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Wisconsin State Legislature Signs Off On $3 Billion Foxconn Incentive Package (venturebeat.com)
On Thursday, legislators in the state of Wisconsin approved a nearly $3 billion incentive package for the Taiwanese electronics manufacturer, Foxconn, in exchange for it investing approximately $10 billion in the state and building a factory that could employ up to 13,000 workers. The legislation is now headed to Republican Governor Scott Walker's desk, where he is expected to give it his seal of approval. VentureBeat reports: The bill passed the Wisconsin State Assembly on a 64-31 vote, after previously passing the state senate on a 20-13 vote. The move signals the start of what will likely be an important experiment in just how much generous incentive packages can do to help create new tech hubs. Governor Walker has said that the Foxconn factory â" the company's first in the United States -- will help transform Wisconsin into "Wisconn Valley." While on a trade mission this week to Japan and South Korea, Governor Walker told reporters that many of the companies he met with on the trip were already "every interested in how they could come to Wisconsin and partner for that new ecosystem." However, there are still a few details that need to be finalized before Foxconn can start breaking ground -- most notably, where the company will build the factory. The factory was set to be built in either Kenosha or Racine County, Wisconsin, before Kenosha dropped out of the running earlier this week.
...now it's 13K. the trend is not your friend.
Foxconn is a really great place to work, so I hear.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Wisconsin has a worse debt-to-GDP ratio than California.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Locating workers close to the ginseng farm
but I think they'll be lucky to get 1/4 of the promised jobs after handing over lots of money. Unfortunately for the Wisconsin taxpayers, FoxConn has a pi$$ poor record on this subject.
Scott Walker doesn't want pay teachers a living wage vs. subsidizing a company that "may" create 13,000 jobs. Each job better pay about $250K for this to even remotely make sense. Who voted for this dick?
Cant wait for jobs that robots should be doing, but instead we're overpaying humans to do them.
I get the Walker Trump non-union nature of the deal means we have to discuss politics... but is this a trend or will it become a trend? If all the major suppliers of electrical components and manufacturing equipment/maintenance of that equipment have a "working" location in the central US does that mean that a lot of other factories like this become viable in the US? I wonder about how this is related to robotics and advanced manufacturing and if the third world cheap labor advantage is rapidly being plowed under by the first world precision and automation and support functions? I don't see a reason to doubt Foxconns word on this, they've seen this trend if needing higher skilled manufacturers and locations with stable power grids, advanced support functions (robotics experts and engineers), and possibly distribution advantages for awhile and Some deals didn't work out. As far as "this is the tax hating sellout turning the state over to Foxconn". Those jobs are needed. A lot of secondary effects, like a huge number of landowners who just became wealthy, are occurring and will continue to occur.
This is for building a factory, and much like pipeline deals, after it's built the number of jobs will be much less. You can't manufacture and assemble in the USA without it being automated, these are mostly robot jobs. I doubt they will reach thier full subsidy long term, it's more likely they will employ management, a handful of engineers and some machine/assembly robot techs and that's it. The manufacturing jobs aren't coming back.
if we had UBI. By not having UBI, we're forcing them to work which is slavery.
many of the companies he met with on the trip were already "every interested in how they could come to Wisconsin and partner for that new ecosystem."
many of the companies he met with on the trip were already "very interested in how they could come to Wisconsin and be given free money."
FTFHim
How would a single factory would "transform Wisconsin into "Wisconn Valley.""?
I dunno if Walker understands this, but Foxconn is not moving it's entire operation there. This is basically taxpayer money wasted on a huge incentive package to end up with a factory that, sure, will give some people jobs, but that is not in any way dissimilar to factories in countries like Brazil, Hungary, Slovakia, Turkey, Czech Republic, India, Malaysia or Mexico.
All of those having currency exchange and cheaper labor advantages which are being counter balanced by the incentive package there. My bet would be that operations will last as long as the subsidy keeps going, if the factory operations are profitable that is.
Oh, and juuust so people know, Foxconn fired 60,000 employees last year to replace them with automation.
It's not an innovation or development hub, just an assembly factory. And if it's anything like the factories in these other countries, it'll be importing parts from China to be assembled. I don't know if many people realize this, but all companies that are in the forefront of TV panel technology these days are located solely in Asia, particularly South Korea, China, Taiwan and Japan. See that I'm not talking about TV brands, but the brands behind TV panels... big brands that everyone knows: LG, Samsung, Sharp. Names people might not have heard about: Chi Mei Optoelectronics, AU Optronics, Chunghwa Picture Tubes, Wistron Optronics, Delta Group, TPV Technology. Those are all, without exception, asian companies that dominate the tv panel technology R&D. Most tech companies around TV panel tech that were american either closed down, or got bought by chinese investment groups.
