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Era of 'Biological Annihilation' Is Underway, Scientists Warn (theguardian.com)

Tatiana Schlossberg reports via The New York Times (Warning: source may be paywalled, alternate source): From the common barn swallow to the exotic giraffe, thousands of animal species are in precipitous decline, a sign that an irreversible era of mass extinction is underway, new research finds. The study, published Monday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, calls the current decline in animal populations a "global epidemic" and part of the "ongoing sixth mass extinction" caused in large measure by human destruction of animal habitats. The previous five extinctions were caused by natural phenomena. Dr. Ceballos emphasized that he and his co-authors, Paul R. Ehrlich and Rodolfo Dirzo, both professors at Stanford University, are not alarmists, but are using scientific data to back up their assertions that significant population decline and possible mass extinction of species all over the world may be imminent, and that both have been underestimated by many other scientists. The study's authors looked at reductions in a species' range -- a result of factors like habitat degradation, pollution and climate change, among others -- and extrapolated from that how many populations have been lost or are in decline, a method that they said is used by the International Union for Conservation of Nature. They found that about 30 percent of all land vertebrates -- mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians -- are experiencing declines and local population losses. In most parts of the world, mammal populations are losing 70 percent of their members because of habitat loss.

203 of 359 comments (clear)

  1. The planet will survive by courteaudotbiz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Earth will survive. If we are dumb enough to destroy everything, then maybe a more intelligent lifeform will thrive. Or if we do not get entirely extinct, Darwinism will be the rule once again. Only the best will survive. Only those who can adapt.

    1. Re:The planet will survive by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      Sort of... the carboniferous period isn't going to happen again now that there are enzymes to digest lignin, so any future life will be much worse off than us at developing the tech needed to leave Earth. "Well, we won't kill all the ants" is kind of a Pyrrhic victory.

    2. Re:The planet will survive by courteaudotbiz · · Score: 1

      But if you think in the millions and billions of years (well not too many billions, or the sun will get too hot), anything could happen. We're not the most perfect thing that could exist. Maybe the most overall intelligent species right now, but certainly not perfect. I don't think mammals will be the dominant genus until Earth is engulfed into the Sun... Mammals have proven to have a hard time adapting to hot temps.

    3. Re: The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, it may turn out a lot differently than that. Forget about biological intelligence beyond more than 100 years from now. If trends continue, machine intelligence will be the dominant form by far on this planet, and we may or may not have merged with it. Maximum a few hundred years... Millions.. don't even try to imagine what will be here.

    4. Re: The planet will survive by courteaudotbiz · · Score: 1

      You think the human race will survive long enough for a Matrix-like future? If we are dumb enough to NOT have a kill-switch on those things, I think we deserve this future.

    5. Re:The planet will survive by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1

      Maybe the most overall intelligent species right now, but certainly not perfect.

      We're clearly just a stepping stone until the computers take over forever. In the overall time scale humans will be just a blip. Surely that's what has happened elsewhere, and we don't hear from them because they're just waiting for the evolution to occur.

    6. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Earth will survive. If we are dumb enough to destroy everything, then maybe a more intelligent lifeform will thrive. Or if we do not get entirely extinct, Darwinism will be the rule once again. Only the best will survive. Only those who can adapt.

      Darwin (and anyone who studies evolution) doesn't claim that the best will survive, nor that random mutations beneficial to survival will necessarily bring improvements. It's only about breeding and surviving.

      In a calories-deprived future, people will probably evolve to be stupid (brain is metabolically expensive) and small.
      For example, our distant ancestors had 4-color vision. We don't, and that is a downgrade. Don't know why; perhaps 3-color vision helps save fuel.
      Homo Sapiens are far weaker than Neanderthals, and have smaller brains.
      It questionable in what way Homo is superior to Neanderthals. The Homo may only have the advantage of being able to survive on a lower-calorie diet. Maybe it was only rapid breeding. Maybe it was just that Homo has a greater tendency to murder.
      Other examples are dwarfism on isolated islands, and cave-blindness in cave animals.

    7. Re:The planet will survive by SeattleLawGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The planet is a rock, I don't care if it survives unless it turns out that it is an intelligent rock. I care that we survive, or failing that that our successors survive. And I care that some of our art survives: some of the beauty we have brought into the universe should be remembered, for a time.

      --
      Real lawyers write in C++
    8. Re:The planet will survive by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

      May you be the first to off yourself for the greater good of the species...

    9. Re: The planet will survive by h33t+l4x0r · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about the blue pill future? That's an awesome future!

    10. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Since this is all about habitat loss, which is mainly caused by people clearing land to make way for farmland, we already have a well known proven effective solution to minimize the need for all of that: GMO. Unfortunately, groups like Greenpeace and pretty much every European government have dashed all hopes of that ever seeing global adoption, and the Democrats in the US figure it would be awesome if we made agriculture even less efficient and more wasteful than what we have now by pushing for everybody to go all organic under the (totally false) notion that it is healthier. But you know, because Monsanto exists, obviously we need to throw out GMO technology and never use it again.

    11. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Sort of... the carboniferous period isn't going to happen again now that there are enzymes to digest lignin, so any future life will be much worse off than us at developing the tech needed to leave Earth.

      Also, if we wipe out too many higher organisms, the lower ones won't have as much time to evolve as the first time around. The sun is getting older, and is past its prime. In terms of a human lifespan, Sol is now in early retirement age. Life on Earth has been around for longer than the time until it bloats and starts eating up the inner planets.

    12. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Since this is all about habitat loss, which is mainly caused by people clearing land to make way for farmland, we already have a well known proven effective solution to minimize the need for all of that: GMO.

      There's another solution: Population control. Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely, and yield increases in food is only postponing an inevitable, and ensuring it is worse when it happens. Until we stop breeding as rabbits and depending on population growth to pay for our debts, GMO and similar "solutions" are like peeing your pants to keep warm.

      And if you had bothered to read TFA, you would have realized that GMOs kills biodiversity. We end up with fewer and fewer plant species, and fewer and fewer animals who can survive as other plant species have to give way. That's putting all your eggs in one basket. There's nothing to fall back on if the crops fail due to e.g. new diseases. Because all we have are a few GMOs, because it's the only thing profitable. Potato Famine 2.0 will happen one day. And it will be worse, because we have no biodiversity to fall back on.

    13. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      It questionable in what way Homo is superior to Neanderthals. The Homo may only have the advantage of being able to survive on a lower-calorie diet.

      Homo is a genus, to which both modern man (Homo Sapiens) and neanderthals (Homo Neandertalensis) belong.
      Homo Neandertalensis could even interbreed with Homo Sapiens, so some even classify the two as subspecies: Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Neandertalensis.

    14. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Again this idiocy. There is no shortage of food. There is an excess of population growth and rampant capitalism. GMOs only solve the cash problems of some corporations.

    15. Re:The planet will survive by houghi · · Score: 1

      Please define "best". And I see no reason that humans could not be counted as the best in the future. We might be able to kill everything off and make food from the sun directly, cutting out the middle man.
      Not now, but perhaps in a few hundred or thousand years we might be able to survive without any other life forms.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    16. Re:The planet will survive by azrael29a · · Score: 2

      Buying new seeds with a patent license every season instead of having them from your crops is a solution? Only for Monsanto's revenue growth. Ordinary crops can be grown without having to sign any license.

    17. Re:The planet will survive by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Earth will survive. If we are dumb enough to destroy everything, then maybe a more intelligent lifeform will thrive. Or if we do not get entirely extinct, Darwinism will be the rule once again. Only the best will survive. Only those who can adapt.

      True - well, up to a point. I think it is a misunderstanding to think that "Darwinism" (ie. evolution by natural selection) doesn't rule human evolution just because we are better at controlling diseases etc. Humans and their civilisation are part of nature, just like ants and termites with their complex societies are. Natural selection doesn't care by which means we survive - we have found ways that include technology, that's all; we are still under natural selection. And "the fittest" are not necessarily "the best" in any sense, it is only a label we put on the group that survives a selection event; it could in each case be down to dumb luck, but of course, if you are consistently lucky, then you probably have some trait that makes you better able to survive the sort of crises that the current environment throws at you - thus you may talk about being "fit" for survival.

      Life will probably survive - the question is more how much will be lost this time? In particular, how much of the larger biota will disappear - keeping in mind that humans very much belong to the larger end of the fauna? And if we do survive, but most of the animals bigger than, say, rats go extinct, will we evolve to fill the niches left free: human birds, whales, ..., (like in Ringworld, by Larry Niven)? Sorry, that took us well into science fiction, but you get the idea.

    18. Re:The planet will survive by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      The sun's getting hotter, it might not be billions of years, we may have just screwed the pooch by both increasing CO2 and killing enough life that was the balance to deal with that.

      We may well have just rocked the boat for the last time, the planet isn't going to last forever.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    19. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Remember WHERE and WHO is reproducing at an alarming pace. Just a hint: Not first world countries. Another hint: If first world countries stopped sending food and meds there, the population growth would return to cabal limits.

    20. Re:The planet will survive by Sique · · Score: 1
      It's not the "best" per se, as "the best" is defined by the current circumstances. Whatever works now good enough to survive, will survive now. If that's enough to survive tomorrow too, then it has a chance to survive tomorrow too.

      Survival in ecological terms is mainly about chance. Your personal traits influence the chances, but they don't warrant anything. And traits that are advantageous in one situation might reduce your chances in other situations. Being flashy might help you find a mate, but it doesn't help you if you have to hide.

      I like the subplot of the people of Golgafrincham in The Hitchhiker's Guide as an example. From a Darwinist point of view, the phone desinfectors, key accountants, interior designers and all the other seemingly useless people who were banned from Golgafrincham and sent away with the second space ship were the ones being well adapted. Despite their dozens of victims of the circumstances, the group as a whole managed to get hold on Earth and found a new civilization. The Golgafrincham elite and the Golgafrincham work drones, who died because they got infected by a phone, weren't.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    21. Re:The planet will survive by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Funny

      No shit. I particularly appreciated this though:

      "Dr. Ceballos emphasized that he and his co-authors, Paul R. Ehrlich and Rodolfo Dirzo, both professors at Stanford University, are not alarmists"

      Ahahah. Nice joke.

    22. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > GMOs kills biodiversity.

      We've been doing GMOs for _millennia_. This was the foundation of of our transition from hunter/gatherers into an agrarian society.

      > Growth cannot be sustained indefinitely, and yield increases in food is only postponing an inevitable...

      With modern farming techniques and fertilizers we can more or less fucking turn electricity into food. Let that sink in for a minute.

      The _only_ thing causing human starvation these days is the cruelty and short-sightedness of human politics.

    23. Re:The planet will survive by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Silent Spring, and other ecological works have posited that the destruction wrought will cascade. The Earth will continue to spin, but we could do something like kill off all large mammals, or something like that. It'd be nearly impossible to kill all the fish or insects, but we could give it a try. Maybe if we make grey goo, then we could wipe out everything and prevent anything from living ever again.

