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Spain's Crackdown on Catalonia Includes Internet Censorship (internetsociety.org)
Spain's autonomous Catalonia region wants to hold a referendum on independence next weekend. Spain's Constitutional Court insists that that vote is illegal, and has taken control of Catalonia's police force to try to stop the vote. They're deploying thousands of additional police officers and have seized nearly 10 million ballots. And now the Internet Society has gotten involved, according to an announcement shared by Slashdot reader valinor89: Measures restricting free and open access to the Internet related to the independence referendum have been reported in Catalonia. There have been reports that major telecom operators have been asked to monitor and block traffic to political websites, and following a court order, law enforcement has raided the offices of the .cat registry in Barcelona, examining a computer and arresting staff.
We are concerned by reports that this court order would require a top-level domain (TLD) operator such as .cat to begin to block "all domains that may contain any kind of information about the referendum."
We are concerned by reports that this court order would require a top-level domain (TLD) operator such as .cat to begin to block "all domains that may contain any kind of information about the referendum."
Ain't dead yet!
Trying to suppress people's freedom is the surest way of pissing them off. How many went from pro-union to pro-independence due to this nonsense?
It's interesting to check the two sessions which took place on 6 and 7 September of Parlamento de Cataluña and see how they broke their own law and how they have suspended the parliament sessions after the referendum. ... And they talk about censorship.
If you start condoning Internet censorship for political reasons (for example, what has been going on with the Daily Stormer), it will never stop where you think.
Cataluña has no reason to secede. Nationalists, who are basically localist fascists are the ones pushing for an impossible exit of cataluña from the Spain, when by the way, they werent anexed. Cataluña entered Spain voluntarily, more than 500 years ago. Now the spanish government though is anything but smart. Prime Minister Rajoy could almost qualify as a sea sponge if we are talking about intelligence. This is why this move on the Spanish part is sad, stupid, but not unforseen. It plays into the hands of the fucking cataluña nazis, which is what nationalists are.
NO SIG
They are also arresting "civilian" programmers for mirroring the banned pages in other domains and charging them with disobedience, malfaesence and other charges.
You can just move there, then secede.
They even have an island prepared with a similar name: Catalina
Not too long ago, in 2006, a majority in the Spanish parliament voted in favor of a treaty that intended to give Catalonia some more autonomy - only to be subsequently stopped by jurisdiction - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... for more on this.
And now Spain has a government that seems inclined to follow in the foot steps of Erdogan and alike, who think that violence and oppression is the way to go if you don't like what some regional government has decided upon.
It's really a shame how this conflict is being escalated for no good reason.
A 2nd amendment right about now don't yah? But yeah no one would ever want to protect themselves from their own government.
we can't have that.
Note that the issue here is not about independence or freedom of speech. It is about the authority to call a referendum, which the Spanish constutitution (which was accepted in a referendum by more than 66% of Catalonians) says belongs only to the central Government (or Parliament). The Catalan Government however has ignored this, despite being repeatedly told it could not do that single-sidedly, they have gone along despite the courts ruling that it's illegal. Nobody is being arrested or censored for calling for independence, but for planning to commit an illegal act.
I support self-determination, I support the right of Catalonia (and Scotland, and California, and Corsica, etc.) to decide its future and place in the world, but this should be done in a sensible manner and with the agreement of all parts involved.
There is no political censorship. Not a single private site has been taken down based on opinions or editorial lines. The only sites that has been blocked are the ones created by the local Government explicitly to promote the ballot (many of which didn't even comply with European regulations regarding user tracking or data privacy). There are plenty of sites that are favorable to the ballot and are running without problem. On the other hand, the Catalonian local Government has an history of revoking licenses to radio and television stations which are critical with the independence movement. That IS censorship.
The Constitution of 1978, which imposes that no part of Spain can proclaim independency unilaterally, was approved by the Catalonian in a ballot held on December 6th, 1978. The Spanish Government is doing the only thing it can do: follow Spain's laws. The Catalonian Government, on the other hand, is doing whatever it wishes, even breaking its own local laws.
If Catalonia wants independency, there is a legal way. But it needs the approval of Spanish Parliament, and the independentists know it most likely won't succeed, so they are trying to go out of the law.
...it's Fash the Nation!