Wisconsin lawmakers sue, claiming Foxconn did not hold up incentive package deal from 3 yeas ago...
Sports teams get billions for stadiums while employing a couple dozen not including coaches and players who are contractors and a couple hundred event staff.
Seems that this may not be so bad. Look at the money being pissed away on the Milwaukee Bucks right now.
...investing approximately $10 billion in the state and building a factory that could employ up to 13,000 workers. ...
What is the timeline for the $10 billion to be invested? Surely, a sum that large has some planning behind it. How soon will it be before the entire $10 billion is invested? Also, what is the timeline for the ramp-up to 13,000 new employees?
.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view...
...Let's clarify this: Foxconn promised to invest $10 billion and create 3,000 jobs initially, but those numbers are squishy. As Bloomberg Businessweek observed:
Just this past year, Foxconn is reported to have pledged investments of $5 billion in India; $3.65 billion in Kunshan, China; and $8.8 billion in Guangzhou. It's too early to know if those sums will ever be spent, but including Wisconsin, the tally now stands at $27.5 billion of commitments. That's more than Hon Hai (the company's publicly traded flagship) has spent in the last 23 years.
Those promises are mostly that and little more. At best, this is a wildly optimistic hope for new jobs in an era when U.S. manufacturing employment been in long-term decline. At worse, it is a giant grift, a taxpayer-funded photo op that will yield little in terms of job gains, other than a few hundred heavily subsidized positions....
us labor laws are better then china and living on site will = free room and board + min wage.
Will they come from Wisconsin residents, from other states or from China? My guess is the high paying manager jobs will be from China and the minimum wage jobs will be from other places and not out of work coal miners from West Virginia and Kentucky.
3 Billion would give 13,000 people $30k a year for 8 years.
Let's assume, for the moment, that the politicians' estimators are correct, and that:
- 13,000 workers employed for 1 year to build the factory
- 3,000 workers employed for 15 years working at the factory
- 22,000 additional workers spawned by the need for suppliers etc, over those 15 years
That gives 388,000 worker-years supported by doing this deal, for which was paid $2.85 billion in tax credits over the 15 years.
Doing the math, that is $7,345 in subsidies paid by the government, per job per year.
If these figures are believable, then it possibly is not a horrible deal. *But* as with everything, the biggest pitfall is not in the decimal place of how many workers exactly, but in the assumptions about whether those additional workers materialize, whether Foxconn sources its stuff from local / surrounding vendors vs. Mexico, and most of all, whether in 8-10 years the market for LCD screens changes and Foxconn picks up and leaves.
Does the LCD screen market now look like it did 8-10 years ago? Should we expect that it will 8-10 years from *now* and that the deal will still be something Foxconn wants to stick to?
I have a feeling that Republican lawmakers are not quite as sharp as the economists that Foxconn, a $135B company, has on its staff to figure out whether they're getting the better end of the deal...
US labor laws are often first-line enforced by state-level boards of labor, and there are large gaps in federal law that not all states make up. A friend of mine was having issues with an employer not allowing breaks, but it turns out that breaks are not federally mandated, nor are they mandated by this particular state either. We ended up having to take a different tack (turns out the boss had two businesses would avoid paying employees time-and-a-half overtime by switching which company they worked for during the week, this got them slammed with a requirement to pay all that OT plus some heavy fines from the state) but there's no guarantee that states will do their job to enforce workplace protections or to mandate them in the first place. Given what Wisconsin has been up to lately I would be surprised if they did enforce them adequately.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
What's Walker's share and where are they hiding it for him? Watch this guy and his grandchildren in coming years to find out.
Terry Conn is FoxConn's CEO. Not a year ago, he wrote a letter to the orangerie in chief. Read it and weep:
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2016-12-07/dear-mr-trump-about-those-u-s-iphones
This is what we're going to get instead of UBI: govt. handouts to corporations that trickle down to makework jobs. It'll be even more expensive than an actual UBI, too. Thanks, plutocrats!
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
The difference is how many they'll directly hire vs indirect effects.
A fast food place might serve 300 people at lunch. If 13,000 Foxconn employees eat burgers, they'll need 43 new fast food places to serve them. If a dozen people are working at each fast food place, that's 520 jobs making lunch for Foxconn employees. Obviously they don't all go to a fast food place every day, but that's the concept. Not just fast food either, of course, some will go to Olive Garden for lunch. On most days, there will be several non-Foxconn employees working at Foxconn's building - electricians, security guards, HVAC people, fire alarm people, somebody checking the fire extinguishers ...
