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Car Manufacturers Are Tracking Millions of Cars (boingboing.net)

Posted by EditorDavid on from the along-for-the-ride dept.

Cory Doctorow writes: Millions of new cars sold in the US and Europe are "connected," having some mechanism for exchanging data with their manufacturers after the cars are sold; these cars stream or batch-upload location data and other telemetry to their manufacturers, who argue that they are allowed to do virtually anything they want with this data, thanks to the "explicit consent" of the car owners -- who signed a lengthy contract at purchase time that contained a vague and misleading clause deep in its fine-print.
Slashdot reader Luthair adds that "OnStar infamously has done this for some time, even if the vehicle's owner was not a subscriber of their services." But now 78 million cars have an embedded cyber connection, according to one report, with analysts predicting 98% of new cars will be "connected" by 2021. The Washington Post calls it "Big Brother on Wheels."

"Carmakers have turned on a powerful spigot of precious personal data, often without owners' knowledge, transforming the automobile from a machine that helps us travel to a sophisticated computer on wheels that offers even more access to our personal habits and behaviors than smartphones do."

116 comments

  1. Not surprising. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The manufacturers are just following the eurocrat's lead, called "eCall".

    This does not excuse either, nor makes it either a good idea, of course.

    1. Re:Not surprising. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is, this is ultimately a good thing, despite the privacy implications.

      We will never get fully automated vehicles if these features don't exist. So at some point one of these car manufacturers is going to win the marketplace lottery and have "their" telemetry system become the one that gets adopted world-wide.

      However, until mobile phone networks start arranging for these vehicles to constantly stream their location at no charge to the subscriber (eg think of it as a bonus feature when you buy service for your mobile phone, you get a sim card for your car/truck/bike too) we are basically at the mercy of whatever blackbox software runs on the car.

      In a world where insurance companies essentially dictate the terms of what people are allowed to drive anyway, I would like to see this initiative come from the insurance companies, and any vehicle equipped with cameras (eg rear camera's, front cameras, etc to constantly buffer the last 5 minutes of the video feed, and only transmit it if a collision is detected.)

  2. Used? by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "explicit consent" of the car owners -- who signed a lengthy contract at purchase time that contained a vague and misleading clause deep in its fine-print.

    What about second-hand buyers? They don't typically sign a contract with original dealer or manufacturer.

    --
    Table-ized A.I.
    1. Re: Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well, hack it then. Make the telemetry send back subtly wrong stuff - or even the occational buffer overflow.

    2. Re:Used? by mrbester · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Vague and misleading clauses in contracts tend to be unenforceable. Therefore the use of that data in EU is unauthorised and on breach of data protection laws. It will be interesting to see if any information commissioners decide to prosecute. The UK one certainly has for a lot less.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    3. Re: Used? by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 2

      Make the telemetry send back subtly wrong stuff.

      Like changing your GPS coordinates so you drive in Antarctica or on the Atlantic ocean...

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    4. Re: Used? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Putout tools to let every freeloader use the car companies access to get free 4G data on their phone.

      Punish the bastards. Fuck them right in the wallet.

      Also disconnect the cars cell/sat antennas. They have no legit use, assuming you weren't fool enough to buy the stock navi.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    5. Re: Used? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      Have it say your spending all your time on Rodeo drive, Monaco, Manhattan shopping etc.

      Bet you start getting freebee offers intended for dumb rich people.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re: Used? by PPH · · Score: 1

      Every weekday morning, it says I park in a spot at downtown federal building reserved for US Marshals. Go ahead and fuck with me, OnStar.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    7. Re: Used? by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Even better OnStar, uconnect and all others operate on cell phones. Cell phones that don't function if you don't pay the monthly subscription fee. So after a year or so that gets disconnected and that data no longer gets uploaded.

      If you buy used odds are that it is disconnected after the bill stops bieng paid.

      Don't pay for the service and they can't upload data.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    8. Re: Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the EU is working on making always-online features mandatory in a few years, your suggestions would mean losing the operation permit for the vehicle.

    9. Re:Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's what's going to happen: the EU will threaten fines, car manufacturers will give the EU access to the data (they want such data relays anyway "for safety"), along with a promise to behave and everyone will be happy.

    10. Re: Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      From the article

      "even if the vehicle's owner was not a subscriber of their services"
      https://yro.slashdot.org/story/11/09/21/003259/onstar-terms-and-conditions-update-raises-privacy-concerns

    11. Re: Used? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      How are they going to catch you? If they make it part of the autobahn inspection, you just reconnect for the inspection.

      Like I do with CARB legal parts before my smog inspection. Takes a few hours every two years (they can't see most of the good parts, being internal to the engine). Gas additives also help.

      Those kinds of laws are needed in Europe. Europeans have too much respect for laws, every stupid one they pass is a help.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    12. Re: Used? by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      I'm pretty sure OnStar at least has a backup way of getting data upstream, they've been caught. You have to disconnect the antenna, which they've made progressively harder.

