India, China, and Japan Are All Planning Moon Missions (upi.com)

schwit1 shares an article from UPI: India will make its second mission to the moon in 2018, the Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO) announced this week. The Chandrayaan 2 spacecraft consists of an orbiter, lander and rover configuration "to perform mineralogical and elemental studies of the lunar surface," the ISRO said... Several other countries, including China and Japan, are planning lunar expeditions in the coming years -- partly to better understand the moon's environmental conditions for the potential of human settlements...

According to Popular Mechanics, the ISRO is attempting to make the lunar landing on a budget of $93 million, which is about the same cost of SpaceX's Falcon Heavy rocket that's scheduled for launch by the end of this year. The Falcon rocket, though, is only going into orbit -- and a $93 million price tag for a lunar landing could have impact on other countries' space plans.
India landed a spacecraft on the moon in 2008, and plans to complete this second lunar landing by March.

Comments

Re:Thanks Obama

[50000BTU_barbecue]

Actually, the reality is that the USA has left space behind. If other countries feel the need to re-enact 50 year old Space Theater, that's their problem.

Some Moon zones are contaminated.

[Anonymous Coward]

In the Moon there are Plutonium traces from the past lunar missions.

Good, America can't afford this nonsense anymore

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many trillions wasted on war and entitlements. Human spaceflight cannot be justified based on its enormous costs and risk vs paltry scientific return vs unmanned missions.

Re:Thanks Obama

[kanweg]

"At least we have the electric car fad."

Please print your comment, and put it in a place where you'll find it back in 5-10 years.

Bert

Here's an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

instead of all these parallel efforts, why not work together, abstract

Re:Here's an idea

[Anonymous Coward]

They get to keep all the spinoffs for their own country. Just look at the technology increase that came about from Apollo. Now multiply that by three because tha's how much new tech will be getting from these missions.

Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

Need more reparations, pride festivals and feminist outrage to destroy the West.

Re:Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Left behind? Perhaps you missed this, which the USA did 48 years ago, and has since moved on to things like Mars rovers and Pluto explorations?

Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's what I don't get about these plans to inhabit the Moon and Mars: even with temperatures and oceans rising, the conditions on the Moon and Mars will still be less hospitable than on Earth, and going there will still be more expansive than adpating for conditions here on Earth.

Let's say temperatures rise by 10 degrees celsius and oceans by 2 meters in the next 100 years, will conditions then be worse than the current conditions on the Moon and Mars?

I am all for space exploration, but is there really *any* reason to settle on the Moon besides enabling us to go further into the Solar System?

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[CohibaVancouver]

Let's say temperatures rise by 10 degrees celsius and oceans by 2 meters in the next 100 years, will conditions then be worse than the current conditions on the Moon and Mars?

Depends - If that warming of the earth / flooding and all the other resultant changes have led to world wars, tribalism and human societal collapse then yeah, maybe I would rather be living in a biodome on the moon.

Of all the things that might keep me up at night, it's wondering what world my children may have to deal with when they're my age.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[k84]

One not very big comet hits Earth and humanity is extinct. Man needs to spread into the solar system and beyond to ensure survival. Moon and Mars are two obvious first steps in that direction. Terraforming of Mars will take centuries, but the sooner we start the sooner it becomes the first backup human civilization.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[techno-vampire]

...is there really *any* reason to settle on the Moon besides enabling us to go further into the Solar System?

Isn't that enough of a reason? And, if we can learn how to build a self-sustaining colony on the Moon, it will be much easier to build one on Mars. Not only will we know what to do, we won't have to do all of the exterior work in hard vacuum.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Brett Buck]

Depends - If that warming of the earth / flooding and all the other resultant changes have led to world wars, tribalism and human societal collapse then yeah, maybe I would rather be living in a biodome on the moon.

Of all the things that might keep me up at night, it's wondering what world my children may have to deal with when they're my age.

      You know what worries me? It's that we are going to have generations of children raised by people who taught them both directly and indirectly to be terrified of anything and everything. And by people who have absolutely no sense of perspective.

      You are here, a putative adult, expressing existential fear over the modern equivalent of the boogieman. Your grandfather might have been willing to storm out of a landing craft into a hail of well-planned machine gun and artillery fire, your parents had to live with the very real and immediate possibility that every airplane that passed over might just have dropped a 1 megaton bomb on your your school, and it was very close to happening on at least 3 occasions. Now, you are living in the lap of luxury and security, but are terrified by a computer simulation?