If they each stop at an area gas station once a week, that's 1,800 paying customers a day at gas stations. Which will require 20 new gas stations employing 100 people or whatever. Go through that for all the different things 13,000 people buy in a week.
Then realize that the gas station employees need lunch, and the fast food employees need gas. The employees of the new bank branch need lunch, as do the tradesmen who don't work for Foxconn, but handle Foxconn's needs for air conditioning, electrical work, etc. So there are more restaurants and gas stations needed, etc.
We're seeing these effects in the area where I live. Toyota moved here and the local businesses hired more people - the Toyota employees need to have their oil changed, so the quick line place hired more people. 13,000 Toyota employees buy 3,000 pairs of glasses every year, or so there's another job or two providing eyeglasses to Toyota employees. Nearly every company in the vicinity is hiring more people, and new businesses are opening around the Toyota campus. The three to one ratio implied by the two stories is about right. STEM jobs typically generate about 4.2 other jobs indirectly. So three "created" (spurred) for each Foxconn job is a reasonable number.
Of course, they're looking for similar deals where they get paid to move in.
Assuming the $3bn is a one-off incentive (i.e. not spread out over multiple years)
Population of Wisconsin: 5,778,708 (2016 est.) - Wikipedia
Cost per resident: $519
Median household income: $42,041 (2009-2013) - Wikipedia
So it's roughly a 1.2% one-off tax on the median earner.
I don't know how this offsets against the projected benefits.
Your friend didn't work in Eden Prairie Minnesota did they?
If it's the same place I'm thinking of the owner also got hit with an osha suit because he turned the heat off in the building at night and expected people to work with no heat or AC until he got in the next morning and turned it back on, also they were forced by building codes to have hot water in the building...
This is so full of weasel words I don't know where to begin. Wisconsin residents are being completely fleeced. They're going to pony up 3 billion dollars for what will probably amount to a couple thousand low-wage robot babysitting jobs that never ever repay that "investment."
While sweetener deals with states not new, The WI / FoxConn deal one of the largest and since recent will serve as a comparable much like the NFL & NBA stadium subsidies. Amazon now shopping for a new location. Will be interesting to see who else follows. The bankers and consultants will likely be sharpening their presentations to try and drum up some new business.
I would be surprised if the number of total employees is over 1,000.
The line is going to be almost fully automated. They'll just need maintenance , admin, security , some managers and some others for the plant. Even if they are including a new Starbucks and other low paying retail establishments that open near by to serve the workers, I still don't see it going over a 1,000.
See, the public hears "factory" they have images from the old days where you'd have thousands showing up at the whistle to clock in - for each shift.
Those days are LONG gone.
It's the same with Amazon and their HQ that will employ 50,000 people. Really? I'd really like to see that.
These tax deals are as big a scam as the deals for the professional sports team stadiums.
Shut up Trump supporter! I can't read your racist thoughts any longer.
Can we have universal healthcare in this country? Nope, because the Repug scream "SOCIALISM!!!!".... But $3 billions to court a company, and a foreign one on top of that, somehow that's not socialism and that's okay....
That seems to suggest people are being pulled from nowhere to fill these needs. Just say the factory does employ 13,000 people (it won't but anyway), the majority of them are going to live in the area anyway, they'll need a bit more gas if they drive but not 20 new stations just for them. Same with lunch, 13,000 people aren't going to pile out at once to eat in 43 eateries that ring the factory I guess. That also seems to suggest all 13k people will be there everyday and will all have the same needs. A guy who walks to work with a packed lunch and already has a bank account is going to need none of that. A guy who gets a lift and eats in the factory canteen also isn't. I also don't think foxconn will be paying enough to create 13,000 people with loads of disposable income either.
Yeah taking a bunch of people who are unemployed originally and giving them jobs is going to increase business in an area but nearly to the degree you suggest, bus companies would probably be a winner though. Not to mention anyone changing jobs or moving in from another area is just moving their needs from one place to another.
Wanna buy a shirt?
https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
Or I'll be very mad!
I tend to rant.
There is a reason slavery was so successful for so long.
http://www.wral.com/business/s...
--WooooHoooo--
High-Rise?
What happened to "Government Shouldn't Pick Winners and Losers"? Worse yet, it's not even an American company!
There seems to be serious hypocrisy going on within the Republican party.
Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
The state is giving tax incentives. They're not actually paying the company anything. How hard is that to understand?