      We just need to extract the keys used and make custom SIMs. Free data forever, it's on GM.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    13. Re: Used? by DCFusor · · Score: 2

      Yes, there are endless descriptions on how to really disable these things. Sometimes you have to find and pull more than one fuse. In some vehicles, you basically have to remove the console electronics and short the Onstar stuff out at the antenna connector after cutting the wire to it - enough can just leak to still let them track you. And it's different on every model...so I hear. If they want to track me and my Volt, they're going to be surprised how fast I make it go, but die of boredom otherwise.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
    14. Re: Used? by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Honda knows I bought a used Honda and my name (I assume based on registration, they send me recalls about the airbag every month or so) seems easy enough for them to cancel on transfer if that's the case. Maybe even use direct mail to try n entice me into signing up for whatever monitoring they want to do.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    15. Re: Used? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re "How are they going to catch you?"
      Motor vehicle inspections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
      No sending data back to the company and gov, no passing inspection.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    16. Re:Used? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Vague and misleading clauses in contracts are interpreted to favor the party which did not draft the contract. So even without privacy protection laws, it'll be interpreted in the car buyer's favor.

    17. Re: Used? by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      Even better OnStar, uconnect and all others operate on cell phones. Cell phones that don't function if you don't pay the monthly subscription fee. So after a year or so that gets disconnected and that data no longer gets uploaded.

      If you buy used odds are that it is disconnected after the bill stops bieng paid.

      Don't pay for the service and they can't upload data.

      You would think... But Uconnect has moved to over-the-air updates for their Entertainment systems. This means that the cell service would have to still be active even if the customer isn't paying for the add-on services.

    18. Re: Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, you don't know nearly enough about how Onstar works.

      The original version of Onstar required what is now Verizon/Sprint service availability (CDMA.) Anyone with a GM Vehicle basically had "basic" service when they bought the car. Because they want you to pay like $30/mo for this service, for basically stuff you can get on your smartphone already, most people don't bother with it. But at one time this was the only way to get GPS-like features in your vehicle before GPS started coming standard in cell phones (circa 2008.)

      The underlying system doesn't give you unlimited data at all, rather you have to look at it as a carrier-provided VPN system where the APN settings only let you communicate with Onstar, and a select few services provided directly by Onstar. You would not be able to simply change the APN settings and get free data for life, because the regular internet APN would not be available. Most carriers have a minimum of two APN's, one for "mobile phone data" and one for "data tethering" which the latter basically gives you a fixed IP address until you restart the device the same way a cable modem does, and you typically had to pay more for it. The regular internet APN usually allowed free data access to specific services (eg facebook, twitter) that came stock with the cell phones being sold by the carrier at a time when everything was text. But every http query went out through the carrier's proxy server, and on the server end, would typically see a new IP address every few minutes.

    19. Re: Used? by technology_dude · · Score: 1

      Is there a database or website that is being maintained on all the various car models and how to disable this? Even just the antenna disconnection information would go a long way. I would absolutely disable it if I knew how and it could be done without removing the engine or something else as onerous.

    20. Re: Used? by currently_awake · · Score: 1

      A free wireless data connection? How can I use this? What kind of bandwidth does it offer, once I hack away the telemetry junk?

    21. Re:Used? by mrbester · · Score: 1

      This isn't a "dealt with for all EU in one go" thing like the Qualcomm monopoly case. This falls under the purview of the information commissioners of the member states as it breaks local laws in every one of them, meaning *each one can file separately*, complete with their own level of fines based on the specific legislation of the individual countries.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    22. Re:Used? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      "explicit consent" of the car owners -- who signed a lengthy contract at purchase time that contained a vague and misleading clause deep in its fine-print.

      What about second-hand buyers? They don't typically sign a contract with original dealer or manufacturer.

      The contract forbids second-hand buyers.

    23. Re: Used? by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Do DNS queries work? Then free internet.

    24. Re: Used? by pnutjam · · Score: 1

      I see a marketing opportunity for a faraday cage magnet. Most of the satellite antennas are easily identified.

      --
      Cheap storage VM.
    25. Re:Used? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but we do have a standardised minimum of data protection laws across the countries of the EU, so a decision in one country that those have been breached can feed into a much speedier trial in the others.

  3. I think this will end badly by bobstreo · · Score: 1

    Either roaming herds of killer cars, stalking prey in the cities.

    Or more likely massive data breaches followed by ransomware on your car's display.

    Maybe the manufacturers can make some extra money selling the data to their countries security agencies.

    1. Re:I think this will end badly by tinkerton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Insurers getting their hands on your data and 'optimizing' their policies to it.

    2. Re:I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bingo. Anyway, if something good comes from this it's stop charging me so goddamn much for auto insurance when I'm not the problem.

