Slashdot Mirror
A Look at How Indian Women Have Persevered Through Several Obstacles To Contribute to the Open Source Community (factordaily.com)
A fascinating story of how Indian women have persevered through various roadblocks, including cultural, to actively contribute to the open source community. An excerpt from the story: As Vaishali Thakker, a 23-year old open source programmer looked over the hall filled with around 200 people, she didn't know how to react to what she had just heard. Thakker was one of the five women on the stage at PyCon India 2017, a conference on the use of the Python programming language, in New Delhi. The topic of the discussion was "Women in open source." As the women started discussing the open source projects they had been working on, the challenges and so on, someone from the audience got up and drew the attention of the gathering to the wi-fi hotspots in the hall. They were named "Shut the fk up" and "Feminism sucks." "It was right on our faces," remembers Thakker. For their part, the organisers were upset and even warned the audience. But the event had no code of conduct for anyone to really penalise or expel the culprits.
"It's disheartening when you're talking about the problem, someone is actually giving a proof that it (gender bias) indeed is a problem. In a way, I found it funny, because how stupid can you be to give the proof that the problem actually exists," says Thakker. And how. It's just been three years in her coding career but she is familiar with the high wall that gender stereotyping puts up in the world of software scripting. More so in her chosen field of coding. Thakker is among a small -- but fast-growing -- set of women coders from India shaping the future of several open source platforms globally including the Linux kernel, the core software program behind the world's biggest eponymous open source software.
"It's disheartening when you're talking about the problem, someone is actually giving a proof that it (gender bias) indeed is a problem. In a way, I found it funny, because how stupid can you be to give the proof that the problem actually exists," says Thakker. And how. It's just been three years in her coding career but she is familiar with the high wall that gender stereotyping puts up in the world of software scripting. More so in her chosen field of coding. Thakker is among a small -- but fast-growing -- set of women coders from India shaping the future of several open source platforms globally including the Linux kernel, the core software program behind the world's biggest eponymous open source software.
This one's got everything: Indians, women, feminism, Python, gender quotas. Oh boy am I sure looking forward to all the constructive discussions that will take place here!
Do all open source developers have the maturity of two year-olds? It would appear so from the wifi hijinks at the conference.
That is all.
and....I don't care.
Can they program? What kewl things did they hack?
This is not a dating site. This is a tech conference. Get with the program.
But I really couldn't give two shits what's between someone's legs when reading their code. The only bit that really matters is how good the code is.
Even if 10 or 20% of men are the culprits, I can see how that presents a significant barrier to all women wanting to enter the field. However, that's still "some men." When people claim the problem is "men," then I'd rather just tune out. The fact is, I don't behave like that, I'd speak out against that behavior if I saw it, but I just don't see it in the environments I frequent. Somehow I still get lumped in as part of the problem because I'm male. Whatever... I stopped listening when I was supposed to fix a problem I have zero control over.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
NO. This is the proof that YOU are creating the problem.
I got no problem working with women on a daily base in my IT-job because they shut up (as men) and just do the job and they get equally paid.
I don't question the quality of a git based on the name (and supposed gender) of the owner.
It's just like that 16yr old prodigy that turned out to be a fraud and then started screeching that people were harassing her. It's almost like there's this gigantic clusterfuck of people who are nobodies and trying to get their 11.8 minutes of fame by cashing in on the latest "look at all these people harassing me..."
Om, nomnomnom...
I'm pretty certain every movement, ism, belief, and so on, is or will eventually become, plagued with extremists. And everyone else who do not consider themselves part of that group, will judge that group by the actions and words of those extremists. Worse still, is that those who are judging the group by the actions of the group's extremists, are a group in of themselves, and are thus prone to having extremist members within them (eg: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...).
I'm god, but it's a bit of a drag really...
I wonder if she encounters more prejudice as a result of her gender, her ethnicity, or her choice of language. My guess would be choice of language...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
...is to stop talking about gender and "gendered" issues as if they are not just created by this polarizing talk of gender all the time. Gender doesn't matter. Only code does. No one online knows you're a man, woman, brown, red, purple, with 1 leg or a missing eye until you bring it up.
Let's face it, "Women in Open Source" as a talk is like a magnet to anyone looking to troll you and just get a rise out of you. Same as bringing in any other physical carateristics you have. People just perceive it as you trying to get attention, and the people who are more apt at giving you attention won't give you the positive kind.
If you send a patch to a Open source projet with your e-mail being vthakker@something.com, no one can even tell if you're a man or woman unless you bring it up.
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
including the Linux kernel, the core software program behind the world's biggest eponymous open source software.
What open source software, aside from possibly Linux, a mashup of the original developer's name (LINus) and the thing he was trying to recreate (UniX), is named after it's original author?
Is there a Mr. Containers? Ms. Drupal? Mrs. Apache? I've scan the list of books at O'Reilly and none jumps out as being named after their creator, the defining requirement for considering something as eponymous last I checked.
Ken
(/- - - Watches video in silence, eyes glued to the screen; turns around, clears throat - - -/)
"No, I am absolutely, positively sure, that that person is NOT Linus."
