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Washington Bill Makes It Illegal To Sell Gadgets Without Replaceable Batteries (vice.com)
Jason Koebler writes: A bill that would make it easier to fix your electronics is rapidly hurtling through the Washington state legislature. The bill's ascent is fueled by Apple's iPhone-throttling controversy, which has placed a renewed focus on the fact that our electronics have become increasingly difficult to repair.
Starting in 2019, the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
Starting in 2019, the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
What's "reasonable"?
Passionately Indifferent
I cannot think of a single faucet of life, a human endeavor, or anything that we might seek to do, accomplish, or perform that isn't made better by legislation and governmental control and regulation.
This sort of legislation should be common sense. We should be far past the point where we quibble about having politicians telling engineers what to do - that should be already settled. And the tragedy is that while we wast time on these no brainers, we could well be legislating the core problems: mathematics and physics, human nature and belief systems. That's where there's real work to be done!
pacemakers? You really want to replace the battery in that? Yourself?
They say that it needs to be replaceable by an 'independent repair provider'. So not by yourself, but by someone presumably trained and familiar with the device, but not necessarily associated with the original manufacturer.
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So I can pay the manufacturer, or pay someone else, but can't do it myself? Not sure I really see the improvement there....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
"NEW SECTION. Sec. 5. (1) Nothing in this section applies to 30 motor vehicle manufacturers, any product or service of a motor 31 vehicle manufacturer, or motor vehicle dealers." Cars and tractors are still not included. Still got to go through the dealer for service.
One of my favorites was LittleFuse fuses, in the Mouser catalog. They were little metal cans with two leads on the bottom. Replacing them meant unsoldering both leads, simultaneously, while pulling the slippery little can from the other side of the circuit board.
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/0268005V?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsNIlwy3aAdUWh9r0twYGK%252bMKefF0AnsJE%3d
There was no good excuse for these things: I replaced them with ordinary leaded fuses every chance I got.
You were always allowed to do that work yourself. This is regarding the sales of parts and technical specs. If you break your pacemaker it's on you.
Yeah, good luck with that. "reasonable"...ie: politicians way of telling the unwashed masses, that we did something, but on the other hand giving a wink & a nod to their business buddies that "we slickered em again".
The last time this came up on Slashdot, the objection to forcing replaceable batteries was that having fixed batteries allows for unusual battery shapes and less concern regarding seals so that engineers can design thinner phones.
You know what? Not good enough. If it's so important to have such a thin phone, then the manufacturers need to be required by law to take back their product at the end of its life cycle and REcycle.
I'd argue this would be an expensive but good idea anyway, because 'the environment' isn't just a thing for tree-huggers, we all need it.
You're not smart enough to make an informed decision yourself!
You can't decide whether a completely waterproof design is worth having a non-replaceable battery!
We're the government! And we know what's best for you!
Now, pay a ludicrous tax on your soda, and no, you can't have a drinking straw!
Try easily replacing the battery in an iPhone, iPad, Kindle, MacBook, etc.
#DeleteFacebook
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FTB (from the Bill):
2) "Digital electronic product" means a handheld or portable electronic device containing a microprocessor and flat panel computer monitor originally manufactured for distribution and sale in the United States for general consumer purchase. Digital electronic product includes but is not limited to smartphones, electronic reading devices, laptop computers, and tablets.
So no, it will not outlaw musical greeting cards... unless they come with a flat panel monitor. It seems like it will also not outlaw medical or industrial devices, as it says "for general consumer purchase".
Why does the government have to limit my choice?
"You can't buy something without a replaceable battery! WE SAID SO!!!!"
I want an iPhone that runs on AA batteries. It will run for days and recharge by just replacing the batteries.
I do miss the Nextel. On my desk I had a line of batteries and chargers. Just pop in a new one. Instant recharge.
-- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
Because American consumers are no longer functionally capable of not consuming. They can't speak with their wallets and simply not buy an iPhone, that's too hard.
If having a non-replaceable battery was key to making devices waterproof, why do the majority of action cameras have replaceable batteries?
(Some) people may know their phone is not repairable. However, they do not consider the environmental cost since the cost is passed on to the rest of the world. This is exactly the kind of situation where you need government intervention. To fix a market failure.
