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Facial Recognition Is Accurate, if You're a White Guy (nytimes.com)

Facial recognition technology is improving by leaps and bounds. Some commercial software can now tell the gender of a person in a photograph. When the person in the photo is a white man, the software is right 99 percent of the time. But the darker the skin, the more errors arise -- up to nearly 35 percent for images of darker skinned women, the New York Times reported, citing a new study. From the report: These disparate results, calculated by Joy Buolamwini, a researcher at the M.I.T. Media Lab, show how some of the biases in the real world can seep into artificial intelligence, the computer systems that inform facial recognition. In modern artificial intelligence, data rules. A.I. software is only as smart as the data used to train it. If there are many more white men than black women in the system, it will be worse at identifying the black women. One widely used facial-recognition data set was estimated to be more than 75 percent male and more than 80 percent white, according to another research study.

284 comments

  1. Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So at least white men have that going for them. We should be grateful for it.

    1. Re: Facial recognition by sycodon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

      Combine that with the typically horrendous lighting video cams face and you have a situation where recognition fails.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re: Facial recognition by bmo · · Score: 4, Funny

      What's the difference between porn and erotica?

      Lighting.

      --
      BMO

    3. Re: Facial recognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Most of the time these cameras would work just fine if they adjusted the exposure properly. They have auto exposure but it's tuned either for general photography or white skin.

      The fix isn't that complex, and some kind of calibration could be done when setting up face recognition.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    4. Re: Facial recognition by hey! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't really think that is true, but it is true you need different lighting to pick up the nuances in a black face. Movies and TV shows for years have lit black actors in ways that wash out their faces by using rules of thumb that work for white faces. It's only in the last few years that we're seeing black actors properly lit.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    5. Re: Facial recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      They have auto exposure but it's tuned either for general photography or white skin

      You mean that they overexpose black skin ? This means that the correct setting would produce darker results, with even less contrast.

    6. Re: Facial recognition by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      Underexposed, not over developed. The sensors are not getting enough light. You would have to increase the amount the light via shutter speed or aperture. But if you tuned it for darker faces, white faces would be washed out and the problem would be reversed.

    7. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They auto exposure algorithms they utilize are actually super simple and optimize for *average* scene intensity to be near the middle of the dynamic range of the camera. This isn't always optimal, but it *is* computationally efficient. The effect is that white people can be overexposed while the rest of the scene is very dark. It's actually very difficult to create an all-times optimal exposure control; they even screw it up at football games!

    8. Re: Facial recognition by arth1 · · Score: 2

      That's beside the point in this context, because with most facial recognition cameras, you don't control the light. Most of the time, it's going to be daylight, and sometimes street lights or store lights.

      That darker objects reflect fewer photons is always going to be the case. That's not racial bias.

      Fitness trackers with optical heart readers have a similar problem, where the light does not penetrate as well for darker skin. Some auto-adjust, with the unfortunate side effect of shorter battery life for dark skinned people. And some blast at too high intensity for everyone, and cause burn marks over time for the fairest skinned people, and make their heart beat harder to read.

      There's no real solution that fits everyone. People are different, and "one size fits most" is not going to be the optimum solution for either facial recognition, iris scanners, optical pulse monitors, or anything else. Accepting that someone from Iceland is likely going to absorb less photons than someone from South Sudan, and thus optical based equipment will work differently isn't racial injustice.

    9. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But this would not explain why the software works better on white males than on white females.

    10. Re: Facial recognition by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      >Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out

      That's all there is to this. Let's go home. Seriously.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    11. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's written by white males?

    12. Re: Facial recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      If the cameras have their exposure calibrated for a white face (middle gray), but they are shown a black face, they will automatically increase light to make the face look middle gray again, and the face will be overexposed.

    13. Re: Facial recognition by hey! · · Score: 2

      Actually it is on point with regard to testing.

      Anyhow, what you're saying black faces have less luminance -- well sure. That says nothing about contrast. The idea that there's less detail there to be seen is a result of looking at poorly lit photographs.

