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Trump Administration Approves Tariffs of 30 Percent On Imported Solar Panels (axios.com)
The Trump administration just approved tariffs of 30% on imported solar panels. Axios explains why it matters: "Most of the American solar industry has opposed tariffs on panels, saying they would raise prices and hurt the sector. A small group of solar panel manufacturers argued -- successfully -- that an influx of cheap imports, largely from China or Chinese-owned companies, was hurting domestic manufacturing. It's also part of President Trump's broader trade agenda against China." From the report: The tariffs would last for four years and decline in increments of 5% from 30%: 25%, 20% and finally 15% in the fourth year. The tariffs are lower than the 35% the U.S. International Trade Commission had initially recommended last year, per Bloomberg. This is actually the third, and broadest, set of tariffs the U.S. government has issued on solar imports in recent years. The Obama administration issued two earlier rounds of tariffs on a narrower set of imports. Monday's action also imposed import tariffs on washing machines, a much lower profile issue than solar energy.
How many times does Trump have to literally extinguish all life on planet earth before you fools listen?
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/29/opinions/trump-signs-earth-death-warrant-jones/index.html
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-could-destroy-entire-human-species-says-yale-psychiatrist-who-warned-772328
http://www.newsweek.com/trump-nuclear-weapons-holocaust-congress-710653
https://news.grabien.com/story-cnn-govt-shutdown-risks-undetected-asteroid-strike
Cheap Chinese panels were probably going to kill local production. OTOH those cheap panels were getting us off dirty fossil fuels. But OTOOH the reason those Chinese panels are cheap is they don't have much in the way of labor law or environmental regulations. But OTOOOH I don't expect to see much in the way of other tariffs (This one was easy to get through because the coal lobby got Trump elected).
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Now maybe we can get back to mining coal.
But only when Trump does it.
U.S. Imposes Tariffs On Chinese Solar Cells Posted by Soulskill on Friday May 18, 2012 @08:32AM from the sunshine-of-your-love dept.
Solar Panel Trade War Heats Up Posted by timothy on Monday October 24, 2011 @07:07AM from the remember-to-only-accept-domestic-subsidies dept.
US Funds Aggressive Tech To Cut Solar Power Costs Posted by samzenpus on Thursday October 27, 2011 @04:33AM from the aim-big dept.
The Obama administration also accused China of cheating on solar panels via government subsidies; and tariffs were tacked on as punishment. As I understand it, the World Trade Organization agreed that China cheated, but disagreed with the US's remedy.
While I cannot stand Trump in general, he is sometimes right about trade and visa workers. Just because you are an idiot does not mean you are always wrong. Go 15% of Trump!
Table-ized A.I.
Although economists disagree by how much, the consensus view among economists and economic historians is that "The passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff exacerbated the Great Depression.
The act raised U.S. tariffs on over 20,000 imported goods.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
This is just part of the plan. Kill the competition.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The illustrious forces of the free market at work. That age-old, right-wing, conservative, Republican mantra. Small government, 'hands-off' business.
I guess the rest of the world doesn't care. We still get the same high-quality 23% efficiency cells from China that we always got - for the same price.
It is amazing how many innovative commercial projects you can power with them.....we just ignore the 'Made in China' bit, because it does not affect our ego.
you act as if China and the US are the only places that make the panels. The US has a tiny market share (even in the US) as they are neither cheap nor the best quality. There are more than a dozen major manufacturing countries for panels around the world.
Fuck that. It's a boon to the oil and coal industry. Solar panels just went up by 30%, slowing down our energy independence. We could have moved so much more energy production on-shore. Who cares where manufacturing happens except the manufacturers? Are we going to impose the same 30% tariff on imported coal-mining equipment?
Fuck that.
It applies to US produced polysilicon shipped over there.
The Chinese want a monopoly on PV panels and the entire supply chain, and to that end anything goes. Daqo gets free electricity for one example.
The days of the costs of the physical solar cells mattering went out a few years ago.
The major component costs are now labor costs and permitting.
It's like me telling you truckers will pay an extra 5 cents at the pump. The market will still price it anyway, and it will just be a sliver of a portion of the price.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
That's obviously fake news.
if anything it's probably more so since it probably uses more machines and less labor. Chinese panels are cheaper because the poor working and living conditions of their people. Now, what I wouldn't mind seeing is tariffs that kick in when there's a disparity. Canada suggested the US do these when we renegotiate NAFTA, although mostly as a dig on our low quality of life; suggesting that they'd need such tariffs themselves since we don't have things like single payer health care, mandatory sick and vacation time, etc, etc.
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I don't know, how many times has Trump extinguished all life on this planet? Can you give us some hard numbers? i've search google for it and I've come up with nothing.
Why don't you get back to us with some hard numbers on this.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
What about American solar panel manufacturers? God forbid the Chinese have the same worker and environmental protections as the US to increase their costs of production. But it's easy to claim moral superiority on the climate when you export your pollution to cheap Chinese labor and unregulated industry.
It is awful. basically you are now subsidising local less efficient manufacturing. Everyone loses, less panels will be installed, you may maintain a few manufacturing jobs but they should be offset by the reduction in retail and installer jobs you will lose by increasing costs by 30%.
The problem with modern economic theory is that it doesn't measure success in the right way. It's all about money coming into or out of a country, of the cost of goods, and the cost to manufacture.
Nowhere in those theories is the human cost taken into effect.
In the modern theories, it's always better when you have lower costs, even if those costs result in fewer people being employed. You can have lots of low cost products available, and yet no one can afford to purchase them because no one has the money to spare - employment is so low that no disposable cash drives the economy.
The original argument for Chinese manufacturing was exactly that: Shoes become $1 cheaper and 100 workers lose employment, but the total savings across the country of people purchasing shoes more than compensates for the loss of 100 salaries. Overall, it's better for everyone.
Do you see the flaw in the theory yet?
When you say "maintain a few manufacturing jobs but offset by loss of installed jobs" you are making the same argument.
It measures success as the cost of goods, and nothing else, without taking into account other aspects of the economy.
A successful economy depends on people having money, to drive the economy.
I care where the manufacturing happens. The Chinese are very far behind on their environmental regulations, not mention worker rights. Also this move will help our energy independence than hinder it. We we just keep importing cheap panels from China we become dependent on them. This will make domestic panels more cost effective and actually speed up our energy independence.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Well...the young US solar panel industry and the domestic workers they employ.
Domestic manufacturing *IS* a good thing and we need to work to keep as much of it as we can, we've lost waaaaay too much over the past few decades.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Boy some mods really hate it when you ask for hard data on someone hysterical rants. Especially if it shines light on their narrow view of the world.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
A solar company would obviously benefit by having artificially cheap panels to sell. No wonder they're angry. Big picture, though, the Chinese are buying the market by bankrupting domestic manufacturers. In this case, Trump is right.
Although economists disagree by how much, the consensus view among economists and economic historians is that "The passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff exacerbated the Great Depression.
I thought the reason we didn't have as many recessions in the late 20th was due to the Glass Steagall act, and the reason we had the most recent one was because we dismantled that.
Is that not the case?