      You tailgaters and speeders need to be paying a whole hell of a lot more.

    3. Re:I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Naw. It will end with some hackers knowing how to cut the CAN bus wire to their cellular modem, and 99% of people being sheep, which ultimately (strangely) will benefit society.

    4. Re:I think this will end badly by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      Way to pick one of the ONLY positive outcomes of this technology to bitch about.

    5. Re: I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need. Just don't pay for that service and the modem don't broadcast anymore.

      It is opt in as you have to opt into paying for that service.

    6. Re:I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're funny, thinking that insurance companies are "reasonable" and might actually reward good driving habits by providing discounts. This is what insurance companies like YouI tell people in their commercials but when you get quotes from them they're actually more expensive than their competitors.

      Insurance companies are a net drain on society - they have to be because they answer to shareholders.

    7. Re: I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Car owners aren't the ones getting OnStar bills mailed to them every month. You'll find it gets paid for by the car manufacturers.

    8. Re: I think this will end badly by godel_56 · · Score: 2

      No need. Just don't pay for that service and the modem don't broadcast anymore.

      It is opt in as you have to opt into paying for that service.

      You only have to pay if you want them to provide a service to you. I doesn't mean they aren't continuously siphoning telematics and location information off your car for their benefit.

    9. Re:I think this will end badly by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

      Naw. It will end with some hackers knowing how to cut the CAN bus wire to their cellular modem, and 99% of people being sheep, which ultimately (strangely) will benefit society.

      And THAT will end with cars whose capabilities are severely restricted, or which simply won't function at all, without regular 'permission packets' from the mothership. Soon an active data connection to your car's manufacturer will be a critical system without which your car won't run. 'SaaS' has already become 'HaaS' in things like fitness watches and thermostats - how long do you think it will be before cars suffer the same fate?

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    10. Re: I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The infotainment system in my 2012 Prius requires a tethered phone for its Internet uplink in order for its dumb little infotainment apps to work. I never set that up so the page full of apps is totally useless.

      However! The MP3 player is somehow displaying cover art that is definitely not included in any ID3 tags or anywhere else on the USB flash drive. So it must be sending track title info ... somewhere ... somehow ... and getting JPEG images back.

      Which means that someone, somewhere, has a list of all the songs I've played in my car, no doubt tagged with my VIN and correlated with my true name.

      What other data are the collecting? The car does have an excellent interior mic for use with bluetooth.

    11. Re: I think this will end badly by sound+vision · · Score: 2

      Of course they're a drain, but they can already raise rates whenever they like, without technology like this.

      The auto insurance market functions much more closely to a free market than, for example, health insurance. It is viable for most people to switch auto insurers, they aren't stuck with whatever their employer picks. Thats an incentive for auto insurers to offer lower rates where possible, to incite people to switch. Currently they determine who the douches on the road are by proxy - do they drive a Corvette? Is it red? Is their email address @hotmail.com? Much more efficient would be to measure the douche factor directly.

      Whether they pass the savings on to society or pocket the difference is a totally separate question. Assuming their attitudes in that regard don't change, this still only hurts shitty drivers.

    12. Re:I think this will end badly by mikeiver1 · · Score: 1

      In our Saab wagon (GM owned Saab in 92) the Onstar unit is disconnected from the antenna... Wonder who did such a thing? Call me paranoid but I suspected that car manufactures did this, sad to see it confirmed. I just figured, What is the most evil use of such a unit and what are the likely capabilities of the ECU and various systems tied into the CANbus and acted accordingly.

    13. Re: I think this will end badly by bagofbeans · · Score: 2

      Next step is to require a connected phone before the car will work, to validate the driver as an anti-theft protection of course. Now the telematics can use your data connection!

    14. Re:I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How old is your Saab, anyway? Older Saabs (2004 and older, I think) only had the analog cell network which is long defunct, so it probably doesn't even matter if the antenna is connected or not. Only thing my OnStar button is tell me it's trying to connect when I accidentally hit it.

    15. Re:I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > charge less
      Yeah, that's not what we use data for.

    16. Re: I think this will end badly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cover art is in a database in the nav/entertainment system, it's offline.

  4. Not only this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't find the source any more but any 2018 and later year model vehicle in US must be sold with remote engine kill capability. That's why I bought a 2017 car and will keep it for as long as it runs, and then I'll be digging some old junker with a distributor and carburetor.

  5. How to tell? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didnâ(TM)t sign any contract related to tracking when I bought my car as far as Iâ(TM)m aware. I did sign up for XM with the built in stereo but I would love to know if I am being tracked. It would be the deciding factor on wether I file a massive law suit.

  6. EU GDPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How is this in any way compatible with the new EU GDPR regulations?

