Self-Driving Shuttle Involved In Crash Two Hours After Debut (www.cbc.ca)

New submitter Northern Pike writes: Las Vegas roll out of new driver-less shuttle spoiled by human error. It sounds like the shuttle did what it was designed to do but the human semi driver wasn't as careful. "The shuttle did what it was supposed to do, in that it's (sic) sensors registered the truck and the shuttle stopped to avoid the accident," the city said in a statement. "Unfortunately the delivery truck did not stop and grazed the front fender of the shuttle. Had the truck had the same sensing equipment that the shuttle has the accident would have been avoided." The self-driving shuttle can transport up to 12 people and has a attendant and computer monitor, but no steering wheel and no brake pedals. It relies heavily on GPS, electronic curb sensors and other technology to make its way.

Comments

Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Tulsa_Time]

I wonder if the shuttle doing the right thing was what the human driver expected.... maybe their algorithms are incompatible.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[jtara]

The AI switched from human emulation mode to the Deer in Headlights program...

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[exodus2]

The story says it stopped moving and the truck backed into it. I wonder if there was a horn option in the software.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Pentium100]

Also, maybe if the shuttle had a human driver, he would have been more careful near a semi truck and stopped further from it. I assume that the visibility from a big truck is quite poor and keep my distance.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Rob Y.]

In any case, unless this was a freaky situation, I'm gonna guess a human driver of the shuttle would've not gotten into the accident. So maybe hitting the brakes and stopping isn't enough of an algorithm to let this thing loose in the real world. Calling this human error is giving the algorithm a bit too much benefit of the doubt.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[HornWumpus]

Not what the pictures show.

The shuttle bus drove right up to the side of a backing semi then stopped right behind the angled front wheel. You wouldn't have done that, because you could understand the truck drivers plan at a glance (and presumably aren't an asshole). Also because you would understand that the fastest way past was to let the truck finish backing up.

The trucker should have stopped and waited for the shuttle to back away. But the shuttle shouldn't have said 'my right of way' until it achieved gridlock. A human that did what the shuttle did is an asshole.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Darinbob]

And yet the truck driver got the traffic ticket. Next phase of AI is realizing that humans routinely ignore the traffic laws.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[DarkOx]

Exactly sounds like the shuttle just stopped, when a human might have steered to the edge of the lane or onto the shoulder to avoid being "grazed"

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[cayenne8]

Trouble is....I can see it coming....there will be movement to get human driving of cars made illegal and then ONLY AI vehicles will be able to run on the public roads.

A sad day, as that I just bought a new FUN driving car yesterday.....I hope that I'll be long dead and gone before the scenario above plays out, but I see it coming.

[goes and throws on Red Barchetta....]

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Motard]

From the story...

NASCAR driver Danica Patrick and magic duo Penn and Teller were among the first passengers.

Penn Jillette has a podcast where he said he wanted to be one the the first to ride on it, It's almost certain he'll be talking about it there on Sunday. It's called Penn's Sunday School.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[TechyImmigrant]

Also, maybe if the shuttle had a human driver, he would have been more careful near a semi truck and stopped further from it. I assume that the visibility from a big truck is quite poor and keep my distance.

Yes this same thing happened to my mom some time ago, and she said she would have stopped further back if she had seen it coming (dump truck); then she got pinched in by other construction vehicles, and an asshat tailgating behind-and still the flagger didn't shout to the damn truck. Luckily it was quickly settled, and my mom was physically unhurt, though shook up!

And my mother too. All the people on the street were yelling at the asshat reversing into my mother's car that was pinched between two commercial vehicles, but the asshat continued reversing.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[sexconker]

From the story...

NASCAR driver Danica Patrick and magic duo Penn and Teller were among the first passengers.

Penn Jillette has a podcast where he said he wanted to be one the the first to ride on it, It's almost certain he'll be talking about it there on Sunday. It's called Penn's Sunday School.

Conversely, I doubt Teller will have much to say on the matter.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[fluffernutter]

I liked part "note if the truck had the same technology the accident wouldn't have happened". Why the hell does that even matter? Obviously self driving cars aren't going to work unless they can drive with humans.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[BasilBrush]

CPU's can't anticipate? Did anyone tell Deep Blue or the Table Tennis robots?

