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US Supreme Court Will Revisit Ruling On Collecting Internet Sales Tax (theverge.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Bloomberg: The U.S. Supreme Court will consider freeing state and local governments to collect billions of dollars in sales taxes from online retailers, agreeing to revisit a 26-year-old ruling that has made much of the internet a tax-free zone. Heeding calls from traditional retailers and dozens of states, the justices said they'll hear South Dakota's contention that the 1992 ruling is obsolete in the e-commerce era and should be overturned. State and local governments could have collected up to $13 billion more in 2017 if they'd been allowed to require sales tax payments from online merchants and other remote sellers, according to a report from the Government Accountability Office, Congress's non-partisan audit and research agency. Other estimates are even higher. All but five states impose sales taxes.

The high court's 1992 Quill v. North Dakota ruling, which involved a mail-order company, said retailers can be forced to collect taxes only in states where the company has a "physical presence." The court invoked the so-called dormant commerce clause, a judge-created legal doctrine that bars states from interfering with interstate commerce unless authorized by Congress. South Dakota passed its law in 2016 with an eye toward overturning the Quill decision. It requires retailers with more than $100,000 in annual sales in the state to pay a 4.5 percent tax on purchases. Soon after enacting the law, the state filed suit and asked the courts to declare the measure constitutional.

180 comments

  1. huh? by BradleyUffner · · Score: 1

    Didn't this already happen years ago?

    1. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      States have been collecting taxes illegally. It's just another on the long list if illegal things being done.

    2. Re:huh? by saloomy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Not so. The states have a right to collect taxes on things you buy if you buy them in the state. Where you receive them is where you "buy" them. What is up for debate here is whether or not they collect the taxes from the merchant or the purchaser.

      Merchants contend that they have no filing requirements for states they do not have presence in, but the consumers do. Individuals are supposed to report and pay Sales Tax on things they bought and didn't pay sales tax.

      This is where enforcement should happen. Otherwise, e-tailers in Canada or other overseas places will have an edge over US e-tailers who will have to collect the tax. Also, once you pay sales tax, you cant deduct it. If your tax liability hits "0" on your income tax and you have deductions which are not refundable, then you lost out because of where the collection and reporting happens. If you report your purchases and pay the sales taxes yourselves, you may deduct more taxes since the number reported will be higher, and non-refundable deductions will lower your liability.

      Besides, do we really want a system where every e-tailer has to collect, report, and pay taxes to every jurisdiction in every country? The US alone has thousands of jurisdictions for sales tax at the state, county, and even city level. This is one of the effects of globalization. Sales tax should be collected from purchasers, not from retailers.

    3. Re: huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people say and believe they are free because they merely assert that they are. But when put to the test, nothing could be further from reality. When faced with an accusation of failing to follow the codes or statutes of the local municipality or any legislatively or bureaucratically-pushed and passed statutory law, in fact one of the millions of laws you never consented toâ¦you have to be recognized more as a âoefreemanâ / sovereign / or private citizen as your STATUS with that government entity. The entity is always looking at the status in their computer system, designated next to the name they are accosting, before any arrests or prosecutions are made. So, we want to make sure that you know, that your mere assertion of your freedom is not going to cut it and update the public records about who you are and your capacity.

    4. Re:huh? by DarkOx · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not quote right. Some states and localities have sales tax some states have "use tax" they are not the same. In the case of a sales tax, the sale is taxed, in the case of a use tax the receipt is taxed. You cannot be required to pay a sales tax on a purchase made across state lines by anyone but the feds, it would violate interstate commerce. You can be required to pay a use tax to your own state or municipality.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    5. Re:huh? by Strider- · · Score: 2

      Otherwise, e-tailers in Canada or other overseas places will have an edge over US e-tailers who will have to collect the tax. Also, once you pay sales tax, you cant deduct it. If your tax liability hits "0" on your income tax and you have deductions which are not refundable, then you lost out because of where the collection and reporting happens.

      I live in Canada, and if you think that our retailers are ever going to have an advantage over US retailers, you're delusional. The cost of doing business here is simply higher.

      However, when it comes to bringing in stuff in internationally, that's not so hard. When I buy something and have it shipped to Canada, the tax due is assessed at the border, and along with my package, i'm assessed both federal and provincial sales tax. The federal customs authorities collect that tax on behalf of the province, and hand it over. No reason why something similar couldn't be done in the US.

      The real reason why this is problematic in the US is the crazy patchwork when it comes to sales tax. Not only does each of the 50 states have its own sales tax regime, so do smaller regions/counties and even cities. Unless someone provides a single large database and remittance system that covers all of that, it's not practical for a small electronic retailer to know that he needs to pay the county of bumfuck Louisiana 1.5% sales tax on items sent to an address in that county.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    6. Re: huh? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Sales taxes are collected from purchaser but it is the retailers duty if they collect to also pay it to the state. The problem is that the US has thousands of local tax rules which aren't always obvious even to the government.

      Hence both collection and enforcement becomes a headache similar to date/time zone calculations, currency displays and daylight savings.

      Large retailers can afford to have an army of programmers and accountants on staff, but small business having to file taxes in every locality they ever sold something in is going to be a recipe for disaster.

      Given the total "losses" are less than a few billion dollars per year, my guess is that most states will spend more on collecting these taxes than it will benefit. For every piece of paper you send to the government, about $100-1000 is spent between collection, processing, digitation and storage. Here's my $5 in taxes I owe.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    7. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had something of a change of opinion on this issue. Long I've considered the difficulties in determining 1. exactly the place where the tax should apply (the nexus) and 2. what the tax rate should be on the items being sold. Neither one of these are trivial issues. The boundaries of those 7000+ taxing districts are hard to determine with certainty and are subject to constant flux (even if the customer gives you a good mailing address) and the tax rates are also in flux (tax-exempt items and tax holidays, anyone?). Geo-IP location is notoriously inexact.

      My change of heart has to do with the huge switchover that people have made to using online sales. I hate to do business that way; to the greatest extent possible I make my purchases only in stores I visit. These online people ought to be taxed.

      I ask again, though, about why the nexus of a sale should be considered to be at the buyer's residence/place of business/place of delivery. Why not say that the nexus is where the seller is? After all, for those face-to-face transactions I prefer, nexus is at the point of sale (except, curiously, when I buy a car).

    8. Re: huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laws don’t require you to consent to them to be valid, numbuts. That has never been a thing ever. According to you I can freely murder people as long as I’m a “freeman” and don’t consent to murder statutes? lol...

    9. Re:huh? by kqs · · Score: 1

      The real reason why this is problematic in the US is the crazy patchwork when it comes to sales tax. Not only does each of the 50 states have its own sales tax regime, so do smaller regions/counties and even cities. Unless someone provides a single large database and remittance system that covers all of that, it's not practical for a small electronic retailer to know that he needs to pay the county of bumfuck Louisiana 1.5% sales tax on items sent to an address in that county.

      Sure, but that seems like something a large company will do in-house, and a small company will pay their credit-card handler to do. Ideally based on a database that the federal government or each state government would publish monthly.

    10. Re: huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      your STATUS with that government entity

      Perhaps I haven't established a 'status' with a government entity. I walk into a store, select a product and pay cash. Who am I with respect to the local jurisdiction? None of their business. This isn't the Soviet Union. I'm not required to have travel documentation to demonstrate my rights to be here.

      The default assumption is that I am a subject of the state and/or local governing entity unless I can demonstrate otherwise. It is theoretically possible (although a major paperwork nuisance) to demonstrate my 'citizenship' of another state and be exempt from sales/use taxes. But that requires that I present myself as a subject of that other state based upon identity papers issued by them. I shouldn't need any stinkin' papers to live in my own country! Lincoln freed the slaves. He didn't just transfer ownership of all of us to state governments.

    11. Re:huh? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      it's not practical for a small electronic retailer to know that he needs to pay the county of bumfuck Louisiana 1.5% sales tax on items sent to an address in that county.

      Err...close.

      We don't have counties in LA, we have parishes.

      And in Orleans parish, with all the state and local taxes, sales tax here is roughly about 9.75% I think I saw.

      I really do miss when Amazon didn't charge sales tax....I prefer paying my use tax myself!!

      *ahem*.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In those cases the point of sale and point of receipt are the same. The tax is at the point of receipt, which happens to also be the point of sale.

    13. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Not so. The states have a right to collect taxes on things you buy if you buy them in the state. Where you receive them is where you "buy" them.

      What if I buy my parents a blood-pressure monitor and have it shipped - as a gift - to their residence in a different state? Where I bought it, and where it is received are two different places.

    14. Re:huh? by sexconker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not so. The states have a right to collect taxes on things you buy if you buy them in the state. Where you receive them is where you "buy" them. What is up for debate here is whether or not they collect the taxes from the merchant or the purchaser.

      They have no such right or power.

      What's happening here is someone is buying something from in another state, and thus not paying sales tax.
      States cannot collect sales tax in this matter. States don't get to dip into interstate commerce. That's a big fucking no-no. yes, some awful states force it anyway, illegally.

      States can ask its citizens to pay a use tax on things used in the state by the person that were not already tapped for sales tax. States just set the use tax to be identical to sales tax. But states abuse this shit. New Yorkers often get screwed and pay sales tax twice, or paying taxes on things billed to New York but delivered (and used) elsewhere.

      States just want more tax dollars. Squeezing online sales illegally for out of state sales tax in lieu of enforcing their use tax is bullshit. If you want the money and people aren't reporting it, audit some people and collect it. States don't have the authority to do anything else. The constitution expressly forbids it.

    15. Re:huh? by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. If you buy something for delivery elsewhere you pay tax for the place you bought it, not the place it's going.

    16. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do we really want a system where every person has to record and report the dollar value of every purchase they make online?

      Not only does that suck, it won't happen unless aggressively enforced, and every means of aggressive enforcement sucks even worse.