Despite it being or not correct, it is illegal under the current law. Instead of lobbying and working to change the law to allow the referendum, Catalonia chooses to ignore it and prepare an opaque voting process, cleverly surrounding it with a false oppression climate. If you choose to go against the law, it is in fact logical that courts rule to ban the process.
If you choose the fast way and individualist way, you usually have to face consequences.
A few decades ago, Spain granted Catalonia quite a lot of autonomy away from the greater nation. While I don't know enough of the history to know why they did this, they were asking for this sort of trouble by doing it the first place. Catalonia is very wealthy, has a distinct culture, and provides about 20% of Spain's total GDP. If I remember, the call for total independence started about a decade ago. Spain's response at that time was to remove the extra powers they had been granted with their autonomy, reeling them back in to the fold. So this is not an entirely new issue. While I think Catalonia has a case for independence here, it will not happen. I cannot blame Catalonia for being sore over this. I suspect this will become violent with the end result being a Catalonia that will know longer be in any shape to offer Spain the wealth they are trying to hold on to. This is the creation of the sort of bad blood that will persist, serving neither any good.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Driven by local nationlists, the north American territories of the British Empire did absolutely illegal things when they seceded. How could those people dare to question the legal rule of their central government?
And by the way, lot's of European countries would still be under the despotic rule of some emporer far away in Rome, had they not been "disobedient" to Roman law.
Thankfully there has been no violence yet except some extremists in confrontation with the police. Even the CUP wich have strong ties with the extreme left and some anarchist currents has been asking for restrain and non violent protests.
Just as people who wanted freedom in other decades and nations ways around central telco and print censorship will be found.
In 1950-80's Eastern Europe people printed their own newspapers, flyers and pamphlets.
Today the world has bluetooth, wifi for short-range ad-hoc networks, low cost usb sticks and ways if moving larger amounts of local data around without needing a national internet.
The more a government attempts to ban independence the more a local community will embrace anything that supports and spreads material thats pro independence.
A new generation of local and short distance network services could be developed under such draconian national telco censorship.
As Montenegro got independence so did Slovenia, Croatia. So will other parts of Europe. People want freedom. Trying to remove parts of the internet just shows the desperation of governments. Communities just create and embrace their own local and fun data flows.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
"The dark night of fascism is always descending in the United States and yet lands only in Europe." - Tom Wolfe
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Oh, yes. there are good reasons... for them.
Both sides receive a benefit with this: the fascist-right PP gains votes from the spanish fascist voters, and the catalan nationalists (another type of fascism with a coat of leftist paint) can continue taking advantage of the idiots that believe their hollow promises of a catalonian paradise (ha ha).
The separatist politicians don't want independence. They want to stand eternally against the evil Spain (so they can continue justifying their political activity). Politicians from both sides win. The people will be robbed in any case.
This coming within the EU community and none of these is being condemned? But WHOOAA, Poland doesn't want to accept migrants that illegally entered the union, we better take them to the EU courts! The horrors! All the good that the EU was claiming to be is all coming down like a house of cards.
The move from Spain government seems rather stupid. It would have been easy to let the referendum happen and consider it unconstitutional, or illegitimate if few people attended.
Now Spain government appears as fighting democracy, I am sure that it pushed many people in Catalonia toward independence.
See how much better you have it?
Due for another separation referendum yet? Third time could be the charm!
Quebec thinks its a separate country in its own mind anyway. In many ways it is.
Spain could learn from Canada on this one.
Bullshit propaganda instruments like you, justifying their actions by the fact that they combat other fucking propaganda by the other side.
Meanwhile, nobody is interested in disseminating THE TRUTH.
Assfucks on both sides that never learned the lessons of history, that never learned that you don't fight disinformation with contrary disinformation, that you don't fight extremism with another form of extremism. There is not A SINGLE EXAMPLE in all history where fighting fire with fire hasn't led to massacre, war and bloodshed.
Fucking sociopaths running the show on both sides, always. God, humanity is a discusting species. No wonder even it's own creator tried to drown them all at one point. His only mistake was the ark.
party in Germany. That tells me everything I need to know about Spain. They refused to fight Hitler.
Considering what the Muslims have done over the years to Spain, I can't blame them for being racist and supporting Nazis.
this is russian meddling again. trying to break up the eu. russia needs to be punished.
Yes you can. Unless, like them, you have learned NOTHING from history and believe that one form of extremism is an acceptable weapon against another form of extremism.
