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Alaska's Permafrost Is Thawing (cnbc.com)

Henry Fountain reports via The New York Times (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source): The Arctic is warming about twice as fast as other parts of the planet, and even here in sub-Arctic Alaska the rate of warming is high. Sea ice and wildlife habitat are disappearing; higher sea levels threaten coastal native villages. But to the scientists from Woods Hole Research Center who have come here to study the effects of climate change, the most urgent is the fate of permafrost, the always-frozen ground that underlies much of the state. Starting just a few feet below the surface and extending tens or even hundreds of feet down, it contains vast amounts of carbon in organic matter -- plants that took carbon dioxide from the atmosphere centuries ago, died and froze before they could decompose. Worldwide, permafrost is thought to contain about twice as much carbon as is currently in the atmosphere. Once this ancient organic material thaws, microbes convert some of it to carbon dioxide and methane, which can flow into the atmosphere and cause even more warming. Scientists have estimated that the process of permafrost thawing could contribute as much as 1.7 degrees Fahrenheit to global warming over the next several centuries, independent of what society does to reduce emissions from burning fossil fuels and other activities. In Alaska, nowhere is permafrost more vulnerable than here, 350 miles south of the Arctic Circle, in a vast, largely treeless landscape formed from sediment brought down by two of the state's biggest rivers, the Yukon and the Kuskokwim. Temperatures three feet down into the frozen ground are less than half a degree below freezing. This area could lose much of its permafrost by midcentury.

324 comments

  1. Time to plant trees by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Time to plant trees. Lots of trees.

    --
    If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    1. Re:Time to plant trees by quantaman · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes, and its part of a natural cycle. The polar caps on Mars are also melting, but we seem to be peaking and cycling back into the cold half again for another 11 or 22 or 28 or 88 years. There are several cycles that sometimes harmonize to cause the extremes.

      Solar cycle extremes as a seasonal predictor of Atlantic-Basin tropical cyclones

      FTA:
      Minimum sunspot years and the AMO index can combine to explain more than 54 percent of the variations in total tropical cyclones and nearly 46 percent of the variation in tropical cyclone days. Solar cycle extremes should be considered for more accurate seasonal tropical cyclone predictions.

      So what does that have to do with the permafrost melting, or even global warming more generally?

      Did you just find a peer reviewed article talking about sunspots and figured no one would realize it didn't support your argument?

      --
      I stole this Sig
    2. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to deploy the tree planting drone fleet.

    3. Re:Time to plant trees by MightyMartian · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It has nothing to do with anything. It's just a string of sentences strung together, because pseudo-skeptics need to have some sort of response, no matter how idiotic or false the claim.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      #TexasSecessionButNotUntilAfterTheHurricane
      #SmallGovermentExceptForWelfareToRedStates

    5. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2

      You could cover the entire planet surface with trees and it still wouldn't be enough. It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    6. Re:Time to plant trees by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Informative

      You could cover the entire planet surface with trees and it still wouldn't be enough. It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      Okay. But until we have such machines, the most readily available carbon-sink, cost-effective and easily deployed with unskilled labour, is the tree.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    7. Re:Time to plant trees by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      PI IS EXACTLY THREE!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    8. Re:Time to plant trees by philmarcracken · · Score: 1

      Humans can't eat trees. We need arable land to farm on. They also decompose so you need to keep planting them year on year.

      It's like us humans are in a boat on the sea, and we have a bit of rain every now and then in the boat, but it evaporates. So we decided to hook up a bunch of industrial pumps to the side and just shit in water from the ocean. And every time I read about trees, its a tiny ass bucket scooping a pitiful amount of water out of this boat. Meanwhile their get in their ice cars and heat their homes using a fuckload of coal power while voting against nuclear.

    9. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it is a little bit more than that: 22/7, or 440/140 if you want to be more precise.

    10. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intensive farming with hydroponics had been around for many years and yet is still seen more like something school kids do in a science fair.

    11. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But but but my city banned plastic bags and now we're all using paper bags again. Aww jimmeny cricket!!1

    12. Re:Time to plant trees by Jeremi · · Score: 2

      It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      Cool, but then you have to figure out how to power those machines. Presumably you'd need to use renewable (or at least nuclear) power for them, since otherwise they'd be putting more CO2 into the air, likely at a faster rate than they were taking it out of the air. How much power would such a machine require to remove a given amount of CO2? Are we currently capable of creating a CO2-removing machine that is more power-efficient than a tree? I have my doubts about that.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    13. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      +5 Suffers fools!

    14. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trust Republicans, you don't need to breathe.

    15. Re: Time to plant trees by FunkSoulBrother · · Score: 1

      You're supposed to use the re-usable cloth bags

    16. Re:Time to plant trees by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 0

      Okay. But until we have such machines, the most readily available carbon-sink, cost-effective and easily deployed with unskilled labour, is the tree.

      Hmmm . . . that gives me an idea . . . can we somehow breed genetically modified humans that work as carbon sinks . . . ?

      Like, you inhale carbon, but don't exhale it . . . ? And the body converts the carbon into non-biodegradable forms, so it doesn't escape again when you die? Maybe the carbon-breathing humans can then excrete the carbon in a solid pellet form . . . ?

      Building and maintaining all those carbon sequestering machines sounds like huge effort . . . let's just change humans, instead!

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    17. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3

      Cool, but then you have to figure out how to power those machines.

      Solar and wind. This isn't rocket science.

      Are we currently capable of creating a CO2-removing machine that is more power-efficient than a tree?

      Trees don't permanently remove CO2 from the atmosphere. If they did then there wouldn't be any CO2 for them. Also, please don't argue that animals are supplying the CO2 they need because animal-life is a recent development compared to plant-life.

      What we have done is removed a fuckload of buried carbon and propelled it into the atmosphere. If we wanted to involve trees, it would be planting a huge amount of trees, uprooting them at their prime and then burying them deep underground. The better option is to use machines to capture CO2 and then use chemistry to split it into carbon and oxygen. We can make various things with these but the most space efficient would be to make diamonds and release the oxygen. Considering we've released over a trillion tons of CO2 in the atmosphere, space should be a consideration.

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    18. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one tell this guy about the whole "clean water" problem.

    19. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3

      But until we have such machines...

      Actually, we have already invented the machines we need to capture CO2. We have the machines we need, we just need to build them.

      --
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    20. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been using them for two decades. They also don't break open as easily, so are superior.

    21. Re:Time to plant trees by Mal-2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, we have already invented the machines we need to capture CO2. We have the machines we need, we just need to build them.

      And power them. That's going to remain a sticking point unless and until we have fusion.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    22. Re:Time to plant trees by Barsteward · · Score: 3

      Here is a possibility as a start https://www.fastcompany.com/40...

      --
      "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray." - Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899)
    23. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And power them. That's going to remain a sticking point unless and until we have fusion.

      We have plenty of power from the sun and the wind, dummy. Worst case scenario, we power them with nuclear.

      --
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    24. Re:Time to plant trees by Mal-2 · · Score: 1, Troll

      If we have plenty of solar and wind energy, then why are we still burning fossil fuels and amplifying the problem in the first place?

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    25. Re:Time to plant trees by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      A better first step would be to turn off the machines that actively add carbon to the air.

    26. Re:Time to plant trees by rrohbeck · · Score: 0

      We mill have neither. Those machines are way too expensive and need lots of energy. And we're deforesting, not planting trees.

    27. Re:Time to plant trees by Solandri · · Score: 0

      Because solar and wind are very disperse, dilute energy sources, and collecting them itself takes a lot of energy, materials, and effort. Fossil fuels (and geothermal where available) and especially nuclear are very concentrated energy sources, and thus much easier and more efficient ways to generate large quantities of energy on-demand.

      Just because the environmental movement chooses to pretend this aspect of energy generation doesn't exist doesn't mean it isn't a factor. It's like when I discovered the house I was renting had blackberry bushes outside. "Great!" I thought, "Free blackberries!" And when the blackberries ripened I went outside to pick them. An hour later I had a small bowl of blackberries, but I still had to wash them and my fingers were sore from numerous thorn pricks. The next day I just went to the store and bought a box of blackberries for a couple dollars. It was a much more efficient use of my time and resources to get the same end product.

    28. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Because coal jobs. Here in Switzerland power is pretty much 0% fossil fuels and the huge public transportation system is mostly electric.

    29. Re:Time to plant trees by amiga3D · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's time to start preparing for the inevitable warming of the planet. We've got some time but I'd start by banning any new construction in Florida and other low lying areas. Even by the most optimistic view the Paris Accords aren't going to do much, if any, good. It'll keep warming gradually for decades.

    30. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Okay. But until we have such machines, the most readily available carbon-sink, cost-effective and easily deployed with unskilled labour, is the tree.

      That depends on where it's going. If the area is very dry, it won't support trees. You have to work your way up from scrub, kudzu, something hardy like that. If it is moist, bamboo is better. It grows biomass faster than trees, and there are several varieties useful as building materials. Cutting the bamboo down and building stuff out of it means carbon sequestration, just like trees except faster.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    31. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's like turning off the life support before the patient can breathe on their own.

      Also, YOU are a machine that actively adds carbon into the air. So turn yourself off first.

    32. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cutting the bamboo down and building stuff out of it means carbon sequestration, just like trees except faster.

      True. And burning Biomass is a release of sequestered carbon. While it is a renewable source, it is also a carbon emitting source, which is why we should not celebrate its expansion as we do emission free sources. CO2 from biomass stays in air just as long and has the same effect as CO2 from fossil.

    33. Re:Time to plant trees by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      You mean the machines also known as "trees"?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    34. Re:Time to plant trees by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Such a device could plausibly use solar heat. Build it in Nevada or something. There's more than enough desert there.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    35. Re:Time to plant trees by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      We can make various things with these but the most space efficient would be to make diamonds and release the oxygen.

      ...what? We have the ability to make gigatonnes of diamonds every year? Why has nobody told me?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    36. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Show me the code!

    37. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unfortunately humans have already modified in to an anti carbon sink - its called a fucking obese american evangelical.

    38. Re: Time to plant trees by fortfive · · Score: 1

      Op probably meant biomass in its most technical sense: mass of biological material, as opposed to the vernacular sense of biomass conversion fuel.

    39. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Worst case scenario, we power them with nuclear.

      That pretty much is the worst case. It also makes zero sense because wind is cheaper.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    40. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's like when I discovered the house I was renting had blackberry bushes outside. "Great!" I thought, "Free blackberries!" And when the blackberries ripened I went outside to pick them. An hour later I had a small bowl of blackberries, but I still had to wash them and my fingers were sore from numerous thorn pricks. The next day I just went to the store and bought a box of blackberries for a couple dollars. It was a much more efficient use of my time and resources to get the same end product.

      When I was a kid living in Aptos, I used to go with my mother to pick blackberries along the railroad tracks. We'd get backpacks full of berries for a couple hours' work tops. Later, we moved to Capitola, and we used to pick berries in a big open field on 41st Ave, out behind the KFC. Again, backpacks full. Even at the time a small container of ripe berries was regularly $2; today it's typically around $5. Then we'd take them home and make cobblers out of them. We couldn't actually afford to go out and eat cobbler in restaurants, but we could afford to go pick fifty to a hundred dollars' worth of berries.

      Maybe you're a shitty berry-picker, maybe your berry patch isn't very good, or maybe your story is just bullshit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    41. Re:Time to plant trees by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Also, YOU are a machine that actively adds carbon into the air. So turn yourself off first.

      No, I need to be around to say "I told you so".

    42. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Trees don't permanently remove CO2 from the atmosphere. If they did then there wouldn't be any CO2 for them.

      A portion of the carbon that trees remove from the atmosphere is sequestered. That's a simple fact. Even in the rain forest, that's true. However, it's most true in evergreen forests, because the rate of falls determines (in part) whether decomposition is aerobic or not, and aerobic decomposition releases less of the stored carbon, returning more of it to the soil.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    43. Re:Time to plant trees by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      There is so much wasted space pointing upward, that could be used for solar energy collection or improved tree growth.

      Cities have many square miles of ugly black tar roofs that could be collecting solar energy. They are fields that are laying fallow that could be reforested.

      These are not things that are impossible for even modest governments, but we are lacking global leadership who is willing to say they will fund these projects and attack the problem on many angles.

      Do you want to get Republicans involved. Well stop calling them uneducated hicks, start explaining how solar energy is a good way to be independent of these government controlled power plants and where you are responsible for your own energy. Business can be shown how this can lower costs over a longer time. Religious people just explain that solar energy from they sky is from God, while oil and coal is from the ground closer to hell. Have policies where you can sell back your power to the grid if you want too, or just disconnect from it completely. Avoid sob stories such as polar bears, when being told that their views are wrong for both liberal and conservatives they are not going to go, oh gee I have been a dufus all my life, Ill change. They are going to dig deeper and protect their stance and beliefs.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    44. Re: Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Correct. The word for that is "feedstock", not "biomass", although there are processes for which any biomass is a viable feedstock. The ABE process springs to mind as being relevant here.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    45. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      44000/14006 is closer

    46. Re:Time to plant trees by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      You mean the machines also known as "trees"?

      Trees are great things to have around the place. I'll always support planting them, and enjoy them. But at best, they are carbon neutral. Any carbon they might pull from the atmosphere is temporarily stored, then released back to the atmosphere after they die and decay. We might think of the standard rotting process as extreme slow burning, and some of the more wet decays as methane production.

      Probably the best approach is to attempt to slow releasing of sequestered carbon from ages past, and call it a lesson learned as we deal with what is happening.

      Because you just never know what will happen. If we were to go on a global jag to sequester carbon dioxide - and don't forget methane - if the sun goes on one of it's periodic turndowns, or more likely we enter a period of high volcanic activity, we could inadvertently create problems on the cold side of average global temperature. Carbon dioxide, as the longest lived of the so-called greenhouse gases, is actually a critical component of our atmosphere, and we should trifle with it as little as possible.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    47. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alright, all you active volcanoes, stop that right now!

    48. Re:Time to plant trees by aardvarkjoe · · Score: 1

      But at best, they are carbon neutral. Any carbon they might pull from the atmosphere is temporarily stored, then released back to the atmosphere after they die and decay.

      Not if you take measures to prevent their decay after they die.

      After all, that's how all this carbon got into the ground in the first place, so it's obviously not impossible.

      --

      How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
    49. Re:Time to plant trees by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Do you want to get Republicans involved. Well stop calling them uneducated hicks, start explaining how solar energy is a good way to be independent of these government controlled power plants and where you are responsible for your own energy.

      I love how you make this attempt to say that non-republicans are causing republicans to rebel because non-republicans are so mean.

      That is like arguing that you can get someone to kill themselves by telling them they are stupid, and that gravity is real, so they say No it isn't, and then jump off a cliff because you contradicted them.

      You are going to have to explain why an apparent fatal flaw is a good thing, because your concept is a perfect way to take advantage of people. Regardless I've been called a lot of names by deniers and others - so what? I've never driven off a cliff just to show them they are wrong.

      No, there are three things causing denialism.

      First is that there is the fact that a number of our politicians are receiving a goodly amount of money from the groups who's activities are releasing sequestered CO2. They then do these contributor's bidding. With enough politicians owned by the groups, it forms a pretty powerful voting bloc.