    17. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The easiest fix is for there to be a federal law that defines a sales tax as a tax on the seller, and all states with a sales tax have until {fill_in_the_date} to update their sales tax laws to comply with this definition. Also, "use tax" is abolished due to the possibility of double taxation, and since all states have the same definition of a sales tax, a use tax paid by the buyer should no longer be needed.

      Problem solved. Now all purchases are taxed in the location where the seller is located. In the case of remote-location orders, the seller's legal entity is located in a tax jurisdiction, and all of their sales that don't have a specific physical presence are located there too.

      The buyer's jurisdiction then has nothing to do with anything and can get very, very bent. If states want more sales tax revenue, they can do what it takes to attract more sellers to the area.

    18. Re:huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 0

      You're so backwards, your counties are called parishes.

      You're so backwards, you don't even realize they're still counties!

    19. Re:huh? by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Nope...only if there is a physical presence as the OP states. That can be anything from a warehouse or a sales office. I wonder how this will work out if it gets changed. Some states have no sales tax, others have around 4% while others have more than double that. Plus, counties and municipalities often have their own sales taxes as well. It also does not solve the question where an online trade takes place. In the state where the seller has the central office? In the state where the warehouse is? In the state where the server for the transaction is located (may even vary by minute to minute in the cloud!)? Or where the buyer is located? Other countries do not have this issue because the sales tax / VAT is the same everywhere in the country and federal/state/local figure it out on their terms who gets how much of the pot. Makes it a heckuva lot easier for businesses and consumers!!

    20. Re:huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where you receive them is where you "buy" them.

      Shouldn't it be the other way around: paying tax on the sale, wherever the item may be, and not the purchase?
      If anything, it should be in the state that hosts the website. If everyone starts flocking to Nevada for their IT needs, well...

    21. Re:huh? by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Not so. The states have a right to collect taxes on things you buy if you buy them in the state. Where you receive them is where you "buy" them. What is up for debate here is whether or not they collect the taxes from the merchant or the purchaser.

      Merchants contend that they have no filing requirements for states they do not have presence in, but the consumers do. Individuals are supposed to report and pay Sales Tax on things they bought and didn't pay sales tax.

      This is where enforcement should happen. Otherwise, e-tailers in Canada or other overseas places will have an edge over US e-tailers who will have to collect the tax. Also, once you pay sales tax, you cant deduct it. If your tax liability hits "0" on your income tax and you have deductions which are not refundable, then you lost out because of where the collection and reporting happens. If you report your purchases and pay the sales taxes yourselves, you may deduct more taxes since the number reported will be higher, and non-refundable deductions will lower your liability.

      Besides, do we really want a system where every e-tailer has to collect, report, and pay taxes to every jurisdiction in every country? The US alone has thousands of jurisdictions for sales tax at the state, county, and even city level. This is one of the effects of globalization. Sales tax should be collected from purchasers, not from retailers.

      In Canada, e-tailers do collect taxes. If the sale is for delivery in the same province as the vendor location, taxes are collected.

      Coming soon, will be a VAT tax. The e-tailer will have to collect a combined rate for provincial and federal taxes.
      Regarding foreign sales, they will collect taxes for the USA if and only if the USA has a single global tax that combines the collection for federal and state governments.

      All that can be audited, both by e-tailers on both sides of the border

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    22. Re:huh? by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      Nope...just due to being a predominately Catholic state.

      And maybe we have it right, you DO realize that New Orleans is older than the US, right? The city is celebrating 300 years this year, so, maybe since they were first, they had it right and the others had it wrong with counties?

      ;)

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    23. Re:huh? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They are still counties. Using a silly name doesn't stop other words from still existing. Also, counties are older than 300 years.

      You actually thought you guys invented counties! LOLOL

  2. tax me tax me tax me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    smack me in the balls

    1. Re:tax me tax me tax me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      nah, this is just trump using the gop-led scotus to attack Bezos, who has the temerity to publish stories that, while true, are not within trump's ability to admit

      Umm, you have that backwards. (Why doesn't that surprise me?)

      Amazon is likely behind this push since they have a physical presence in just about every US state so they're already collecting and paying sales taxes.

      Amazon also has the resources to determine what the sales tax for every political jurisdiction in the US happens to be, along with the resources to figure out which jurisdiction a customer actually resides in.

      Many of Amazon's competitors don't have that physical presence so aren't required to collect sales taxes. And they won't have the resources to determine the proper sales tax.

      This is quite likely Amazon trying to horse-fuck its competitors.

    2. Re: tax me tax me tax me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is hurting Amazonâ(TM)s third party sellers. If this passes, the harms to Amazon are expected to vastly surpass the benefits.

    3. Re:tax me tax me tax me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Amazon, the online merchandise juggernaut, will collect sales taxes from all states with a sales tax starting April 1."
      https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/2...

      previously:

      "After years of wrestling with state officials about Internet taxation, Amazon.com finally agreed last fall to begin collecting sales tax from its California customers.

      "But some of that tax revenue, perhaps millions of dollars a year, could wind up back in Amazon's pocket.

      "Rod Butler, city manager of Patterson. He said Patterson might share up to 75 percent of its sales tax windfall with the company.

      "Butler said he was told Amazon has the right to choose where [collected sales tax] money goes â" to either Patterson or San Bernardino. Because of that, both cities want to stay on Amazon's good side."

      http://www.mcclatchydc.com/new...

  3. They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Frobnicator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The earlier ruling was made because there was no law on the books either way.

    Normally if people or states think it was wrong, they should petition their congress-critters to pass a new law. New laws generally give new structure for the courts to follow. In this situation a new law would have allowed it.

    The lower courts have already said that there is no law in effect, and without a law the prior judgement of requiring an in-state presence applies. I don't think that should change. If people or states want it added, craft and pass a law to that effect.

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    1. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      >"The earlier ruling was made because there was no law on the books either way. "

      The US constitution prohibits states from taxing interstate commerce. That is the historical basis for states not taxing goods that are sold in other states and brought into the state in question.

    2. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't petition anything. I assert my authority, and ignore those taxes. If the state thinks they have authority, then THEY can take it to court, but I will not pay any until there is a court ruling on it.

    3. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All the same, it's hard to see the legal argument for taxing someone who doesn't do anything in your state. If I send a package to Sri Lanka (for example), I'm not subject to Sri Lanka law. They can confiscate the package or something, but they can't make me pay taxes.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the historical basis for states not taxing goods that are sold in other states and brought into the state in question.

      Really? All the time? I'll have to go out of state the next time I buy a car.

    5. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      All the same, it's hard to see the legal argument for taxing someone who doesn't do anything in your state.

      If a company is shipping purchases to customers, it hardly "doesn't do anything" in the state in which the customers live.

      If I send a package to Sri Lanka (for example), I'm not subject to Sri Lanka law. They can confiscate the package or something, but they can't make me pay taxes.

      Countries can and do have customs fees and tariffs that must be paid before importing products. If those fees aren't paid, the package isn't let in.

    6. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a "use" tax for that and it is generally so similar to sales tax that it is the same rate but sometimes it is different.

    7. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they can't make me pay taxes.

      They're not making you pay taxes---they're ordering you to collect taxes from their residents on their behalf---mostly because residents don't pay said taxes at the end of the year. The argument is still the same, why should the company bother enforcing the sales tax in states it doesn't operate in?

    8. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go to Oregon. All my friends in Washington State drive down to Oregon for big purchases. I guess there's a Costco right over the border.(?)

    9. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      It is sales tax, not VAT. They are taxing the customer; the merchant is “merely” responsible for collecting and reporting it.

    10. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? All the time? I'll have to go out of state the next time I buy a car.

      In order to drive the car on public roads, you have to register it. Your state won't tax the importation of the car, but will charge you a similar amount to register it.

    11. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A law without enforcement is asking for trouble.

      Enforcing this law requires customs barriers at the US state, county and city level. Here's how it works currently:
      https://www.taxjar.com/states/illinois-sales-tax-online/#how-to-collect-sales-tax-in-illinois
      _____
      Example: You live and run your business in Joliet, Illinois in the 60431 zip code. The tax rate there is the total of the 6.25% Illinois state sales tax rate, the .75% Will County Rate and 1.75% Joliet rate, for a total of 8.75% sales tax. Since Illinois is an origin-based state, you would charge all of your buyers in Illinois that 8.75% rate.

      If you have more than one location in Illinois, then you would base the sales tax rate you charge on the point of origin of your sale.
      _____

      Setting up real physical customs barriers is too much trouble (and perhaps runs afoul of the law), so states will demand sellers and logistics providers enforce their laws. Goods will have to be accompanied by paperwork (perhaps, electronic attestation) that guarantees the necessary local taxes are paid. Every time some random city changes their tax rates, millions of sellers in the US (maybe all across the world) will have to jump up and take notice.

      Finally, what happens if the seller, buyer and recipient and seller's warehouse are all in different states. (Say, I purchase something online for my parents). The state that I live in should get taxes (or maybe, the state the seller is in). The recipient state should have no say (not unless they want to double-tax, or impose a customs tarriff).

      If the US really wants to tax internet sales, then this situation cries out for regulation by the US Congress. They have the constitutional mandate ..."To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes."

      Perhaps put a flat title of 10% on internet sales, with no other further taxation allowed.

    12. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Also if you buy a car from a private party, you have to declare what you paid for it when you're transferring the registry. They then assess the sales tax on the amount of your purchase.

      That's one of the reasons why family members 'sell' their used cars to one another for very low prices.

    13. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how do you think VAT works?

      The only difference between sales taxes and VAT is that VAT is theoretically applied all along the chain.
      Actually, VAT-registered entities either don’t pay (same as sales taxes, but without the need for resale certificates) or they deduce what they paid as customers from what they collected from their customers as sellers, and pay or are refunded the difference.

      The final customer is the one who pays in the end. The tax is collected by the seller or by the customs.

      If a state wants to collect a tax from an out-of-state seller, either make interstate agreements (like EU did for VAT) or set up customs.

    14. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually No,

      The constitution give the federal government the right to regulate interstate commerce.