Is this proof of gender bias globally or a localized gender bias in India?
Also let's not lose sight of the fact that the conference room at a programming conference in India was full of men (presumably) listening to five women talk about the struggles women programmers face in open source projects.
I contend the issue may not be as wide-spread as some would have you believe, the packed conference room points to a general sensitivity/openness to the issue.
Ken
I recall being in a car (back in india) where the wife of my friend, who I had mostly respected, a staunch feminist, was in a discussion with my friend, her spouse. A short while into the discussion, see grabbed an apply my friend was eating and threw it out the window, "focus on me when I am talking" she said. I thought it was odd but hey, I will just shut up, nonetheless it stuck in my head. Few years later, they did end up having a divorce when this incident just popped in my thoughts. The whole process was bit of a feminist from hell. A bunch of feminist organizations backed her up initially, until they realized she was abusing the rights they had fought for every women, as an example, she falsely accused the family of this individual of demanding dowry. A severe crime in India, this is the only crime where legally, "you are guilty and must prove your innocence". It finally all settled after she has extorted a lot of dough from her in-laws and husband.
This lady did a lot of harm to feminism. Only silver lining, when the dust settled she was not welcomed at a lot of these organizations, nonetheless all those who witnessed had a mental stereotype of a feminist. It took few years for me to evaluate that my sole example was actually a bad person and this is not what feminism stands for.
So what your saying is that everyone is part of a group that has extremists and every group will be judged by those extimist members.
Or better yet when any group that had a originally well defined goal becomes self serving because the goal has been met become irrelevant and extremists keep it alive by parading the original well-intentioned goal to innocent passer-bys with dishonesty and tropes who use shaming tactics and name calling to galvanize their support and the groups survival. (Do you believe X well then you are a Y! What is Y? Everything awesome. Never mind those naysayers they are just Z. Z is evil because they hate X. You're not a Z are you?)
Wow. Instant Gratification.
I don't bother doing much more than kicking my patches over the wall to these major open source projects because I'm pretty sick of dealing with a mix of bros, omegas, and MRAs. It's pretty sad when bros are the nicest guys on the list. All three will date rape you and argue about the justifications afterwards.
Feminism is not about equality. The name feminism is about exactly what the word feminism is; making things, people, etc. feminine. Or to look at it another way, the destruction of masculinity, and by extension, female superiority.
If feminism was about equality, it'd be called egalitarianism.
As Vaishali Thakker, a 23-year old open source programmer looked over the hall filled with around 200 people, she didn't know how to react to what she had just heard. Thakker was one of the five women on the stage at PyCon India 2017, a conference on the use of the Python programming language, in New Delhi. The topic of the discussion was "Women in open source."
200 (mostly?) men fill a conference room to hear five women talk about "Women in open source".
I suspect the hall was filled because it was the only session that guaranteed there would at least be women presenting, if not attending.
Ken
If the females in India — where the society is, if anything, only more "patriarchal" than in the US, with the sex disparity growing — are achieving such results, then whatever is holding American ones back, can not be "patriarchy".
On that matter, the statistics among in chess offers a similar proof — the far more "patriarchal" societies of Eastern Europe and China, where women are still expected to look pretty and cook dinner — have many more prominent female players than the US does...
Whether the Feminism and the endless dollars spent on "womyn studies" in various colleges are to actually be blamed, these endeavors certainly have not helped matters.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
... this is infantilism and/or bullying.
Given, gender/sex is the vector by which it is put in effect, but stuff like this shouldn't even be discussed. Find the hotpotters, kick them out, no reimbursement, if they raise a stink, call the police and press charges.
This isn't generic sexism, it's beyond that IMHO. I also think it's a problem if we slap the term sexism on to *everything*, like a 55 year old billionaire grabbing the crotch of a woman. It dilutes the term and causes it to lose any useful meaning.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes. This includes seeking to establish educational and professional opportunities for women that are equal to those for men.
#DeleteFacebook
Is not having an internet connection
Sexism so prevalent that they had to outlaw revealing the gender of a baby before birth to avoid termination of female babies
Women getting burned alive, splashed with acid or murdered outright because their dowries were not big enough
Rape at the drop of the hat, many times gang rapes
Lower healthcare standards
Etc.
And they overcame all of this and achieved the ultimate goal...contributing to the Open Source Movement.
LOL!
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Feminism does suck ... and IYF femi-nazi bitches need to STFU! A true for India as it is for progressive /. droolers. What's the issue ?
Feminism is cancer.
In certain cases it might be, just like chauvinism and any other standpoint taken to the extreme. In the end we should be treating all people with the same respect we would want for ourselves, no matter their biological, religious or cultural differences. Those who seek to make a negative example of someone's differences is not a very respectable person.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
Yes and the Democratic Republic of North Korea is democratic. If feminism was about "equality of the sexes" then mission accomplished across the board. The movement and ideology is irrelevant in the western world. There is no end goal for feminism because it isn't about equality in opportunity or legality. It's about women supremacy and getting back at men for history which is why we see the BBC males taking pay cuts for no reason other than the long debunked gender pay gap myth and virtue signaling despite reports stating that there was no discrimination. Feminism is about equal outcomes which is contrary to meritocracy and why we see the bar lowered in many areas to get more women in. Feminism is about treating women different because being in the same room as men is oppressive. Lowering the bar, vengeful practices, and segregation is not equality!