    24. Re: The planet will survive by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of farmers already buy seeds every season, Monsanto or no Monsanto.

      It's simply the most efficient way to do it.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    25. Re: The planet will survive by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Genus names are capitalized, species names are not. "Homo sapiens", not "Homo Sapiens".

      For extra pedantry, use the initial letter for the genus after introducing it, except that would be ambiguous. "On our time travels, we saw Homo sapiens, H. habilis, Hadrosaurus foulkii, and Homo neandertalensis. H. neandertalensis was particularly interesting."

    26. Re:The planet will survive by Entrope · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Any ancestors we had with 4-color vision were probably before we became mammals. Most mammals have 2-color vision; only some primates (including humans) have 3-color vision, due to duplication and later mutation of one of the genes that support 2-color vision.

      While we can't say for sure why mammals went down to 2-color vision, the standard explanation is that nocturnal animals do not need the extra color channel, and may be helped if they lose it (e.g. by having more space for rod cells). This explanation is supported by studies of modern mammals, and how one of the two common mammalian cone cells are absent or non-functional in strongly nocturnal mammals. If mammals did not have such a long small-nocturnal-animal phase, we would probably have retained more capacity for color vision.

    27. Re:The planet will survive by hord · · Score: 1

      We haven't been doing GMOs in the same way or at the same rate. The results are different depending on which method of "GMO" you use. Personally I can't seen why people want to eat chemicals from a tube when a cow is easy to make and tastes great.

    28. Re:The planet will survive by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Informative

      Until we stop breeding as rabbits

      We already did: http://data.worldbank.org/indi...

      The continued population growth is because people are living longer, but it's levelling off. We are on target for about 10-11bn by the end of the century, which is sustainable with modern farming methods. The main issues now are all to do with the politics of handling the increase.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    29. Re: The planet will survive by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's simply the most efficient way to do it.

      The most effective way to produce seed is to grow seed crops, not to try to save some percentage of seed from normal crops. But the corollary is that the cheapest seed crop ain't one that you've paid someone else to grow.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    30. Re:The planet will survive by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

      Parent said 'the planet will survive', which is true in the same sense that you'd survive being castrated, but less so in a 'life will go on' way.

    31. Re: The planet will survive by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      No farmer has unlimited land available. You also need to rotate crops for maximum yield, and it gets exponentially harder the more different crops you need to grow.

      Can you grow seed crops slightly cheaper yourself? Probably, but that is also one field that doesn't create any profit for you. It is cheaper to grow crops for consumption on every field, and buy seeds from someone who specializes in growing seed crops.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    32. Re:The planet will survive by rtb61 · · Score: 1

      The smarter move is GMO algae only. Fully genetically customised kelp, as the food source. Pretty much near anything is possible, with customised flavour, texture and trace elements, designed to grow in low light conditions. Large, multi story growing tanks, producing very high volumes of food, with hugely reduced land use and largely recycling water. Don't think stupid soylent green, think customised leaves large, plate sized, thick, with adjusted flavour and texture, peel and you have a steak. Storage pods, the size of your fist and filled with a high protein, low sugar banana custard substitute. Land use would be hugely reduced, allowing the planet to clean itself up.

      The GMO crap they produce now is crap, built in pesticides to kill pests and harm people, herbicide resistant to pass tolerance to closely related species, long life with poor digestibility, basically all the crap ideas. The environment is a real, problem a lot have been damaged well beyond the idea of restoring to the original state, which is really not the wisest idea anyhow.

      Something we need to look at is how to redo damaged environment, not to an original state, but to a more managed, healthy and productive environment, things like do you want the original river back or do you want a good clean productive river, filled with the best species the planet has to offer in a balanced state. (where productive is, cleaning up air and water, promoting quality managed bio-diversity, with low allergens and toxicity).

      Parenting licences are a grand idea, both for having and for looking after, but if you have them in your country, how do you look at other mismanaged countries without them, looking to breed and dump refugees on your country, an interesting problem to solve, prevention an extremely violent thought and of course exclusion, still violent but not as violent or just give up trying to manage your country and just let it go to rot. Refugees should always be a problem solved at it's source and not a problem allowed to spread.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    33. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Birth rates are already below replacement is most advanced first-world countries. It is the global South were population continues to increase and that is who must be convinced.

    34. Re:The planet will survive by geekmux · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Since this is all about habitat loss, which is mainly caused by people clearing land to make way for farmland, we already have a well known proven effective solution to minimize the need for all of that: GMO.

      There's another solution: Population control.

      That solution is already in place and is being improved on every single day. One only has to look at our exiting laws to blatantly see that.

      Think governments care about preventing death? Fuck no. The legal status of a product like tobacco that kills over 400,000 Americans every year, ten times more than all other illegal products, paints a clear fucking picture as to its role in population control. Same goes for alcohol.

      Think we're really doing something about the obesity epidemic? Fuck no. We're merely treating it with perpetual revenue streams that won't actually cure obesity or prevent death. Yet another form of population control.

      Think governments won't legalize marijuana because it's dangerous and deadly? Fuck no. They won't legalize it because it's not deadly enough, and would compete against products that are actually deadly. Sorry, but weed doesn't support the agenda of population control.

      We ensure the largest killers in society remain legal. We don't cure anything deadly anymore. We create perpetual revenue streams from pointless treatments designed to keep you alive long enough to ensure every penny is medically extracted from your ass. Then you simply die, which is population control.

      Ultimately, it's about resource control. We've carved this planet up into countries, which governments have to manage a finite amount of resources within the lines drawn. Population control is merely a component of that responsibility. No one wants to acknowledge that death is ultimately being manufactured, but our laws make it very clear. And it's being improved on all the time.

    35. Re: The planet will survive by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Can you grow seed crops slightly cheaper yourself? Probably, but that is also one field that doesn't create any profit for you. It is cheaper to grow crops for consumption on every field, and buy seeds from someone who specializes in growing seed crops.

      That someone else is making a profit on the same activity in which they would engage. It doesn't use any more or less land when someone else does it. Maybe their farm is so small they don't have room for that activity, in which case if they're not already making a value-added product from their crop, they might as well bend over and kiss their own ass goodbye because their days as a farmer are numbered, and the number is small.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    36. Re:The planet will survive by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The proofs against it proved most of the opinions stated as fact to be true. And there were others that found similar things. When bees die, they take with them many plants, and with them, the food for many animals.

    37. Re: The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Are you talking about the blue pill future? That's an awesome future!

      Well, not if the, ahem, "enhancement," lasts more than 4 hours. If it does, you need to see your doctor immediately.

    38. Re:The planet will survive by skam240 · · Score: 1

      Oh how profound of you. A man made mass extinction is underway and we should just sit back and enjoy the show cause "Darwinism"? That's not even of coherent thought.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    39. Re:The planet will survive by bluegutang · · Score: 1

      Until we stop breeding as rabbits

      We've already stopped breeding like rabbits. Virtually all the developed world now has sub-replacement fertility. So do less-developed countries like China and Brazil and Indonesia and Bangladesh, while India is pretty close to replacement. About the only place left that currently breeds "like rabbits" is sub-Saharan African. Allow for a few more decades of development, and their birthrates will probably plummet as well.

    40. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Breath slowly. There are no helicopters outside the window. Remember to breeeath. Someone will be along to assist you shortly.

    41. Re:The planet will survive by nnet · · Score: 1

      like all viruses, once the host has been consumed, theres nothing left to feed on, the virus dies. thats the fate of humanity the virus on earth.

    42. Re:The planet will survive by nnet · · Score: 1

      s/population control/short term greed/
      FTFY.

    43. Re: The planet will survive by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting to account for specialization. It is less efficient overall to go 50/50 food/seed crops, than it is to go all-in on either.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    44. Re:The planet will survive by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

      On one hand, I would love for the price of good steaks to come down. On the other, I completely see your point.

    45. Re:The planet will survive by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Good luck trying to tell people they can't make more babies. Remember you're talking about one item on a very, very short list of hardwired insticts that all living things have. Trying to institute population control in humans is the stuff that wars are started over. No one would abide by it, especially when you have religious types that insist on their wives being perpetually pregnant, even if they can't afford to take care of the litter of kids they already have.

      If this doesn't turn out to be junk science, here's what I think will happen: as things get more and more desperate, humans will do more and more desperate things to survive, as a race, regardless of how pointless it increasingly becomes obvious it is. This will accelerate the destruction of the Earths biosphere. By the time humans can do nothing more to try to survive, the planet will have sustained so much damage and runaway greenhouse effect that even long after humans are dead and gone as a species, the Earth won't recover. In a million years it'll look like Venus.

      I'm not even going to worry about it, much. I'll be dead in less than 50 years, things likely won't be too desperate by then, and quite frankly there's nothing I, as an individual, can do about it. If there's any chance at all of reversing the trend, it'll defiinitely have to be a top-down solution; those of us here at the bottom can't do enough to make any sort of difference, other than maybe start civil wars over the subject to force our governments to change -- and I don't even see enough popular support to even get people to complain, let alone be willing to fight over it. Not yet, anyway. The common citizen is 'concerned' on an intellectual level, passingly at least, but not enough. They'll have to be in panic mode before any real drastic changes are acceptable, and it'll probably be way too late by then.

    46. Re:The planet will survive by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      For those not familiar with it Paul R. Ehrlich wrote the book The Population Bomb.

    47. Re: The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No farmer has unlimited land available. You also need to rotate crops for maximum yield, and it gets exponentially harder the more different crops you need to grow.

      Can you grow seed crops slightly cheaper yourself? Probably, but that is also one field that doesn't create any profit for you. It is cheaper to grow crops for consumption on every field, and buy seeds from someone who specializes in growing seed crops.

      Indeed the principle here is comparative advantage.

      It is possible for situations to arise where even tough one entity is objectively more efficient at a given task than another it is still better for them to outsource it to the less efficient entity and focus on what they're even better at.

      As an example, If person 1 can make a prop sonic screwdriver in 2 hours and a knitted scarf in 12, and person 2 can make a sonic screwdriver in 10 hours and a knitted scarf in 13 it's still more efficient for person 1 to make 2 screwdrivers and trade one for one of person 2's scarfs than to knit it themself, as that way they both get their Dr. Who costume with less labor invested than if they'd make the whole thing themselves.

    48. Re:The planet will survive by Empiric · · Score: 1

      Only the best will survive. Only those who can adapt.

      0% of actual organisms survive. Set abstractions (e.g. "species") aren't organisms.

      Long term, not even their DNA molecules survive.

      Only the information survives. Information is not, incidentally, materially reducible.

      Just injecting some scientific fact into your mystical (if extremely common) feel-good version of evolution.

      --
      ~ Whence do you come, slayer of men, or where are you going, conqueror of space?
    49. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      The GMO crap they produce now is crap, built in pesticides to kill pests and harm people

      The only built in pesticide is Bt, which is a protein that was discovered a hundred years ago and is only known to be toxic to invertebrates. All farmers (including organic) use Bt liberally, and you eat it all the time.

      herbicide resistant to pass tolerance to closely related species

      Actually there's already a solution to that:

      https://geneticliteracyproject...