      So they can pass a law that says you can't collect sales tax from out of state entities. But they could also pass a law that says you have to collect sales tax for any state you are shipping a product to.

    15. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      The US constitution prohibits states from taxing interstate commerce.

      South Dakota isn't looking to regulate commerce between Minnesota and Iowa. It's looking to tax products shipped to South Dakota residents - so what's the anti-tax argument again? If you're in SD and order some crap from Amazon and don't want to pay taxes - feel free to drive to the nearest Amazon warehouse and try to pick it up.

    16. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      What part of no internal tariffs don't you understand? SD can try a use tax, but a retailer in another state has no obligation to report transactions.

    17. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      In cases like that they usually require the recipient to pay the tax.

      The EU requires all members to have sales tax within a certain bracket (around 20%) and it is always paid.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    18. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's the law in many states in America, too. For example, in California, if I buy something mail-order or online, I am required to report it on my taxes. It is mostly not enforced, though.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    19. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The thing is, unless you've got a business presence in that State, they don't have any jurisdiction to assess a tax.

      It is no different than if the State of Florida passed a law that said everybody in the State of New York had to pay them a thousand dollars a year, for whatever reason they made up. The courts aren't going to look at the reason, they're going to say no, the laws of Florida don't apply in New York so they aren't allowed to tax them.

    20. Re: They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No reason at all may be a bit of the problem there. But you aren't really grasping the situation, because actually, Florida does collect a lot of taxes from New Yorkers. Tourism is one way, but also taxing the property of New Yorkers who own them in Florida.

      There's an interesting intersection where as property owners in Florida, a New Yorker can vote on certain subjects in Florida.

      Not all the time but occasionally.

    21. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Uberbah · · Score: 0

      What part of this commerce taking place in South Dakota don't you understand? If Amazon wants to sell crap to customers in SD, they can pay SD sales taxes. Tie yourself up into knots if you want, but it's not a hard concept to grasp.

    22. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by ebvwfbw · · Score: 1

      Maryland has been known to stop furniture trucks on the Baltimore Beltway that were obviously from North Carolina on their way to a home to collect Maryland's - at the time 5% sales tax. They also are very good at collecting sales tax if you buy an airplane. Almost all the time it's going to be in another state. They have a very efficient, vigilant tax collection service for that. They mine the FAA records.

      I'm sure we're close to Maryland getting their grubby little hands on sales from things like DH Gate, Ebay, Alibaba, etc.

      Excuse me Mr John Public, we see that you purchased $50,000 worth of Stainless tank. Please pay your sales taxes on it, or else we'll pay you a little visit.
      - Signed friendly neighborhood tax collector (aka tax thug). BTW we'll be reporting this purchase to law enforcement so they can see why you purchased this tank.

    23. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by hawk · · Score: 1

      I am a lawyer, but this isn't legal advice. I charge for that.

      No, it isn't comparable to that at all.

      All or nearly all states have a "use tax" in the same amount as their "sales tax." Almost everywhere, both of these taxes are on on the purchaser, not the seller. In the sales tax case, the vendor is required to collect that tax on the buyer for the state and hold it in trust. (The only exception I know is California, for which the tax is on the seller. The only practical difference is if the merchant late files bankruptcy, making California's dischargeable after a time if the returns were filed).

      Anyway, the taxes already exist, and are on the buyer, not the seller. The questions is not whether the tax exists, but whether the seller can be compelled to collect the taxes on behalf of fifty states, a few territories, and the zillions of subdivisions.

      If every city could require its own tax return, it would be so burdensome as to take out every seller other than amazon (and maybe walmart). In fact, the compliance costs would exceed the taxes for most sellers. (sidenote: prior to last month's changes, compliance cost for the US corporate tax were twice the revenue raised).

      Now, at some level of sales volume, the burden becomes relatively small compared to the profits, and it stops being unreasonable, at least in principle.

      Note that the prior law is *NOT* that the taxes cannot be assessed, or even that states can't require them, but rather that in the absence of Congressional action, the states can only look to their residents, not the out of state vendors.

      I really don't expect that to change (in fact, it is really hard to argue the position that Wyoming can constitutionally impose an obligation on the Wyoming vendor).

      Rather, there will be some rulings reached along the way to a similar result, which serve to clarify that this is Congress' job.

      Twenty years ago, the sane thing to do was leave the infant internet alone and see what happened; maybe these small vendors would change the world or something.

      Today, the sane Congressional solution would be to require a single monthly report and payment, with the report broken down by zip code. (and for those jurisdictions that have multiple rates within a zip code, that's just too bad. Get your act together).

      To be clear, states would have to opt in to this federal program (but those that didn't would be stuck trying to collect from their own residents).

      A threshold on sales for having to file would be appropriate. Given that, as the world has worked out, most sales of very small merchants occur through amazon, eBay, etc., tacking this on to their system would be a minimal cost (in fact, they could take care of it entirely, leaving no burden on the seller).

      For that matter, there's not a compelling reason not to simply apply this to *all* sales for such aggregators that collect the funds; it would even be simpler.

      hawk

    24. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You spend a lot of words blathering really simple stuff that you'd know I know if you had noticed I made an informed comment already. And you were replying to it to disagree, but you don't have any disagreement in your text. You simply purport to disagree because I used common English and it befuddled you.

      My advice, look it up to see if what I said was true. You said a bunch of stuff that is true, but you're simply wrong in claiming that it contradicts anything I said. You may be a lawyer, but you're also kinda full of shit here. The stuff you said is part of what one side will be saying to the Court to try to get them to change things.

      Also, you really do not understand words very well.

      Note that the prior law is *NOT* that the taxes cannot be assessed, or even that states can't require them, but rather that in the absence of Congressional action, the states can only look to their residents, not the out of state vendors.

      That isn't self-consistent. You're trying to play a word game to get around it, but your word game is about something different than what I said. What I said was that the State of Florida can't pass a tax on people in the State of New York. You're arguing against that with an argument that is for a different situation; when a person conflates taxing the buyer vs taxing the seller. What I actually said was that the State of Florida cannot tax people not under their jurisdiction. So no, it is not up the State of Florida, as you contend, to go after the citizens of New York, but rather, as I said, they cannot assess a tax on those people. And it won't end up mattering which person in New York, buyer or seller, that Florida wants to tax.

      Congress is welcome to pass a law requiring states who do collect a sales or use tax to require reciprocal reporting with other states that also require it, but you're going to need some very new rulings from the Court before you manage to put requirements on people in states like Oregon that have neither of those things.

    25. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by hawk · · Score: 1

      > That isn't self-consistent.

      No, you missed everything. That is simply what the law is right now, despite your attempt to impose your own structure on it.

      >but your word game is about something different than what I said.

      My "word game" is explaining that what you wrote just isn't the issue here, but rather a common misconception.

      Texas cannot pass a tax on a New York Merchant.

      But no such tax is involved when Texas imposes a use tax on a Texan for a purchase from a New York merchant. The issue is that it can only look to the Texan, not the yorker.

      (Actually, at *some* level of sales, the yorker would have sufficient contacts with Texas that Texas could assert jurisdiction under International Shoe and its progeny, but that would only make money for lawyers, and the costs of litigating these would drive what happened).

      >Congress is welcome to pass a law requiring states who do collect a sales or use tax to require
      >reciprocal reporting with other states that also require it,

      There are issues about mandating the state participation. Again, states probably have to opt in

      >but you're going to need some very new rulings from the Court before you manage to put
      >requirements on people in states like Oregon that have neither of those things.

      No, not if you are actually familiar with the past rulings. USSC has made it clear that they are interpreting in the absence of legislation, no mandating. This is properly Congress' domain, not the courts. However, when Congress doesn't act, the courts still have to handle disputes.

      As I wrote, it would be difficult to force states in, but Congress can also regulate the shipments themselves if it comes to it. Even if it can't force a state in (that could go either way at the USSC), it can impose requirements on the shippers.

      And as a practical matter, states without sales taxes have nothing to collect, so might want not to opt in (again, assuming their Constitutional issue is decided in their favor), so as to give their merchants an edge in other states. For better or worse (and I'd argue worse), Congress has been quite effective in using road construction and other issues to trample on state prerogatives in the past (55, .08, and so forth). Or different postal rates for states that opt in. Or (more practically) regulating the large sites that most sellers use to get found. Or an excise tax on the act of shipping (rather than the goods themselves) out of that state. Or . . .

      But in the end, this is for Congress.

    26. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Frobnicator · · Score: 1

      I think the two of you are talking past each other. The current precedent is that the seller must have a presence in that state to deal with that state's taxes. If they don't have anything to do with the state already, only putting the address on the package, they don't need to worry about it.

      If the seller has a presence in the same state as the buyer, then the seller collects sales tax and reports it to the state. They would already do that anyway, so not a big deal to require it.

      If the seller does not have a presence in the same state as the buyer, then the seller does not do anything regarding the taxes in the buyer's state, they can ship without collecting their state taxes. The state can require the individual to file a "use tax", but the seller is under no obligation.

      The case is about South Dakota wanting businesses that have nothing to do with the state, that have no presence in the state, that have never done any paperwork to do business within the state, to be obligated to file paperwork and other filings to South Dakota. In short order this means every retailer in the country will need to file reports with all 50 states if they have anybody who lives out of their states. This is the burden the SCOTUS said they were trying to avoid with the last ruling.

      Amazon is one of only a handful of major companies that could handle the paperwork for all states without a massive burden. Even they're gaining physical presence in many states through their acquisitions and growth. I cannot think of other major online retailers who don't have a sales presence in most states already.

      --
      //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
    27. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Of course they're intrepretting in absense of legislation when they're in absence of legislation, pointing that out just underlines why you've failed to communicate; you're just talking without reading what you're responding to. You can't even tell what parts you actually disagree with, and what parts I used different words that you, because all you know is the patterns of words you were trained to use; you don't actually understand the legal meaning, so when I talk about the legal meaning using plain English, instead of looking like I explained part of it in English, you just start disagreeing. Or purporting to disagree, when you're really just saying you think a different aspect is more important. But no, thinking another part is more important does not succeed in offering any contradiction of substance.