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The bill is barely about how things have to be designed. That just happens to be the one very small part of the bill that TFA picked up on. Mainly the bill is about not allowing OEMs to shut out independent repair shops by hoarding parts and repair manuals. I.e. the bill is mostly about compelling OEMs to share info and parts with independent shops at a reasonable cost.
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Oh, *NOW* you want replaceable batteries when your precious iphone craps out. Where was this bill when the save files in my SNES cartridges started vanishing?!
I know this was intended as a bit of a joke post, but SNES cart batteries are actually reasonably replaceable. They're just normal coin cells in a holder. Though to be fair the battery is typically soldered to the holder. But the holder is not near any critical components or pathways, so unless you have terrible hand tremors it's not hard to remove with low risk. Source: I have replaced them using my rudimentary electronics skills. The most annoying part of it is having to order a special screwdriver bit to open the carts.
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pacemakers? You really want to replace the battery in that? Yourself?
The definition of "Electronic Device" in the bill includes having a screen, and being for sale to the general consumer. I know of zero pacemakers that meet that definition.
Hey, Slashdotters, stop bitching about "reasonable". The US Constitution uses the term "due process" for the 5th and 14th amendments. Yeah, wish that were a little less vague, but it kind of works.
...
It does?!?!?
Tell that to the US citizens "unmasked" after the Obama administration turned the NSA and the FBI into Hillary!'s campaign worker bees.
Normally I am not all about passing all kinds of additional laws, but we should have the right to repair our own devices, especially if we are capable of doing it. Apple is not the only bad guy here. I can name ZTE, LG, and Samsung as also guilty of this.
Apple will just argue that iPhones sold under the "upgrade"program where you turn it in for a new phone every year or 2 are not actually "sold", but rather leased and therefore this bill does not apply to them.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Are you going to repair a one-use $2 greetings card? Likely not. It would be considered disposable.
Are you going to consider a $700 iPhone disposable? Likely not.
As such, the definition would be quite simple to lay down.
However, every gadget I buy seems to have a replaceable battery. Huawei 4G Wifi Router? Check. $20 GPS tracker for my car? Check. $20 in-car dashcam? Check. $10 Blueooth keyboard/trackpad? Check. XBox controllers? Check.
Pretty much if it has a battery, I can replace it. Even my phones (because I'm not an idiot and didn't want to buy one without a replaceable battery having bought replacement batteries for all the phones I've ever owned, and which ALL still work).
In fact, all of them even seem to use standardised batteries, which is even nicer. They're all just bog-standard phone batteries.
In fact, even in single-use disposable cards, I can't imagine why you wouldn't make the battery replaceable. Almost all the ones I've ever seen have a tiny button or coin cell in there. It's easy and cheaper than soldering the things in place.
Like anti-lock braking? Turn signals? Seat belts? How it this stupid?
love is just extroverted narcissism
"...Original manufacturers of digital electronic products sold on or after January 1, 2019, in Washington state are prohibited from designing or manufacturing digital electronic products in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove...."
None of the phone makers do this. As it is now, their batteries are not permanently affixed, nor are they difficult or impossible to remove. You can see this for yourself by the copious self-repair videos on Youtube.
So. What does this bill accomplish?
In addition, all it does is require manufacturers to make available manuals, parts, etc. to independent repairers for the same price as made available to its own outlets. What prevents the manufacturer from charging $1M for the manual?
These pieces of legislation are pointless and just symbolic.
I imagine that if you were to hold a pacemaker, obviously not while it is in you, the battery would be replaceable. Plus now they are developing pacemakers that can be powered internally. I see what you're getting at, and it should be defined well, but we know that is unlikely.
Are Ink cartridges next? Come on, HP/Cannon/Brother et all, cannot seriously think those things cost that much to make.... Shall we make it illegal to create a printer that detects third party or refilled cartridges and refuses to use them?
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
Of those three, none were invented by governments, and only two are required by law.
More to the point, the two were required for safety reasons, not for convenience.
Hopefully laptops are included too.
I agree that all devices should be repairable (by the end user, even!).
But this should not be law.
It should be up to the customers to decide what devices they want and with what features or anti-features.
Because innovation is always a trade off: want a slim phone? Well you'll have to sacrifice some durability to get it etc..