One could argue that TARP exacerbated our most recent depression (greater than "the great depression", by all accounts), because comparing our results with other countries that *didn't* bail out the banks (notably: Iceland) shows that we fared a lot worse by not simply letting the banks fail.
So what's really going on here?
Are you arguing a point of religious dogma, essentially a "school of thought"?
Or are there clear and unambiguous reasons for the great depression, with close parallels to our current situation? Do all economic models agree that tariffs are a bad idea?
I'm confused.
If we reinstitute Glass Steagall -style limitations (which we haven't yet), shouldn't that protect us from exacerbating depressions?
Though the solar tax credit is still (currently) alive for a few more years. 30% of all costs.
It really doesn't "make sense" for me to get solar financially since I have a city owned power company with low power costs and I use relatively little power.. I still may eventually do it, for environmental reasons (in the long long long run).
I need 5 to 10kwh of installed panel this year. I buy 100w panels due to shipping costs. they are 125$
I assume you mean 5 to 10 kW of panels. Or do you mean about 1/5 that to make 5 to 10 kWh per day, or about 5 times that to average 5 to 10 kW 24/7? (That's figuring 5 solar hours as a rule-of-thumb for a good site in the mid-latitude continental US.)
That's very expensive. Panels (new, UL approved, in 10-panel pallets) were going for $0.33 per watt last year. Maybe they weren't 100W panels, but shipping a pallet anywhere in the continental US is not all that pricey.
Even with these tariffs added, at 5 to 10 kW of panels (or 25 - 50, or 1 - 2) you should be able to do lots better than $1.50/watt.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
It is close to the 35% the USITC recommended (in TFS).
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
What about American solar panel manufacturers?
This ensures that American solar panel manufacturers will be shielded from competition, face no pressure to innovate, and fall even further behind in the world market.
Just more corporate welfare, at the expense of American families, and one more field where America has given up even trying to lead. So much for MAGA.
... slowing down our energy independence ...
In Republican speak, "energy independence" is code for fossil-fuel companies and them doing whatever they want - like pollute rivers, etc...
More seriously, complaints about this are over-blown. From United States energy independence
In total energy consumption, the U.S. was between 86% and 91% self-sufficient in 2016. In May 2011, the country became a net exporter of refined petroleum products. As of 2014, the United States was the world's third-largest producer of crude oil, after Saudi Arabia and Russia and second largest exporter of refined products, after Russia.
Note the phrase, "net exporter of refined petroleum products."
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
Elon Musk must be happy with this news.
This can't be a bad thing for Tesla who isn't exactly doing it for the coal diggers who backed Trump.
Solar Roof is made at Telsa's Buffalo Gigafactory isn't it?
Tariffs only make sense if the Chinese government is subsidizing their solar panel manufacturing to the extent that those companies are essentially dumping.
Otherwise, if Chinese manufacturers can produce panels more efficiently than U.S. manufacturers, its in our best interest to import panels and focus our efforts to areas where we're more efficient. Being able to manufacture solar panels has nowhere near the impact on energy independence as does producing ones own fossil fuels. Existing panels don't suddenly stop working if we stop trading with China.
What you are talking about has been tried many times in the past and has always come out behind the current systems.
The objective should never be to "employ the maximum number of people". That is the intended side effect; not objective. There are many failed and current states that tried to make that an objective. India, Russia, Poland, a few South American countries, a few African countries, etc.
"Modern economics" was built upon these many many lessons learned over centuries. I wouldn't dismiss them so lightly. Given a few considerations, scope, and boundaries, there are slightly better models than today. But, as shitty as our models are, they are far better than the ones before.
The US, directly and through the WTO used to coerce other countries into lowering their protectionist tariffs. This was supposed to make US exports cheaper.
Unfortunately manufacturing costs in those countries was way lower, leading companies to shift production.
Now you have the reverse.
So how does that view fit in with the fact that the tariffs will reduce to elimination over the next 4 years?
Sounds to me that it's an opportunity for american manufacturing to get their feet before competition resumes, and nothing else.
Mod me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!
Would an import tariff like this have saved Solyndra, or was the company just a shell for political contributions.
Organization? You must be joking..
Domestic manufacturing of solar panels creates basically no jobs.
However there is a certain level of know how necessary to run a plant, so keeping some plants running make of course sense.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Plus he totally ignored Kevin when he was lost in the Trump Hotel in "Home Alone 2."
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Just ask yourself a Question.
Could you build a plant, and operate it here following the same environmental and safety regulations used in China?
The answer is obviously no. Why? Because those working conditions and environmental practices would be condemned as immoral and an affront to the environment.
So, why then do people seem to think it suddenly becomes moral and OK to have those conditions in a place 3,000 miles away? If it's Not OK here, then it's not OK there. Or, visa versa. If it's good enough for the Chinese, then it's good enough for Jersey.
People may think it's good to have cheap solar cells, but unless you can make them cheap in a way that squares with the rhetoric of the labor and environmental movements, then cheap solar cells are not viable.
Interestingly, saying that they should make these in those conditions in a foreign land seems to actually be racists.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
So how does that view fit in with the fact that the tariffs will reduce to elimination over the next 4 years?
Because once corporate welfare is in place, it becomes politically impossible to remove it. The companies receiving the subsidies will have more money for lobbying, while the (far more numerous) companies hurt by the tariffs will have less to spend or will go out of business.
Sounds to me that it's an opportunity for american manufacturing to get their feet before competition resumes, and nothing else.
This is the classical justification for protectionism: That it is only "temporary" while we "learn to compete". But that never works because companies don't become stronger by being coddled.
Cost of a PV system was in the "balance of system" since 2012.
And the price of a PV system will continue to drop at almost the same level as the tariff - 4.4% per year.
So the tariff will be meaningless in half the time.
Also... It's pretty much obvious from the graph on the link above that even with that 30% hike on Chinese solar panels - they will still be cheaper than the ones Made in USA.
Aaaand... that India is making China look like USA with their prices - 65 cents per watt.
On top of all that... If anything, this will push China to cut costs further and to export more to non-US customers.
Or, to simply have the government of China "eat the difference" for a while. It's not like they can't do subsidies too.
But hey... China doesn't have the benefit of being run by a "stable genius".
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
now. In the 1920s there was a much, much more even playing field between countries (albeit because just about everywhere was a shithole). Our trade in balance with China & Mexico is almost completely due to the fact that their respective governments and ruling class allow their people to be abused to an extent we no longer allow.
Also, most historians agree the tariffs made things worse, but I've yet to meet one that thought the tariffs _caused_ the Depression. Generally it was wealth inequality that caused it. Speaking of which, we're at levels not seen since the 1920s...
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and we especially hate Clinton (both of them) since they ran the country right of what even Regan did (seriously, go look at how much deregulation and funding cuts Bill did). This is not to say we oppose tariffs, BTW. The left is generally in favor of them, especially for countries like Mexico and China who abuse their people and their land. Go look up a youtube channel called 'Secular Talk' if you want a good idea of what the actual left supports.
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China has a habit of doing just that. Subsidizing their industries and dumping cheap products on the world at the expense of other economies. The have done this in the past with cheap steel. Make no mistake, the Chinese are purely looking after Chinese interest. I, personally can't find any fault with this logic.
