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'I See Things Differently': James Damore on his Autism and the Google Memo (theguardian.com)
"James Damore opens up about his regrets -- and how autism may have shaped his experience of the world," writes the west coast bureau chief for the Guardian. An anonymous reader quotes their report:
The experience has prompted some introspection. In the course of several weeks of conversation using Google's instant messaging service, which Damore prefers to face-to-face communication, he opened up about an autism diagnosis that may in part explain the difficulties he experienced with his memo. He believes he has a problem understanding how his words will be interpreted by other people... It wasn't until his mid-20s, after completing research in computational biology at Princeton and MIT, and starting a PhD at Harvard, that Damore was diagnosed with autism, although he was told he had a milder version of the condition known as "high-functioning autism"...
Damore argues that Google's focus on avoiding "micro-aggressions" is "much harder for someone with autism to follow". But he stops short of saying autistic employees should be given more leniency if they unintentionally offend people at work. "I wouldn't necessarily treat someone differently," he explains. "But it definitely helps to understand where they're coming from." I ask Damore if, looking back over the last few months, he feels that his difficult experience with the memo and social media may be related to being on the spectrum. "Yeah, there's definitely been some self-reflection," he says. "Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that's not something that I excel at -- although I'm working on it."
Damore argues that Google's focus on avoiding "micro-aggressions" is "much harder for someone with autism to follow". But he stops short of saying autistic employees should be given more leniency if they unintentionally offend people at work. "I wouldn't necessarily treat someone differently," he explains. "But it definitely helps to understand where they're coming from." I ask Damore if, looking back over the last few months, he feels that his difficult experience with the memo and social media may be related to being on the spectrum. "Yeah, there's definitely been some self-reflection," he says. "Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that's not something that I excel at -- although I'm working on it."
implication that a rational argument should not be offered (and should be regretted once offered)because it would hurt feelings is not acceptable. autistic state of author of argument is irrelevant.
That's why when I attend funerals, I make a speech suggesting that there is no evidence of an afterlife, and that the deceased's death was objectively meaningless. Don't even ask what I say at weddings.
Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
I don't he's right in this regard. His original analysis of intellectual monoculture was better. I say this because also normal people are also having similar problems. I think the line of reasoning proposed by Mr. Damore here is dangerous as it implies that difficulties to conform to the lunacy of this new authorian left is some sort of mental illness. We've seen that before and it wasn't pretty.
Knowing what angers the modern intelligenzia requires constant following of their social media environment. I believe that is, in part, the purpose of the whole thing. For example, they don't make noice about trans-people because they are worried about their well being. (If they would, they would ask them for an opinion and figure out quite quickly that they don't want to be the battle ground of the next proxy culture war. On the contrary, they want to be left alone.) The whole point is to signal ideolgical group identity and demand conformity.
According to my psychologist, it's the same thing.
Yes, they are the same thing, but "Aspergers" has been dropped from the DSM, so "high-functioning autism" is now the technically correct term.
Damore's memo was just misogynist bullshit.
That's a very cheap claim to make without any reasoning. That's probably it's so popular on Twitter and such (mostly because reasoning doesn't fit into 140 characters).
It's certainly not an excuse that deserves instant forgiveness, he'll have to do a fuck of a lot more than that.?
He doesn't need any excuse or forgiveness. It's not like he stole something or killed someone.
Ezekiel 23:20
He wanted the most attention though. It was a totally voluntary thing he did.
He wanted the most attention, so he posted something in a closed newsgroup? What kind of logic is that?
Posted as A.C. for obvious reasons.
What obvious reasons, BeauHD (1)?
Ezekiel 23:20
Wow saying men and women are different and have different abilities and interests is misogynistic ?
Thankfully this sort of stupidity's days are numbered and the number is a small one.
> If you want to see why there was such a backlash to his memo, I think it can be made clearer in light of the #metoo discussion we are presently having.
I don't see why. The memo didn't deal with rape at work in any kind of way. It had a different subject.
> In the case of the major tech firm I used to work for, it was always quietly dealt with or outright swept under the rug, paying a quiet settlement and forcing the victim into a nondisclosure agreement. The victimizer got a slap on the wrist but was consideres too important to let go.
Good on you for speaking out now, then! Instead of, say, standing up for the victims at the time when it actually happened. Really shows what you're made of.
> That's the backdrop for this memo and why it landed with a wet splat. It is callous to those who have had illegal things done to them against their will at work.
Nope. Because this memo was not about rape at work.
> I don't have much sympathy for DaMoore, he could have made his helpful suggestions directly to HR. He wanted the most attention though.
No; he was taking part in an ongoing internal discussion and posting a _reply_ on an _internal_ forum in Google. He was not the person who broke company confidentiality and posted it on the internet. Incidentally, was this person ever found and punished?
