In a Declining Comics Market, DC Beats Marvel (hollywoodreporter.com)

An anonymous reader quotes the Hollywood Reporter: Looking at the most-ordered comic books in the North American comic market, DC Entertainment had a particularly strong year, with seven of the top 10 issues of the year being published by the home of Superman, Batman and the Justice League... just three years ago, not one DC title made it to the list, with nine titles coming from Marvel alone. (By comparison, Marvel takes just three places this year, with one of those due to its inclusion in a subscription mystery box service)... Perhaps surprisingly, the big winner of 2017 looking at the top 10 list is DC's crossover between its DC Universe and Watchmen properties. The first issue of the Doomsday Clock series charted third â" and could end up higher on the final list for the year, depending on re-order numbers in December â" but all four issues of the prologue storyline "The Button," from summer issues of Batman and The Flash, also made it into the top 10.

it's worth noting that, across the board, order numbers for comics in the North American market fell 10 percent compared with last year. The market is shrinking, unless something turns it around soon... One last thing to note about the year's top 10, and also the comic market as it currently exists in general: It's probably time to stop pretending that mass media projects significantly impact comic book orders. In a year with Justice League, Wonder Woman, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Logan, Thor: Ragnarok and Spider-Man: Homecoming in theaters, there isn't a Justice League, Wonder Woman, Guardians of the Galaxy, Wolverine, Thor or Spider-Man title in the top 10. Indeed, Marvel has just canceled the Guardians of the Galaxy comic book series.
Mavel had the most-ordered comic book of the year -- Marvel Legacy No. 1 -- though the article notes that all of its numbers are inevitably skewed by "ordering incentives put in place by publishers that require that a certain number of copies are ordered by stores in order to achieve a specific discount."

Comments

SJW Marvel

[Kunedog]

Maybe it helps that DC headliners haven't (yet) been replaced with disastrous forced diversity versions?

Re:SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

Female Thor.
Black, female Iron Man.

They've also made established characters gay now, like Iceman.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Kohath]

...it will eventually try to satisfy big money by acting as a propoganda vessel.

"Big money" doesn't control the readers. Propaganda doesn't sell unless you're telling the readers what they want to hear.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

War Machine was his own superhero. Superheroes may temporarily die or ask a friend to wear their costume; or a friend might wear a costume to keep a weakened superhero from danger. But, Tony Stark did not become Tanya Stark.

Changing Captain Marvel, Iron Man, Thor, Spiderman, The Flash, Aquaman, Hulk, etc. is just pandering. Create a new superhero and let the existing superheroes introduce them. That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it, and it's worked out pretty well so far.

Re:SJW Marvel

[elrous0]

Yeah, too bad people don't BUY diversity comic books in the real world.

Re:SJW Marvel

[elrous0]

How about America? A comic that Marvel promoted the hell out of, written by an openly virulent man-hating anti-white racist? This was a comic from Marvel, mind you (not some indie company), which featured a superhero who attacked white people and men in every issue--a comic from Marvel that portrayed white men as the ultimate villains in society.

Hey, remember when comic books used to have a broad market, including both kids and adults? Well, would anyone in their RIGHT FUCKING MIND want their kid reading America?

Re:SJW Marvel

[Z80a]

I don't think it was the diversity itself, but the whining.
This "cult" is basically unable to make actually cool characters because the politics IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER and must be hammered and forced down the throat, at a point there's this female thor comic that does very whiny references to the freaking gamergate.

Meanwhile, everyone, including the intended "minority audience" just move away to japanese mangas and anime, as they deliver the cool stuff.

Re:SJW Marvel

[DontBeAMoran]

And the national anthem protests by NFL players hasn't caused ratings to crater while leaving empty seats at stadiums.

Ah, so that really happened? I thought South Park was just inventing shit again.

I guess they're still relevant then.

Re:SJW Marvel

[DontBeAMoran]

Oh yeah? What about two nazis arguing against one another? What happens then?

Re:SJW Marvel

[dirk]

Out of everyone you listed, I believe on Aquaman has been the same person from the beginning. There were 3 Captain Marvels (Mar-vell, Monica Rambeau, and Carol Danvers), at least 4 Iron Men (Tony, Rhodey, Riri, and Doom), about 5 Thors, 3 Spidermen that I can think of off the top of my head (and probably more), 4 Flashes, and at least 3 Hulks. But please tell me again how changing the character is something that just isn't done.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Maxo-Texas]

That's an interesting point. Rhodes was much more acceptable because he had paid his dues, was a regular character, and made sense to drop in the iron man suit.

I had stopped buying comic books due to exploding prices by the time Riri Williams put on the suit so I don't know if she was a side character for several years first or not.

Re: SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

1:3 in cities?
Which cities? Sodom and Gomorrah?