      Second, this is a long term thing, performed by the fizzy stuff in my Pepsi. How can that work? It's hard to convince people that an invisible gas is causing problems, especially when they can be reassured by a politician bringing a snowball to the podium to make a speech that the snowball's existence disproves the greenhouse effect.

      Third, as my conservative friends who are slowly coming around to the idea that yes, it is real, and yes we are involved - living in the Northeast of the US - they like that it is warmer, and that we don't have as much snow, and that those 70 degree days in February are really nice. They don't care about ocean levels, they don't live at the beach. Same with all the other effects. So many people just don't care what is happening outside of their personal area.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    50. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Op probably meant biomass in its most technical sense: mass of biological material, as opposed to the vernacular sense of biomass conversion fuel.

      OP was just discussing carbon sequestration within biomass. Burning biomass, considered a renewable energy technology, releases sequestered carbon. I was making a related, but tangential comment.

    51. Re:Time to plant trees by hey! · · Score: 1

      Well, there actually are other geoengineering possibilities. One proposal is fertilizing the Antarctic Oceans with iron to generate massive algal blooms. The problem with that is that it has *other* consequences, like destroying the ecosystem in the part of the ocean where you do it. But the big advantage is that it's cheap, and it'd probably work, at the costs of turning large swathes of the oceans into toxic muck.

      While planting an individual tree isn't expensive, planting enough trees to offset human carbon emissions is not. It's a matter of marginal costs; at some point the marginal cost of removing the next ton of carbon with a tree is less than the marginal cost of eliminating a ton of human emissions. Planting forests is probably on the list of things we'll need to do, but at some point you've got to start making dumping carbon in the air more expensive, if you want the most cost effective response.

      And that's the problem; a cost effective, conservative response is going to be relatively complex, and it runs afoul of our dysfunctional political system. I think it highly likely we'll reach the precipice of an economic catastrophe and do something cheap, radical, and almost as catastrophic, like fertilizing marine algal blooms.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    52. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey liberal companies. Yeah you , with billions in the bank. Why isn't SF or San Jose blanketed with solar ? (Or somewhere more practical with SV money ?

      Oh you have to wait for trump for some reason ?

    53. Re:Time to plant trees by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      But at best, they are carbon neutral. Any carbon they might pull from the atmosphere is temporarily stored, then released back to the atmosphere after they die and decay.

      Make biochar. You 1) sequester carbon and 2) improve agriculture. It's a win-win.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    54. Re:Time to plant trees by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      Trees don't permanently remove CO2 from the atmosphere. .

      Depends what happens to the leaves when they fall and the wood when the tree dies. If if gets locked up in peat bogs or permafrost (or eventually oil or coal) you are fine. If it burns or decays, not so good. I haven't done the sums, but I suspect growing plants (I can quite believe that bamboo or something is better than trees) harvesting them and dumping them into old oil wells or coal mines, or somewhere else where they won't decay for a few millenia (what happens to woodchip in deep ocean sediment (assuming it's weighted down) does anyone know?) is more efficient than any current carbon extracting machinery we know about. Also the solar energy used to power the plants is not going directly into heat as it does when it hits desert or tarmac.

    55. Re:Time to plant trees by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      355/113 gets you within 1 PPM.

      --
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    56. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to grow pine & cabbage ... and howbouts an SJW burial ground. They wouldn't last long with all those trees agrown, but what else to do with them ? Don't wanna pollute any vampire diggs .. eh ??

    57. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why yes, you just pick a nuclear fuel rod from the nuclear fuel rod tree, insert it into a nuclear power plant and get your energy. Coal is almost as easy: On your way to the power plant, you collect coal that's lying about, grind it into a fine powder and put it into the coal fired power plant. Just compare those to solar and wind, where you have to make intense light and move lots of air in many different places - completely infeasible!

    58. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to plant trees. Lots of trees.

      No, it's time for me to continue not giving a shit about your religion.

    59. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Debeers. It's a conspiracy. ;-)

    60. Re:Time to plant trees by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Well, until we have fission, at any rate. If you're anti-fission now, what makes you think you'll be pro-fusion when it is possible? You'll just have some other thing that we need to shoot for that conveniently lets fossil fuel companies keep operating "in the meantime" as always.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    61. Re:Time to plant trees by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I'd start by just not providing government-funded flood insurnace in coastal areas known to have a high risk of flooding. If you want to build there, fine, but you insure your own shit or live with the cost of losing your property in the next big storm. We shouldn't have been subsidizing stupid real estate decisions like that all along.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    62. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      rhode island could maybe use that model.

    63. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And we see the underlying motivation for alarmists...to be right, to be morally right, to say I told you so. Confirmation bias writ large. Many phd thesis will be written about this in the future, attempting to understand why so many people lost their voices yelling the sky is falling.

    64. Re:Time to plant trees by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      We're using our fission power. Even if it's scaled up as rapidly as can be done with reasonable safety margins, demand will expand to use it all -- not that this is a bad thing, as many problems (like fossil fueled vehicles, and the shortage of fresh water) can be solved. I'm definitely not anti-fission and don't see why you think I would be. It's just that the sheer quantity of power available from fusion will mean no longer having to choose which power-intensive needs top the list: making fertilizer for farming, desalinating water, powering more industry, aiming lasers at solar sails to accelerate them toward the next star... there would be enough for all of these things and then some. Right now there isn't, and you can be sure that CO2 sequestration won't be near the top of the list when there are things that need to be done right fucking now with any increased capacity. (Not that I necessarily agree with the ranking of needs, but I'm pretty certain immediate ones will get served first in reality.)

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    65. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      You mean the machines also known as "trees"?

      No.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    66. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only the appiest of all appy apps can stop all global warming, not Luddite natural trees planted by unskilled laborers.

    67. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      A better first step would be to turn off the machines that actively add carbon to the air.

      That would be ideal but we have to work within government capabilities without authoritarian rule. The better first step would be to add a pollution tax. It would be onerous enough that non-polluting solutions would become the more desirable solutions from a financial standpoint. The taxes should be used to help clean up the pollution and subsidize solutions for the poor (because they cannot afford the initial investment needed).

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    68. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      If we have plenty of solar and wind energy, then why are we still burning fossil fuels and amplifying the problem in the first place?

      Because we aren't taxing polluters to clean up their pollution. Change that and everyone will be switching power sources ASAP.

      --
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    69. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      I haven't done the sums, but I suspect growing plants...

      Do the sums. Your argument is specious.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    70. Re:Time to plant trees by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Fossil fuels..and especially nuclear are very concentrated energy sources

      False. Uranium does not naturally exist in a concentrated form, and likewise petroleum is getting more and more difficult to find, extract, and refine. Nuclear and fossil fuel advocates choose to pretend this aspect of energy generation doesn't exist.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    71. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this has to be one of the most correct post I've ever read on here. You nailed it. A lot of people really do not care if someone half way across the world is having issues because I drive a car. It's the honest truth. It's really hard to ask people to provide you money for something that is nearly impossible to show the value of. This is why people get so resentful with higher and higher government taxes.

      I try to do my part for the environment. Small things. I use my own shopping bags. I carry my own water bottle. I drive a civic and hopefully electric will become a truly viable alternative by the time my civic stops doing it's job. I rarely wash my car and when I do it is at the car wash (live in southwest, water is always scarce).

      Eventually I'd love to move into a small house with enough land to invest in a solar panel setup and water well, along with water treatment for the water. Toss in my electric car along with the garden patch and crops I'll plant and I know I'll be feeling pretty good.

    72. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is when you are comparing costs of energy, the concentration of fossil/nuclear fuels is baked into the commodity price. So you can effectively handwave the concentrate part.

    73. Re:Time to plant trees by blindseer · · Score: 1

      If wind was cheaper then we should be able to do without wind subsidies. Every time the possibility of removing those subsidies is mentioned though the tree huggers scream. Wind power as it is now cannot survive without subsidies, subsidies from a coal and nuclear powered economy.

      Smart grids and batteries won't save wind power either because they both cost money, add those and wind power isn't so cheap any more.

      Oh, and nuclear has a smaller carbon footprint than wind power too. If the goal is to get cheap, carbon free (as "free" of carbon as wind anyway), reliable, and safe energy then nuclear is at the top of the list.

      I'll believe the politicians are serious about a carbon free economy when I see a new nuclear power plant built in every state. Until then it's just a bunch of hot air.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    74. Re:Time to plant trees by blindseer · · Score: 1

      "The better first step would be to add a pollution tax."

      We have those, they are called "taxes". Everything we do produces "pollution" (if we include CO2 as pollution) and everything is taxed. Do you mean just raising tax rates?

      " The taxes should be used to help clean up the pollution and subsidize solutions for the poor (because they cannot afford the initial investment needed)."

      We have those too. Lots of subsidies for lights, insulation, fuel efficient cars, and on and on.

      At some point we need to recognize the diminishing returns on doing more. We've already done a lot so far, at some point we need to stop doing more and go into a "maintenance mode" and just keep what we got with minor tweaks here and there as economic, technological, and other factors change. I think we met that point of diminishing returns a long time ago.

      That is we hit a wall of diminishing returns if we keep this NIMBY attitude on nuclear power. We could go a long way yet with nuclear power. Barring that though we've pretty much hit a wall.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    75. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2

      "The better first step would be to add a pollution tax."

      We have those, they are called "taxes". Everything we do produces "pollution" (if we include CO2 as pollution) and everything is taxed. Do you mean just raising tax rates?

      We do not tax specifically for the volume of pollution something creates. That's what should be taxed. The tax also needs to be high enough to cover the cost of cleaning up the pollution.

      At some point we need to recognize the diminishing returns on doing more.

      When we reach the point where we're removing more CO2 from the atmosphere than we're putting out, that's when we can "go into maintenance mode".

      That is we hit a wall of diminishing returns if we keep this NIMBY attitude on nuclear power.

      Currently, nuclear power isn't very cost effective and it's very centralized which makes it a vulnerability. Distributed solar power is a better idea and reduces the amount of infrastructure that needs to be maintained. It won't work everywhere but insisting on perfection prevents improvement. It would be nice if the government would fund research into next gen reactors which don't have an abundance of fissile material and thus are incapable of a meltdown but those don't make weapons, so they will not fund it. It's best we do what we can to improve the situation instead of waiting for silver bullet solutions.

      We could go a long way yet with nuclear power. Barring that though we've pretty much hit a wall.

      We're not even close to hitting a wall. The wall isn't even in sight.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    76. Re:Time to plant trees by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, it's not exactly coherent reasoning, but there is an orbital oscillation that is having a minor effect. (I'm not sure sun spots have anything to do with this, though, and the orbit of Mars doesn't shift it's oscillation in parallel with Earth, so the argument fails even though it's talking about a real, if minor, effect.)

      Check out http://www.indiana.edu/~geol10... . But also note that I have no idea where we are in the cycle...except that based solely on that cycle we should have been re-entering an ice age during the last century. So some other effect is swamping it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    77. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 2

      If wind was cheaper then we should be able to do without wind subsidies. Every time the possibility of removing those subsidies is mentioned though the tree huggers scream. Wind power as it is now cannot survive without subsidies, subsidies from a coal and nuclear powered economy.

      Just add a tax based on the amount money needed to clean up the pollution from each energy source. Wind will thrive because energy from fossil fuel would actually cost companies money. When we do that, we can strip all subsidies from the energy sector.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    78. Re:Time to plant trees by dryeo · · Score: 1

      Not just coastal areas. There are rivers that seem to be experiencing once in a hundred year floods every decade and every time the government bails out the people living in the flood zones.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    79. Re:Time to plant trees by HiThere · · Score: 1

      It may be the best argument, but it's not a good one. A better one is that people are really short-sighted, and unreasonably discount future costs. And even better argument is that the decision makers won't be the ones hurt. And an even better argument is that the decision makers won't be hurt as much, and so they'll be relatively better off.

      I seem to be a bit of a cynic.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    80. Re:Time to plant trees by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Planting trees is good, especially if you then bury them under anaerobic conditions where they won't be exposed for millennia. Second best is to really fireproof them and then use them in construction. Third best is convert them to acid neutralized paper and use them to print libraries. (Books don't last as long as buildings, and buildings don't last as long as well buried stuff...which will turn into coal.)

      The thing is, you've got to remove the carbon from the cycle. And one generation of trees won't come near to sufficing for what's needed.

      Do note, however, that the process we're discussion will take multiple centuries...and probably a large multiple. In the mean time things are likely to get a bit warm, and possibly dry. (Check out the current fires in British Columbia.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    81. Re:Time to plant trees by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      That would be ideal but we have to work within government capabilities without authoritarian rule

      Government rules from authority, so that's not a problem. You need the same rule to install your CO2-removal machines, except they would be much less efficient, so you need a lot more power.

    82. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the subsidies and externalized costs aren't. And yet, despite having much less development time, solar and wind are already getting close to the per-kWh price of nuclear and fossil fuels.

    83. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Also, YOU are a machine that actively adds carbon into the air. So turn yourself off first.

      No, we absorb as much as we emit - we're made of the stuff, remember? Adding carbon requires digging it up from underground and putting it in the sky. Anything already living on the surface is carbon neutral.

    84. Re:Time to plant trees by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      But at best, they are carbon neutral. Any carbon they might pull from the atmosphere is temporarily stored, then released back to the atmosphere after they die and decay.

      Not if you take measures to prevent their decay after they die.

      After all, that's how all this carbon got into the ground in the first place, so it's obviously not impossible.

      The great sequestration that took place in the carboniferous will almost certainly never happen again, as towards it's end Fungi emerged that could break down the lignin in the wood. So yeah, we would have to create vaults that would seal the wood off from the atmosphere, and keep it sealed off.

      The scale of the project would be mind boggling. It would also be zany and ridiculous enough to have been part of a Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy chapter.

      We grow trees to capture carbon then chop them down and place them in sealed vaults in order for us to put more carbon into the air from carbon that we dig out of the ground that was there already, and re-release the old carbon, then have to grow new carbon to put in the ground, forever.

      Sounds legit.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    85. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time for the worlds billionaires to step up and use their money for something useful rather than buying this years super car and super yacht collection. Psssst: I dont think these guys read /. stop posting shit about the planet melting to people that cant really do much about it ;-)

    86. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. And burning Biomass is a release of sequestered carbon.

      But it's carbon neutral if you grow replacement biomass. It's a cycle, you burn it and put the CO2 into the air, and you grow new biomass that sucks it out of the air. Technically, burning fossil fuels is a cycle too, but the actual cycle time is longer than humans have existed, whereas the cycle when burning biomass is effectively in real time. It also releases a lot less additional pollutants than, for example, coal.

    87. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      You need the same rule to install your CO2-removal machines, except they would be much less efficient, so you need a lot more power.

      You seem awfully sure about that. https://www.fastcompany.com/40...

      “One CO2 collector has the same footprint as a tree,” says Wurzbacher. “It takes 50 tons of CO2 out of the air every year. A corresponding tree would take 50 kilograms of the air every year. It’s a factor of a thousand. So in order to achieve the same, you would need 1,000 times less area than you would require for plants growing.” The CO2 collectors can also be used in areas that wouldn’t be suitable for agriculture, helping preserve land needed for farming, and they don’t require a water source, unlike some afforestation efforts. They can also run on renewable energy.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    88. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SF recently started requiring all new construction to have solar. Apple's new headquarters (technically in Cupertino, next to San Jose) is 100% solar powered. Are you living under a rock?