      It's also worth noting that the process of using herbicides greatly reduces the amount of water needed, in addition to reducing the landmass and increasing crop yields.

      long life with poor digestibility, basically all the crap ideas

      Where the fuck did you get this from? There isn't any evidence that they aren't digestible. People like you with your constant spewing of lies are why we can't have nice things:

      http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/harves...

      The proteins that have been introduced into foods, to this point in time, have all been shown to be readily digestible and not similar to any known toxins or allergens.

      And don't use some crap source like Greenpeace or some conspiracy theory website if you're going to make a counterpoint.

    50. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      GMO crops are chiefly made to be resistant to strong weed killers.
      It means that non-GMO crops aren't resistant.
      It means that spraying kills other crops. If your neigbors spray, you either have to go GMO too, or your crops will suffer.
      It means killing other plant species (anything not your preferred crop is "weed" to an industrial farmer).
      It means that other life depending on those plants will die too.

      The biodiversity around farm land has already dropped way down in countries that allow GMO compared to those that don't. We go down towards a route of monoculture.

      Even for other GMO modifications, the reason why it's done is because it gives the GMO an unfair advantage over other species. If it didn't, no one would farm GMO. That in itself leads to only going with the highest profit crop/animals. Not diverse crops that developed in different directions based on regional varieties. Those are inconsequential compared to the major boosts that GMO gives. So instead of varieties of grain or cattle that cope with poor soil, rich soil, mountains, sunlight, shade or frost, we go for a single species that does better (gives more profit) than the traditional species for all of those.

      A farmer who saves his best seeds for next year's crops encourages diversity because the best seeds on his hilly clay soil is going to be different from the best seeds in the next valley with loam and early frost. With GMOs, local conditions are ignored in favour of one seed to rule them all, and the local varieties disappear.

    51. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      We've been doing GMOs for _millennia_. This was the foundation of of our transition from hunter/gatherers into an agrarian society.

      No, we haven't. We have done breeding programs, which is not the same at all.

      If farmers A, B and C live in three valleys with slightly different conditions, and start growing the same seed, and each of them save the best seeds for next year's crops, within a few a few generations the crops of A, B and C will differ. They diverge, based on what is best for the local conditions.
      That's creating diversity.

      Then comes Monsanto with a GMO seed that's more profitable than either A, B or Cs local crops. Those crops will then disappear in favor of the one GMO crop. It's not profitable for Monsanto to generate a GMO variety for each customer.
      That's destroying diversity.

    52. Re:The planet will survive by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, the Sun was going to get Earth well over boiling temperature in less than a billion years. No time to waste!

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    53. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      You're right. Modern methods are more precise, more reliable, and take less time. The result is the same as historical methods.

      No, the result is not the same. Traditional breeding programs create regional varieties by selecting for what works best one place, not what works best all places. GMO does the opposite, aiming for The One Seed that everyone will grow, at the expense of local diversity.

      You don't have to go farther than the supermarket to see the results. In a US supermarket, the varieties of produce within the same species is now at an all time low. Go to a few European supermarkets, and you find far more variety, with multiple regional varieties that actually differ. Potatoes, apples or grain grown in one valley being different from those in the next.

    54. Re:The planet will survive by Triklyn · · Score: 1

      and if farmer A were to luck into a crop that had twice the yield of B and C and could survive in their climates through breeding what would happen again?

      dwarf wheat.

    55. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      If there is an extinction event happening because of man's activities it's no different that the extinction event created when the cyanobacteria dumped all that oxygen into the atmosphere about 2.4 billion years ago. That almost killed off all life then.

      One big difference is that it took 2.4 billion years for life to evolve to its current state after the GOE. We don't have that time anymore - in a billion years or so, the energy output from the sun that hits us will be around 10% higher, and we'll likely head into Venus like conditions.
      So we better hope that any catastrophe is on a far smaller scale, like Yucatan level or less.

    56. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      To such thinly veiled racists/classists I always say the same thing;

      You First.

      I have indeed followed my own advice, and have used contraceptives all my life to reduce the risk of propagating the human disease.
      That has nothing to do with racism or classism. It has to do with thinking farther than your own pitiful lifespan.

    57. Re:The planet will survive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > GMO does the opposite, aiming for The One Seed that everyone will grow, at the expense of local diversity.

      Yeah, that damn Gros Michel and that dirty, dirty modern genetic manipulation techniques that created it! And its successor that replaced it after the monoculture was severely diminished by a fungal blight, the Cavendish!

      Man, the folks back in the 1830's were _really_ good at modern genetic modification techniques! What fools they were to tinker with nature in their labs and create vulnerable monocultures!

      Oh... wait...

      As I mentioned in my opening comment, blights and famines happen because of poor stewardship, not because of modern genetic modification techniques.

      Modern genetic modification techniques give us the ability to create _better_ food stock, faster than before. The danger of monocultures is not a new one. It is one that has been with us for millenia. Frankly, it is a problem that we're better able to tackle now than we _ever_ have been.

      There have been _no_ famines or blights in the First World in a _dreadfully_ long time. Modern farming techniques and sensible stewardship are to thank for that.

      A coal miner wouldn't choose a wooden pickaxe over a steel one just because the wooden axe gets the job done slower and requires more effort. Similarly, we should not shun significant improvements to our millenia-old genetic modification programs just because they're superior in every way to the tools we used to use.

      Get a fucking grip and come to your senses. Take a couple of years and really educate yourself about the facts of the matter, rather than cowering in fear and doomsaying.

    58. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but if the Gros Michel's Panama disease was around today, GMO could have saved those bananas. And it still can, as a matter of fact, because the Gros Michel still exists in isolated areas that weren't exposed to that. But Greenpeace and other anti-science groups would throw a fit, like they always do, so we can't have nice things.

    59. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Buying new seeds with a patent license every season instead of having them from your crops is a solution? Only for Monsanto's revenue growth. Ordinary crops can be grown without having to sign any license.

      Actually the reason GMO seeds are so popular is because they are much more profitable for the farmer. If it wasn't, then they'd just buy conventional seed rather than pay extra.

    60. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 2

      Aside from my earlier post about GMO actually being able to increase biodiversity, Greenpeace, who is behind every talking point you've ever made on this topic, has blatantly lied to you, multiple times.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com...

      Greenpeace also likes to hold two opposing arguments at the same time about GMO Bt, depending on which side best fits their pre-conceived narrative (without doing any actual research) on that particular day:

      http://www.slate.com/articles/...

      Further reading where Greenpeace holds double standards:

      https://geneticliteracyproject...
      https://geneticliteracyproject...

      Drop the anti-GMO crusade. It's pure post-truth populism and anti-science bullshit. To date there is not a single good argument against GMO. And if that's not enough, the most of the anti-GMO scientific papers about health impact were authored by a guy who has an established history of manipulating his data in order to fit his activist narrative:

      http://retractionwatch.com/201...

      He's currently under investigation by the Italian senate for scientific fraud. And by the way, GMO has been saving the lives of diabetics allergic to cow and pig insulin since 1982.

    61. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Aside from my earlier post about GMO actually being able to increase biodiversity, Greenpeace, who is behind every talking point you've ever made on this topic, has blatantly lied to you, multiple times.

      I'm sorry if it thwarts your strawman argumentation, but I got none of my "talking points" from Greenpeace.
      I happen to despise Greenpeace.
      That kind of voids most of your post. Sorry.

      And by the way, GMO has been saving the lives of diabetics allergic to cow and pig insulin since 1982.

      You're saying that as if it were a good thing?
      Saving lives is not inherently good. Death is part of life, and a certain amount of deaths before old age is necessary for evolutionary selection to work.
      Save fewer people across the board. It's not like there's a shortage.

    62. Re:The planet will survive by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The proofs against it proved most of the opinions stated as fact to be true.

      The proofs against it were long term studies, not opinions.

      And there were others that found similar things. When bees die, they take with them many plants, and with them, the food for many animals.

      You mean the thing that they're still trying to blame on pesticides, and not a variety of other factors like the current honey bee is nearly a monoculture genus and is very susceptible to mites and fungus? Yeah, sure. Keep telling yourself that. I'll trust my cousin who owns a bee farm that they lease out for pollinating, and started to have that problem...until they introduced new strains into their hives and it suddenly stopped.

      --
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    63. Re:The planet will survive by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Earth is not alive. It is life itself that matters, ultimately ending up in sentient life being what matters (what is beyond sentient life?).

      We are not likely to survive this as species and it is arguable that sentient life will not have enough time to evolve again. It took roughly 2 billion years to get to where we are now from basic chemicals. In 2 billion years from now, the extent of the sun will be growing as it approaches its red giant phase. Furthermore, we have harvested all of the easily found energy resources except for wood.

      All of this culminates in this: We are the last shot at sentience and beyond in this little corner of the Cosmos.

      Wasting it seems such a shame; however, life is arbitrary and ultimately, wasting it is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. There are likely countless other areas in the Cosmos where life is blossoming. Evolution does not care about the individual or the species or the location of that species. ;)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    64. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry if it thwarts your strawman argumentation, but I got none of my "talking points" from Greenpeace.

      That's not what I said. What I said is that the talking points you are making all have their roots in Greenpeace's disinformation campaign. They lied to other people, who then lied to you. Vicariously, they lied to you.

      You're saying that as if it were a good thing?

      Uhh...yeah. While I'm not diabetic myself, I do have a chronic disease that would otherwise result in death, and I very much appreciate treatment available for it. Eventually everybody does, and when you do, I'll just offer you a cyanide tablet.

      For what it's worth, the ideology you are putting across is a central tenet of Nazism.

    65. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      Wow, so I got modded troll while the guy who talks about draconian methods of killing off the population didn't? Typical slashdot.

    66. Re:The planet will survive by arth1 · · Score: 1

      What I said is that the talking points you are making all have their roots in Greenpeace's disinformation campaign. They lied to other people, who then lied to you. Vicariously, they lied to you.

      Again, which is wrong. My understanding comes from my own studies, not eating what others have chewed. Perhaps that's how you like your food, but I prefer to make up my own opinions and not adopt the viewpoint of others.

      For what it's worth, the ideology you are putting across is a central tenet of Nazism.

      I was halfway expecting this. No, it isn't.
      Nazism is an attempt at controlling who lives and who dies, believing their own to be better or more worthy than others.
      Evolutionism is an attempt at not fighting evolution tooth and talon, but accept that not everybody surviving is the primary driving force of evolution, and do our damnedest not to pick who lives and who dies, beyond our own survival instinct. That's diametrically opposite of nazism.

      The belief that life is sacred and lives of children especially so is codswallop based on religious culture. It's an instinct to try to save our own lives and our own children's lives, but nothing about human lives is sacred.
      Death is tough on a personal level, but in the grander scheme, it's necessary. As long as the deaths can be compensated for by reproduction, the herd is better off. Don't interfere when kids risk death, whether it's from viruses, climbing trees, or an urge to kick snakes. Accept that some will die, and that we can compensate for that. Statistically, the replacements will be less likely to have the traits that get them killed.