Re:SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

You want minority or whatever characters? Make new ones. Don't destroy the good ones in the name of changing a superficial and, supposedly meaningless, characteristic.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Ol Olsoc]

Nonsense! When the Fourth Reich arises, those pesky minorities will be put in their place, and the White Man will once again be pre-eminent, you know, sort of like he is now, when he's not sitting there sobbing like the delicate snowflake that he is because someone dared to make a black or gay superhero.

At least in America, the "white man" will become a minority in the not too distant future http://www.washingtonexaminer.... 2044 is the projected date.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

Glad you missed my point. Changing a superhero for the purpose of diversity is pandering. Changing them to tell a story (temporary death, friend wearing suit, etc) is not pandering. I do not actually care if Tony Stark is White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, Male, Female, Non-Binary, Straight, Gay, Disabled, etc. No cares at all. I only begin to care when it is clear someone is trying to pander to one group or another. Make a great story, I'm in. Pander to a specific group in an obvious way, I'm out. Period. This may be why Marvel is hurting.

Re:SJW Marvel

[Crashmarik]

I kind of enjoyed NAZI Captain America. Can't imagine how that would turn people off the character.

Re:SJW Marvel

[JoshuaZ]

She was not a pre-existing character, which is an interesting point, and certainly a more valid point than most of the other responses (apparently there are a lot of people who are engaging in the I-disagree-so-I-will-mod-down line of thinking on this conversation).

Re:SJW Marvel

[Anonymous Coward]

Making Thor female is pretty much sacrilege (literally depending on who you are talking to). It's some kind of dumb pander, just like hispanic spider man who replaces the DEAD Peter Parker, and the asian hulk and the black girl iron man. They also made Donald Trump into comical villain MODOC, instead changing him to "MODAAK".
Marvel is pandering heavily in politics, if you don't agree with them you know you shouldn't be reading them.
If they had stuck to comic book stories instead of being 1000% partisan drek, they'd definitely be doing better.

Re: SJW Marvel

[TheRaven64]

I'd be very surprised at 1:3. The highest estimates I've seen are about 15%. In my personal experience (living in fairly liberal university cities) it's about 10%. It's always a bit difficult to measure, because a lot of people simply don't advertise their sexuality in any way and some are in the closet, but neither 33% nor 4% sound particularly plausible.

Re:SJW Marvel

[DeVilla]

You know, I don't get the impression that's true. Certainly, some folks only want to see things that reinforces their existing beliefs, but some of the most interesting works are those that introduce something different. But they have to do so in a compelling way with characters that behave in believable ways (given the nature of their fictional environment, such as a world where super powers exist).

The focus has to be the story & the characters and how to convey that to the audience. I haven't seen any of the recent comics and I've hear little of them. But I get the impression that the focus isn't the characters or the plot. It's merely the author's 'cause' and a chance to stand at the pulpit. Kind of like how M.A.S.H. would get annoying during the Alan Alda anti-war sermons.

That said, I suspect a well crafted story and interesting characters could sell propaganda.

Re:SJW Marvel

[lucasnate1]

Ok, then let's switch to all the war propoganda comics instead.

Re:SJW Marvel

[dirk]

But why do you assume these changes were made for purely diversity? There was a story behind most of them (Monica Rambeau was trademark more than anything). There is a story reason why Jane Foster is Thor now. There is a storyline reason why Riri is Iron Man (well, Iron Heart). There is a storyline reason Amadeus Cho is the Hulk and why Jen Walters started referring to herself as Hulk instead of SheHulk. Hell, there is more storyline to most of these than things like the Flash going through so many people (and that is ignoring the golden age flash) or why Rhodey put on the armor. You assume if something changes it must be diversity, but the fact is, why not have the change also encompass diversity? There is no reason every Flash has to be a white guy. There's no reason every person to put on Batman outfit has to be a white man. If they are going to make a change for storyline purposes, why can't it be a diversity change as well?

Focus

[gurps_npc]

Marvel focuses on movies and does a good job there, leaving their second string people to work on the comics.

Re:Focus

[JaredOfEuropa]

Yeah that is my nightmare scenario right there: comics market declining and these companies deciding to focus on cranking out more godawful superhero crap for the silver screen.

Re:Focus

[MightyYar]

It's not all total crap. Wonder Woman was one of the more entertaining movies that I watched in the past year. But yeah, the rest were forgettable.

Re:Focus

[lucasnate1]

Why is it a nightmare scenario? It would allow new actors to tke center stage. Hell, I would be very happy if marvel and dc just disappeared of the face of the earth.

Re:Focus

[TheRaven64]

Seriously? It had some good explosions, but I tried finding a single point in the movie where the characters actions actually made sense given their backgrounds and motivations, and couldn't find a single one. Maybe if you've read the comics, there's enough extra backstory for it to make sense, but it was basically run, jump, do nonsensical thing, explosion, all the way through.

