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Kids Praised for Being Smart are More Likely to Cheat (ucsd.edu)
An anonymous reader quotes the University of California:
An international team of researchers reports that when children are praised for being smart not only are they quicker to give up in the face of obstacles, they are also more likely to be dishonest and cheat. Kids as young as age 3 appear to behave differently when told "You are so smart" vs. "You did very well this time"...
The research builds on well-known work by Stanford's Carol Dweck, author of "Mindset," who has shown that praising a child's innate ability instead of the child's effort or a specific behavior has the unintended consequence of reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks... In another study, published recently in Developmental Science, the same co-authors show that the consequences are similar even when children are not directly praised for their smarts but are merely told that they have a reputation for being smart.
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
The research builds on well-known work by Stanford's Carol Dweck, author of "Mindset," who has shown that praising a child's innate ability instead of the child's effort or a specific behavior has the unintended consequence of reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks... In another study, published recently in Developmental Science, the same co-authors show that the consequences are similar even when children are not directly praised for their smarts but are merely told that they have a reputation for being smart.
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
same thing
reducing their motivation to learn and their ability to deal with setbacks
we got a bunch of these kids at the office.
lucm, indeed.
... it's that they're smart enough to know that repetitive memorization and standardized test taking are meaningless. Schools are run like businesses rather than institutes of learning and these smart young people are just preparing to bullshit their way through some meaningless job for even less meaningful bosses. Mastering the art of cheating is one of the top tier skills anyone can master. Kudos to them!
who are actually smart?
All the Indian jokes. Yeah, yeah, so we cheat. BIG WHOOP! You wanna fight about it!
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
The reason why my mom stop paying me for every ace I got on a test or exam in school: she wanted me stop being lazy and start studying so she proposed to pay me for every aced test or exam I delivered. Went from mediocre/average student to top mark and pretty much aced every test for a year... the year after my mom dropped it, I was acing every single test for every single class (even gym class!) but I was still being lazy and not picking a book to study anyway.
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
Then again, another study found that paying kids to get good grades doesn't work very well, but paying them to do their homework does.
Paying second graders to read books seemed particularly promising — it boosted kids' reading comprehension, relative to kids who did not receive incentive payments. There was still a significant improvement a year after the researchers stopped paying the kids.
This is exactly why I cheat. I feel the need to live up to my reputation. My mother was a teacher at my high school so I was known by other teachers as being a smart kid. I didn't really give a shit about any of the material but I had to live up to my reputation of making good grades. I probably cheated on every test in high school.
Judging by his ability to lie and deny reality, I would say he was told not only he was smart but that he was a genius... a lot!
And if you're a teenager reading this, don't do it to yourself!
Here's what can happen:
You get told you're smart and start to build your self-worth and identity around that.
You avoid practicing activities that you aren't naturally good at, because it threatens your misguided self-image.
You start assuming you just know the answers without checking them against reality, missing valuable feedback on "smart" activities that would improve you.
If you go to university, you waste time with "Ps make degrees" (passes make degrees if the idiom isn't familiar) thinking, and waste that precious time that you could be learning coasting along on being "smart".
You go out into a world full mostly of older people who are more talented than you in every dimension. Some of them were "smarter" than you even before gaining decades of experience. Gasp!
Many of your peers who aren't as "smart" as you go on to be highly happy and successful in what they are good at by working at it. Egad!
Some of your peers who weren't as "smart" as you studied and/or worked hard and _became_ "smarter" than you in the process. Zounds!
You belatedly, as an adult, realise that you need a remedial class in putting effort in instead of coasting along on being naturally "smart", and have the added challenge of dealing with the insecurity you built up through years of having your inappropriately-defined self-worth eroded.
The sooner you realise that "smart" isn't worth shit if you don't constantly work at self improvement, the better off you'll be.
Feel free to share this with anyone you think is on a dangerous path due to being "smart".
for 15 years.
"That's because I'm smart".
being smart isn't cool. And for God's sake totally ignore your civics class, leave government to the ruling class.
How about kids asked to cheat? Do they get more praise? You've got to do the reverse to check for dependence against correlation!
Did you really just say "libtard"? Are you 5 years old?
How ever did the human race manage to learn anything before the advent of the Psychologist to tell the rest of us how shitty of a job we're doing raising our kids?
I've quite frequently been told I was smart, and or a "god send", etc.
Never had a problem with cheating. I was home schooled, so never had a problem with too many tests.
Tests were rare, so I bounced back and forth between loving tests, and fearing the long-term consequences of failure.