      Even if the most absurd climate predictions come true in every detail, you assume it will destroy human civilization? People have dealt with one problem after another, successfully. Human civilization survived The Plague, for Christ's sake, something that they had absolutely no defense for, and just had to sit around, hour after hour, day after day, for decades, not knowing if the next time they coughed it might mean they are dying in the next 48 hours. Now a slow, perhaps mythical, rise in sea level is going to reduce the world to chaos?

    Are you at all aware that people have worried about equivalent issues, all far more likely than this gibberish, for the entire span of human history and probably far before? Ever hear of Holland?

        Teaching your kids that everything is always on the edge of falling apart and we are helpless to do anything over trivial problems is the WORST POSSIBLE THING you could do for the future of civilizations.

      Your post is one of the most pathetic things I have seen in my 56 years. Grow the fuck up and learn to deal with REAL LIFE.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[angel'o'sphere]

Human civilization survived The Plague
Actually it did not. It collapsed and stagnated for 500 years and more.
It raised later again, but that is not what I would call surviving.

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Namarrgon]

It's far from mythical.

It is not, however, an existential threat. It will not cause Western society to collapse (though some more vulnerable nations may not be so lucky).

It will be very expensive to deal with, and I expect that is what the GP is most concerned about (but not "terrified", as you seem to prefer to believe). Maybe look up how much the Netherlands has spent on its dyke system, and consider the cost of that for every coastal city on the planet. Have a look at what New York spent after Sandy's storm surge, and is now spending on new levees.

And that's just sea level. Have a look at all the other negative impacts described in the IPCC WG2 report, maybe read some of the many studies that attempt to count the net cost - and you too may be concerned for the sheer size of the bill any kids of yours will be stuck with.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember what they say about answering a question with a question?

A settlement for the purposes of space exploration would be wildly different from one aimed at large-scale habitation. The question was not whether space exploration is enough of a reason or not, it was whether there was *any other* reason. You did not answer it.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that CohibaVancouver is counting himself among the lucky few who would have the option to inhabit a biodome on the moon when civilization is destroyed amid enrivonmental catastrophe, war, and institutional collapse.

Who would even build, maintain and govern that biodome if civilizations are in shambles?

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron. We just need to put smart people in airplanes when the comet hits. Then they can land a few days later and enjoy an idiot-free planet.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

What *would* you call surviving?

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

But how does that cost compare to the cost of sending people in all of the affected regions to space?

The very idea is ludicrous. The logical thing to do is to relocate them. We inhabit very little of the habitable land on Earth.

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually troll, I believe the OP was speaking of some real issues that going to come.

First off, America is being sucked dry by the far right and leaving our kids with a massive debt.

Secondly, free nations were in control, esp of our self's, but again, the far right is selling us out to Russia and China. Very sick.

Then we have issues like a number of plagues due to antibiotics being over used esp by farmers all over the world.

personally, I continue to push my kids to go to Mars/moon because I believe fucking idiots like you are going to turn America into a 4 th world nation.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[techno-vampire]

OK, then I'll rephrase the part of my question that you didn't like. Learning how to build a self sustaining colony on the Moon will teach us what we'll need to know to build them on other planets, moons and asteroids so that we can expand across the Solar System without having to depend on resupply from Earth. Also, we can use any local minerals we can find to help build those colonies without having to lift everything out of Earth's gravity well. This will help our species survive any catastrophes on Earth. And, in the long term, we'll find reasons to be there that we can't even imagine as yet, just as the early students of electricity couldn't even conceive of most of the things we use it for today.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

God damn you are one stupid fucking idiot!

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[coastwalker]

Listen sonny (I am two years older than you). No one needs to teach their kids anything these days when we have 24/7 advertising telling them that they will die if they do not eat the right breakfast cereal, kill their children if they do not buy the right car, fail to breed unless they spray themselves with perfumed stuff. No wonder everyone lives in a state of existential dread when they are being told all the time that they are under threat. Most of what is wrong with the world can be blamed on the psychological damage that advertising causes. Of course they are bloody scared of everything, they spend their whole lives being deluged with button pushing threats to make them buy stuff they do not need. No wonder they have no sense of perspective. As for moon landings, who cares? they don't make hedge fund managers any richer so we don't do them any more.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

You didn't rephrase your answer, you changed it. Now you're saying we need to expand in order to survive catastrophes on Earth, and for reasons we still don't know.

Also, the provocation you added at the beginning is completely uncalled for. Do you not know how to behave during a civilized discussion?

