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Will Facial Recognition in China Lead To Total Surveillance? (washingtonpost.com)

schwit1 shares a new Washington Post article about China's police and security state -- including the facial recognition cameras allow access to apartment buildings. "If I am carrying shopping bags in both hands, I just have to look ahead and the door swings open," one 40-year-old woman tells the Post. "And my 5-year-old daughter can just look up at the camera and get in. It's good for kids because they often lose their keys." But for the police, the cameras that replaced the residents' old entry cards serve quite a different purpose. Now they can see who's coming and going, and by combining artificial intelligence with a huge national bank of photos, the system in this pilot project should enable police to identify what one police report, shared with The Washington Post, called the "bad guys" who once might have slipped by... Banks, airports, hotels and even public toilets are all trying to verify people's identities by analyzing their faces. But the police and security state have been the most enthusiastic about embracing this new technology.

The pilot in Chongqing forms one tiny part of an ambitious plan, known as "Xue Liang," which can be translated as "Sharp Eyes." The intent is to connect the security cameras that already scan roads, shopping malls and transport hubs with private cameras on compounds and buildings, and integrate them into one nationwide surveillance and data-sharing platform... At the back end, these efforts merge with a vast database of information on every citizen, a "Police Cloud" that aims to scoop up such data as criminal and medical records, travel bookings, online purchase and even social media comments -- and link it to everyone's identity card and face.

55 of 122 comments (clear)

  1. "Lead To" by SuperKendall · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You people apparently have not been paying any attention to what China has been doing for decades now. Automated facial scanning is but one tiny piece in a massive machine that has existed for quite a long time now.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re: "Lead To" by dougdonovan · · Score: 1

      well. everything is made in china so...get a clue.

    2. Re:"Lead To" by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

      You people apparently have not been paying any attention to what China has been doing for decades now. Automated facial scanning is but one tiny piece in a massive machine that has existed for quite a long time now.

      Good point. Everything is novel to the naive.

      "Oh no, maybe it will cause them to become a communist dictatorship!"

    3. Re:"Lead To" by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Considering FaceBook's facial recognition, geotag determinations, friends association and sharing everything with US Government entities - anyone who thinks the US is not already a surveillance state is woefully and purposefully ignorant.
      It also likely that China has this information as well via hacking into substandard US security systems with "non-strong" encryption edicts. So, yes, China is already a surveillance state on the US, why not their own people?

    4. Re:"Lead To" by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Facebook has well over a billion users - if you’re going to claim “Facebook” = “surveillance state”, you’re going to need to rope in a few more western nations.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    5. Re:"Lead To" by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      Decades ? China has a history of maintaining a well organized and efficient state for centuries.

    6. Re:"Lead To" by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't say it was until communism took hold that they really got into monitoring the populace to the level they are now.

      To me it has nothing to do with them being well-organized and efficient (which as you say they were for a long time).

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    7. Re:"Lead To" by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Not just China, the UK does it too. The UK tries to hide it, painting the cameras grey and using indirect lighting. In China they paint the cameras yellow and use a flash bulb (!) to photograph the drivers' faces on roads.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:"Lead To" by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      Oops, dunno how that happened?

      Yes, that's mine.

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  2. Yay self-driving cars! by jabberw0k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once all automobiles are mandated to be robot-driven, so we can restrict your travel entirely to where you can walk, the imprisonment will be complete.

    1. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I see that, and you see that, and we both get lumped in with the tinfoil-hat crowd, told we're dangerously paranoid, told "that'll never happen" by the shills and the deniers, told "SDCs will save lives" (i.e. trading security and 'safety' for freedom, yet again), told "humans aren't capable of driving a car so we need machines to do it for us" (which is a flat-out lie), and so on. Meanwhile the technology is half-baked at best, the security of the software running them will be half-assed and full of holes, and as you allude to, SDCs will not only be capble of being tracked in realtime via an always-on radio link, but will be capable of being taken control of remotely at any time, with no manual override possible by the occupant. This will be even more true for Level 5 SDCs, which won't have any controls for a human driver (and fuck that, I *would* rather walk than step into one of those four-wheeled nightmare machines) so you'll literally have ZERO control over the machine, it'll do whatever it wants to do (or whatever who is actually in control wants it to do) and you'll have ZERO say over any of it. Needless to say (at least for anyone who can actually think these things through) any decent hacker will be able to hack these vehicles and take control just as if they were the police or the government; do I really need to ennumerate all the things criminal hackers could do to you with this ability?