    1. Re: EU GDPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's compliant with EU directives to provide that data to the governments. you have no right to drive in Europe, the plutocrats and their minions may, but malicious fuel taxes prevent they poor from using the roads.

    2. Re: EU GDPR by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple: They store all the data they collect from EU countries on servers within the EU.

      Is there some other part of GDPR that you think this violates?

  7. Well I can disable it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's relatively simple to unplug the telematics module. Most people will be too afraid to pull the stereo out, but it's an easy hack.

  8. Hack your own car by gabrieltss · · Score: 0

    and put "blocks" in. Create your own version of a "host" file.
    127.0.0.1 ford.com
    127.0.0.1 gm.com
    127.0.0.1 onstar.com

    etc... LOL!

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
    1. Re:Hack your own car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not good enough. You'll still leave all the cellular back doors open for non-ford/gm/onstar to hack and connect. (GSM is not secure.)

      Best to just disconnect the cellular modem in your car.

    2. Re:Hack your own car by sound+vision · · Score: 1

      Mine would be more like:
      127.0.0.1 *

      I've seen the idea of simply disconnecting the car's communications antenna(s), but I don't know what the unintended side-effects of this may be, or how complicated that procedure would actually be.

    3. Re:Hack your own car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But I thought everyone here wanted an autonomous car!

      Every time you get in one of these it will be downloading map updates. Communicating with other cars. Transmittting details of your previous trip for updating maps and compiling lists of problem areas for such systems. Yes, and probably telling the manufacturer and the government where you are going (aka "flight plan").

      It is nearly certain that if you pull the plug on the cell antenna your car won't go anywhere.

      Now you don't want an autonomous car? Make up your minds!

    4. Re:Hack your own car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is depressing how the TCP design standardized hostfiles on Windows, Unix, Apple and derivatives so that hostnames can be blocked, but we're running into intentional crippling
      1) No wildcards. You have to know all the domains and subdomains in advance
      2) No whitelist-only setup (there are those of us dedicated enough to use block everything and approve every site upon examination --proof? NoScript)
      3) No obligation for the OS to obey you, given how Microsoft's Windows 10 setup ignores inconvenient blocks in the guise of protection against Virus meddling.
      4) No IP-specific redirection or blocking. This would be helpful to protect us from Chinese and Russian address ranges. When malware (including Microsoft) bypasses DNS with known hardcoded IPs, it's game over. New Zero Day IPs are an issue. We can use external routing hardware to block (and IPs will change anyway) but that hardware isn't home-friendly even if you know enough to use DD-WRT, Pi or commercial hardware.

    5. Re:Hack your own car by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I do want an autonomous car. But that doesn't mean a remotely controlled one.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    6. Re: Hack your own car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You apparently think they're connecting by hostname.

      If they hard code an IP, that would have no effect.

    7. Re:Hack your own car by fisted · · Score: 1

      Abusing the hosts file for blocking was never intended and is, still, a stupid and unreliable hack. Also that's got nothing to do with TCP. Please try to be less confused, also the moron who wasted a mod point on you.

      --
      CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
  9. I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I did so intentionally and I've bought older cars and put money into fixing up an older vehicle I already owned from 2005 to avoid this crap. I have a 2002 and a 2005 vehicle. One has 170,000 miles on it and the 2002 I bought has 125,000 miles on it. My intention is to keep these vehicles running for as long as I possibly can. I'm imaging this setup is only going to work for another 5-10 years. At which point I'll have to see what is available on the market which can reasonably replace it that is old. The problem is going to be finding cars with low mileage and in good condition that can continue on and be fixed up. I would buy a new car if this crap wasn't on it.

    1. Re:I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by jenningsthecat · · Score: 2

      The problem is going to be finding cars with low mileage and in good condition that can continue on and be fixed up. I would buy a new car if this crap wasn't on it.

      You're not the only one who's doing this, so you'd best buy your NEXT old car or two within a couple of years, mothball it, and put it on blocks. Otherwise, when the time comes, a viable older car may be unavailable. Then again, by the time your existing old cars die, it may simply be illegal to drive anything that hasn't been pre-pwned by the manufacturer and/or the gubmint.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    2. Re: I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you underestimate the classic car restoration community.

      It won't be long until 90's cars are considered classics.

      Viable for just buying and driving will be low, but there are plenty of fix it up options.

    3. Re:I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The morons will probably pass a law making it illegal to drive a car over two years old.
      So much for my 1991 Honda Civic.

    4. Re:I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A local Midas shop around here told me that if a repair will require pulling the engine, they just find a good used one, slap on a 12 month / 12,000 mile warranty and put that in. The guy at the shop said it's usually cheaper for the customer to do that than to repair the issue.

      So, you could go that route. You could also looking at having a shop buy a crate engine and/or transmission and install it for you, hopefully w/o needing a new computer. It's probably going to be a good $10k if you do both, but then you have a brand new car under the hood (with a manufacturer's warranty).