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[yes-but-no]

Only when people believe the sky is falling, u can exploit them. Plz dont let out the secrets in a public forum. If you don't enjoy dominating others, plenty of us still do. Keep them scared of the gloom n doom.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[phantomfive]

Actually it did not. It collapsed and stagnated for 500 years and more.

The plague was in the 1300s, coinciding with the start of the Renaissance, one of the greatest flowerings of society in history. I'm not sure why you think it collapsed, especially stagnating for 500 years or more (Goethe, Mozart, and Kepler all fall into that time period, for example).

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[thinkwaitfast]

Wouldn't a biodome on the Earth be better? Even with a 20 degree increase, it will still be hundreds less than on the moon.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[thinkwaitfast]

You know what worries me?

This worries me the most too. You do realize that critical thinking is discouraged in education these days and consensus building encouraged. Read up on Morley Winograd, Senior Policy Advisor to Vice President Al Gore. and Director of the National Partnership for Reinventing Government.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[thinkwaitfast]

Population and technology increased during the middle ages, if that is the time period that you are referring to.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[thinkwaitfast]

Why not start out someplace much easier, like Antarctica? You can make many more and significantly cheaper mistakes, then maybe try moving to the moon.

I'd really like to know what the economy of a moon colony would look like. Would it be a bunch if unemployed people sitting around watching netflix in 1/6th g while waiting on their resupply ship from Earth twice a year?

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[techno-vampire]

Because we already know how to build a colony in Antarctica, even though it's not self-sufficient. Building a moon colony that doesn't need regular supplies from the Earth would be a major step forward for us. And, a colony like that wouldn't be full of unemployed people watching Netflix because most of them would be busy growing food, doing maintenance and all of those other things that are needed to keep the colony livable.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[DNS-and-BIND]

It raised later again, but that is not what I would call surviving.

This is literally what surviving means.

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who haven't read into what happens during an extinction level comet crash and thinks this is serious:

A comet large enough to be a problem will wipe up so much crap that the atmosphere will become toxic for a couple of centuries.
The only way to survive such an event would be in a closed environment, much like a space station.
It doesn't have to be in space. One could build a similar structure on the opposite side of where the comet hits or underwater.
The big problem is that we don't know how to make a self-sustaining closed environment that can survive for that long.
Even making one that can survive for a century would be a big leap forward.

This is where Mars exploration/exploitation comes in.
On Earth there is no need to make an closed environment. You don't need it for survival so you cheat.
For a Mars mission things are different. You can't cheat and the closed environment is an absolute necessity.
It is a great training ground for apocalyptic survival and portable micro-ecosystems.

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

The GP's point still stands. Whether we deal with global warming by building Netherlands-style coastal defences and relocating agricultural regions, or by building electric cars and switching to renewable power sources, either way we're talking about a cost of a few per cent of the global economy. Compared with WWII or the Black Death, in which a few per cent of humanity straight-up died, it's a mild concern - and the GGP's suggestion of hiding in a biodome on the moon is the sort of terrified panic-mongering that does nothing but keep people up at night.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Of all the things that might keep me up at night, it's wondering what world my children may have to deal with when they're my age.

Was that also keeping you up at night before you decided it was a good idea to have children anyway?

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

People don't care about the cost they're passing on with Social Security, Medicare, and deficit spending in general, why do you think adding this to the bill will make any difference?

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[thinkwaitfast]

because most of them would be busy...

Why can't that be automated? We're bombarded almost daily with stories about how there's no more work on Earth because all of that stuff is about to be automated here.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[angel'o'sphere]

There where several plagues.
The first one around 500, and between roughly 500 till roughly 1400 there was not much progress.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[angel'o'sphere]

Well, I would say technology more or less stagnated, except for firearms and a little bit bigger ships.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[angel'o'sphere]

So dying and getting reborn also means surviving?

Mankind survived, single humans did not.
And neither did civilization, just because a new civilization rose up again.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[techno-vampire]

Some of it may be, eventually, but at first, they'll be too busy building and expanding the colony to automate everything. And, I doubt that automated equipment like that is going to be a high priority import from Earth for a very long time. Of course, I could be wildly wrong here, but that's how I see it, especially if they're planning on using their experience by building a colony on Mars, where rapid resupply isn't practical.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[phantomfive]

Aw if you want to go on like that, plagues are basically a constant. Look at what happened in Islam and Persia during that period, humanity as a whole went forward.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[DNS-and-BIND]

I feel you don't know what the Black Death was. It did not destroy civilization. Whole parts of the world were completely unaffected. In Europe, only 30-40% of the population died, there were plenty left to repopulate afterwards. It did change the nature of their culture, for the better. Fewer workers meant better terms for them, and Europe thereby avoided a Malthusian famine catastrophe where the population outpaced the food supply.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are here, a putative adult, expressing existential fear over the modern equivalent of the boogieman. Your grandfather might have been willing to storm out of a landing craft into a hail of well-planned machine gun and artillery fire, your parents had to live with the very real and immediate possibility that every airplane that passed over might just have dropped a 1 megaton bomb on your your school, and it was very close to happening on at least 3 occasions. Now, you are living in the lap of luxury and security, but are terrified by a computer simulation?