I loved when I got answers wrong on a test, because that marked something To focus on and learn better. A test passed too easily is a tough one to study for after passing it.
Then again, many times when I got answers wrong it was also an opportunity to prove the book was wrong and not me, so there is that,...
I don't know about money but personal pan pizzas got me reading a hell of a lot in the lower grades.
Over time, as I got better at various activities, I slowly realized the key to being the best. This applies to anything and anyone. Winning only means that that your competition wasn't up to snuff.
Want to know how to be the best dancer in the room? Take one hour long class and hang out with people that haven't.
How to be the best educated in the room? Teach elementary school.
It took me a while to realize this. At first I thought it was depressing. But over time I realized it is merely what it means to be the best. It's natural and you can't stop it, unless you are the G.O.A.T (Rest in Peace, Muhammand Ali).
When the second best baseball player in the world is winning, it means the very best is not on the field. When the Mayor is the most important person in the room, he wasn't invited to the Governor's Ball. When the Governor is the most important person in the room you know he's not in the White House.
Winning isn't important. Trying your very best and demonstrating real skill is what's important.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
the motivation ain't because your told your smart (or not). its the quality of the schooling and the availability of the resources, commensurate to your intelligence and knowledge base.
if you stick a smart kid, whose already learned trig/calc, in a remedial, low-quality class, he's not going to perform. its because hes bored senseless.
the solution isn't to tell your kid he's dumb. the solution, is to get your kid into a class that actually matches his learning level/speed.
When you were born on third base and think you hit a home run.
https://youtu.be/Kn283OjPb1g
You are welcome on my lawn.
Note this study is coming out of Stanford. They know all about "smart" people who got where they are by cheating.
YES
I've been praised for being smart my whole life and in the few situations where I was in a position in an exam in which I was privy to some of the answers, I intentionally threw those answers as to not interfere with my test score.
I can't say I've ever cheated on a test.
50% of people have below average intelligence, most people are dumb and telling them they are smart gets us Trumpeters and Hillary fanatics, death is the only real out of this situation, please Mr. President PRESS THE BUTTON
I remember an article I can't find the link to now which clearly said that praising kids for what they are good at will cause them to avoid working on what they find difficult.
I have raised my kids based almost entirely on that. I tell them regularly, I of course am proud of you for doing what you find interesting well. But a true measure of a person is how they perform on tasks they either find difficult or boring. As a result, both my kids get nearly top grades in all topics, not just their areas of interest. I praise them far more for nailing the boring things while fostering their interests and skills in the fun things as their reward.
Calling kids smart is awesome. It is very positive and should always be done. But telling them that smart is smart but intelligentlce takes work. Learn to solve problems which aren't obvious or interesting.
In the US, the phrase is "C's earn degrees."
Maybe the study is legitimate, but it feels a lot like what it says in the title. We should all be average, grey, boring, conforming individuals, and being smart is something you just shouldn't talk about because that is bad.
Allow me to disagree. Being smart is good. And why shouldn't you praise kids for something they do well? We do it in every other aspect of their existence, after all... But only being smart is ruled out as something you shouldn't discuss - as if it were something to be ashamed of.
So it seems that its the expectations that are the problem, not the praise. It is possible to tell your kids they are smart (if they are - otherwise its clearly raising expectations) without it coming with stupid expectations.
In fact it sounds like the problem is the pushy parents, and I can't say I'm surprised about that.
Did you even read the linked article?
They split the children in three groups, in one group they were praised for being smart, in the next they were praised for the performance and in the last there was no praise at all.
Those who were praised for being smart were more often observed (by hidden camera) to cheat than the others.
How does your theory account for that?
"By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing... kill yourself." -- Bill Hicks
Studies praised for being groundbreaking are more likely to be fraudulent, or at least hyped out of all proportion to their actual rigor and analytical strength.
I mean I'm really intelligent. I cheat bigly, and the teacher's didn't care. I just grab the school mistress's pussy. Daddy's smart, he pays them off
Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
So does that mean they cheat more? Seems like a logical question to ask...
Allow me to disagree. Being smart is good. And why shouldn't you praise kids for something they do well? We do it in every other aspect of their existence, after all...
The answer is simple if you want to talk in generalizations. Obviously specific individuals may respond uniquely to any given circumstance. It's ok to praise but you can overdo it. The trick is finding the happy medium where you are praising enough to generate confidence but not enough so that they lose drive or behave badly. If someone is constantly telling you you are crap, most children are eventually going to internalize that and believe it to some degree. (certain religions thrive on taking advantage of this fact - see "original sin") Conversely, if you are constantly praising there is a strong tendency to believe that they are $diety's gift and to stop trying so hard. People need a certain amount of challenge and stress to thrive. Not too much and not too little. Finding that appropriate amount of praise versus challenge is not always easy to do.