      The upshot is that if the problem is in the sensor's ability to handle a certain luminance range, by that theory the algorithms should perform better on black faces in very brightly lit conditions.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    14. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ah yes, here comes AmiMoJo, expert at everything...so long as there is a social justice angle to the story. If not, suddenly he no longer wants to help, no longer an expert, and does not contribute.

      Someday I hope to have reasonable people running slashdot and prevent sockpuppet accounts from getting mod points.

    15. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As you should know, that makes everything a blur. You have to choose between dark, clear photos or blury bright ones. Unless everyone is perfectly still.

    16. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's more than enough contrast for a convolutional neural net to work with. You could probably turn it all into 4 bit grayscale before training and still get excellent results.

      The explanation isn't what you propose, but unbalanced training sets. Failing any face is equally bad for the training algorithm. Whether its errors are equally divided among all subgroups, or concentrated in one of them, is equally good for the algorithm. Since it has more data on whites, it can profit more from focusing on features characteristic of them.

      You can change the training to penalize having a high error rate for subgroups. But this comes with tradeoffs. Better is to get more training data from the difficult subgroups, and train a better algorithm overall. The best way to get an algorithm that makes few errors on blacks (or any other subgroup) may just be to get an algorithm that makes few errors, period.

    17. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Come on. Everyone knows this is white privilege at its purest.

    18. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, light skinned people have more variations in facial shape than do other groups. Second is darker skinned people. Orientals have the fewest.

      OTOH, in any particular area, the people from outside the area are likely to have more variation, because they have a wider variety of ancestors.

      That said, this *is* a bit strange, because the greatest genetic variation is among the population native to Africa. (Note I'm not even including the Australian aborigines. Which are a part of the facial variation of the darker skinned people.) So one would expect the largest variation among the darker skinned people.

      Additionally the homogeneity of the orientals is probably due to their long period of civilization. This is a guess, but it's a reasonable one. So there was a longer period of undisturbed gene flow among groups. Even so there are distinct sub-groups, just not as many as among other categories.

      A problem with this analysis is that I didn't include the population of the Indian sub-continent, as I couldn't figure out in which group to place them. They have darker skin colors, but have facial features that more closely align with the lighter skinned peoples. This is readily explained by historical analysis, but it does make categorization difficult.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    19. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 3, Informative

      The Summary said it was because they were underrepresented in the training data set.

      That's what you should first assume when an AI system fails at some particular kind of categorization, so it should hardly be surprising.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    20. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a white man I claim racism against white men. Why should people if color automatically get better privacy protection simply due to technical limitations? Perhaps all facial recognition should be deemed illegal, you know to prevent racism.

    21. Re: Facial recognition by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

      Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

      Combine that with the typically horrendous lighting video cams face and you have a situation where recognition fails.

      This is precisely why people say diversity in IT is a good idea. Developers primarily develop for themselves, so if you are missing a large selection of the population in your company then there is a blindness there to those people's needs.

    22. Re: Facial recognition by NeoMorphy · · Score: 2

      Sorry, I misunderstood your previous statement. What you just said makes sense. If I understand what you are saying, attempting to compensate by overexposing will cause the face to look unnatural.

      You're right, they shouldn't overexpose as a solution since the point was to identify people from a normal picture. As opposed to using over exposed pictures that are focusing on image recognition. Unless it was an HDR+ picture, it would look really bad. Even an HDR+ picture would have issues unless people wanted portraits of themselves with unnatural skin tones.

    23. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was told that people are people and skin tone does not matter. If skin tone is just a different level of melanin, then all needs of the population will be met regardless of the skin tone of the developers.

    24. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, riiiiiigh.

      To paraphrase you: "boo hoo, it's too haaaaaard."

      I really hope you aren't a programmer.

      If black coders had developed facial recognition algorithms, I doubt this would be an issue.

    25. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lighter colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

      That didn't stop them.

    26. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a difference between, "diversity is sometimes a good idea" and "accept these arbitrary diversity quotas and the rationale behind them, or we will destroy your career and life."

    27. Re: Facial recognition by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 0

      Black women look a lot like men. No training set is going to overcome this fundamental fact.

    28. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah fuck that guy!