> goatse
And don't forget to mention his KKK-membership, his nazi sympathies, the fact that he eats baby pandas every sunday, and the fact that he is a known child molester. Geez...
I don't share your optimism. A very large number of people is deeply invested in the idea that society can be created as an utopia. They feel actively threatened by statements contradicting that view, and will not stop at anything to destroy the threat.
Damore's memo was not only factual but about as uncontroversial, well-written, and polite as a memo could be. The fact that one of the world's most powerful companies is being managed by emotional infants, that feeling leaders (I won't call them "thought leaders") are pressuring him to recant, and that even on Slashdot there are people attacking him, is pathetic and embarrassing.
If humanity is too emotional to even deal with obvious, mundane, and benign facts, there isn't much to say in favor of humanity.
Maybe the problem isn't with autists, but with the absurdly defective normies.
Damore's memo was just misogynist bullshi
I actually found it rather presidential...
Nobody gave a flying fuck when Amy Schumer and Lena Dunham openly admitted to being rapists and pedophiles. Nobody cared when Amherst expelled a man who was raped while unconscious because his rapists claimed to have "withdrawn consent".
Your entire argument falls flat on its face when confronted with reality. This isn't about victims or equality, it's a witch hunt where all it takes is a social media post to ruin people's entire lives and career without a shred of evidence. Hell a Welsh Labor MP killed himself because he was suspended on charges he wasn't even allowed to know. We've literally hit the point where people are having their lives ruined and aren't even allowed to know what they're being accused of.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
I love watching people like you try so desperately to flip the term "snowflake" around that, like every other slur you've invented, you just throw it randomly in sentences as a sort of generic grammatical exclamation point.
Also those two tweets are both perfectly rational and one is supported by so much hard data that it's an entire field of research unto itself in political science. Right up through the end of the Vietnam war, and continuing today in less developed countries, women were and are substantially more conservative socially and politically than men. This is an objective fact. It's a direct result of the fact that those roles evolved over thousands upon thousands of years to ensure human survival during the millenia we went without modern medicine and birth control and an information-age economy.
As for not challenging women just look at what happens to people that do. Literally an entire slur has been invented just to silence people who disagree with women about anything, anytime, anywhere, under any circumstances.
A bullet may have your name on it but splash damage is addressed "To whom it may concern."
... that the people who are loudest in claiming to be highly empathetic never make the slightest effort to empathize with those who are not naturally empathetic. Isn't that odd?
And if we are so enthusiastic for inclusiveness and diversity and not offending anyone, how come there is no tolerance of those who identify as autistic or near-autistic?
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
Funny you should say that. Consider the possibility that there are, in fact, a lot of people - including some of the most useful members of society - who are hardly ever noticed and rarely get credit for anything, because they are naturally quiet and shy.
Meanwhile, the small minority of loud, self-advertising extroverts get away with persuading everyone that they are the only people who count. Everything in modern Western (especially US) culture glorifies the extrovert. Yet it seems likely that at least half of the population consists of those who are, to some degree at least, introverted.
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
Are you saying that testosterone and estrogen don't give men and women different benefits? Men, on average, have significantly higher levels of testosterone than women. Woman, on average, have significantly higher levels of estrogen than men. These biological differences make them better and worse at different things. It's an objective fact.
All you've done is rephrase it so someone's PC narrative mind doesn't get hurt in the process, to which I say, who cares?
His memo was fine. There was only controversy because it was misrepresented completely. Plenty of non-autistic people get hit by this type of witch hunt and they also tend to have difficulty seeing it coming.
It's entirely inflammatory and malicious because you're trying to paint him as an asshole. If we remove the "feelings" factor from the KKK portion, many geeks / nerds will find titles like "grand wizard" pretty cool. It's not hard to see that point. You're being the snowflake by over reacting to it and spinning a narrative to paint the guy in a negative light. Your post was modded correctly. Perhaps understanding nuance in a persons statements rather than kowtowing to a PC narrative would suit you better long term.
Calling something "flamebait" doesn't mean it's offensive. Calling it flamebait means you think it's something that's done with malicious intent. Here you go again, trying to insert feelings into an argument.
If I say that you, personally, Kneo24, whoever the fuck you are in real life, are a fucking moron then that's not sexist. That's just a factual observation.
That's a subjective observation.
Not a single thing you wrote covers the fact that men and women are different, in part, due to biology. You're not even trying to refute it. No, instead, you would rather sort to name calling and telling me to fuck off precisely because you don't have an argument.
Flamebait means it is designed to provoke an emotional response, specifically offense and anger.
Yes, that sounds like someone might have some malicious intent in their actions through and through.
Calling something flamebait is literally saying it offends you.
That's not necessarily true. You can see things as a malicious act and not be offended by it. You don't need to deal in absolutes here.
The correct response is to post a rebuttal. A rebuttal to the actual argument, not an accusation of malice.