    5. Re:I bought my cars 2nd hand; no such agreement by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      Stick with popular models; you can easily get new engines, transmissions, etc., for a Honda, Toyota, GM, or Ford. Luxury features can be retrofitted. Not cheap, but less expensive than a new car. I just had an oil leak fixed on an 18-year-old SUV; someone asked "why spend $750 on a car that old?" Um, because it's useful to me. Try to buy that car for $750. You can't. It's worth that much to have something with a tow package and a ton of cargo space sitting in my driveway, just in case I need it (like if another rat decides to chew my soy-insulated ignition cables on my regular car). I could replace all the carpet and all the leather on the seats for a few thousand; I could put a nav system in for a few hundred. Probably will at some point.

  10. Glad I don't own one even moreso now. by Ayanami_R · · Score: 1

    It was just about saving money but this is a good reason too.

    --
    "Science is the power of man"
  11. Re:You were warned this would happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How'd you get so smart? I wanna be smart.

  12. Tin foil hat article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep and we have had black boxes in cars to that record and don't be surprised if they find a way to incorporate those camera's into a form of data gathering for accidents to. In fact many trucking companies have duel facing camera's to record 14 seconds of a accident or any record of a panic action occurring. Guess the paranoid people better just stay home. By the way, you can disconnect OnStar and most of these devices if you wish.

    1. Re:Tin foil hat article by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but the trucking companies own their trucks and they *want* the coverage for legitimate reasons. I'm all in favor of that.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  13. We need to require anonymized data by macsimcon · · Score: 1

    We need a law to require all data collected be anonymized to protect our privacy, and it's not going to be easy because I'd doubt 1 in 10 members of Congress would understand the technology. In addition, Google, Facebook, Verizon, and GM will all lobby Congress to prevent this from happening.

    If we're going to recapture our privacy, the data has to be anonymized at the source, we can't leave it up to companies like Apple, just trusting that they're assigning us a token rather than tying the data collected to our actual identity.

    Now, I know that requesting a new token is likely to reset what the company knows about our behavior, which is likely to negatively affect the services they're providing us. I just think that each customer should be able to decide whether they want privacy or convenience from each company.

    1. Re:We need to require anonymized data by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >"I just think that each customer should be able to decide whether they want privacy or convenience from each company."

      I think customers should be able to decide to have BOTH. Right now, there is no choice at all. But I know the choice that WOULD be offered for those who don't want their cars to talk to the mothership- The infotainment system will just not work at all.

    2. Re: We need to require anonymized data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bah, I always get aftermarket sound systems anyways.
      Infotainment be damned. No I don't want to hear about the free trial satellite radio for the millionth time, yoink.

    3. Re:We need to require anonymized data by gtall · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the other 9 in 10 members of Congress will get campaign contributions to punch enough loopholes in any law to make it look like a colander.

  14. Don't use their connected service by movdqa · · Score: 1

    I have a new Camry and they offer Entune as their media/entertainment/communications. And they work really, really hard on getting you to install it. It uses your phone's cellular data plan for communications of course, so they very well may send a lot of personal information over that line. They give you two years for free and then they charge you for it. I never installed it as it's received terrible reviews and you need a wired connection to use it reasonably.

    1. Re:Don't use their connected service by quonset · · Score: 1

      It uses your phone's cellular data plan for communications of course

      Good thing a) I don't connect my phone to my car and b) I can't connect my phone to my car. I have a real radio and my phone is a flip phone.

    2. Re:Don't use their connected service by DCFusor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Gm uses the phone they build into the car whether you like it or not, and whether you bought minutes or not. And if it can't find a cell tower, it goes satellite. Yup, more than one band is available.
      I know this is true on my 2012 Volt - because I can still use the car phone in places where cell phones do not have any bars at all, and don't work. But it's expensive and I haven't bought any minutes in years.

      --
      Why guess when you can know? Measure!
  15. Yea but I asked Alexa... by Slugster · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...and she said everything was okay, that nobody was tracking anything.

    1. Re:Yea but I asked Alexa... by David_Hart · · Score: 1

      ...and she said everything was okay, that nobody was tracking anything.

      I just asked Alexa what my address was and she said: "That's not supported..... yet..."

      So, give her time....

  16. talking about how to blind your car by charliemerritt03 · · Score: 1

    If you could find the GPS and cell antennas you could cover them with tin foil. Wouldn't surprise me if the black box antenna locations are documented somewhere. Of course you could live like me "with nothing to hide" grrrrrr. If they rigged the car to malfunction after (30 days) of no-ping - remove the cover while near a dealership - that should update the car and send them a message. To even be talking about how to blind your car is insane & necessary.