There is a difference between efficiently produced panels and cheap panels. Cheap panels will have a shorter lifespan than say more quality produced panels. So to replace a cheaper panels as they wear out will require the manufacturing of more panels. Solar panels are not with out a environmental cost, that is most evident in the manufacturing phase.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
If you expect protected American companies to be able to compete on the world stage you are delusional at best. American companies have risen to the competition in the past and were in the process of doing so before this happened. Now we have an artificially created short supply on panels. I don't see this helping anyone, especially America
once more into the breach
The companies receiving the subsidies will have more money for lobbying, while the (far more numerous) companies hurt by the tariffs will have less to spend or will go out of business.
Subsidies? Tarrifs aren't distributed to domestic manufacturers, they are taxes, added to the federal budget.
You knew that, right? Seriously - you didn't think that the gov't collects tarrifs on imports and distributes the money to US manufacturers, did you?
Ken
Note the phrase, "net exporter of refined petroleum products."
Because it's illegal to export US crude oil.
Ken
Only the Chinese have been starting to realize that the environmental toll that they are paying is costing them far more than it is benefiting them. They are starting to push hard on that front. As far as the tariffs are concerned, the real winners are the gas and oil companies. Now let me think, who in the government is tied in with the gas and oil companies??? Well it will come to me soon. Solar panels are made here with parts sourced abroad. This will simply move assembly here and provide a few jobs tending assembly machines on the line. No real bump for the workers in the USA. This is what one would call window dressing and subterfuge. Again, the American people will pay the price for this legislation. The Chinese will find ways around the tariffs and it will again be business as usual for them.
Note the phrase, "net exporter of refined petroleum products."
Because it's illegal to export US crude oil.
If true, I didn't know that, but why would you want to rather than refined products?
[ Ignoring that I was modded "troll"... ]
It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
is there some reason 'single payer' healthcare coverage is better than 'employer paid' healthcare coverage?
Ken
The whole country is pulling on one rope. It's over the top, of course, but they use the advantages of teamwork, aka being social. With a 1984 vibe.
Meanwhile, the US has a lizard culture, where it's everyone for himself, and business basically is about who stabs others in the back and takes their things the best. Also with a 1984 vibe, but on the side.
I'm no fan of either, but teamwork literally made humanity great (among other things like hands, big brains, etc), and superior to anti-social lifeforms. This is still just as true as it always was.
So they're Grays, and we're Reptilians? Fascinating.
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
A few years ago we tried boot-strapping solar panels in the US. It turned out to be a bust because we couldn't compete with China on costs.
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
Suck it up, buttercup.
Your idea of energy independence and saving the planet relies on solar panels built in inhumane factories by laborers earning slave wages, polluting the environment and then put on a cargo ship, shipped halfway across the planet, put on a train and delivered to your city. So far, your good with all that, but you draw the line at paying $165 for the solar panel?
You could buy a US made panel for slightly less, and satisfy yourself that the workers were likely paid a living wage, that the factory did not pollute the planet, and your panels total carbon footprint doesn't include an ocean voyage from China to to you.
Ken
The Left: Outraged when companies have less regulation. Outraged when companies have more profits. Outraged when forced to compete on the open market. Outraged when protected from abusive foreign markets. Outraged literally all the fucking time, about literally everything, no matter what.
Trump can't seriously think
Correct.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
No. It ensures Chinese solar panel manufacturers can't get away with being subsidized by the government so they can sell below cost and drive the competition out of business.
-- Will program for bandwidth
This will simply move assembly here and provide a few jobs tending assembly machines on the line. No real bump for the workers in the USA.
That's nothing new.
In an effort to avoid counterfeit or inferior quality material, many American companies (especially in the energy sector) stipulate in their RFQs and POs that material can only be sourced from a specified list of countries.
American suppliers circumvent this by sourcing the same material from the same chinese vendors that they (we) always have, then assembling them in the US, and stamping "Made in the US" on them. The actual law is intricate, but you can read a summary here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Where is your proof that you searched google and came up with nothing? You have yet to show any evidence of your claim.
When you have several peer-reviewed citations that you have searched google and come up with nothing, we may take you more seriously.
Probably not, though.
You are welcome on my lawn.
They're shooting a remake of that scene, with Stormy Daniels playing the part of Macaulay Culkin.
You are welcome on my lawn.
This will simply move assembly here and provide a few jobs tending assembly machines on the line
You talk like this is a bad thing. Any jobs this bring home is a good thing in my option. It is also a good thing if they are made here instead of in China. At least for now the environmental and worker regulations are are better than they are in China.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
It is important that we develop our solar industry and not let it get crushed by Chinese dumping. It seems that the GP is putting "GDP growth" as not only #1 priority, but the only priority. This is false. We have other priorities. China is a hostile country and they will gladly make us hurt if they can destroy our solar industry. Employing the American people is also a very important goal, and it is worthwhile even if the GDP growth is not maximized.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
The legal justification for a tariff under our treaty obligations is that the foreign competition is unfairly subsidized. In that is *true* then American company innovation *might* also be retarded by making payback times too long to justify investments.
The political argument is that this will be good for US workers, but that's an open question. If the solar installation industry collapses, that would be bad for workers doing that, and it might even be bad for US solar manufacturers who need those guys to stay in business.
So really all the possible outcomes are on the table.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Well I would be more worried if you did take me seriously here. I think it's fairly obvious to every one but a few, and you, that I'm being sarcastic.
So did you ever apologize for that homophobic comment you made?
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Yes, it's cheaper and much more efficient.Administrators and similar people profiting of busywork and monopolies don't like it though, so Republicans basically.
The left is generally in favor of them, especially for countries like Mexico and China who abuse their people and their land.
Yeah, just like how red light cameras are for making intersections safer. Not for raising government revenue, no sireee.
A factory in China could be paying their workers a decent living wage, and not screwing up the environment, yet their goods will still be subject to the tariff. Congratulations government asshats, you've just given them more incentive to cut corners to retain profitability!
If you're really just trying to make sure your foreign competitors are playing fair, you simply require that they meet the same environmental and labor standards as domestically manufactured goods, lest they be seized at the border. But that just wouldn't fly, because it doesn't give American companies an artificial advantage.
---
DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
North America is not even close to the largest consumer of solar panels, China used half the panels in the world in 2017.
I can't find statistics quickly enough, but I'll bet that more households go looking for a washing machine each year than go looking to buy solar panels. Let's see what happens when Joe Sixpack notices that the prices have jumped 30%.
Will they let it stand or will they add 35% fees to American passenger jets or cars.
Subsidies? Tarrifs aren't distributed to domestic manufacturers, they are taxes, added to the federal budget.
Wrong. These are protective tariffs. They are being put in place to make imports prohibitively expensive, so few if any will be imported. So no "tax" will be collected. This allows domestic manufacturers to raise prices beyond the market price.
So the net effect is:
1. People are required by law to pay more for solar panels.
2. This extra money goes to corporations that did nothing to earn it.
This is corporate welfare, pure and simple. Corporate welfare is stupid when it is used for something like ethanol subsidies, which at least in principle are an improvement over burning fossil fuels. But this is EVEN STUPIDER since it will DISCOURAGE solar installations, and result in more FFs being burned.