You're the reason why there will never be peace on this earth, only misery, violence, war and bloodshed.
Look, if it upsets you that much, post your address and I'll be glad to mail you a hankie. A nice pink one to go with your politics.
Cataluña has no reason to secede. Nationalists, who are basically localist fascists are the ones pushing for an impossible exit of cataluña from the Spain, when by the way, they werent anexed.
You can say exactly the same things about Scotland in the UK and Quebec in Canada. In both cases the regions were given a free vote (two in fact for Quebec) about whether they wanted to secede and in both cases the majority voted against it and the independence movements in both locations are now effectively muted for decades. So while Spain has been saying that "no country would tolerate this" they are utterly wrong: two countries have and it worked out well both times.
If what you say is true then the Spanish government is being idiotic in its response. It should not only have allowed the vote but organized it too to ensure it is performed fairly. If you are right then such a vote would have been against independence and the problem goes away for several decades. Actively suppressing it is likely to greatly increase support for independence and the result will be some sort of election probably in favour of independence and then you'll have a resurgent independence movement which will cause you problems for decades and way well eventually result in independence!
...aren't the local police. They're a military organisation that carries out police-like duties. You'll often see them in the streets of Barcelona but it's generally not a good idea to ask them the time or for directions. On the other hand, you can have a friendly chat, especially in Catalan, with the local Guàrdia Urbana if you want to. They're the local police and they're standing in support of the referendum.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
...and no, there is no censorship involved.
Catalonia is not a colony.
Catalonia has been always part of Spain, and a very important part. This was already so when the province of Hispania was created under the Roman Empire, imposing a layer of latin culture and roman institutions on top of the existing Iberian tribes. After the downfall of Empire, the visigoths ruled all of the Peninsula as a single kingdom for more than two centuries. The small christian kingdoms and principalities that from 711 to 1492 fighted the muslims were at times also fighting each other, but the general trend was that of strengthening alliances and uniting forces under the same religion, not unlike other places in Medieval Europe.
Catalan counties were already integrated in a larger unit (the Kingdom of Aragon) in which different languages (such as castilian and catalan) already coexisted for two centuries before the marriage of the Catholic Monarchs. They no doubt kept their identity, but the same could be said of every other region. Asserting that those small medieval kingdoms survived into today's regions with zero intermingling, thus conforming clearly separate and distinct societies, is simply untenable.
In the heyday of the Spanish Empire and till the 19th century, catalans (and basques, BTW) were not just part of the thing, but a *leading* part of it. You can find lots of catalan surnames in Hispanic American countries, many of them in well-to-do families (check out the names of some well known distilleries such as Bacardi, Brugal, Barceló, if you don't mind my alcoholic references).
With the historical digression, I just wanted to point to the fact that there have been no borders inside Spain for many centuries. This is not some country with huge differences in racial/ethnic aspects, or torn out by religious strife. The interrelationships are deep and extended in time. At this point it's difficult to define exactly who is catalan or not. Is it just being born in today's arbitrarily defined administrative region what makes you catalan? Are you catalan if your parents were not? Are you catalan if you don't speak catalan? Are you catalan if you do speak catalan but don't live in Catalonia? The top 10 most frequent family names are the same in Cat and in the rest of Sp. Catalan is the first language of 36% of people living in Cat while Spanish is the first language for 46%. Catalan exports to Germany, to put an example, are less than half of those to its neighboring autonomous region of Aragon. Who gets to vote in a referendum?
The fact is that since 1978 Sp has been a highly decentralized country, much more similar to federal Germany than to centralist France. Cat, being one of 17 autonomous regions, has had for almost 40 years plenty of effective "independence": both an autonomous government and parliament, capable of passing their own laws within a large margin, as long as they don't undermine the general interests of Sp as a whole, which doesn't seem so unreasonable to me.
If you ask me, this autonomy has been used to put the emphasis on the difference. Autonomous administration has reached all aspects of civil life, to a point that the presence of national institutions are scarcely felt, and the words "país", "nació" are used all the time to refer to Cat and not to Sp. There's a huge part of the population whose first language is Spanish, yet it is not possible to study primary nor secondary school in Spanish (due to the official policy of "linguistic immersion"). Regional governments have spent a lot of money and effort in building their image, uniformizing and boosting the usage of catalan language, confering dignity to their institutions, projecting an international image, etc. etc. The regional PM is paid almost twice as much as Rajoy - not bad for an "oppressed nation"!