  17. Not my POS car. :D by ruddk · · Score: 1

    I suppose since I buy 10yr old cars, I have some time before I have to deal with this crap. :D

    --
    L'Idiot
  18. In Europe GDPR puts a stop to this by Aliks · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As of 18th May there are strong limits on slurping up data without explicit buy in from the subject.

    1. Re:In Europe GDPR puts a stop to this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The current EU laws already forbid this. Collection and processing of personal data needs explicit and specific consent from the person the data is about if it isn't obviously needed to make a service possible (you need to process someone's address to be able to deliver a package to that address, that kind of thing). Burying it in a lengthy agreement does not count as specific consent.

  19. Just great. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 4, Funny

    Now I have to cover my car in tin foil too.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:Just great. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Naah,

      Just the antenna.

  20. It's pretty easy to yank the onstar box by exabrial · · Score: 1

    It's pretty easy to yank the onstar box in your vehicle. I recommend doing it just for security reasons. A CAN network should absolutely be air gapped.

    1. Re:It's pretty easy to yank the onstar box by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I knew a guy who bought a car unaware OnStar was in it, he accidentally hit a button and a voice said, "Hi, this is OnStar, how can I help you?"

      "You can get the fuck out of my car!" he tells it, takes it right back to where he bought it, told them to rip it out or refund his money. They uninstalled it.

  21. Echo chamber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slashdot has become an echo chamber.

    What about the benefits of sending data back? Have you ever tried to actually deal with people, especially when money is on the line? I mean I want people to be happy with their product, and I don't enjoy angry accusatory phone calls...

    People very often lie when something goes wrong, and even if telling the truth would help us both out (better, longer lasting product) AND get the problem fixed faster, but we spend so much time and effort going over false or completely made-up observations and emotionally charged statements.

    So what if the data can say something (hypothetical situation)?

    Customer account: "the bearing just failed, you stupid morons and your cheap bearings and your constant cheaping out, also there's a crack in your windshield, what are you cheapening out on your glass you better get those people in line, I want this replaced or I'll never buy again..."

    The data says: Your drive is otherwise pretty smooth and you're otherwise treating your car well. BUT, at a regular point every day for the past 3 months, there is this large spike on the acceleration detector.

    Customer: oh yeah, damn that Department of Transportation. They won't fix that damn pothole so I just run over it every day at high speed.

    (okay, so if you knew we were watching for high-energy events at risk to your warranty, maybe you'd have avoided that pothole?)

    ((and oh, I'll save so much money not having to ream the bearing vendor and take samples, that I'll probably honor your warranty claim anyway. pfft in real cost what's a wheel bearing set replacement and tire balancing/alignment anyway?))

    Okay, dear customer, please proceed to the nearest dealership for your warranty replacement, if you know which one you want I can put them on the line right now, have a nice day.

    1. Re:Echo chamber by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

      Slashdot has become an echo chamber.

      What about the benefits of sending data back? Have you ever tried to actually deal with people, especially when money is on the line? I mean I want people to be happy with their product, and I don't enjoy angry accusatory phone calls...

      People very often lie when something goes wrong, and even if telling the truth would help us both out (better, longer lasting product) AND get the problem fixed faster, but we spend so much time and effort going over false or completely made-up observations and emotionally charged statements.

      So what if the data can say something (hypothetical situation)?

      Customer account: "the bearing just failed, you stupid morons and your cheap bearings and your constant cheaping out, also there's a crack in your windshield, what are you cheapening out on your glass you better get those people in line, I want this replaced or I'll never buy again..."

      The data says: Your drive is otherwise pretty smooth and you're otherwise treating your car well. BUT, at a regular point every day for the past 3 months, there is this large spike on the acceleration detector.

      Customer: oh yeah, damn that Department of Transportation. They won't fix that damn pothole so I just run over it every day at high speed.

      (okay, so if you knew we were watching for high-energy events at risk to your warranty, maybe you'd have avoided that pothole?)

      ((and oh, I'll save so much money not having to ream the bearing vendor and take samples, that I'll probably honor your warranty claim anyway. pfft in real cost what's a wheel bearing set replacement and tire balancing/alignment anyway?))

      Okay, dear customer, please proceed to the nearest dealership for your warranty replacement, if you know which one you want I can put them on the line right now, have a nice day.

      You'd have a lot more credibility if you a) hadn't posted as AC, b) could say with a straight face that any savings resulting from installing spyware in people's cars would be reflected in reduced sticker prices, and c) acknowledged that people's privacy concerns are at least as legitimate as your shareholder protectionist stance. If you're gonna shill, at least put some effort and imagination into it.

      --
      'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    2. Re:Echo chamber by HiThere · · Score: 1

      What reason do you have to think that the end user (i.e. purchaser of the vehicle) will receive any benefits from this system? Can you point to any benefits so far that don't require extra payment in advance?

