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Trump Administration Approves Tariffs of 30 Percent On Imported Solar Panels (axios.com)
The Trump administration just approved tariffs of 30% on imported solar panels. Axios explains why it matters: "Most of the American solar industry has opposed tariffs on panels, saying they would raise prices and hurt the sector. A small group of solar panel manufacturers argued -- successfully -- that an influx of cheap imports, largely from China or Chinese-owned companies, was hurting domestic manufacturing. It's also part of President Trump's broader trade agenda against China." From the report: The tariffs would last for four years and decline in increments of 5% from 30%: 25%, 20% and finally 15% in the fourth year. The tariffs are lower than the 35% the U.S. International Trade Commission had initially recommended last year, per Bloomberg. This is actually the third, and broadest, set of tariffs the U.S. government has issued on solar imports in recent years. The Obama administration issued two earlier rounds of tariffs on a narrower set of imports. Monday's action also imposed import tariffs on washing machines, a much lower profile issue than solar energy.
How many times does Trump have to literally extinguish all life on planet earth before you fools listen?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/29/opinions/trump-signs-earth-death-warrant-jones/index.html
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-could-destroy-entire-human-species-says-yale-psychiatrist-who-warned-772328
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-nuclear-weapons-holocaust-congress-710653
https://news.grabien.com/story-cnn-govt-shutdown-risks-undetected-asteroid-strike
Cheap Chinese panels were probably going to kill local production. OTOH those cheap panels were getting us off dirty fossil fuels. But OTOOH the reason those Chinese panels are cheap is they don't have much in the way of labor law or environmental regulations. But OTOOOH I don't expect to see much in the way of other tariffs (This one was easy to get through because the coal lobby got Trump elected).
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The Obama administration also accused China of cheating on solar panels via government subsidies; and tariffs were tacked on as punishment. As I understand it, the World Trade Organization agreed that China cheated, but disagreed with the US's remedy.
While I cannot stand Trump in general, he is sometimes right about trade and visa workers. Just because you are an idiot does not mean you are always wrong. Go 15% of Trump!
Table-ized A.I.
Although economists disagree by how much, the consensus view among economists and economic historians is that "The passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff exacerbated the Great Depression.
The act raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
TFS explains right there, in the summary, that this is the third round of tariffs after Obama's two... but the Trump trolls keep on rolling. No Trump fan, here, but the Trump derangement is sad, especially from supposedly educated slashdotters.
Stupid sexy Flanders.
Fuck that. It's a boon to the oil and coal industry. Solar panels just went up by 30%, slowing down our energy independence. We could have moved so much more energy production on-shore. Who cares where manufacturing happens except the manufacturers? Are we going to impose the same 30% tariff on imported coal-mining equipment?
Fuck that.
It applies to US produced polysilicon shipped over there.
The Chinese want a monopoly on PV panels and the entire supply chain, and to that end anything goes. Daqo gets free electricity for one example.
I don't know, how many times has Trump extinguished all life on this planet? Can you give us some hard numbers? i've search google for it and I've come up with nothing.
Why don't you get back to us with some hard numbers on this.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
What about American solar panel manufacturers? God forbid the Chinese have the same worker and environmental protections as the US to increase their costs of production. But it's easy to claim moral superiority on the climate when you export your pollution to cheap Chinese labor and unregulated industry.
It is awful. basically you are now subsidising local less efficient manufacturing. Everyone loses, less panels will be installed, you may maintain a few manufacturing jobs but they should be offset by the reduction in retail and installer jobs you will lose by increasing costs by 30%.
The problem with modern economic theory is that it doesn't measure success in the right way. It's all about money coming into or out of a country, of the cost of goods, and the cost to manufacture.
Nowhere in those theories is the human cost taken into effect.
In the modern theories, it's always better when you have lower costs, even if those costs result in fewer people being employed. You can have lots of low cost products available, and yet no one can afford to purchase them because no one has the money to spare - employment is so low that no disposable cash drives the economy.
The original argument for Chinese manufacturing was exactly that: Shoes become $1 cheaper and 100 workers lose employment, but the total savings across the country of people purchasing shoes more than compensates for the loss of 100 salaries. Overall, it's better for everyone.
Do you see the flaw in the theory yet?
When you say "maintain a few manufacturing jobs but offset by loss of installed jobs" you are making the same argument.
It measures success as the cost of goods, and nothing else, without taking into account other aspects of the economy.
A successful economy depends on people having money, to drive the economy.