Not arguing your post, but just wanted to point out a difference. What is happening now, is that we can better *predict* what might happen a decade down the road.

If the grandfather in your example had known that next decade he would likely be storming a beach into a hail of bullets and bombs, I kinda hazard a guess he would not have gone "meh" and not done his best to try and change that bit of the future.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[Agripa]

And, if we can learn how to build a self-sustaining colony on the Moon, it will be much easier to build one on Mars. Not only will we know what to do, we won't have to do all of the exterior work in hard vacuum.

Mars atmospheric pressure is 99.4% of a vacuum compared to Earth so there is no practical difference.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[angel'o'sphere]

I did not say, it destroyed civilization.
The parent said: civilization survived.

Which it did not. Civilization stagnated between 500 and 1500, with various drops in level, for what ever reasons.

Re:Why the Moon and Mars?

[RockDoctor]

maybe I would rather be living in a biodome on the moon.

Of all the things that might keep me up at night, it's wondering what world my children may have to deal with when they're my age.

If you're living in a biodome on the moon, accept that you wouldn't have any meaningful control over your reproduction. Probably "unauthorised reproduction results in death for child and both parents", for whatever authorisation standards your society comes up with.

Re: Why the Moon and Mars?

[Namarrgon]

The biodome mention was obviously hyperbole, so maybe don't take that comment too literally.

And as for cost - first, a few percent of GDP would cause another recession, and that cost every year adds up pretty fast. Second, climate costs accelerate as we move further away from our norm so that annual cost would only grow. Third, those studies I mentioned all show that mitigation costs a lot less than adaption, so financially we'd be foolish not to act. Fourth, we'd avoid a lot of the more existential risks that become significant when climate changes this rapidly, and those are hard to plan for. And fifth, getting off fossil fuels has the added benefit of saving the hundreds of billions that the US currently spends each year on pollution health costs - that should also be factored into any real accounting of costs and benefits.

Re:Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Justi

[50000BTU_barbecue]

Yes, Mother Nature is flawed. After all, what are hospitals, antibiotics, central heating, surgery, air conditioning, sewers, treated municipal drinking water for? For that matter, clothes?

What about cancer? That's a flaw.

So what are you really trying to say?

India's mission

[OneHundredAndTen]

We'll see how they tackle the toilet problem - a technology that they have yet to master here on earth.

Re:India's mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't they worried about al-Qaeda in Outer Space and their UFOs full of little green terrorists? we need the TSA at all space ports to keep Mars safe and secure! ae911truth dot org

Re:India's mission

[Anonymous Coward]

They will be on the moon by 2020. Don't step in the designated craters!

Re:India's mission

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know about you but as a libtard I thank Obama every time my toilet flushes. However, in soviet Russia the toilet thanks me!!

Re:India's mission

[sysrammer]

Butt-a-boom!

Re:India's mission

[blindseer]

The captain goes on his head. The rest of the men go over the side, because they don't have any heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:India's mission

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not about where countries are right now, it's about the trends. As in anything, it's all about the trends. As other countries like India and China trend towards improvements, America trends downward. Half of Americans cheer as Trump puts his own family members into positions of power. The motto of MAGA has been more like MABR "Make America a Banana Republic". America has its own Kim Jong Un and some people are proud of this? Unless the west corrects itself, the east will win out in the next 50-100 years.

Re:India's mission

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, for a country that decided that wiping one's arse with a paper is fine while cleaning out the pot requires a water flush , America has solved the toilet problem, by leaving shit on their arse. I don't suppose your astronauts use wet wipes or a bidet even in space. Talk about a shitty opinion.

To the Moon, Alice!

[turkeydance]

take India, China, and Japan with you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Thanks Obama

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Actually, the reality is that the USA has left space behind.

"From this moment on, it's going to be America First."

"For many decades, we've enriched foreign space industry at the expense of American industry."

"Subsidized the space armies of other countries while allowing for the very sad depletion of our military."

"We've made space rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon."