You aren't the thought police. You don't get to decide what is and isn't the correct response. It's frowned upon to moderate and comment (anonymously). It's always been that way. This is why you can't comment and post under your username in the same discussions. If you do, it undoes any moderation that you did. You get to choose one option. Some people chose to moderate the content of your posts. Deal with it.
The memo dealt with males and females having different needs and strengths and in order to get a more balanced workforce, the work and workplace would have to adapt to that.
I don't remember there being ANYTHING about sexual attention forced on another.
Their logic, and it's stretching the definition of the word, is along these lines:
Normal person: Men are generally taller than women.
SJW: What, like Danny DeVito and Michelle Obama?
Then something gets designed that's unusable because anthropometry is fundamentally racist, because it just is.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
I am autistic and I too have that same difficulty that James Damore has. I always have someone else look at a letter or document first to get their interpretation, even when I am invited to give my own unadulterated opinion. Why? Well, in the neurotypical (i.e. non-autistic) world people rarely say what they mean. The hidden meaning behind this opinion invitation could be, "Please compliment and flatter my decision or do not bother me. You risk sneaky retaliation if you disagree." I have to remember that the workplace is not a democracy, and in rigid oligarchies, you tow the line or your expunged.
James Damore made the classic mistake that some high functioning autistics make, they fire from the hip and sometimes act impulsively in matters that they are unable to understand or visualize the ultimate outcome. I found that it was key to recognizing this to make my behaviour more socially acceptable and I had to learn how to put myself in someone else's shoes, so to speak. If I have to send a letter or document that I even suspect might offend or alienate, I *always* have a neutral third party read it and then tell me their interpretation. Also, like some people on the sprectrum, I tend to have no filter and do not suffer fools very well so I have to take extra caution when dealing with people so I do not alienate them.
I actually suspect that James Damore was not really fired as a result of his memo itself but rather as a result of a behavioral-threat model. Damore's memo might have erroneously pinged a warning sign for workplace violence and Google let him go out of an abundance of caution. This is also the problem with the classic behavioral-threat model, it is geared towards analysis of non-autistic behaviour. Autistic behaviour could easily be misinterpreted as potentially dangerous. Most autistics however do not suffer from anti-social personality disorder or psychopathy. The differences between classic autism and Anti-Social Personality Disorder are rather stark. The easiest way for Google to rid itself of this perceived threat was just to terminate him for discrimination.
Its so easy to spout the usual "no it wasn't" line when your position is criticised, slightly less easy to google for an answer. So I did it for you.
https://thoughtcatalog.com/ano...
One day Matt calls her at 8 am, inviting Amy over to his dorm room. When Amy goes to his dorm room, she immediately recognizes that he is drunk:
I won't give you all the details, but it is important to note that Matt was repeatedly falling asleep during the encounter, according to Amy's story. It gives an indication as to how impaired Matt was, and how Amy let it continue despite the interruptions.
Now is that rape? If not, then all those other cases of men having intercourse with women who were drunk can't be considered rape either.
Lena Dunham though, I can't find any case there except for her defence of a Girls' Writer who was accused.
Well, there's your problem. You're working on your problem using Excel.
#DeleteFacebook
Right. But people didn't say "Oh you ignored this study, here's a link". They just tried to silence him by getting him fired. Gizmodo accused him of writing an 'anti diversity screed', and reproduced it without any of the charts and hyperlinks
https://gizmodo.com/exclusive-...
Vox called it a 'sexist screed' and said it reflected a 'divided tech culture' and said it ignored 'well documented gender biases'
https://www.vox.com/identities...
Vox didn't try to address his arguments, they all said he was
The memo's stereotype-based arguments and cries for less empathy sparked immediate controversy
In Damore's memo, he states that women are more "neurotic" and have a lower "stress tolerance" than men, and that these characteristics - not systemic harassment, routinely being passed over for promotions, or other well-documented instances of sexism in tech culture - are the reason why women do not succeed as often as men do in the high-pressure industry.
He also argues that men have a "higher drive for status" than women, and suggests that this factor, rather than well-documented gender biases in the workplace, may be responsible for the lack of women in leadership positions both at Google and in the tech industry as a whole.
Finally, Damore calls for Google to "De-empathize empathy," arguing that "being emotionally unengaged [with the issue of diversity] helps us better reason about the facts." He decries political correctness, discounting the very concept of unconscious bias and arguing against unconscious bias training for Google employees.
Google's VP of diversity said it 'it advanced incorrect assumptions about gender. and also refused to link to it because "itâ(TM)s not a viewpoint that I or this company endorses, promotes or encourages". I.e. no one addressed his arguments - they caricatured them and effectively labelled him a heretic to the diverse faith.
And you haven't addressed his arguments. You put rational is scare quotes, implying he's actually motivated by sexism.