I care where the manufacturing happens. The Chinese are very far behind on their environmental regulations, not mention worker rights. Also this move will help our energy independence than hinder it. We we just keep importing cheap panels from China we become dependent on them. This will make domestic panels more cost effective and actually speed up our energy independence.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Boy some mods really hate it when you ask for hard data on someone hysterical rants. Especially if it shines light on their narrow view of the world.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
It is close to the 35% the USITC recommended (in TFS).
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
What about American solar panel manufacturers?
This ensures that American solar panel manufacturers will be shielded from competition, face no pressure to innovate, and fall even further behind in the world market.
Just more corporate welfare, at the expense of American families, and one more field where America has given up even trying to lead. So much for MAGA.
Tariffs only make sense if the Chinese government is subsidizing their solar panel manufacturing to the extent that those companies are essentially dumping.
Otherwise, if Chinese manufacturers can produce panels more efficiently than U.S. manufacturers, its in our best interest to import panels and focus our efforts to areas where we're more efficient. Being able to manufacture solar panels has nowhere near the impact on energy independence as does producing ones own fossil fuels. Existing panels don't suddenly stop working if we stop trading with China.
What you are talking about has been tried many times in the past and has always come out behind the current systems.
The objective should never be to "employ the maximum number of people". That is the intended side effect; not objective. There are many failed and current states that tried to make that an objective. India, Russia, Poland, a few South American countries, a few African countries, etc.
"Modern economics" was built upon these many many lessons learned over centuries. I wouldn't dismiss them so lightly. Given a few considerations, scope, and boundaries, there are slightly better models than today. But, as shitty as our models are, they are far better than the ones before.
So how does that view fit in with the fact that the tariffs will reduce to elimination over the next 4 years?
Sounds to me that it's an opportunity for american manufacturing to get their feet before competition resumes, and nothing else.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Just ask yourself a Question.
Could you build a plant, and operate it here following the same environmental and safety regulations used in China?
The answer is obviously no. Why? Because those working conditions and environmental practices would be condemned as immoral and an affront to the environment.
So, why then do people seem to think it suddenly becomes moral and OK to have those conditions in a place 3,000 miles away? If it's Not OK here, then it's not OK there. Or, visa versa. If it's good enough for the Chinese, then it's good enough for Jersey.
People may think it's good to have cheap solar cells, but unless you can make them cheap in a way that squares with the rhetoric of the labor and environmental movements, then cheap solar cells are not viable.
Interestingly, saying that they should make these in those conditions in a foreign land seems to actually be racists.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
So how does that view fit in with the fact that the tariffs will reduce to elimination over the next 4 years?
Because once corporate welfare is in place, it becomes politically impossible to remove it. The companies receiving the subsidies will have more money for lobbying, while the (far more numerous) companies hurt by the tariffs will have less to spend or will go out of business.
Sounds to me that it's an opportunity for american manufacturing to get their feet before competition resumes, and nothing else.
This is the classical justification for protectionism: That it is only "temporary" while we "learn to compete". But that never works because companies don't become stronger by being coddled.
and we especially hate Clinton (both of them) since they ran the country right of what even Regan did (seriously, go look at how much deregulation and funding cuts Bill did). This is not to say we oppose tariffs, BTW. The left is generally in favor of them, especially for countries like Mexico and China who abuse their people and their land. Go look up a youtube channel called 'Secular Talk' if you want a good idea of what the actual left supports.
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China has a habit of doing just that. Subsidizing their industries and dumping cheap products on the world at the expense of other economies. The have done this in the past with cheap steel. Make no mistake, the Chinese are purely looking after Chinese interest. I, personally can't find any fault with this logic.
There is a difference between efficiently produced panels and cheap panels. Cheap panels will have a shorter lifespan than say more quality produced panels. So to replace a cheaper panels as they wear out will require the manufacturing of more panels. Solar panels are not with out a environmental cost, that is most evident in the manufacturing phase.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
If you expect protected American companies to be able to compete on the world stage you are delusional at best. American companies have risen to the competition in the past and were in the process of doing so before this happened. Now we have an artificially created short supply on panels. I don't see this helping anyone, especially America
once more into the breach
The companies receiving the subsidies will have more money for lobbying, while the (far more numerous) companies hurt by the tariffs will have less to spend or will go out of business.
Subsidies? Tarrifs aren't distributed to domestic manufacturers, they are taxes, added to the federal budget.
You knew that, right? Seriously - you didn't think that the gov't collects tarrifs on imports and distributes the money to US manufacturers, did you?