      I don't drive, so I'm a "relatively" unbiased observer of this debate, but nobody, including you, has mentioned any benefits so far that weren't paid extra for in advance.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    3. Re:Echo chamber by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The telemetry won't cost the end-user any extra money, because:

      1) In most cases the "infotainment" system people demand (and pay for because it has value to them) has untapped memory and processing power. It's no big deal processing-wise to periodically log data off of the internal fieldbus and to count events. Look at the cost of an industrial-temperature CF or SD card: It's a laughably cheap $32~$40.

      2) The price people pay for new cars (obviously) is not the cost it takes to build the car. There are "market segments" where it's a value/dollar proposition. Not putting in the data collection when possible is just stupid, when it has no bearing on the cost people will pay for the car based on their perceived value.

      As for benefits:
      1) An auto company was able to fix their CVT, making it much more reliable, by collecting data on how it ran. Under certain circumstances (temperature, air pressure, torque) it was wearing excessively. It would still wear out well past most people's warranties. But by being able to collect this broad pool of data, they were able to produce a control software fix, which was installed FOR FREE on all affected vehicles. This affects the end user's wallet now by not having to rebuild a transmission as often or in most cases at all, and later positively affects the resale value of the vehicle. (And yes the auto company benefits by the positive perception surrounding their reliability).

      2) Another benefit to the end user, is if they stick with the same manufacturer for the next car, then the data collected helps build the newer cars better. Or maybe even not the same manufacturer, a rising tide lifts all boats.

    4. Re:Echo chamber by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I'll accept the CVT repair as a potential benefit, but before I actually accept as an actual benefit I need to know that those who received the "improvement" considered it an improvement. Searching for "CVT automobile transmission automatic upgrade" (without quotes) didn't return any hits on the first page.

      The assertion(2) that it helps make newer cars better is a (potential) benefit to the community, but probably not measurably to the individual driver. It's also not proven. That kind of information is just about as often used to make things chintzier. Perhaps more often. True, that *could* lead to lower prices, but that's far from guaranteed, and often doesn't happen.

      In the past the situations where this kind of information has been used to the benefit of the operator of the vehicle was in situations where the vehicle was owned by the company/agency that was doing the data collection. Trains and airplanes are examples. When it's been collected by the manufacturer (after sale) it has much more frequently been used to hide problems. It's not clear to me why I shouldn't expect that pattern to continue.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  22. How? by kackle · · Score: 1

    Does anyone know HOW the data leave the car? If a vehicle doesn't have OnStar, even as an option, then how? WiFi? Special radio band? (Cellular ain't cheap [25 GB?!] and the manufacturers don't own any cellular towers.)

    1. Re: How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cellular ain't cheap?
      It's 3G, it's cheap. They buy in insanely bulky quantities. Even cheaper. They prepay for years. Big discount for businesses.

    2. Re:How? by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Lots of data compression, cell phone modems, anything that can make a network in different nations. The car knows what data it will be sending back so that that set can really be compressed. Its not like its sending back real time video, audio, images, conversations in the car at this time.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  23. In Europe GDPR puts a stop to this-government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if government vehicles has this "we know were you are" feature?

  24. Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks The Law' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    http://www.businessinsider.com...

    Ford Exec: 'We Know Everyone Who Breaks The Law' Thanks To Our GPS In Your Car

  25. some do yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some important vehicles have a GPS tracking. But they don't do that for your run of the mill post moped delivering letters.

  26. Well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You got me! Mine is at my house.

    *Hangs head in shame*

  27. Incredibly long time on-going by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Been obvious to me (ten+ years)

  28. Not in my car by No+Longer+an+AC · · Score: 1

    It's nearly 20 years old...Oh wait. I did plug an OBD-II gadget that connects to my phone and there is that dash-cam. Crap. My privacy doesn't exist.

      Not that Verizon wasn't already more aware of where I am than I am. And literally like clockwork, my fitness tracker gizmo has just vibrated to tell me I should get off my ass - and I know it talks to servers in China too. I try to stop it. I'm not sure how successful I've been but I did install a firewall on my phone.

    I suspect the firewall app is the real spyware. Netflix knows what I watch. Amazon knows what I buy. Even though I don't have a FaceBook account they probably have a profile on me.

    Even the liquor store where I buy beer wants my email address. Why should the sale of alcohol involve an e-mail adress? They said they had just partnered with - I cannot even remember what idiotic website. They're outsourcing the tracking!

    When I was a kid I thought Radio Shack's Battery of the Month Club card was awesome. I always needed batteries. What did Radio Shack get out of it? I wasn't really sure but I found out later in life that a customer's information was worth 26 cents to my employer at the time. I was shocked, but also felt a bit naive - of course their customer database was valuable...and of course they sold it.

    1. Re:Not in my car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What did Radio Shack get out of it?

      What Radio Shack got out of it was a very embarrassing moment when on national TV a person interviewing a Radio Shack executive admitting to giving false addresses when buying there. Radio Shack ended their policy of asking for addresses a week later. I don't recall ever being asked for my address at any store, not just Radio Shack, since.