I can't believe anyone with a brain thinks this is a good idea. In the short run we spend more on fossil fuels. In the long run, we make our solar industry even more uncompetitive.
Happened in Europe in the past as well. Some fuckwit Belgian politican just showing how much bullshit caring for the environment is to the politicians.
As it is, it’s not clear what difference this will make. Sure, buyers in the US May purchase less Chinese panels. Or they might just buy them because even with the tariff, they are still cheaper than US made options, and spend less on other goods. Or they might buy Japanese, or Vietnamese, or Taiwanese, or European, or Indian made solar panels. And their behaviour certainly won’t be a guide to the other 97% of people (i.e the 97% of the market that is not the US). How will the US actually compete on the open market unless their goods actually become competitive?
Is that what tarriffs usually do? Or do they encourage local businesses to become less competive?
Practically everything is made in China these days. But the Trump regime is singling out solar panels. Gee, wonder why?
Never let a lack of data get in the way of a good rant.
Has there ever been a corporate or citizen's welfare program that has not been dropped as soon as the political tides turn in the US
Absolutely. Oil subsidies and tax breaks have persisted for decades through Democratic and Republican administrations. Same for tobacco subsidies, sugar subsidies, corn ethanol subsidies, etc. The mohair subsidy persisted for more than 70 years after it became completely pointless in 1945. The carried interest tax break for investment bankers famously just survived in Trump's big tax reform, despite his repeated promises during the campaign to eliminate it.
I could go on, and on, and on.
It is much harder to find the opposite: An example of corporate welfare that was actually ended.
subsidizes the manufacturing of American solar panels then the tariff effectively inflates the cost of a new solar panel in America. Sounds like a bum deal to me and it does to these guys too - https://www.wired.com/story/wh... Also bear in mind that while producing power through solar panels in America is heavily subsidized, the manufacturing of the solar panels is not. Forbes notes that solar production is heavily subsidized by the American tax payer. I'm sure that hurts some people's feelings but honestly I think anything that creates a real incentive for Americans to invest in real green technology should be labeled A Good Thing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/j...
You can have lots of low cost products available, and yet no one can afford to purchase them because no one has the money to spare - employment is so low that no disposable cash drives the economy.
I guess that's why unemployment in the USA is at 4% while in France it's 9%. Because the French are WAY more obsessed with eliminating workers to maximise profits. The USA is a socialist paradise in comparison.
hundreds of orders of magnitude
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
Tariffs only make sense if the Chinese government is subsidizing their solar panel manufacturing
They are. By allowing the environment to be screwed up and treating their workers like replaceable tools they have an effective subsidy over USA manufacturers. You can use cute words like "efficient" to describe it as much as you want but the reality is that the USA holds itself to certain standards and by not imposing tariffs on goods not imported to those standards the government policies effectively drive production offshore.
The only question is: Why are you limiting this to solar panels? Maybe if we got back to paying for things what they are worth if they were built in then the USA wouldn't be what it is now... a service industry.
On the other hand Japan is very successful, the world's third largest economy. It's still normal to employ people out of school until retirement there, and they tend to employ what the west would consider an excess of staff but which they consider assets.
In fact, companies that treat workers the way many western companies do, especially US companies in at-will states, are called "black companies" in Japan. They are regarded as basically scams, get-rich-quick schemes for their owners that you would avoid working for.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I do see a potential mixed bag:
a) The tariffs aren't in play, and Americans/others see this as a challenge to create a cheaper pv technology, likely by creating a better way to more cheaply produce existing pv technology.
b) The tariffs are in play, and the resulting higher prices in the marketplace provide an economic incentive to us to develop a significantly different, better pv technology.
Who cares where manufacturing happens except the manufacturers?
Only anyone who's studied history.
Chinese panels are cheaper because the poor working and living conditions of their people.
And because of currency manipulation.
Not anymore, it's been legal to export crude since 2016.
Low skill manufacturing jobs are worthless. Bringing those back helps nobody except the wealthy factory owners and keeps the workers permanently enslaved with zero chance of upward mobility.
So does that mean that Europeans should not buy anything from the US, because the US workers rights are lacking compared to the EU?
Do you only buy products from the EU as the US workers standard is not up to par to the best? Or are you just conveniently say that the standards where you are a good enough?
Just a question, what device do you type this on and how much did you pay for it?
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
What about American solar panel manufacturers?
What American solar manufacturers?
Protectionism has never saved an industry, let alone created one. Ever. If you make things more expensive to import it just means they'll be less of them bought.
It doesn't punish the Chinese in any meaningful way as there are plenty of customers. A photo voltaic panel will earn X yuan in profit no matter what. The only thing a tariff will do is make you pay a little more for it, so the only ones being punished by this tariff are the American people who now have to pay an additional tax on a product.
Aren't the Republicans the ones meant to be getting out of the way of commerce?
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Shielded, no. Put on a competitive field with subsidized Chinese products would be more accurate. It's not a competitive marketplace when one side has it's thumb on the scale.
Just another day in Paradise
"1. People are required by law to pay more for solar panels."
"2. This extra money goes to corporations that did nothing to earn it."
That's a complete misrepresentation. Yes, the prices will likely increase to where the competitive market should have been in the first place, and prevents China from dominating the market unfairly.
Just another day in Paradise
Depends on the tariff. Was the tariff put in place on a level playing field, or one in which a nation was subsidizing their industry in order to dominate it?
Just another day in Paradise
"Trump Administration Approves Tariffs of 30 Percent On Imported Washing Machines"
And where is the information about the already existing 150 tariffs that these two are going to be added to? Ah... it would spin quite as well that way now would it when we're looking at the actual facts. If we admitted there are already 150 existing tariffs and it hasn't completely flipped trade upside down, we couldn't as easily make it appear as though two additional tariffs would completely destabilize free trade with FUD.
We'll make great pets
Their plan was so obviously horrible that when they applied for a half-billion dollars the analysts could predict, to the month, when Solyndra would go bankrupt - so they denied their federally-secured loan application.
Nope. And you don't do your position any good by making up lies in hindsight to justify it. In fact, the whole problem with Solyndra was that traditional investors could not predict what would happen.
The entire point of the Energy Loan Program was to lose money. That's because it was specifically intended to make high-risk investments that risk-adverse lenders would not take on in order to kickstart the industry in general. Return on investment was not intended to be dollars, but innovative technology that will filter out to the entire industry, much like the way the US space program was a huge money loser but produced all kinds of technology spin-offs that were ultimately a massive positive for american business.
The reason lenders would not make loans to companies like Solyndra is that green-tech was an extremely new industry with little track-record for investors to refer to when calculating risk/reward. Essentially the Energy Loan Program was modeled on high-risk venture capital in silicon valley where they bet on 20 companies, fully expecting 19 to be money losers but that 20th one to hit it out of the park.
And guess, what? It worked better than anyone expected. Despite expecting to lose money, the Energy Loan Program has been turning a profit.