      Know what really disturbs me the most? How some people envision being able to put their kids in some Level 5 SDC (no controls at all) by themselves and send them off to Grandma's house or wherever. *SHUDDER* So far as I'm concerned you may as well just put a gun to their little heads and pull the trigger, it'd be a faster and less painful way to go.

      I'd rather walk. Or perhaps I'll go back to riding a motorcycle full-time, like I used to when I was in my 20's. No way in hell I'll ever have a SDC or even ride in one. Me driving or human driver or nothing, thanks anyway.

    2. Re: Yay self-driving cars! by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Antennas can be cut and terminated with a 50-ohm dummy load, effectively disabling them, and I'm sure just like a cellphone if you have no SIM card or refuse to set up an account for them, they're effectively disabled anyway. Considering that I have an older phone that they made a SIM card for that doesn't connect to any netowrk (but allows the phone to boot up) I'm sure the cellular connetion in a vehicle could be handled the same way: vehicle systems function but no wireless connectivity to anything. Or just cut and terminate the antenna(s) as per above. Or just never own a vehicle that has any of that crap in it in the first place (my go-to option).

    3. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      Almost. Once we have self driving cars using underground tunnels they can fence in each neighbourhood with concrete walls and limit undesirables to a single block of houses. Look how far Terry Fox got, do you want to risk those on the "No Drive" list getting into YOUR neighbourhood?

    4. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

      It's probably only 20 years until non-SDC are illegal. "For safety of course". And motorcycles will also be illegal.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    5. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by mlookaba · · Score: 1

      "fuck that, I *would* rather walk than step into one of those four-wheeled nightmare machines) so you'll literally have ZERO control over the machine"

      Have you ever ridden a bus or flown? What sort of control did you have there?

    6. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Old, tired-out arguments don't interest me. Not the same thing, not relevant.

    7. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Busses and planes are operated by people who generally don't want to die in an accident. An autonomous car with maliciously altered software doesn't have to harm the perpetrator. THAT's the difference. A bus, train, or plane operator is essentially a hostage to proper operation of the vehicle, because their life is at stake if they fail too badly.

    8. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by gnick · · Score: 1

      Know what really disturbs me the most? How some people envision being able to put their kids in some Level 5 SDC (no controls at all) by themselves and send them off to Grandma's house or wherever. *SHUDDER*

      Can you imagine putting 20 or 30 of them all inside a bus a just sending it off to school? All it takes is one bug in that bus driver's software... Think of the children!

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    9. Re:Yay self-driving cars! by Agripa · · Score: 1

      I see that, and you see that, and we both get lumped in with the tinfoil-hat crowd, told we're dangerously paranoid, told "that'll never happen" by the shills and the deniers, told "SDCs will save lives" (i.e. trading security and 'safety' for freedom, yet again), told "humans aren't capable of driving a car so we need machines to do it for us" (which is a flat-out lie), and so on.

      The Harrison Narcotics Act will never be used to ban drugs. The income tax will never be greater than 10%.

  3. The short answer by Kargan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yes.

    --
    Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
  4. This is China we are talking about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    They already restricted freedoms for everybody living legally in the country. This is just a reminder to those of us in currently freer countries that you need to GTFO now, because while there may be cracks you can slip through now, the next generation of cracks you might not be smart enough to find and scurry through.

    The UK, then US and then EU will be next in following these Ambitious plans. I am sure Russia would love to as well, but I just don't seen them having/putting the finances necessary in place to actually reach the total surveillance state that China is capable of, thanks to its large influx of first world money. But given how many companies China now owns/is a majority investor in other countries, people elsewhere should be concerned as well. The Manchurian Candidate is about to win all.

