Slashdot Mirror
'The Death of the MBA' (axios.com)
An anonymous reader shares a report: U.S. graduate business schools -- once magnets for American and international students seeking a certain route to a high income -- are in an existential crisis. They are losing droves of students who are balking at sky-high tuition and, in the case of international applicants, turned off by President Trump's politics. The once-venerated MBA is going the way of the diminished law degree, pushed aside by tech education. Graduates of the top 25 or so MBA schools still command the elite Wall Street and corporate jobs they always did, but the hundreds of others are scrambling, and some schools are shutting down their programs. Survivors are often offering new touchy-feely degrees like "master of social innovation." [...] In the more than 350 programs that didn't make the top ranks, rising tuition costs and smaller returns in the form of employment and income have forced a rethink of the traditional MBA degree.
I think that part of the problem with the MBA is that for a while it seemed like everybody was fucking getting one. Laws of supply and demand suggest that would cause the value to diminish unless the demand was increasing similarly. I think the market is just coming around to this realization and reacting in accordance to establish a new equilibrium around what everyone believes is closer to the real value of an MBA.
Apologies, English isn't my first language, does that mean we get to shoot MBAs now or do we still have to wait for them to die naturally?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The MBA schools promoted the ideology of Winner Takes Everything, Cut All Corners, Cook All Books, Outsource the Universe, Price Over Value, Chare the Taxpayer, and Magic Algorithms will Solve Everything.
May they roast slowly in the hell to which they have reduced our inheritance.
Let's not talk about earning potential, that is the yoke of the capitalist. Instead, let's talk about the true value of education, the power of what you learn.
What exactly could you expect to learn from a "master of social engineering?" Forsooth, you'd be better off in a class of Calligraphy, or locking yourself in a room for a year with The Complete Works of Shakespeare.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
So if Trump is responsible for fewer MBAs, he was worth voting for.
Not surprised. MBA programs, like Law programs, were setup left and right by universities as cheap ways to raise funds: they command high tuition while requiring minimal in terms of capital expenditures (compared to say, an engineering program that requires substantial capital for labs and whatnot). Now that the market has become saturated with lawyers and MBA's, people are getting more selective, and the programs without strong reputations will wither away. Add on top of that fewer companies are paying to send their talented employees to get MBA's and the general weakening of the i-banking field, and we just simply don't need as many as we used to have.
I was expecting something a little more dramatic. Maybe an MBA who sold off all his earthly belongings in order to build a Bitcoin mining rig only to be cooked to death, surrounded by overheated GPUs.
You are welcome on my lawn.
And they made a minor update to it in June 2017, too. Sure, going from 1.6GHz to 1.8GHz was not much of an update, but still.
#DeleteFacebook
MBAs who are ignorant of what customers need and want generate short term profits at the expense of long term success. They don't know how to measure or put a price on customer happiness, and often trade customer happiness for some increase in profit. They aren't aware that what customers are really buying is happiness.
Well, we have arrived at the point where you cannot recover the cost for a degree a while ago, where it's actually going to net you more money in the end when you learn a trade and starting to work basically when you get out of school rather than continuing to a university and start at 25-28 with a mountain of debt on your back.
Eventually people will most likely say "fuck that" and turn their back to universities, realizing that they're better off in the end starting at a lower level entry position. In the end, your degree doesn't really mean much, you don't start as high as someone with one but where you end up, and at what age, depends more on how good you really are.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
student loans are going to pop with lots' of hopeless deadbeats.
I know we're not supposed to question people's sexual orientation but... damn, universities?
#DeleteFacebook
Don't assume 18 year olds make rational decisions.
There are many popular degrees that have never had a positive ROI.
Many kids aren't planning at all, they are just there for the party.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
We have to charge an arm a leg and a testicle for a degree!
Why?
Because the market will bear it!
The market's not bearing it. Revenues are falling off!
Okay, scrap the degree program and come up with easier degrees.
But those degrees don't actually deliver any value.