Even you assume there are not educational and professional opportunities for women equal to men yet I haven't seen a single male only scholarship for STEM ( I bet you can't find one either) nor have I seen any male affirmative action in STEM. The favoritism is toward women so the institution can check their little quota box and feel smug about it and we see that with younger women making more and are preferred over men for STEM faculty. I have seen more opportunity for women these days than men. What are you talking about other than the outcomes you don't like?
Men and women are different so personal and social "equality" is code for "we want more because equality of outcome using bad measures". Using bad measures (gender pay gap) to promote bad policy (vindictive practices) and treating women different (lower standard and segregation) will never achieve "equality" in any true sense of the word. Forcing equal outcomes is the antithesis of a free society.
Sorry mates, looks like all the Open source jobs are going to the India sweatshops now.
Why stop at females? Soon we will have child labour.
Imagine 6 yr olds locked in a dimly lit, dirty, poorly ventilated computer room for 16 hours a day churning out open sourced libraries and kernel patches.
Yeah theyâ(TM)re gonna take away all our jobs!
Isn't one of the arguments FOR open source development model vs proprietary is that gender doesn't matter? Location doesn't matter? Age doesn't matter? So at what point did all that start mattering?
The article deliberately blurs the distinction between attacking women and attacking feminism. A wifi network entitled "Feminism sucks" is the latter.
Feminism is an ideology that promotes gendered hatred, discrimination, and bigotry. It calls for employers to bias their selection toward female candidates, give preferential treatment to female employees, and have special procedures to punish men who are accused of stepping out of line. It blames all the ills of the world on men and "patriarchy", inventing a monstrous history of male humanity to justify their prejudice towards present-day men, who are presumed to have inherited some original male sin.
Given the striking parallels - particularly discrimination against a group that is over-represented in high-status professions like programming - the article is closely equivalent to deriding a statement that "Nazism sucks" as clear evidence of systematic prejudice against Aryans.
Many are getting sick of your bulling shit and it's not the women you're going to have to worry about. It's easy to pick on girls when you're a punk.
If women wants to be recognized in coding community thy need to bring code, complying about bullshit will not accomplish nothing except further aliening them more, people that compiling a lot are narcissists with not talent that want to be accepted for no fucking reason.
I'm not saying it's all good and sexism is over, but this is being characterized as flamebait by a lot of comments, and it repeatedly contains things like:
“Biases are there because at many places some people feel women aren’t good enough to code. But I haven’t encountered any such bias because the Linux kernel community is really good,” she adds.
And this woman stating directly that having a baby was a bigger barrier than any of her male counterparts, but her modern office in India was very accommodating:
“Sometimes I feel, when they (women) are in this field they are more aggressive because they want to prove that they are as good as their male counterparts,” she says, adding she has not faced gender bias at work yet.
“I don’t have any complaints. I feel girls are not short on talent, it’s just that they have to stick around. Sometimes it becomes difficult if you have a maternity leave, you’re disconnected for six months from everything and you cannot complain about it because the child needs you,” she says.
How did she cope? “I took my child to office with me, and my office supported that,” Deshpande-Dalal says.
Those parts quoted in the article certainly exist and are important, but you know, RTFA.
I agree but it just seems that 'feminism' has been soiled by too many extremists that it has lost all sense pragmatism or direction. There are places that absolutely need feminism and if western feminism tried to help those countries and those women I think many more would respect the movement and ideology. Instead of addressing real issues in the world we get diatribes about video games and movies.
Feminism may not be cancer but it is infected with a malignancy that, IMO, is terminal to any redeeming quality.
Penandpaper, inadvertently demonstrating the continued need for feminism and its relevance today, namely through the manner of the posturing used against it.
Thanks for your contributions.
found the fuckstick who doesn't understand anything about feminism!
give me a break with this nonsense.
did those indian 'white supermacist alt-right males' come up and take of your hajibis and touch your hair, as well?
lol victim culture.
'someone from the audience got up and drew the attention of the gathering to the wi-fi hotspots in the hall. They were named "Shut the fk up" and "Feminism sucks."'
India with its caste system is like a feudal society from the dark ages. Before we discuss women in open source, how about we first address the problem with the Dalit (the Untouchables) - how many Dalit are involved in software development?
"the manner of the posturing used against it."
Yes because nothing screams religion like unquestioning loyalty and subservience... How dare I have an opinion outside of the Holy Doctrine of Feminist Faith.
In the time before Men and Patriarchy it was good. The evilness of Masculinity has turned Sister against Sister! But fear not and harken oh Ally! The Holy Matriarchy has a plan for you, oh dear emasculated Ally. Dare not question the Holy Doctrine of Feminist Faith! Exorcise any criticism or skepticism you see on these intertubes. Strengthen your faith by listening and believing unconditionally. Reeeeeee before the Goddess Queen of the Holy Matriarchy so that you will be saved from Patriarchy and it's vile Penis' used to deceive Women. In the name of the Mother. The Daughter. And Pink Vagina Hats. Wamen.
