get my 1 Gigabit connection that averages 100k to any site that hasn't paid the cable company carriage fee.

  35. Re:Netflix believes themselves to be "Too big to f by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

    There are competitors to Netflix. If net neutrality goes away, many of those competitors can't even get their foot in the door. Under US law, Netflix, as a publicly traded company, MUST act in a way that provides best profit for its shareholders. They walk a fine line in advocating for net neutrality when it is actually against their fiduciary duty to oppose it. It doesn't surprise me that the volume of their defense decreases as their exposure to the problem decreases.

    The requirement to always serve profit is a weird requirement in our laws that has pros/cons. That's why I like the surge of "public-benefit corporations" recently, which are founded with specific principles in their by-laws that are allowed to trump profits. Because they're in the by-laws when the company goes public, people buying the stock know that they may get lower returns because the company has a higher goal to serve.

  36. Re:Netflix may benefit more not having net neutral by Aristos+Mazer · · Score: 1

    Hastings said they would benefit from no net neutrality. The fact that they are still supporting net neutrality -- just in a quieter voice -- is actually laudable.

  37. Their biggest battle should be to allow VPN use. by mstrcat · · Score: 1

    I'll give them a pass on net neutrality, as it's really not their fight. What they need to be fighting is regional content deals. I am so sick of having Netflix spastically fail if I'm using a VPN.

  38. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You're misreading it. The message is to their shareholders, saying "don't worry, this won't affect us financially", because it looks like this administration is going to get rid of net neutrality and they don't want it to affect their stock price.

  39. Socialist Manifesto by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One of the fundamental tenets of the socialist manifesto is that children are not the ward of their parents, but rather of the State, and that parents are merely guardians over children on behalf of the State.

    This is becoming more and more of a reality everywhere, including in the United States, where just over the last 50 years, parents have basically been stripped by the courts of all of their parental rights. The State (via the school system) can now punish your child for activities they do at home, and (via other government offices) can take them away from you on a whim if they think that you might have done something wrong, like discipline them, or yell at them, or make them feel bad, or even make them do chores or clean their room.

    I got my kids out of public school when I got "the letter." "It has come to our attention..." My kid had brought two apples to school in his lunch, which violated strict school lunch guidelines. Mind you, this wasn't for any reason related to nutrition. It simply meant he had two pieces of fruit while other kids only had one. This was fundamentally unfair, and was basically my kid showing off his "white privilege" by having "excess" compared to other kids.

    They were in private school for a year until it was shut down by the State after the public school superintendent filed an "anonymous" complaint about safety issues at the private school (that "anonymous" complaint was later outed). Building inspectors descended on the school and found a small handful of minor code violations and revoked all the permits.

    This is how socialism and gestapo tactics work, folks. The EU and the US are merely a few decades behind the Bolivarian Socialist Republics in their level of failure and corruption. But, it's coming. Make no mistake.

  40. Funny enough by nightfire-unique · · Score: 1

    Formerly a customer for almost 10 years, I just recently closed my account due to their new policy of using Google's "SafetyNet," removing Netflix from the list of apps I'm able to run.

    Primary battles indeed.

    Anyone else want my money?

    --
    A government is a body of people notably ungoverned - AC
  41. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by ezdiy · · Score: 1

    people will be incentivized to switch to their carrier's streaming service

    No, people will be incentivized to seek less shitty carrier all that more and netflix will throw their weight as a counter.

    This is because both titans use their customers as ammution, and netflix simply got more. If comcast depeers Netflix (and amazon, for that matter), too many people who *do* have a choice of ISP will switch away from comcast at this point making such a step extremely risk for comcast.

  42. how cute by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    here in spain they make a press release every couple of months stating with Service Providers are working faster with netflix and stating which one is slower and bad mouthing it... but apparently they have no problem with it

    ahhh sweet contradictions

  43. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by hey! · · Score: 1

    Well, there sometimes *is* something wrong, which is why we have anti-trust laws, and why we need net neutrality. But if the government says that ISPs are allowed act like feudal barons, then using your size is what you have to do.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  44. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by necro81 · · Score: 1

    too many people who *do* have a choice of ISP

    And this is the problem with the natural monopoly that has developed, and the reason why Net Neutrality is needed. Most people in the United States don't have a choice of ISP. They couldn't vote with their wallets if they wanted to, except to opt out of the internet entirely.