"I'm gonna build a big-ass honking wall between us and space!"

One Laptop Per Astronaut . . . ?

No space left behind . . . ?

We could be doing cool science like this too!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

If we were not wasting money on manned space flight. What a ridiculous waste of money. 200 Billion dollars for the operational lifetime of the space station alone. Billions more to build the rocket to nowhere and the capsule for nothing...

Re:We could be doing cool science like this too!!!

[thinkwaitfast]

Well, at least we traded it for the SCSC (twenty times more powerful than the LHC).

Re:We could be doing cool science like this too!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, we should be wasting money on all kinds of other things like the military (+$10 Trillion over 20 years), alcohol (~$350 Billion), pool chemicals (~$50 Billion), etc. Of course as both Blue Origin and SpaceX are proving most of that $200B probably went into the bank accounts of defense industry heads, in only a decade SpaceX has cut launch prices in half at worse, possibly by orders of magnitude if they get the bugs worked out of their reusability.

Re:Thanks Obama

[murdocj]

Right... because visiting all of the planets of our solar system, orbiting some of them, landing rovers on Mars, sending probes into interstellar space... none of that counts if we don't occasionally drop a lander on the moon.

Big deal!

[Ol Olsoc]

You go to the moon. We're doing the real high tech work of re-opening coal mines.

Re:Big deal!

[sysrammer]

There you go. We'll still need coal-mining techniques for the moon. You know, to extract all the remains from the dinosaurs that got blown off the planet from the last comet.

Plus, while everybody else is trying to shelter under their solar-panel farms because they forgot how to dig a hole, we'll be living in great underground caverns, housing all of our excess coal-miners from Earth.

Re:Big deal!

[Ol Olsoc]

There you go. We'll still need coal-mining techniques for the moon. You know, to extract all the remains from the dinosaurs that got blown off the planet from the last comet.

Plus, while everybody else is trying to shelter under their solar-panel farms because they forgot how to dig a hole, we'll be living in great underground caverns, housing all of our excess coal-miners from Earth.

I like the spirit of your post, but caution that most of what we do is strip mining or mountain topping.

Re:Big deal!

[blindseer]

It was coal powered industries that took us to the moon. Anyone that thinks we can return to the moon, or go beyond, using windmills and solar collectors is a fool.

We are reaching the physical limits of chemical rockets. We can use chemical rockets to get to the moon and back but if we expect to get people to Mars or Venus then we will need nuclear power. We tried solar power on the moon, on Mars, on comets, and so much more. It turns out that solar power gets pretty weak out at Mars orbit. We lost some very expensive missions because solar power failed. Even past lunar missions used RTGs (Radioisotope thermoelectric generator) for power as critical life systems could not rely on heavy and unreliable chemical or solar power.

We need coal, we need nuclear, we need a true "all the above" energy policy. Fuck our carbon footprint, we're going to Mars!

Re:Big deal!

[DNS-and-BIND]

Man, Trump really triggered you with his sympathy for coal miners. You won't shut up about it, and I see it get injected into irrelevant conversations all the time, which means it's in your brain constantly. Boy, it sure bugs you that those oppressed rural working class people have someone to represent their interests now. Burns you up, 24 hours a day.

Re:Big deal!

[Ol Olsoc]

It was coal powered industries that took us to the moon. Anyone that thinks we can return to the moon, or go beyond, using windmills and solar collectors is a fool.

I'm not certain where I said what you seem to think I said. You need to show me.

Or are you saying that we will not be able to go anywhere now if we don't increase coal production? I can play your game too.

We are reaching the physical limits of chemical rockets. We can use chemical rockets to get to the moon and back but if we expect to get people to Mars or Venus then we will need nuclear power.

We tried solar power on the moon, on Mars, on comets, and so much more. It turns out that solar power gets pretty weak out at Mars orbit.

Sure. But you've made a pretty big strawman out of a lame joke about where America's priorities are now.

Re:Big deal!

[Ol Olsoc]

Man, Trump really triggered you with his sympathy for coal miners.

Triggered is such an amusing word. As for sympathy for out of work coal miners, I live in the area and I have plenty of sympathy for the workers.. I'm also realistic enough to know that we could strip out every bit of coal around here, and they aren't getting their jobs back. Automation allows a few men to blast and strip huge amounts of coal. Hell, the post stripping land reclamation might employ more people.

You won't shut up about it, and I see it get injected into irrelevant conversations all the time, which means it's in your brain constantly.