Shut up! GIMME TOUCHY-FEELY!
People are pissed.
Why?
The touchy-feely degrees aren't in demand because they have no actual utility in the real world.
Tough shit! We got our money!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
The lobotomy will hurt, I wouldn't do it.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"I wouldn't recommend an MBA. I'd say no MBA needed. An MBA is a bad idea. [...] It teaches people all sorts of wrong things. [...] They don't teach people to think in MBA schools. And the top MBA schools are the worst. Because they actually teach people that you must be special, and it causes people to close down their feedback loop and not rigorously examine when they are wrong. [...] I hire people in spite of an MBA, not because of one. If you look at the senior managers of my companies, you'll see very few MBAs there."
It's not dead until they (MBAs) are all half hung, drawn, quartered, the parts burned and the ashes buried under crossroads.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I got my MBA a few years ago from the local Really Expensive Private University, when 40 was just around the corner and I wanted to add another leg to my stool before I became "old" by tech-world standards. I very much value the body of knowledge that I learned, but there are several serious problems with the people chasing and offering it today.
A MBA is like a can of car wax. If you put it on a Corvette, you'll make something great. If you put it on a turd, all you'll have is a shiny turd. I have a STEM degree + 15 years in HPC, and I think the MBA definitely helped me make better, wiser decisions.
By contrast, there were several "MBA's" (in the Dilbertesque sense) in the MBA program right out of central casting. They couldn't write a line of code, couldn't turn a wrench, couldn't do anything useful, but they had executive hair, wore fancy suits, and constantly "networked" and looked for "synergy". They wanted a MBA strictly as a gateway to wealth and power.
They're aided and abetted by universities who are fighting to break into the game. Why shouldn't they? It's relatively low cost (doesn't require expensive labs or facilities like STEM does), people will throw mortgage-size checks at you for the privilege of attending, and you might luck up and get a rich alumni who donates back someday. And they kept raising tuition every year, faster than inflation, faster than salaries grew.
My cousin graduated with a law degree right when the law market crashed, and I recognized similar signs of doom creeping into the MBA field. Just like the bloom in law schools, there was a bloom in MBA schools, from tiny never-heard-of-them-before private universities and on-line schools, taking cash from every marginal MBA student-wanna-be out there.
I don't regret getting my MBA, even though I haven't seen much more than cost-of-living increases since graduation. I learned a tremendous amount and enjoyed it a lot (there can be economic geeks just as much as science geeks or IT geeks). And I made a substantial chunk of change on the stock market using what I knew. But with a MBA from a good school costing $100k nowadays, you're much better off just taking $300 to the local used book store and reading them.
The MBA wasn't a "gateway to wealth" because of the degree itself, but because of the caliber of student trying to attain it. I'm sure the same type of people who chase an IT degree for wealth in the 90's and chased a JD/MBA for wealth in the 00's will find another degree to chase and run into the ground soon enough. My bet is on "data science". I already see a few junior varsity universities in our area offering a degree to any comer who can code in BASIC, and I'm sure DeVry's and University of Phoenix will be offering a degree soon enough.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer degree.
Check your premises.
We've been having a very similar situation here in Germany for quite some time with the fields of business administration - where a higher education is basically free (the tuitions people have to pay are usually negligible like
It's been the go-to for school graduates who didn't know what to do with their lives but wanted to have a higher degree in something that can possibly make a lot of money. However Universities adapted for the influx not by implementing failure rates that force 70% of the students out of class, so that only the best remain, but by increasing the number of possible seats. Which resulted in thousands of BA bachelor degrees and masters (to some extend). All that in an economy that cries for qualified (blue collar) workers and engineers and already had plenty of managers. Well wasted tax money if you ask me, which makes me think that subsidizing all education is not a good idea in the end.
Seriously, most businesses don't need to be "administered". Administrating is for the conglomerates, and although I'm sure conglomerates need new canon fodder to back-fill their management ranks, it certainly doesn't have the number of chairs to support the multitude of MBA conferring organizations that are out there today. Even among huge conglomerates long McDonalds and Costco, they often draw their executives from line workers not freshly minted MBAs...