*grabs junk* hmmmmm.
I am a woman. You are marginalizing my experiences and humanity. You are toxic and are creating a toxic environment. You are the problem when you so easily malign the experiences people like me face. You are creating obstacles and limiting my opportunity to exist in this space. You should feel ashamed of yourself. Be the good ally and listen and believe because you have said enough to demonstrate that you hate all women.
There was nothing inadvertent about voicing my thoughts on modern western feminism and the toxicity it has become. I would rather label myself a MRA trying to get more male shelters that would actually help people than a feminist using bad science to attack meritocracy that will harm people. (both have toxic members but one has an objective legal goals to accomplish. I like mission accomplished banners.)
No, it is about female privilege. They cannot even be honest with themselves. At least the MRA movement is honest, they are looking out for men's rights..
"fuckstick ... about ... feminism"
Did you just assume the masculinity of my feminine penis?
Yeah ok..and communism is all about power to the people.
Repeat after me..
and you're a catcher
And you're a catcher
And you're a catcher
The thing is gender bias works both ways. Some might see a talk on "women in x" as a clear example of bias and it isn't an open or close matter. There's an assumption that everything in the name of feminism is fair and good. In reality, in namesake alone it's not gender neutral. Many people might legitimately object to things such as making women a special cause in technology. It's a women are welcome kind of thing until women are more welcome than men and that's sometimes what is happening. Expressing yourself crudely through SSID names, is, crude. Some people might even only be doing it to mess around as opposed to a form of protest. It's not exactly the end of the world in any case. I suggest in future those participants simply boo loudly and shout down the speaker screaming "sexist" while banging on things such as chair backs as this appear to be acceptable behaviour today. At the end of the day, we're talking about people screwing around with what's essentially text messages. If you don't like it, then put down your phone, or just ignore it. Alternatively, even put your own SSID in as a rebuttal. As someone genuinely concerned about bias in technology, of all shapes and sizes, people posting silly SSIDs doesn't rank highly in my list of forms of bias that genuinely present a barrier for people wishing to engage in technology. In fact, it doesn't rank on that list altogether. I can't ever imagine giving up my passion in technology because of a silly SSID name, something someone wrote on a toilet wall, etc. There's also a line you don't want to cross with spoiling people's harmless fun or expressions. What you have here are two things potentially threatening to provoke the kind of bias they're trying to prevent. What I seem to be seeing from all this is people standing and proclaiming to be doing so in the name of women's rights really saying things like "women are so sensitive, they can't take a joke, therefore no one in technology is allowed to make a joke otherwise women will feel unwelcome". I personally don't think that's true but that's what this report is effectively saying.
So there are loud mouths. Big deal? Why should an entire movement, and a movement, I might add that by and large has seen women gain a great deal since the days when they were chattel with few political or legal rights independent of their fathers, brothers or husbands. So what if the odd kook gets on the nightly news? Is it fair to damn any movement by the cranks, because if it is, well, there's this minority of American conservatism that's awfully loud and hold ridiculous positions. Shall I be free to define all Republicans by Roy Moore, for instance?
Perhaps you should pay less attention to the attention whores in any movement, and look at what the majority of the movement is about. Unless your only interest is in damning the majority by the wingnuttery of a fringe.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
And what seems to be going today is the abuse of feminist terminology for individual economic or political game, because much like "think of the children!!!" it demands that you shortcircuit straight to emotions or you are a monster.
Do you believe that the sexes should be treated equally, that women should have the same political, legal, social and economic rights as men?
Yes or no will do.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
That is incorrect. Feminism merely means the belief in the advancement of women. Many people might be reasonable and have a more specific definition. The actual reasonable modern definition is still targeting gender inequality where it applies to women. It's ridiculous to try to say that it now encompasses all equality movements. It has always been about women's advancement and it always will be unless you think calling a pillow a bed is a good evolution of language. Many historical feminist movements were fair. For example women requesting the same voting rights as men. I have to stop you right away on your definition. You say equality. What does that mean exactly? It used to really be equal opportunities. That means if there's a race then everyone can participate. What it now appears to mean is that when running in the same race both women and men must all come in at the same place or all win as many medals/points as each other. Perhaps you leave it open with to define. I don't know. In any case many modern movements under feminism do turn out to be unfair. Many in the movement do simply want more and more rights, unending, for women. If you really want to define the movement and make it fit for purpose that's the problem you need to deal with. Those people. Not whether or not it is all encompassing.
The only obstacle to contributing to open source is not having an internet connection
I more or less get where you're going with that, but it is a bit more complex than internet vs. no internet. I have relatively quick internet and a good computer, but I'm not a very good contributor to OSS. I'm pretty technically literate, but my coding skills basically end at some basic batch/shell scripts and tweaking HTML. I simply don't have the mind to do it, and in college I got stuck in entry level classes for VB, Java, and assembler, with C++ in high school - and I hated every minute of every one of them. I would never do it optionally.