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Motard]

The scenario that HornWumpus posed is plausible. I don't know that any of us have enough info to say definitively.

However, I have a concern for the truck driver in any event. This is not a typical fender-bender. It's a political situation. The police work for the city. The city approved the shuttle. There's a corporation running that shuttle. And there's a truck driver.

Which one do think is going to be on the losing end of this?

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Dorianny]

Yep risking rolling over a bus full of people to avoid a fender-bender is exactly what a panicked human driver might have done

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[PolygamousRanchKid]

I wonder if there was a horn option in the software.

This is the USA. We have "stand your ground" laws. If another motor vehicle is trying to run you over or back into you, you are permitted to engage with licensed firearms.

Obviously, the Autonomous Defense systems of the new vehicle are not working correctly, or the Self-Driving Shuttle would have flattened the tires of the truck that was attempting to ram it.

More field tests, and plenty of ammo are obviously still needed.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[ShanghaiBill]

Trouble is....I can see it coming....there will be movement to get human driving of cars made illegal and then ONLY AI vehicles will be able to run on the public roads.

This will be a GOOD THING. Once we get the humans off the road, we can make lanes narrower, traffic will flow more smoothly, cars can be made lighter, and traffic lights can be eliminated.

A sad day, as that I just bought a new FUN driving car yesterday.

Why should my tax dollars subsidize your hobby? If you want to drive, do it on a private track.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[mysidia]

Based on the picture; the shuttle should have been cited for pulling up too close to a vehicle moving in conflicting direction to cause a crash, not the truck driver --- sometimes the officer at the scene gets it wrong.

You DON'T pull up to obstruct the passage of the FRONT of a vehicle that is backing up, as the driver will clearly be looking at the path behind their vehicle, not at their front tire section, and you will get hit.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[tehcyder]

Your tax dollars arent subsidizing my hobby you collosal asshat

I think the point is that we taxpayers are providing you with a free racetrack. Which would be a valid argument if no one used the roads except for boy-racers, and there were no commuters, people shopping, trucks delivering goods etc.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[tehcyder]

the 75% of the world who actually like driving manually (or at least like having the option)

You can't argue against solid statistics like that!

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[nukenerd]

Your tax dollars arent subsidizing my hobby you collosal asshat

Doesn't he pay road tax (or call it whatever else you like) in your country? in the UK I am paying through my VED (Vehicle Excise Duty) about 1 pound for every 10 miles I drive. That is in addition to the tax on fuel.

Re:Human reaction vs machine reaction

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

Why should my tax dollars subsidize your hobby?

I think forcing self-driving cars on people is infringing on their right to travel. If I'm not in control of the car - if the company that made it, or the government, or hackers or whatever, can make it take me somewhere other than my intended destination - then you've effectively turned travel into a privilege instead of a right.

Not ready yet.

[Fly Swatter]

Had the truck had the same sensing equipment that the shuttle has the accident would have been avoided.

If the shuttle had the same sensing equipment as the truck has the accident would have been avoided (ftfy). A human would have laid into the horn as the truck got closer to alert him hes about to hit someone. A human would also have seen the truck backing in and yielded a larger room for error. An alert human may also see the situation that they could quickly back up a bit before the truck hit them. (per article trucker was cited for illegal backing (up?). This isn't ready in my opinion, but a nice alpha test though.

Re:Not ready yet.

[fluffernutter]

The problem is, autonomous vehicles don't have fear. They need fear of financial or physical harm in order to drive like humans.

Re:Not ready yet.

[l20502]

When in doubt use some cameras to detect fear in passengers and what they're looking at

DIfference between a normal vehicle and victim

[idontgno]

The victim self-driving shuttle bus didn't try to back away from being run over. According to reports, it couldn't for unspecified reasons. (I speculate that the autonomous logic or arrangement of sensors didn't adequately cover "going into reverse.")

Someone up-topic asked about sounding a horn. I haven't heard any press reporting that the autonomous vehicle tried.