Re:Focus

[MightyYar]

Except for the big fight scene at the end, the action was not really as you describe. Far more bullet dodging and hand-to-hand combat until the very end. But even so, that sort of action is expected at a bare minimum in a Superhero movie. I thought the story seemed OK - I mean, obviously you have to accept the alternate history and the supernatural stuff. The magic truth-telling lasso is certainly an interesting way to dodge the whole trust issue that would have naturally cropped up. You can pick stuff apart to death, but I found the character development interesting enough.

Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[JoshuaZ]

Marvel has done really well with their movies, but they've screwed themselves over in multiple ways with their comics. The biggest is that continuing their disagreement with Fox, where Fox still has the rights to X-Men movie franchises, and Marvel isn't happy about that, they kept Wolverine dead for 3 years, which in comic time is almost an eternity http://www.iswolverinestilldead.com/. This seems to have been essentially because he was one of the most popular of the X-Men characters. So they were willing to shoot themselves in the foot in order to be able to say "screw you" to Fox even as it only hurt Marvel's bottom line. The last few years, Marvel has had a lot of little petty things like this that haven't helped the brand.

Re:Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[steveha]

What you say could be true, but I think the SJW campaign is probably the biggest reason. It's not just Wolverine.

X-23 is wearing Wolverine's old costume and going by the name "Wolverine" now. Tony Stark is gone, and a teenaged black girl is Iron Man now. (Her name is "IronHeart" but the comic book is still named Iron Man.). Thor is gone and a woman picked up the hammer (she was worthy). Spider-Man isn't gone but there is a second, Hispanic Spider-Man, plus comics where Gen Stacy became Spider-Gwen. They killed Captain America and had Falcon (a black guy) become the new Captain America. There's even a new Hulk, an Asian guy.

In short, SJW Marvel seems to have had a policy of getting rid of the white male versions of their most popular characters, so they could swap in more diverse versions.

There are two huge problems. One is little kids seeing the movies and wanting to buy comics featuring the same characters; none are for sale. They have been walling off their own comics, preventing new customers from becoming fans! The other is that they forgot that their core mission is to tell good stories and entertain their customers... none of this diversity stuff was in service to the story, in fact the stories have been very poor.

There is a guy on YouTube whose channel name is "Diversity and Comics" and he has covered all this. He says that SJW Marvel has been hiring people based on who they are, not their experience making comics. The character of America Chavez is a lesbian female, and Marvel hired a lesbian female to write the comics. But she had no comics experience, and she has done a terrible job of writing comics that fans want to read.

It seems clear that the corporate overlords are out of patience with SJW Marvel. The editor-in-chief was recently replaced, and all signs are that the new guy is going to axe the SJW campaign and try to give the fans what they want. The SJW usual suspects are melting down over this. A half-dozen comics with extremely poor sales were cancelled and the blog coverage was all about the impact this will have on diversity.

If the new editor-in-chief can turn things around, 2018 could be a much better year for Marvel. Most of their problems were self-inflicted.

Re:Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[willy_me]

Marvel is focused on cutting out the middle man - those that sell comics. They want to make digital sales direct to a customer tablet. This way they can offer attractive prices and leverage one comic to advertise another. For this they have attractive mobile applications that works quite well. While developing this comic distribution system it is inevitable that the physical comic sales will decline. It is not a sign that the comics are bad but a sign that they are moving to a different distribution channel. Just wait, next they will go after the theatres.

Oh, and as far as Wolverine goes, the character was overused as is and it was time for a break. He'll be back, badass as ever...

Re:Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[lucasnate1]

80% women (and climbing - as they force out more men).

This reminds me of feminists complaining about silicon valley.

Re:Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[thoughtlover]

The biggest is that continuing their disagreement with Fox, where Fox still has the rights to X-Men movie franchises

Don't even get me started about the Fantastic Four and the Sony contract. At least X-men fans got a ton of great movies! The Fantastic Four is the runt-that-can't of comic book movies...every incarnation, an utter failure... and every one should have been thrown in the nearest tar pit.

Re:Marvel movies done well, screwed own comics

[Rande]

Tried it. Western comics suck on a tablet with all the required scrolling.
Manga is just about tolerable as most pages are readable without scrolling or zooming.

Re:Why is a tech site...

[JoshuaZ]

Classically, Slashdot has "News for nerds, stuff that matters"- this seems to be in the first category. One could argue that based on the classic word cloud associations this is closer to "geek" than "nerd" https://slackprop.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/on-geek-versus-nerd/, but the overlap between those two has always been pretty high.

Re:Why is a tech site...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.

well ...

[c6gunner]

Indeed, Marvel has just canceled the Guardians of the Galaxy comic book series.

Well, to be fair, the new movie kinda sucked balls. It's as if the director said "let's refilm the first movie, but simplify the plot, add more explosions, and make all the acting reminiscent of a middle school play".