"But Voyager529, there are other ways to help! Donate to projects!" I know. I donate where I can; usually in the $10-$20 range per donation, but I do donate to at least one project a month that's provided some amount of usefulness. That's still a contribution, but requires more than an internet connection - it requires a Paypal account and money (gtfo with cryptocurrency mining as a contribution).
"We need testers and user feedback, Voyager529! That still requires nothing more than an internet connection, doesn't cost money, and you don't have to be a programmer to do it!" Not so fast. I do this for FreeNAS actually, or at least, I try to. As such, I need something to run FreeNAS *on* - it's not terribly helpful to run FreeNAS in a VM with no data to store. My 15TB NAS, a tiny little thing compared to the folks in /r/datahoarders, still cost about $900 for the initial build, though it's been a bit of a Ship-of-Thesseus situation such that only the PSU and the actual hard drives are original kit. Regardless, FreeNAS requires an actual NAS, and really if I were trying to be a hardcore tester, I'd have more than one of them so I could run nightly builds and stuff with no worry of data loss, but now we're talking about yet another investment. pfSense and other router distributions require hardware and a means to configure them as such (good luck with that for people with satellite internet or WISP connections), LAMP applications require web servers and domain knowledge of how to utilize them.
A desktop Linux distribution big enough to be a daily driver is a Linux distribution big enough to not need my contributions - there are precisely zero people on the Debian mailing list who give a s!!t what I have to say, but RebornOS is a bit small for me to feel comfortable installing on my primary computer, meaning I'd need a secondary one - which of course is still additional hardware and additional expense. Even so, if I'm going to use it with any level of efficacy to be a good tester, I need to be using it at least half the time, which means I need to be able to replicate data from one machine to the other, which now adds to the complexity of how daily tasks are being performed...in summary, being a tester/feedback participant for an OSS project implies "bring your own QA environment" - which is still more than an internet connection.
"Okay fine...but you can still help with documentation! You're pretty well-written and can help spruce up documents which have not been the best-maintained...and THAT definitely requires nothing more than an internet connection, so stop whining!" True...except it's not completely true. As a technically savvy end user, the areas of documentation that generally need the most work are the areas where common problems are preempted. Even if I were given access to the documents to edit (and yes, some projects do take the Wiki approach), general usability documentation should mostly be unnecessary if a project is written even a little bit well. If it's not, then the contribution is "here's how to make this function more readily apparent for end users", which can be helpful and sometimes can be the way to implement positive changes, but it's just as common for such things to end up as "wontfix" because the UX developer knows best. FAQs and troubleshooting guides are good places to start, but they require a w
You missed my point. "There are too many loud mouths that the movement has lost all sense of pragmatism and direction".
I am not going to address your whataboutism or false equivalency.
Perhaps you should pay less attention to the attention whores in any movement, and look at what the majority of the movement is about.
Because what the majority of the movement is about, in my opinion, has been overtaken by the loud mouths that has derided any noble cause it may have had. How many times do I have to hear about the gender pay gap before I recognize that the movement has been overtaken by loud mouth idiots devoid of principle because they bastardize statistics and science for their own tribal agenda and personal advancement?
Kind of sad that you dismiss the desire of women - comprising fifty-plus percent of the human race - to be treated as human beings with equal rights.
That's what feminism is. It's not about diminution of rights for males. It's about trying to ensure that there's a level playing field.
This is not a radical idea....countries which have taken steps to try to address gender imbalances often do better, as witness much of northern Europe. Ditto for treating people of different (in this case, mostly black/brown) morphology as humans. We're in a global economy where the success of a society is tied to the ability of that society to bring the best out of all of its citizens. This is why education, basic respect, tolerance, basic economic equity, et cetera matter....because that's where a society can eke out the incremental increase in performance that will enable it to prosper.
Societies which are highly stratified and winner-take-all can succeed in the short term but tend to devolve away from democracy and towards an encomienda system in which there are a few very rich people and the rest are poor. And don't construe this as my hating capitalism; I don't. I do, however, recognize that unregulated capitalism is a Hobbsian nightmare which ultimately does as much damage to society as any soi-disant communist oligarchy.....some regulation is needed to keep both economic power (business) and political power (government) in check.
But that's a moderate view, so at least the flames will come from both sides :-) .
"Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
Whereas in America, it's the other way around - with Google execs demanding that white men not be allowed to participate in conferences and firing anybody who suggests that men and women may be different in noticeable ways.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
Wait a second: how are you supposed to prove that you didn't demand a dowry?
Feminism != women.
There are plenty of women that do not like feminism and stand against it. Feminists do not speak for woman. That is a degrading and undermines the individual by taking away their autonomy and voice by tribalism and group identity. Treat women as individuals that can decide, act, and speak in their own self interest. Anything less is soft bigotry of low expectations.
I agree but it just seems that 'feminism' has been soiled by too many extremists that it has lost all sense pragmatism or direction. ... Feminism may not be cancer but it is infected with a malignancy that, IMO, is terminal to any redeeming quality.
The same could be said of American politics.
Do you believe that the sexes should be treated equally, that women should have the same political, legal, social and economic rights as men?
Yes or no will do.
Yes
Do you believe that the sexes should have 50% equal representation in every political, legal, social, economic sector of activity ?