    67. Re:The planet will survive by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      My understanding comes from my own studies

      Oh ok, this makes it easy: You're making the same boneheaded mistakes that Greenpeace is making. So you're just a bonehead. 'Nuff said.

      By the way: I really like how you had absolutely no response at all to any of the evidence I have provided in favor of GMO: I showed, very clearly, how GMO if used properly can increase biodiversity, can induce the population to reduce its numbers by its own free will, and can reduce habitat destruction preventing a mass extinction. You had absolutely nothing to say about any of this, and completely ignored my direct reply to you.

      You're a textbook one dimensional person, therefore no further discussion on this subtopic is necessary.

      I was halfway expecting this. No, it isn't.
      Nazism is an attempt at controlling who lives and who dies, believing their own to be better or more worthy than others.
      Evolutionism is an attempt at not fighting evolution tooth and talon, but accept that not everybody surviving is the primary driving force of evolution, and do our damnedest not to pick who lives and who dies, beyond our own survival instinct. That's diametrically opposite of nazism.

      This is actually getting comical. You're pulling a page right out of Nazi ideology and you don't even realize it. You are the textbook definition of a social darwinist, and social darwinism is absolutely fundamental to Nazi ideology, just like I said. Without social darwinism there is no Nazism. Sure, the Nazis went further with eugenics and racial hygiene, however those build upon social darwinism, and just plain don't exist without it. Granted, this didn't begin with Nazis, rather it more or less began with Thomas Malthus and then was expanded and defined by Nietzsche and Herbert Spencer. But, nobody actually applied it as a matter of law until Nazi Germany.

      The belief that life is sacred and lives of children especially so is codswallop based on religious culture.

      No, it's not. Sure, religions might claim it as their idea, and they're wrong when they do so, but this actually occurs in nature. Especially with mammals, all of whom MUST care for their young for a long time in order for them to survive at all. Here's a hint for why that is: The word mammal comes from the term "mammary glands". The young CAN NOT survive without them, and the act of using them further reinforces exactly this, hence the fundamental feeling that it is "sacred". I'll let you try to figure out the scientific how and why if you have any brains at all, but you've already failed by pinning this idea on religion.

      Death is tough on a personal level, but in the grander scheme, it's necessary. As long as the deaths can be compensated for by reproduction, the herd is better off.

      What's interesting here is that you're now making an argument in favor of why the population should grow to be very large: You have to have many children in order to guarantee their survival and growth in the situation you describe. Even before modern medicine came around and all but guaranteed longer lifespans, the population was already growing exponentially. Medicine just made it grow even faster for a while, but the population would have grown anyways without it. Where this gets interesting is that in countries where there is advanced medicine, the population is actually *declining*. The global population is only increasing as a result of people in other countries without these luxuries: They breed like rabbits not only to survive, but also they need ever more help in gathering food, which the children help with. GMO can mitigate that as well, by the way.

      But instead of actually paying attention, you just stick to social darwinism as the answer, even though it will more than likely result in the opposite of what you think it will do. This, among other reasons, is why it has been discredited for a long time now.

  2. He emphasized by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1, Troll

    Paul Ehrlich ... not alarmist
    Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

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    1. Re:He emphasized by Troed · · Score: 4, Informative

      Quotes from Paul Ehrlich:

      ***

      “Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make,” Paul Ehrlich confidently declared in the April 1970 issue of Mademoiselle. “The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years.”

      “Most of the people who are going to die in the greatest cataclysm in the history of man have already been born,” wrote Paul Ehrlich in a 1969 essay titled “Eco-Catastrophe! “By[1975] some experts feel that food shortages will have escalated the present level of world hunger and starvation into famines of unbelievable proportions. Other experts, more optimistic, think the ultimate food-population collision will not occur until the decade of the 1980s.”

      Ehrlich sketched out his most alarmist scenario for the 1970 Earth Day issue of The Progressive, assuring readers that between 1980 and 1989, some 4 billion people, including 65 million Americans, would perish in the “Great Die-Off.”

      Paul Ehrlich chimed in, predicting in 1970 that “air pollutionis certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone.” Ehrlich sketched a scenario in which 200,000 Americans would die in 1973 during “smog disasters” in New York and Los Angeles.

      Paul Ehrlich warned in the May 1970 issue of Audubon that DDT and other chlorinated hydrocarbons “may have substantially reduced the life expectancy of people born since 1945.” Ehrlich warned that Americans born since 1946now had a life expectancy of only 49 years, and he predicted that if current patterns continued this expectancy would reach 42 years by 1980, when it might level out. (Note: According to the most recent CDC report, life expectancy in the US is 78.8 years).

      In 1975, Paul Ehrlich predicted that “since more than nine-tenths of the original tropical rainforests will be removed in most areas within the next 30 years or so, it is expected that half of the organisms in these areas will vanish with it.”

      ***

      He's awesome. Please give him more grant money for the comical art value alone.

    2. Re:He emphasized by Whibla · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Quotes from Paul Ehrlich:

      ***

      Yup, he is virtually the dictionary definition of alarmist, and yet...

      “Population will inevitably and completely outstrip whatever small increases in food supplies we make,” Paul Ehrlich confidently declared in the April 1970 issue of Mademoiselle. “The death rate will increase until at least 100-200 million people per year will be starving to death during the next ten years.”

      An estimated 250 million preschool children are vitamin A deficient. An estimated 250,000 to 500 000 vitamin A-deficient children become blind every year, half of them dying within 12 months of losing their sight. (WHO Vitamin A Deficiencies)

      Well, he may have been a few years out, but, as unbelievable as it might seem, his numbers are in the right ball park. (I'm not really interested in any "rationale" for these figures, I'm just pointing them out)

      Paul Ehrlich chimed in, predicting in 1970 that “air pollutionis certainly going to take hundreds of thousands of lives in the next few years alone.” Ehrlich sketched a scenario in which 200,000 Americans would die in 1973 during “smog disasters” in New York and Los Angeles.

      Again, maybe a few years out, (I say maybe because historical figures are both hard to find and considerably less reliable), but: "In new estimates released today, WHO reports that in 2012 around 7 million people died - one in eight of total global deaths – as a result of air pollution exposure. This finding more than doubles previous estimates and confirms that air pollution is now the world’s largest single environmental health risk. Reducing air pollution could save millions of lives.

      Paul Ehrlich warned in the May 1970 issue of Audubon that DDT and other chlorinated hydrocarbons “may have substantially reduced the life expectancy of people born since 1945.” Ehrlich warned that Americans born since 1946now had a life expectancy of only 49 years, and he predicted that if current patterns continued this expectancy would reach 42 years by 1980, when it might level out. (Note: According to the most recent CDC report, life expectancy in the US is 78.8 years).

      Hmm, it almost feels like you're quoting this because you disagree with the premise. Are you suggesting that DDT (and many other chemicals, manufactured in large quantities during the last century, such as CFC's, tetra-ethyl lead, etc.) are not harmful to human health and do not reduce life expectancy?

      Granted, his maths on life expectancy contained a rather basic mistake, but I'd say the principles he was warning about were, and are, valid.

      In 1975, Paul Ehrlich predicted that “since more than nine-tenths of the original tropical rainforests will be removed in most areas within the next 30 years or so, it is expected that half of the organisms in these areas will vanish with it.”

      Yup, blatant exaggeration (scare-mongering, alarmism, call it what you will)! In reality rates of deforestation at the start of this century were around 5.4 million ha/yr with estimates giving around 1803 million ha of tropical forest globally in 2000. Assuming a constant rate of deforestation (a BIG assumption) this means we've only removed about 8% of global rainforest over 30 years. I'm a little more hesitant to pooh-pooh the 50% species loss figure because, while it sounds inconceivable, some species are not numerous, have very small ranges, and are very very 'fragile'. 50% biomass loss, not a chance, 50% of number of species ... unlikely but we have to admit the possibility, and that in itself should be cause enough for us to do something to prevent it (in fairness I think we,

    3. Re:He emphasized by Troed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm unsure whether you meant to claim that the numbers you gave supported him, but no, they really don't. Saying he's right on "principles" while being horribly wrong on the actual facts is the whole point. He claims the number X will happen REALLY SOON NOW - BE SCARED!, and X doesn't happen. ... and that's been the case throughout his whole career.

      1) He did not mean soot from wood burning stoves in India/Africa with "smog" btw, that's where the millions of deaths due to pollution comes from. Electrify now! Doesn't matter if it's coal plants or solar for this.

      2) Food supply has outstripped demand. Vitamin A deficiency is a real threat though, so make sure to hit the nearest anti-GMO protestor on his/her head since they're blocking golden rice.

      3) DDT hadn't reduced life expectancy to 42 years. Neither has anything else. You can't be right "on principles" when you're so horribly wrong on the facts.

    4. Re:He emphasized by skam240 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'll just cut and paste my responce from a post just like yours posted above.

      Well none of that rediculousness changes the fact that the population counts of most large mammals are crashing globally.

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    5. Re:He emphasized by Sporkinum · · Score: 2
      --
      "He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
    6. Re:He emphasized by scatbomb · · Score: 1

      >100-200 million people dying per year

      >250,000 people with vitamin A deficiency

      >right ball park

      You're an idiot. 250,000 is in the same ballpark as 100-200 million in the same manner that $1 is about the same as $1000. In other words, you're an idiot.

    7. Re:He emphasized by skam240 · · Score: 1

      This isnt exactly niche knowledge here unless you're being willfully ignorant.

      In the interest of saving myself time here's this for you

      http://bfy.tw/CpUB

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    8. Re:He emphasized by skam240 · · Score: 1

      Oh jesus christ, read the fucking articles. It's largely large mammals whose populations are dropping the most, not fucking mice.

      You really are willfully ignorant.

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    9. Re:He emphasized by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I read the article, but strangely when I look up populations of large mammals - they seem stable or growing, generally (with few exceptions). The article doesn't state which mammals, just the general claim. So - which mammals? The claim is made, it is on the claimant to provide data.

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    10. Re:He emphasized by skam240 · · Score: 1

      That wasn't a single article I linked to. Furthermore, your obsession with "large mammals" and "mammals" is a dumb semantics game. Is it some how just fine if mammals in general are in decline but large mammals "aren't" (which they are). the difference between "large mammals" and "mammals in general" is irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

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    11. Re:He emphasized by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      His claim is wrong. Biodiversity is still extremely high. But hey - that scientific graph I linked doesn't really lend itself to a "doom and gloom/man is evil!" kind of mantra, does it?

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    12. Re:He emphasized by skam240 · · Score: 1

      I don't know what's wrong with you but you should avoid serious conversations with adults to try look smarter going forwards.

      You just posted a time line of 500 million years and then tried to claim that it proved that there hasnt been mammal population decline in recent human history when that graph wouldn't even register the 6,000 years or so that there have been human civilizations let alone the relatively recent period in human history where there have been the massive declines.