  5. Why just China? by aglider · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Worldwide!

    --
    Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
    1. Re:Why just China? by Halo1 · · Score: 1, Troll

      At least already in the US.

      --
      Donate free food here
  6. Islamic women by Big+Bipper · · Score: 5, Funny

    Maybe the Islamic Women who wear Burkas ( full face covering ) are actually ahead of the times. Maybe we'll all be wearing them in the future to preserve our privacy.

    --
    You live and learn, or you don't learn much.
    1. Re:Islamic women by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Covering your face doesn't matter much when they have tools like gait and Kinematics recognition at their disposal.

    2. Re:Islamic women by Bradmont · · Score: 4, Informative

      As of last August, Facebook could recognise you with 83% accuracy when your face was not visible in photos. Covering your face won't matter. https://www.privateinternetacc...

    3. Re:Islamic women by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2

      Covering your face doesn't matter much when they have tools like gait and Kinematics recognition at their disposal.

      I heard that in the UK they shut down the Ministry of Silly Walks last year and classified all of its old research. Now we know why.

    4. Re: Islamic women by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      What makes you think that service is not already available to select customers?

  7. 3000 years of recorded Chinese history by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    In all that time, how many revolutions have there been in China? Not much of a student of history but I know it's happened more than once.
    What I'm wondering is this: When you have over a billion people in your country, and you treat them the way that the Communist Chinise government treats them, how much more of this bullshit will they stand for before there's another revolution? Or, at least, before the Communist government sees that the only way for them to stay in power and prevent a long, drawn-out, bloody revolution, is to change their ways, respect their citizens more?

    1. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by FrankSchwab · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The whole point of a book like "1984" is to explore what happens to society when Government has this level of surveillance and control. When you can't curse the "great leader" in your home without someone or something hearing you and reporting you; when you can't discuss government with your neighbors without your words being reported; when you can't gather with like-minded people to discuss ways to change the government (either within the rules, or outside them) without being arrested as a danger; when the government can identify every person in a demonstration, the age-old remedy of revolution becomes unimaginable, and society freezes into rigid authoritarianism with no viable hope to break free.

      And if you believe that China is the only government teetering on the edge of this chasm, you haven't been paying attention.

      --
      And the worms ate into his brain.
    2. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      It doesn't become "unimagineable", it just becomes more bloody and violent. There will always be revolutionaries, and they'll always find a way. China is a big country, and out in the wilds where there's no cameras or microphones and everybody knows everybody, whole armies can be quietly formed, checking the loyalty of their own people, and dealing with any spies that are detected. Look at various groups in the middle east; how do you imagine they got started? The old saying about how the tighter you grip sand in your fist, the more grains slip through your fingers has been and always be very true.

    3. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Oh and by the way if you're one of those cowardly types who go around saying "there's nothing we can do so we should just do as we're told" then you and I have nothing more to say to each other.

    4. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by Ken+McE · · Score: 1

      When you have over a billion people in your country, and you treat them the way that the Communist Chinise government treats them, how much more of this bullshit will they stand for before there's another revolution?

      By Chinese standards, they are being treated very well and have no need for revolution. The economy is booming, employment is high, wealth is diffusing widely throughout the country, and China's prominence as a world player is improving every day.

      I don't know about life expectancy and childhood mortality, but wouldn't be surprised if they are also improving daily.

      Or, at least, before the Communist government sees that the only way for them to stay in power and prevent a long, drawn-out, bloody revolution, is to change their ways, respect their citizens more?

      I don't know that they have ever had a government that respected their citizens more than the present one. Why would they expect something they have never had, never been offered, and don't seem to need?

    5. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by blind+biker · · Score: 1

      The whole point of a book like "1984" is to explore what happens to society when Government has this level of surveillance and control. When you can't curse the "great leader" in your home without someone or something hearing you and reporting you; when you can't discuss government with your neighbors without your words being reported; when you can't gather with like-minded people to discuss ways to change the government (either within the rules, or outside them) without being arrested as a danger; when the government can identify every person in a demonstration, the age-old remedy of revolution becomes unimaginable, and society freezes into rigid authoritarianism with no viable hope to break free.