Yes or no answer will do.
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Do you think that aren't already treated equally?
I ask you only follow one rule in answering: first world examples only.
Name one right (political, legal, social, or economic [although I'm not quite sure what a social right is, and I suspect that no one should be granted any social rights regardless]) that a woman does not have in the US that her male counterpart does have. Just one!
If you mean equal outcomes, then no I do not believe in that garbage. Otherwise. yes the difference is that I think we have it. Name a legal, political, social or economic right that women do not have.
Does the law apply equally to men and women? Yes. Check legal.
Do woman have suffrage and can hold political office? Yes. Check political.
Do women have the same civil rights, freedom of speech, property rights, and equal access to social goods and services as men? Yes. Check social. In fact they have access to better services than men soooo. Matriarchy? We need a movement to promote the social rights and services of men! A... Mens Rights Movement if you will. After all, you are motivated by principle, aren't you?
Can women get the same employment as men? Yes. Check economic.
Hooray! Feminism has achieved the noble goals of equality for women! Oh. Wait. I know what's really important as mansplained by the great feminist ally Trudeau. Damnatio memoriae of "mankind". "Mankind" needs to be stricken from memory and replaced with "Peoplekind"... because feminism. So glad we have an entire movement dedicated to this noble goal with people in power like Trudeau to make it happen. But MRM wanting abuse shelters for men? Sexism.
Feminism is it's own parody.
All women are just plain crabby and irritable. Studies have shown that it stems from bottling up those farts all day long.
Well, yeah, but in addition to feminism meaning "Hey, women are people, too", we have ridiculous things lumped in, too, like arguments that "all heterosexual sex is a man raping a woman" or "only men can be sexist".
Sadly, the latter types of things poison the well for the worthy goals of equal rights.
Thanks for all your posts. You are spot on.
Just 7,327 more times... it'll start to lose mainstream appeal by then.
"Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
The entire movement isn't rendered obsolete because several vocal sub-communities are taking extreme views. Any small community basically becomes more extreme in its views over time if it isn't exposed to reality. The problem is systemic in various causes ranging from feminism to atheism, various theisms (fundamental Christianity/Islam/Judaism/etc.), charitable organisations, environment-conscious groups, animal welfare (PETA), etc. This doesn't render any of the causes lost, it simply means they need to fight harder to drown out the voices of those more extreme sects.
You should never yield a movement because extreme people come in every so often. You also may want to reconsider automatic judgement of someone based on a particular view (such as a perceived gender pay gap) as in their case they might be right, even if they might be wrongly attempting to generalise.
^^ What Midnight Thunder said.
"Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
National Socialism also stands for something completely different than all the horrors that happened under its name.
National Socialism isn't about shoving people into concentration camps.
National Socialism isn't about mass genocide.
But as always actions and results speak louder than words.
Bull. Feminism is, as the GP asserts, a range of political movements. Some have turned as you describe, but others still have valid points, and by painting them all with a single brush you are playing into the hands of the extremists by making it an "us vs them" war.
The key point to remember is that a political movement, once established, is - well, established. It becomes a social institution, a source of jobs and prestige and recognition and networking. Once you get into such a structure, there is a strong incentive not to declare "mission accomplished, let's disband now". And so any successful movement has built-in incentives to grow, no matter what happens. This is similar to medieval empires in which nobles were rewarded for conquering new land: they grow ferociously for a while, but this incentive spells trouble in the long run. (The Ottoman empire is the archetypical example.)
When did you last hear of, say, a university department saying "come to think of it, our subject is useless, let's disband"? Or an academic paper saying "this subject is now conclusively done, no further work required"?
define the range and name the good political movements under the umbrella of feminism.
At this point I give it > 50% that feminist activists set those up so they'd have a topic to complain about and claim sexism. Have you seen how many times their high publicity complaints turn out to either be completely made up, or so mischaracterized it completely misrepresents the original action. Also feminism is an antagonistic political group, it's highly debateable how representative it is of "women" at all. My experience is feminism is just as hostile towards women that won't repeat their narrative as they claim sexist men are.
Treat them like everybody else, but don't be a crass misogynistic asshole in how you talk. If you're real and approachable sooner or later you're going to know far more women online than you really wanted to. Some of them will even hit on you. Some of them will even hit on you for bdsm related cybersex, or real sex.
While the above discussed real experiences, your mileage may vary. You might find yourself at the mercy of a dom, cuckolded, or holding the emotional baggage of women who are busy dating other shitty guys and then whining to you about it while never actually giving you a shot, because 'why ruin the good thing of just being friends'? :)
Seriously though there are and have been plenty of women in open source dating back decades. However most of them are not your 'average' female, and most of them keep their 'women life' and their 'techie life' separate, for the simple reason that most women didn't have interest then and still don't have interest now. What passes for a nerd, geek, etc today is so diluted that we are affirmative action-ing male, female, and ethnic minorities into tech because 'it looked cool on tv', rather than first stimulating their interests with realistic examples and finding out if they fall into either STEM, or more intuitive service-based computing domains. (I separate the two because some peopel are more on the scientific/analytic side of things, and others are better on the help desk/learning how apps function side of things without the scientific background. More the art of computers to the STEM-based science of them.)