There is nothing wrong with praise for being smart per-se but the amount can matter. But bear in mind that its a little like praising someone for being beautiful. It is largely genetic and isn't really something they have control over. People don't chose to be smart or dumb. They don't choose to be beautiful or ugly. So praising someone routinely for something they didn't choose can be unhelpful in many circumstances. It's ok to praise to help them understand and take full advantage of their gifts but don't overdo it.
These are the kids of black indian liars only.
Confirmed, the user known as Anonymous Coward here on Slashdot is a five year old. I said it myself.
Even if you win the rat race, you are still a rat.
This is what truly smart people understand and why so many of them opt-out of the traditional "success" highway.
It's actually parents who lie to their kids and tell them their smarter than they are are more likely to turn kids into cheaters. The actual smart ones won't cheat because they won't have to. The rest are just being lied to.
at least one generation of students!
Praise kids for being hard-working rather than smart.
They gave two groups the same easy puzzle. After finishing, half were praised for being smart, the other half for working hard.
When then given a much harder puzzle, kids praised as smart gave up sooner than did those praised as hard workers.
It is no surprise such might attempt to cheat to maintain their official visage.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Cheating, if you don't get caught, is called foresight.
Kids as young as age 3 appear to behave differently when told "You are so smart" vs. "You did very well this time"...
I've read that the current wisdom is that you should praise kids for their effort rather than success. That is, you shouldn't say, "I'm proud of you because you're smart," or "I'm proud of you because you did well this time," but instead "I'm proud of you because I know how hard you tried. You really worked hard on that."
I think it kind of makes sense. Someone might complain that this is more "participation trophy" nonsense, but the idea isn't to pretend kids won something when they didn't. The idea is to send the message that, if you worked hard to win and tried your best, you should be proud of that regardless of whether you won. You shouldn't be especially proud of mere participation if you weren't trying very hard. But also if you won a contest that was easy for you to win, and you didn't try very hard, that's not something to be particularly proud of either.
I read Carol Dweck's "MindSet"... in all the books I've reading during a self-help kick, I think its identification of Fixed Mindsets vs Growth Mindsets is the most useful concept, both for my own growth as a former-semi-precocious child, and how I deal with kids these days
Precocious kids are prone to developed a Fixed Mindset, feeling that their intelligence and abilities are intrinsic, critical to why they are special, maybe even why they are loved. So the result of praising intelligence as "oh you're so smart" - The tendency could grow to seek only those activities that will validate their self-image, and also to lash out with anger at the external "causes" of their failures...
Describing and cultivating the core of the Growth Mindset is trickier.-- it's a more nuanced belief. It holds that the value of life is in the process, that abilities and intelligence are plastic and that constant growth and striving are the hallmarks doing well. You want kids to get a good Growth Mindset and maybe they will reject things that are too easy as unworthy of their time and attention; it's much better to get a good challenge that can teach, even if the "good" results are less assured.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Now that my kids are entering school, I wonder about this topic a lot. The thing that stinks is that there aren't really any do-overs with this stuff and you only find out if you did the right thing years later. Our current approach has been to praise good work where appropriate and make it clear that it takes hard work to keep producing consistent good work. Allowing a kid to make mistakes while keeping them working hard enough to do well is a big balancing act that I'm still struggling with.
Telling your kids they're smart all the time does 2 things - it ties your approval to their success, so no shocker that they're going to do anything including cheating to get grades at that point. It also means that when they do fail, which they will, it's going to be very hard to bounce back from it. I've seen this happen to people close to me...either they've hit an academic setback that they just can't recover from, or they get out in the real world and fail at something, and it's devastating. If you've been spending 22 years of your life getting straight As and being smarter than everyone else, then hit the workplace and figure out that it's not always the smartest one that gets ahead, I could see that being a huge blow. I studied chemistry in college, and was not a model student by any means. An organic chem course I took was shared with premeds and prepharmacy students and there was rampant cheating among that group...simply because they had no choice but to get an A in it. I was lucky to get a C but it was an honest C. :-) Pre-health programs are so oversubscribed that they just take the top GPAs to fill the class, so anything less than a 4.0 means you won't get into a competitive major. The year I did this, there were 1500 or so students competing for 200 slots in a pharmacy program...talk about pressure to perform and a crushing defeat if you don't make it.