For the non-conglomerate business, the reason they often fail is for lack of vision, not lack of administration...
As for the "accounting" MBAs, well, do we need to engineer more Joint Energy Development Investment Limited Partnerships, or ChewCos?
As for the "finance" MBAs, well, do conglomerates need more leveraged buyouts, or engineer more Credit Default Swaps?
As for these second tier MBA schools that can't attract students? Nothing of value was lost...
This is about the best news I could read all day long. MBAs contribute nothing to the economy other than maximizing profits at the expense of humanity. May the MBA die an ignoble death!
Seriously, these ppl are being taught to take short routes as opposed to how to grow companies. As such, we end up with junk like GE, HP, IBM, Google, etc. These companies are dying and it is due to hiring of horribly trained MBAs that only look at how THEY can get big bonuses, and then leave the company.
This is why Musk has less than 12 total in all of his companies.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I know MBAs are a favorite punching bag on Slashdot, but my experience in getting one was very positive.
*However*, it's not something that is going to directly result in a pay raise or a new job opportunity, like a bachelor's degree might. Most people don't see the value in an MBA because you can't immediately and directly monetize it, but that doesn't mean it has no value.
I feel like I learned more about business during my MBA than I did in all my undergraduate years, and I use more of that knowledge every day than anything I learned by studying irrelevant classes the university foisted on my 19 year old brain, which has since forgotten them.
Like I said, I know /. hates MBAs, but not everything valuable can be easily and immediately quantified.
Also never underestimate parents pushing their kids to get a degree. A majority of families consider it a failing that their kid doesn't go to college and get a degree.
The story copy sounds like a shallow desperate tech industry puff piece. "Go to school for tech! If you go for anything, everything but tech is a waste of time and money!"
The best advice I've ever heard is to trust your local want ads the most.
And for many many years now, most of the ads have been for MBAs and nursing positions.
Some places do have a big tech industry, but most don't, and offshoring hasn't helped.
" but not everything valuable can be easily and immediately quantified."
The university has no problem attaching a dollar amount to it, though.
MBAs aren't universally air thieves. Of the fifty or so I've worked with, one wasn't an idiot.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
I find my MBA to be a tremendous value, as a supplement to my tech career. If it is all you have, typically not worth much.
This posting is provided 'AS IS' without warranty of any kind, implied or otherwise.
It's gotten worse too. Used to be they'ed go for a semester or year and get booted for failing. Now they just switch majors until they get down to one that will let them pass at their level of effort.
If a kid wants to party, (s)he should get it out of their system while working a shit job and paying rent.
The real nightmare is 'free college' but continued complete lack of academic standards. No nation in the world has that combination.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Well now... ...And aside from his current round of personnel management woes, there are some far-off fundamental problems with producing HUGE numbers of electric cars/batteries that nobody on this planet can wave a magic wand and fix....
Musk has had a number of pretty big setbacks in his businesses, and he hasn't been doing it all that long. Mostly what he has done is attracted huge amounts of subsidies and investments. He is delivering something which is more than a lot of kickstarter bubbles do, but the most successful venture (the cars) is still a long way from profitability and fame doesn't keep the lights on.
It is very risky to have a (new) executive who wants to "throw all the old ways out the window".
You get people exactly like Trump, who decided to drain the swamp--only to arrive at the new job horribly unprepared, with an inner circle of helpers who themselves had no idea what they were doing. Advisors from the swamp would have been more critical--but overall, a lot more helpful.
I agree with you, actually.
However, I believe it does depend on *why* you get the MBA.
If, for instance, you get an MBA to boost an already progressing career, wherein you're moving from the masses to management, then it makes perfect sense to get one - doubly so if, say, you just became a junior manager and you want to push your career as far as you can take it. It actually helps you navigate the corporate world fairly well (as long as you have a solid intellect and a good eye on culture.)