    29. Re: Facial recognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Strange you would make this about social justice, and not just an interesting technology problem. TFA doesn't mention racism or anything... It's almost like you are some kind of social justice obsessed warrior who has to bring it into every conversation.

      Have to agree with you about the sock puppets though.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    30. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, light skinned people have more variations in facial shape than do other groups. Second is darker skinned people. Orientals have the fewest.

      Do you have source for that? Also I don't think "orientals" is the technical term.

    31. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares if it's the technical term?

    32. Re: Facial recognition by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

      It's not the preferred nomenclature!

    33. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Social retard warriors strike again. Maybe itâ(TM)s because you canâ(TM)t see shit in the dark.

    34. Re: Facial recognition by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      This does not seem accurate to me. I'd think that a video camera, having many more bits of resolution than the human eye, would do *better* at seeing color than the human eye.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    35. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, this is from multiple different sources, not one, and different pieces were in different places. The scientific stuff was from places like Science News, and I only read the printed edition, so I don't have links to ANY of it.

      And no, orientals isn't a technical term, but I wanted to lump Melanesians, Polynesians, Chinese, Mongols, Korean, Japanese, and various south-east Asians together without including Australian aborigines or their close relatives. This isn't a closely related group, but it's a group that has had a lot of connected gene-flow over the centuries. Among these, I think the most variant are the Polynesians...though that's a guess. Even so, what I said doesn't quite fit for folks at the edges, and applies more closely as you get closer to central China. (Also, e.g., Japanese doesn't include such as the Ainu. I'm not sure where the Tibetans fit. etc.)

      Were I to guess the reason, I'd guess that it's because the lighter skinned peoples tended to live in small groups that moved around and were slightly more xenophobic than the orientals, while the Africans tended to stay in one place in small groups that were near close relatives. So neither of the two mixed much (relatively speaking). Also most of the African groups tended to be rather conservative, in the sense of resistant to change, which I attribute to low energy cause by the prevalence of parasites and diseases.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    36. Re: Facial recognition by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      Reread your comment higher up the thread and try following the NPR link; the person ehose work is being reported is very much making this about social justice by saying that it is the fault of the code not being inclusive. If I was in her shoes, I would not consider this a bug but a definite feature given the privacy concerns facial recognition software has caused.

      As for the study itself... I would suspect the results are a combination of natural contrast, differing amounts of facial variation between ethnic groups and sexes...and this researcher likely being yet another one that forgets races other than Black & White exist.

      I suspect it's not just the contrast issue on the technical side, though. I wouldn't actually be that surprised given the hardwired elements of beauty standards if males of any ethnic group had a greater degree of variation in facial structure compared to the females--meaning that the issue may not be the lack of inclusiveness that the researcher claims, but rather merely that once again White men are the low-hanging fruit as they have more variation and good natural contrast. In fact, since I would be quite surprised if physical anthropology cannot give us full stats for variation rates and ranges in all groups, the degree to which White males might constitute 'easy mode' for facial recognition software should even be quantifiable...

    37. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asians don't like to be called "orientals". That's for rugs and food. Just enlightening you.

    38. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but Japs hate being called Orientals... probably more than they hate being called Japs. Why not just use "Asian" or "East Asian and Pacific Islander?" Australian aboriginals aren't Asian, they're Australian.

      Mongoloid, however, would include all of those, but includes the Inuit and other Alaska Natives and probably other Canadian Natives.

      Not to say that your argument doesn't have merit, but some people won't even look because you called 'em Orientals.

    39. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but the Native Americans (I'm not sure about the Innuit) belong with the light skinned people. Possibly the first migration, and possibly the last migration, into North America were different, but the vast majority fit with the light skinned people. Skin color is only a simple genetic change, and living in areas with lots of sun and few clothes will quickly cause a darker pigmentation to evolve. (I think it's only a change to one regulatory gene.) The first migration we can't say much about because they seem to have either died out or been totally absorbed. (I haven't heard of any studies of DNA found in their bones. I suspect they haven't been done. Some of the later ones have been done and were fairly clearly related to the northern Asiatic genepool, and I'm pretty sure that means the light skinned people.