At the same time, complaints about things that don't go well are targeted to a ghostly oppresive presence, the "State", the "Central Government". The idea of Spain is ass
"Political websites" is a misleading term. What is being blocked (or trying to) are websites with instructions on how and where to participate in an illegal referendum, not the ones that opinate about or even defend the referendum itself. Webs that talk about drugs are not the same as webs that sell drugs. Just google a bit and see for yourself.
inclined to follow in the foot steps of Erdogan and alike
One is arresting people associated with a ballot and bypassing banned material.
The other actively killed opponents, arrested people with wide ranging roles including the media in attempt to silence opposition all while passing laws to gain additional power over people and also the judicial system.
Spain's government may not be acting in the purest of democratic ways, but comparing this to what is going on in Turkey severely undermines just how bad the situation in Turkey really is.
Spain (and Partido Popular/Mariano Rajoy or any other party) has nothing to do with a country like Turkey and a dictator-like figure like Erdogan. In Spain, talking about corruption means politicians stealing money/getting jobs to friends/family. Nothing to do with arbitrariness at the level of deciding what to do with the faith of a region.
It's really a shame how this conflict is being escalated for no good reason.
Unlikely your previous statements, that one is very accurate, although not because of what seems your intention.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
You are right that the situation in Turkey at this time is a lot worse than the situation in Spain, but look how quickly it escalates: Sending thousands of para-military "Guardia Civil" personell into Catalonia to enforce the will of the central government is the most sure way to alienate the locals - I would not be suprised to see the first shots fired soon.
Big Brother taught the Generalissimo wannabees of the Spanish Government well. Kudos for thwarting the free speech and freedom you all howl about... Oh it only applies if people agree with you. Pardon... my bad.... carry on. Nothing to see here about European censorship!!!
As commented in another post up this thread, regions in Spain have a quite relevant autonomy, mainly Catalonia.
So? Even if what you claim is true (and that's arguable), if a people feel that they're not being represented by a government, secession should always be an option.
Spain (and Partido Popular/Mariano Rajoy or any other party) has nothing to do with a country like Turkey and a dictator-like figure like Erdogan.
It's the repression of a democratic process, and while thankfully it's not at Turkey's level, it's still escalating.
In Spain, talking about corruption means politicians stealing money/getting jobs to friends/family. Nothing to do with arbitrariness at the level of deciding what to do with the faith of a region.
Usually I'd agree with you, but when the Spanish government claims that secession is against the constitution and stands by said constitution as if it were perfection on paper, but on a previous occasion the same people went and modified the document (in under a week) to let the previous king's son inherit the throne as there was no legal way for the current king to inherit the throne after his father abdicated. That type of behavior is hypocritical and arguably corrupt.
No shoots will occur for two reasons:
1. Law enforcement corps in Spain are highly qualified and trained to not fall into provocations.
2. Individuals behind the pro-independence movement are a bunch of cowards.
So? Even if what you claim is true (and that's arguable)
They have an option supported by the Spanish Constitution itself. Each region in Spain can determine the level of autonomy they want to reach and go through the corresponding process. Even those rules might be changed/updated/extended. Catalonia chose (and got) one of the highest levels of independence.
if a people feel that they're not being represented by a government, secession should always be an option.
Firstly, we are not seeing what people want, but what a few parties (+ noisy supporters) promote as a way to fulfill their long-term expectations. Regarding secession, I am personally not too attached to abstract concepts of ownership/belonging and don't like forcing anyone to anything. On the other hand, there are quite a few people who don't think like me and have more profound feelings about abstract realities as the whole Spain. Even if I would have ignored all that and would only consider people living in Catalonia (now or since how many years ago? what about companies? what about people going in/out? etc), you would have to follow a legal/fair/considering everyone process, whose underlying requirement is legally-recognised authorities performing legally-binding actions. How can you get that under the current conditions?
It's the repression of a democratic process, and while thankfully it's not at Turkey's level, it's still escalating.