While your concern for me is touching, it appears you pretty much exemplify the concept of being triggered. Hard to imagine anyone taking my one liner as anything other than a joke, but it has angered you quite a bit. Relax fam. Life can suck, but there's no reason to make it suck worse by walking around looking for something to get outraged about.

Boy, it sure bugs you that those oppressed rural working class people have someone to represent their interests now. Burns you up, 24 hours a day.

I should make a study of the strange strawmen and bizzare and incorrect conclusions that some people can come to in support of self validation.

Well bro, I was born and raised in coal country. Many of my relatives worked the mines, and a few died in them. I could have gone to work in either the limestone mines or coal fields, but the writing was on the wall even way back in the late 60's. This was a field that was going to lose people. The draglines were getting bigger, and the archchetype of hundreds of coaldust covered men working away underground with steam drills was fading fast.

I got out. Turned out I made the right choice based on rational decisions, not inertia or thinking that everything was going to stay the same. Today in either field, a few men can harvest in weeks what used to take hundreds of them decades to remove. The jobs are not coming back, and the very few new ones will require moving away from family, which is not popular.

If we want to help these people, we need to steer them towards fields that are going to employ people. Makes sense maybe?

Unless you are encouraging a makework project the likes that old FDR would love, where we revert to pre steam drill days, and start shaft mining again, men using pick and shovel and donkey carts to remove the coal. Those little donkeys were cute for sure. That would be pretty socialist. But it would employ a lot of people.

Regardless fam, you should stop projecting your anger onto me. Simple jokes are meant to be laughed or groaned at, not to have you pretend I am angry and "triggered" when it is pretty obvious that person is you. Laugh a little at life, it is absurd.

Re:Big deal!

[DNS-and-BIND]

Well if you actually have any sympathy, you might want to lay off taking cheap shots at them. Just a thought. DURR HURR COAL HURR in a conversation about India and China's moon missions. Super-off topic and inflammatory.

Re:Big deal!

[Ol Olsoc]

Well if you actually have any sympathy, you might want to lay off taking cheap shots at them. Just a thought. DURR HURR COAL HURR in a conversation about India and China's moon missions. Super-off topic and inflammatory.

You don't even know who I am taking the shots at. Just as a refresher, The present administration cynically used the concept of putting coal miners back to work in an effort to procure votes in the states that were affected by the downturn in the coal industry.

For anyone keeping up with the news - why it wasn't obvious that they were the ones I was aiming at is curious to me, but I guess you must know on some level, given your umbrage.

The fix for disappearing coal miner jobs is to enable employment opportunities for them in other industries.

It is not repairable by a return to the 1950's. Which is the crux of my lame joke, that other countries are going to overtake us while we're busy trying to relive the past.

That is all. Enjoy your anger.

Re:Big deal!

[DNS-and-BIND]

Yeah! Because all a 54 year old father of three needs to do is move to New York City, call around to some friends, and get a job in publishing.

A lot of people there were really optimistic that the solution to technological unemployment was to teach unemployed West Virginia truck drivers to code so they could participate in the AI revolution. I used to think this was a weird straw man occasionally trotted out by Freddie deBoer, but all these top economists were *super enthusiastic* about old white guys whose mill has fallen on hard times founding the next generation of nimble tech startups.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017...

Re:Big deal!

[Anonymous Coward]

Coal is great for kickstarting and running the initial stages of an industrial society, but using it long term makes about as much sense as continuing to transport people with blimps and oceanliners when passenger jets are available.

Re:Big deal!

[david_thornley]

That's true regardless of whether Trump or Clinton or Superman is President (OK, Superman's not native born...). Getting a new job is going to be hard, and technologically displaced people need serious assistance.

However, Trump's the one talking about getting the mines open again and the coal mining jobs back, and that very simply isn't going to happen, and Trump doesn't want it to anyway. That gives false hope, and diverts people's attention from what needs to be done to help these people.

Fundamentally, the ability of someone with few skills to make a decent living just by working hard is going away, and isn't coming back.

Re:Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Justi

[PopeRatzo]

So what are you really trying to say?

Brother, are you really asking an AC troll for clarification?

Re:Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Justi

[50000BTU_barbecue]

I am being silly, aren't I?

Pointless for us to chase

[skam240]

Oh good, we should put a person on the moon soon because other people are doing it, right?

We've already been there a half dozen times. Furthermore, we have limited resources for this type of thing. Is another mission to the moom really worth our time without some sort of concrete goal for the mission?

I think not, NASA has far better uses for its resources

Re: Space is fake. Earth is flat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. Trump once proved the earth is round by flying around it and sleeping with beautiful women everywhere he landed.