Ken
Only the Chinese have been starting to realize that the environmental toll that they are paying is costing them far more than it is benefiting them. They are starting to push hard on that front. As far as the tariffs are concerned, the real winners are the gas and oil companies. Now let me think, who in the government is tied in with the gas and oil companies??? Well it will come to me soon. Solar panels are made here with parts sourced abroad. This will simply move assembly here and provide a few jobs tending assembly machines on the line. No real bump for the workers in the USA. This is what one would call window dressing and subterfuge. Again, the American people will pay the price for this legislation. The Chinese will find ways around the tariffs and it will again be business as usual for them.
A few years ago we tried boot-strapping solar panels in the US. It turned out to be a bust because we couldn't compete with China on costs.
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
Solyndra was simply a textbook horrible business plan from beginning to end:
Built fragile, complex solar panels, in a heavily automated factory, on some of the most expensive land inte world, paying some of the highest wages and taxes, that sold at a premium that way exceeded the slight performance boost their curved design provided over plain, flat Chinese imports.
Their plan was so obviously horrible that when they applied for a half-billion dollars the analysts could predict, to the month, when Solyndra would go bankrupt - so they denied their federally-secured loan application.
Then the company 'liberally' donated to President Obama's campaign, theirloan application was approved, and then, as if by magic, Solyndra went bankrupt EXACTLY when the previous administration's analysts predicted!
Amazing!
Ken
This will simply move assembly here and provide a few jobs tending assembly machines on the line. No real bump for the workers in the USA.
That's nothing new.
In an effort to avoid counterfeit or inferior quality material, many American companies (especially in the energy sector) stipulate in their RFQs and POs that material can only be sourced from a specified list of countries.
American suppliers circumvent this by sourcing the same material from the same chinese vendors that they (we) always have, then assembling them in the US, and stamping "Made in the US" on them. The actual law is intricate, but you can read a summary here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Well I would be more worried if you did take me seriously here. I think it's fairly obvious to every one but a few, and you, that I'm being sarcastic.
So did you ever apologize for that homophobic comment you made?
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Subsidies? Tarrifs aren't distributed to domestic manufacturers, they are taxes, added to the federal budget.
Wrong. These are protective tariffs. They are being put in place to make imports prohibitively expensive, so few if any will be imported. So no "tax" will be collected. This allows domestic manufacturers to raise prices beyond the market price.
So the net effect is:
1. People are required by law to pay more for solar panels.
2. This extra money goes to corporations that did nothing to earn it.
This is corporate welfare, pure and simple. Corporate welfare is stupid when it is used for something like ethanol subsidies, which at least in principle are an improvement over burning fossil fuels. But this is EVEN STUPIDER since it will DISCOURAGE solar installations, and result in more FFs being burned.
I can't believe anyone with a brain thinks this is a good idea. In the short run we spend more on fossil fuels. In the long run, we make our solar industry even more uncompetitive.
As it is, it’s not clear what difference this will make. Sure, buyers in the US May purchase less Chinese panels. Or they might just buy them because even with the tariff, they are still cheaper than US made options, and spend less on other goods. Or they might buy Japanese, or Vietnamese, or Taiwanese, or European, or Indian made solar panels. And their behaviour certainly won’t be a guide to the other 97% of people (i.e the 97% of the market that is not the US). How will the US actually compete on the open market unless their goods actually become competitive?
Practically everything is made in China these days. But the Trump regime is singling out solar panels. Gee, wonder why?
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Has there ever been a corporate or citizen's welfare program that has not been dropped as soon as the political tides turn in the US
Absolutely. Oil subsidies and tax breaks have persisted for decades through Democratic and Republican administrations. Same for tobacco subsidies, sugar subsidies, corn ethanol subsidies, etc. The mohair subsidy persisted for more than 70 years after it became completely pointless in 1945. The carried interest tax break for investment bankers famously just survived in Trump's big tax reform, despite his repeated promises during the campaign to eliminate it.
I could go on, and on, and on.
It is much harder to find the opposite: An example of corporate welfare that was actually ended.
hundreds of orders of magnitude
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Tariffs only make sense if the Chinese government is subsidizing their solar panel manufacturing
They are. By allowing the environment to be screwed up and treating their workers like replaceable tools they have an effective subsidy over USA manufacturers. You can use cute words like "efficient" to describe it as much as you want but the reality is that the USA holds itself to certain standards and by not imposing tariffs on goods not imported to those standards the government policies effectively drive production offshore.
The only question is: Why are you limiting this to solar panels? Maybe if we got back to paying for things what they are worth if they were built in then the USA wouldn't be what it is now... a service industry.