    89. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Humans can't eat trees. We need arable land to farm on

      Well, I quite like hearts of palm. I also like maple syrup/sugar/butter, apples, pears, cherries, peaches, nectarines, coconuts, olives, dates, almonds, oranges, figs, apricots, avocados, bananas, lemons, pecans, limes, cashews, mangos, pistachios, plums, walnuts, cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, persimmons, chocolate, pomegranates, brazil nuts, starfruit, chestnuts, pine nuts, sago, bay leaves, sassafras (I have had root beer made from real sassafras and it's quite good, but I've limited myself because it's carcinogenic), durians, guavas, Jackfruit, Lychees, Tamarillos, Tamarinds, Macadamia nuts,...
      Also, Breadfruit, grapefruit, papayas are ok, although they're not my favorite. I've never actually tried kola nuts, betel nuts, gabon nuts, or gingko nuts, and there are many more that come from trees that aren't typically sold in my local supermarket.

               

    90. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean reverse the energy transaction that we already made burning them? That seems feasible...

    91. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking millions of years worth of compressed plant matter. You could cover the entire planet with trees and you would still get a massive spike in atmospheric carbon simply because it will take millions of years of absorption and sequestration to recapture the carbon so released.

      Look: basically what it boils down to is that we've screwed the pooch. It's over. The horse has bolted. The oh-so-brief window we had to deal with the problem was wasted on cognitive dissonance and arguments about economics and geopolitics. Now welcome to interesting times.

    92. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People, politics and economics. As with many things the engineering side of the equation is fairly straightforward (and fun too). The really, really hard and unpleasant part is people: getting their attention, motivating them, shifting them out of their narrow routines and biases, stopping them being derailed by their own irrationality, keeping the attention of politicians... that's hard, thankless work.

    93. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because people that stupid and shortsighted are also going to cleanup the mess they leave behind.

      No cost to us there. /s

    94. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh ffs... both plastic bags and paper bags are made of carbon. The difference is that the plastic comes from carbon sequestered deep in the earth for millions of years (oil) whereas paper comes from relatively recently sequestered carbon (trees). And you know what? If you replace trees at the same rate you cut them down (plantation style) the whole shebang is carbon neutral (or better than as at least some of the wood gets used in construction, which is a form of sequestration on human time-scales).

      Or you could use a reusable (hessian, not plastic) shopping bag. Those things last for decades if you treat then well - I know because I still use bags from a particular chain that changed it's name over 10 years ago.

    95. Re: Time to plant trees by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Are you sure you weren't stealing them from a farm?

      Wild berry bushes are very lean and the story matches my experience. They're a lot sweeter and firmer wild than farm grown bushes, but you won't get hundreds of dollars worth, at best you'll get a cup per bush and there is no rows of them, you have a single bush amongst all sorts of other things.

      Farm berry bushes have less or no thorns and the berries are bigger and the bushes are close together.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    96. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cutting the bamboo down and building stuff out of it means carbon sequestration, just like trees except faster.

      True. And burning Biomass is a release of sequestered carbon. While it is a renewable source, it is also a carbon emitting source, which is why we should not celebrate its expansion as we do emission free sources. CO2 from biomass stays in air just as long and has the same effect as CO2 from fossil.

      Umm... BUILDING is not the same as burning. Nice strawman attempt.

    97. Re:Time to plant trees by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

      Where and how are you going to store that carbon?

    98. Re: Time to plant trees by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      Wolverine's Adamantium skeleton is carbon. Our bodies are very slowly replacing the calcium in our bones and replacing it with retractable carbon. The calcium then goes to the nervous system.

    99. Re: Time to plant trees by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      We love having as much energy as possible and those fossils aren't going to burn themselves.

    100. Re: Time to plant trees by dougdonovan · · Score: 1

      agreed. plant trees after each forest fire. when your gas tank gets to 1/4 full...fill it up but for some reason...$...the trees dont get replaced but i know you have a full tank.

    101. Re:Time to plant trees by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      I am ok with the government bulldozing the site afterward to make sure it is not a hazard*. The thing that is odious is the expectation that the government (i.e. everyone who couldn't afford a waterfront house but who nevertheless must pay taxes anyway) will make the owner whole since flood insurance companies won't take the risk, or will but for very high premiums.

      * If the property is turned over to the government to be used as open space and a buffer. If the owner wants to keep the property, they can pay for the cleanup.

      hint: if flood insurance companies won't take the risk or flood insurance costs "too much" maybe you shouldn't build there.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    102. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Nuclear would not even be a figment of your imagination without subsidies. The development, construction, insurance, operation, decommissioning and cleanup of a nuclear plant are all always state-subsidized.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    103. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      There are an infinite number of things you can do carbon but the lame option is simply to put it back in the places from which we extracted it. More fun options are making diamonds and carbon nanotubes. If we had the technology, there is enough carbon to make a space elevator. ;)

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    104. Re: Time to plant trees by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      At one rented house I occupied as a teen, there were bushes along the entire fence line between us and the neighbor directly to the south which produced plenty of berries for both households. I would pick enough to half-fill the extra freezer in the garage in between sessions of making pies and jam. Even during the winter they'd go through a bloom and fruit cycle. They had lots of thorns, as you say, but the insects and spiders were a better reason to wear gloves. That, and not wanting purple fingers at the end.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    105. Re:Time to plant trees by manu0601 · · Score: 1

      simply to put [carbon] back in the places from which we extracted it

      You realize this means giving back the energy we obtained from carbon extraction, right?

    106. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have picked truly wild blackberries for many summers. Some patches are dry lean with small berries and very spotty, but in good years and good patches the berries can be incredibly dense and very easy to pick. I have picked many gallons in good years. The biggest wild berries ARE smaller than commercial berries and also are at least somewhat less dense, but to say it is impossible to pick more than a cup full is just wrong.

    107. Re:Time to plant trees by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I remember when Katrina destroyed much of New Orleans how stupid I thought it was to rebuild those flooded areas. I thought, why not offer those ppl who lost homes new homes above sea level instead of in a swamp? Nope, they rebuilt in the same fucked up place. Idiots. They should have moved everyone out and gave it back to Lake Pontchartrain.

    108. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not exactly the kind of thing one would want to sensibly do considering that the ocean currents would take the toxic muck to all corners of the oceans. When one realizes that humanity derives 50% of all its protein from the oceans the entire idea is little more than ignorant madness.

    109. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      You're putting it back in a hole in the ground. What were you expecting, magic?

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    110. Re:Time to plant trees by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Billions of solar powered self replicating machines like ... trees?

    111. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      No, these are 1000x more effective than trees at absorbing CO2 and unlike trees, they don't release it back into the atmosphere.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    112. Re:Time to plant trees by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Why bother.
      Astronomers are saying that in roughly 2,500 years, a large set of space crap, some as big as the moon will be passing by and hitting earth. The consensus from these individuals is that the life on the earth will be wiped out.

      So why worry about global warming. Genius POTUS has said it's bullshit.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    113. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes trees powered by the sun.

    114. Re: Time to plant trees by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Exactly the right answer, and the only answer we need.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    115. Re: Time to plant trees by VirtualJWN · · Score: 0

      Yeah, same thing the dinosaurs did! Martians too!

      --
      "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
    116. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And people worry about out-of-control AI...

      Imagine out of control machines sucking all the carbon out of the atmosphere. How long before all the plants die and the world freezes over again?

      Look at the deep geologic history of the Earth, and you'll see that too little CO2 is far, far worse than too much.

      Jeez, you geoengineering folks scare the crap out of me. Yes, GW is real. Yes, it's being caused primarily by human activity. Yes, it will cause a lot of changes in the world. But no, the world is not about to burst into flames, in spite of inflammatory New Yorker articles to the contrary.

      Face the music. We cannot stop GW from happening. Just do the math on the energy equation. How many of you are willing to give up your air conditioners, your industrial food supply, hell, half your creature comforts (way more than that in America.) You want to stop global warming, see how close to an 18th century lifestyle you can get. That's what it will take, short of some kind of technological miracle. But like I said, let's not be shortsighted or have a knee-jerk reaction or the solution will be far, far worse than the problem.

      Let's stop all this hand-wringing and bickering and look at plain and simple facts. We need to start planning for a new future. Some parts of the world will become uninhabitable. But others will become habitable for the first time in millions of years. Climate zones for farming will shift-- are shifting. Coastlines will shift. According to what happened in the PETM, life on land will prosper while life in the oceans will suffer catastrophically. That mass extinction event going on right now is not because of GW. It's because of loss of habitat due to agriculture. Seriously, look at a satellite view of Nebraska, or France, or China. zoom in, zoom out, repeat elsewhere and keep going. Compare how much farmland there is to how much forest there is. What are we going to do? Starve half the human population to save a few minor species? Or is there another way to make food that is also healthy and nutritious? These are hard problems. We need deeply thought out and seriously considered solutions. Not snap decisions based on 5-mintues of speculation.

      There are far more problems in the pipe than just GW, and they all have a common cause. Too many people. But that's a whole different problem. In time, it will solve itself. Improved lifestyles and better healthcare seems to encourage smaller family sizes. Eventually we'll stabilize at a lower global population and the climate will stabilize again and so will all the other looming problems. But until then, we have a LOT of humanitarian work to do. Let's get started already.

    117. Re:Time to plant trees by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      Nope
      Cyanobacter

    118. Re:Time to plant trees by AutodidactLabrat · · Score: 1

      "without subsidies"
      Since when is any fossil fuel, and yes that means Uranium too, without subsidies?
      The Anderson laws prohibit anyone from charging for the worst case insurance cost coverage for nukes
      That alone is worth over 20 BILLION per year in the U.S.
      Add the subsidized cost of containment and shipping rods plus...96000 years of storage and you get a rough equivalent
      Now oil and gas have huge but unmentioned subsides, like the 300 BILLION PER YEAR military protection of U.S. access to foreign oil and control of that market place.
      Health costs, likewise subsidized.
      Want a level playing field for all energy?
      Remove the cost coverage for the two oilwars and healthcare costs for coal, along with the reconditioning costs for abandoned coal / oil slag and now fracking waste and THEN talk to me about subsidies for clean energy

    119. Re:Time to plant trees by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Currently, nuclear power isn't very cost effective and it's very centralized which makes it a vulnerability.

      Cost effective? Nuclear power currently makes about 1/3rd of the electricity in the USA, if it's not cost effective then it seems the people running the plants didn't get that memo.

      Vulnerable? Vulnerable to what? Wind? Hail? Clouds? Nuclear power reactors are in big steel and concrete structures, they are about as invulnerable as they can get. When we see naval aircraft carriers running off of wind and sun then we can talk about nuclear power being "vulnerable".

      Distributed solar power is a better idea and reduces the amount of infrastructure that needs to be maintained.

      Did you say "reduces" the infrastructure needed? What about all those batteries that people keep talking about to make wind and solar viable? Is that not "infrastructure"? Or a "smart grid"? That's infrastructure, and it doesn't exist. We have the infrastructure to make nuclear power work, it's called a "nuclear power plant" and they are relatively self sufficient. Just don't build them on fault lines and they should run for nearly a century at a time without problems. Put them on a floating platform, you know, like the US Navy does. When on water that solves a lot of "vulnerability" problems, kind of like how wind power works better on the water too, no pesky neighbors to complain.

      Sure, go use solar power where it makes sense. The problem is that the places it makes sense is so small that it is nearly non-existent. Nuclear power on the other hand works well almost anywhere. If it being "vulnerable" bothers you then surround them with a bunch of well trained men with guns, kind of like how the Navy does it, such as on a military base.

      It won't work everywhere but insisting on perfection prevents improvement.

      Kind of like how people demand perfection from nuclear power plants before they get built? That kind of puts a damper on nuclear power too, don't you think? There's a lot of ways to improve nuclear power but people need to actually build them to learn. That includes being able to make some mistakes. Oh, and Chernobyl wasn't a "mistake" that was gross incompetence. I mean "mistake" like being allowed to make changes to a design when a flaw is discovered in a design without needed three years of review, and 50 signatures, to allow it to happen.

      It would be nice if the government would fund research into next gen reactors which don't have an abundance of fissile material and thus are incapable of a meltdown but those don't make weapons, so they will not fund it.

      NO! Get the government out of it. There's enough private research in this but no one in the government seems willing to let people actually build something. The nuclear power industry has been at a standstill precisely because the government has been "funding research" for the past 40 years. We have enough research, we need to build now. Oh, and that research does include reactors that don't produce weapon grade material, or make long lived fission products (at least none that isn't fuel), and are immune to a meltdown. Enough researching, time to build something.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    120. Re:Time to plant trees by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Yep, that how it was done in the past. Time to stop doing that.

      I keep hearing how wind and solar need government funded research to be "viable" in the future. We've been doing this for 40 or 50 years now. How much longer must this continue before we take of these training wheels and see if the industry can stay upright on its own? It seems nuclear was doing fine until the government got scared off from issuing licenses. People want to build nuclear power without the government paying them to do it. Let them do it.

      It seems no one, or very few, people want to build wind or solar unless the government pays them to do it. If wind and solar is so great then why is it still a tiny fraction of our energy even after decades of subsidies? Maybe it isn't so great and it's time to stop throwing good money at it.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    121. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      Currently, nuclear power isn't very cost effective and it's very centralized which makes it a vulnerability.

      Cost effective? Nuclear power currently makes about 1/3rd of the electricity in the USA, if it's not cost effective then it seems the people running the plants didn't get that memo.

      There is more than just the reactor when it comes to nuclear power.

      Vulnerable? Vulnerable to what?

      Vulnerable to disruption of distribution. It could be a nation-state taking down your grid via internet or just a storm that knocks down a few too many trees. Either way, the entire grid goes down and that's the vulnerability behind centralized power.

      Distributed solar power is a better idea and reduces the amount of infrastructure that needs to be maintained.

      Did you say "reduces" the infrastructure needed? What about all those batteries that people keep talking about to make wind and solar viable? Is that not "infrastructure"?

      Batteries would be part of the structure. You should look up the definition of infrastructure.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    122. Re:Time to plant trees by PlaynBass · · Score: 1

      Already done! It's called a GOP Congress. They breathe in air, but they can not expel any noticeable gas of any kind since all human activities by definition have absolutely no effect on the climate. They also own all those CAFO GMO-bred cows that don't emit ANY methane!

      --
      PlaynBass
    123. Re:Time to plant trees by Contract+Gypsy · · Score: 0

      Yep, thats a must because the toilet paper keeps getting smaller!

      --
      Life is in a state of dynamic equilibrium, it both blows and sucks
    124. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I agree. Thorns in your hands from picking brambles? WTF was gp doing, grabbing the branch and trying to shake them free?

    125. Re:Time to plant trees by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I keep hearing how wind and solar need government funded research to be "viable" in the future.

      Nope. It just needs it to compete with the government funded research into extractive and/or polluting methods. I'm all for ending all energy subsidies in theory, but then... do you really want some other nation to have all the energy patents?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    126. Re: Time to plant trees by surd1618 · · Score: 1

      in the northwest (outside metro areas) Himalayan blackberries are incredibly abundant. most folks have enough within a block to satisfy their wants. people only go picking to make jam or wine. i wish there were some raspberries mixed in.