And I think we can all agree that as traumatic as being downvoted on slashdot is, it's not as bad as being fired. Also look at the the difference in institutional power between the two sides of the argument. The CEO and VP on one side and some hapless engineer on the other. As soon as the engineer disagreed with them, they fired him. Which was a sign to other engineers not to argue with their ideas.
Not to mention most of the media immediately sided with Google and denounced him.
In the old days the left would say that racism/sexism was 'prejudice plus power'. I.e. that white men could be sexist and racist because they held institutional power, but non whites and non men could not be because they did not. The problem with that is that the left holds institutional power these days, at least in the media and at Google. So in that case Damore could at worse be prejudiced, not actually sexist.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
For example, he says that women are on average more neurotic
Actually, he quotes well-established and absolutely solid science that says that "women score higher on neuroticism". That is a bit different from your statement. And it happens to be a verifiable fact. Your whole wording screams "lie" when seen in comparison to what he actually said.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Scientist, biologist, realist...
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
> If you want to see why there was such a backlash to his memo, I think it can be made clearer in light of the #metoo discussion we are presently having.
I don't see why. The memo didn't deal with rape at work in any kind of way. It had a different subject.
It's the narrative. His opinion doesn't fit the narrative.
Trying to make Damore's memo the equivalent of meetoo or whatever indignity women have ever suffered is an example of howaboutism, which is usually aimed at conservatives, but it turns out that liberals are just as prone to it. A memo or email pointing out possible differences between the sexes does not fit the narrative that there is no difference at all between males and females except that instilled culturally by the patriarchy."
This memo != Harvey Weinstein's disgusting behavior. This memo != Roy Moore's penchant for underage girls.
What this memo and equating it to meetoo is - Howaboutism, and a great example of it.
If Damore was insinuating himself in a sexual manner on female employees, there aren't many of us who would stand up for him. But that isn't what he did. He wrote forbidden words. Some people didn't like those forbidden words. They don't fit the narrative. Conform or be cast out.
To broad brush this memo into Damore is a sexual predator because Harvey Weinstein or Roy Moore is bigotry, stereotyping men as all sexual predators. It may or may not be legal bigotry, but it is bigotry nonetheless.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
He wrote forbidden words. Some people didn't like those forbidden words.
He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-Thomas Paine
“When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”
George R.R. Martin
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
people break NDAs privately to their friends all the fucking time.
Sounds like a character issue. I wouldn't trust a person who violates an NDA.
True that. The leakers who intentionally got him fired for an internal memo need to be outed and canned.
Problem is, they have a permitted opinion that fits well within the allowable narrative. When you have a permitted opinion, you are allowed to commit any atrocity, and you will be praised for it. The people who published his unpermitted opinion are praised as heroes.
This is not a right or a left issue, it is an issue that speaks to bigoted intolerance, where one is cast out if one does not adhere to dogma.
All it would have taken is a reasoned argument against him in a rational world. Firing him in an attempt to merely silence him has merely shown that he has said things that they do not want heard.
This is not classified data, this is not encouraging violence, or a call to secede, or commit crimes.
Just some words that appear to be heresy, given the reaction.
It certainly tells you what opinions you are allowed to express.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Way to miss-characterize Damore's memo. Damore's memo wasn't about one's ability to do the work, but that the gender differences means people are more or less inclined towards doing certain tasks. He even suggested ways Google could better reach their lofty goals of gender parity by taking advantage of that.
When you have a permitted opinion, you are allowed to commit any atrocity, and you will be praised for it.
Woah, calm down on the hyperbole there, boy.
Seriously. How do you think religious wars start and have occurred throughout most of history. You simply have your gawd or ideology construct "the other" and then you destroy them.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
...given we're arguing on a thread about something Mr. Damore said, it's not like he's been silenced now is it?
He has been fired for saying something. Other people who may be sharing his concerns will take note, and think twice before raising them. This is effectively shutting up the discussion.
As an aside, the way Google fired Damore for raising concerns in an internal forum specifically presented as a place to raise concerns reminds me irresistibly of this little gem:
"I want someone to tell me", Lieutenant Scheisskopf beseeched to them all prayerfully. "If any of it is my fault, I want to be told."
"He wants someone to tell him," Clevinger said.
"He wants everyone to keep still, idiot," Yossarian answered.
"Didn't you hear him?" Clevinger argued.
"I heard him," Yossarian replied."I heard him say very loudly and very distinctly that he wants every one of us to keep our mouths shut if we know what's good for us."
"I won't punish you", Lieutenant Scheisskopf swore.
"He says he won't punish me", said Clevinger.
"He'll castrate you," said Yosarrian.
"I swear I won't punish you," said Lieutenant Scheisskopf."I'll be grateful to the man who tells me the truth."
"He'll hate you", said Yossarian."To his dying day he'll hate you."