How can it be so? Let me put you an extreme example to help transmit this point. Imagine that I don't want to pay more taxes, to care about what the national/regional/local government say to me and decide to create my own virtual country formed by just one person: Alvaronia. The authorities say me that I cannot do such a thing, I reply to them that I don't feel represented by all what surrounds my virtual kingdom (yeah! I decided to convert myself in a king. LOL), that they are repressing my rights because of not allowing me to do so. What is the problem with this example? That I am just 1 person (with not too much money/assets)? But according to your idea, my intention might be fine otherwise? What about if I convince 100 people more to join my kingdom (all of them as slaves, logically; LOL)? And 1000? And 1 million? What is the number of people which I would need to allow me to arbitrarily impose my expectations to the legislation of the given country? So, we are a group of people in a democracy, but we don't like what that democracy and the associated legislation have for us (perhaps we don't even understand what we are talking about!?) and, one day, we decide to make our own rules. When the country we live in avoids us to do what we want to do, we complain about our democratic rights not being respected? The national authorities avoiding us to do whatever we want are the ones being supported by a democracy, by what is wanted by the most people! Our attempt wouldn't be democratic, but counter-democratic, illegal, revolutionary, call it whatever you want, but certainly not democratic. You cannot redefine the target audience of a democracy as a way to facilitate you meeting whatever expectations! Otherwise, you could call anti-democratic anything going against whatever that a group of any size might decide at whatever moment!
but when the Spanish government claims that secession is against the constitution
It is actually against the Spanish Constitution, as clearly stated by the most important authority in Spain about this matter: Tribunal Constitucional (whatever the name in English is). A different story is you not liking it or wanting it to be modified.
and stands by said constitution as if it were perfection on paper
Not at all. Everything is improvable. But the Spanish Constitution is the basic law for the whole Spanish legal system, similarly to what happens in other countries. You can try to change it but, meanwhile, all yo
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
> They want to stand eternally against the evil Spain
We Dutch know that can take some time, we had the 80 year war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years%27_War) with Spain to gain our independence.
Did you say that about the Basques as well? If they suppress this with enough repression the fight for independence might escalate.
A Spanish native cannot vote in the referendum if he was not born there (a good chunk of the population).
For some reason, this little detail seems to have been left aside.
Yep, just as I thought. Just another caveman with his caveman mentality who thinks he's a modern human because he uses a computer.
I bet you think slavery is allright and women belong in the kitchen and bedroom too.
Firstly, we are not seeing what people want, but what a few parties (+ noisy supporters) promote as a way to fulfill their long-term expectations.
Those parties were elected to their positions in part (maybe mostly?) because of their stance on independence. Every person that went out and elected those officials knew those officials' stance on the topic before voting.
Regarding secession, I am personally not too attached to abstract concepts of ownership/belonging and don't like forcing anyone to anything. On the other hand, there are quite a few people who don't think like me and have more profound feelings about abstract realities as the whole Spain. Even if I would have ignored all that and would only consider people living in Catalonia (now or since how many years ago? what about companies? what about people going in/out? etc), you would have to follow a legal/fair/considering everyone process, whose underlying requirement is legally-recognised authorities performing legally-binding actions. How can you get that under the current conditions?
Without dialogue it's obviously next to impossible to figure out the details that will affect everyone, but when the central government is the one that decided to send troops and arrest officials instead of saying "have your vote and if it gets a yes we'll work on the details".
It's the repression of a democratic process, and while thankfully it's not at Turkey's level, it's still escalating.
How can it be so? Let me put you an extreme example to help transmit this point. Imagine that I don't want to pay more taxes, to care about what the national/regional/local government say to me and decide to create my own virtual country formed by just one person: Alvaronia. The authorities say me that I cannot do such a thing, I reply to them that I don't feel represented by all what surrounds my virtual kingdom (yeah! I decided to convert myself in a king. LOL), that they are repressing my rights because of not allowing me to do so. What is the problem with this example? That I am just 1 person (with not too much money/assets)? But according to your idea, my intention might be fine otherwise?
Sure, I'm willing to let any human being (individual or group) make his/her own mistakes when it comes to self determination as long as it doesn't infringe on others. If a person never uses any of the services or infrastructure provided by society and wants to live alone in a cave in the woods then be my guest, it's no skin off of anyone's back (assuming they own the land). If a farming community feels that they're not getting enough in return by their government then they should be free to separate themselves, but if they regret it later because someone breaks his leg/gets sick/whatever and they have no medical services then their lack of foresight is their own fault. If a few million people decide that they'll be better off separate from the other 40 million, and feel that in the end, despite fears of stumbling at the start, that they'll stand taller at the end, then that's their choice.