Either case (if true) represent a difference between how the self-driving logic reacted and how a human driver would probably have. This tells me unless an autono-car can do everything a human driver can, at least as well as a human driver (admittedly a low bar), it shouldn't be on the streets. There will always be corner conditions; they have to be handled as well by the robot as they would be by a human.

Two takeaways

[93 Escort Wagon]

1) Robotic vehicles need a horn - and additional logic to handle when to sound it.

2) Robotic vehicles would benefit from the addition of a mechanical arm with a mechanical middle finger - for these sorts of post-accident situations.

Re:Two takeaways

[Obfuscant]

2) Robotic vehicles would benefit from the addition of a mechanical arm with a mechanical middle finger

If you are an asshole and pull up to a truck in such a way that he cannot continue the maneuver he was trying to perform, which would have gotten him out of your way, then you deserve the finger, not the truck driver.

If a large truck is making a right turn and has moved into the left lane so he could accomplish that without running over the curb or other cars, it is an asshole who pulls up as far as he can go in the right lane to prevent the truck from completing the turn and causing a traffic jam, even if the car in the right lane technically has the right of way over the truck. Unfortunately, "asshole" is not a ticketable offense.

A human would have identified the situation and remained clear. The AI assumed it had the right of way and did not. It doesn't matter in the end if the AI did or did not have the right of way, proper defensive driving would have prevent the accident altogether. "Being right" isn't always better than "being safe".

As to the snarky comment by someone else that going a couple of hours in Las Vegas without a fender bender is better than humans can do, I'll just point out that I've driven for hundreds of hours in Las Vegas and have neither run into anyone else, nor have I had anyone run into me.

Edge cases

[fluffernutter]

How many comments have I seen on Slashdot asking if all edge cases have *really* been tested? Well it turns out everyone was right in this case. I mean, was this AI tested on real streets at all? It's hard to imagine a car on the road for more than a month wouldn't have had a truck pull out in front of it unexpectedly a couple times. It doesn't matter how fast the AI brain is, this is a case where anticipation may have helped. I just feel bad for the truck driver. Yes, he was in the wrong but a lot of times driving a big truck you have to maneuver this way and rely on other cars working with you a little bit.

Re:Human Driver Collides With Self-Driving Shuttle

[fluffernutter]

The truck driver was in the wrong, yes, but self driving cars can't just check out if in an unexpected situation. They still have to try to avoid an accident like a human would. You want to live in a world where self driving vehicles run people over because they were crossing the street illegally?

Re:Human Driver Collides With Self-Driving Shuttle

[fluffernutter]

The point is that they have to include in their parameters the possibility that humans may break laws. If this is so confusing for them that hey 'just stop' they will very definitely do more harm than good.

Bullshit

[Rick Schumann]

Had the truck had the same sensing equipment that the shuttle has the accident would have been avoided."

If the shuttle had a human driver the entire incident would never have happened because the half-assed excuse for 'AI' they keep trotting out can't actually THINK.

AI doesn't understand people

[gillbates]

A large part of the fact that I've managed to avoid accidents for so long is the fact that, as a human, I understand how other humans are likely to act and react.

The problem with AI drivers is that humans only loosely follow the rules of the road; their actions are driven multiple influences, and understanding what another human is likely to do in any given situation requires being a human being. For example, consider the following:

• Who, but an AI, would actually drive the speed limit in the hammer lane?
• In the case of a driver ahead slowing down because of the presence of children, would the AI know to slow down gradually, so as not to create a risk of collision to the cars behind?
• Would an AI know how to modulate its breaking in an emergency stop so that it neither struck the vehicle ahead, nor was struck by the vehicle behind? Would it understand that in such a situation, even if it could stop completely, that a better course of action might be to pull to the shoulder so that an impending collision behind it could be avoided?
• Would an AI know that a driver is likely to stop for the geese crossing the road? (which, btw, is required by law).

I'm sure there are dozens of other similar cases, but you get the point. AI might understand, in the nominal sense, how to drive a car. What it can't understand is what other drivers are likely to do.