      Of course these stores found sneakier ways to get your address to mail you junk. If you use a credit card then they will get your address from the bank. They might ask for a zip code if you pay cash, which they use for market tracking to get an estimate on where they might put their next store.

      Because of an offhand admission from an obscure TV interview stores never ask for anyone's address any more. They found out people don't like giving their address to stores. I just wish the local barbershop had a similar embarrassing moment on asking for phone numbers. I don't give them my phone number and it throws off their process every time.

    2. Re:Not in my car by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I recall Radio Shack being the ONLY store that asked for an address regularly when buying stuff, in the late 90s. Rumor was they flagged people buying certain electronics equipment for investigation by the FBI/Secret Service, for phreaking/hacking in particular.

  29. MyFord Mobile by certsoft · · Score: 1

    Ford has cell phone modems in their electric (Focus Electric) and PHEV (C-Max and Fusion) cars. According to the service manual a lot of information is provided to that modem but only a small part shows up on the App or website. No way of knowing if the modem just uploads that limited subset of data or if everything is uploaded with the rest kept for Ford use only.

    They missed out on my data for the 1st 3.4 years I owned my PHEV because the original modems only did 2G AT&T and our AT&T tower only had 3G (it was installed after the 2G shutdown was announced). Ford finally replaced all the modems at the very very end of 2016 with 3G models.

  30. Looks like a case for "Certified Dumb Vehicle" to by X!0mbarg · · Score: 1

    Would anyone else consider having (or even speccing out) a vehicle that is "Certified" as not interconnected to others in any way?

    Things like no Sirius/XM, no internal WiFi, no built in GPS, etc.

    Obviously, there is a need for built in Bluetooth for Hands Free phone operation. Beyond that, what else dopes everyone consider truly needed?

    Would having such a certified Dumb Vehicle even be a worthwhile selling point?

  31. Not as bad as cell phones by HiThere · · Score: 1, Troll

    The article, or at least the summary, is wrong when it call this more intrusive than cell phones. Cell phones definitely track your location, well, the location of the phone, at all times. They contain a lot more personal data. And they are more often broken into and the data widely shared.

    That's not saying this additional intrusion isn't evil. But lets not engage in false hyperbole.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    1. Re:Not as bad as cell phones by mentil · · Score: 3, Funny

      Indeed, false hyperbole is literally the worst thing ever.

      --
      Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    2. Re:Not as bad as cell phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, false hyperbole is literally the worst thing ever.

      No, níggers are literally the worst thing ever. If you're going to try being clever at least be truthful.

  32. Don't buy new and read fine print... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm quite sure that if it's a difference between a commission on a $50K car or turning off this capability (or striking the language), the Sales guy will take the $50k.

    It's one thing to give up you're data for "free", quite another when you're paying $50k for the priviledge.

    But if people can t even be bothered to read "purchase contracts", I don't know what to say.

    1. Re:Don't buy new and read fine print... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are a lawyer who deals with contracts on a daily basis there is no hope for the average punter to even begin to understand a sales contract.
      Even having legal advice won't get the company you are buying from to change a word in the contract.
      My lawyer friends NEVER buy anything new 'off the lot' or 'out of the showroom'.

    2. Re:Don't buy new and read fine print... by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      But if people can t even be bothered to read "purchase contracts", I don't know what to say.

      There shouldn't BE a purchase contract, just a bill of sale.

  33. We need software freedom. Always. by jbn-o · · Score: 1

    Software freedom (a computer owner's freedom to run, inspect, share, and modify published computer software) is a viable cure for this just as it would have been a great way to thoroughly address the recent VW fraud where that company (and many other automakers) cheated emissions checking by having the software control emissions differently during testing than during regular car use. Fines, firings, and forcing automakers to accept returned cars in exchange for money won't fix these problems and they won't help car owners own the vehicles they ostensibly own. Software freedom can by allowing car owners to determine their own limit for how much they're willing to make their cars obey their will (including not leaking data about the car's use without their consent). This is ultimately an ethical issue (how should we treat people with regard to computers?) and yet another spying issue (spying is big business and turning a blind eye to software freedom is indistinguishable from letting abusive proprietors have their way).

    --
    Digital Citizen
  34. Cut the Trace by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Systems like OnStar will brick the car if you disable them, but if you cut the antenna leads the system doesn't know that it's just not parked in a tunnel or something. Barring that, if we know the frequency we can install a very low power antenna next to their antenna and jam the signal.

  35. How can they even afford this shit? by wardrich86 · · Score: 1

    Data plans ain't cheap here.

    1. Re:How can they even afford this shit? by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      10 GB/mo for one account is expensive. 100 MB/mo for a million isn't.