On the other hand, if you're getting one just because your brain translates it to "$$$$$!!!!!!!one!!", then you'll get approximately nowhere with it - at least not without a lot of hard knocks at first.
All that said, I once worked under someone in a highly technical position (and in a very tech-intensive department), but her only claim to any sort of professional competence was her MBA... and nothing else. She was a nice enough person, but have you ever had to explain/justify any technical decisions to someone like that? It's a royal pain in the ass. Her lack of knowledge, experience, or even competency in the field(s) of the employees she oversaw also made for one very weird culture and work environment... somewhat dysfunctional in quite a few aspects. Little wonder that a once-tight team had pretty much disintegrated within the space of 18 months (I believe I was the last to leave), and that the replacements were not quite up to the tasks before them.
Long story short, because of this, I've come to the conclusion that an MBA is a great addition, but it makes for a really lousy foundation.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
What was your undergrad subject, if you don't mind me asking.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Hey man don't be so gender racist!!! Me? Im self-IDing as an apache attack helicopter. I figure in another 5 or so years I will be able to get the gov to pay for my 20mm chaingun AND 'copter pilot licence that I cant afford myself... 'cause feelings... or think of the children(tm)... or whatever. :P
double between Comp Sci and IB
The prospective foreign students I know (and I know quite a few) aren't coming to US because of the leftist antics at American universities. They come from countries where there have been communist civil wars and many have have family members murdered by the communists. Masked thugs in black running around streets and universities beating teachers and students they disagree with..........well, that's straight out of the Chinese Cultural Revolution.
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
Until the trades fix the problems of being considered "highly skilled unskilled" as well as its unfriendliness towards latecomers, it's still going to be a non-starter for many.
"Forget the engineers." -Carly Fiorina, briber of MIT Technology Review.
The craziness on campuses has been widely publicized. I would be turned off by that too.
* ANTIFA and SJW crazies
* Trigger warnings
* Classroom disruptions
* 53 gender pronouns and counting
* Crazy standards for what constitutes a sex crime
Better to go elsewhere where sanity might prevail
You can add to that:
Many times universities will tell students how great a degree (every degree) is, and actively encourage them to enroll in useless ones. A new student reasonably assumes someone titled "councilor" will try to give good council, but no. The administration and professors and everyone surrounding the students all have their own agenda.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
So, I started out my career with software. I've been getting paid to build things out of bricks made of C++, Erlang, Ruby, PHP and a few other languages since about 2003. Over the years, I've risen to a level where my day is spent managing people and direction for a large enterprise. I recently enrolled in an MBA program. What I've learned so far has been immediately, and immensely valuable.
If you've ever seen two people arguing about the same thing, because they both used words that meant something diffferent to each of them, that has been me increasingly less. Being able to speak the language of business, and more importantly understand said language and be able to translate that to your engineering brethren is damn near priceless.
Further, I've seen several comments speaking to how MBA programs teach shortsightedness and a ruthless focus on bad business concepts like money over people, etc. I might just be in a "good" program, but it couldn't be further from the truth for me. We've interwoven very human topics like bias and ethics into every class I've had so far, even things like accounting.
From my perception, acquiring an MBA is probably better as a mid-career assist than a valuable base. It would be very hard to remember everything taught and apply it meaningfully years later, having the knowledge atrophy in an entry position where you could care less about the strategic direction of the business or the budgets.
My vote it pro-MBA, but you have to know what you'll get from it.
mov ah, 4ch
int 21h
Not of a specific company's brand of course.. but the "MBA" brand. There's countless stories about clueless managers out there that picked up their "MBA" from a 3 month online course. Even if the fraction of such people is small, they're the ones that got reported on the most and now anyone who sees "MBA" automatically assumes "idiot who couldn't make it into a real business school" (even though the degree from real business schools is still MBA..)
Not sure what there is to be done about that. My first suggestion would be for "real" schools to try rebranding but that's not especially easy to do and there's nothing stopping the phonies from just doing the same thing again under the new label.