I agree that telling your kids they're super-geniuses when they're not is a really bad idea. What I don't think is the right approach is the Tiger Mom approach, where you tell your kid they're stupid when they get a B+ on an assignment, send them to hours and hours of post-school tutoring, force them to take violin lessons or whatever you think is going to get them into the Ivy League schools and law or medical school immediately after. I think that might work with some kids and some cultural settings, but a lot of kids are just going to end up hating their parents and rebelling when it really does come down to crunch time (i.e. college application years.) Even the original Tiger Mom kid Amy Chua said in her book that this approach doesn't work on everyone and only grudgingly agreed that all that bullying got her to Harvard, Yale Law School and a Biglaw job, at the expense of family relationships.
The thing that sucks is that these days it's almost not acceptable to fail, or realize you made a mistake and make a correction. The US is _way_ more tolerant of failure than Asian countries - I read something a few weeks ago about how Japanese companies still don't hire experienced employees...most technical jobs are obtained in the last year of school and if you miss out on it, you're permanently disqualified. There are a couple of things like this in the US -- it's impossible to recover from bad grades to get into medical school or law school, and it's impossible to get certain jobs like corporate law firms, investment banking or management consulting without doing the exact prescribed steps. But, we need to realize that outside of these rarified slots that only a few will achieve, most of us are going to wind up normal people and do OK in life.
My High School English teachers was not opposed to cheating. I won't say she exactly encouraged it, but she openly advertised that she would not punish for it. She believed that cheating was just another way to learn. For rote memorization, I think she may be right. If you learned the capitol of British Columbia by looking over your neighbour's shoulder, you still learned.
Obviously, there is a lot of room to not learn while cheating.
Our educational system fails almost everyone with any potential at all. It's designed to pass the largest percentage of it's students possible. Essentially a gigantic special education program.
The vast majority of these people go on to have careers in dick and if they attend college they flock to the easiest programs they can. Then they spend the rest of their adult lives talking about how they never needed science or algebra and will get into the occasional wankfest with their facebook friends about how sad it is that they're not teaching cursive anymore.
Ironically now that I'm an engineer I run into a lot of guys who wasted years in special education where virtually nothing is taught above an elementary school level.
Some things suck so bad that it's kind of reasonable to assume every person along the way was at fault. I fondly remember my teachers using your argument to defend themselves.... but if we take a step back we can just as easily say "oh it's the rest of the country that's the failure and not the fault of you and the system you're a part of" or
Perhaps the numbers are lying and we have great teachers all over the place who just happened to all take easy classes in college and move into a career with a reputation for low pay.
Makes sense.
Because I think the most successful people on the planet are all cheaters
> Then again, another study found that students also performed better in school if you paid them to get good grades.
According to self-reported surveys (which, unfortunately are the best and only data types we have), kids whose parent pay them for grades are more likely to cheat.
Last week, my son approached me with a conclusive proof that P=NP. At first I thought it couldn't hurt to give him a little praise for that, but I luckily managed to get a hold of myself and instead told the little moron to fuck off. As a father you have to be an unpleasable demigod to your kids, an existential monument they can never even dream of catching up to, although they are obliged to try relentlessly, and the responsible parent I am I have no problem to embrace this role to its fullest. ...
that and I don't like show offs.
So this is dumb/normal kids who are told they are smart as a form of praise.
I was wondering how the smart kid who is told they are smart cheats, when they are done with the tests way faster than the rest of the class and thus have no one to copy off of.
I grew up with my parents telling me I was smart and special. I was bored at school. Being labeled smart made me lazy. I turned in maybe a third of my homework (I did homework if I thought I needed help with the material), but aced the tests so I rarely got below an A-. This made my parents mad because they couldn't punish for an A-. Admittedly I was a geek, reading the encyclopedia for leisure and performing all sorts of science experiments.
This is why my dad always said I was a dumb shit! It was actually a blessing! Thanks Dad!
"If you're so smart, why ain't you rich?"
That one, and my favorite from her was when I got spanked, and she found out it I wasn't guilty...
"That's for the time you didn't get caught"
That came after my mom woke me in the middle of the night to beat my ass after stepping in some dog shit on the way to the outhouse (small cottage in Ontario, CN), and thought I had don it. The noise woke Grandma, who came out and said, "that's dogshit", followed by the line above. Adults didn't apologize to kids back in my day. Thankfully, Grandma made the best homemade donuts, and as I got older, I realized that she tried to make it up to me in other ways.
So, while we can look back and say they were doing it wrong, Grandma raised six successful children, who raised seventeen successful children of their own...okay, there is one black sheep, but he's not terrible.
Just another day in Paradise
Love it, but I have no mod points.
Just another day in Paradise