    127. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You ever plant a tree, bro? It's not unskilled labor.

      ~ Johnny A. Seed.

      LOL... but seriously, planting trees won't do shit. We're fucked, I'm sorry to tell you. The issue here isn't just DIRECTION, it's MOMENTUM. To illustrate the point, imagine we're all on a bus, and people ON the bus are waking up to the fact that the driver is a raving psychotic lunatic and we are fast approaching a cliff.

      You shout, "quick everyone grab the steering wheel away from the driver and let's yank on it REALLY hard to the left, to keep us from going over the cliff!"

      Trouble is, the bus weighs, with fuel and baggage, about 30,000 pounds... and there're about 8,000,000,000 people on it, who also have some heft to them, even ignoring all the fat ones. All that mass has a vector, that is, a speed, (rate of change of location with respect to time,) and a direction, (in this case, towards the entirely inadequate guardrail). There is a LIMIT, and not a very high one, to how much force the tires can add or subtract in any given direction, and that maximum ASSUMES that you're dealing with ROLLING friction (rapidly changing but generally equivalent successive instances of static friction, basically,) and not say... SLIDING friction... Beyond that limit, all the tires do is scream, and make the ride bumpier, perhaps changing the ORIENTATION of the vehicle, while doing almost nothing whatsoever to its path of travel. In an extreme case, they flip the bus over, and the sides and top have, incredibly, even less available friction to offer to slow motion in the original direction.

      Sorry for the long-winded digression, but it was needed. The GLOBAL CLIMATE is the same basic way. It's getting hotter because changes to the composition of the atmosphere, (which take decades to effect,) have resulted in changes to how effective the atmosphere IS at preventing incoming solar energy from being able to leave Earth. THESE changes have in turn altered certain features of the Earth's SURFACE, increasing the amount of water-covered surface, (which has Earth's LOWEST natural albedo, meaning it is the least shiny and reflective viewed from space,) and at the same time, and in the same proportions, DECREASED the amount covered in ice, which is the material on Earth with the GREATEST natural albedo, meaning with every square foot of the surface of the ocean near the poll that WAS covered in ICE, and is now naked, dark and heaving liquid water, it went from being VERY shiny and REFLECTIVE of incoming light, to almost the complete opposite, as it also became the most light-ABSORBING of kinds of surface the Earth naturally shows space. This means UNAVOIDABLY that as that water gets warmer, (further contributing to melting of the ice cap,) it will help melt MORE ice, and THAT newly melted water will in turn help warm and melt EVEN MORE ice... and the cycle continues.

      While the sea-ice melts, land ice, dirt that has water trapped in it that used to remain generally frozen YEAR-ROUND, (or "permafrost," as it's called,) is melting, which further complicates things.

      Here's something you REALLY need to know. There are basically NO dinosaurs, nor any chemical remnants thereof, in your gas tank, contrary to popular belief.

      The basic chemistry of life is largely unchanged over the past couple of BILLION years, and consequently, what we today call the "rule of ten," most likely also applied 65+ million years ago too, though given advances in life that result FROM the further evolution and refinement of life itself, it might have been less efficient then, and maybe it'd be more accurate to call it the Rule of perhaps... Eleven, or maybe Twelve...

      The Rule of Ten basically states that IN GENERAL, it takes ten pounds of one kind of organic matter, to make ONE pound of organic matter, in the next higher level of the food chain.

      In essence, it takes ten pounds of flies to make a pound of spider, ten pounds of spider (and therefore a hundred pounds of flies,) to make a pound of small bird. It takes ten pounds of

    128. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      355/113 gets you within 1 PPM.

      While 3.14 gets you as close as 99.999999% of people will need in their typical day-to-day lives, which is why most people you find and ask "what's Pi"? will tell you that that's what it is.

      I mention only because if you have a calculator capable of giving you a useful answer to "3 5 5 divide 1 1 3 equals" (or the patience to work it out using long division,) " it can also just tell you the value of the constant, with somewhere between eight and fifteen decimal places, before it runs out of space on the display. ;-p

    129. Re:Time to plant trees by pots · · Score: 1

      The idea behind capturing carbon via trees isn't the individual trees themselves, it's reforestation. Forests do permanently remove carbon from the atmosphere, even if individual trees do die eventually. (assuming someone doesn't come down and chop down the forests again)

      Burying the carbon is another good option, but way more expensive. I'm not aware of any real large-scale proposals for this, let alone implementations. It's hard enough at this point just to get people to acknowledge the problem - spending those kinds of resources to address it seems infeasible.

    130. Re:Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's completely wrong. The percentage of CO2 in the atmosphere attributable to burning fossil fuels is 3%. That CO2 was previously held in tree plants and animals that got fossilised. Covering the planet with trees would easily soak up that CO2 many time over if you had enough of them. Even though 97% of scientists are scared enough of losing their jobs or at least being ridiculed for suggesting that the current bout of global warming might just be a natural cyclic phenomena unrelated to the small (relatively) amount of CO2 thats attributed the burning of fossil fuels, I think the jury is still out on whether that amount of CO2 is causing the warming. Also the melting of the permafrost may also lead to new photosynthesising plant life.

    131. Re:Time to plant trees by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      Burying the carbon is another good option, but way more expensive. I'm not aware of any real large-scale proposals for this, let alone implementations.

      The biggest issue is actually capturing the CO2 itself. We've managed to figure that out just fine: https://www.fastcompany.com/40...

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    132. Re: Time to plant trees by VisceralLogic · · Score: 1

      I don't know what kind of blackberry bushes drinkypoo was picking, but the Himalayan blackberries up in the Puget Sound area are abundant producers. We have a row maybe 30 feet long behind our fence that has probably a half gallon ripe every few days. The electric pole swath behind our subdivision is also covered with blackberries, and would easily match his experience.

      --
      Stop! Dremel time!
    133. Re:Time to plant trees by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      If you're working on an 8 or 16 bit processor without an FPU, 355/113 is a really good ratio to know, especially if precision is important. Used it a lot in old 8 bit (8051 based) avionics systems back in the 80s and early 90s!

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    134. Re: Time to plant trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whats that ratio of power switzerland consumes against what it produces?
      genuinely curious.
      I suppose you have plenty of hydro but do you import a load from the neighbouring countries?

    135. Re:Time to plant trees by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      Nothing a nuclear winter can't solve ... so it looks like we're going the right way hah hah ... thats gonna take a lot of trees otherwise, whats the carbon footprint on the actual process of planting one tree ? how long before its big enough to actually clear what it took to be planted ? Is the planet dead by then ? my glass has never been half full, i simply can't think like that so i think like this all the time, i hear normals die from it

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  2. Good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now I will consider moving there.

    1. Re:Good. by hey! · · Score: 1

      You realize it will still get cold in the winter, don't you?

      AGW's direct effects in high latitudes are confined to the summer, when there is solar radiation to trap.

      Granted there are indirect effects caused by the trapping of thermal energy in the oceans and the exchange of air masses with lower latitudes, but on most winter days it will as cold as it ever was.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  3. "Perma"frost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Challenge accepted!

  4. Re:How did the plants sink into the permafrost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    We're entering the final stages of the Quaternary glaciation period. This is just the latest period of glaciation among many such ice ages. Between past ice ages there have been periods of time when glaciation has been less than even it is now, which has allowed fauna and flora to readily survive and flourish in environments that today are considered inhospitable frozen wastelands. This is why we can find plant and animal matter well under what are today layers of permafrost.

    Some will wrongly claim that it's due to land that was formerly in warmer climates moving northward due to plate tectonics, but they misunderstand the geologic timelines we're talking about here. When discussing periods of glaciation, we're talking about the last 500 million to 1000 million years. While Australia, India and South America have seen significant movement, the Arctic regions have actually remained quite stationary for billions of years.

    The most important thing to get out of this is that we're looking at cycles that take millions of years to complete. These cycles existed long before humans existed, and by extension, long before the Industrial Revolution that started a mere 300 years ago. Despite what politicians say, especially politicians who are eager to impose carbon taxes, humans have nothing to do with the temperature changes we're witnessing. They're merely part of long-running cycles of increasing and decreasing glaciation. We just happen to be nearing, in geological terms, the end of a period of glaciation, which is exactly when we'd expect temperatures to be rising in areas where glaciation has decreased. This is a process that has been going on for a long time, well before human involvement could have ever played any role.

  5. Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Every generation is phenomenally stupid about something that should be blindingly obvious.

    The fact that we've dominated the environment to the degree we have should be obvious - we've gone from 2% of the land mammal biomass to 98% when you include our livestock.

    We have evidence of multiple mass extinctions caused by exactly these same events:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I agree with the thought that some of the established concepts can have some bullshit in it - but that's exactly why we need repeatable research done and confirmed, and USED TO IMPROVE THINGS before we basically repeat history and ruin the planet for millions of years again.

    The Trump move to eliminate climate research, and to silence researchers is more than the normal level of stupid.

    1. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No way. They have been caught in a lie since "Batman Returns". Its not real enough to matter.

    2. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you have to go back to a very, very long time ago to find a time when 98% of land mammals weren't our feed stock.

      Oh, and your number is completely made up bullshit unless you're arguing that rats, mice and voles are still part of our feedstock.

    3. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      And yet - we already fucking know. How much more research do we need ?

      And how many of us have really changed our lives to a significant degree ? (Almost none)

      You same lefties that can seemingly bring to a halt companies over stupid social shit can't put the pressure on your same companies to tackle these issues ?

      Instead of getting mad at trump / deniers, fucking act.

    4. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe cause de states are a big part of the problem? If they improve 1%, that is already a lot. Same goes for China.

      Small countries can only do so much

    5. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You same lefties

      The "neo-nazis" that trigger them so hard represent a small, declining strain of people that have negative population growth and aren't doing most of the consuming and emitting. They can't afford to build McMansions or acquire $80k hybrid SUVs. They don't replace their iphones every 12 months. They don't operate a phalanx of cloud VMs for a living. The "gigafactory" isn't supplying batteries for their composite pickups. The don't live in the "same day" Amazon delivery areas.

      Yet somehow it's all their fault. If it wasn't for those knuckle draggers the US would be one big sustainable national park from coast to la-la land coast.

    6. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      It simply doesn't matter. What America does is automatically wrong. Can you imagine anyone praising Trump's America? The very concept is absurd. Let the rest of the world handle it, they are more qualified and less racist. If America DID do anything successful, imagine the pride and cheers of "USA! USA!" from the deplorables. It's a lose-lose situation.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    7. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stop complaining about limiting research funding. How is more climate study doing to help us when we refuse to move forward with the solutions that must all be employed to significantly reduce carbon? A lot of wind, solar, and nuclear plus EVs. As long as we have idiots that deny any one of these is needed, it matters none what research we do. At this point all we need to do is monitor.

    8. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You same lefties

      The "neo-nazis" that trigger them so hard represent a small, declining strain of people that have negative population growth and aren't doing most of the consuming and emitting. They can't afford to build McMansions or acquire $80k hybrid SUVs. They don't replace their iphones every 12 months. They don't operate a phalanx of cloud VMs for a living. The "gigafactory" isn't supplying batteries for their composite pickups. The don't live in the "same day" Amazon delivery areas.

      Yet somehow it's all their fault. If it wasn't for those knuckle draggers the US would be one big sustainable national park from coast to la-la land coast.

      Basically, yeah. Those "knuckle draggers" as you call them are the American version of the Taliban/ISIS, marching with torches and chanting "Blood and soil" whatever the hell that Nazi slogan means. It's American, so like the beer its watered down and the religion is mostly clung to like a local sports team that last won a championship 30 years so, but the principles are the same:
      1) My life sucks compared to what super rich people have
      2) A minute strain of those super rich people are a different color.
      3) Therefore if not for those "bad hombres" I'd be super rich.

      It's as if Vanilla Ice joined the KKK because he thought if Dr. Dre wasn't allowed to sing he'd be all Fly n Schizzle or whatever. Ditto for most of the gay bashers. The most virulent of them are closet homos and the rest think that any woman that turns them down is a dyke instead of has at least minimal standards.

      I don't like either of those groups but damn, if the Gov't can ostracize them that's one step closer to me.

      Assholes like Okian "only on my keyboard" Warrior and "mighty" Martian are members of the lil weiner club. You can see it in their names. They will rant and rage and claim to have principles, but they never hold their "team" to the same standard. They're all hypocrites.

    9. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by PoopJuggler · · Score: 1

      Why should we do it? Because the world needs less people who say, "Let someone else do it."

    10. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe he means animal biomass. A cow could easily cancel out hundreds of rats in that measure.

    11. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like a true dumbass lie-beral. I bet you eat GMO's, vaccinate your autistic kids and donate to fascist orgs like the ACLU and Planned Abortionhood too.

    12. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol. You cunt. Way to walk right into calling out the neonazis and ignore both posts that the supposedly environmentally friendly progressives are doing shit all to meaningfully change their lifestyles.

        (The number of hardcore lefties I know for example that drove to the totality is mind boggling - what a fucking waste of carbon, you douchebags)

      Trump was right about one thing. Both sides fucking suck.

    13. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Joviex · · Score: 1

      Oh, and your number is completely made up bullshit unless you're arguing that rats, mice and voles are still part of our feedstock.

      Look up the word BIOMASS, ass.

    14. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Joviex · · Score: 1

      Trump was right about one thing. Both sides fucking suck.

      This is why we cant take you serious, Trump isnt right about anything.

    15. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spoken like a true Trump voting conservative man-in-the-sky believing daugther-raping tribal barbarian inbread republitard.

      Hey, I know you're just a fucking troll, but this time YOU provided ME with entertainement, That's all you worthless filth are good for anyway.

    16. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by hey! · · Score: 2

      They think they want good government and justice for all, Vimes, yet what is it they really crave, deep in their hearts? Only that things go on as normal and tomorrow is pretty much like today.

      -- The Patrician of Ankh-Morpork, Feet of Clay, Terry Pratchett

      And when that fails the next Pratchettian proviso kicks in:

      he phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.

      In other words most people don't want to believe change is coming, and when they can't keep that up, they don't want to believe there's anything they can do about it.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    17. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you thinking that is why he'll win again in 2020.

    18. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For mine it was bell-bottoms. They just looked REALLY stupid... and tie-dye... Our drugs were better though.

      J/K. I grew up in the 80s, so our phenomenal stupidity was the rock & roller cola wars, or at least that's what Billy Joel said. LOL

    19. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      We know that AGW is happening, and have fairly good ideas as to where it's going. Beyond that, things get iffy. It would be nice to have a better idea of the economic costs. It would be nice to have a better idea as to what will happen. It would be nice to have ideas on what to do about it.

      You same lefties that can seemingly bring to a halt companies over stupid social shit

      If we lefties could actually do that, rather than seeming to do it, we'd be in better shape. Got companies in mind that were forced into bankruptcy by important social concerns?

      As far as acting goes, nobody here makes a measurable difference to the CO2 in the atmosphere. We're doing that collectively, and to meaningfully slow it down we need collective action. Market forces would work, if we could internalize the CO2 externalities. That's why I'm in favor of carbon taxes, and with the current President there's not a snowball's chance of them passing in the US.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    20. Re: Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Have you looked at his approval numbers lately? He's got his deluded group of core supporters, making irrational demands out of their sense of entitlement, and pretty much nobody else.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:Every generation is phenomenally stupid... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I think you may just have insulted conservatives.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    A category 4 hurricane just hit the Texas coast and our President still hasn't appointed anyone to head the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA, or any of the agencies that deal with hurricanes.