    28. Re:They should talk to Congress, not courts. by WorBlux · · Score: 1

      It doesn't take place in SD, it's interstate commerce. Only 1/2 the act and 1/2 of the parties are subject to SD law. Sales tax is a tax for doing business within a state, and a tax on business done between states is unconstitutional. SD may put put a tax on the first use after commerce is complete, but this act is unrelated to the seller, and can not impose obligations upon the seller.

  4. Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause? by schwit1 · · Score: 1
    The commerce clause has been anything but dormant since 1942. The courts have consistently ruled that Congress can regulate pretty much anything and everything because of the commerce clause.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

  5. Correct but legally dumb by Scareduck · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Quill invoked the Commerce Clause because the United States is set up as a free trade zone. If the states could regulate interstate commerce, they would start engaging in tariff wars -- as they did under the Articles of Confederation. To say this is "judge-created" is to express some rather deep ignorance about the Founders' intentions.

    --

    Dog is my co-pilot.

  6. it needs to be easy. by harrkev · · Score: 1

    OK. I admit that, with the increase in online sales, a full-blown internet sales tax will almost certainly happen one day. However, my wife owns an Internet business. Will she have to file paperwork in all 50 states? How about county and city taxes?

    For this to actually be feasible, we need some sort of government web site where you list sales by zip code. They give you an amount and you pay it. That site distributes the money to the various cities and states. Otherwise, the paperwork will drown a small business.

    --
    "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    1. Re:it needs to be easy. by Mahldcat · · Score: 2

      Don't you think this is the end goal....big business wants to kill out the small guy?

    2. Re:it needs to be easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK. I admit that, with the increase in online sales, a full-blown internet sales tax will almost certainly happen one day. .

      It shouldn't. Sales taxes are regressive in nature. As long as we have the income tax, it is inefficient to also have a sales tax: there is extra overhead and worse distribution of the burden.

    3. Re:it needs to be easy. by Jonathan+C.+Patschke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's worse than that.

      Texas, for instance, has state, county, and local sales taxes (usually just the city). The state rate is constant (with exceptions for differing types of goods, some of which are totally exempt and some of which have a portion of the price exempt). The county and local tax rates are usually—but not required by statute to be—constant within those counties and localities, but cities sometimes stretch across county lines, and then there are addresses with a city associated (because of the nearest post office) but that are actually outside the boundaries of the local taxing jurisdiction. Very little of this can be determined by ZIP code because those are allocated to the servicing Post Office rather than political subdivisions.

      The other states with sales taxes probably aren't much saner.

      No, if taxes must be collected based on destination, this is going to be another rent-seeking cottage-industry that exists entirely because some government goons disconnected from reality decided that something that was easy-to-write-down couldn't possibly be a complete pain in the ass to comply with. Square or PayPal or whatever will collect the taxes plus some compliance overhead fee and distribute it on your behalf. Compliance would be a completely unreasonable burden for small businesses to undertake themselves.

      --
      Pining for the days when The Glorious MEEPT!!! graced SlapDash with his wisdom.
    4. Re:it needs to be easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And, actually, it's worse than this. For a while in my state, if you were a plumber, and bought supplies for new construction, you paid the tax, and didn't charge the end users. If the supplies were for an improvement, you didn't pay the tax, and the end user did.

      Oh, and if you create a document in Microsoft Word, and save it as a word document, you don't charge sales tax. If you save it in HTML format, it's considered programming, and you do charge sales tax. Like that isn't fucked up.

    5. Re:it needs to be easy. by Jonathan+C.+Patschke · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that. Texas has dumb things about "data processing" versus "programming," where 20% of one is exempt and the other is (AFAIK) non-taxable unless it was part of the task of generating a report (web sites are included in this definition of "report," so front-end programming is always taxable), so writing a program for a client and getting them to run it for you can actually save them some tax if you're playing to the letter of the law.

      And then there's nonsense about whether or not a thing is taxable based on why you did it. If you're an architect and produce a drawing in AutoCAD as part of the production of a design for a client, that's non-taxable. If you're an architect and produce a drawing in AutoCAD because your client handed you a sketch (or a drawing in some other program's format), the labor involved in creating the AutoCAD document is taxable. There are analogues in bookkeeping, where doing tax-prep things as part of bookkeeping are nontaxable, but doing tax-prep things in order to produce payroll (and, AFAIK, only payroll) tax documents is taxable.

      Coordinating this BS on a national level would either require some sort of uniformity of the sales tax systems first (yay!) or would be too onerous for small firms to handle. Maybe for strictly retail/resale a small company could do it, but consulting or any sort of value-add would be nearly impossible across state lines.

      --
      Pining for the days when The Glorious MEEPT!!! graced SlapDash with his wisdom.
    6. Re:it needs to be easy. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sales by zip code will not work, because zip codes do not follow municipal lines. The U.S. Post Office determines the zip code for a particular address based on the particular post office which they believe it will be most convenient to deliver the mail from. This has no relationship to what local municipality that address is in. In order for this to work it would be necessary for there to be a database which contains the taxing jurisdiction for EVERY address in the United States.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    7. Re:it needs to be easy. by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      However, my wife owns an Internet business. Will she have to file paperwork in all 50 states? How about county and city taxes?

      Whyever do you think taxation will be limited to the USA, and not include every country in the world (all of which want your money paid in taxes)?

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    8. Re:it needs to be easy. by harrkev · · Score: 1

      Crap. The story just keeps getting worse.

      Still, it remains to be seen if the taxes collected will just be by state, or if it will include counties and cities.

      It might not come this year, but I am 99% certain that this tax loohole will be closed in the next decade.

      --
      "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
    9. Re:it needs to be easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like Avalara has? Thats what we use for digital commerce. Just call out for them with the cart information and they return the various tax information. It gets even more complicated than simply sales tax as some jurisdictions also tax shipping. Some even tax sales but not shipping which is a particularly annoying combination.

    10. Re: it needs to be easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How do you think it works in the EU?

      The VAT system incentivises business to make this work.

    11. Re:it needs to be easy. by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      The worst I've heard of is Lousianna where there are more than 1000 separate taxing districts and the taxes rates are different for different items, as an example milk may have no tax in one district and 1% in another district. So not only are there separate districts but the rates and even which items have which tax are different, it creates a table with millionths of possibilities for only a single state. On top of that the rates and items generally change every single year.

      It's problems like this that make it problematic to support sales tax. The ideal solution is a solution at the national level that defines a base taxation for each state for out of state buyers that ignores all the special districts. Baring that it's still possible to support such convoluted systems if the states are forced to make their data available for free via a defined format that vendors can tap into. Right now many states charge for access to this taxing information.

    12. Re:it needs to be easy. by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Technically, it is not a loophole. As far as I know, every state which has sales tax also has use tax which is the same except that the individual is responsible to pay it directly to the state rather than the merchant being required to collect it.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    13. Re:it needs to be easy. by dewright_ca · · Score: 1

      Department of Revenue Employee

      Each state is responsible for supporting and maintaining a list of logical locations. On a fixed schedule we refresh this data to reflect new/changes in rates as well as municipal annexations to expand a city and shift addresses from the unincorporated areas of the county/parish to the city.

      This data is provided to the businesses to use to determine what the appropriate tax is based on the type of transaction.

      The use a zipcode boundaries doesn't work (first, there is no such thing as a true zipcode boundary), as these areas usually don't match the incorporated and unincorporated areas they serve. So no City/County/State could tax a person based on this since they would be a high likely hood of people being incorrectly and unfairly taxed; in our past this lead to a revolution.

      Those are just a few blurbs I can spew off the top of my head; but as I work and support the Sales Tax system for my state; I am well versed and depended on to ensure that properly flows.

      --
      He who is always at the bottom of the distribution list, but needs the information first!
    14. Re:it needs to be easy. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      this is why we need the federal CONgress critters to pass a simple bill to deal with this:
      1) have the shipping company collect 10% tax on the item.
      2) they are to keep 1% for doing the work and remit 9% to the feds
      3) the feds keep 2% and then forwards 7% to the state in which the item was delivered (not the billing).
      4) the state then decides how to deal with that 7%.

      With this approach, it is simple for everyone; the seller, the buyer, the shipper, the feds and the state. The only issue is would all the states go along with it? Thankfully, it is the feds that decide this issue, not all the states. And if they do not want the 7%, then let the feds keep it and pay down our massive debt.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    15. Re:it needs to be easy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As somebody that lives in Beverly Hills, CA, most of the Beverly Hills addresses are actually in the city of Los Angeles because our Post Office delivers their mail. This causes all types of problems when some people try to use city services that are reserved for residents.

    16. Re:it needs to be easy. by hawk · · Score: 1

      That would require a constitutional amendment for the same reason as the income tax did: its a direct federal tax not allocated by population.

      hawk, esq.

    17. Re:it needs to be easy. by hawk · · Score: 1

      >Sales by zip code will not work, because zip codes do not follow municipal lines.

      That's just too bad.

      Zip code already exists in all transactions.

      The five digit sips can be changed, or the localities or states can solve the division for the zip code.

      Using zip is the least burdensome way to deal with distribution, and those jurisdictions unwilling to accept that can just not opt in and try to collect the tax themselves . . .

      hawk

    18. Re:it needs to be easy. by hawk · · Score: 1

      yep. needed because it *is* a direct tax.

      Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons

      From Article I, section 2.

      For this reason, the USSC struck down the income tax. as a direct tax.

      Subsequently, the the XVIth amendment created an *exception* to this limit, not a reversal. Save for the income tax, direct taxes remain banned without apportionment.

      hawk

  7. Amazon loves this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See, Amazon has a physical presence in nearly all big states anyway so it has already worked out sales tax deals nearly everywhere already.