When the country we live in avoids us to do what we want to do, we complain about our democratic rights not being respected? The national authorities avoiding us to do whatever we want are the ones being supported by a democracy, by what is wanted by the most people! Our attempt wouldn't be democratic, but counter-democratic, illegal, revolutionary, call it whatever you want, but certainly not democratic.
Revolutions are always illegal, that doesn't mean that they're wrong or undemocratic. Just because a larger group of people want one thing doesn't mean that they should have the right to force the smaller group to do things against their will. The problem you outline is that democracy, literally meaning "rule of the people", depends on which group of people you look at, and I prefer a bottom-up approach to your top-down approac
Without dialogue it's obviously next to impossible to figure out the details that will affect everyone, but when the central government is the one that decided to send troops and arrest officials instead of saying "have your vote and if it gets a yes we'll work on the details".
Sending troops?! LOL. Nothing of this has happened. To know more about the different local/regional/national outside-military law-enforcement bodies in Spain, do some research or take a look at one of my other posts in this thread. I will tell you two recent events to help you understand the situation better:
- The Catalan government decided to not send the due periodic economic report to the national government. The national government froze all the payments to the government-related employees in Catalonia. The Catalan government changed its mind and sent the due economic reports to the national government.
- The national government has recently taken control of the Catalan regional police because, in extreme cases, they can restrict all the regional authorities like having their own police.
They arrested officials because they were acting illegally; all their actions have an illegal component (= against the Spanish Constitution as stated by the highest court on this front), but the arrests you are mentioning (performing by Guardia Civil, a police-like body present in Catalonia and in all the other Spanish regions) were ordered by a judge in a Catalan court apparently investigating these officials for misusing public money. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the unwillingness to having any kind of sensible dialogue is quite implicit in the fact of disobeying direct indications of the highest court on that matter: you aren't just not setting the best mood for any kind of dialogue, but additionally behaving illegally.
comes to self determination as long as it doesn't infringe on others. If a person never uses any of the services or infrastructure
I see. So you think that, in the case of Spain, a pluri-democracy of over 45 million people should work fine, right? The funniest thing is that you seem to seriously believe that! And regarding your not using infrastructures, I guess that you mean that you never go through the streets/roads, breath (sanitisation/pollution reduction), eat/drink (safety regulations), etc. I guess that you live inside a neutral-to-the-environment bubble floating in the only spot where there is nothing else around you, being both fed and entertained by your words, ideas and expectations, right? LOL.
Revolutions are always illegal, that doesn't mean that they're wrong or undemocratic.
Illegal doesn't need to be compatible with right, not even with democratic. Illegal is exclusively compatible with applicable authority and consequences from disobeying it. Democratic is related with what the most think what is usually incompatible with revolutionary movements. I am not precisely a pro (random) authority person, but a pro fairness and common sense one. So, I am kind of anti-authority, but this doesn't mean that I don't understand and accept the consequences of my actions. In any legal system, illegal actions have consequences.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
Sending troops?! LOL. Nothing of this has happened.
My understanding is that the Guardia Civil is a military force that usually has police duties and that 1200 were sent to Catalonia. It might not be the "real army" but it's still a military force.
I see. So you think that, in the case of Spain, a pluri-democracy of over 45 million people should work fine, right? The funniest thing is that you seem to seriously believe that! And regarding your not using infrastructures, I guess that you mean that you never go through the streets/roads, breath (sanitisation/pollution reduction), eat/drink (safety regulations), etc. I guess that you live inside a neutral-to-the-environment bubble floating in the only spot where there is nothing else around you, being both fed and entertained by your words, ideas and expectations, right? LOL.
You missed my point completely and I was partially agreeing with you here. I said that if a person avoids using any of the infrastructure and benefits that a society offers then that person should be free to live separate in their bubble like the "Alvaronia" you posited.
but look how quickly it escalates
Yeah I know. Hitler's father died and a few years later world war 2. Yay extrapolation!
They arrested officials because they were acting illegally; all their actions have an illegal component (= against the Spanish Constitution as stated by the highest court on this front), but the arrests you are mentioning (performing by Guardia Civil, a police-like body present in Catalonia and in all the other Spanish regions) were ordered by a judge in a Catalan court apparently investigating these officials for misusing public money. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the unwillingness to having any kind of sensible dialogue is quite implicit in the fact of disobeying direct indications of the highest court on that matter: you aren't just not setting the best mood for any kind of dialogue, but additionally behaving illegally.