  45. time to dump netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wont support this company anymore, time to dump netflix

  46. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by mysidia · · Score: 1


    This is because both titans use their customers as ammution, and netflix simply got more. If comcast depeers Netflix

    No problem; They can profile their customers and roll the rate-limits out gradually in concert with other providers, concentrating on customers outside of DSL range first. MOST cable internet users don't have a reasonable alternative.

  47. Netflix is Global, so.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...what happens in the USA, while important, isn't the end of the world for them. The US hasn't been much of a leader lately, and other countries are starting to go their own way and caring less and less what the US is doing.

    Yes, Netflix does have a lot of US-made content obviously...but the creators of said content won't turn down the chance to make some money, and Netflix offers a global platform to allow that (even with geo-fencing).

    So, yes, this will sting them in the US, but not the rest of the world. I wouldn't care too much either were I in his shoes. Sometimes a fucking stupid idea just needs to prove itself stupid (i.e. the US and it's Net Neutrality brain fart).

  48. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by ezdiy · · Score: 1

    This is because both titans use their customers as ammution, and netflix simply got more. If comcast depeers Netflix

    No problem; They can profile their customers and roll the rate-limits out gradually in concert with other providers, concentrating on customers outside of DSL range first. MOST cable internet users don't have a reasonable alternative.

    The problem with cat and mouse like this (and when titans clash) is that the effect of throttling netflix merely doesn't affect netflix. You have to throttle all - Google, Amazon and Microsoft ASes NetFlix routinely uses for fronting (they do that both defensively, mostly in US, and offensively, often in europe). Whereas land carriers would have to amass unfathomable cooperation between themselves to pull off the same effect.

    Throttling netflix basically means making dozen of mainstream internet services unusuable at this point, because yes, netflix can afford it. People would resort to shitty DSL instead of cable, if AT&T jumped at the opportunity of comcast fucking shit up like this.

    tl;dr: Content provider monopolies cooperate much better than last-mile monopolies, in practice.

  49. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

    Exactly

    "It's not narrowly important to us because we're big enough to get the deals we want,"

    Yeah Free Speech isn't important to me. I can say whatever I want. Sufferage isn't important to me I can vote for whomever I want. Right to freely assemble isn't important to me I can hang with my friends whenever and wherever I want. Right to proper representation isn't important to me i can afford my own lawyers.

    When we talk about corporations "being evil" this is what we're talking about. This right here is Netflix showing us blatantly that we can't trust them to do anything that isn't outside their specific personal interest. They have the money and mindshare to be the least affected by changes in net neutrality. They know the public would clamor. The only thing that changes to net neutrality does is ruin the chances of anyone else to become a competitor to Netflix because they won't have that. It makes it harder for anything that isn't Netflix or YouTube or HBO Go or maybe Crunchyroll to get the "deals" that would be necessary to be viable alternatives. They're instituting grandfather clauses in the internet. Either you were popular before net neutrality died or you get backing from Rubert Murdoch or you just suffer.

    --
    Just another second banana
  50. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

    There is nothing inherently wrong with a large company using its size to get a better deal. Reply to This

    No but there is a problem with changing the way the internet works so only large companies can use their size to get better deals. Netflix using their size to get TV shows like Brooklyn Nine-Nine over say Crackle is one thing. Netflix using their size to not care that websites like Crackle are downspun and now operate at a crawl while they remain unaffected is completely not ok. That would be like if the tallest NBA players didn't care that the NBA instituted a height requirement that didn't affect them. It's a dick move. It's an even bigger dick move to say it so blatantly.

    --
    Just another second banana
  51. Netflix already kicks back some of what you pay them to your telecom company. While I can't argue if they want to get larger pipes to your home sooner rather than later, that the telecom companies demand this of Netflix or they will crappify your service violates your contract with your telecom company.