      North Korea shows decisively that you don't even need high-tech to freeze society into this state - just good-old snitching, torture and massive amounts of fear will do the trick.

      --
      "The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
    6. Re:3000 years of recorded Chinese history by John.Banister · · Score: 1

      I was told in a Chinese history class that the big revolutions happen about every 200 years, like clockwork. Since the last one was in the 1950s, look for the next one in the 2150s.

  8. Re:Donald Trump - Traitor by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2

    The lizard people are at the bottom of it all, I'm convinced of it. Scaly bastards.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  9. Whenever the peasants by pjv936 · · Score: 1

    gets tired of the BS China changes.

  10. False Positives by InterGuru · · Score: 1

    Many total surveillance schemes have failed because even a low false positive rate can overwhelm the system. How will this program handle false positives?

    1. Re:False Positives by davecb · · Score: 1

      Probably by frustrating the police like crazy on one hand (when looking for a particular person) but on the other hand making it easy for them to lay false charges (when they have a person they want to blame already).

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    2. Re:False Positives by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      It's in China. They'll handle false positives by executing all the matching faces. After all, 100 innocents dying to get rid of one counter-revolutionary is a cheap price to pay. They have plenty of people.

      Unless it's a high muckity muck or their kid. Then they are obviously innocent (unless a higher muckity muck decides against it) and are free to go. Of course the other matches will get shot.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    3. Re:False Positives by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      They will use the same solution as the NSA. Spy on everyone all the time, feed it into computers set to look for common patterns, and hope it works. They had ALL the bits of the 9/11 attacks and didn't know it until after the fact.

    4. Re:False Positives by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Or they knew it, and didn't care. 9/11 was a boon for big government, the surveillance state, and militarism in general. There were plenty of people who had an interest in allowing it to happen.

    5. Re:False Positives by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      False positives happened in the past due to systems that needed a face presented in a direct face on way with a good standard of lighting from a set of CCTV images.
      That saved on needing to hire many new skilled programmers, have advanced new CCTV network that could work in low light and allowed for a low cost system that could use a lot of consumer CPU's.

      Images of people been interviewed, criminals taken at police stations, jail, prison in the past did not get much mathematical consideration as the image to be matched with.
      With more understanding of what a human face looks like in 3d, side on, from above, below, in different light the number of false positives can be reduced.
      The ability to keep tacking a person via gait from camera to camera until a better image is captured also stops reduces false positives.
      Police stations, jails, prisons now capture suspects images from all sides, their gait, in different light when walking to an interview, been interviewed, in jail, been released, changes when with their lawyer/legal team.
      That builds up an almost 3d data set, from ears, side of face, top of face, under face, mouth, eyes, body art, scars, changes to facial hair/hair style. All in different lighting with much better quality CCTV and other more advanced hidden camera systems no always on show.
      So a quality database of a persons measurements of face, gait, walk, ear, nose, chin, neck, shoulders, legs, hip now exists for anyone who had to be with police for any reason. Even getting a drivers licence, the face image might be one of many images taken on that day.... at that another nations DMV like location.
      Why just take one image when the person is in line, entering data, been questioned, been photographed once...
      Much better math is then done on all that so other CCTV systems can understand how to match all that police data with new data captured in real time.
      The new CCTV networks are now not just a camera with one image to match later. Its real time at many frames per second sorting every measurement of chin, eyes, nose, shoulders, side of face, top of face, under face as a person moves from CCTV to CCTV camera. That math is then sorted and compared to the data sets of existing people of interest.
      The days of 2d like flat images needed have been replaced to total 3d like face, head, gait collection over a network of cameras with much better math and CPU like support.
      The software and hardware has now been tested to the needs of the CCTV math. No more sets of consumer CPU's been sold as a CCTV security system.
      All that police, jail, DMV like data is the worked on. Driving a car, truck, van? In a train, aircraft, boat? Walking around a city? Driving out of a city? As a driver, passenger all that is now CCTV ready. Match that with a cell phone, electronic toll collection and gait. Day, night, all weather.
      False positives are no longer a problem. In the USA its just how not to tell a persons lawyer the discovery part of how that person got tracked all over the USA.
      In Communist nations the only problem was upgrading all the CCTV hardware nation wide to one new system and standard.
      Domain Awareness System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... solved that false positives problem generations ago.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  11. Xue Liang = Sharp Eyes by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    I'm not convinced this is the case. Xue != Sharp and Liang != Eye.