      Furthermore, it's clear you not only don't understand the time frame and how that effects what's shown on the graph but that you also have no knowledge of what the Phanerozoic Eon is that the graph you posted is meant to illustrate.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      The Phanerozoic Eon encompasses a timeline that stretches from the first complex life forms (which means it starts with little to no life on land and almost nothing but bacteria in the oceans) to modern day. Of course there's a major increase of bio diversity over time, it's the entire history of complex life.

      Anyways, it's too irritating talking to you because over the course of multiple posts you have demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge on the subject at hand, an opinion that you do, a complete unwillingness or inability to properly read up on a topic even after being provided a list of sources, and one of my least favorites, trying to change the discussion to be about an irrelevant semantics issue. I'm done with this conversation.

      and posting a graph that you dont even understand as "evidence"? Honestly, as I'm finishing this there's a small part of me that wonders "Has this conversation been for real or am I really just getting fucked with by a troll here?" If you are a troll, kudos to you. You play the infuriating idiot well.

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  3. Game over. by Narcocide · · Score: 1

    Somehow I always knew it would end like this.

  4. And it won't stop by fredrated · · Score: 1, Insightful

    until we extinct ourselves.

    1. Re:And it won't stop by Obfuscant · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      until we extinct ourselves.

      No, Mr. Little, the extinction of species will continue as long as there are species and change. We don't need to be here for it to happen. At least that's what Rexamundo, the T-Rex I keep in my basement, tells me. He speaks quite fondly of his boyhood chums Dippy the diplodocious and Pterry (who was a star on Pee Wee's Playhouse.)

  5. Re:Natural Phenomena by fredrated · · Score: 1

    You are a fucking genius.

  6. Naming suggestion by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Funny

    They haven't decided whether to call it the "Holocene extinction" or "Anthropocene extinction".

    How about the Covfefecene extinction?

    1. Re:Naming suggestion by Solandri · · Score: 1

      The paper defines the period as 1900-2015. TFA lists the causes as "habitat loss, overexploitation, invasive organisms, pollution, toxification, and more recently climate disruption." Attributing it to climate change denial exclusively is a gross mischaracterization.

  7. Re:Natural Phenomena by courteaudotbiz · · Score: 1

    What you don't agree? I think AC is 100% correct.

    Humans are part of the ecosystem, have developed in a way that they are conscious of what they are doing (or not...), and know that they can have an impact (tiny or global) on the planet. Now if we REALLY cause a mass extinction because of our actions, it will still be a "natural" cause.

    If this extinction was caused by another species on our planet, would it be more natural? Absolutely not. it would be the exact same shit. Now let's say it would be caused by an extraterrestrial species coming to annihilate us. Would it be natural? Absolutely. They have evolved in a way that they can rule the galaxy, and we haven't. Nature is not just trees, flowers and other animals. We are also part of it.

  8. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by alexo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Humans = the ultimate form of pollution.

    Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague.

  9. the beauty of science ... by swell · · Score: 1

    ... is that what we destroy, we can replace. We are at the beginning of a revolution in bioscience, the likes of which will dwarf the digital age. Plants and animals that can't adapt to the new world will be replaced with organisms that are ideal. Perhaps more importantly, we will adapt. Humans 100 years hence will little resemble ourselves. Our bodies will be much smaller and more efficient, our brains will be enhanced in several ways, our metabolism will be optimized and our lifespan will be vastly improved. We will have holo museums to show our children how primitive humans lived in the past of today.

    Assuming we don't destroy the planet and ourselves first.

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
    1. Re:the beauty of science ... by helpfulcorn · · Score: 1

      Pfft no way! That's playing god! No GMOs! No science! Don't you dare ever bring back something from extension even if it was humanity's fault! Let the next asteroid, super volcano, ice age, or the ultimate death of the sun be how all animals die! I refuse to allow anyone to commit dangerous and repelling acts of science against nature, even it means countless of species will die out that could otherwise be saved -- especially if they're fellow humans, they should especially suffer! My delusions of the purity of nature and masturbatory views of ecology matter more than any sort of "species," and maybe I have enough time to throw in some anti-technology rhetoric while responding to you on the Internet. After all, there are natural forests of granola trees and organic farming during the Middle Ages provided abundance for all!

    2. Re:the beauty of science ... by helpfulcorn · · Score: 1

      Plus also, let me pretend that wasn't a typo and I'm calling for the extinction of all extensions, end modular programming too!

    3. Re:the beauty of science ... by Boronx · · Score: 1

      I don't think we have the imagination to come up with the dog, for example.

    4. Re:the beauty of science ... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I don't think we have the imagination to come up with the dog, for example.

      Sony AIBO.
      Or even more ideal, the pet rock.

    5. Re:the beauty of science ... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      the beauty of science ... (Score:2)
      by swell ( 195815 ) Alter Relationship on 07-12-17 21:18 (#54798469) ... is that what we destroy, we can replace.

      The beauty of not beginning a comment in the subject line is that repliers don't have to hack all that shit out to quote you. Asshole.

      Anyway, what you said is as stupid as how you said it. It's always easier to destroy a thing than to create a thing because entropy is on your side when you break things, but you have to fight it every step of the way when you create things.

      --
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  10. Re:I was just discussing this ... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    If you think about Darwin and the evolution of species, it's based on adaptation and natural selection, which implies that those species that are not well adapted -- go EXTINCT because they all die.

    That's irrelevant when cataclysm or just the rate of change messes up the spreadsheets.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  11. Re:Natural Phenomena by Riceballsan · · Score: 1

    I agree, what I think we really need is a term that actually points out what is somewhat unique with regards to humans. What is somewhat unique of humans in earths present and future, is the knowledge and intent, IE the fact that we have actual scientists yelling at people to warn of the consiquences. If say theories that dinosaurs caused some climate change events by excessive methane, or certain plants caused excessive cooling due to taking carbon out of the air, to meteor crashes. Not one of those causes, had the capacity to know what it was doing to life on the planet. Yet certain humans may very well cause an extinction event, of which the last survivors will be thinking, why didn't we/they listen to the warnings that were being given 50 years in advance.

  12. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just because mass extinctions happen doesn't mean they are a good idea.

  13. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by swell · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes. The human presence has been destructive ... like a virus ...

    Now note that viruses (virii?) adapt. A big problem in the medical field.

    And people adapt. You may have heard that we are becoming aware of our environmental impact. You may have heard that it is a matter of great concern in some circles. You may know that many people in many diverse fields of science and government and the private sector are taking vigorous action to correct our ignorant mistakes of the past.

    --
    ...omphaloskepsis often...
  14. this is not nonsense! by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

    What I wish to know is what they propose to do to stop this from proceeding. I hear a lot about, Oh My God, but not what to do? My 2 cents ;)

    1. Re:this is not nonsense! by arth1 · · Score: 1

      What I wish to know is what they propose to do to stop this from proceeding. I hear a lot about, Oh My God, but not what to do? My 2 cents ;)

      It's a little more than 2 cents, but putting a rubber on your schlong is a good start. Human population growth is the main cause of habitat loss and reduced biodiversity for other species.

    2. Re:this is not nonsense! by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

      I did not have children, did you or do you intend to? So your for schlong control, lol right like that works. Elites (No I am no way in that club) don't have many kids. others do. What do YOU propose we do about that, since your so concerned? Your subject not mine ;)

    3. Re:this is not nonsense! by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Instead of like now, taxes from everyone going towards children (schools are often the biggest expense for towns), do the opposite - a parental tax.
      Subsidize sterilization, birth control and abortion. Stop giving tax breaks to religions that oppose either.

      In other words, hit people where it really hurts - their wallet.

    4. Re:this is not nonsense! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      So, encourage reproduction among the upper classes, then? Only the "Right People" should have kids? How very Nineteenth Century British of you....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    5. Re:this is not nonsense! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's a little more than 2 cents, but putting a rubber on your schlong is a good start. Human population growth is the main cause of habitat loss and reduced biodiversity for other species.

      The problem is that the people who are actually listening to you could have twice as many kids and nobody would notice, compared to all the people who don't give a shit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:this is not nonsense! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Human population growth is stopping worldwide. Give women education, access to birth control, and cut infant mortality and population levels off or declines slightly.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  15. Re:A virus is not an organism. by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

    Ladies and gentlemen, I present the Randian enviromentalist....

  16. Re:I was just discussing this ... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

    I call bullshit. Everyone knows you don't scale a coelacanth. You skin them, and then separate the drumsticks.

    --
    If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  17. Ehrlich the big mouth by ishmaelflood · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ah, thank you. Amongst Ehrlich's funny predictions

      "By the year 2000 the United Kingdom will be simply a small group of impoverished islands, inhabited by some 70 million hungry people."
    " I would take even money that England will not exist in the year 2000."
    "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s hundreds of millions of people will starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now. At this late date nothing can prevent a substantial increase in the world death rate ..."
    in 1970, he warned that "[i]n ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish."
    In 1968 he wrote "India couldn't possibly feed two hundred million more people by 1980." Well, you can argue about that one, since the population hadn't grown by 200 million in that timeframe, but now the populationis 800 million greater and don't look worse off than back then..

    So great, in the opinion of his co-author Ehrlich isn't an alarmist. I'd call; him a hysterical headline grabber with a predictiveusefulness of zero.

    1. Re:Ehrlich the big mouth by Rockoon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ..and yet he still gets government grants for research.

      This guy has been wrong again and again for 50 years, and he is still getting government funding, and his papers still pass peer review.

      Meanwhile the press is calling him "not an alarmist"

      Open your eyes people. Words are cheap.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Ehrlich the big mouth by schleimkeim · · Score: 1

      And he really doesn't seem to like the United Kingdom. What's up with that?

    3. Re:Ehrlich the big mouth by skam240 · · Score: 1

      Well none of that rediculousness changes the fact that the population counts of most large mammals are crashing globally.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
  18. Natural phenomena by Khyber · · Score: 1

    So, what, humanity isn't a natural phenomena?

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  19. actually ani al do NOT reach equilibrium by aepervius · · Score: 2

    If there are no predator, herbivore multiply and will eat every greenerie available for example. Nature do not care for equilibrium, it cares only fir fitness to reproduction, and overwhelming an environment with offspring work well. It is only because prey are paired with predator that an equilibrium SEEM to be reached on small time scale. But look again on bigger time scale and you see the same, that species can go out of equilibrium, change environment sonetime for the worst, and there are period of extinction. That is why this is the sixth and not the first.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
    1. Re:actually ani al do NOT reach equilibrium by danbert8 · · Score: 1

      Yep, that's why the summary is completely misleading bullshit...

      The previous five extinctions were caused by natural phenomena.

      If by natural phenomena you mean a single species reproducing to cover the entire planet and emitting a gas that made the planet change in climate entirely, then sure. It's easy to blame humans as not being a natural occurrence, but we are. And we are not the first natural phenomena to do so.

      It's so misleading to claim that we are not natural by defining natural to be everything but us.