The only other option would be to try and remove those phony schools.. somehow (I'm not sure they're technically illegal which would mean getting rid of them would likely require new laws to be bough^Wwritten right off the top, and that's not cheap or fast.) And then they would have to play the brand management game after the crud is removed in order to try and get everyone to believe that MBA is a meaningful title once again.
Don't quit your day job, you suck as a psychic.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
well said. As a MBA student with a CS degree under my belt I also have no idea how the MBA would be useful as a foundation. Then again, originally, it was never intended as that. It's a broad overview of how business works - and that's valuable knowledge if you are charged to actually run a business or part of it. It also gives you insight about some of the PHB decisions you had to suffer as a "tech guy" - not all of them are Dilbertesque idiocy; some actually have good business reasons behind them.
However, I agree, there are still plenty of PHBs out there, with MBA and without, and a degree can only do so much - personality, integrity, commitment, empathy, humility, the ability to listen, to put others' needs first aren't things a MBA or any programme teaches you.
You know a good way to learn about business (the kind of things they teach in an MBA)?
Get a job.
Get a job with a smaller company where everyone has to wear all the hats sooner or later - stick around for 3 or 4 years, it's cheaper than school and as a bonus: you learn more. If you get lucky and find a great place, stick with it. If it's not your idea of fun after 3 or 4 years, you at least know the right questions to ask while interviewing your potential future employers.
There's always an exception, some good people get a bum steer early in their career and end up with an MBA.
Mostly, I thought MBAs were for those too clueless to get a real job and hold it long enough to learn some things, so they go to school to learn about the whole business process and after that, hopefully they're not completely clueless when their daddy installs them in upper management.
People who aren't being artificially advanced to the top really should learn enough along the promotion ladder to not need an MBA.
... the last decades of "development" (decay?) in the US. I'm not really surprised. These days I wouldn't touch college with a ten-foot pole if I were living in the US. You're in debt for life, academic job chances and their stability are dwindling and as a heterosexual male you run the risk of being burned at the stake in an instant for being too interested in the ladies.
Here in Germany however it's an entirely different game.
I just enrolled in a BsC programm called Media CompSci. The university is free, the programm is awesome, the campus is exeptionally well put together (they just moved to a brand new campus), services are excellent and on top of that I actually get to *save* money, because semster fees get you a student ID / status that comes with many benefits, including free public transport throughout the state. On the plus side the ladies quota in the CompScis is up and since my faculty has "media" in it's name we can't complain anyway. I get to flirt with girls less than half my age - very nice :-). And if I want I can walk 50 meters to the other faculty buliding and start my own extra MBA programm at no extra cost. Or whatever else I'm interested in.
Bottom line: That young USias (especially males) are steering clear of universities is no big surprise to anyone observing what has been happening lately. I totally get it.
My 2 eurocents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Hey people! Stop looking, I have here someone who said he already found the decent MBA!
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The text says international students hesitate to go to the USA, which reduces the number of international MBA students. I can understand that. In the present condition of the US, I am hesitant to go there. On a conference this summer in Gothenburg (Sweden), a lot of the attendees decided to not submit papers to the conference when it will be in the US and skip for another conference located outside. This is mainly due to the harassment at the border and the potential unfriendliness of locals. Even if the last thing is nonsense, people feel that way based on TV images.
Most MBA programs are taken by professionals part time.
Believe it or not it is a masters degree program. That covers aspects in business that you may not have covered in your job.
It teaches people to not do the stupid things that MBA get blamed for doing while the real culprit of these things are often some over ambitious middle manager without an MBA.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Actually, we send our conservatives and rather right wing people. Unfortunately, even those have now doubts about your country and stay in the EU.
Also never underestimate parents pushing their kids to get a degree. A majority of families consider it a failing that their kid doesn't go to college and get a degree.
Children of irrational parents making irrational decisions, who would have thought?
We'll make great pets
Was a MIT EE first. Likely got a lot dumber with the MBA, but had enough margin to afford it.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'