It reduces to 15% not 0
is there some reason 'single payer' healthcare coverage is better than 'employer paid' healthcare coverage?
If you believe in government having a hand in the most intimate facets of your life, telling you what you will and won't be paid for based on political whims, higher taxes, rationed services, being subject to idiotic things like government shutdowns, and customer service on par with your average DMV experience then single payer is a fantastic idea.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
When pricing solar, it's been my experience that installation costs stayed static as panel prices have gone down. The overall cost of an install that covers all my electrical needs has hardly varied. If panel prices go up, expect installation to go up to protect the margins installers have gotten used to.
Has there ever been a corporate or citizen's welfare program that has not been dropped as soon as the political tides turn in the US
Many.
Why can't you buy a compact pickup truck in the USA?
Because of the "Chicken Tax" instituted in 1963:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
China subsidizes everything they make in the form of lax environmental regulation and enforcement.
Who cares where manufacturing happens except the manufacturers?
People who work in manufacturing. People who invest in manufacturers. People who care about trade deficits.
Are we going to impose the same 30% tariff on imported coal-mining equipment?
That might be a good thing for the American heavy equipment manufacturers. It would encourage Caterpillar to make more equipment to be sold in the American market, in America.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
So even though you're exporting your filth to China, you're still the largest polluter in the Western world? Hmm...
[source: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/05/3...
The right... outraged whenever some kid in Macedonia wants a new bike.
Unemployed US citizens. That's who cares where manufacturing happens. And no, US citizens don't have to compete with Chinese workers on who will work the most for less money.
Chinese gov is subsidizing these companies and purposely dumping on Europe and America. Why? Because they want all manufacturing there. Just like they have massive tariffs on imported cars, esp EVs, while heavily subsidizing and dumping cars on foreign markets.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Seriously, O should have done more to stop what China is doing to manufacturing in.the west. And he should have done before China killed off 2/3 of our companies.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
What are u talking about? Nearly all innovation in solar and wind has happened in America. China steals the innovation, or buys the company here and shuts them down. Even now, top efficiency in solar remains in America.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Baloney. Protectionism saves industries when done right. Normally, you have to do it early before nations like China own it. However, China's huge economics growth over the 30 years is because other nations opened their borders, namely America, while China has one of the most closed borders.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
....why not 'U.S. Government'?
Give me a break. America is not exporting our jobs. China is stealing them. What you claim is like blaming a woman that is raped for wearing a knee-high dress, and saying it her fault. China dumps their pollution rather than clean up, while also dumping on the west. They have damaged European solar manufacturing badly, and America's worse. And if Chinese gov is not dumping on us, then why is Chinese gov mad about this?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Chinese gov has been subsidizing and dumping for ages.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Hey, how much foreign solar was allowed to be sold in China? NOT a single panel has ever been sold in China. Why not? Because China has a tariff that doubles the cost of the phone, even though Western panels have been.better.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
How come Tesla will not be selling their roof in China, but will sell in most other nations? Because China blocks foreign-made solar from being sold there.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Protectionism has never saved an industry, let alone created one. Ever.
Only a paid shill would glibly fire off such a giant crock of shit.
What part of "better than even chance" did you not understand?
OK, my bad, let's dumb it down a bit for you. If I say "there's a better than even chance that an ordinary 6-sided die will throw a 3 or higher", then you can't disprove that by throwing a 2.
Also, "better than even" may have involved a bit of hyperbole. But you have to admit that he does have serious issues distinguishing truth and fantasy, at the very least.
You really think that? That is absolutely, stunning. If low skilled manufacturing jobs are useless, then why is China have so many? No job is useless or worthless, and low skilled manufacturing jobs are all some people are qualified for.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
You are one sad little man aren't you. I'm not sure what has gotten you so fixated on stalking me around Slashdot with your homophobic rants but that is fine. Whatever floats your boat.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Who was the free market candidate in the 2018 general election for US president?
It's not clear to me and I think America is the one who is really paying for tariffs.
Look at the island of San Salvador. Which side has tariffs? The one Trump would describe as a dump hole: Haiti. Which one is more free market? The Dominican Republic.
Need I say more?
Why doesn’t all powerful and Omniscient Market take care of that?
That's like the difference between a trust fund kid and one who had to put himself through school. When one nation subsidizes their industry, it's not a market, it's unfair advantage, and needs to be dealt with.
Just another day in Paradise
"What American solar manufacturers?"
Solyndra. Oh, never mind.
Just another day in Paradise
Also, I can play your silly hypocritical game of words too. Here it goes: you cherry-picked 6 sentences, out of which the first 2 are wrong not because the inverse is true but because Mexico simply does not "send" people; people decide to flee from Mexico. As for the remaining 4 sentences, I'm pretty sure a huge majority of Mexican immigrants are not drug traffickers and the proportion of rapists will not even be that much higher than the general population because the economical immigrants outnumber the criminals fleeing the police by a large factor. And yes, *some* are definitely not good people; that's what his awful generalization is based on to start with.
All in all, I'm counting him as plain wrong on 3 accounts (2x "mexico sends" + the "rapists" thing) and as "misleading" on another one ("bringing drugs"; there surely is a problem with drugs coming from Mexico but the issue is largely separate from economical migration, and this is a blatant attempt to conflate the two).
TL;DR: for a cherry-picked statement purported to demonstrate Trump's truthfulness, this is a rather abysmal showing.
...well, if your employer happens to provide 'employer paid' coverage, you might feel comfortable making that argument. Even so, there are multiple forms of single payer insurance - and some provide a simpler, cheaper alternative to today's 'employer paid' policies - with their premiums, copayments, and limited provider networks.
Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
Logic and rational thought do not work on Republicans.
And the left doesn't stereotype....right?
Just another day in Paradise
Also, you import like 7-8 million barrels per day. It seems dumb to ship it back out again.
Hell, you didnt even read the summary. It is phased out over time. They will still be under pressure and the chinese will still be shipping solar panels to the US despite the tarrif.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Well, it covers everyone. And you can leave your job without having to worry about your health insurance going away.
Well in most countries the government is also a lot more rational. My country has never had a "government shutdown", for instance. The thought of filibustering a budget just to protect illegal migrants would be so insane it would never happen. Or running a trillion dollar deficit (even scaled to population).
But hey, enjoy your craziness. If y'all didn't have nukes it'd be a lot more fun to watch from the sidelines, though.
What is your evidence? Where are your peer-reviewed citations?
Why you have been providing my evidence and every demeaning remark you have made is subject to per-reviewed here. You are posting in a open forum for everyone to read. Every homophobic, every racist and demeaning remark you have made is here for everyone to read.
Your very remarks are my peer reviewed evidence that you are, indeed, a sad little man.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Trump is not a republican. Besides, politicians have other competing priorities over ensuring that society actually functions optimally. Remember, we are operating under a form of government invented by ancient goat herders.
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Republicans have been the party of fiscal irresponsibility since Reagan. They continually cut taxes and increase spending usually on the military leaving the next Democrat President to try and balance the budget. Of course the Democrat gets all the blame like Bill Clinton did closing all those army bases before leaving office with a balanced budget surplus which Bush Jr then turned back into a huge deficit causing Obama to try and clean up the mess and here we are again.