    It's more likely it's this XueLiang meaning 'bright as snow'

    https://translate.google.com/?...

    Then again that can mean 'sharp (of eye)' or discerning.

    https://www.linguee.com/chines...

    Interestingly the associations with snow and discerning sight in Mandarin are the opposite to the way they are in English.

    Compare for example 'Snowblind' by Black Sabbath (or the System of a Down cover).

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  12. If it's good enough for USA, why is this "news"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Seriously, it's being rolled out all over the USA and idiots are cheering, because terrorists!

    I can't count the number of times I've seen articles about airports with facial recognition (usually with an accuracy rate that means the likelihood of a terrorist slipping through or grandma being harassed and arrested are shockingly high), or crime cameras being abused by police (to track an ex-girlfriend or other stalker-type behavior), linking stop-light cameras with the FBI databases, etc.

    FYI: 1984 seems to be the only book people bring up with stuff like this... you need to read Fahrenheit 451 too, it's just as relevant and we're closer to completion of that storyline (wall sized TVs, cameras all over your house, TV shows about cops chasing criminals where the citizens are reporting on their neighbors (Cops, America's Most Wanted, etc.), etc. Read them, don't just talk about the wikipedia summaries.

  13. Orwell had it backwards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    In America you only get in trouble if surveillance catches you PRAISING the great leader. Then you are literally a white supremacist and need to be black listed.

  14. Big difference by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    Considering FaceBook's facial recognition, geotag determinations, friends association and sharing everything with US Government entities - anyone who thinks the US is not already a surveillance state

    I'm not sure I'd disagree with calling the U.S. a surveillance state...

    However a lot of what you just listed is optional. People don't have to share anything on Facebook. People do not have to take photos with geotagging enabled - they just do. And the U.S. along with various companies happily ingest that freely given information.

    But China takes things to a whole different level. Imagine mandatory geotagging of photos taken. Imagine microphones and cameras in every hotel room, and not just the ones installed by pervs. Imagine a HUGE number of people out and about on the streets and in buildings that are there to monitor people. And on top of that cameras everywhere, all controlled and state accessible, unlike the mishj-mash of private cameras the U.S. has sporadically placed through cities.

    So it's fine to call the U.S. a "surveillance state" but only if you have some qualifier or separate term to indicate the large difference that exists between western states collecting intelligence, and China... I think I would term what the U.S. and U.K. do as "passive" and the Chinese state as "active" as they are way more likely to take action based on what is being surveilled (in terms of adding additional monitoring or arrests).

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  15. Re:Donald Trump - Traitor by nnet · · Score: 1

    Cra-a-a-a-b People...

  16. Scramble Suits from A Scanner Darkly = the answer by phik · · Score: 1

    I'm impressed Philip K Dick knew the question then.

  17. Toilets ID people by feces by fox171171 · · Score: 1

    Banks, airports, hotels and even public toilets are all trying to verify people's identities by analyzing their faces.

    For a second there I thought it said feces (faeces).

  18. Password by UrbanMonk · · Score: 1

    LUCIUS

  19. Re:That's not me! by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    Amazon has the perfect thing.

    And just so nobody accuses me of partisanship in suggesting who should be framed, here’s one of Hillary.

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  20. Re:That's not me! by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 1

    OK, no idea what happened to those links, but way to ruin a gag, Slashdot.

    --
    Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
  21. Re:Donald Trump - Traitor by yuriklastalov · · Score: 1

    So Hilllary, then.

  22. Re:Donald Trump - Traitor by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

    I think Hillary is working for Moloch - it explains her enthusiasm for abortion.

    In fact the last US election was basically Kek vs Moloch. Luckily for the kiddies, Kek won.

    https://imgur.com/a/3zMoD

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;