    Today, as he flew off on a golfing trip to Camp David, he was asked if he had a message for the people of Texas. His reply was, "Good luck".

    http://www.nydailynews.com/new...

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
    1. Re:In other climate news by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      And on the same day, he pardoned convicted ex-Sherriff Joe Arpaio, and banned transgendered people from serving in the military.

      At least Bush managed to show up at a press conference for Katrina with his jacket taken off.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    2. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Nominations not getting through? Thank you Democrats

      Good try, but Trump hasn't even nominated anyone for the posts I listed.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    3. Re:In other climate news by silentcoder · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, we're not talking about nominations that aren't getting through. We're talking about nominations that haven't been MADE. Democrats can neither approve nor deny a nomination that hasn't been made. Democrats fought against some of Trump's nominees - and lost every battle. But the vast majority of posts he has never nominated anybody for at all. Because Don the Con has zero interest in doing the president's actual job. He occupies the job for one purpose only: to take a lot of taxpayer money for himself.
      Already the secret service is bankrupt from bills they have to pay to properties owned by Trump on his constant vacations. The man they are protecting is actually billing them for the privilege of protecting him - to the extent that they are now broke.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    4. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      A competent White House and majority party would probably find a way to govern while controlling all three branches of government—despite being served what they dished out:

      Republicans engaged in similar procedural combat after Democrats made the 2013 change, tying up the Senate to slow President Barack Obama’s push to fill judicial vacancies. “We became pretty good at it ourselves,” acknowledged Senator John Cornyn of Texas, the No. 2 Senate Republican."

      Hopefully the great state of Texas will make do with the incompetent administration it voted in.

    5. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uhh, he already freed-up money and federal help:

      https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/901205593054162945?s=09

    6. Re: In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He stared down the sun in Monday. The hurricane is nothing compared to that.

    7. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. It's time a President had the stones to actually start drowning the baby. The government is bloated and needs to be shrunk. We should all be applauding President Trump for actually having the courage to get it done and make America great again. The amount of whining and gnashing of teeth from people like you is all I need to know Trump is doing an amazing job.

    8. Re: In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump is not a meteorologist so it is stupid for him to offer help so soon.

    9. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obama, on the other hand, would have used his magic ability to control weather to steer Harvey away from the US, then cured cancer and solved world hunger for the third and sixth time, respectively.

    10. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FEMA has a Trump appointed head you ignorant fuck. Dem cocksuckers like you are worthless...

    11. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong you butthole wrangler. FEMA has a head. You're too stupid and blinded by partisan hatred to learn a few things. Too busy sucking on Pelosi's teats?

    12. Re:In other climate news by meglon · · Score: 1, Informative
      ...and because you can't seem to be able to read....

      Here is what is happening: Democrats are requiring that Republicans check all the procedural boxes on most nominees....

      ...which means, the rules say it has to be done a specific way, and democrats are saying the republicans have to follow the rules.

      “The level of obstruction exhibited by Senate Democrats on these nominees is just breathtaking,” Mr. McConnell said...

      ...and yet it is still far, far better than what McConnell and the other bitch republicans did with Merrick Garland, a level of obstruction that had never been seen before. And because you're an inbred little piece of shit hypocrite...

      Republicans engaged in similar procedural combat after Democrats made the 2013 change, tying up the Senate to slow President Barack Obama’s push to fill judicial vacancies.

      So, you vindictive partisan fuck..... go to a library and beg them to get you into a class to teach you how to read. Then cut your nuts off, you ignorant dipshits are fucking up the gene pool.

      --
      Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
    13. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trump signed a disaster proclamation to help:

      https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/901259509632573440?s=09

    14. Re: In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahahahaha... You're a fucking clueless moron. It takes literally 8 seconds of Googling to prove you 100% wrong.

    15. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Brock Long is the head of FEMA

      Now I can get my fake news in Slashdot comments too

    16. Re:In other climate news by Kevin108 · · Score: 1

      Punctuating your opinion with ad hominem attacks will certainly get others to understand your point.

      --

      It's a perfect time for being wasted.
      A perfect time to watch the stars.
      - Burden Brothers, "Beautiful Night"
    17. Re:In other climate news by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the good people of Texas don't want federal help. They are perfectly capable of helping themselves.

    18. Re:In other climate news by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good try, but Trump hasn't even nominated anyone for the posts I listed.

      Look: you still don't get it. Trump hasn't nominated them and for the nominated ones the republicans control both houses, but it's still the democrat's fault.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    19. Re:In other climate news by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Thus Trump adds even more to global warming as CNN goes into a NOVA like meltdown. The permafrost is fucked.

    20. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't even know what a "transgendered people" is. Is that like a transsexual?

      Sort-of-ish. But there isn't need to go into the distinction in detail because, from reading the statement in question, they are using the term specifically for people who have undergone gender reassignment surgery and are dependent on chronic medication. It seems that they consider being transgender as something similar to having severe asthma.

    21. Re:In other climate news by doctorvo · · Score: 2

      A category 4 hurricane just hit the Texas coast and our President still hasn't appointed anyone to head the Department of Homeland Security, FEMA, or any of the agencies that deal with hurricanes.

      As usual, you are either uninformed or simply lying:

      Long was confirmed as FEMA administrator by the Senate in June, just a few months ago, but he is not exactly a stranger to the agency. He was a regional manager there during the George W. Bush administration, and he went on to serve as Alabama's emergency management director.

      As for DHS, Trump got both Kelly and Duke confirmed; Kelly has taken on a new role and Duke is acting director until a new nomination. You know, as it should be.

    22. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's still the democrat's fault.

      Really? Which one?

    23. Re:In other climate news by El+Cubano · · Score: 1

      "The level of obstruction exhibited by Senate Democrats on these nominees is just breathtaking," Mr. McConnell said...

      ...and yet it is still far, far better than what McConnell and the other bitch republicans did with Merrick Garland, a level of obstruction that had never been seen since at least 1992 thanks to then-Senator Joe Biden and the Democrats. And because you're an inbred little piece of shit hypocrite...

      There. I fixed that for you. Here is a citation in case you are unaware of what I am referring to.

    24. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seriously, although this seems like a thread jack it should be 'class' 5.

    25. Re:In other climate news by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Really? Which one?

      Hillary of course.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    26. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the good people of Texas don't want federal help. They are perfectly capable of helping themselves.

      I happen to be in Texas, and the people down here can't even help themselves to a decent education.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    27. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Duke is acting director until a new nomination.

      Elaine Duke is a placeholder. Who has Donald Trump nominated to be the head of DHS? Oh, that's rignt...nobody.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    28. Re:In other climate news by PPH · · Score: 1

      An education isn't that difficult to come by if everything you need to know is contained in one book.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    29. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then fuck off back to Chicago, prick.

    30. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you actually READ the post you're responding to (I know, education is a feared thing in the eyes of a Democrat) you'd see he nominated - and had confirmed - Kelly. Kelly has moved to a new position, and Kelly's 2nd in command - also nominated and confirmed - is now in charge of DHS. So that's DHS and FEMA where you were totally, absolutely, incontrovertibly, provably WRONG.

      Are you man enough to admit you were WRONG? Or will you pull a a Democrat and just ignore and continue on your crusade of politics of personal destruction?

    31. Re:In other climate news by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      Who has Donald Trump nominated to be the head of DHS? Oh, that's rignt...nobody.

      As I was saying: As for DHS, Trump got both Kelly and Duke confirmed

      Elaine Duke is a placeholder.

      Elaine Duke is the confirmed undersecretary, not a "placeholder".

    32. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Elaine Duke is only the acting head of DHS. They are awaiting Trump to nominate someone.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    33. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Then fuck off back to Chicago, prick.

      In a few days, we're moving to the Central Coast of California. Texas is a shithole (especially Houston, but the whole state is garbage). The people are great, but the actual state is as ugly as it gets and the climate is a steaming turd I can't get out of here fast enough. We're gonna be living near the ocean and I'm going to learn to surf and be insulated in the People's Republic of California, about as far away from Washington DC and Donald Trump as one can get in the lower 48. There's wine in wine country and vegetables in the valley and I'm hoping my new home state goes ahead and secedes from the rest of you jackoffs.

      It's well worth the additional living expense to be somewhere beautiful, where the climate is actually fit for humans and there are no Hurricane Harveys (It was fucked up here last night).

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    34. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Elaine Duke is the confirmed undersecretary, not a "placeholder".

      I don't know if you've ever worked in a place that had an "acting" director or manager, but if you did, you'd know that means "placeholder". Elaine Duke is a placeholder.

      And what kind of a name is "Duke", anyway? Is she related to the famous Trump supporter and head of the KKK David Duke by any chance?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    35. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it was downgraded to a Cat 1 once it hit shore. Once again fake news being spread he. BTW he declared it a disaster before it hit shore if you read another news source once in awhile.

    36. Re:In other climate news by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you've ever worked in a place that had an "acting" director or manager, but if you did, you'd know that means "placeholder". Elaine Duke is a placeholder.

      I think we have firmly established that you have been lying, lying, and lying again.

      And what kind of a name is "Duke", anyway? Is she related to the famous Trump supporter and head of the KKK David Duke by any chance?

      You tell me: you're the fascist.

    37. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depending on where you are stationed or what you do, your potential health needs may be unable to be met. For example, I had a friend who was in the Navy. He was a submarine guy. At some point he found out he was diabetic. This was deemed to much a risk for the ship as he would die if he didn't have his insulin.

      He was discharged from the military. No idea if the medication a transgender person takes would kill them if they stopped taking it, but in some situations I could see not having someone with specific medical needs there.

      I always wondered why my buddy couldn't get picked up on a Carrier or larger ship but I guess the Navy wasn't okay with having a diabetic. That'd be the only reason a transgender would be disallowed to serve in my book, because doing so would be an unnecessary risk to the team, squad, ship whatever.

      Otherwise, can't see any difference it would make. Didn't that navy seal do it?

    38. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      it was downgraded to a Cat 1 once it hit shore.

      That's simply not true. It hit Rockport, Corpus and Matagorda as a Cat 4 last night at about 10pm. It wasn't downgraded to Cat 3 until this morning. It is expected to go down to Cat 1 status later today. Winds are still over 90mph down here.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    39. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > We're gonna be living near the ocean and I'm going to learn to surf

      Surf's up in Galveston, right now!! don't miss it!

    40. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't know Soros paid for moving expenses. I wouldn't have thought being a paid Democrat shill paid enough to afford the ridiculous taxes imposed on Californians but I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense.

    41. Re:In other climate news by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Funny

      I didn't know Soros paid for moving expenses.

      He does once you make regional manager. Currently, I'm a assistant vice president for all left-wing trolls, counter-protesters and transgender activists West of the Mississippi, so I was able to get moving expenses. Plus, when I get to California, I'm given a medical marijuana card immediately and am eligible for free gender-reassignment surgery for my dog.

      I wouldn't have thought being a paid Democrat shill paid enough to afford the ridiculous taxes imposed on Californians

      It actually pays very well, but it's a strict meritocracy. My evaluations are based on the number of Slashdot Anonymous Cowards I can make jump up and down and piss themselves in fury. And let me tell you, business is a-boomin'.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    42. Re:In other climate news by tbannist · · Score: 1

      Punctuating your opinion with ad hominem attacks will certainly get others to understand your point.

      Those aren't "ad hominem attacks", they're insults and they're not the same thing. For example an ad hominem goes like this "Nothing you say is correct because you're an illiterate moron", however, "You're an illiterate moron because nothing you say is correct" is not an ad hominem, it's just insulting. The crucial part of an "ad hominem" is dismissing the argument because of who the person making the argument is. Insulting someone while you are making an argument is rude but not fallacious.

      For the record, I tend to agree with your point that punctuating your arguments with insults rarely does anything to convince people who are inclined to disagree with you.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    43. Re:In other climate news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elaine Duke is only the acting head of DHS. They are awaiting Trump to nominate someone.

      Trump nominated Kelly. Kelly got confirmed. Then Kelly left for a new job at the end of July and Duke has taken over. Finding a new head of DHS will probably take a few months because that's how much time these things take. That means Trump has done his job: all his nominations for DHS were timely.

      You just keep demonstrating that you are a dishonest, partisan prick.

    44. Re:In other climate news by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Already the secret service is bankrupt from bills they have to pay to properties owned by Trump

      From the Constitution, Article 2, Section One: "The President shall, as stated Times, receive for his Services, a Compensation, which shall neither be increased nor diminished during the Period for which he shall have been elected, and he shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them."

      I want clawback lawsuits after he leaves office.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. Aren't land mammals rare though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In 1500 there were 500 million people +/-. And except for nomads, all of them depended on farming.

    Nomads are uncommon and very in number.

    In the animal kingdom, all animals are nomads. None of them farm.

    This is simple cause and effect that a species that uses farming is going to have a disproportionate population size. Deer populations starve themselves to death with overpopulation and eating all the available food in winter.

    1. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ants farm, and so do beavers.

    2. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Beavers, the sneaky bastards.

      The "Land mammals" aspect kind of eliminates the ants.

    3. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      "In the animal kingdom, all animals are nomads. None of them farm."

      "Ants farm, and so do beavers."

      Second AC wins.

    4. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was a reply about "land mammals".

      Ants don't count as land mammals.

      re: "we've gone from 2% of the land mammal biomass to 98%" --- this was topic

      *land mammals*

    5. Re: Aren't land mammals rare though? by Entrope · · Score: 1

      Over the last (roughly) 200,000 years, we have gone from 1% of the genus Homo to 100% of the genus Homo. Discuss, with particular emphasis on why we should think either measure is important.

    6. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I worked at a nursery and I have seen these ant farms you speak of. Every once in a while, there would be a dandelion in the ground with crazy ant activity swarming in and out around its root. Every time I pulled up the dandelion by the root, there would be hundreds of aphids feeding off the dandelion root.

      I eventually came to the realization that if you zoomed out to a relative size where humans were the size of ants, what we do with cows would look very similar.

    7. Re: Aren't land mammals rare though? by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Over the last (roughly) 200,000 years, we have gone from 1% of the genus Homo to 100% of the genus Homo.

      This is why republicans hate those homos.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    8. Re:Aren't land mammals rare though? by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      Ants don't count as land mammals.

      So what you are saying then s you do not believe in evolution being possible - classic science denial!!!

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  8. Re:How did the plants sink into the permafrost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While Australia, India and South America have seen significant movement, the Arctic regions have actually remained quite stationary for billions of years.

    No, the North American Plate has crossed the equator twice in the last half billion years, and even about 200 mya Alaska would have been at a similar latitude as New York or northern California.

    However, it is wrong to say much of that organic matter comes from 500 mya, as the timeline for plant matter being trapped in permafrost is completely different than the geological timescales of the contents moving... but that also means it has nothing to do with cycles of hundreds of millions of years either.

    Just because you can point at someone else as wrong and say something contrary to them doesn't stop you both from being wrong.

  9. Unstable equilibrium by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Every generation is phenomenally stupid about something that should be blindingly obvious.