Of course Republicans do intend to balance the budget after tax cuts by eliminating government services like CHIP, and privatizing social security which already pays for itself if they wouldn't continually borrow from it, and a whole host of other social programs they believe the federal government shouldn't provide. Of course rather than having an honest debate about it they just cut taxes and then complain we don't have money for universal healthcare and welfare queens are draining the funds despite that old chestnut being repeatedly proven wrong.
Course it may sound like I'm beating up on Republicans, both sides are guilty of gerrymandering which manipulates the will of the people. Most of the issue with Democrats is that they are like herding cats, you can't ever get them to agree on anything. Not much has changed as they gave up on the government shutdown so we all went through the pain for nothing. Especially since Mitch McConnell has no intention of moving forward on DACA or any of the issues that Democrats would like put through. He is but a mouthpiece though for the party as whole. It amazes me when talking about DACA you have the whitehouse release a video talking about illegal immigrants are kill people which by definition aren't DACA people as you can't commit any crime and hold your status.
Well, he might have done.
For example, he could have left the planet taking 'us fools' with him (without the fools' knowledge?), extinguishing all life while not on it, and returned, again with the 'fools'....or some combination. It seems possible, literally.
That's one way I can see that 'literally' would be accurate. I would imagine there could be others.
Yes, it is very unlikely, but that's probability for you - if it isn't '0' or '1', it is possible.
Max.
So now the consumer can chose from solar panels made in the US (or Europe) with proper environmental controls, or no name solar panels made in China that dump a shit ton of real, nasty pollution into the water stream (and eventually the ocean) for essentially the same price.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/gree...
The only idiots who are bitching about this are the same fools who said nothing about Obama's tarrifs, and this is nothing more than a brainless Trump=bad, Obama=good stupidity, rather than looking objectively at the actual issue.
This is just the beginning. It is in our best interest to onshore and automate our manufacturing needs. We have turned China from a third world nation into the fastest growing economy with all the trade we gave them, and they turn around and cheat us with currency manipulation and are a bad actor looking to rule the world. They have stolen and copied virtually every piece of IP that was ever sent to China for manufacture, lets see how they do when we pull most of that back to the US and automate it and pocket the money in the US, leaving them with no IP to steal and nowhere to sell their cheap products.
If you disagree, please post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like
What you're talking about is "fair trade". It has its benefits and it has its detractors. Being me, I'm quick to point out the flaws in a system, and suggest improvement rather than abandonment.
Fair trade basically says the workers must be paid so much for their work, and the cost of a product must be so high. Coffee is often used as an example of why fair trade should be dumped for free trade: coffee growers mix shit-quality beans into decent beans because buyers are legally-required to pay a minimum rate, so there's no arbitration by selling high-quality beans and low-quality beans (the minimum rate is higher than the normal high-quality rate). I think we can do something to create the incentive of separation; I don't know what, but I'm willing to work on that problem before deciding.
I prefer free trade, and I see fair trade as a way to bridge. It's okay to protect your workers from a market collapse by sudden shifts in trade: lose those jobs slowly so people get carried by welfare, shifted around to jobs that use their skill, and obsoleted as folks retire and new workers decide to do anything else but that obsolete job. It's also okay to not profit quite as much from a poor but effective producer of a good so that you can help build a strong economy on their end. We should work toward removing the potential difference in the system so as to avoid risks of sudden shifts and economic shock.
Most fair-trade advocates--even unions--avoid suggesting fair trade as a way to blockade progress, because they don't believe in protectionism, and because they'd need to differentiate from protectionism anyway when making the fair trade argument. The above is kind of a wordy explanation of the natural conclusion of such a stance.
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The thought of filibustering a budget just to protect illegal migrants would be so insane it would never happen.
Yeah, it's kind of an artifact of the evolution of morality. Basically, people have become more-sensitive to moral issues such as breaking up families and uprooting lives, or sending people off to a place in which they'll likely face poverty, destitution, suffering, and death. Because most unauthorized immigrants are generally-harmless, well-integrated into our economy, and at extreme risk of humanitarian crisis if deported, people who have evolved higher morals tend to demand humane approaches to the situation instead of adherence to traditional values and nationalist xenophobia.
It's basically the same thing as accepting gay marriage, or rejecting arranged (forced) marriage as a valid social construct.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
I agree with your overall point, but you need to refine your thinking on the carbon cost of shipping. Container ships from china are so efficient the carbon footprint of shipping a container is about the same as a typical long-haul truck traveling halfway across the country. Here is some further reading.
Ironically, if you live near a port it is more eco-friendly to have something shipped from china than trucked from the other coast.
Man, you really need that seminar!
Nailed it exactly. Government Investment Loans are supposed to create industries where no investor is crazy enough or rich enough to take the risk -- on something with potentially HUGE benefits. NASA produced many industries and none of them alone would be worth the cost of NASA - it's size, risk and broad benefits were outside even the richest most crazy venture capitalist.
The USA politically couldn't invest in better manufacturing of OLD silicon solar tech (which was invented here...and NASA gets some credit for it's involvement.) The USA approach was to find something better. If you can't make good paying US jobs from it, then it may as well go to China. We'd not be so excited with all robot made silicon cells at Chinese prices-- at the same price but no significant local benefits; may as well let them do it. There is NO WAY Obama could have sold "lets make old solar dirt cheap by replacing human labor with robots." That would have produced the robot revolution sooner; which would have bigger impact than anything in history and been incredibly unpopular for generations.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
What will happen during Trump's presidency remains to be seen. In the first year we've seen economic growth, is anyone disputing that? Anyway, I think it's interesting to keep note of the headlines as times goes on.
Back in February 2017: "Trump is upset the media is not reporting a meaningless statistic about the national debt" https://www.washingtonpost.com...
In January 2018: "December US budget deficit shrinks to $23.2 billion" https://wtop.com/national/2018...
I don't claim to know the future, but looking at the past it seems like people's concerns re: this president have been pretty overblown. I will watch impartially as the story unfolds.
Tesla makes their solar roof products in Buffalo, NY.
On the other hand Japan is very successful, the world's third largest economy. It's still normal to employ people out of school until retirement there, and they tend to employ what the west would consider an excess of staff but which they consider assets.
In fact, companies that treat workers the way many western companies do, especially US companies in at-will states, are called "black companies" in Japan. They are regarded as basically scams, get-rich-quick schemes for their owners that you would avoid working for.
That all works for the Japanese because they are Japanese with a Japanese culture and society which are radically different than most other Western nations. It's the same sort of disconnect when comparing socialist Norwegian nation's economies, healthcare systems, etc, to the US. Totally different societies and cultures. Apples & oranges.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
I'm not a fan of Hillary because she doesn't take personal responsibility.
I don't like Bill's TANF program. Besides general administrative flaws, it's a program built to end welfare by putting people to work. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of economics and welfare. We need our burger flippers, our grocery baggers, and the tens of millions of other low-paid, low-skilled workers--and we'll still need them after the dust settles from the upcoming new technology wave we're naming "automation". They're going to be poor, struggling, and otherwise facing economic difficulty; and minimum wage won't fix that. We need stronger policies to carry people.