      That said, some mixing wouldn't be a real surprise. I'm rather sure the Innuit used to go back and forth across the Bering strait all the time. And I rather suspect that the Aleutian islanders are as closely related to the Kuril islanders as to the mainland neighbors...or at least used to be before national boundaries caused travel restrictions. So for the Innuit to be Oriental would be no big surprise. That said, the Innuit used to go on long oceanic hunts, and the Bering strait isn't that wide, but sometimes storms will render it impassible. So I'm sure there was a lot of back and forth.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    40. Re: Facial recognition by jayesel · · Score: 1

      Well, the real question is what are you calibrating lighting against? This has been a problem with TV and print media for some time. Ask black actors from the 60's about the problems they had in lighting and filming darker skin. Makeup wasn't designed for black people, and the lighting certainly didn't evolve with people of color in mind. It's simple, white people were exclusive in these domains in this country forever, and as technology evolved around these domains, the built in bias determined zero consideration of anything other than "white" skin. It's not conscious it's institutional and has been, since forever, in this country. I mean the Egyptians, in their hieroglyphs, didn't have this problem with darker skin, go figure. This is an old problem, and it's only obvious now because people of color have equal access to the technology, but unfortunately are not well represented in tech at all levels. Trust me if Steve Jobs was black or a darker skin tone, that iPhone camera and every app would work a lot differently on darker skin. Snapchat might even work for me so I could put some pink ears on my head.

    41. Re: Facial recognition by dwpro · · Score: 1

      As you say it's an interesting technological challenge, and no doubt that's the true focus. It is total happenstance that in the 2nd picture the researcher is featured against a whiteboard with the terms 'Racism', 'Sexism', 'Implicit Bias', 'LGBTQ Prejudice' and dubbed 'an advocate in the new field of “algorithmic accountability.”'

      --
      Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
    42. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea how business works. If there is a deficiency in your product it reduces your marketability and thus your potential revenue. A team of white male developers that are developing facial recognition software will want it to work for all shades of skin because a failure to do so is a significant product defect that reduces utility and value to the customer. The fact that they'll initially test it during early development on their own faces doesn't change the fact that they'll want it to be as widely marketable as possible. In truth, your declarations about how diversity is the fix are the racist ones here; you assume that some level of racism is the default when reality does not work that way, especially since even poor black people spend money on things and that's money that could potentially come to the company if the developed system works for those people too.

    43. Re: Facial recognition by nctritech · · Score: 1

      Let me know when your "black coders" become imaging sensor engineers. You can't just magically code around limits set by the laws of physics.

    44. Re: Facial recognition by nctritech · · Score: 1

      Why is it that no one using the word "contrast" here seems to understand what the hell that word means? Light colors, dark colors...neither of those alone provide contrast. Contrast is the difference between high and low luminance areas in the same image. If someone has dark skin or light skin then the skin itself doesn't provide much contrast because it's mostly the same color anyway. However, lighter skin DOES provides very strong contrast against darker lips, shadows caused by light not being uniformly projected such as under nostrils or under eyebrows or in the contours of the ears, dark eyebrows and eyelashes and hair, a pair of dark-framed eyeglasses, and so on. Dark skin reflects significantly less light which means that these areas of contrast for light skin have far less contrast against the dark skin. Black beside dark brown will be harder to see than black against peach or olive or pink or yellow.

      Face-detection software relies on the simple contrast of several facial features mostly around the eyes to lock on to a face; facial recognition requires vast amounts of information beyond that which are more likely to be too lacking in contrast for dark-skinned faces to make out. It doesn't take very much underexposure in typical indoor shooting conditions for a black face to look mostly like a noisy macroblock-mangled oval with eyes and teeth to facial recognition software. That's not racism, that's just how light works, and given that most pictures to be recognized are likely to be casually shot I see no way to magically code around such problems.

    45. Re: Facial recognition by bmo · · Score: 1

      "I mean the Egyptians, in their hieroglyphs, didn't have this problem with darker skin, go figure."

      This is fucking late, but...

      They had to come up with makeup for Lena Horne, and they called it "light Egyptian." They couldn't call it "makeup for dark skin" or "Lena's Makeup" or some such because it was that "exotic."