Re:Good, America can't afford this nonsense anymor

[Anonymous Coward]

So we spent too much on war and now we can't afford spaceflight? Or are you saying we should not spend the trillions on spaceflight, so that we can spend it on wars?

Come on, General; you can spare a few billion!

Re:Thanks Obama

[LifesABeach]

I'm planning on a trip to the moon. I'm just waiting for the price to go down, in the off season.

Re:Thanks Obama

[thrich81]

Thanks for that, it needs to be said every time an article like this comes up, it seems. And, it's not like the US has abandoned the moon; NASA has had the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter operating in orbit around the moon since 2009 where it is still operating and returning scientific observations. And NASA has the two ARTEMIS (Acceleration, Reconnection, Turbulence and Electrodynamics of the Moon's Interaction with the Sun) spacecraft operating in orbits around the Earth-Moon L1 and L2 Lagrangian points (https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/themis/news/artemis-orbit.html)! So that makes three NASA lunar observing satellites currently in operation.

Re: Thanks Obama

[dougdonovan]

lets hope india "stays" on the moon.

Re: Space is fake. Earth is flat.

[sysrammer]

Trolls are answering trolls now. We need to create a honeypot somewhere to distract them to.

India, China, Japan...

[wisebabo]

... and Elon Musk! I think I read that he might be sending a manned spacecraft around the moon (and back).

Seriously, I'm not too worried (or impressed) by other nations repeating something that the U.S. did fifty years ago and that now a private citizen is developing the technology to do himself (ok his company).

And even if India's effort is cheaper than a NEW falcon heavy, will it be cheaper than one of his reused rockets? One that's been flown a few times? A dozen times? Once these space powers make reusable rockets, I'll be more worried but I won't be (as) impressed. Why? Because as I think most engineers will tell you, just KNOWING that something that was previously thought impossible/extremely difficult is doable is half the battle (and that's assuming that these nations intelligence agencies haven't already stolen all of Space-X's plans). (That's why the Russian Concordski and Rutan weren't as impressive as the originals. However Sputnik certainly was!)

Can I join in?

[Gabest]

I am also planning a moon mission. My piggy bank is already half full.

Re: Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Just

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks Obama for helping the commercial spaceflight companies get off the ground, investing in actual science rather than publicity and proving a Black man can be just as good if not even better than a White president. Also a big thanks to Trump for showing that White supremecy is a myth. I mean one look at that bufoon and people can no longer take the idea of "master" race seriously anymore.

Re:Thanks Obama

[iggymanz]

left space behind? I'm pretty we have a few missions in progress right now, with a few more exciting ones launching next year even.

Re: Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

racist? or asshole?

Re: Thanks Obama

[yes-but-no]

I believe India crashed an orbiter onto moon; a far cry from "landing"

Re:Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you have to start somewhere. Besides, it isn't as if the US has shared all of the data and experience they gathered 50 years ago with the rest of the world.

Good for India, China and Japan. American arrogance has left us with an Idiot in Charge, a crippled Space Program, and a dependence on Russia to fly to the ISS.

Some Earth zones are contaminated.

[slew]

In the Moon there are Plutonium traces from the past lunar missions.

On the Earth, there are Plutonium traces from the past nuclear accidents/tests.

At least on the Moon, we *know* that radiation exposure from any Plutonium contamination is orders of magnitude lower than exposure someone would get from *natural* radiation sources (e.g. cosmic rays, solar particles, etc) since unlike the Earth, the Moon has no magnetic field to protect it.

Re:Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

a crippled Space Program, and a dependence on Russia to fly to the ISS.

More like the American People have other spending priorities right now besides repeating the same tired experiments ad-nauseum on manned space flights that reveal little or nothing new. The future of humanity is not in space right now and won't be for the foreseeable future. We have serious problems on this planet right here and right now, beginning with climate change and wholesale destruction of the natural environment. We're not going to fly to a new earth any time soon and certainly not before this one is beyond repair at the rate we're going. Manned space flight is a distraction for us. It's a luxury that we can no longer afford and we ought not, in my opinion, to be throwing good money after bad on the ISS or any other manned space flight project until we've stabilized the climate and cleaned up this planet and have an interstellar drive and somewhere interesting to go. I doubt that either of these goals will be met in our lifetimes and it's our responsibility now to ensure the long term survival of the species, not to waste more time in earth orbit or traveling to dead worlds in our own solar system. Space is a clear loser from a net energy perspective given our current level of technology and understanding: Do the Math - Why Not Space?. To suggest otherwise is fantasy.