Even that ignores the economic reality of unemployment due to demand-side markets.
Welfare, in part, protects people from these problems. It helps people who are just in a situation where yes, you're going to be poorer. It changes the situation so that no, you're not going to be deep in the bowels of poverty; you're going to be okay, you're going to get by easy enough, but that guy who got a slightly-nicer job and is "middle class" by the barest definition has way more luxury than you.
Systems I want to build help to produce both welfare and equity, making it easier to move up into the middle-class while also creating that strong basis of support. That's the point. Mine also reduce taxes, which is ... interesting... okay I'm a giant fiscal nerd.
Beyond all that, however, I'm generally more of a Bill Clinton or Tony Blair type--even on these very issues--yet more-progressive than the OurRevolution and Fight For $15 folks. I'm operating on a different political dimension here--or at least with future tech. Who is fighting for a growth-based minimum wage or a universal dividend today? Hell, who is trying to rewrite 29 USC 164(b) to prohibit right-to-work laws? Someone finally decided to suggest that last one (I'm late to the party), but the rest is more keeping the poor as poor as ever, avoiding strong welfare, and complaining about the economy.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
Depends on the tariff.
How?
Was the tariff put in place on a level playing field, or one in which a nation was subsidizing their industry in order to dominate it?
The field is never level. China is better at manufacturing panels than the US, in part at least, because they were quicker to realise that Climate change wasn't a time travelling zombie conspiracy. And in part because because they are better at manufacturing in general. You can bemoan the reasons why, or you can try to be competitive, or you can find industries where you are better than the Chinese, and encourage those.
As for subsidies, that's kinda the point. Had the US subsidised the manufacturing of panels 15 years ago when the market was little, then perhaps they would have enough IP and a solid base that allowed them to compete. But no, they chose to consider the opportunity a risk, and continued to subsidise the burning of coal. Panels bad/burning coal good and so on. So the result is exactly what we would expect to happen.
Which one is he trust fund kid in this case? The US coal industry?
Questions:
Where are Elon's Solar Tiles manufactured?
Where is SunPower (one of the most efficient [when I last looked] cell makers) based?
I suspect both in the USA. If so then possibly levelling the playfield might be in order.
Don't get me wrong, I hate Trump more than most but even a broken clock...
Yup, it's like when Apple puts "Designed in California" on all their super expensive, shiny iThings. They can't actually claim made in America, so they use weasel words to try to imply something like it without technically lying or engaging in false advertising claims.
Or like I've seen with some other companies, they'll claim assembled in America or some other meaningless bullshit. Sure, all the parts were created in China for 10% of American labor costs, but when it's shipped too the American warehouse, there's 1 piece that isn't assembled yet. So they can claim assembled in America!
But hey, enjoy your craziness. If y'all didn't have nukes it'd be a lot more fun to watch from the sidelines, though.
Yes, because Russia, China, India, Pakistan, Iran, and North Korea are such rational, non-crazy countries with benevolent, freedom-loving governments who also have nukes. Face it: the USA's nukes are the least threatening to the world. We've had them since 1945 and we had them first. If we wanted to use them in anger after Hiroshima/Nagasaki we would have by now.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
Basically, people have become more-sensitive to moral issues
Some people are still sensitive about this thing called the "rule of law." You know, where laws are made and people are expected to follow them? And don't hand me the "but it's a bad law" argument. It may very well be "bad law" but the proper recourse is to change the law not legalize the defiance of it.
The practice of the government turning a blind eye to which laws it will or won't enforce is an extremely slippery slope. The whole "it's illegal but go ahead and do it because we don't want to enforce the law" engenders disrespect for law and law enforcement. It also opens the possibility -- as we're now seeing -- of the government deciding to enforce the law.
We have a method to easily change law in this country. It's called a "ballot box." If you want the law to be different, convince enough people to elect representatives that will change it. If you are unable to do so, the new law isn't acceptable. It's that simple.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
I care where the manufacturing happens. The Chinese are very far behind on their environmental regulations, not mention worker rights.
Good thing then that Trump is working hard to get them ahead in both regards, eh?
Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
I mean, you're both right. No it's not a subsidy. Yes, the extra cost of solar panels (for those people who still buy from china) will go to the federal government. Yes, it means more people will buy American. Yes, they'll be paying more. Yes, it's corporate welfare. Yes it discourages switching to solar. Yes, it promotes US solar panel production.
They didn't really earn it... other than by "being American" and adhering to OSHA and EPA regulation. ...and pay US taxes? (Ha, that's silly US corporations don't pay taxes!). As for ethanol, heeey, it did it's job. We manage to make an alternative to oil. Woooo! But it turns out during the big squeeze leading up to (or causing) the financial crash, everyone invested into all sorts of alternatives and fracking gave us cheap gas again. While we suck out the last drops out of dry wells. So ethanol isn't really needed. At the moment.
All this said, I don't think 4 years is really enough time for any US manufacturer to wade into the market. So it's really just a sweetheart kiss to the existing manufacturers. Or life support. I dunno the state of the industry. But in general tariffs and barriers to free trade is just slitting your own throat.
It applies to US produced polysilicon shipped over there.
The Chinese want a monopoly on PV panels and the entire supply chain, and to that end anything goes. Daqo gets free electricity for one example.
China's tariff on American polysilicon was imposed in retaliation for American tariffs on Chinese solar cells and modules. Prior to 2013, the US actually had a trade surplus of quite a few billion dollars with China on the basis of the massive amount of polysilicon shipped to Chinese customers; since the US imposed tariffs on Chinese solar products and China retaliated, China has gotten the upper hand on the trade deficit (and found the motivation to learn how to make pretty good polysilicon pretty cheap).
Any evidence for Daqo getting free electricity? I'm familiar with them in a way that few people are and I've seen no evidence of such.
Common knowledge, the Chinese want that NW corner of the country more settled, so they built a hydroelectric station and offered free power to any company that set up a plant there. GCL is moving a plant there too. There is no way you can make poly with a Seimens reactor for $8 a kg without free electricity.
You might also consider the amount of the tariffs. The ones you allude too were much less than 59% they put on polysilicon. You might also compare this to the way they took over the rare earth market. Same plan, simple, and it works, provided you can absorb the losses where driving the competition out of business. See also, Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel, and any number of railroad barons from the 19th century.
Who pays for tariffs? Yeah, it's you and me, the people who buy refrigerators and solar panels. It's our prices that are going to go up. Whirlpool and other US manufacturers will profit, because they will get to raise their prices thanks to the tariffs. You and I, not so much.
That's difficult because we've all been living in a simulation since the day Trump did it for the first time. Someone has to get out to check the actual records for that.
Ezekiel 23:20
Nearly all innovation in solar and wind has happened in America.
Hahahahaha...are you on drugs? :-p
Ezekiel 23:20
First off, hanwha's work has been just in the last year. They had very little prior.
And you are going to claim that a report on Echolon FROM 2001 lead to America's dominance in a field that WE CREATED, and have spent the most money EACH YEAR? Seriously?
You really are 1 fucked up individual if you think that Echolon is what lead to Americans dominance in this?