    The fact that we've dominated the environment to the degree we have should be obvious - we've gone from 2% of the land mammal biomass to 98% when you include our livestock.

    We have evidence of multiple mass extinctions caused by exactly these same events:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I agree with the thought that some of the established concepts can have some bullshit in it - but that's exactly why we need repeatable research done and confirmed, and USED TO IMPROVE THINGS before we basically repeat history and ruin the planet for millions of years again.

    The Trump move to eliminate climate research, and to silence researchers is more than the normal level of stupid.

    Every generation is phenomenally stupid about something that should be blindingly obvious.

    The fact that we've dominated the environment to the degree we have should be obvious - we've gone from 2% of the land mammal biomass to 98% when you include our livestock.

    We have evidence of multiple mass extinctions caused by exactly these same events:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    I agree with the thought that some of the established concepts can have some bullshit in it - but that's exactly why we need repeatable research done and confirmed, and USED TO IMPROVE THINGS before we basically repeat history and ruin the planet for millions of years again.

    The Trump move to eliminate climate research, and to silence researchers is more than the normal level of stupid.

    It sounds like the permafrost melting thing is an unstable equilibrium: the more it melts, the more carbon and methane goes into the atmosphere, the warmer it gets, and the more it melts.

    So, here's my question: if we are sitting on an unstable equilibrium like that, why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?

    It would only take a degree or two of variation to trigger the runaway event, but that's never happened due to variations in sun activity?

    The Trump move to eliminate climate research, and to silence researchers is more than the normal level of stupid.

    Every morning I read Breitbart first, then MSM (via Google News). Breitbart to find out what happened, and MSM to find out why it was Trump's fault.

    1. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      "why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?"

      End Permian, 251 million years ago, 96% of species lost

      Known as “the great dying”, this was by far the worst extinction event ever seen; it nearly ended life on Earth. The tabulate corals were lost in this period – today’s corals are an entirely different group. What caused it? A perfect storm of natural catastrophes. A cataclysmic eruption near Siberia blasted CO2 into the atmosphere. Methanogenic bacteria responded by belching out methane, a potent greenhouse gas. Global temperatures surged while oceans acidified and stagnated, belching poisonous hydrogen sulfide. It set life back 300 million years.

    2. Re:Unstable equilibrium by quantaman · · Score: 4, Informative

      It sounds like the permafrost melting thing is an unstable equilibrium: the more it melts, the more carbon and methane goes into the atmosphere, the warmer it gets, and the more it melts.

      So, here's my question: if we are sitting on an unstable equilibrium like that, why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?

      Why doesn't any positive feedback react that way? If I have a single beer that triggers a positive feedback loop where I want another beer, but it doesn't end up with me dead of alcohol poisoning, it ends up with me drunk and deciding I've had enough. An avalanche is another positive feedback, a single snowball might not do anything, but once there's enough sliding snow it starts to trigger more snow to slide.

      But the result isn't snow sliding to the centre of the earth, the positive feedback of sliding snow gives out as the snow reaches the bottom of the mountain.

      Global warming feedbacks aren't fundamentally different, positive feedbacks diminish in effectiveness as the system moves in their direction. The positive feedbacks of global warming are like two meta-stable states of the snow, top of the mountain and bottom of the mountain. Just like we went from an ice age to a modern climate, we're on our way from a modern climate to global warming. And that climate won't be stable either, eventually something else will happen, another set of positive feedback will kick in, and the earth will move to yet another equilibrium.

      It would only take a degree or two of variation to trigger the runaway event, but that's never happened due to variations in sun activity?

      I don't know how typical it is for the sun to cause a crazy hot year, but one really hot year doesn't do much. The permafrost doesn't melt in one hot year, it takes a lot of hot years in a row.

      Every morning I read Breitbart first, then MSM (via Google News). Breitbart to find out what happened, and MSM to find out why it was Trump's fault.

      I read a lot of MSM and Trump's administration has gone more or less how I expected, as has the climate over the past couple decades.

      Somehow I suspect you end up being either surprised the state of reality a lot more often than I do.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    3. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How did it set life back 300 million years? I supposed you could say humans are not the preferred form of life, but all events on earth have led us to have humans. Had the past been different, we would not be here.

    4. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no such thing as unstable equilibrium. Either you are at equilibrium or you are not. To be more accurate, we have to talk about stable oscillation (period one year + some other phenomena with longer period).

      Let's suppose we are not at equilibrium (even if what you are saying has no meaning at all):

      >why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?

      There was a lot of them (but knew it, isn't it?). And this is not a "runaway", we are talking about an instability period until a new equilibrium is reached (more than probably unsustainable for humans).

      We are talking about dynamical systems. These kinds of systems is very well modeled and understood. The basics are very simple as explained in this paper. First try to understand this paper, then try to move to more complex models. If you are not able to understand the basic models, please shut up, your are just noise. A pain in the ass ignorant noise.

    5. Re:Unstable equilibrium by rkordmaa · · Score: 1

      So, here's my question: if we are sitting on an unstable equilibrium like that, why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?

      Well here is the thing, there have been runaways like that, in both directions and quite a few of them. There have been both snowball earth periods and periods with tropics at the poles. Cooling is also an runaway process, more snow means higher albedo means less heat means more snow. In fact if you look at temperatures over geological timescales then Earths climate tends to spend most of the time in one extreme or another. Current global temperatures are rather anomalous, because they are somewhere in the middle, an unstable situation that isn't helped by human activity.

    6. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      It sounds like the permafrost melting thing is an unstable equilibrium: the more it melts, the more carbon and methane goes into the atmosphere, the warmer it gets, and the more it melts.

      So, here's my question: if we are sitting on an unstable equilibrium like that, why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?

      Because there isn't an unlimited amount of CO2. methane, and the other so-called greenhouses. There have been times in the past when the CO2 levels were much higher, and the temperatures were higher as well. enough to more than compensate for the dimmer sun of the period.

      So if all of the sequestered Methane was released, it would suck up energy, and given that it is a much stronger greenhouse gas, would affect temperatures quite a bit. It does dissipate more quickly than CO2, so it would not affect temps for as long It's still up there for a long time by human timescales. There is a wild card in all this too, the methane clathrates that are at present, sitting at the bottom of the oceans. So we wouldn't have runaway greenhouse warming, but it could get really unpleasant for a while, and with a lot of political and social issues.

      But eventually, we would settle into a warmer, but likely slowly declining quasi-equilibrium.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    7. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      But eventually, we would settle into a warmer, but likely slowly declining quasi-equilibrium.

      Burning all the world's fossil fuels would make the poles pretty tropical for (IIRC) 10e4-10e5 years before silicate weathering would bring things down to a reasonably semblance of normality.

      Ultimately the reason why Earth cannot undergo a true runaway warming scenario is that the stratosphere is cold. Water vapor condenses and precipitates out of the upper atmosphere instead of building up there, and CO2 can't get the job done by itself. In a half-billion years or so the increasing solar output will be enough to slowly cook off the oceans, and we'll enter into a 'moist greenhouse' phase before things get *really* toasty.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    8. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So we should just sit in the petri dish and just see where the new equilibrium lands and how the climate reacts?

    9. Re:Unstable equilibrium by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, this isn't really certain. Venus started off not that different from Earth. And the sun has warmed over time.

      The real truth is that we don't *KNOW* that we won't set off a run-away greenhouse effect which doesn't end up with the oceans boiling off into space (slowly, admittedly, but water vapor in the ionosphere tends to loose hydrogen under the influence of solar ultraviolet). We tend to *believe* that this won't happen, but our models aren't good enough to prove this outside of the range under which they have been validated. (Even where they've been validated, they tend to have large error bars, but once you get outside that area...just don't count on them.)

      That's the real reason that the limit of 2 degrees was set. (Well, that and being easy to communicate.) We really don't expect a sudden change at 2 degrees, which is quite fortunate as there's no way we're going to stay within those bounds, but the models become less reliable as you get further away from where they've been tested. And we know for sure that the change won't be evenly distributed.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    10. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not a denier, but I think an ice age is the ultimate positive feedback of global warming. My (shallow) understanding is that the melting of the polar ice caps causes lots of fresh water going into the oceans, a rising of sea level, and the disruption of the ocean's globally warming saline pump, which causes an ice age. I don't see how an ice age is going to affect atmospheric carbon, and I don't see it as any better than Earth turning into a Venus, but it is something to consider, that maybe Global Warming causes ice ages. Maybe we should skip carbon sequestering and start collecting salt and figuring out how to restart the saline pump at some ideal future date? Maybe when an iceberg the size of Delaware, instead of breaking off some far away ice shelf, clings to Delaware instead, forming a ice bridge to Jersey?

    11. Re:Unstable equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Collecting salt isn't the issue, the issue is if we have cold water at the pole(s) to drive the gulf stream. We can't keep things hot enough for long enough to turn into Venus.

    12. Re:Unstable equilibrium by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      "if we are sitting on an unstable equilibrium like that, why hasn't there been runaway carbon dioxide warming in the past?"

      There has been. We didn't exist yet so we didn't care. The carbon was sequestered by trees. It turned into oil and we burned it and now it isn't sequestered.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    13. Re:Unstable equilibrium by beastofburdon · · Score: 0

      So, what evidence do we have that Venus started off "not that different from earth"? I have heard this claim many times, but I have never seen anyone provide any evidence that is not entirely speculation based on assumptions that are known to be flawed.

  10. Like Brock Long? by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 3, Informative

    No, we're not talking about nominations that aren't getting through. We're talking about nominations that haven't been MADE.

    You mean like Brock Long, head of FEMA?

    The Brock Long that isn't incompetent?

    The Brock Long that was confirmed in June?

    1. Re:Like Brock Long? by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Quit confusing the issue with facts.

    2. Re:Like Brock Long? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If Trump follows his usual pattern, he won't actually make it possible for Brock to do his job, no matter how competent he might be. I'd be glad to be proved wrong, but have no faith that it even can happen, let alone will.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Like Brock Long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      At first he didn't exist, and now he'll be hamstrung by Trump?

      I like kool-aid too.

    4. Re:Like Brock Long? by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I love how we've gotten to the point that a "gotcha" is that the president nominated someone for a post, and that the nominee isn't incompetent.

      Trump managed to not fuck something up. Take that, libtards!

    5. Re:Like Brock Long? by hey! · · Score: 1

      There's been a considerable effort in recent weeks to reign in some of the chaos in the White House, led by John Kelly, which I expect to be at least moderately successful in the near term. We're still operating under an Obama budget at least through September, and hopefully the Republicans learned their emergency response lesson from Katrina.

      Most of all, Donald Trump wants to look good. This is true of all politicians, but it's rare to have this level of narcissism even in a politician. He also has too short an attention span to interfere much in details.

      So I expect in the near term at least things will run well at FEMA.

      What we will see from the President is extravagant gestures and posturing on disaster management, until inevitably something falls short. It always does, even through no fault of the agency or administration, because that's the nature of a disaster: it undermines your ability to cope.

      Then at *that* point he'll turn on Long, just like he's turned on everyone else who has served him faithfully when matters touching his image can't be avoided.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    6. Re:Like Brock Long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even a stopped clock is right occasionally.

    7. Re:Like Brock Long? by tbannist · · Score: 1

      What? Are you unable to read usernames? They're right there under the subject line. One says PopeRatzo and the other says drinkypoo, that's usually a hint that they aren't the same person and might have independent thoughts.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
    8. Re:Like Brock Long? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather hard to blame the Democrats for stalling the nominations when Trump hasn't made the nominations in the first place.

  11. Re:Blame Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wish you'd call it a lie when Trump says it and acknowledge that people can be wrong without lying.

    Whether Mr. Long is competent, or not, will be seen shortly, but I won't accuse you of lying if he isn't.

  12. Re: Blame Trump by Jesus+H+Rolle · · Score: 1

    Also also, the senate pulled a parliamentary trick to block Trump recess appointments.

    Recess appointments are a sleazy tactic designed to bypass the constitutional requirement that the Senate confirm the nominee.

  13. Gentle response by Okian+Warrior · · Score: 1

    I wish you'd call it a lie when Trump says it and acknowledge that people can be wrong without lying.

    Whether Mr. Long is competent, or not, will be seen shortly, but I won't accuse you of lying if he isn't.

    I'm sorry that my response offended you.

    Next time I'll remember to be polite and gentle responding to a leftist post, because those posts always are.

  14. Basic Income has Failed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's time to face reality and abandon Socialism. We knew the Alaska Permafrost Fund was unsustainable.

  15. Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously. Don't you get it? NOBODY CARES.

    You squirted out all these kids, sang their praises and told yourselves they were the most important thing, and this is the legacy you give them. This isn't proof that humans are a dead-ender species? An evolutionary blip that doesn't know it's ass from a hole in the ground? You still believe in the myth of human progress? You'll be extinct in less than 300 years. And good riddance.

    Just trash the place already and be done with it, you disgusting bunch of fucking knuckle dragging morons.

    1. Re:Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're wrong by an order of magnitude. Extinction will occur in 3 years. Kill yourself now to avoid waiting for the end.

    2. Re: Who cares by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Order of magnitude is a factor of 10, so 300 to 3 would be 2 orders of magnitude.
      the extra permafrost methane can be countered by reducing beef consumption, cows are a big source of methane.

    3. Re: Who cares by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I'm doing my part to get rid of the damn cows. I've got 6 thick juicy ribeye steaks in my fridge now and set to go on the grill tomorrow. Join me and let's eat all those cows.

  16. Re:Blame Trump by meglon · · Score: 4, Informative

    Also, Democrats are slowing down the confirmation process

    Conservatives sure do like being hypocritical little twats.

    Republicans engaged in similar procedural combat after Democrats made the 2013 change, tying up the Senate to slow President Barack Obama’s push to fill judicial vacancies.

    Here's some light reading for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... with highlights:

    The Washington Post has identified 587 key positions requiring U.S. Senate confirmation. Of those key positions, As of August 17, 2017, 117 of Trump's nominees have been confirmed, 106 are awaiting confirmation, and 0 have been announced but not yet formally nominated.

    So.... of the 587 key positions, Trump has nominated 223 as of a week ago. Then, there's this other side of things:

    http://www.politico.com/story/...

    At least 17 of Trump’s nominees took more than a month to be officially sent to the Senate, at which point the vetting by senators and aides can begin in earnest, according to a POLITICO analysis. (One of the 17 nominations, Jim Donovan to be Trump’s deputy Treasury secretary, has since been withdrawn).

    I get it... i really do understand; you conservatives are fucking hypocrites who have to play the victim all the time because you can't govern worth a shit. When you do get in power, the only fucking thing you do is to try to stay in power, instead of help the country.... oh... and whine, a lot.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  17. Re:Blame Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You have not figured out US politics yet.

    Opportunity: Opposing party president needs to do something.

    Step 1: Prevent him from doing it.
    Step 2: Claim the moral and competency highground for your party.

    Same thing happened to Obama. Guantanamo bay is still running 9 years after he said he was going to shut it down early in his presidency. Guantanamo Bay was Obama's border wall.

    Only problem was the foreign prisoners could only be transferred to specific facilities and he had to get permission from the Governor having jurisdiction over those select detention facilities. It just so happened that every governor was a republican. They all said no. Obama's campaign promise was broken and the republican party got to point it out.