So it should be up to the customers to decide what a good trade off is.
I'll second that. My waterproof Camera has a replaceable Battery AND SD card !!! And a bunch of cable access ports (USB etc).
It's simply equipped with a Waterproof Door !! I carry several batteries with me to swap during the day and charge them at night.
Same with my waterproof Watch -- the back screws off and has a gasket. Which I have to open every 8 years to replace the battery.
Other things that have difficult to remove batteries:
Laptop battery modules (not just Apple's, but every manufacturer)
Electric hand tools (drills, saws, etc)
Rechargable battery packs (think ANKER)
Electric shavers
That little BB-8 remote control toy.
It's not that the batteries are glued in those devices, but sometimes you can't even open them without destroying the case. Many times, they just have a plain old 18650 in there anyway.
AC is right, you know.
If you can choose between at least two people to do it, they are likely to compete on price, to your benefit. This prevents a monopoly on repairs.
People who live in glass houses shouldn't walk and text.
What's needed is a set of standard batteries, to be able to independently buy/replace batteries from any vendor. The batteries of the LG G3 and LG G4 are basically the same (same voltage, same amperage), but the form factors differ by a millimeter or two, making them impossible to exchange.
Cars and dealer only software what will this bill do to that?
It depends on how 'gadgets' is defined. Consumer electronics should not only be serviceable and have replaceable batteries, the batteries should be replaceable by the consumer without needing to take the device in for service.
I should also be able to remove the tubes and take them down to the local pharmacy and try them in the tube tester.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
It took me about 15 minutes to replace an "unreplaceable" iphone battery and the kit came with all the tools for 25USD.
It's fine if you don't like it. Just don't buy it. Why are Americans so bent on needing laws to prohibit anything they don't like even if they're not subject to it?
Also note, this law does nothing to the auto industry. My understanding from all the voices chattering on about owners' rights is that they're the prime offenders. So why is this getting high praise? A phone with a reasonably replaced battery and all the tools needed to do it for less than the cost of a single month's cell plan versus highly inflated parts prices (due to monopoly abuse) plus minimum mechanic fees for an object that costs tens of thousands of dollars.... I wonder who was bought here.
By that wording it includes car dashboards. I hope that sticks.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
It's an obviously valid safety issue. This is a necessary correction for deficiencies in the market.
Now, if only we can get real reset buttons on our computers again. And the old disk activity light wouldn't be a bad idea either.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
> Why does the government have to limit my choice?
To protect everyone else who is not an idiot. That's why.
I feel sorry for you that the stupid government doesn't allow you to buy toasters that burn down your house. Or drugs that poison you. Or foods that make you sick. It's such a shame really. But if you put your mind to it, I'm sure you can find ways to burn down your house, poison yourself or make yourself sick despite the nanny government trying to protect the rest of us from being f***ked by corporations.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
" the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider." Would that include all the Home Theater equipment out there that is designed to be thrown away, not repaired? I have been repiaring audio gear for over 40 years. Since the advent of Home Theater scenarios, most of the junk available is not worth repairing, even if it CAN be repaired. Will that be covered under the bill?
Emissions regulations are not for safety, and non-replaceable batteries wasteful and bad for the environment.
love is just extroverted narcissism
When the government has to regulate things it is generally because the corporations brought it on themselves.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Yep, a few years ago I bought just such a card for my wife and my kids loved it so much they drained the battery, On a whim I cut into the circuit board and found it had a basic hearing aid battery held in by a metal clip connector. I bought a 5 pack of batteries and went through three of the five batteries before the kids got tired enough of it to let us toss the now very ragged remains of the card.
I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
We're looking at you.
Have gnu, will travel.
I predict curved screens will be the next big thing, then.
My first program:
Hell Segmentation fault
People know what they're getting into when they buy a phone.
LOL no they don't, most people are dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to technology, all they know is it's shiny and new and they can play Candy Crush (or whatever) and watch movies on it, they have no idea what's under the hood and they give little-to-no thought as to whether the battery can be replaced or not or anything else service-related. Besides which do you think marketers want people to care about things like that? Hell no, marketers want people to throw the thing away in a year and buy a brand new one regardless of whether it's dying or not.