Here's what Wisconsin makes if Foxconn doesn't build there: $0
Here's what Wisconsin makes if Foxconn builds: Income tax, sales tax, etc.
Ultimately I predict this will be a loser of a deal. They'll build this plant, it'll be massively automated and employ few people and be massively productive.
Let's be frank here... 3 Billion dollars is A LOT of money in Wisconsin terms. This will be a major hit to the states tax revenues.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
On glassdoor, if you filter to US only, the rating drops from 2.6 to 2.5. I've heard bad things about the site in Indiana.
https://www.glassdoor.com/Revi...
Cheap storage VM.
So is it still bad if someone from a blue state moves to get the job? It's still a job in the US instead of outsourced to Asia. It's still a reduction in pollution from shipping less shit across the ocean.
Scott Walker doesn't want pay teachers a living wage
The average teacher salary in Wisconsin is $53k. That is above the average salary/wage for Wisconsin, and certainly enough to live on.
Without knowing more about the statistical distribution, this is a somewhat misleading statement due to the way averages work. Is the starting salary for new teachers $20k, but there's enough teachers with seniority making $80k to shift the average? Is that average calculated only with teachers in classrooms, or does that include principals and other administrators?
My understanding is that many states currently facing a budget crisis are attacking our new teachers. Basically, they can't cut pensions of current retirees or near-retirees, partly due to contractual reasons and partly due to not wanting to anger older voters. So they're instead negotiating contracts for new teachers at low pay, low benefits, drastically reduced (if existent at all) pensions. It is completely logical to say that Walker and GOP don't want to pay a living wage (to new teachers) while still maintaining contractually-obligated good pay and benefits to senior teaching staff, there is no contradiction. You have to know the details and the distribution.
I grew up in a mining town. The general rule of thumb was that for every job directly created by the mines, it indirectly created 3 more jobs in the community. A factory town would probably be the same.
I realize that the post was probably in jest and poking fun, but it is an extremely accurate portrayal of a modern Liberal response.
Governor Walker told reporters that many of the companies he met with on the trip were already "every interested in how they could come to Wisconsin and partner for that new ecosystem."
Well, duh! What company wouldn't be interested in seeing if they can get their hands on large amounts of free money?
That seems to suggest people are being pulled from nowhere to fill these needs.
Some will change jobs in WI, leaving their old jobs open for a previously unemployed worker.
Some will come off unemployment/welfare in WI and take a job.
Still others may come from out of state - and take a job.
At the end of the day 13,000 workers will be added to the WI workforce, and some number of previously unemployed workers will come of star/federal assistance programs.
Ken
better THAN China
There is no need to guess about something that has already happened - thousands of times. This has been studied to death. A new large employer does in fact spur 3 to 4 times as many jobs indirectly as the the number they hire directly.
> already has a bank account is going to need none of that.
People actually do like to have a bank branch near where they work. Whether they open a new account or use an existing account, people with jobs do more banking than people without jobs.
> A guy who gets a lift and eats in the factory canteen also isn't.
The cafeteria is normally a contract operation, staffed by employees of the food service company. The people working to feed the Foxconn employees wouldn't typically be employees of Foxconn, so they wouldn'tâ be counted in the 13,000 number. They would be counted in the 50,000. Guess what - the guy who gets a lift - his ride is just as likely to need gas or a cup of coffee as the Foxconn employees are. Actually MORE likely since there are two people in the car - they are nearly twice as likely to want something from the gas station, not less likely.
Seriously this is not the first large employer to open up. It happens all the time, and it's been extensively studied, so you can very easily find some of the thousand or more studies on the matter. Or, just go drive by where a large employer has recently add a bunch of jobs near you. In all likelihood you'll see a new shopping center very nearby, with a hair cut place such as Great Clips, restaurants, a dentist, a gas station, etc,. Things people use on their lunch break, and before and after work. You can see them for yourself if you don't want to believe any of the studies done after new employees have come in.
> Not to mention anyone changing jobs
Anyone who leaves their existing job is going to leave a new job opening behind, so that's still an open job.
What it comes down to is how many jobs there are that export something from the community. Foxconn jobs are creating something that will be sold outside of the local community, bringing in cash from outside. Each export job creates three to four local jobs.
Basically, when someone in Colorado or wherever buys an iPad, some of that money ends up paying salaries of Foxconn employees. They spend a large portion that money locally, buying haircuts, burgers, gas, whatever. The hair dresser then spends the money again, much of it locally. The money from outside keeps circulating around the local community until people send it off to Amazon or wherever that's not local.
That's what makes it funny.