    You probably aren't aware they are lying to you when they tell you they will give you a certain bit rate for a certain fee you pay. They actually extort more money from what you pay Netflix or they will activate their lie to you and slow down your Netflix speed.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Nets by Straif · · Score: 1

      It's not a kick back when you actually pay for the service level you require. For years Netflix used their customer base to pressure ISPs to give them excess access to their networks above and beyond any peering agreements with their provider. They basically demanded fiber speeds while paying dialup prices.

      The 'throttling' people complained about was simply ISP like Comcast stopping that practice and telling Netflix to either pay for proper network connections or deal with the customer complaints.

      --
      Of course that's just my opinion...... you could be wrong!
  52. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

    It'll be their problem when people stop paying for the premium pipe to them.

    --
    Wanna buy a shirt?
    https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  53. Moore's law for the moot. by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    If your internet speed is 1Mbps, reducing it by 90% means streaming video goes from "barely possible" to "not really possible".
    If your internet speed is 25Mbps, reducing it by 90% means it goes from "awesome" to "adequate".

    10 years ago, "broadband" was 1 Mbps.
    10 years from now, "broadband" will probably be over 1Gbps, and even then it will be because most people won't care about (i.e. pay for) speeds in excess of that, not because it will be technically infeasible to provide it.

    I predict video streaming (both the protocols and the providers) will care less and less as time goes on.
    We will look back at ISPs that throttled instead of expanding capacity, and laugh about how clueless they were.
    We'll speculate on whether that was responsible for their demise, or whether it was their abysmal customer service.

  54. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that type of commentary is why people have serious issues with companies throwing their weight around whenever it suits them.

    You are saying this because he manipulated you into saying it. That means he wants you to say it, and he genuinely gives a fuck about neutrality, as does his employer because he's speaking for them. He would not intentionally rile people up, "the Netflix of 10 years ago," if he weren't riled up himself.

    It's inspiring there is still enough fat on this beast, enough will, enough class, to say when something is clearly wrong even if it doesn't align with stockholder value.

    so, bravo, Netflix. Nobody else was in a better position to say the important thing, and you said it.

  55. Hypocritical assholes. by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

    "where net neutrality is really important is the Netflix of 10 years ago."

    Oh just come out and say it: Where network neutrality is really important is the competition to Netflix.

    Netflix 10 years ago was the new competition in town.

    Now that they're established and no ISP could keep customers without including Netflix they're on the other side of the power struggle. They're on the side which wants things locked down and kept in place with a massive barrier to entry for new competition. And killing off minor alternatives will let them sleep better at night on their huge piles of cash.

    The fact that they would keep silent about the importance of network neutrality, even though they'd profit from it's death, paints them as real hypocritical assholes.

  56. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Bengie · · Score: 1

    You can't use generic caching for the request patterns Netflix sees. They have spent a lot of time customizing their caching, which is not even dynamic in nature, but static, to reduce cache thrashing. Netflix' infrastructure is an optimized single vision of how everything should work. The software is architected to work well with the hardware and networks, the hardware is architected to work well with the software and network, and the networks are architected to work well with the hardware and software.

    There is almost nothing reusable about their design, it is highly optimized exactly for their use case.

    If you're using a generic dynamic cache, a 100TiB cache would see less than a 50% hit rate with Netflix. While a 100TiB Netflix optimized cache will see in the 80-90% range, and a 10TiB Netflix optimized cache would see about 50%.

    Since there is no way to dynamically determine what data to cache, all you can do is statically partition the data by video streaming provider, and give those provided access to how they want to cache the data. Defeats the entire purpose.

  57. Re:There's no free lunch by Bengie · · Score: 1

    They chose shitty Tier1 ISPs for a reason

    They primarily use Level 3, which is for the most part, one of the least evil Tier 1 providers. They did use Cogent, but under duress. They had many situations where the ISP refused to peer with Level 3 for Netflix traffic, but would allow Cogent. Cogent is one of the most evil. They abused this relationship by having Netflix being higher priority than many of their other services, so a large degradation of non-Netflix services would cause customers to call and complain. Level 3, on the other hand, kept Netflix traffic mostly separate.