So does that mean that Europeans should not buy anything from the US, because the US workers rights are lacking compared to the EU?
Do you only buy products from the EU as the US workers standard is not up to par to the best? Or are you just conveniently say that the standards where you are a good enough?
Just a question, what device do you type this on and how much did you pay for it?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
"Trump Administration Approves Tariffs of 30 Percent On Imported Washing Machines"
And where is the information about the already existing 150 tariffs that these two are going to be added to? Ah... it would spin quite as well that way now would it when we're looking at the actual facts. If we admitted there are already 150 existing tariffs and it hasn't completely flipped trade upside down, we couldn't as easily make it appear as though two additional tariffs would completely destabilize free trade with FUD.
We'll make great pets
You really think that? That is absolutely, stunning. If low skilled manufacturing jobs are useless, then why is China have so many? No job is useless or worthless, and low skilled manufacturing jobs are all some people are qualified for.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
You are one sad little man aren't you. I'm not sure what has gotten you so fixated on stalking me around Slashdot with your homophobic rants but that is fine. Whatever floats your boat.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
"What American solar manufacturers?"
Solyndra. Oh, never mind.
Just another day in Paradise
Also, I can play your silly hypocritical game of words too. Here it goes: you cherry-picked 6 sentences, out of which the first 2 are wrong not because the inverse is true but because Mexico simply does not "send" people; people decide to flee from Mexico. As for the remaining 4 sentences, I'm pretty sure a huge majority of Mexican immigrants are not drug traffickers and the proportion of rapists will not even be that much higher than the general population because the economical immigrants outnumber the criminals fleeing the police by a large factor. And yes, *some* are definitely not good people; that's what his awful generalization is based on to start with.
All in all, I'm counting him as plain wrong on 3 accounts (2x "mexico sends" + the "rapists" thing) and as "misleading" on another one ("bringing drugs"; there surely is a problem with drugs coming from Mexico but the issue is largely separate from economical migration, and this is a blatant attempt to conflate the two).
TL;DR: for a cherry-picked statement purported to demonstrate Trump's truthfulness, this is a rather abysmal showing.
What will happen during Trump's presidency remains to be seen. In the first year we've seen economic growth, is anyone disputing that? Anyway, I think it's interesting to keep note of the headlines as times goes on.
Back in February 2017: "Trump is upset the media is not reporting a meaningless statistic about the national debt" https://www.washingtonpost.com...
In January 2018: "December US budget deficit shrinks to $23.2 billion" https://wtop.com/national/2018...
I don't claim to know the future, but looking at the past it seems like people's concerns re: this president have been pretty overblown. I will watch impartially as the story unfolds.
Tesla makes their solar roof products in Buffalo, NY.
On the other hand Japan is very successful, the world's third largest economy. It's still normal to employ people out of school until retirement there, and they tend to employ what the west would consider an excess of staff but which they consider assets.
In fact, companies that treat workers the way many western companies do, especially US companies in at-will states, are called "black companies" in Japan. They are regarded as basically scams, get-rich-quick schemes for their owners that you would avoid working for.
That all works for the Japanese because they are Japanese with a Japanese culture and society which are radically different than most other Western nations. It's the same sort of disconnect when comparing socialist Norwegian nation's economies, healthcare systems, etc, to the US. Totally different societies and cultures. Apples & oranges.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
Depends on the tariff.
How?
Was the tariff put in place on a level playing field, or one in which a nation was subsidizing their industry in order to dominate it?
The field is never level. China is better at manufacturing panels than the US, in part at least, because they were quicker to realise that Climate change wasn't a time travelling zombie conspiracy. And in part because because they are better at manufacturing in general. You can bemoan the reasons why, or you can try to be competitive, or you can find industries where you are better than the Chinese, and encourage those.
As for subsidies, that's kinda the point. Had the US subsidised the manufacturing of panels 15 years ago when the market was little, then perhaps they would have enough IP and a solid base that allowed them to compete. But no, they chose to consider the opportunity a risk, and continued to subsidise the burning of coal. Panels bad/burning coal good and so on. So the result is exactly what we would expect to happen.
Grants. We call those grants. If it was sold to the US people as a "loan program" when it didn't expect to get the money back, that.... could be fraud. The government trying to get into the "venture capitalist" business where they give out tax money to risky ventures would be so ripe for corruption it's an obviously bad idea. You can't trust people to make bets with other people's money.
I'd fully support R&D grants to help solar technology and engineering. Like this guy. He looks cool. I'm down for that.