Righhhht. Like how bad repairs at independent car repair shops have totally ruined the reputation of manufacturers... /sarcasm
Cars and dealer only software what will this bill do to that?
Nothing. There's a specific line in the bill exempting automobiles from these rules.
A removable battery is a perfectly valid safety issue warranting legislation when the market is deficient. It's pretty basic, like requiring brake lights on a car.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
All mass produced electronics products should be designed to be disassembled, recycled, re-purposed. That we don't have an international commitment to this is sufficient proof our species deserves extinction.
...but c'mon. Nanny-state much? CAPITALISM, people, depends on the consumers to 'drive from behind' basically.
Ultimately, as consumers, we have a CHOICE. Call it an economic vote, if you will.
If you buy a phone with a non-replaceable battery, that's YOUR decision. If you're surprised by that, you didn't even do the simplest amount of thinking about your purchase. If you're not surprised by that but you don't like that, shut the fuck up. You bought it. You validated that company's design choice.
If you don't like it, buy another phone. There are still many out there. The more people who make that choice, more mfg will be incentivized to provide such models.
-Styopa
Just uttering the phrase "Apple's pacemakers" contributes to the total annual number of heart attacks... stop it!
Someone had to do it.
The calculator I ordinarily use has a solar battery that I'd have no ability to replace at all if it ever died (never mind the fact that I will probably die before the battery does)... is this bill suggesting that such devices would not be legal to sell anymore?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
So does that mean EV's (which have a screen and being for sale to consumers) will have to have user replaceable LiPo battery packs?
No, but your health care provider does. They don't want to have to pay monopoly prices for a battery either.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
Cortana already has my heart. Might as well make it official.
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So, tell us how nonreplaceable batteries burned your hose down, poisoned you, and made you sick. That's got to be a good story.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
To translate this, "American consumers don't do what I want them to do."
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
So what I'm hearing is that the government should issue design parameters for products.
They already do.
You can't sell a toaster which catches fire.
You can't sell a skilsaw which gives the user electric shocks.
You can't sell food chock full of dioxins.
You can't sell a car which doesn't pass crash tests.
You can't build a gas station without a whole lot of things to prevent ground water contamination.
You can't sell a widget that shits all over the RF spectrum and interferes with other people.
And so on and so forth.
That's stupid.
Except its not. Almost every aspect of product regulation is because perviously too many companies sold something damaging because it was cheaper to do so than not.
This is the same. It's cheaper and easier for companies to make phones which are more disposable, and in that way they get to socialise the costs because the price of disposal doesn't refelct the true cost.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
On the one hand, being able to get a battery for a product that is no longer being manufactured e.g. 3DR Solo quadcopter would be a good thing. On the other hand, legislation like this means that nobody will be able to make any money on batteries except the manufacturer of the cells which could mean that nobody will make replacements for something like the 3DR Solo quadcopter because you can't make any money on them.
Starting in 2019, the bill would ban the sale of electronics that are designed "in such a way as to prevent reasonable diagnostic or repair functions by an independent repair provider. Preventing reasonable diagnostic or repair functions includes permanently affixing a battery in a manner that makes it difficult or impossible to remove."
You realize this would make something like a pacemaker technically illegal under this wording...
There are some things you don't actually want anyone but the manufacturer messing with. (Phones not among them obviously)
Well, if you get so mad that you can't replace them that you bite one, it can do all three.
When someone says, "Any fool can see
I don't see how this is targeted at Apple iPhones. Every iPhone made to date has a battery that is replaceable not just by independent repair shops, but also by end users themselves equipped with cheap kits from places like iFixit. For $25 (5 less than the temporary reduced price from Apple for battery replacement) I get everything I need to replace my iPhone 6S batter in this kit, and don't have to deal with the hassle of getting to an Apple store, scheduling appointment, having them tell me battery is not in stock and to come back, etc.
https://www.ifixit.com/Store/i...
My understanding is tax law is written such that electronics are expected to be replaced every three years. If a battery can last that long (my iPhone 6s did), I'm not sure how this could be enforced.
If you want a phone with a replaceable battery, then buy one. The non-replaceable battery of iPhone is a well-known design decision. My opinion is the government should stay out of this.
"Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
Phones with replaceable batteries are still on sale today, but most people don't realize it because they are usually a bit bigger and therefore are very unpopular. This is a thing everyone seems to ignore every time we talk about phones with batteries that can't easily be replaced: You have a choice already, you made it, claiming you were ignorant of your options does not justify a law to take away the option most people prefer. And yes, most people do prefer phones with batteries that can't be replaced because they don't like the bulky replaceable batteries.
Slashdot is always full of people saying we should vote with our wallets. We did, replaceable batteries lost.
So does that mean EV's (which have a screen and being for sale to consumers) will have to have user replaceable LiPo battery packs?
No, there's a later exemption for automobiles. And even if it didn't have that exemption, it doesn't say it has to be user replaceable, just "reasonably" replaceable. And given the rest of the text of the bill, that suggests reasonably replaceable by an independent repair shop.
"we have to make it thinner"
This is DECADES too late. I've been livid about it for decades, as have other people not mired in selfishness. Those people mired in selfishness include most of our elected leaders and virtually all corporate executives. This bill probably won't pass - for the usual reasons - and even if it did it only affects ONE state of ONE nation. It needed to be a global prohibition in place decades ago.
So if you want a replaceable battery.... buy a phone with a replaceable battery. How hard is that?
I hope this passes because I don't live in WA and I want to laugh at the fallout. Will Apple design a whole new iPhone just for one state? If so perhaps they'll just make it twice as thick. That would be fun.
Or just stop selling it there? I don't know what the expected result is, but I doubt reality will match anybody's expectations.
I'll also be curious to see how many other products are caught in the crossfire. Medical devices? Safety devices? I have tools with non-replaceable batteries. There will be a whole new class of illegal products.
If there is one thing I want my government deciding, it's product design. /sarcasm
When it comes to gov't interference in products I want 3 things... 1) Make sure it's safe. 2) Make sure it's fit for purpose. 3) Don't allow companies to prevent me from doing whatever I want with their product.
When I say "make sure it's safe" I don't mean "make sure idiots don't kill themselves using it." I don't need a sticker on the back of my phone saying "warning, do not attempt to eat this device". I mean I want them to set guidelines to make sure products aren't designed in such a way that they pose unnecessary risks during normal use.
And the fit for purpose part, all I ask is that companies aren't allowed to advertise something that a product doesn't do. If I buy something advertised as a toaster, it better toast things.
#3 is a a fine line where regulation like this may be of some use. No, I don't want the government telling Apple they are required to make the batteries on their phones replaceable. What I do want them to do is require Apple to sell the tools and parts necessary to replace such things, if they are able to be replaced. Again, a fine line. They should not be required to make parts replaceable, but if they are replaceable they need to make the parts (and tools) available to the end user at a reasonable cost.
I dunno what the hate is, I replaced the battery on my iPhone 5S a couple times. It was relatively doable for something that you'd only do once a year at most. Are Androids even worse?
My biggest grief is trying to find a battery that I had confidence in... unfortunately, in Canada, the options are even more limited than in the US. I would have gladly paid $15 for an Energizer or Duracell branded replacement battery than the random $8 generic I got from eBay.
It's just Washington state. What a disappointment. It will probably only result in residents having to buy phones exclusively online, and will mean nothing at all for the rest of us.
As a Libertarian, I shouldn't like this bill ..... but I do.
So, if someone violates this law in Washington state and sells an electronic product without a replaceable battery, what sort of punishment is appropriate? Hanging? Imprisonment for 5 years? For 25 years? Life, no possibility of parole?
Or to put it in different terms: is it about as serious as parking without feeding the meter? Bank robbery? Mugging? Drunk and disorderly? One count of first degree murder? Bribing a legislator to introduce well-intentioned but stupid-ass legislation?
These are not rhetorical questions. I really want an answer from those who advocate this law. How serious an offense do you think this is?
And a question for those who oppose it: if you were on a jury in such a case where the defendant was clearly guilty, would you vote to convict or acquit?
There's no time like the present. Well, the past used to be.
You joke, but I'm actually amazed that the original battery backup still works in the majority of my SNES cartridges that have one.
even when recycled, electronics generates a lot of waste
It's much better to have a phone that last 6 years, instead of only 2 and recycle it.