    My biggest complaint about Netflix on Level 3 is receiving 40Gb/s microbrusts from non-paced TCP streams that average 8Mb/s. There is virtually zero congestion between my home connection and Netflix via Level 3.

  58. Re: Because we're big enough to get the deals we w by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is though. Government regulations are supposed to keep the free hand fair, according to Adams and Smith, the grandparents of capitalism

  59. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't use generic caching for the request patterns Netflix sees. They have spent a lot of time customizing their caching, which is not even dynamic in nature, but static, to reduce cache thrashing. Netflix' infrastructure is an optimized single vision of how everything should work. The software is architected to work well with the hardware and networks, the hardware is architected to work well with the software and network, and the networks are architected to work well with the hardware and software.

    There is almost nothing reusable about their design, it is highly optimized exactly for their use case.

    If you're using a generic dynamic cache, a 100TiB cache would see less than a 50% hit rate with Netflix. While a 100TiB Netflix optimized cache will see in the 80-90% range, and a 10TiB Netflix optimized cache would see about 50%.

    Since there is no way to dynamically determine what data to cache, all you can do is statically partition the data by video streaming provider, and give those provided access to how they want to cache the data. Defeats the entire purpose.

    I'm not sure I buy that. Caching video is caching video. Sure there has to be tuning, and netflix might have to follow a standard, but there is not something mystical about their bytes than other people's bytes. Oh I don't doubt they optimize things very well. I'm just saying the problem of video caching is a generic one with a generic solution. At any rate, the idea of downloading a custom VM that runs on a native server farm also works. As far as determining what data gets cached, you could just use netflix's algorithm, or well any algorithm that determines what is most frequently used. I personally think you could possibly divide all the video into say 16MB chunks. That way a netflix node can fetch data from multiple other netflix nodes to serve a customer by searching for a hash. Then again, for all I know, they may already do that.

  60. This is a good thing, they're saying it's rigged! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why are you all railing on Netflix saying this?
    It's the companies that sneak around and use "quiet" lobbyists and backroom deals that you have to worry about!

    Netflix just publically said that the "rules benefit big corp"!

  61. Not primary battle. Maybe they already lost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the past, I've heard rumors of Netflix paying off the larger ISP to stop accidentally slowing down Netflix (while net neutrality was supposedly in effect) which seems to be supported by better performance by running Netflix Traffic through a VPN . If this is true, then removing Net Neutrality doesn't really effect Netflix as nothing has changed for them.

  62. Re:Because we're big enough to get the deals we wa by Bengie · · Score: 1

    Caching video is caching video

    Said very simplistically. Unless you plan to cache their entire 1PiB+ catalog, you are going to need to make sure your caching strategy has enough storage to be useful. Let say you need 100Gb/s of Netflix bandwidth, and you want to reduce that by 80%. You will need 80Gb/s of bandwidth, plus 100TiB of storage per server. One of the newest Netflix server can handle nearly 80Gb/s, but they're SSD and don't have 100TiB of storage. Lets say you have their 100TiB server but it can only handle 20Gb/s. Now you need 4 of these, which means 400TiB of storage.

    But you mentioned a VM an ISP could get. Now each server can only handle 10Gb/s, so now you need 8 servers, each with 100TiB of storage. Are you starting to see the issue? Netflix is pushing the boundary of IO. Of course there are other ways this problem could be solved, and it could be standardized, but that requires the entire video stream industry to accept a standard and architecture everything to work with that standard. Talking many years of work just to break even with what we have today. but now everyone is tied to a standard and it makes it difficult to innovate how to architect the caching systems, which are in constant flux as new designs are constantly being tested and tweaked.

    You have two choices. 1) Throw money at the problem by using generic services 2) Use highly customized designs that are 10x+ more efficient, but no sharing A third pseudo-option is to make the problem mature more quickly by throwing R&D money at it with the intention of creating a standard that will scale and be useful for the next N years where N is a useful amount of time to invest into a standard.