    You know who *hasn't* done that? Smaller competitors, and believe me $100K of sales in a state doesn't make you a "big" competitor especially when your total profits on that $100K are probably on the order of $10K or so (maybe).

    What's even better are all the posts from people here talking about how the "big evil" companies don't pay their fair share when it's the big evil ones that want rules like this in place to hurt their competitors.

    1. Re:Amazon loves this! by slickwillie · · Score: 2

      Alexa: The Feds want to allow internet sales taxes.

      Bezos: Then buy the US Government.

      Alexa: We already did.

    2. Re: Amazon loves this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amazon collects 8% tax in Alabama. Alabama allows a 3% discount for timely remittance. Amazon just increased profits 3% across the board on the things they sell in Alabama. Gee, wonder why they started collecting taxes?

  8. for some it feels like this has already happened by bjdevil66 · · Score: 1

    Because Amazon has a physical presence in my state (AZ) and I do a lot of my online shopping there first before venturing elsewhere, I already pay an (admittedly annoying) sales taxes on many of my purchases.

    This issue (sales taxes) also seems like they can more easily be enforced now than back in 1992. Back then, the idea of tracking where purchases are made seemed like a daunting task to do accurately. Nowadays, my browser knows generally where I'm at within a few miles, and with cell phone purchases your location is easy to surmise.

    While getting accurate tax rates is a burden, it's much easier to overcome for web apps and sites.

    Do I WANT sales taxes on what I buy off of every site I visit? No. But some of the more technical reasons to not have those taxes collected don't hold much weight anymore.

  9. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Wickard_v._Filburn emasculated states' rights and the 10th amendment.

  10. Income and sales tax, pick one by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

    I can't recall what ancient civilization declared it, but they said taxation over 20% was slavery (not that they thought slavery was bad, just how they defined it). If we're going to be taxed for our money both coming and going we are in the same boat. There needs to taxes on either income, or expendatures, not both. The USA has not been free in almost 100 years since the income tax was implemented.

    1. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Haha. We're not just being taxed on income and expenditures.

      We're being taxed on income, expenditures, property, debts, exercising Constitutionally recognized rights, and refunds from cases of admitted over-withholdings.

      On top of all that, the income tax law alone has grown from a few sentences to an enormous library of vaguely written cross-references. Everyone is guilty of tax evasion by some defensible interpretation of that horrid tangle.

    2. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by PeeAitchPee · · Score: 1

      The USA has not been free in almost 100 years since the income tax was implemented.

      Try almost 157 years. Abe Lincoln implemented the country's first Federal income tax in August 1861 to fund the American Civil War.

    3. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by DallasTruaxxx · · Score: 1

      Taxation is theft. Regardless of whether or not you agree with taxes, they are compulsory. Your agreement is irrelevant. And if you neglect or refuse to pay them, then someone with a gun is going to come along, eventually, and force you to part with the product of your labor. And if you resist this robbery, and are effective enough in your resistance, you will be summarily murdered without trial. It does not matter that you enjoy occasional kick-backs from your robber. That does not make taxation any less theft. It does not matter that the robber turns around and builds roads and other neat things that you can enjoy. The fact is: Taxes are collected at the point of a gun. I give in to the the robber every year, without fail, because I want to have a long life. I would happily volunteer a portion of my yearly largess if asked, just as I donate to several worthy causes (Worthy in my estimation, perhaps not to yours) but... no one is asking, they are demanding, threatening and bullying.

    4. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by kqs · · Score: 1

      Your quote sounds like something that was made up to (badly) prove a point...

      But I don't really understand the hatred for multiple forms of taxation. Let's say a state needs to raise $30 billion in taxes to fulfill the budget. They could set income taxes such that they raise $30B or sales taxes for $30B or property taxes for $30B. Or they could raise $10B from each of income/sales/property taxes. How is that last one worse than the others?

      In fact, if you get 100% of your tax income in one area, that makes it easier for people to game the system. Set your permanent address in a place with no income tax, buy large goods in a place with no sales tax. Only the wealthy can play those games effectively, but when one wealthy person does that, thousands of non-wealthy folks end up paying more to balance out. Having some taxes on each area makes it harder to avoid all taxes.

      The USA has never been 100% free nor 100% not free. If income taxes are your major mark of "freedom", well, you can choose to be free! While Pennsylvania's budget is over $30B, Somalia's budget is less than $300M! (Less than 1% of a US state.) Yes, you can move to Somalia and pay almost no taxes and be almost completely free.

    5. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by packrat0x · · Score: 1

      I can't recall what ancient civilization declared it, but they said taxation over 20% was slavery (not that they thought slavery was bad, just how they defined it).

      It was Egypt. The tax was imposed by Joseph, circa 1900 BC. It was still enforced until at least 1950 AD.

      --
      227-3517
    6. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

      But you're suggesting different systems in different parts of the USA. I'm saying do one or the other, not a mix.

    7. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

      Thank you! I was thinking either Rome or Egypt.

    8. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by kqs · · Score: 1

      Huh? No, I said the exact opposite:

      Let's say a state needs to raise $30 billion in taxes to fulfill the budget. They could set income taxes such that they raise $30B or sales taxes for $30B or property taxes for $30B. Or they could raise $10B from each of income/sales/property taxes. How is that last one worse than the others?

      And I said that a mix was probably better for stopping tax cheats, if that is a goal. So what is wrong with a mix? I mean, I like steak, I like potatoes, and I like green beans. A small portion of each sounds like a good meal. Only a two-pound steak or only three potatos or only a bushel of beans sounds like a terrible meal to me, though tastes differ.

    9. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

      I disagree. The more types there are, the more lawyers get used to circumvent a complex system. If we have an income tax, make it a flat rate across the board with limits on deductions. When I was brand new in the Air Force I paid $127 federal tax and got a return over $9000 (Dragonball reference!). I obviously took it, but found the system to be messed up. That's without having a tax-free deployment like I'm on now even. But I'd prefer eliminating income tax, and only have tax taken as you spend.

    10. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by kqs · · Score: 1

      I assume you hate the recent tax bill, then, since it adds lots of deductions. It's odd that politicians who talk about flat taxes and getting rid of loopholes and deductions always vote to add more deductions, and voters still vote for them.

      I agree that the tax code is messed up, but of the roughly 70000 pages of tax code, maybe 50 cover the tax brackets while the other 69950 cover the various loopholes, deductions, and credits. A flat tax would remove about 40 pages; removing loopholes would remove a LOT more, so I'd prefer to focus on the loopholes.

    11. Re:Income and sales tax, pick one by ArtemaOne · · Score: 1

      Yeah, recent tax bill is, as expected, more convoluted than what we had before. If we got rid of income tax it would fix almost all the deductions.

  11. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you could make an effort to google things you don't understand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dormant_Commerce_Clause, it is not implying the Commerce clause is dormant it is the legal principal that states cannot regulate interstate commerce because that is the job of Congress.

  12. Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollected by Fly+Swatter · · Score: 1

    You are supposed to report uncollected sales tax from out of state purchases on your PA income tax form. It has a line item, but of course almost no one does that. The tax is really on your purchase and not the sellers sale (yea I know it's called a SALES tax), it's just a convenience for the state since individuals will almost never bother to report it themselves.

    Putting the burden on out of state sellers doesn't seem right either, but I dunno.

  13. completely unworkable by FeelGood314 · · Score: 1

    Charge an extra $0.10 cents for a particular counties sales tax and then spend $20 in administrative time trying to mail that $0.10 to them? A small business that might sell under $20 a year to all of North Dakota would likely just say, fuck it, we don't ship there, get a postal box in Manitoba, Canada.

    Further the tax rules are a mess in most places. Shoes, taxable, children's shoes no tax. Food under x dollars one rate, over another rate....

    1. Re:completely unworkable by kqs · · Score: 1

      You seem to have no faith in the free market. If this becomes law, I'm quite certain that the same companies which handle credit card transactions will happily start handling sales taxes too. They'll just pull the sales taxes out of their payments to each merchant, and will send each municipality one payment with the taxes from all of their merchants. And keeping track of what should be taxed at which rate is hard, but it seems like the sort of thing that a computer should be able to do easily enough.

    2. Re:completely unworkable by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      You seem to have no faith in the free market.

      Yea that tends to happen when people use logical reasoning, since the closest thing to a "free market" that exists today would be the economy of Somalia.

      I don't know anyone who thinks Somalian economics is a good idea.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:completely unworkable by kqs · · Score: 1

      I agree, but we don't need the whole free market for this. We only need the part where people want to take your money in return for doing something you cannot. Handling sales tax to every municipality is beyond the abilities of most small or medium businesses, but any large business could handle it easily and could charge for the service. Sure, it's another opportunity to rent-seek and to disadvantage small businesses, but if we want to stop THAT then this is the wrong place to start.

  14. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sales tax is a scam. The federal government and state government already take taxes from my income. Why the fuck am I getting taxed on income that was already taxed?

  15. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by uncqual · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The term "Dormant Commerce Clause" refers to a rather specific doctrine that the courts have imposed on the states. The "Dormant Commerce Clause" doesn't exist in the text of the Constitution and it is a limit on the power of states rather than an additional power of Congress "found" in the penumbras of the Constitution by the courts.

    This doctrine holds that since Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce (a power given to them by the "Commerce Clause" in Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution: "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;"), it has that right exclusively and individual states are prohibited from doing so. For example, California can't impose a tariff on oranges imported from Florida - although they could put a tax on all oranges sold regardless of their origin.

    (Hmm... In spite of the Dormant Commerce Clause, as of a week or so ago, California has made it illegal to import ammunition purchased in another state without going through a California dealer. Sounds like it's time to invoke the Dormant Commerce Clause!)

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  16. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by peterd11 · · Score: 0

    I generally agree, but sales tax is based on the *delivery* location. It makes no difference at all where you place the order from.

  17. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The thing is, though, that the rate is only part of it. The simple part. What is and isn't taxed, and under what circumstances something is taxed, is what's a pain in the ass. Sometimes just dealing with it in the state you live in can be a pain. Some items tax status can change depending on how it's used.