We no longer dominate in manufacturing of solar, but that was because of CHina's cheating at this. Subsidizing, dumping, manipulating their money, etc. BUT, R&D in it still remains dominantly in America.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
BTW, this is what you SHOULD be reading, not such other BS from 20 years ago
It explains how CHina grabbed manufacturing FROM THE WEST, and how to get it back
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Some people are still sensitive about this thing called the "rule of law." You know, where laws are made and people are expected to follow them?
Congress has no enforcement power over immigration; it has authority over that, but isn't the executive.
Congress has authorized the executive limited enforcement powers over immigration. This authorization does not prohibit enforcement in certain situations; it also does not require the executive to carry out enforcement in any specific time frame.
That means there isn't a law saying the executive must remove illegal immigrant ASAP; there is a law authorizing the executive to remove illegal immigrants. There's actually a law authorizing the President to deport hostile and dangerous immigrants, and laws restricting legal immigrant residency.
It's interesting, because the Attorney General has the authorization and duty(!) to protect the borders by many means (prevent illegal entry), particularly if he believes a mass influx is imminent; little is actually said about removal. What's actually hilarious, though, is that an illegal alien who has been deported and shows up illegally again can be... fined or imprisoned. Yes, that's right: fined or imprisoned, if they were thrown out and came back.
We have a giant chapter in title 8 about preventing, managing, and enforcing immigration, and it's filled with three things: border protection authority; matters of issuing authorization for immigrants; and fines and imprisonment mainly for people who transport, harbor, or employ unauthorized immigrants. There's a line somewhere else in the code that says the President can have them thrown out of the country if he wants.
We have a method to easily change law in this country. It's called a "ballot box."
You need a representative who will change the law accordingly, though; and you need a majority of representatives (not just Americans) who will go along with it. It's the "will" part that's hard.
The "will" part has been going on for DACA since GW Bush. Congress never got around to it, and the President had largely let ICE be somewhat lax (by way of focusing on border control); then Obama gave instruction to essentially implement the DREAM Act on which Congress couldn't agree on the fiddly bits, and everybody forgot about it for a while. Civil disobedience is actually sometimes part of the legislative process, although that's not exactly the case this time--that's more a thing with sanctuary cities.
Speaking of sanctuary cities, I intend to push legislation allowing local sanctuary governments to keep their immigrants if they properly detain them (same as anyone else: if you routinely let rowdy kids back out after they cool off, fine; but don't dump immigrants on the street just for being immigrants) and they house them in the new form of restorative prisons designed to humanely rehabilitate prisoners.
This will help push criminal justice reform, as well as improve relationships between ICE, Homeland Security, and these local governments. I expect they will prefer to house "suspected terrorists" under investigation themselves when detained (because of a fear of human rights violations by DHS), and that's okay, as long as they keep them detained; and with this new type of prison, they should end up deradicalizing them if they're more at-risk than actively radicalized.
My constituency happens to support sanctuary cities and DACA--well, most of them. The concerns of the detractors are valid, of course; these proposals address that, albeit not to their liking. It will have the secondary effect of cutting back crime in our state (and America as a whole), however, which is immense--and everybody agrees on that one. I look forward to this election so I can actually stand up and drive the change America needs, instead of sitting on the sidelines talking about it as our current representative.
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One of the largest expenses in manufacture of solar panels in the U.S. is the safe handling and disposal of the toxic chemicals produced during manufacture of solar panels. Yep, we would have 30% cheaper panels if we didn't give a hoot what was done with the toxins left over from manufacture.
NRRPT/RCT
First off, hanwha's work has been just in the last year. They had very little prior.
Except that Q.Cells, the German innovator that Hanwha bought, was established in 1999. And that's hardly the only non-American company involved in the staggering progress of the last two decades. Just the one geographically closest to me that I'm aware of.
in a field that WE CREATED
Really?
and have spent the most money EACH YEAR?
That claim likewise appears very dubious. Germany having twice the US capacity in 2006 means that at some time, US must have spent less. That's simple calculus. (Either that, or you spent indeed the most but with weak results, which wouldn't be exactly a step up from the former.)
BUT, R&D in it still remains dominantly in America.
That sounds more like wishful thinking than reality. If that were true, I'd still expect US-based manufacturers to be more competitive on the global market. After all, the very purpose of R&D is to improve your products' chances on the market, by improving performance and lowering costs. Yet in practice, American creations such as SunPower are DOA on foreign markets. Around here, you'd have to be bribed to buy them. Even the 100% German stuff is way cheaper.
Ezekiel 23:20
Except over the last 5-ish years US OIL production has GREATLY increased. To the point the US is the largest hydrocarbon producing country in the world. I don't think solar panels exactly were killing them even with discounts.
Our oil production vs consumption gap has nearly closed recently as well. Wind and solar combined has hit about 10% of the total US energy production..so the overall impact of making US producers competitive with government sponsored manufacturers with lax regulation factors out to about a 3% delta, which is actually creating jobs and income for Americans.
You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
Only an idiot sees that as investment.
And no, America did NOT invest into fossil fuels. As the article said, it was Americas research that China was grabbing. IOW, it was OUR investment.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
LOL.
First off, the discission is about Solar Panels, not wind. BUT, since you brought it up. Germany has contributed very little R&D to SOlar OR Wind Turbines.
US and Denmark are the 2 main developers of wind turbines all the way up until 2000
And here we see that America developed not only first solar cell, but also into the production of it starting in 1953 forward.
And even more we see that Germany contributed little to nothing in this realm
Now, I realize that eveybody wants to be proud of their nation, but to claim that Germany had much to do with either wind turbines or solar cells is a joke.
And as an American with real relatives still in Scotland AND Germany, I am happy to see Europe do good things.
BUT, facts are facts. Unlike an idiot over here, I do not believe in Alternative facts.
In terms of money, America has WAY outspent Germany and even Europe on R&D dealing with AE.
Your pointing to wind turbines that have gone up has NOTHING to do with R&D, which is EXACTLY what I spoke of.
And the reason why America lost our manufacturing was due to the SA link that I produced. Basically, China targeted BOTH Germany and America, since they are still in a cold war with the west.
The one good news is that Musk is making America strong again in all of these things.
America is now the #1 developer of EVs, and shortly the #1 manufacturer of EVs.
Likewise, with this tariff, I think that Solar City/Tesla will jump way ahead of Chinese manufacturing, though in Germany, you appear to be giving up the ghost.
And as to an earlier statement about Tesla sending solar panels to China, just because they show a china pix, does not mean that it will happen. China continues to block any and all foreign makers of solar from entering into THEIR nation, though they dump on all others, including Germany and America.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
The bailouts to wealthy wall-street bankers who celebrated with an orgy of bonuses and spending and *postponed* a depression.
FTFY
Only an idiot thinks that this is a subsidy to Tesla.
Chinese gov will simply increase their subsidies to solar companies and drop their panels to 30% below Solar City's.
Now, Solar Cities is actually one of the cheapest on the planet. With a second plant, they should be even cheaper.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Maybe he is preparing to enter in solar business. He won't be a president for ever. Hotel business already sucks.