      I remember the interview she had on 60 Minutes and she chuckled about the absurdity.

      --
      BMO

  2. more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Software is RACIST!!! Fucking white men.

    1. Re:more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Software is RACIST!!! Fucking white men.

      No, thanks. I think I'll limit my activities of that nature to flesh and blood human women without giving a damn what colour their skin is.

    2. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, before we try to answer: Did you just suggest it is better to be racist, because you assault less women?

    3. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *fewer

    4. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generally white men fit the Physician and Physicist categories and black men fit the rapper and rapist categories.

      Except for Brock Turner... he is no doubt a rapper...

    5. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A rappist?

    6. Re:more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fucking white men would actually help. If more black women fucked white men their children will be recognized more readily.

    7. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    8. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The preferred term is "rapper."

    9. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      less - in total body mass.

    10. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *fewer

      "Don't call me that. Not yet." - Donald Trump

  3. Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    much to their dismay

    1. Re:Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wasn't there an article here on /. about some computer program classing some dark skinned people as gorillas?

    2. Re:Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Detective, we appear to have a match for the suspect. Someone called "Harambe".

  4. Colorimetric algorithm rather than geometric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like the algorithm is picking up on subtle color changes for its classification. With a wider dynamic range it may do better. Perhaps a transformation from true color to a false color would fix it

    1. Re:Colorimetric algorithm rather than geometric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean from dark green to light green?

    2. Re: Colorimetric algorithm rather than geometric? by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Most algorithms I've seen convert to black and white before further classification. Color is mostly useless and quite expensive (4x as much data) to computers that use geometric features to classify pictures.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    3. Re: Colorimetric algorithm rather than geometric? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the CNN type, but this does happen on vanilla algorithms pretty consistently. If one of the convolutions picks a gradient region within the grayscale that too heavily skews towards one skin tone set of training data, then the result will likely be biased. Properly weighting/coding the inputs with a color filter can fix that as a means to neutralize the image and balance the contrast. I dont think a full RGB value would help much unless this were a hyperspectral image that had more meaningful data that could contribute to classification. I dont mean for this to sound racial, but for an algorithm classifying african, asian, european caucasian, etc., I have seen pretty strong results for data matching "like" ethnic backgrounds, but generalizing poorly across the spectrum. For the generalized solution, a first pass classifier picked out the ethnicity and then ran the respective classifier for that branch, which resulted in a very good classification overall. I think the takeaway is that the algorithm needs some shortcuts to try to mimic our own abilities when generalizing over wide data sets.

  5. So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    For catching criminals then?

    1. Re:So it will be no good by serviscope_minor · · Score: 0, Troll

      For catching criminals then?

      Trump's a white guy isn't he?

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:So it will be no good by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sigh... Currently at Moderation: +4 70% Insightful 30% Interesting

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    3. Re: So it will be no good by liefer · · Score: 0

      Do you have a source for that claim? Or are you just being racist against white people?

    4. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Do you have a source for that claim? Or are you just being racist against white people?

      Are there sources? We could provide sources for you all day.

      https://www.alternet.org/civil...

      http://abcnews.go.com/Politics...

      https://www.ussc.gov/research/...

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The first source is a story.

      The second is a political piece from the "politics" news section.

      The third is not peer-reviewed, nor isolates for variables such as severity of crime, prior offenses, different judiciary systems, or impact of criminal offense.

      Do you even science bro?

    6. Re:So it will be no good by arth1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Trump's a white guy isn't he?

      Orange is the new white?

    7. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      This is supported by reality, where white countries have been rewarded with the best, most-coveted civilisations.

      You've never been to Texas, have you?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The first source is a story.

      Yes, a story listing examples of how white people can point guns at cops and live and black people cannot.

      The second is a political piece from the "politics" news section.

      Yes, a piece from the "politics" news section that includes citations to peer-reviewed studies.

      The third is not peer-reviewed

      The Commission's study was most certainly peer-reviewed.

      https://www.albany.edu/scj/doc...