  18. Re:Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In California, the govtards call it "use tax" and implement a (rarely used) self-reporting mechanism. However, the state government seems to somehow know about at least some out-of-state purchases and they crack down heavily when the value is over a certain amount. The additional fine is very high, according to hearsay...

  19. Re:Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollect by Frobnicator · · Score: 1

    I think that's the rule for every state with sales tax, so 45 of the 50 states. If you didn't pay sales tax to the state and you use it in the state, there's a "use tax" that applies instead of a sales tax. Effectively it is the same thing, just different groups sending in the money.

    I think the lower courts already got this right, there is no need for the SCOTUS to review the decision.

    The first time it came up there was no law on the books, so the courts ruled that they need a presence in the state. Otherwise there is an enormous burden to figure out taxes, collect them, report them, and send them in to all the different states. If they already have a presence in the state then they're already doing the paperwork so collecting and submitting the taxes is not a large burden. The lower courts already agreed with the precedent and said that was the case, they need a presence in the state to collect sales tax for the state. If they don't have a presence in the state then it is up to the individuals to file with their own state taxes.

    Over the decades there was no change in federal law or federal policy on the matter. Congress could pass a law if they want something different. It would still be a a burden to make small businesses file taxes in every state, that burden hasn't gone away.

    --
    //TODO: Think of witty sig statement
  20. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by PPH · · Score: 1

    sales tax is based on the *delivery* location

    Dead drop on the local Indian reservation. Problem solved.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  21. Interstate Commerc by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Internet purchases IMHO should be covered under the interstate Commerce Clause. It very much depends on interstate infrastructure. Let the tax be a base federal tax that is then dispersed as the federal government sees fit. Perhaps on infrastructure, highways, fiber roll outs, etc.

  22. Favoring large companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Destination based taxation are simply more laws that hurt small businesses.

    Here in Washington State, we already have this for in-state purchases. As a small business, we have to track and report to each and every taxing district. This within itself isn't TOO bad, but it does indeed increase our overhead. What hurts more is an additional law on top of this. We now have a public transit based sales tax in state. When it was source based tax, we only worried about the warehouses that were inside or outside of the transit tax zones. Now we have to worry about literally every single shipment that goes out the door. How small are these zones though? They're based on the full ZIP+4 code. That's right, it goes all the way down to the individual block level of streets if they're within it or not. The database provided by the State of Washington to keep track of this contains over 1 million lines of data. This database is also updated quarterly. This required a significant change to our entire ecommerce platform, as well as continued maintenance just to stay within compliance.

    So now imagine if retailers on the other side of the country have to worry about WA sales tax laws, and how bullshit they are. Plus doing some research, other states have just as convoluted combinations of laws. Now every small business will have to be aware of 50 states (plus some other regions) worth of laws that are constantly changing, literally just to stay in business.

    This is a MASSIVE overhead added to a business that simply never ends.

    Amazon, eBay, Walmart, etc all work at a massive scale and have the resources to keep up with all of these changes. Small businesses simply do not. This is just another way to lobby the killing of the little guys.

    1. Re: Favoring large companies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every state (and municipality) wants to get their money. Itâ(TM)s just a matter of time before they start getting together and devising a common solution to this. A national version of what you already have.

  23. It is done by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    I distinctly remember a row a few years back where people panicked Congress might not renew a ban on states taxing Internet commerce. Then they renewed it.

    So wht the heck is all this then?

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  24. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 0

    You’re just pretending to be stupid, right? You’re not actually bein serious are you?

  25. SCOTUS will increase taxes on everyone else by WillAffleckUW · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but that's what this means.

    TANFL

    --
    -- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
    1. Re:SCOTUS will increase taxes on everyone else by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. Go die in a fire.

  26. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because you’re a little peon bitch. Bend over, cuck, and get that tight, white ass fucked by Uncle Sam’s veiny, girthy dick.

  27. Government can't do with one Penny by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Less than LAST year :(

  28. Sales Taxes Regressive & Easy for wealth to ev by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    We could do without sales tax and go with income and property taxes including the old fashion luxury item taxes.

    Only a few states don't already have an income tax, automobile, and property tax system in place.

    Place additional taxes on liquor that costs over $40 per liter, electrical usage over double the average household usage, on premium concert tickets and restaurant meals over $40 per person.

    Tax investment income. Limit the amount of 'tax free' income anyone can have to 20% of the countries average income (so about $10,400 per year right now).

    But drop sales tax. You are taxing too many people living in poverty. In some states they even tax unprepared food. That's literally taking food out of children's mouths.

    Look, 10% of the country has over 95% of the countries wealth and about 80% of the entire countries income. At some point, everyone else is so poor that you have to go where the money is to collect taxes.

    Or you'll end up like brazil where poor people kidnap 1,000 wealthy people per year, killing some of them.

    When democracies collapse, countries like Monaco with tons of wealthy people who are not paying for national defense will become ripe fat plums to be plucked.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  29. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

    Though it's referred to as a dormant clause I'd disagree that the constitution doesn't say the states can't regulate interstate commerce. I believe the constitution and the discussion that lead to it were quite clear that they didn't want individual states interfering with commerce between the states. This was one of the "mistakes" of the articles of confederation that the second constitutional convention sought to fix as states had imposed tariffs on other states goods during the confederation creating an interstate trade war that caused no end of problems during the period.

    When the founders wrote the current constitution they went out of their way to give the federal government sole jurisdiction over interstate commerce to prevent these actions and even gave the power to the president to nationalize national guard units to prevent states from going to war against each other. Again, this was all documented very heavily in the discussions during the writing of the constitution which is why the courts ruled the way they did. States were never intended to have the ability to tariff other states.

  30. If they win, then we're getting a national sales t by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    If I take money from people all over the country and put things in the US mail to those people, you can totally make an argument that I should be paying my share of taxes, sure. I can't deny that. But I should be filing 50 tax forms in 50 states? Fuck that, I'd just stop trying to run an interstate business.

    If SCOTUS rules for the 50 state taxes, then I think that immediately creates an emergency where Congress needs to pre-empt all that, and boom: we'll have a national sales tax. (And probably some twisted way that it's paid back to the states, almost certainly with some abuses.) Can't say I want that tax, but it's probably better than the alternatives. Lesser of 51 evils, you might say. ;-)

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  31. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can buy ammo from outside the state, but must have it shipped to a California dealer. You have to pay the California dealer a handling and storage fee, and starting in 2019, the California dealer will perform a background check through the state to verify you are not ineligible to possess ammo. This is much the same as all firearms purchased out of state to come into California must be shipped to an FFL within California. I don't see how the DCC can be used to stop the ammo law.

  32. "Outdated Laws" by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

    the justices said they'll hear South Dakota's contention that the 1992 ruling is obsolete in the e-commerce era and should be overturned.

    Ah, good! Too many old laws cutting into profit margins these days!

    Next, after the precedent is set, they can go after that pesky First Amendment; after all, the Founding Fathers couldn't have possibly envisioned a world where we can communicate with anyone, anywhere instantaneously, so obviously the antiquated belief that people actually have a right to communicate freely needs to be eliminated.

    Be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.

    --
    An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  33. Blah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It seems the only really way to implement this in a way that wouldn't kill small businesses would be a national online sales tax that is remitted back to the states on some proportional basis.

  34. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the normal sized magazine ban is in federal court over taking without compensation. the people's republik could care less about constitutional restrictions on it's behavior. i doubt another court case will stop their constitutional rape.

  35. Re:Sales Taxes Regressive & Easy for wealth to by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    I think the greater concern, and a sure sign of economic trouble, is the collapse in the understanding of the difference between "countries" and "country's."

    When we can't tell the difference between plural and possessive, wider chaos isn't far behind.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  36. Re:Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    lol, same here but there is no income tax....so no form :O

    I doubt ANY individual pays any use tax here, I wouldn't even know HOW!
    Businesses are expected to file with the sales tax forms and the state assumes you buy something online, best not to leave a blank there....

    PS. there are about 360 tax codes to deal with JUST for WA state!

    Only ONE of the 5 large accounting systems I've used was even capable of more than one state...and that took me making a 3000 entry matrix of tax codes for just THREE states (one of which was all 0) Quickbooks can't even do ONE correctly(even tho they KNOW how to they don't!!)

  37. Re:Sales Taxes Regressive & Easy for wealth to by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    Voice typing leads to a lot of grammatical issues.

    And it's just reliable enough to stab you in the back.

    However, every single other forum I post on let's me fix posts. Slashdot doesn't.

    So I have no regrets about any errors of any kind posted on Slashdot.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  38. Not a Constitutional issue by eddeye · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You cannot be required to pay a sales tax on a purchase made across state lines by anyone but the feds, it would violate interstate commerce.

    The root problem is not a Constitutional one. The question is this: with an internet (or snail mail) retailer, where does the transaction take place? Purchaser lives CA, seller lives in NV, billing address is in CA, shipping address is in CA. If this is considered a NV sale, CA can't collect sales tax. If it's considered a CA sale, they can.

    By all rights, it should be a CA sale. The purchaser never crossed state lines, he had the goods sent to him in CA. It's no different than if he buys the item at the local Best Buy, who had it delivered to them from a distributor in NV. By all rights the sale should count as CA sale.

    However courts created this legal fiction that it counts as a NV sale. In the snail mail days, they didn't want to burden catalog retailers with figuring out sales tax rules all over the country and remitting payments to hundreds of municipalities. So they devised a test based on a business's contacts and physical presence in a state to determine if they had to follow that state's tax laws.

    Pop quiz: two internet retailers are located in TX. One has a warehouse in NJ, the other in VA. If you live in NJ, you have to pay sales tax on items bought from the first retailer but not the second - even if in both cases your item actually ships from TX. How does that make logical sense? Answer: it doesn't. It's just a convenient legal fiction for establishing jurisdiction.