Re: Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Re:Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

But knowing how crickets pee in space enriches all of humanity and spreads good will (except throughout the cricket community).

Re: Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Jus

[Anonymous Coward]

Obama's legacy? "You didn't build that."

Re:Thanks Obama

[haruchai]

"More like the American People have other spending priorities right now"
Right now? When was the last time America didn't have "other spending priorities"?
Considering that it's in 31st place globally for life expectancy, right above CUBA, for fuck's sake, those "other spending priorities" need to be looked at.

Re:Thanks Obama

[ChatHuant]

Look, space is nice and stuff, but the country has finite resources and they must be used on the most urgent issues. Rich folks desperately need a tax cut right now, so let Japan or India go to the moon while American leaders focus on the important things.

Re:Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Those 'missions' have been in progress for 30 years. Nothing comes of it.

Why is space/orbit travel/transport still leagal?

[Anonymous Coward]

No more space travel until we solve the CO2 emission problem! They are killing us all just for a few satellites and "fun" missions/probes.

Re: Thanks Obama

[Anonymous Coward]

Racehole

Re: Space is fake. Earth is flat.

[Anonymous Coward]

> Trolls are answering trolls now. We need to create a honeypot somewhere to distract them to.

Don't tell anyone, but this is exactly the point of Slashdot.

Re:Meanwhile, America/Europe planning Social Justi

[KingBenny]

i, for one welcome our new competititve overlords but it always strikes me at funny how both the united lobbies and the free world actually never make the slightest mention of the EU (which is lol, and 15 years ago when i was shouting that i needed to get out of here they just chained me to the place somehow) ...
and thats the less funny bit ... (but we do have lenghty government sessions on wether you're allowed to listen to your mp3 in france if you bought it in americas)
thats a fact .... and i hear in Paris the terrorists have gained a sense of community too, they try shooting cops over civilians now for a while ... and STILL, it wasnt the chinese who invented them right, but you can't say that, cos that's anti-american and "ARE YOU ONE OF THEM PERHAPS" ?
and Trump had drones , right ? who cares about sustainaility, anyone remember colonel Santiago from the sid meyer game ? the apex of military power ?
well today the apex of military power is a base on the moon and a sattelite web cos if you can't even launch your nuke 100 meters far then what are all your fighter jets for LOL
but lets be PC, and lets kick those mexicans and trannies out, first, you're right

Re: Thanks Obama

[leslie.satenstein]

Sadly, because of the current USA foreign policy and the undoing of signed agreements, the. USA has lost it's number one position in the world. Countries are aligning themselves with the new number one. Number one today is China. China has a word, and keeps it.

No, the CIA kept space from us

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't look now but NASA's job was to conceal the military slavenet being built. We aren't going to the moon. Or Mars. Or anywhere "up there". Just the Book of Revelation "down here". The projects you're working on for your day job will be meaningless garbage when the real tech asserts itself.

Re:Thanks Obama

[iggymanz]

You are very ignorant of the U.S. space program's extent, plenty of missions have been recently launched. Plenty in 2016, plenty in 2015, etc. etc.

Troll!

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I sorta agree with your message that optimism and adaptability are key messages to youth. But then you reveal your trollish attitudes and perspective.

Let's see, "a slow, perhaps mythical, rise in sea level...", "trivial problems...", "you are living in the lap of luxury and security..", oh and climate change is nothing but "a computer simulation".

Do you know how our parents and grandparents survived? By doing what they could to better themselves. Do you know how medieval Europeans survived the plague? By instituting public health initiatives. They wouldn't have called them public health initiatives, but that's what they were. Stop overcrowding cities so much. Stop pouring sewage in the streets. Get regular garbage collection going. That sort of thing.

See, you don't want climate change to be real and therefore you (and your children) don't have to do anything about it. It's not a problem folks! We can sit on our ass and complain about all the brown people!

Therefore your real message isn't "be adaptable and optimistic", it is "ideological reality is the only reality, and fuck anyone who says otherwise!"

Re:Thanks Obama

[haruchai]

"Rich folks desperately need a tax cut right now"
Agreed. Give us your tired, your think-they're-so poor, huddled masses of triggered billionaires, yearning to be tax-free.
And what about that extra $1.5 trillion hole that will find its way into the debt as a result, while the Party of Fiscal & Personal Responsibility holds sway?
Er, well,erm... BENGHAZI, URANIUM ONE, LOCK HER UP....why, oh why, is the DOJ not investigating Crooked Hillary??