I wouldn't have expected it to drum up comic book sales.

Re:well ...

[MightyYar]

I was amazed at how surreal that movie was. The basic plot outline was OK. The sound and visual effects excellent. The acting wasn't bad. But the whole thing felt like no one was taking anything terribly seriously, all the way out to the credits. It was like they were a comedy troop or something, or like the actors themselves didn't even enter the suspension of disbelief. All that was missing were overt breakages of the 4th wall. Very strange way to spend hundreds of millions of dollars.

Need more Independents

[mykepredko]

The corporatization of comics along with the yearly "big event" (bigger than the year before) in which heros, die, are reborn, lose powers (and maybe limbs), gain powers (and maybe limbs), are transported to alternative realms and the Earth, humanity or the universe is fundamentally changed in some way. These big events seem to be set up simply for having a movie that people can look forwards to down the line. Over the past 15 years or so, there's been a real loss of character driven stories and arcs which are what made comics great in the first place. I know Disney/Warner won't give up Marvel/DC as they drive movie and TV profits which means that they drive the comics to create properties/stories for these mediums.

So, where are the great independents that can drive stories away from the corporate oligarchs? There really needs to be some new life/blood brought in.

Re:Need more Independents

[Anonymous Coward]

Judge Dredd is probably the most famous, long-running comic book hero who has an independent publisher.

Not appalling to me

[sanf780]

As stated on the first link, IDW is doing a better job at getting artist driven comics out. The appalling thing of artist driven comics is that they can start a new story from scratch, sometimes being fresh. DC and Marvel comics are hard to get involved in them when they need to cater for both long standing fans and drive new fans into it. It is a difficult mix. As a comparison, just imagine trying to get into "Lost" at the fourth season, and not knowing there are going to be even six seasons. There are just too many things going on at that stage that require you to invest time (and money) for digging up. The initial investment is hardly appalling.

I am buying just two series these days : Berserk (follower since 2001) and Saga. I find manga usually easier to follow. I also like how Saga is delivered in thick hardcover versions months or years after the issues are printed.

Just a data point.

[MMC Monster]

Of course this is just a data point, but it goes with the general trend.

Kids are getting exposed to comic characters but not that interested in the comics themselves.

My kids were exposed to comic books at a young age. They're 11 and 14 now and love the trade paperbacks (but are not at all interested in getting individual issues).

Their friends, for the most part, just like the movies and TV shows and aren't at all interested in the back stories from the comics.

My personal take on DC beating Marvel this year: DC's previous reboot failed so miserably that there was a pent up demand for something readable in the DC universe. DC Rebirth fits the bill so more DC purchases this year.

People got smart

[magusxxx]

Why buy the individual issues when they're just going to come out with a trade paperback?

Something is amiss between movies/comic sales

[SuperKendall]

I remember back when I was a kid, that I got into comics because of Star Wars, and bought a lot of Star Wars comics.

Even more recently after watching Firefly, first the TV series then the movie, I was really happy to find the related comics.

That's why to me it's such a surprise the very popular movies are not driving comic book sales, at all, to the point where (as mentioned and a surprise to me) they are cancelling Guardians of the Galaxy comics!

Now i have to admit, it's not like I sought out Marvel comics even after watching a lot of their properties on file and TV. But it seems like there could have been some draw from the movies back to comics, if they had tied them in better, maybe short series setting up things in the movie, or based around the aftermath of events in the movie. Maybe they did do that and I never knew...

On a side note, can you not totally see those all gold people in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 being a perfect fit with a full-page comic Hostess Twinkie advertisement? Just seems like a natural fit somehow.

Re:They all pale compared to Uncle Scrooge

[shoor]

Carl Barks (aka "The Good Artist") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Barks created Uncle Scrooge and both drew and wrote the Uncle Scrooge and Donald Duck comics back in the 50s and they were the BEST comix around. Whenever I take a glance at the modern 'action hero' comics, I find the stories pretentious, repetitive and rather stupid and uninformed, and the characters one dimensional, compared to the old Uncle Scrooge and Donald Duck stories. Uncle Scrooge with his money, Donald Duck with his sheer toughness, and Huey, Dewey, and Louie with their Junior Woodchucks' handbook could take on anybody. Oh, and then there was Gyro Gearloose...

Thank god

[ArchieBunker]

So tired of a new comic book movie every fucking month.

Re:Thank god

[MightyMartian]

So long as they keep making money, the studios will keep making them. If enough people feel as you do, the studios will move on to something else.

I feel the same way about vampire/supernatural hunter shows on TV. The number of these shows is incredible in this post-Buffy age, but the quality, at least of the ones I've seen, is pretty appalling. And yet the genre has a huge number of viewers, so as long as people are willing to tune in in the numbers they do, these shows will continue to propagate.