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
  20. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by alexo · · Score: 1

    Yaknow, when you're quoting a genocidal slavemaster to support your argument, you're not really making a good point for your side. Just sayin'.

    I had an argument? Pray tell me what would it be.

    The AC post above me reminded me of that quote, so I posted it.

    Oh, and that would be a *fictional* genocidal slavemaster, from a movie meant to entertain.

  21. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a fun quote delivered by a good actor, but I hope you don't take it as something intelligent. With the exception of some species of island birds (Watch "Parrots, The Universe, and Everything"), humans are actually one of the only species that avoids explosive population growth. Incidentally, that video is good viewing for anyone who thinks high mortality rates are the only way to control reproduction in safe environments. It's the nonhuman mammals that become invasive. Try googling "mouse plague" for starters. Now THAT'S a mammalian virus! You can argue that humans cause species invasions, but that's still just transportation; everything thereafter is natural behavior in a temporarily favorable environment.

  22. Re:Extinction is a natural occurrence by Boronx · · Score: 1

    So...mass extinctions don't happen? What is your point?

  23. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by alexo · · Score: 1

    It's a fun quote delivered by a good actor

    Which was the sole reason for its inclusion.

  24. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    The whole point of this story is that humans are evil exterminating monsters. Quoting a genocidal slavemaster really doesn't help.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  25. the highest on the food chain lose first. by chromaexcursion · · Score: 1

    I wonder if those have considered have noted how the highest fall first and hardest.
    even within a species.
    not quite the same, but 1789. come to mind.

  26. Prophecy by XSportSeeker · · Score: 1

    As foretold by Methus- I mean, George Carlin
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

  27. Many will die, some will survive by Arzaboa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Some species will take advantage of this new world, some won't. Opportunistic species will take over, whether it be slime in the ocean, or mosquitoes on land. Viruses are primed to hit hard with all of the meat on the planet. We are just in a period of massive flux. What shakes out may very well be less people, with a lot of technology.

    1. Re:Many will die, some will survive by skam240 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This isnt a mass extinction event, it's "just a period of massive flux"?

      That's exactly what a mass extinction is, you're just rewording things to make them sound more pleasent.

      "It's not a tax cut for the wealthy, we're just reducing their taxes". How in keeping with the the times you are.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    2. Re:Many will die, some will survive by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

      Tech would be the first thing to go if there's a human population crash. Best case you get a 'book of the new sun' style medieval level of tech with small amounts of high tech floating around amongst the elite.

  28. Re:Extinction is a natural occurrence by Rockoon · · Score: 1

    This guy also previously predicted that England would be gone by the year 2000.

    --
    "His name was James Damore."
  29. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Presence+Eternal · · Score: 1

    That's cool, that's cool. I just worry about the influence of such things sometimes. I think there must have been cases of kids growing up with The Prime Directive and going on to make policy decisions that allowed entire peoples to be erased. Like maybe they took the very well meaning anti-colonial message and turned it into something that isolates indigenous peoples from potential help while doing nothing to protect them from those who are more rapacious. Or even worse if they accepted the later interpretations, which discard the fear of colonialism and literally argue it's better for a people to "die pure". As if a culture's 'purity' were somehow more precious than the combined lives of every single person within it. I dunno, maybe I overthink or underthink this stuff.

  30. Re:More alarmist nonsense by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Informative

    Can we stop posting the exaggerated climate change and mass extinction crap that causes scientists to lose credibility with the public because of a few irresponsible people?

    TFS lost all credibility with me when it described Paul Ehrlich as "not an alarmist". This is the guy who famously predicted that human civilization would collapse in the 1980s, and that was the "best case" scenario.

  31. Re: A virus is not an organism. by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

    Well, I'll bet he never gets killed by a whale he just freed from fishing line.

    --
    If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
  32. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    Dinosaurs went extinct in a mass extinction that had 70% of species dies off that almost ended all life on earth. ELEs are scary. And that happened, what, once in the history of earth. The dodo was massacred by humans.

    But, yeah, say how non-plused you are. It definitely makes you sound mature/intelligent, and not like a idiot.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  33. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by sheramil · · Score: 5, Funny

    Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague.

    (Agent Smith then proceeds to make billions of copies of himself)

  34. Re:Natural phenomena by skam240 · · Score: 1

    You must be new to the english language so I'll help you.

    Humanity is typically seperated from the natural world in contexts like this due to the conscience nature of our actions. An asteroid or a volcano are considered natural as they are events that literally just happen "naturally" where as humans choose to do or not do things.

    --
    I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
  35. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by arth1 · · Score: 2

    Now note that viruses (virii?) adapt.

    If being pedantic, the plural of virus is virus. It's a group noun like "slime" (it actually means slime in Latin), "money" and "people", which all lack a singular. You should only say "viruses" for the same reasons you'd say "slimes", "monies" and "peoples", i.e. only to refer to multiples of separate groups. Which is rarely needed.

    In common parlor, "viruses" is what's used as the plural.
    But if you otherwise use plurals like "fora", "octopodes" and "aquaria", by all means use "virus" as a plural too.
    I'll applaud your effort, futile as it may be.

  36. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Dorianny · · Score: 1

    Actually the correct term is "Invasive Species"

  37. Want the truth by oldgraybeard · · Score: 2

    If the human race does not move in to space WE will go extinct.

    1. Re:Want the truth by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      If the human race does not move in to space WE will go extinct.

      While that's true on a long timescale, on the immediate timescale, there is not enough time to get enough of humanity off the planet in order for it to survive. The only way to make enough time is to address the environmental damage that we're not only ignoring, but actually increasing.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Want the truth by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >there is not enough time to get enough of humanity off the planet

      Sure there is. If we discovered the Earth was doomed (say, a Mars-sized rock was headed our way but we had a few decades), we could (in theory) put a massive concrete cylinder in orbit, spin it for artificial gravity, build a city inside, have a few hundred years' worth of spares and replacement volatiles, and put a big-ass nuclear Orion drive on the back end and ship off a sustainable breeding population to an extra-solar planet.

      > in order for it to survive.

      Oh. Well, if you're going to be THAT picky... we probably need a couple of hundred years' worth of medical and environmental technology advancements if we expect to have great odds of surviving the trip, and non-zero odds of surviving at the destination.

    3. Re:Want the truth by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Oh. Well, if you're going to be THAT picky...

      I really must insist on survival, and not merely shipping a container of bacteria into space with human sludge to feed upon. I mean, I still think that would be an interesting experiment, but I'm not going to pay for it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Want the truth by The123king · · Score: 1

      I really must insist on survival, and not merely shipping a container of bacteria into space with human sludge to feed upon. I mean, I still think that would be an interesting experiment, but I'm not going to pay for it.

      I'll happily pay for it. After all, something similar is my explanation as to how life appeared on earth in the first place (transported from Mars on asteroids)

      --
      If you gave me a choice between a printer and a giraffe with explosive diarrhoea, i'll get my ladder and my raincoat
    5. Re:Want the truth by Baron_Yam · · Score: 2

      >After all, something similar is my explanation as to how life appeared on earth in the first place (transported from Mars on asteroids)

      Panspermia just moves the problem of how biogenesis happened one step further back. I also find the idea of Mars as a better warm wet rock on which life could form than Earth to be very iffy.

      After all, it may not even have been potentially habitable for as long as we believe it took life to appear on Earth, a few billion years ago the Sun was a bit cooler, and we don't know what kind of magnetic field Mars had back in the day.

      It's an interesting theory, but (IMHO) not worth seriously working on until we've managed to reasonably exclude the possibility of local biogenesis... and we don't understand enough to do anything like that just yet.

    6. Re:Want the truth by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      Heck, I'll probably go extinct in a few decades!

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  38. WHEN ? - Demographic Transition. by DrYak · · Score: 1

    Remember WHERE and WHO is reproducing at an alarming pace. Just a hint: Not first world countries.

    Depends if you add a "WHEN" question, then you hint gets completely wrong.

    When meds and industrial agriculture where developed in what you now consider "First world countries", those pesky westerner also had a huge demographic explosion (because they kept their old habits of reproducing like rabbits on the ground that most of their children won't even reach adulthood).
    But eventually we got wiser and adapted.

    And the same adaptation is currently happening in nearly most of these other countries you allude to. We'll never reach the initially predicted 25 billions.
    It's called DEMOGRAPHIC TRANSITION, and it's actually a thing, whether or not it surprise your bigoted xenophobic view of the world and all the people who happen to be different than you.

    Another hint: If first world countries stopped sending food and meds there, the population growth would return to cabal limits.

    Another hint: if we stopped selling food and meds to you, you'll probably turn into a raving survivalist cannibal savage in no time.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
    1. Re:WHEN ? - Demographic Transition. by arth1 · · Score: 1

      And the same adaptation is currently happening in nearly most of these other countries you allude to. We'll never reach the initially predicted 25 billions.

      A flattening out of the population isn't enough. We need to get it down to a pre-explosion level and let other "species" reclaim a majority of the areas that we have expanded into in order stop the decline in biodiversity. There's nothing that indicates that that will happen.

  39. Food shortage : complex. by DrYak · · Score: 1

    There is no shortage of food.

    Depends on how you consider the details :

    - Indeed, there's no shortage of food, if your target is just to feed the population and keep it alive.
    The planet can more or less roughly procude enough food to keep everyone alive.
    We *currently* are not at risk of becoming Soylent Green movie.

    - BUT if every single human being decided to eat as much (both in terms of volume, caloric intake, composition (meat vs. veggies), etc.) as the typical westerner, and use as much resource for everything else, you'd need about 3 planets earth worth of production to sustain the current population at that train of life.

    GMOs only solve the cash problems of some corporations.

    Which is exactly the topmost reason why I'm against GMO.

    I'm not fundamentally against genetic tweaking (common, I'm working in lifescience research. I should pretty well know that we've been doing tweaking since the beginning of agriculture - just with way more lower tech tools. But one can see the difference between modern crops and their closest wild relatives).

    I'm fundamentally against what is essentially a lock-in business by companies that managed to bring out the worst of IP rights.
    (Patents on life ? Common. That's a much against the fundamental idea of patents as you can be).

    (Not to mention that over relying on the few commercially available GMO crops would increase the risks of monoculture).

    In short : I'm not against GMO per se, I am against all the shit that current GMO companies are doing.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  40. Re:I was just discussing this ... by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

    Dinosaurs went extinct in a mass extinction that had 70% of species dies off that almost ended all life on earth. ELEs are scary. And that happened, what, once in the history of earth.

    Five major extinctions happened, only one of them had an external cause (asteroid). For the others, climate change was one of the main reasons.

    --
    NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  41. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by danbert8 · · Score: 1

    In what language is "person" not a singular form of "people?" Not only that, there also exists proper usages for "peoples" and "persons."

    --
    Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
  42. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Whibla · · Score: 1

    Now note that viruses (virii?) adapt.