There is nothing stopping any woman from contributing to open Source. All they have to do is write the code and post to github.
..
> At this point I give it > 50% that feminist activists set those up so they'd have a topic to complain about and claim sexism
You would be correct. There's a set of feminist activists who attended techie conferences specifically with the intend of finding sexual harassment. They then use evidence of such harassment as a pretext to getting the male organizers removed. for a typical example see this from July 2012. If you ever come across such at a conference, record all such encounters, as you may need it as evidence to clear your name later on.
Feminism represents women, just like the Klan represents caucasians.
Does the law apply equally to men and women? Yes. Check legal.
AHA CHECKMATE! You're wrong.
Men receive on average longer sentences, up to 63% longer sentences and are twice as likely to get convicted (sauce : https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx).
Male privilege is real!
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
My favorite example of this was a recent article in a major Canadian paper.. it was an essay titled "Well, are you a bad feminist?", which was in response to an original letter from a prominent author titled "Am I a bad feminist?".
A good read if you want something to make you puke. Here's three young twentysomethings calling a woman who actually had to fight for real women's rights a bad feminist. These people have nothing left to fight for and are grasping at straws to maintain their victim status. Smart women (usually the true feminists) aren't having any of the bullshit.
You need a 'code of conduct' for your event in Delhi? Seems to say a lot about the city/country and maybe that's really the heart of the problem as opposed to the 'open source community'.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
I don't think feminism is small by any stretch, furthermore, which feminist community doesn't platform the gender pay gap? You say they are sub-communities and that would be fine if the example were something like "any penetrative sex is rape" but I am talking about mainstream positions that are nearly universal for all feminists that has been parroted by some of the most powerful people on Earth. I find it hard to believe that most feminists have been co-opted by "pay gap feminists" when it looks like it is a staple of feminist ideology and it is Trudeau and Obama advocating for such "extreme" positions.
I haven't seen anything worth while that western feminism has done lately (many decades) that redeems the rest of the bad things it has done. What is the point of the movement that advocates for the populate election of Senators? Again, I wouldn't and probably many others wouldn't think that way if the movement actually did something to help women in need instead of chasing the boogeyman patriarchy.
To me, the entire feminist movement in the west is a bad joke. Yes, all of it. It would rather chase boogeyman, make asinine claims of patriarchy, bastardize science, and police language in absurd ("peoplekind"... really? That is important?? A made up word because self described feminists do not understand etymology) ways than actually help people. There is nothing proud about being a feminist today in the west. It's a self branded scarlet letter that carries more baggage than a airliner.
You should never yield a movement because extreme people come in every so often
If the movement is made up of nearly entirely of extreme people. I disregard it. If you are a feminist trying to save feminism. Good Luck. At some point Old Yeller is gone and needs to be put down. He saved the family but times change.
You also may want to reconsider automatic judgement of someone based on a particular view (such as a perceived gender pay gap) as in their case they might be right
If they are right they can prove it in court. I don't have to do anything or make any judgement because it is already the law of the land. I don't need to listen and believe when I can have evidence and facts. I don't care if they are right or wrong because it's on them to prove it in court. Changing the law based on bad science and bad statistics that attack meritocracy is fundamentally different and wrong.
Do you make automatic judgements for a Republican? A pro-lifer? A Christian? The pro-life movement has surely had its extreme members yet it hasn't been plagued by the same malignancy of feminism.
Ha ha charade you are! Technically, the law still applies equally because there isn't a legal distinction made and the same law is applied to both genders and in the eyes of the law (the written language) they are equal. It is in the eyes of the prosecutor, jury, and judge that they are not which is what you are addressing. Specifically, prosecution, verdict, and sentencing. If you apply mandatory minimums that 63% would probably disappear or be reduced considerably (haven't done reading on it, probably key word here) because the law prescribes the sentence without judicial bias and is written without gender consideration. However, that doesn't address the conviction rate because that would rely on the prosecutor and jury.
IOW, the law is the only gender neutral part of our legal system we have because we have explicitly written it as neutral while the other pillars of justice are based entirely on human fallibility and bias. Legal equality only guarantees that we are equal by law. That does not necessarily address judicial independence, prosecutorial discretion and certainly not the jury.
But more over, you are right I just like to play devils advocate.
" Legal equality only guarantees that we are equal by law"
errr... "Legal equality only guarantees that we are treated equal by the law" is a better way to phrase it. Murder is murder regardless of gender.
Do you have even one bit of evidence that the entire movement is about that? Go on, provide it, otherwise admit that your opinion is baseless.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Me: "Because what the majority of the movement is about, in my opinion, has been overtaken by the loud mouths "
Me: "How many times do I have to hear about the gender pay gap before I recognize that the movement has been overtaken by loud mouth idiots? "
You: "Do you have even one bit of evidence that the entire movement is about that? "
My question is a subjective question but one that is not answered by baseless accusations. Your question does not appear to address the same point and you seem to misunderstand what I am saying and moving the goal post. But I will answer it based on what I said not what you think I said.