Stories should maximize profits

[Okian Warrior]

The stories should reflect society as it is today. White men controlling everything is so 1950's.

The stories should maximize profit.

Tangentially, if the stories are riveting and artistically interesting or win awards for things (such as artwork or plot or character development), that will cause greater sales and thus greater profits.

Female Thor and black female Iron Man - those were seemingly *not* chosen to maximize profit.

...and now people are noting that profits due to those choices are down.

This comes as a surprise?

No way

[Kohath]

-Who doesn't enjoy preachy fiction stories?
-Why wouldn't a story written to fill diversity quotas be as compelling as a story written to entertain?
-Don't comic book readers want to worship the latest designated victim class members?
-Why doesn't the regular comic book audience appreciate the new characters adaptations that are meant to appeal to a new, completely different audience who have never been much into comic books?

It sure is a mystery what's going on.

Re:No way

[Kohath]

-Who doesn't enjoy preachy fiction stories?

Did you ever watch the old G.I.I Joe cartoon (amongst others)?? ;-)

Lots of boys want to grow up to be a tough good-guy soldier dude. Not as many want to grow up to be a woman, or a diversity priest, or a social justice warrior.

Re:No way

[lucasnate1]

I think captain planet was pretty popular with kids too.

Re:No way

[TheRaven64]

To be fair though, no one wanted to be Ma-Ti with the power of Heart when they grew up.

Re:No way

[DeVilla]

I think captain planet was pretty popular with kids too.

Really? That's an honest question. In the States or elsewhere in the world? I remember that show as being everyone's punch line. I can't remember anyone who didn't roll their eyes at that one.

The only reason I suspect you might be serious is you seem to remember a character's name and can relate it to a power. I really know no one who ever spoke of that show as anything but a blatant "tree hugger" sermon. Even among friend we were environmentally conscious/active.

Re:No way

[lucasnate1]

In Israel it was just this cool show about kids with superpowers fighting polluters, which were classic villains at the time. Israeli politics is quite diferent from US politics, so as long as these guys are not saying we should accept arabs or talk about Israel or jewism or against conscription, all of us can just quietly can consider them as unpolitical as the thunder cats or any other superhero group.

Re: They all pale in comparison to SJW

[Anonymous Coward]

What drugs are you doing today Sparky? Alex Jones calles he wants his pipe back

Comics core audience is teenage boys

[sandbagger]

Pandering to a non existent market by destroying your core characters by replacing them with well intentioned morally improving replacements is not the solution.

Watch Diversity & Comics youtube channel

[Anonymous Coward]

Marvel was hijacked by a group of SJW types that nearly destroyed Marvel a few years ago. Marvel already had a lot of diversity before this but the SJW writers decided that they wanted to purge all of the white male heterosexuals from their customer base. I'm not exaggerating or being dishonest about that statement. They literally were openly attacking 95% of their customers and started catering exclusively to trans, gays and oppressed "minorities." Naturally, calling a bunch of left leaning nerds a bunch of "alt-right nazis" is a great way to ruin your sales. Nerds went to DC and now Disney just noticed this mess. So now Disney is purging the SJW out of Marvel.

Go read the DC Snagglepuss and see why

[Khyber]

You heard me, go read fucking Snagglepuss. This is why DC is kicking Marvel in the dick on sales.

Re: They all pale compared to Uncle Scrooge

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, the duck comics were some pretty original stuff (and inspired the Indiana Jones films.)

But one of the benefits of mundane reboots in modern comics is they recontextualize the plot in a modern social context.

Like the Ducktales reboot is unnecessary, but without it, people will forget about the comics entirely. What has happened in the last 10 years is the introduction of social media where the previous decade introduced the Internet and prior to that computers.

So it's not comics fault that technology decided to leapfrog itself, but since 9/11 pretty much the fun and adventure has been sucked out both marvel and DC's comics, leaving only dues-ex-militarization stories that are not inspiring and more about creating screenplays for shallow films.

I get the value of diversity but...

[Maxo-Texas]

Young females don't apparently buy comic books in large numbers.

And apparently minorities don't buy comic books in large numbers.

It is reasonable to say, "Well all the stars are white male so why would women and minorities buy the comics?" but shifting the focus drove away existing customers and hasn't resulted in enough extra sales to women and minorities.

That being said- the reasons I stopped buying comic books had to do with price and dystopic topics. When I was a kid they were a cheap product that cost the same as a Hershey almond bar or a bottle of coke at the convenience store.

Today, they are double to triple the price. Really, two comic books which I could read in 20 minutes cost as much as a book which will take hours to read. Comic books production values are too high for the child audience so children never pick up the habit.

Second- I was an iron man fan-- until the 5th or 7th time he fell off the wagon. I don't read comic book stories to feel unending misery for literally *years*. I want to be happy, inspired, surprised for my money.