    What made sense in the snail mail days may not make sense anymore. Electronic tracking of sales tax rates indexed by shipping address makes it much simpler to handle these days.

    The point is, designating the "location" of the sale is a court-created doctrine that is free of Constitutional issues. Once it's a NV sale, the commerce clause is in effect. However if the court decides to declare it a CA sale instead, then the commerce clause is irrelevant. It's all about how the court decides jurisdiction.

    Now changing the test for jurisdiction isn't easy. I don't expect the court to go that way. I'm just pointing out that the issue does not inherently raise Constitutional implications. Yes IAAL.

    --
    Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
    1. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by superdave80 · · Score: 1

      Electronic tracking of sales tax rates indexed by shipping address makes it much simpler to handle these days.

      There is one other sticky problem that needs to be sorted out: What items are to be taxed? In California, most food isn't taxed. But some foods are (i.e., going to a restaurant). So a merchant must not only know the particular sales tax rate (which isn't too difficult these days), AND whether or not their particular item is taxed in that jurisdiction.

    2. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 2

      That isn't the only problem, though. What about collecting / remitting taxes? Is a small business supposed to file taxes in 50 different states (well, 50 minus the ones that don't have a sales tax)? What about states where the tax varies by county and city? Its something a company like Amazon could handle, but smaller mom and pop shops likely couldn't.

      There are likely other 'problems' / issues to be determined besides these. It makes things messy, for sure.

      --
      William George
    3. Re: Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To make things worse, there are often local tax districts within cities, or even crossing city lines. For example, on stadiums, cultural facilities, drainage and utilities, etc.

      If I'm a small businessman, I ain't got no time for that shit. Automate it or go away. Or just get rid of sales tax and go VAT

    4. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Exactly. For example, California has a minimum $800/year sales tax remittance for all businesses. If your sales taxes collected throughout the year add up to less than $800 - you still have to pay $800. Even if you had one sale in the State, for $0.01 in tax - you have to pay $800, minimum. If you're not doing at least $10,000 worth of sales into California, you would be money ahead to ban ALL sales into the State of California.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    5. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      It's both a CA sale and an NV sale, but if there were any justice then there wouldn't be any tax collected by either state. The states would produce revenues from other fee sources, like actually charging the companies which run the delivery trucks over the roads for their share of road maintenance, and so on. Then those costs would show up in the shipping cost, and ultimately be paid for by the people who buy the products without having to pay sales taxes, which are inherently regressive. People would then be induced to buy products with lower actual shipping costs... which will hopefully be more likely to come from within the state.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by WindBourne · · Score: 2

      this is why I would like to see the feds implement a 10% tax on all sales that move across state/federal borders. Then have the shipping company collect the 10% of the sale and return 9% of it to the feds, keeping 1% for themselves. From the 9%, let the feds keep 2% and then pass 7% down to the state where the good was shipped to. Then have the state figures out how to deal with the 7%. If a state does not want that sales tax, then the feds keep the full 9%.

      THis really is the fair way to do this, and it is LONG overdue.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was no "fiction" created by the courts. All the courts said was that a company had to have a substantial nexus in that state in order for sales tax to apply. States tried to claim the Amazon Associates program created such a nexus but Amazon shot that down by simply terminating the program in states that went after them. The real issue is states wanted to make Amazon et al their tax collectors versus relying on people to honestly report use tax.

      As for your scenario, yes there is a logic to it. The company with the warehouse in NJ has a nexus in NJ and thus is required to collect sales tax because it is intra-state commerce. The other company does not and thus is inter-state commerce. It comes down to a simple question: Does the company have a tangible presence in the state that helps it do business there?

      And there is a logic to it because the sale is taking place outside the state. It would be no different than if I crossed over into Oregon, Delaware, or any other state the doesn't have a sales tax. I would be required to pay use tax on those purchases but those are harder to track and prove especially if I lose the receipt.

      And it still makes sense because not every company is the size of Dell, Amazon, Apple, etc. and can easily afford to track such things. The burden on smaller businesses might still be too great. Especially if they have to file in all 50 states.

    8. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by sunking2 · · Score: 1

      Only tricky if you are a simpleton. This has been a solved problem for decades. If you want to sell your wares to more than the people who walk through your door then you have to invest a bit of your expected money for the proper software that will handle such things.

    9. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I call into Domino's pizza, and order a pizza pie, where would you say the transaction is taking place?

      The cash register is at dominos, the employee is at dominos, the pizza is at dominos.

      Obviously the transaction is "taking place" at dominos, and it's silly to say otherwise.

    10. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong. There is no minimum sales tax remittance in California. There is however a $800 minimum income tax paid to the Franchise Tax Board for corporations and LLCs taxed as corporations.

    11. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Migraineman · · Score: 1

      There is a Constitutional component. $State-A cannot inflict tax-collection responsibilities on a business outside of its borders. Your NJ/VA/TX scenarion makes sense because the first business has a footprint in NJ, and therefore the State has authority to impose a tax burden on it. However, NJ cannot mandate that the business in VA do squat regardless of where an item is ultimately shipped to. (NJ *can* impose a "use" tax on the recipient, as an equivalent to a "sales" tax, and many States do ... but often compliance is not rigidly enforced, and I would be surprised if most folks even knew a use-tax existed or that they had a legal obligation to report and pay it.)

    12. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "By all rights, it should be a CA sale. The purchaser never crossed state lines, he had the goods sent to him in CA. It's no different than if he buys the item at the local Best Buy, who had it delivered to them from a distributor in NV. By all rights the sale should count as CA sale."

      Why? NV provides fire protection, police protection, social services, water, sewer, etc etc to the seller. CA does not, unlike the case with BestBuy in CA. NV certainly has some claim on taxing the sale. On the other hand, NV already gets business tax, property tax, income tax, etc from the seller, but CA does not.

      The answer is not obvious if you consider all the equities.

    13. Re: Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Extending the Domino's delivery example, let's say the call center is in the Netherlands, the order is placed into the system which runs on a server in Michigan, and the credit cards are processed in Montana. Now, where did the sale take place?

      For the Besr Buy example, consider the sale taking two parts: the goods, and the delivery service: I buy the goods where they are handed off to the delivery company, and I hire the delivery company to take them to my home. What then makes the actual point-of-sale to be my home? The vendor's location could very rationally determine the tax jurisdiction.

    14. Re:Not a Constitutional issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then have the shipping company collect the 10% of the sale

      Setting aside the arbitrariness of the percentages, how is the shipping company supposed to know how much the object cost?

  39. Taxation is the Rich stealing from the poor by ghoul · · Score: 0

    What do taxes fund? 80% of it goes to Law and Order, Courts, Military, Business councils, regulatory bodies all of which make capitalism possible and make it possible for capitalists to earn a return on their capital. Very little benefit of taxes goes to the poor though they still end up paying 40% of the total tax burden.
    So the rich pay 60% of the taxes and get 80% of the benefits and the poor pay 40% of the taxes and get 20% of the benefits.

    Most "Libertarians" are sucking at the govt teat much more than any welfare mom.

    --
    **Life is too short to be serious**
    1. Re:Taxation is the Rich stealing from the poor by sexconker · · Score: 1

      That's not how math works.

    2. Re:Taxation is the Rich stealing from the poor by ghoul · · Score: 1

      And you would know how?

      --
      **Life is too short to be serious**
  40. Re:If they win, then we're getting a national sale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    how about just end regressive sales taxes

  41. It all comes down to one thing! by oldgraybeard · · Score: 1

    Will every Mom and Pop online store have to be aware of and process Sales taxes for each and every one of the 9000+ individual taxing districts in the us each Qtr.

    Amazon is all for this!!!, because they want to close down and force these businesses in to Amazon Stores. Where Amazon skims the top 8-15% off every invoice total they process !. For their own profit.

    The margins are not big, Amazon gets theirs either way. This will happen! And it will destroy small online sales.

    But that is Amazons goal, one store, one vendor, one acquirer of wealth.

    Just my 2 cents ;)

  42. Too late . . . by sgt_doom · · Score: 1

    . . . . Amazon already has market share . . .

  43. Re:Sales Taxes Regressive & Easy for wealth to by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    For bonus points, which errors in that post were intentional and which were real errors?

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  44. Create an internet sales tax clearinghouse by riverat1 · · Score: 1

    The jurisdictions with sales taxes should get together and create an internet sales tax clearinghouse. Set it up so the seller can send the necessary information to the clearinghouse at the time of sale and it returns the amount of sales tax delivered based on the address of delivery and the kind of item being bought. The seller adds it to the bill and sends the tax payments it receives to the clearinghouse that then distributes it to the proper jurisdictions. All it would require is a big database of the different taxes which would be the responsibility of the taxing jurisdiction to keep updated. Then a relatively quick and simple calculation would compute the tax owed. The seller could keep track of what it owes and send a payment to the clearinghouse once a month or so. I could even see brick and mortar stores using the system.

    With more and more purchases being made online you shouldn't be able to avoid the taxes you owe just because you make purchases that way. If nothing else it's unfair to the people who are paying sales or use taxes. I know a lot of you think of taxes as thievery but I look at it as the dues you pay for living in a civilized society.

    1. Re:Create an internet sales tax clearinghouse by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The jurisdictions with sales taxes should get together and create an internet sales tax clearinghouse. Set it up so the seller can send the necessary information to the clearinghouse at the time of sale and it returns the amount of sales tax delivered based on the address of delivery and the kind of item being bought.

      It is a great idea but there is nothing in it for The States. If they had to make a true accounting of the costs of maintaining such an operation, it would undermine placing this burden on others.

    2. Re:Create an internet sales tax clearinghouse by riverat1 · · Score: 1

      It might cost something to get it set up but once they get it going how much would it cost? I think maybe 5% of what they collect. They could take that out of what they collect as overhead and they still come out ahead.

    3. Re:Create an internet sales tax clearinghouse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With more and more purchases being made online you shouldn't be able to avoid the taxes you owe just because you make purchases that way. If nothing else it's unfair to the people who are paying sales or use taxes. I know a lot of you think of taxes as thievery but I look at it as the dues you pay for living in a civilized society.