    If being pedantic, the plural of virus is virus. It's a group noun like "slime" (it actually means slime in Latin), "money" and "people", which all lack a singular. You should only say "viruses" for the same reasons you'd say "slimes", "monies" and "peoples", i.e. only to refer to multiples of separate groups. Which is rarely needed.

    In common parlor, "viruses" is what's used as the plural.
    But if you otherwise use plurals like "fora", "octopodes" and "aquaria", by all means use "virus" as a plural too.
    I'll applaud your effort, futile as it may be.

    Good post, succinct and informative, but I can't help but wonder if you're completely correct in all your assertions and word usage:

    (1) If people lacks a singular then what is the plural of person? Sure, you can use persons but I'm going to suggest there's an alternative...

    (2) Are you sure you intended to use parlor, and not parlance? /pedantry

  43. Endless Sprawl by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You need a PhD to understand how dozens of strip malls and endless home plans and urban sprawl slaughter everything ?
    Um, kinda obvious humans are exterminating all life on Earth to everyone with eyes and a brain...

  44. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 4, Informative

    > Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Y

    "Instinctively develops" such a relationship? I'd say "no". Many mammals, introduced to new environment, have no means to make such accommodation and devastate ecosystems. A very classic example is the introduction of rabbits to Australia's ecosystem: others include the introduction of goats almost anywhere, since goats are notorious for cropping plants much closer to the root and destroying the plant parts of ecosystems.

    The idea that all mammals "develop a natural equilibrium" ignores the cycles of population growth and decline of simple predator/prey relationships, like the well analyzed one between wolves and rabbits described at https://stanford.edu/~ajspakow... . These equilibria don't require instinct, nor does there seem to be "insinct" involved. They only require negative feedback from the environment.

  45. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by geekmux · · Score: 1

    Yes. The human presence has been destructive ... like a virus ...

    Now note that viruses (virii?) adapt. A big problem in the medical field.

    And people adapt. You may have heard that we are becoming aware of our environmental impact. You may have heard that it is a matter of great concern in some circles. You may know that many people in many diverse fields of science and government and the private sector are taking vigorous action to correct our ignorant mistakes of the past.

    Knowing about something, and fucking doing something about it, are worlds apart. Greed doesn't give a fuck about anything but Greed. Those "circles" will not be heard no matter what. The continued poisoning of our planet, and governments who would rather support Greed above everything else, prove this.

    The human species will ultimately learn. Unfortunately, it will be the hard way.

  46. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

    How many of those climate changes were caused by humans?

    --
    Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  47. Wasn't funny even when George Carlin Said it by DumbSwede · · Score: 2

    I’ve found this reasoning specious ever since it was part of a George Carlin skit. The Earth is essentially a large rock that happens to have a thin coat of delicate living goo on it. The rock of course will go on. Now if that thin goo is reduced to just some kind of primitive microbial mat, well then yes the Earth and life has gone on, and evolution will kick in to start the climb again. But the whole “Earth will go on” statement seems to imply Earth and its ecosystem are just too big to fail or that it doesn’t matter that it is no longer habitable by humans, all that matters is somehow, some form of life be here and start evolving again. How about we care about the all the life that is here now, both animal and human?

  48. In Other News: Cancer Rates are SKYROCKETING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Cancer rates are also SKYROCKETING!!! Not because more people are getting cancer, but because of better diagnostic coverage, better discipline in people getting checkups due to the ACA, and overall people paying closer attention to their health.

    Species are going extinct, for sure. We are just more aware of it because we are paying closer attention than we ever have before. I imagine extinction rates are not actually going up that much, if at all, but because we have done so much more exploration for new species, implemented many many more monitoring programs, and in general have cared more about it, we are more aware of extinction when it does happen instead of simply not noticing it.

    1. Re:In Other News: Cancer Rates are SKYROCKETING by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You're making that up. We really are losing species at a very rapid rate.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  49. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by elistan · · Score: 1

    Humans = the ultimate form of pollution

    In the sense of ultimate meaning final or last or most recent, sure. But not in the sense of best or greatest - in my opinion that honor should go to the photosynthesizing plants, starting with cyanobacteria, that pumped tremendous amounts of oxygen into the air, fundamentally changing the preferred biological processes for living on Earth. (Of course this also depends on what one defines as 'pollution.') Humans are altering climate and geologic features, and thereby changing coastlines and what plants and animals live where, but at the moment at least it doesn't appear that we're changing the molecular composition of the air, water and land enough force life to adopt fundamentally new chemical processes to survive. (Although it'd be ironic if our actions were to, say, alter the acidity of the oceans enough to kill off a significant portion of the oxygen-producing life in it that the atmosphere over time becomes difficult to breathe by humans...)

  50. Re:I was just discussing this ... by buchner.johannes · · Score: 1

    The climate change in this one is much, much faster than that of any previous extinctions.

    --
    NB: The message above might reflect my opinion right now, but not necessarily tomorrow or next year.
  51. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    He's successful? Please elaborate AC, that is definitely not cremier.

    • Success is getting up at 4:30AM to be at work at 7:00AM.
    • Success is getting through three meetings and two training sessions while fighting off a horde of 14-year-old wankers on Slashdot.
    • Success is coming home to build a side business while fighting off a horde of 14-year-old wankers on Slashdot.
    • Success is going to bed at 10:30PM to get a good night sleep.
  52. We're not natural? by LoLobey · · Score: 1

    "The previous five extinctions were caused by natural phenomena." Why are humans not considered a natural phenomena?

    --
    We have nothing to fear but fear itself! And Spiders!
    1. Re:We're not natural? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A long time, an efficient form of life appeared that suffused the atmosphere with a deadly gas, now making up about 20% of it, causing mass extinction. That's about as natural as what we're doing.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    2. Re:We're not natural? by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Sure. You still haven't explained to me how that isn't natural. Just because we're doing it, doesn't mean it's not natural, because we're part of nature.
      Let me guess, it wasn't "natural" for this to happen either? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      If we're not filling the atmosphere with "a deadly gas", something else will, eventually. We're not special, just stupid.
      Maybe they mean "Extinctions caused by reasons outside our control." sure, but we weren't even around back then, so that's just plain obvious.

      --
      I tend to rant.
    3. Re:We're not natural? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      For some things, a natural vs. artificial distinction makes sense. I'm not at all convinced it's different for extinction-level events, so I'm largely agreeing with you.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    4. Re:We're not natural? by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

      Awesome, I always prefer happy endings.

      --
      I tend to rant.
  53. Re:Excelsior, true believers! by Gilgaron · · Score: 1

    Eh, it is hard enough to get the politicians to see that there's a problem, solutions need to be worked out next.

  54. Re: More alarmist nonsense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Ehrlich bungled some predictions but with the general message he was not wrong and - this is key - he called for action on population when it could have the most effect back in the 70s. At this point the damage is already done.

  55. We're not natural? by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 2

    From TFS : "The previous five extinctions were caused by natural phenomena."

    Why are we acting like human's aren't natural? Yes it might be our fault that this is happening, but we as a species are a "natural phenomena". We're not some extra-dimensional beings or anything special. We're as much a part of nature as nature is a part of us. We just choose to abuse and ruin it for our own means. Not to say any other species that reached our level of intellect wouldn't naturally end up doing the same.

    --
    I tend to rant.
  56. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by SCVonSteroids · · Score: 1

    Just stop it.

    When people act like humans are so much different than other animals, it blows my mind.
    Yes we're poisoned from birth with all this "want want want" bullshit. But naturally we are no different than other animals, and instinctively try to do the same. Those who don't, we know would die off within a week of "shit hitting the fan", but to flat out dump on the entire species as you are is just fucking stupid.

    --
    I tend to rant.
  57. I Applaud NASA's Determined Effort by Slicker · · Score: 1

    The money isn't there currently but the fact that they did not let them stop working in that direction is worthy of praise. Be strong and hang in there, NASA. Stay the course and I will certainly write my congressmen about funding.

    On the other hand, why not try open sourcing design work.. I am absolutely sure you will find an extraordinary wealth of interested people offering ideas and assistance exploring them. Most will be unqualified but it will be an excellent learning experience inspiring a new generation of aerospace engineers. Some will be qualified and will do exceptional work at peer review, engineering calculations, secondary materials research, etc. And the enthusiasm at this site will illustrate the support the American people have for this project. Embrace it.

    Matthew

  58. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Who told you this? Tony Robbins? Are you listening to 'Eye of the Tiger' between pudding cups

    Not from the 14-year-old wankers on Slashdot.

  59. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    It does seem like a "convenient reinterpretation of a failed existence" though.

    Only on Slashdot would having a job that pays the bills and a side business that brings in cash flow be considered a failure.

  60. Re: Giraffe are great by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

    You really should sleep more, and not worry about the slashdot trolls as much as you do, granted I sometimes talk shit to you. but I at least let you know its me talking shit. However talking shit is one of my hobby's and I thoroughly enjoy doing it.. I guess you can say that was one of the poor kid activities that kept our brains busy. Either way 6 hours of sleep is not enough sleep if you have to be cognitive during the work day and produce. even if you can squeeze 45-60 extra minutes into that you should try it. And if you feel you cant sleep, try taking hit or two of weed, or an edible an hour before you want to go to sleep. will help a lot. And its legal where you're at fortunately for you.

  61. Re: More alarmist nonsense by nnet · · Score: 1

    yes, its a tv show.

  62. Re:More alarmist nonsense by nnet · · Score: 1

    much the same way orwell predicted? or asimov?

  63. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    do you really enjoy the phrase '14yo wankers' or do you suffer from some kind of obesity-induced autism that compels you to say it as many times as possible

    I was previously using "asshat" as a general description of my critics. But Eli the Computer Guy summed up in a recent video who my real critics are on Slashdot: the 14-year-old wankers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUcFStmtr7k

  64. Spy vs Spy by holophrastic · · Score: 2

    "mammal populations are losing 70 percent of their members because of habitat loss"

    except I'll bet that there are more mammals today than last year. humans count too.
    so it's really just that there is less mammal diversity. that's something else altogether.

    and what of all of the animal species that prefer the new world climate? lowering the temperature, the pollution, and the acidity would set back the jellyfish population by decades.

    So really, this is just an argument of preferring giraffes over jellyfish. So which ones do we eat, which ones clean our dirty oceans, and which ones look prettier?

    Personally, I prefer it a little warmer. My country benefits immensely from global warming -- agriculture, tourism, and land. You in Florida have had your time in the sun. Now it's your turn to have the hostile seasons.

    And what of solar power? Isn't hotter better? Sorry, that's the hole-in-the-ozone thing. I meant greenhouse effect. Isn't that good for plants? And therefore for agriculture? I like food. And hurricanes? Wind power, soon lightning power.

    This planet has many deserts. Between arid-north, snowy south, and sandy middles, plenty of earth is hostile to humans. So isn't this just a shift? If you live at the equator, plan to move north in a generation or two. Florida will become as hot as jamaica. But virginia will become the new florida. And the arctic circle will become the new new york.

    For a group of scientists looking to colonize the moon, and mars, global warming ought not seem so hostile by comparison.