On a minor note, I do not like it when they rebrand an existing I.P. When they take Thor and make it someone else, I have no interest in the story. Make a new hero- don't step on my childhood I.P.

I have the same issue with The Last Jedi. Make a *new* movie with new characters if you want to make a dystopic piece of crap in a "no win" universe. Don't ruin my childhood I.P. or I will stop giving you my money.

(and on that note: TLJ box office is down by over 50% per day compared to TFA- no one wants to see it twice- and fewer want to see it even once because its such a nasty, toxic piece of work. For bonus points- merchansiding orders are down 47% too. That's going to get Disney's attention- I hope they fired Kennedy and put someone who l actually likes the films and characters like the executive producer over the MCU).

In a declining superhero comics ...

[Qbertino]

... market USians still think "superhero comics" == "comics".

Meanwhile European, Franco-Belgian and Japanese comics still make up 95% of the total of all comics and are still doing perfectly fine.

There, FTFY.

In other news:

"Are marvel and DC fans finally discovering how shitty, bland, boring, overpriced and repetitive their favorite comics are?"

"DC comic readers head explodes from overload after catching glimpse of Franco-Belgian hardcover by Vance & van Hamme"

"Marvel enthusiast dies of heart attack and endorphine overdose after repeatedly masturbating to French Milo Manara album."

"US Superhero fan sells all belongings, moves to southern Europe after enchanting read of Coseys "A trip to Italy" comic"

"Euro comic shipment arrives at US borders. Marvel & DC stock plummets."

What've people been telling Marvel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, those fucking lazy pervs, man-haters and potential suicide bombers in the Social Justice/Gender Pronoun/Feminism/ReligionOfPeace movements are really good at bringing social pressure and demanding change. They're good at proposing shitty ideas for deranging your current product lineups. And they'll beat on you long enough that, eventually, it might ALMOST sounds like a not-totally-bad idea!

And hey! You might break open a new market!

You know what they're all NOT good at?

BUYING COMIC BOOKS!

Sure, once you cave, they MIGHT, maybe, buy the first issue, maybe two. And then, mission accomplished (to make you kowtow to their ideology), they vanish.
Unless they've wormed their way into authority positions in your organization, then you're TOTALLY fucked and your business is doomed to crash and burn because of their myopic "vision".

Marvel has been told this, repeatedly.
Hell, they even ADMITTED IT.
Yet they're caught in the claws of The Monster now. And it's going to ride the corpse all the way down.
Decades and decades of labor and creativity. Flushed down the drain while they hold SHIT pressed to their bossoms.

It's sad. But not sad enough to actually make me give them my hard earned money.

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Ol Olsoc]

as such things go. And you'll find plenty of SJW stuff in DC. I suspect it's more to do with the movie universe making it's way into the comics and turning off the more hardcore, which are generally the only ones that buy more than an issue or two or maybe a graphic novel when a new movie comes out.

There was a movie meme trend in recent years of the cute, tiny woman who gains super powers somehow, and goes off on a spree of killing men.

By the way, I know this is an intensely unpopular opinion but am I the only one that finds it odd that social justice is a bad word?

Actual social justice should ab a lofty goal. But the warriors are not necessarily about justice. Often it is revenge, or just another form of hate.

Yeah, yeah, the crazy feminist who runs your local community college's woman's studies program is pretty annoying, amiright? But then you've got Harvey Weinstein.

Ah, just the right place to start. Instead of properly attacking the problem of creepy fucks like Weinstein, the crazy feminists you speak of go the #metoo route. Which is making more problems than it fixes. A world where due process is thrown out with the pursuit of justice isn't going to be quite like most women want.

What young women shold be taught to do is turn the guy in immediately after he harasses you. And a much better defined version of what harassment consists of would be a big help. And she needs to understand that by not turning the guy in, she is enabling him to harass more women. The same can go fro men harassed by women. Yes it happens.

Instead, we have now entered a brave new world where men, as the target, are taking measures to protect themselves from claims of harassment. Measures as having a chaperone present to avoid any one on one meetings with women. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/1... https://www.theatlantic.com/po... And some are trying to make this illegal! I kinda doubt that will work. Besides, who could object to having a chaperone for both parties protection?