      That's propaganda. It says nothing about whether a tax is genuinely in the interests of society, or consistent with the laws of that society.

      In the USA, it is far from clear that the current tax systems are consistent with the Bill of Rights.

      Perhaps you slept through your civics classes? In the USA, the Bill of Rights was written to be open-ended by James Madison, in order to address the criticism that government in the new system (including state government - his original text was clearly intended to limit the power of state as well as federal) had too much power and that any finite Bill of Rights would inevitably miss many important rights. The 9th and 10th Amendments allow the people to assert rights as needed, with those rights superseding the authority of government at all levels.

      In short, if a lot of people aren't paying a tax, that creates a presumption that the tax is illegal, in violation of the highest law in the land. That's what all the lawyers in the entire country swear to recognize when they take their oaths. So logically what we should be doing is recognizing this - and giving the money back that was wrongly paid by a few in the mistaken impression that government was acting within it's legitimate authority.

      Legal issues concerning the primacy of the Bill of Rights aside, sales taxes aren't really in the long term interests of society: these are regressive taxes, and you can't correct for that. People have tried (look up the "Fair Tax" initiative for a typical example) but they always miss major considerations that are extremely important and torpedo the oh-so-clever-but-not-practical scheme they've come up with (do the research, or just think about it a bit - you'll find discussion on this forum).

      The major reason we still have sales taxes is the influence of the rich, who LOVE regressive taxes (and tend not to care about many ways in which these taxes do harm these taxes do). These taxes lead to black markets, excessive law and bureaucracy, concentration of wealth, unethical practice of law, and many other bad things. Tax reform in the USA is long overdue and badly needed, but the current proposal isn't helping fix the problems.

  45. Robbing Peter to pay Paul by Dutchmaan · · Score: 1

    Well now that all those business got a nice big tax cut, the state and local governments are turning to consumers to pay for the shortfall in tax income. So we get to look forward to cuts in federal programs AND increased prices through taxation on the state and local levels... Thank goodness for those few extra pennies in my paycheck! WHEW!

  46. Uncompensated Work by narcoossee · · Score: 1

    By what right does a state have to force the uncompensated labor and expense of collecting and remitting sales taxes on an entity not within the borders of that state?

  47. Destination Based Sourcing & Streamlined Sales by dewright_ca · · Score: 1

    Quite a few years back a group of states got together to battle the e-commerce behemoth. They passed laws that allow for the taxing of something based on where it is delivered/accepted. So if you went to a grocery-store, this is where you paid the tax for that location; but if you bought something from Amazon to be shipped to your house, then they were responsible for charging you the tax for the address where it is shipped.

    The kicker now, many states assigned a threshold to how much revenue you had based on sales to a given state before you would get charged. So smaller home/hobby businesses like ETSY didn't trip that.

    This is changing, and with this suit coming back into place; the potential for a state(like here in WA) to require all sales tax to be charged/collected is a reality. //Sales Tax Program Employee

    --
    He who is always at the bottom of the distribution list, but needs the information first!
  48. Let's simplify this by reboot246 · · Score: 1

    Ideally, you would pay sales tax to the state where the retailer (or e-tailer) is located. I consider it to be exactly like buying an item when you're on vacation. You pay tax on the item in the store where you bought it. You carry it home in your own car instead of shipping it by UPS.

    My own home state is so greedy that they expect you to pay sales taxes even on items you bought on vacation! Screw that! They didn't invest anything in the sale.

    States with low or no sales taxes would have an advantage over states with high sales taxes, but that's the way competition is supposed to work. Let them compete to lure internet businesses to their state. 4% of something is way more than 100% of nothing.

    I think sales taxes are a very regressive way of funding government. The low to middle income families pay a disproportionate part of their income in sales taxes.

  49. Re:If they win, then we're getting a national sale by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

    How about a simple 'head' tax? Count the heads, each head pays the same amount. People who can't pay go into debt.

  50. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    You could try googling the difference between principle and principal.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  51. Re:If they win, then we're getting a national sale by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    People who can't pay go into debt, or can opt to have their head(s) cut off.

    FTFY

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  52. Double Taxation by Shompol · · Score: 1

    Why do we even have a purchase tax? I already pay my income taxes, why do I need to pay a second tax off already taxed money? Wouldn't it be easier to simply abolish the purchase tax?

  53. Re:for some it feels like this has already happene by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In other words, because I'm not some unemployed loser like you. Got it.

  54. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To purchase ammo in state you have to go through a licensed dealer, the same as importing from out of state. There is no difference between the two. Domestic commerce is not treated differently.

  55. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by uncqual · · Score: 1

    Except, it appears that if you have one 22LR round and live in Nevada, you can't put that in your UHaul when you move to California.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  56. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by uncqual · · Score: 1

    True. Once rape is ignored, rapists will become more bold.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  57. i sell online and am fine with this except... by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

    In states where sales tax is collected, they all must have the exact same rates and rules on every level.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
  58. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    People fall into two groups on the 10th Amendment:
    Those who think it doesn't mean anything,
    and those who can't agree what they think it means.

  59. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Aighearach · · Score: 1

    You can. It "appears" wrong to you because your hatred of hippies prevents you from understanding any law or rule that you believe hippies might have supported.

  60. Well that is one way. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To end it all.

  61. Re:Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Additionally they have a box on the form where instead of counting receipts and calculating the use tax rate, you can pay an additional rate on your income (subject to some restrictions).

  62. Where else are we going to get the money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for all those state and local bureaucrats' pensions?

  63. Tax Internet Commerce = send jobs offshore by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Large Internet fulfillment centers will just move their location of Taxable presence offshore to avoid the tax LIKE APPLE and GOOGLE Did and do.

  64. POSTAL / SHIPPING COMPANY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tax shipping. Nobody can get around shipping a physical item. Shipping companies have to deal with tons of logistics which make local tax collection look like a joke. It would be a small price for them to update their computer systems in the larger picture. After that point it would cost them NOTHING to collect and deliver the taxes.

    ACTUALLY, they would make money because they wouldn't pay the tax instantly per transaction, they'd sit on that cash for at least 1 quarter before paying each state. That means just like many businesses today which collect sales tax within their state, that money will be earning interest while it waits until tax day. Big corporations make plenty of money on sales tax between paying-- (some states even give the biz a subsidy from the sales tax to cover the expense of collecting sales tax... which should be taken away because we all have computers and calculators today. Plus sales taxes would go down in those states which have such an OLD policy.)

  65. Re:Here in PA you are supposed to report uncollect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are supposed to report uncollected sales tax from out of state purchases on your PA income tax form. It has a line item, but of course almost no one does that. The tax is really on your purchase and not the sellers sale (yea I know it's called a SALES tax), it's just a convenience for the state since individuals will almost never bother to report it themselves.

    If people aren't complying, that creates a presumption that a 9th or 10th Amendment right is in play - which should be sufficient to stop the government action. Unfortunately, government in the USA has gotten in the habit of ignoring the Bill of Rights, despite the fact that it is the highest law in the land and compliance is required of government at all levels.

    Further, excessive bureaucracy violates fundamental rights: you don't live in a free country if you are not free, and excessive bureaucracy is certainly not consistent with freedom. Further, legal professionals often are hired to serve as intermediaries between the public and bureaucracies, and as such are in a position of ethical conflict of interest with respect to laws that avoidably increase bureaucracy. Under the 9th and 10th Amendments, even the appearance of conflict of interest on the part of legal professionals must be avoided, making laws involving avoidable bureaucracy illegal - and this goes far beyond mere appearance.

    Who can possibly keep track of all their purchases, and how much tax they need to pay, and which items are exempt? How is trying to require this in the interests of a society that claims to be free?

    Forcing individuals to keep track of their purchases and report them is an illegal exercise of government authority. It's not just a Bill of Rights violation, it's a violation of criminal law: infringement of fundamental rights "under the colour of law" has been a criminal offence for a long time under US federal law. The government officials that brought this case should be in jail for criminal conduct.

    It's clearly time stop talking about the slippery slope: it is clear that government at all levels in the USA is routinely attempting to violate the Bill of Rights - and often succeeding - nothing is happening to correct matters - unethical practice of law has become the norm. We're not on a slippery slope, we've fallen off the cliff. Where will this end? How can any society survive when it's government routinely breaks the law?

    It is highly unlikely that the Supreme Court will do anything positive about this situation, given that they're allowed things to proceed this far in violation of the law. Unfortunately, deeply entrenched corruption has been the norm for a long time in the USA: both parties are complicit. When you have corrupt politicians selecting judges, you are not going to get good judges. You are probably not even going to get judges that are free to act: who knows what kind of illegal constraints are placed upon people selected for higher office? The particular issue of sales tax is simply one small part of a much bigger mess. Nobody in a high judicial office is going to rock the boat on legal ethics issues: they're acting as if they were making judgements with their eyes shut tight, and humming really loud so they don't have to pay attention to what's actually going on. It's pathetic (and really makes me wonder about how that behaviour is allowed to happen - blackmail? or simply a lack of integrity?).

    Aside from the legal issues, sales taxes are unavoidably regressive and thus not in the long term interest of society: we should get rid of them entirely and reform the income tax system to be truly progressive and remove the thousands of pages of law that are used to hide seemingly endless loopholes. But the rich like regressive taxes and don't want all those loopholes closed, which is a big part of the reason why this whole sales tax thing is still being pushed.

  66. Re:If they win, then we're getting a national sale by Cajun+Hell · · Score: 1

    how about just end regressive sales taxes

    If the various taxing governments thought this was a good idea, then this story wouldn't be happening. The premise is that we are going to have a sales tax, whether some people dislike its regressiveness or not. They want the money.

    --
    "Believe me!" -- Donald Trump
  67. Re:Court invoked so-called dormant commerce clause by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...talk about anti-climactic. Sheesh.