      "The Commission used two methodologies to examine the updated data. The first
      methodology was the one the Commission used in the Booker Report. The second
      methodology was developed after the Booker Report was released to the public. Both
      methodologies were reviewed by two groups of outside researchers and academicians.
      The preliminary results of the analysis were then peer reviewed prior to release to ensure
      that the methodologies used were appropriate and the results correctly stated. "

      Emphasis added.

      nor isolates for variables such as severity of crime, prior offenses, different judiciary systems, or impact of criminal offense.

      Sure it does. Read through the commission's report again.

      "Based on this analysis, and after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to
      sentencing
      , the following observations can be made:"

      Again, emphasis added.

      https://www.albany.edu/scj/doc...

      Do you even science bro?

      Do you even read, bro?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the place flooded by non-whites fleeing their safe, advanced and plentiful homelands? dumbass

    10. Re:So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now, there's no need to stoop to the level of the left-wing racists.

    11. Re: So it will be no good by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Statistically, they have better lives, and lead a more valuable and productive existence. Millenia of archeological proof.

      People in Africa had at least 50000 years of head start to make their lives more productive. They have plenty of natural resources too. It was their own choice to continue with tribal warfare until present day.

      white countries have been rewarded with the best, most-coveted civilisations

      They started with nothing, and made those themselves.

    12. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Kentucky

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    13. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want a real (white) shithole, look no farther than West Virginia.

    14. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When you expect others to cite, you expect the citations to match perfectly.

      Lets hold you up to your own standards.

      Yes, a story

      Worthless drivel meant for emotional, not rational appeal in order to muddy the waters.

      that includes citations to peer-reviewed studies.

      Ajit Pai and the Trump administration used peer-review citations too, and you criticized them for abusing them. I shall lay your claim upon that piece as well.

      The preliminary results of the analysis were then peer reviewed prior to release to ensure
      that the methodologies used were appropriate and the results correctly stated.

      If you wish to pretend that you are anything more than a liberal arts major pretending to know science, you must understand these words. Peer-review of preliminary results is not peer-review of the published paper. Peer-review of the methodologies and necessary conclusions based on that methodology is merely tangentially related to the correctness of the entire piece. If you had a science degree you would know that.

      after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to sentencing

      Claiming "a variety of factors" is quite vague and wishy washy isn't it? Be honest, if someone came to you with a ciation claiming global warming to be false "after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to climate science" would you be convinced? Because that exact process has already happened and you replied with childish trolling.

      You are nothing more than a myopic hypocrite actively seeking confirmation of your biases, devoid of critical thought.

      I repeat.

      Do you even science bro?

    15. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus....

    16. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      âoeAll the white men are wealthy and privilegedâ

      LOL

    17. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, a story listing examples of how white people can point guns at cops and live and black people cannot.

      lol. If you're stupid enough to think that a cop with a gun pointed at him gives a shit about the colour of the hand holding it, you can't possibly expect to be taken seriously in these kinds of discussions.

    18. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're stupid enough to think that a cop with a gun pointed at him gives a shit about the colour of the hand holding it

      Of course he gives a shit. There are centuries of examples in the United States to police giving white people the benefit of the doubt when black people would have been put under the jailhouse.

      I can't believe you're stupid enough to think that kind of long-standing prejudice just suddenly went away in the past 20 years.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Of course he gives a shit.

      "Oh hello Mr. Fellow White Citizen. May I inquire as to why you are pointing that firearm at my head? I'm sure you mean no harm, but you understand that I must ask."

      lmao. You have some incredibly entertaining delusions, buds.

    20. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Andrew Finch, the white man recently shot dead by a SWAT team - was not even holding a gun.

      If you think prejudice and bigotry lurks behind every action you are either genuinely stupid, or willfully ignorant. Take your pick. Either way, that's how intelligent people see you.

    21. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    22. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what's wrong with that?

    23. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's crazy. Who would have thought that a demographic which is insanely more likely to murder others is also way more likely to be killed by police.

      It's almost like there's something connecting those two statistics ...