Have you seen NBC's new gender interaction rules? No shared taxis. You will be fired if you do not report anything that you might consider sexual harassment, You will be fired if you do not report a suspected romance between employees. Any interaction between opposite sexes must be reported to Human Resources. And taking a vegan to a steak house is expressly forbidden. Aapparently some vegan was pissed because of a party at - you guessed it - a Steak House. There are very specific rules if you were to hug a person. Quick, and step away to avoid bodily contact. Seriously - I wonder if they have to have a reservation to hug, and a person with a stopwatch to time it? This is the new workplace, because in a world where an accusation from 20 years ago is sufficient evidence to destroy your career, it means that there is no due process, which means none is needed when she sues the company. So in that light, the rules make perfect sense. Google NBC's sexual harassment rules. And the problem is most women and men simply hate this - who wouldn't? But if you listen to the "Crazy feminist" who rather obviouly is a misandryst you'll end up with these sorts of rules as we abandon due process and the rule of law in order to protect women from all men. Most men and women can get along with each other. But in this brave new world, one cannnot be too careful lest they lose everything. I had this happen to me when I simply predicted what was goint to happen with the #metoo witch hunt.

There's too many examples of injustice to list. It feels like we're letting the chick

Because in 10-20 years white males

[rsilvergun]

will be a minority. If they haven't built up a fan base by then they're toast. These are large companies, they need to think long term.

HULK BROKE!

[TiggertheMad]

Part of the problem might be that there are about a million titles these days, and product fatigue is probably an issue. How many books do I have to read to keep up with whatever wolverine and spider-man are doing each month? Back in the 80's it would have been about 3. In addition, there a huge number of independent titles and publishers getting in on the game, so there is more competition for readers than ever.

On top of that, re-writing all the classic heroes to be more ethnically and gender diverse is kinda lame. Don't make the Hulk Asian and Ms. Marvel Moslem, just keep them they way they were, and create new characters and give them their own books. If they are well written, they will sell. If they don't sell, at least you haven't fucked up your classic characters.

Modern comics aren't cheap either. Back in the golden age of comics they were printed cheaply on flimsy newsprint and cranked out in en mass so they were pretty affordable. Over the years we got to the point that they are printed on super high quality paper and bound in book format, but when publishing shifted to digital format, I am not sure that there was any price drop to reflect the efficiency in moving to non-physical distribution.

Re:HULK BROKE!

[Jesus_666]

You can replace a character with a different version and have it work. DC did so repeatedly with Green Lantern and despite the fact that they ended up with multiple Green Lanterns at the same time it seems to work well. The various iterations of Blue Beetle are another example (although BB is a lower-tier character than GL, of course). You do need to be very careful about doing this with A-listers but it can work if done right and in good measure.

The main problem is that Marvel hasn't been careful at all; it seems that they replaced their entire A-list roster in a short period of time. (Spider-Man just got more alternate versions of various characters, as is tradition.)

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Mashiki]

Yeah, yeah, the crazy feminist who runs your local community college's woman's studies program is pretty annoying, amiright? But then you've got Harvey Weinstein.

Ah, just the right place to start. Instead of properly attacking the problem of creepy fucks like Weinstein, the crazy feminists you speak of go the #metoo route. Which is making more problems than it fixes. A world where due process is thrown out with the pursuit of justice isn't going to be quite like most women want.

To be perfectly honest, it seems more like those "male feminist allies" are the problem, and since they can't compete any other way they're using the ally path as a means of reproduction. It's not dissimilar to the anti-gamergaters, who turn out to be committing sexual assault, rape, and calling in bomb threats. Projection all the fucking way down. In a year or two, it won't surprise me if this becomes similar to the "anti-gay firebrand" who ends up being caught engaging in the exact stuff that they were railing against.

And let me say, watch the video. Watch it. Sure it's 30 minutes long, but every single one of the people promoted themselves as "male feminist allies" every single one, and went out of their way to attack anyone else who dared to question the feminist talking points or narrative. Just like those anti-gay firebrands.

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Ol Olsoc]

To be perfectly honest, it seems more like those "male feminist allies" are the problem, and since they can't compete any other way they're using the ally path as a means of reproduction.

Now there is a coincidence. I just watched Sargon's video last night. Its a tough slog to get through, but I think he made it that way as an object lesson. Name after name after name - crime after crime after crime. There sure seems to be a correlation between abusing women and the white knights that presumably are male feminists.

Projection all the fucking way down. In a year or two, it won't surprise me if this becomes similar to the "anti-gay firebrand" who ends up being caught engaging in the exact stuff that they were railing against.

Projection isn't that hard to find. Any zealot is of interest. Then if you get into a discussion with them, you're treated to an accusation that somehow some way, you support rape and abuse of women. I've seen that a lot in here. Somehow noting that men will take measures to protect themselves in the workplace becomes misogyny, and supporting men harassing and raping women.

Meantime, I would caution against assigning one thing as the problem. The male feminists and their oftentimes using that status as a way to gain the trust of women, and then abuse them is one problem, but the third wave feminists are also a huge part of the problem. They have been involved in teaching women that all men are the problem, and that women cannot protect themselves, so society and the elimination of due process and the statute of limitations must protect the defenseless women from all men.

And here we are.