    The democrats are no better, but they do run more press so we have to hear the spun consequence of their undermining the good of the country for the party's benefit more often.

  18. Back then by meglon · · Score: 1

    Back when it was being built, our next door neighbor (a carpenter) went up to work on it. I remember at the time there was a lot of concern about how it was being built, directly onto the permafrost... you know, that frozen ground that had been frozen solid for tens of thousands of years. It's going to be one costly s.o.b. when the oil companies who have privatized most of the profit for decades leave the mess for the taxpayers to have to clean up.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  19. Re:Blame Trump by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Democrats are slowing down the confirmation process so that at the current rate, congress will get through all of Trump's nominations in 11 years (!).

    That's the blowback from refusing to even hold hearings on a replacement for Scalia until "the right person" could make that appointment. Now that they've armed this loose cannon, they're going to be repeatedly shot with it -- and it serves them right. Always assume that your opponents will eventually get possession of the ball, and craft your rule changes accordingly. They didn't, this is what happens.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  20. Re: Blame Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Hitler gassed millions of people, therefore I can gas millions of people.

    (You logic)

  21. Re: Blame Trump by meglon · · Score: 0

    You need to take that nickle you got from that last blowjob and buy yourself a dictionary; you clearly need to learn what words mean before you use them. I get it though, you're just a whiny little dipshit who doesn't see the reality of things. You bitch and complain about something democrats are now doing, that your side did a few years ago; and you're trying to place all the blame on them when the simple fact is that Trump is slower than shit getting their paperwork done.... which is also causing delays. Then there's the whole not even nominating people.

    Let me go back and make the bigger point....587 key position, Trump has nominated only 223 of them so far. Thing is, there's a total of 1212 positions that need nominations and senate approval.... yet, 223 nominations so far. It would take a clueless fucking idiot anonymous coward to not understand that; thankfully we have you filling that position to a T. You whiny little victims probably should put on your big boy pants, although considering your nuts haven't dropped yet, i doubt they'd help you not look like fucking idiots.

    --
    Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
  22. Re:Blame Trump by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Short memory Kiddo, The republicans learned this stunt from us 16 years ago.

  23. You forgot to call him Hitler by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot to call him Hitler.

    I subtract 10 points from your screed.

  24. Quit being vindictive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It isn't very becoming.

  25. Re:Blame Trump by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Short memory Kiddo, The republicans learned this stunt from us 16 years ago.

    I like how you talk shit but provide no citation. Classy! Thanks for helping make Slashdot grate! Lazy fuckhead.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  26. Actuallty there's a far cheaper option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop burning fossil fuels. Doesn't matter if you plant trees at 30gt/yr if you keep pumping out CO2 at 31gt/yr.

    Best thing is that NOT doing something is cheaper and less effort than continuing to do it.

  27. use some logic here by doctorvo · · Score: 1

    Starting just a few feet below the surface and extending tens or even hundreds of feet down, it contains vast amounts of carbon in organic matter -- plants that took carbon dioxide from the atmosphere centuries ago, died and froze before they could decompose.

    So, this carbon was captured only "centuries ago", yet its release back into the atmosphere is going to lead to unprecedented global warming that is going to destroy civilization, wipe out humanity, and maybe end higher life on the planet?

    Somebody needs to get their stories straight.

    1. Re:use some logic here by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      So, this carbon was captured only "centuries ago",

      Things captured millenia ago were also captured centuries ago, only more of them. But most importantly, more people know what a century is than a millenium.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:use some logic here by doctorvo · · Score: 1

      Things captured millenia ago were also captured centuries ago, only more of them.

      The article says "took carbon dioxide from the atmosphere centuries ago" which I summarized as "captured centuries ago". Sorry, that's unambiguous and cannot refer to your interpretation.

      But most importantly, more people know what a century is than a millenium.

      Are you having a stroke? In any case, if you're trying to say that the term "centuries" can also refer to a small number of millennia, you are correct. Given climate history, however, that makes the statement of the article even more incongruous.

    3. Re:use some logic here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another interesting point to ponder. If these trees were frozen mere centuries ago, doesn't that mean they weren't covered by ice back then? And wouldn't that imply it was WARMER back when the trees were still living and growing, as opposed to now where they cannot grow?

  28. Re: How did the plants sink into the permafrost? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Milankovitch cycle (which is the relevant one here) means it should currently be cooling, which is what was happening for 8000 years until now. What process do you suggest that is stronger than this cycle, given you've just said this cycle is dominant?

    In terms of human influence, please explain why the physics of radiation balance historically applies to CO2 from non-fossil sources, but not to that from fossil sources released by man?

  29. Re:Blame Trump by El+Cubano · · Score: 2

    Short memory Kiddo, The republicans learned this stunt from us 16 years ago.

    I like how you talk shit but provide no citation. Classy! Thanks for helping make Slashdot grate! Lazy fuckhead.

    Here you go: courtesy of then-Senator Joe Biden

    It was rather aggressively reported by quite a number of media outlets, though I suppose the particular media outlets from which you consume news helpfully decided that this particular bit of information was not at all newsworthy.

  30. If permafrost is lost... by ELCouz · · Score: 1

    wouldn't be offset with trees/plants finally growing in this region like it was before?

    1. Re:If permafrost is lost... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sadly no. The reason is simple enough to understand. The carbon locked in rocks that we use for fossil fuels represent the accumulation from plant materials sequestered over tens and hundreds of millions of years. Consequently, the reservoir of this material in terms of total carbon is far greater than the total amount of plant material ever alive at any one time. The current problem is that we are releasing all of this sequestered carbon essentially all at once on a geological time scale. That is why the Earth is now heating at a rate about 30 times faster than during the Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum, the largest previous spike in temperature in Earth History.

  31. Re:Per PopeFatzo's sponsor George Soros by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Bloody hell, that fat useless fuck APK has got internet access in the asylum again, and is dribbling his billious delusions.

  32. Or you could attack the heat directly. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    You could cover the entire planet surface with trees and it still wouldn't be enough. It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

    Okay. But until we have such machines, the most readily available carbon-sink, cost-effective and easily deployed with unskilled labour, is the tree.

    Or you could attack the alleged problem - heat - directly.

    Orbital sunshades can give you as much cooling as you want. But that's pretty high tech (though far cheaper than the economic damage of most of the current prescriptions.) But there are cheaper and easier ways.

    For instance: You could change the albedo so the Earth, or large parts of it, turned black in the infrared window. This can be done with a number of materials, some of them very cheap (like 0.8 micron glass microspheres - about a tenth the diameter of red blood cells).

    Such microspheres, embedded in a plastic film with the bottom side silvered for reflectivity, produce 93 watts per square meter of net COOLING in the direct noonday sun - and they work 24/7. That's good for 10 degrees C (18 F) - which is more than four times the temperature rise that the global warming proponents are saying is catastrophic. The material can be made for $0.50/square meter even with current processes.

    Without the mirror coating and plastic film, just scattered over the existing surfaces, I'd expect them to do at least half as well (as long as they were on top), and be a hell of a lot cheaper. So if they aren't more of an inhalation hazard than desert sand, scattering them over things like the Sahara could both drastically drop its temperature and substantially reduce that of the planet, as well.

    But you'd better be REALLY SURE the planet is actually warming up - rather than, say, falling into the next ice age in a few hundred years. Sweeping up those glass beads (or undoing a number of other "warming mitigations") might be more difficult than deploying them.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Or you could attack the heat directly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such microspheres, embedded in a plastic film with the bottom side silvered for reflectivity, produce 93 watts per square meter of net COOLING in the direct noonday sun [nih.gov] - and they work 24/7. That's good for 10 degrees C (18 F) - which is more than four times the temperature rise that the global warming proponents are saying is catastrophic

      Ummm, sure. If you cover the _entire_ planet with them. That would only cost about $255 trillion going by your numbers.

      Without the mirror coating and plastic film, just scattered over the existing surfaces, I'd expect them to do at least half as well (as long as they were on top), and be a hell of a lot cheaper. So if they aren't more of an inhalation hazard than desert sand, scattering them over things like the Sahara could both drastically drop its temperature and substantially reduce that of the planet, as well.

      I think that "as long as they were on top" might be a bit of a flaw in your plan. Grains of sand are nearly 2 million times larger than the microbeads you propose (assuming typical sand grains of about a millimeter), and have approximately 20% less surface area relative to their mass compared to the beads. Meanwhile, the Sahara desert is pretty much entirely defined by aeolian processes. In other words, the beads won't last an hour before they blow away and they are, in fact so small, that they may fall into the range where they will simply stay airborne until they land in water, where they will be lost forever.

    2. Re:Or you could attack the heat directly. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      Ummm, sure. If you cover the _entire_ planet with them. That would only cost about $255 trillion going by your numbers.

      Like I said: MUCH cheaper than the current government-based proposals. B-)

      That's for the much more expensive plastic film, with the beads embedded and a vacuum sputtered silver coating on the down side.

      Also: You don't have to cover the ENTIRE planet. Just a fifth of the sunny side of the land masses should do the trick. B-)

      Grains of sand are nearly 2 million times larger than the microbeads you propose (assuming typical sand grains of about a millimeter)j

      Knock an order of magnitude or two off that, then take into account that it's a fractal distribution. (I'd be more concerned that the smaller particles tend to go down and the larger up as the sand is disturbed.)

      I'm not seriously proposing the "glass beads scattered over the desert solution", though. I'm just using it as an example of the kind of lateral thinking that can find far more effective and cheaper solutions than trying to undo, by brute force, all the burning of fossil carbon since the discovery of coal and peat.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    3. Re:Or you could attack the heat directly. by bhiestand · · Score: 2

      I'm not seriously proposing the "glass beads scattered over the desert solution", though. I'm just using it as an example of the kind of lateral thinking that can find far more effective and cheaper solutions than trying to undo, by brute force, all the burning of fossil carbon since the discovery of coal and peat.

      It's also worth noting that those "solutions":

      • - don't help with ocean acidification or any other negative effects of elevated CO2 levels
      • - don't create cleaner new power sources
      • - impose substantial new risks (too much cooling, etc.)
      • - are equally difficult or impossible to undo

      Sure, there are lots of insane and ridiculously expensive things we can do to bring down global average temperatures... but how in the hell can that be a better idea than building cleaner new power sources, increasing energy efficiency, and improving our transportation story?

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    4. Re:Or you could attack the heat directly. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grains of sand are nearly 2 million times larger than the microbeads you propose (assuming typical sand grains of about a millimeter)

      Knock an order of magnitude or two off that, then take into account that it's a fractal distribution.

      You're right, the beads are 2 billions time smaller than the grains of sand, not 2 million. I knocked off three orders of magnitude. Although they're 2 billion times smaller in terms of volume, they have somewhere in the neighborhood of a quarter of a millionth of the surface area. So, with approximately the same density, the microbeads have about 7,000 times the surface area relative to their mass as the grains of sand, which are blown around by the wind already. What you seem to be saying is the idea is even more ridiculous than I was pointing out it was. Particles that small aren't likely to even settle on the ground in the first place. I'm not sure what other forces will act on them (will they tend to flocculate, making coating the ground without a fixative impossible in the first place?), but the wind would definitely carry them away and their ultimate destination would be the bottom of the ocean.

      Anyway, I think possibly people get carried away with the discussion about global warming. Not that it's not a serious problem. It is, but much like every ecological battle, the fight is basically unwinnable, and global warming is just one fight against many that's already been lost. No-one really cares enough to ever actually do anything until it's too late. The simple fact is that nearly everything we do that hits the environment has a long tail that's decades or centuries long. It's basically already too late. Not that the human race is necessarily doomed, but we're definitely right in the middle of a major extinction event.

      I recall taking a geology course where they taught about the various layers of soil that naturally develop and how to identify them and understand their formation. Then they explained that, in this day and age, you're not actually going to find these soil layers pretty much anywhere. Pretty much any area where they would actually form has been dug up by humans. The earth is massive, but so is the human race. We touch the world everywhere and we've overdone it.

      So, even if we could find a way to cool the planet, it would be almost impossible to get it just right and not to simply cause even more bizarre climate problems. And, anyway, it would only solve one small problem among many.

  33. A better first step? by Joviex · · Score: 1

    A better first step would be to turn off the machines that actively add carbon to the air.

    So, you are gonna close your mouth hole? You are a carbon exhaust machine, maroon.

    1. Re:A better first step? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      right after you stop writing stupid shit on your computer

    2. Re:A better first step? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      So, you are gonna close your mouth hole?

      The carbon from my mouth was sequestered by plants less than a few years ago. It's a carbon-neutral cycle. I bet you knew that already.

    3. Re: A better first step? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Not really, no. The plants didn't magic their way into your mouth.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re: A better first step? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you haven't met Kudzu. Fucking stuff magics its way wherever it wants.

  34. Fake news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fake news from the New York Slimes. One of the most leftist leaning newspapers in the country.

  35. How many trees? by XXongo · · Score: 1

    Time to plant trees. Lots of trees.

    You could cover the entire planet surface with trees and it still wouldn't be enough. It's time to start using technology to produce billions of machines that actively and permanently remove carbon from the air.

    Okay. But until we have such machines, the most readily available carbon-sink, cost-effective and easily deployed with unskilled labour, is the tree.

    OK, let's calculate. Here's a source talking about CO2 absorption by trees: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new... , and here's a source saying "A tree can absorb as much as 48 pounds of carbon dioxide per year and can sequester 1 ton of carbon dioxide by the time it reaches 40 years old.": https://projects.ncsu.edu/proj...

    This one says that trees absorb 40% of the 28 billion tons of carbon dioxide emitted per year: World's forests absorb almost 40 per cent of man made CO2

    If we take just that last figure, it's easy: we need to increase the number of trees to 250% of the existing number: plant an additional 150% as many trees as already exist on Earth.

    Google tells me that 30% of the Earth's land area is covered by trees ( ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/0... ), so the quick estimate is that we need to plant enough trees to change this to 75%.

    1. Re: How many trees? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea how much land that encompasses. Besides the fact that humans take up ~50% of the land mass and 1/3 of the water sources for primarily agriculture, you got a deficit of 25% land mass even if you cover every portions of land (e.g. Sahara) with trees.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re: How many trees? by XXongo · · Score: 1

      Do you have any idea how much land that encompasses.

      Well, yes: the calculation pretty clearly shows that this is impractical.

      I happen to be the kind of person who likes to do the calculation and then say it's impractical, rather than just shouting out an opinion without numbers.

      I like numbers.

  36. Re:Blame Trump by SlaveToTheGrind · · Score: 1

    That's the blowback from refusing to even hold hearings on a replacement for Scalia until "the right person" could make that appointment.

    Well, no. Your very own article points out the fundamental difference: "Democrats are requiring that Republicans check all the procedural boxes on most nominees, even those they intend to eventually support ."

    So they're not doing it because they think the appointees shouldn't be confirmed, and they have no expectation that their behavior is going to change the outcome. They're doing it purely to delay.

  37. Re:Oh geeze! There you go again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fucking moderators are such cunts! Modding people down for telling others not to worry about bullshit, and that they should be happy and grateful to be alive.

    Bitch!