I can count on one hand the number of self identified feminists against the gender pay gap. An example of a loud mouth idiot who has overtaken the movement; Carrie Gracie.
The fact that you see the mission accomplished across the board, when there's still discrimination going on, suggests that it's still necessary. It's not necessary to get rid of sexist laws, by and large, but continuing work on attitudes is useful. Sexism was heavily ingrained into the culture not that long ago, and such things die hard.
Some people seized on the gender pay gap as evidence of sexism, not wanting to go deeper. Some people seize on the first reports that say the gender pay gap is due to certain reasons, not wanting to go deeper. For example, pay varies between jobs, and reports on the pay gap often say that men go into higher-paid occupations. Why are those occupations paid more? Historically, female-dominated professions tended to pay less than male-dominated professions, for no obvious reason. Are we truly beyond that? I'd say more research is needed.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
There's a problem with how you're wording it.
Men and women, to a large extent, have the same rights. That doesn't mean society isn't sexist, that they can do the same things.
Historical example: For a long time, women had the same right to vote and the same right to run for public office as men. Generally, they didn't run. Minnesota's first Congresswoman lost her seat over a "Come home, Coya!" campaign that was based on the idea that women belonged in the house, not the House. Obviously, things are much better now. Are female politicians still at a disadvantage because they're female? My guess would be "yes", but it's hard to find good evidence.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Being treated equal by the law is not being treated equally by the justice system. There's all sorts of room for prejudice by police, prosecutors, and judges. The net result seems to be that men will be treated more harshly than women, despite the law being the same.
Murder is murder, but there's lesser crimes that appear to demonstrate sexual discrimination.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
National Socialism stood for getting rid of Jews, and treating other races as inferiors. They weren't all that subtle about it.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Most Indian coders say they are self-taught
https://qz.com/1187943/most-in...
Casteism
Atheism isn't a cause, just so you know.
when there's still discrimination going on, suggests that it's still necessary
You are never going to get rid of discrimination 100%. That doesn't matter though because it is already the law of the land. If someone was discriminated against they can prove it in court for damages. I don't need to do anything, have an opinion, or make a judgement. I can have facts and evidence. Merely stating the fact that equality that has been achieved is not any kind of suggestion that the obsolete movement that initially promoted equality is still relevant. Is the movement to promote the popular election of Senators relevant and still necessary? Some random jack ass, like me, with an opinion doesn't suggest anything. You thinking it does is delusional and almost like a cult of personality toward feminism.
No one cares if you succeed or fails. If you faced illegal discrimination, prove it.
attitudes and culture
The irony is that feminism has pushed and won so much that in reaction it spawned is the MRA and MGTOW. Feminism is its own enemy for attitudes and culture. If you want to change attitudes and culture by all means go for it. It's part of that "no one cares if you succeed of fail" I was talking about earlier. Star Wars can push their feminist agenda and I can forgo seeing their film. Win-win. I am not a dick based on gender so I have done my part. Mission accomplished.
What am I supposed to do? Jump on band wagons and witch hunts to feel smug and superior? Honestly, considering the number scummy male feminists I have heard about that have abused women it's hard to take your "need to change attitudes and culture" seriously. Especially when you have have movements like #metoo turn into witch hunts used by celebrities to virtue signal to the world. No thanks. I don't act or need to act like celebrities and male feminists virtue signaling their hypocrisy. My actions speak louder than their words.
Ever been involved in a case where you were illegally discriminated against? I have. It's not nearly that simple. The recruiter told me they were going to extend a job offer, I was asked for my birth date for a background investigation, and then nobody had ever said anything about a job offer, no sir, and nobody was interested in talking to me. I was then, as I am now, in the 40-65 age band, where discrimination is illegal.
I filed a complaint with the appropriate state agency, and then the company replied, saying pretty much what I'd claimed. I got a lawyer ($3K up front, and 1/3 of any winnings), who wrote a reply to that. The claim was denied based on their never having said anything about an offer (and the company had verified in its reply that they did mention it), and it wasn't worth going further.
Approximately no employer is going to fire you and cite grounds of race, sex, religion, or refusing sexual advances. They will come up with another reason. Fighting this will be at least moderately expensive, and it will be uncertain.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
> Atheism isn't a cause, just so you know.
Nope. It's an effect!
Unfortunately, in US, it is not a binary answer. Women are believed no matter what or how nonsensical the claims. Men are always assumed to be in the wrong in any she vs he situation.
There is no "guilty till proven innocent" and men are instantly convicted in the court of public opinion.
A case-in-point from my own experience; I got divorced in (c) 2004 for which I was awarded full and legal custody of our 3 kids. As such, I was awarded child support. I had to fill out paperwork via the Social Services system in order to get child support garnished from my ex. The pre-printed paperwork provided by the Department of Social Services had pre-printed "father" across the entire form in all locations so as to garnish men's wages. Ie: "Father's Address", "Father's employer", etc. Also, several of my friends who have been through divorce have experienced when things are beginning to not go in favor of the woman, several have brought up the "abuser" stigma which without any substantiation immediately nullifies any male rights.
Equal rights need to go both ways.