Men who are of no danger to women are pulling away from women they work with. A simple risk/reward asessment tells him that even with the utmost of care, it is possible to say something that might be misinterpreted, or to accidentally touch a woman, or to take a normal act of consolation or friendship be determined to be a sexual act. So yeah, he's going to get off the elevator if she gets on it, so yeah, he's not going to meet with her alone. So yeah, anything that isn't directly involved with work is off limits, and yeah, if she's upset about something, he's just going to ignore her.

And while some folks celebrate this great victory, to cop a phrase from Mrs Clinton, the real victims of the new workplace are nomal women.

I would think it would be very upsetting to have a co-worker leave the room or elevator when you walked in to it, knowing that it was you who caused him to leave. It can't be too comfortble to have as little communications as possible with men who are weighing the impact and vetting everything they say for potential of offending you. Or demanding chaperones as witnesses in order to protect their career.

NBC's draconian workplace anti-harassment rules are the way of the future. But even if they didn't adopt that insanity, men would still be treading very carefully.

But again, while thos rules being genderless, and therefore equal, once again, there's a hidden victim. Women often use the workplace as a convenient way to vet suitable men. It makes a certain amount of sense, as you can spend time around men, and can judge whether they are assholes or not. You know they are going to be of a particular education level, how they act, and can make sound judgements. That is gone in the workplace of the 21st century.

And let me say, watch the video. Watch it. Sure it's 30 minutes long, but every single one of the people promoted themselves as "male feminist allies" every single one, and went out of their way to attack anyone else who dared to question the feminist talking points or narrative. Just like those anti-gay firebrands.

It really isn't too surprising - I know I've been attacked for some pretty tame disagreements. Usually just my typical shtick of being a Cassandra, where a

Re:Marvel got turned out

[yuriklastalov]

Except DC's #metoo cinematic universe is garbage, the movies have largely been trash and the likelihood that the rest of the big DC movies are going to be dumpster fires, as well.

Or were you trying to insinuate that Suicide Squad was going to save the comic book movie?

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Ol Olsoc]

And taking a vegan to a steak house is expressly forbidden. Aapparently some vegan was pissed because of a party at - you guessed it - a Steak House.

I'd actually be pretty pissed if it was a work thing that's supposed to be fun for everyone and it isn't because some limp-dicked cuck thinks it's somehow virile to boast about loving to murder pigs and cows and drink their blood.... the world needs to grow the fuck up.

Because it's all about you, You YOU!

While you bask in self orbiting snowflakeness, There is always a way to avoid much butthurt. If the venue is not appropriate for your tender sensibilities - don't go. I've simply avoided going to places I didn't like for some reason or another. And I'm sure as hell not going to demand that no one els go there.

But it isn't terribly surprising that a vegan would demand to have veto power over everyone else's choice.

The real problem

[slashmydots]

Here's the TD;DR version of Marvel in the last few years. They let SJWs take over to look progressive and all the customers left.

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Mashiki]

That's a good reply and I agree with a lot of it. But really it's going to be a far deeper shitpile that we go through before any sense of normalcy and reason comes back into this. That is providing society doens't come crashing down around our ears first.

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Ol Olsoc]

The real issue is that most purported feminists being given air time nowadays aren't feminists per-se, but in fact female supremacists.

And like all extremists they represent a small, but hard to avoid fringe, and like white supremacists are more than capable of inciting race war, and islamic extremists inciting religious war, they're more than capable of inciting gender war.

And they have succeeded. It is a strange thing that government and adademia have not figured out that as you progress along an idelogical path the tendency is always to become a little more extreme. If a country becomes more conservative, even more conservative players pop up. The same with liberals.

The confusion arises when ideologies start to pander to iether extremes. Because the extremes on both sides have a lot more in common than either side would admit. And are never sustainable. Todays version of feminists are as you suggest, female supremacists. Unfortunately, they have a lot of power in the media and even politics and the courts. And apparantly in pop culture and those comic books.

And I concur, most men are not concerned about females being equal. But in a world of #metoo, in a world where there is no such thibng as due process. And where people actually throw away the entiure underpinnings of civilization, and substitute the rule of the mob for law and order, because of the gender of the accuser.

Well, these people are more aligned with the collapse of society than anything else.

I look at supporters of #metoo as teh exact equivalent of people who enjoy lynching African Americans. Because thety are doing to exact same thing. The accusation is enough for whatever destruction is meted out. These are all bigots through and through, and the only difference is that they are bigoted about.

Re:Marvel got turned out

[Rande]

No, but the Suicide Squad movie made me pick up the Harley Quinn comics. While series 2 isn't as good as the first one, I'm still buying them.

Re:Spider Gwen is pretty popular

[Anonymous Cow Ward]

I can't think of a single steak house that allows - let alone encourages - you to drink an animal's blood. Now sure, it's kind of a dick move to bring a vegan to a steakhouse if it's supposed to be for everyone (assuming you knew they're a vegan).