I'm sure Erdogan charged his opponents with crimes before removing them from power. How this pans out depends on the verdicts of their trials, as well as a host of other things. However, I do agree with the fact that the situation got to where it is because of both sides, and not just one. We're debating over whether the majority of the culpability is on one side or the other. In my view, saying "don't do this or else" when it's a public vote on self determination is something I find to be more reprehensible than illegally printing ballots.
My understanding is that the Guardia Civil is a military force that usually has police duties and that 1200 were sent to Catalonia. It might not be the "real army" but it's still a military force.
For its proper definition, do some research. I can give you some informal ideas though: there are different levels of police-like bodies in Spain with different attributions. As what happens with everything else, here we have 3 main levels: local (city), regional (comunidades autónomas like Catalonia; there are also intermediate divisions, but their powers are very limited) and national. So, we have local/regional/national police bodies. Some regions like Catalonia have taken competence on police and they created their own regional/local police departments.
At the national level, the two main alternatives are "policía nacional" and "guardia civil"; where the latter is mostly focused on traffic and road control, but they also work on other issues like security. Although their origins (and even internal structure) might be closer to the army, they are an independent body mostly meant to perform police-like work. For army-like work, I guess that they use the army.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
I'm sure Erdogan charged his opponents with crimes before removing them from power.
This is so far away from being even remotely applicable (not just in Spain, but also in the other UE countries) that I don't even know what to say. Rajoy, or any other president before, has nothing close to Erdogan's power; not even to Trump's power. Spain is a parliamentary democracy where everything has to go through the parliament.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
This is so far away from being even remotely applicable (not just in Spain, but also in the other UE countries) that I don't even know what to say. Rajoy, or any other president before, has nothing close to Erdogan's power; not even to Trump's power. Spain is a parliamentary democracy where everything has to go through the parliament.
I agree that the level of individual power is different, but I still find it curious how you can deny the power grab the current government managed to pull off despite its loss in votes last election cycle.
The government only censored sites referring to the referendum, nothing more. As the referendum is declared illegal, it is ilicit to close a website which conducts illegal activities.
People should note that Catalan society is equally divided (note that only 47% voted independent partiea last elections) and a referendum is not going to solve any problem, just show a winner and a loser.
Exact reason the U.S. has it.
Find a map of the world. Find your country on it. Now go down. Keep going down, through the thin windy bit. Stay on the right hand side. Keep going along that side till you come to a big bit that bulges out to the right. Go rightwards across the blue stuff and you'll come to Africa. If it has a hole that matches the bulge you just left from, you're in the right place. Now go up the left coast and around a bit until you come to a little narrow bit of sea. Above that is Spain, mostly.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
curious how you can deny the power grab the current government managed to pull off despite its loss in votes last election cycle.
Power grab?! How are you supposed to measure power in a parliament-has-all-powers kind of country? The more representatives you have either directly or agreeing with you, the more power you get. Partido Popular has currently the majority in the Spanish parliament because, according to our current election system, they won the last election. Getting more/less votes isn't as relevant as getting more sits in the parliament (defined by the votes being weighted on account of some regional factors) than the other parties. Who is to blame? Spanish voters, other parties and Spanish voting system. People at Partido Popular has proven to be very corrupt, but not in the sense that you seem to be implying; they mostly focus on stealing money and hiring friends/family. This kind of power hording Erdogan or Putin style isn't compatible with the Spanish system, overall attitude and even the EU expectations.
Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
What's with this informative BS? It's against the TOS, right? Back to snarky oneliners mister :)
(Thanks)
They mention “measures restricting free and open access to the Internet”, which is a gross exaggeration.
The TLD .cat has “over 100 thousand active domain names”, but Spanish judges have decreed the shutdown of 10 very specific domains.
Nobody's restricting “free and open access to the Internet” in Catalonia or elsewhere in Spain; it is very confusing (or manipulative) to say so.
Web sites defending Catalan independence and organising people around that goal via democratic and lawful means are legan and stay open (and in fact, some of them receive generous public subsidies). It's only a few web sites calling for sedition and for disobeying the ruling of the Constitutional Court that are being shut down.
https://tripu.info/