  65. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Take away the slashdot and maybe you're not a failure. But there is definitely something wrong that you keep frequenting this place. Given how long you've been working, you're darn right you are a failure.

    Slashdot exists to keep me amuse while I'm waiting for scripts to finish. Thank you for your participation!

  66. Sad fucking state of affairs by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

    While it is human to worry about things that affect us in the present like net neutrality (I am very very concerned about it myself) and the like, it is too easy to miss the big picture. If the planet loses half its species in the next few decades, we are what you call "completely fucked". I send my donations to anything that will help preserve nature because, well, it eventually affects every other thing with a very long term effect.

  67. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    not worry about the slashdot trolls as much as you do

    I find the 14-year-old wankers to be amusing. That some of them call themselves men and have children is more worrisome.

    Either way 6 hours of sleep is not enough sleep if you have to be cognitive during the work day and produce.

    I've always gotten six hours of sleep. My late father who got up at 5:30AM to go to work for 50 years always slept six hours.

  68. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    You have to get up ridiculously early to get to your shitty job;

    My father got up at 5:30AM to go to work for 50 years. He stopped working six weeks before he died at 75 from terminal throat cancer.

    You get up 2.5 hours before you're expected to arrive at work, because you have to take shitty public transit in the Bay Area, which is expensive and crowded;

    The alternative is to spend 3+ hours driving in traffic. I spend an hour each way taking the express bus, reading The Wall Street Journal in the morning and an ebook on the way home. If you don't arrive at my job by 7:30AM, you won't get a parking spot and street parking sucks.

    You spend your "work" days dicking around on Slashdot;

    While attending three meetings and two training sessions that didn't apply to me at my regular job yesterday, and responding to email notifications from Slashdot while redoing YouTube thumbnails for a client last night.

    and burn hours and days and weeks of your free time for a few dollars;

    I love how everyone lowball the numbers that they know nothing about. We went from half-cents to pennies to dollars over the last three months

    You have to be in bed by 10:30 pm because you have to wake up again to do it all over again the next day.

    I look forward to every new day because that's life.

  69. Headline and article alignment? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

    Era of 'Biological Annihilation' Is Underway

    possible mass extinction of species all over the world may be imminent

    So let me get this straight. It is possible that mass extinction may be imminent (meaning: it is not happening now, and we're not sure it will). Thus we have biological annihilation already underway. Somehow those two don't quite align... Methinks the headline isn't just clickbait, but outright #FakeNews?

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    1. Re:Headline and article alignment? by courteaudotbiz · · Score: 1

      It's not fake news. It's called giving too much air time to a guy that has predicted completely cranky, scatty theories about the end of the world as we know it, yet nothing he has said has come any close to his predictions.

      This story completely discredits the New York Times as a mainstream, supposedly serious media. Aren't these journalists supposed to do some very basic facts checking before publishing such a rubbish paper?

  70. Re: Giraffe are great by Highdude702 · · Score: 1

    Im not saying I don't do the same, but its still not healthy. You and your father may be 100% different though because your mother also had a part in it.

  71. More BS by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    If it is caused by man, then explain why BEFORE man, many species have come and gone. And even if man were NOT here, many species will go. More crap to stir up the government educated lDIOTS that can't think for themselves, but continue to spout 30 second sound bites...because that is all they know.

    1. Re:More BS by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Of course there's species coming and going all the time. The problem we've got now is a lot of species going very rapidly. Lots of things are fine at normal levels but not when vastly accelerated.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  72. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    You and your father may be 100% different though because your mother also had a part in it.

    The older I get the more I become my father. Fortunately, I watched my father get old so I know what to prepare for. As for my late mother, she was an alcoholic, slept all the time and a mean drunk when awake.

  73. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    - Averaging ~ $27 a month in advertising revenues.

    Made $150 in advertising revenues from Slashdot last month. The average for the past quarter was $66.66.

    Selling ~ $60 worth of ebooks per year.

    That's interesting number I don't recognize. Citation, please?

    Working on your "side business" every day, from when you get home, until you go to bed at 10:30 pm.

    Correct.

    Being stuck on a shitty, dead-end treadmill is what you think of as life?

    I'm not the type that comes home, watches TV and drink beers after work. I haven't watched TV in 25 years and it takes me six months to drank a six-pack. I prefer the entrepreneur lifestyle instead.

  74. Re:More alarmist nonsense by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

    Paul Ehrlich is also the person who, when it looked like Pons and Fleishmann were really on to something, and clean, nearly free fusion power was going to be running everything on the planet, wrote an article for the newspapers about how this was a complete disaster. In his words "Like giving a machine gun to a retarded child."

    I have no use for completely anti-human "philosophers" like Ehrlich. He may know a lot about butterflies, but outside his narrow area of expertise, he's a moron.

  75. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    So in 3 months, you made $66. An average of $22 per month.

    Wrong, dumbass. The average was $66.66 per month. Multiply by three months in a quarter that's $200. An extra $200 that requires little effort on my part than posting a few dozen comments on Slashdot every day.

    Even if you're making equivalent rates from all of your claimed 30 revenue streams (and we all know you're not) [...]

    Where I don't provide information, you make up shit to fill in gaps and then lowball the results.

    I leave work, spend time with my wife & kid, do creative projects (woodworking, music, and open source programming), do useful household upkeep, and a hundred other gratifying, rewarding things.

    A lifestyle that I will probably never have. I don't dwell on what I don't have. I deal with what I do have. When God hands out lemons, I make lemonade and people get upset because I don't suck my lemons with salt and tequila like everyone else.

    No, it's quite clear that you prefer being able to claim you're an entrepreneur without having to actually deliver on the actual successful business ventures of BEING an entrepreneur.

    I've been in business for ten years now. People who don't believe they're successful TODAY won't be successful TOMORROW. I don't let doubters and naysayers dictate how I run my business.

  76. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    Life....finds a way. But humans....won't. And that's the point.

    The most adaptable species on the planet, the toolmakers and builders, won't find a way to survive. What absolute malarky.

    Is this Paul posting as an AC?

  77. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    doesn't mean they are a good idea.

    Do you see me saying they are a good idea?

    And I see my stalker got mod points again. You missed a few other postings I made in other threads, or did you run out of points before you could get them all?

  78. Re:I was just discussing this ... by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    The climate change in this one is much, much faster than that of any previous extinctions.

    I saw one of the most asinine bumper stickers this morning on the way to work: "The climate is changing faster than we are."

    Now, I don't know about you, but I can change on a time scale on the order of "weather". Hey, it's hot out, let's go inside where the AC is on. Hey, it's cold out, put on a sweater. I think most people can do that. So if we can change faster than the weather, and the climate is changing faster than we can, then climate change has to be happening faster than the weather. But weather is the day-to-day stuff and "climate" is the long term stuff. So weather changes much faster than the climate. We change faster than the weather.

    The car owner clearly doesn't understand the rules of math.

    But then, I'm positive of that because of the vehicle they drive: a Subaru Forester. It has the label "pzev" on it. I couldn't figure out by looking at it what that meant, but I saw it at the Subaru dealer. "Partial zero emissions vehicle". How can a vehicle be "partial zero"? Either it is zero or it is not. Unless you're saying "the only thing that emits on this car is the engine, and the engine is only a part of the car...", so only a part of the car emits ... but that's just dumb. Every car qualifies for that.

  79. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Do you see any other successful people generating the amount of replies you are?

    Slashdot exists to keep me amuse while I'm waiting for scripts to finish. That I get paid to make two dozen comments per day is a bonus.

    Instead, you let all those ghosts and injuries from your past blind you to your reality.

    Nothing stands in my way. The future is very bright.

  80. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

    Virii has never been correct.

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
  81. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by arth1 · · Score: 1

    "I study viruses."
    "I caught some virus."

    Does some slang (which, where?) truly use:
    "I caught some viruses?"
    Off-hand, I can't recall ever hearing that.

    Possibly because there's little chance of anyone saying "I caught some virus" unless they mean "some virus" as singular?

    But if someone looks at a microscope image, will they say "look at all the virus" or "look at all the viruses"? I fear that most would say the latter these days.

  82. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    If what you say were true, places that have been inhabited by humans would be depopulated wastelands. They aren't. Humans move into an area and stay in some form of dynamic equilibrium.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  83. Re: Giraffe are great by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    So much for the "secret and confidential" sales figures...

    I brandied about the Slashdot advertising revenue for months, as I previously told you when you ;ast complained about my "secret and confidential" sales figures.

  84. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by arth1 · · Score: 1

    (1) If people lacks a singular then what is the plural of person? Sure, you can use persons but I'm going to suggest there's an alternative...

    They are two different words, where one fulfils the lack of a singular for the other. Much like there is no singular for money, and we substitute words that may make sense in the context, like "coin" or "note". That doesn't make one a plural of the other.

    Persons has a different meaning from people, much like coins has a different meaning from money.
    John and Paul may be persons of interest.
    Marxists and cobblers may be people of interest.
    Inuits and Sami may be peoples of interest.

    As for #2, you're right; I erroneously used a boutique word. :)

  85. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Virii was the proper plural of viruses for generations.

    No, it wasn't. Viri (singlie i) exists, but means "men", "Virii" (double i) doesn't exist as a word, and never has. The first incorrect "virii" can be traced back to the 1970s.
    The plural of virus is virus, or viruses/vira is you refer to multiple groups (like "peoples").

  86. Re: Giraffe are great by ls671 · · Score: 1

    You forgot to write who or what you are amusing,,,
    example:
    Slashdot exists to keep me amuse the crowd while I'm waiting for scripts to finish running.

    --
    Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
  87. Lower population. by DrYak · · Score: 1

    A flattening out of the population isn't enough.

    Well depending on what they eat, it could be enough (= if they dont all eat like westerner. otherwise you'll need 1-2 extra planets Earth just to feed everyone).

    We need to get it down to a pre-explosion level and let other "species" reclaim a majority of the areas that we have expanded into in order stop the decline in biodiversity. There's nothing that indicates that that will happen.

    ...soon. There nothing that indicates that that will happen soon.

    On the other hand, there are indicators that that will happen eventually :

    in the developped western world, natality rate is falling under 2, sometime even under 1 (= not every couple have a kid at all).
    The population of several european countries only growse due to immigration. Not to born babies.

    As they progress along their demographic transition, all the countries will eventually lower the number of babies each couple makes.
    And you'll eventually see negative population growth.
    At least if we are still around by then.
    If we've managed to wipe ourselves out by completely destroying the environment (and climate), then it's another story.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  88. Not? by UsuallyReasonable · · Score: 1

    You lost me at "Paul Ehrlich is not an alarmist."

  89. Re:This is a genuine tragedy. by alexo · · Score: 1

    That would have killed the joke.

  90. Re: Giraffe are great by clovis · · Score: 1

    I look forward to every new day because that's life

    That statement alone defines a successful life.

  91. Re:Extinction is a natural occurrence by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    It's going to be a large figure but probably not 99.99% - there's been more species around recently than in any previous historical period.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20