  38. Political Science by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 4, Interesting

    AGW was first proposed in 1896, and discredited for the next five decades. During the period 1950-1970 the growing body of evidence was sufficient to reverse the consensus, and since then all of the evidence is pointing towards, "Yes, this phenomenon is real and behaves as we expect." Denying this has become a symbol of ideological purity for a current political party, but there's only so far one can take that tactic.

    The science is really pretty simple. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Originally, we did not think that it could build up in the atmosphere, and we thought that it could not contribute any more to warming than [a] what it was already doing, and [b] what water vapor was doing. After we became better able to observe the upper atmosphere, it was realized that, yes, there was a bit of a gap for CO2 in the H2O spectrum, but more importantly, the CO2-dense part of the atmosphere extends quite a bit higher than the tropopause. But what does that matter if it's already completely opaque at lower CO2 concentrations?

    The effect of a higher partial pressure of CO2 is to push the CO2-dense region of the atmosphere further out into space, increasing the effective 'top-of-atmosphere'. This means that outgoing radiation must take a longer path out of the atmosphere, which effectively traps heat in the lower atmosphere. The "no-feedback forcing" can be relatively straightforwardly calculated to be ~3.7 W/m^2 per doubling of atmospheric CO2, which is equivalent to about 1 degree C of global temperature change.

    Now, that in itself is not a huge deal. The issue is that H2O is a strong greenhouse gas and you may have noticed that there happens to be some rather large reservoirs of that stuff lying around just itching to be part of the atmosphere. We've spent quite a bit of time looking for ways that the H2O feedback won't end up being a huge issue. And I think that I'm maligning anyone to suggest that Dr. Lindzen has had the most credible alternate hypothesis in decades, which sadly he has not been able to find credible evidence for. Some major flaw in the physics of H2O is about all that would save us at this point.

    AGW is a theory that we've been trying to disprove for more than a century. We've known for about 150 years that CO2 was a greenhouse gas and that many human activities release large amounts of this substance, but the initial assumption was that climate was cyclical and that warm years would balance out cold ones. The theories of AGW and climate change have at every step had to fight for acceptance among people who (reasonably enough) were not prepared to believe in them.

    And then in more recent history there is a crowd of conservative voices who have -- being generous -- rejected empiricism in favor of a more rationalist epistemology. Truth is not what you measure -- measurements can be biased, measurers can lie -- truth is what you can prove with logic and reason. It's not like science can measure God, and those scientists are all leftist eggheads anyway. Those elitists don't have a monopoly on truth. Which is all well and good, and certainly an internally consistent philosophy, but if the tragedy of empiricism is never being sure of anything, the problem with non-empirical philosophies is that they are under no obligation to be consistent with observable reality. Politicians at the moment find it useful to take up an anti-empirical position, and rather sensibly they've picked a topic which to date has yet to make much meaningful impact on the lives of most Americans. (I'm from Alaska; the glaciers and permafrost melting has been fairly readily apparent there, since the bulk of these effects has been at the lower alpine/tidewater icefields and the edges of the permafrost fields -- the most visible and accessible areas.)

    At this point the Republicans seem a bit screwed. Their constituency won't allow them to walk this one back -- supporting climate science has been a great way to lose Republican primaries in recent years. Symptoms of warming are (consistent with other conspiracy the

    --
    Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    1. Re:Political Science by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All your ideological considerations aside that, in opinion are largely beside the point, your understanding of how carbon dioxide increases the temperature may be flawed Carbon dioxide absorbs energy in the infra-red. Infra-red energy is heat energy. As such it captures/transforms energy that is re-radiated heat energy ultimately generated by the sun that would otherwise pass back out into outer space into the energy of vibration in the molecule itself. The more vibration the faster it moves and consequently, "hotter" the air temperature. It is this propensity to capture energy and directly convert heat generated by sunlight into energy of vibration that causes the warming. The effect is like a greenhouse in that the molecule is incapable of capturing solar energy on the way in since it enters at much higher wavelengths that are not absorbed by carbon dioxide, but is absorbed/translated to vibration as this solar energy heats the surface of the planet and re-radiates as heat, which the molecule can absorb and retain as energy of vibration.

    2. Re:Political Science by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure why you think this contradicts anything I've said. Are you under the impression that the molecule retains that heat energy for longer than a few milliseconds?

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    3. Re:Political Science by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      The greatest contributor to CO2 is carbon monoxide. Here's how we are doing on that front according to the EPA:

      https://www.epa.gov/air-trends...

      Between 1980 and 2016 we've had an 85% decrease. 85%! These numbers are from the EPA.

      Here's a nice collection of quotes from experts:

      http://www.c3headlines.com/glo...

      This is why some people are skeptical.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    4. Re:Political Science by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      The greatest contributor to CO2 is carbon monoxide.

      For the sake of charity I'm forced to assume that this is not what you meant to say. Carbon monoxide has a negligible influence on climate. It absorbs little energy directly and only persists in the atmosphere for about a month. See the summary here, or the full paper here.[pdf]

      This is why some people are skeptical.

      I hope that by "some people" you are excluding yourself from the group of people who would take a page of celebrity quotations as a credible argument of any sort. "Some people" are "skeptical" because they have no use for objective reality. Mostly they have no idea what they're even saying, and they refuse to expose themselves to enough information about the subject to make a remotely sensible objection. Saying, "AGW isn't happening," is a non-statement. Humans are dumping huge amounts of a greenhouse gas into the atmosphere, which will result in warming. If you're disputing that fact, what part are you disputing? That humans are releasing gigatons of carbon, or that it's a greenhouse gas? Keeping in mind that the heat properties of CO2 can be verified in your basement. What part of thermodynamics is wrong? What term is missing from our radiative transfer equations? What hidden mechanism would transfer excess heat from the Earth? It's like saying that gravity is wrong -- it's not a claim in itself, and it's not to say that you're automatically a crackpot, but you do need to account for a couple contrary observations in your theory, and your explanation should probably be better than "I dunno, but it's still wrong!"

      Personally, I maintain some hope that AGW will turn out to be milder than anticipated. The 3.7 W/m^2 is a pretty hard lower bound due to thermodynamics, but the H2O feedbacks allow for a fairly wide range of scenarios. It would be nice if Dr. Lindzen's Iris hypothesis were credible. As things are, however, there's just not a lot of room for alternate theories. Any unknown effects would have to be extremely large to offset the warming signal, and extremely subtle to not have been noticed to date in any of the atmospheres that we have studied. Given that our atmospheric physics equations describe extraterrestrial atmospheres well, including the atmosphere of the Sun, the amount of special pleading that would be required seems effectively infinite.

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    5. Re:Political Science by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      The point of the CO graph is to show the incredible progress that's been made since the Environmental Movement started - a fact that's almost always omitted from any news story. The majority of quotes in the other article are from Environmental Scientists and the like, not celebrities.

      IMHO the Climate Change Industry has done far, far more damage to the Earth's Climate than any polluter. Had they not wildly exaggerated their claims, had they not enlisted the elites to their climate conferences in private jets and limos, had they not turned the whole thing into a money making project for many of the participants, had they not made dire predictions of doom year after year, had they not turned environmentalism into some kind of religion where any discussion is treated as heresy, had they not fudged the fucking data to keep the grant money coming.... Had all that money been spent on true Environmental Cleanup and technology... We as a species would be one hell of a lot better off. This article is yet another chapter in the Climate Change Industry shooting itself in the foot, and it makes me very sad.

      But I can tell from your response I am wasting my breath. Because I don't parrot the Climate Change talking points I am obviously the enemy and therefore need to be labeled as ignorant, racist, or worse. Which is also a huge part of the problem, and it does insurmountable damage to Climate Science as well.

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
    6. Re:Political Science by Tenebrousedge · · Score: 1

      It's like you saw those characterizations as a challenge to live out. I admit, it's amusing.

      Because I don't parrot the Climate Change talking points I am obviously the enemy and therefore need to be labeled as ignorant, racist, or worse.

      The first symptom of emotional reasoning is projection, it seems. I would never think of you as an enemy; that would imply that I took you seriously. Your introduction of the topic of racism is suggestive, but not interesting. If you want to take on some labels voluntarily then that would seem like a personal issue.

      The point of the CO graph is to show the incredible progress that's been made since the Environmental Movement started

      I'm not sure how you can confuse this for "incredible progress", and I don't think that you quite understand the distinction between environmental activists and climate scientists. It's not some sense of stewardship that is driving the IPCC, it's the straightforward application of the known physics of the carbon dioxide molecule. Carbon monoxide is only a serious environmental concern by the stretch of a desperate imagination.

      There seems to be a popular delusion among conservatives that climate science begins and ends with An Inconvenient Truth, probably because no stretch of the imagination will encompass a political conspiracy of scientists lasting for more than ten decades. In this way you can dismiss uncontroversial facts as "talking points". It's not that you're not parroting talking points, however: you haven't even identified what points you might or might not be repeating. I'm not convinced you have any idea what you even believe about the physics. As long as these scientists are wrong you don't have to think about that, right?

      --
      Those who advocate genocide deserve every protection afforded by law, and none afforded by common human decency.
    7. Re:Political Science by MooseMiester · · Score: 1

      Being arrogant and condescending - and then insinuating I'm deluded - is the mark of youth. You'll grow out of it. You impressed me by not calling me a racist or a Nazi.

      I suggest you re-read the quotes and try to engage in critical thinking, rather than denigrating everyone who disagrees with you. Start with "We're running out of time"

      --
      Murphy was an optimist
  39. Proof of warning: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is your actual proof:
    Ice core cample results
    Here, too

  40. Re:How did the plants sink into the permafrost? by HiThere · · Score: 1

    IIUC, Antarctica *HAS* been relatively stable in it's position for an extremely long time. Back through the Jurassic. I also doubt that the North American plate has crossed the equator twice...unless you mean a projection from it crossed the equator and then retreated. The major continental drift has been away from what is now the central Atlantic ocean, though there was certainly a lot of rotational movement as well, and India moved quite rapidly away from Africa and is now ploughing into Asia.

    It *is* true that Africa and Australia were once (LONG ago) connected via Antarctica, and that Antarctica was relatively warm at that time. (Temperate forest.) But the days in that forest were about 6 months long, so it was in the same position. I presume that it was warmed by ocean currents the same way Iceland, Ireland, and the west coast of North America are.

    But the continental drift happens on a different time scale that the growth of vegetation in the permafrost area. What probably happened (this is a guess) was that the position of Greenland shifted from an earlier position in which the Gulf Stream was directed all the way up into the Arctic Ocean, causing the pole to be a lot warmer. Slowly Greenland drifted to it's current position where the channel up past Hudson's Bay is too narrow to allow significant flow (and then it iced up which really stopped things). This caused the Arctic Ocean to freeze. The problem with this is there are some indications that at least in some areas the freeze happened quite rapidly, so some details are clearly missing or wrong.

      ---- separator ---- line ---- encountered ---- lameness ---- filter ----
    The following part is a guess. Don't believe it, but take it seriously.

    But note that in the current permafrost area the vegetation that ended up under the permafrost was annuals rather than perennials (like trees), so imagine that for a long time it was an area that was swampy during the summer and frozen during the winter, and chilly all the way to the bottom of the bog. In fact a good model would probably be the colder Irish peat bogs. Then it really froze, and the decomposition slowed to a crawl. But this allowed more oxygen to diffuse into the mess, because now life processes were too slow to use it up. So when it melts not ALL the decomposition will be anaerobic. This will be important because aerobic processes are more energetically efficient, but it will be limited, because not that much oxygen is around. This means a rapid bloom followed be a slow continuation.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  41. A simpler solution... by denzacar · · Score: 0

    Just apply the Sarah Palin caribou conservation method to carbon sequestering, but with republicans instead of wolves.
    Hunt them down with high-powered rifles from helicopters.
    You know? The Alaskan way.

    The best part is there'd be no opposition from wildlife or animal protection groups.
    Actually, they'd probably join the hunt and feel the joy of killing for the first time.

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
  42. I actually like it warm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And there's nothing wrong with more fresh water.

    Hey, if Al Gore's not concerned, we shouldn't be. He's buying up beachfront property and producing lots of CO2 emissions.

  43. But at least solar panels won't warm the globe... by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    By the way: One of my concerns about the increased use of solar panels for power is that they absorb far more sunlight than the surfaces they shade - like nearly all of it, when much might have been reflected back to space. All of it goes to heat - about a fifth when the power is used (if the panels are very efficient), the rest right there at the panel as various losses.

    But it turns out that this stuff re-radiates to space roughly as much energy as the panel absorbs. It also cools the panel, which makes it more efficient. And it's cheap enough that coating the panel adds more power-in-the-wires per buck than building the uncoated panel, so it will be a price-performance improvement that is likely to actually be deployed. Much better.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  44. appropos of nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    im installing my coal fired air conditioning system this month.

  45. Re:Blame Trump by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

    First, I didn't link any article (I responded to someone who did), and second, I don't think it is at all unreasonable to demand a full work-up on every nominee when it has been amply demonstrated that Trump sometimes (often?) makes picks based on loyalty and nepotism rather than qualifications. This should surprise nobody, it's how he got where he is.

    --
    How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  46. Re:Time for Massive Wind Investment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Subsidies are probably not only not necessary but perhaps even counter productive. What we need is more people to recognize that without question wind is the easiest and cheapest solution, particularly if the rotors are placed off shore. If there is more recognition then it will become obvious to all that investments in wind power will be very good investments going forward, particularly relative to fossil fuels. With more recognition comes more investment and with more investment comes every falling prices, with increasing profits coming from economies of scale. What people need to recognize are three things:

    1) wind will ultimately displace fossil fuels because of the economics, even without subsidies and even with the present massive subsidies for fossil fuels

    2) those who are first to invest in wind power will become the new energy barons and all those profits that are now flowing into the hands of fossil fuel investors will soon be flowing into the hands of wind power investors instead.

    3) unless solar or tidal technologies overtake wind in the market based on price, or if we simply continue to impose fossil fuels based on political considerations as the Trump administration is trying to do to everyone's detriment, humans won't be able to live on planet Earth in a few hundred years as temperatures will simply become too high for human life.

  47. 300 year old news by xtronics · · Score: 0

    It has been melting ever sense the end of the little ice age -- I'm so scared.

  48. Re:How did the plants sink into the permafrost? by Alypius · · Score: 1

    Really? This is modded down?

  49. Bla bla bla by p51d007 · · Score: 0

    The earth warms, the earth cools...and we aren't "warming up" but are heading to a COOLING DOWN period. Just ask any ham radio operator how the bands have sucked the last year. Sunspots are void, CME's are low, if at all. We ended the modern maximum around 2008-09. It's called A CYCLE and has nothing to do with man. One good burp from a stupid volcano throws more so called greenhouse gas in the air than Algore or Leo deCRAPrio can flying all over the place warning us that we are all going to die unless we change OUR lifestyle (but not theirs of course).

  50. So...riddle me this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If all these things died and got frozen over quickly enough not
    to decompose...doesn't that mean the permafrost wasn't always there? And when it did come on, it came on fast?

  51. It's called... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's called "Thaw Season" as in, it is something that occurs "annually". The fires in BC are not helping: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1099-1530(199701)8:1%3C45::AID-PPP240%3E3.0.CO;2-K/abstract

  52. Breitbart First!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "... I read Breitbart first..."

    Well there's your problem! Unless you are a jokester looking for laughs, in which case I salute you.