    24. Re: So it will be no good by swillden · · Score: 1

      âoeAll the white men are wealthy and privilegedâ

      LOL

      You missed the "in societies where" that qualified the bit you quoted. I'm not claiming that any such exist (nor am I claiming that they don't), just that in such a society a face recognition algorithm that only works on white guys wouldn't be much use in catching criminals.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    25. Re:So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With this technology, we might actually be able to prosecute someone over the subprime mortgage fiasco.

    26. Re:So it will be no good by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Rich white psychopaths always have the option of becoming CEOs.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    27. Re: So it will be no good by rtb61 · · Score: 0

      What is it with all this American whitey stuff all of a sudden. Seriously you guys can bugger off. I am olive skinned, in my youth, you easy burning pink skins called me wog, dagoe and spic, now you call me fucking white, fuck you. I am olive skinned, I am a wog, you pink skins made your mess, now you can lie (tee hee) in it.

      Why are you being sucked in by the corporate public relations bullshit campaign, it is a lie. Skin colour decides nothing except how badly you get burned staying out in the sun too long, obviously you pink skins have been out in the sun way too long. Cultures count, the cultures created by a society, what it values, how it works together, the community it creates. Skin colour, hair colour, eye shape mean nothing.

      You 'whities' can bugger off and leave us olive skinned people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... out of your squabbles with the brown people. Stop dragging us into your whitey nonsense when you rejected us last century, your pink skin, your sunburn, your problem. You brown people, the reason so many of you are BROWN rather than black or more accurately an even higher concentration of melanin in your skin, is because those fucking 'whities' were a rapey bunch and slaves, a lot of you reflect the behaviours of those rapey rednecks it must be genetic, the worst of the pink skins.

      If you don't mock it at every single opportunity it will not stop and just get worse.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    28. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      It's almost like there's something connecting those two statistics ...

      Yes, but not in the direction you think.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    29. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      What is it with all this American whitey stuff all of a sudden. Seriously you guys can bugger off. I am olive skinned, in my youth, you easy burning pink skins called me wog, dagoe and spic, now you call me fucking white, fuck you. I am olive skinned, I am a wog, you pink skins made your mess, now you can lie (tee hee) in it.

      Hey man, don't look at me. I'm Sicilian, I get bumps when I shave and I carry the gene for the Mediterranean version of sickle cell. I clap on the 2 and 4 beats and have a terrific sense of rhythm. You can watch me whip AND watch me nae nae. I'm looking forward to seeing Black Panther and can swag surf.

      I can't play a lick of basketball and have blue eyes, but by every other objective measure, I'm a person of color. Also, white girls love me.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    30. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Yes, but not in the direction you think.

      Ah, but of course. He dindu nuffin. He was a good boy. Da po po made him rob the store and shoot the clerk. If only they wasn't to ray-cist he might have been a rocket surgeon!

    31. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Ah, but of course. He dindu nuffin. He was a good boy. Da po po made him rob the store and shoot the clerk. If only they wasn't to ray-cist he might have been a rocket surgeon!

      Gosh, you're an idiot.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    32. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Gosh, you're an idiot.

      That's adorable coming from the dipshit who thinks that cops are quite happy to be shot by white criminals, and that police shootings somehow magically make blacks more likely to be killers.

    33. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hahahahaha - wow you're ignorant. And racist. You know who *really* gets a pass from the legal persecution apparatus? Rich private school twats like you.

      I know why you silverspoons scream soooo loudly about imaginary "white privilege". Its because you think it will draw attention away from the very real financial privilege you've enjoyed your entire life.

    34. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does Soros pay you $0.25 per post, or just $0.15?

    35. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey bro, just sayin', maybe you should lay off the meth.

    36. Re: So it will be no good by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      I suggest you walk your honkey ass down the street of your posh little town and find the nearest heavily armed paramilitary thug ("cop"). Then point a firearm at him. Please be sure to have someone film your encounter.

      Most likely the law enforcer and his gangmates will blow you away in a hail of lead. There's a smaller possibility he may beat the living shit out of you, then lock you in a cage at a torture camp for a few decades.

    37. Re: So it will be no good by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      In many parts of rural West Virginia people leave their house doors unlocked at night. Because there's no crime. Despite the crushing poverty.

    38. Re:So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So true, the right-wing racist approach is so much simpler and allows criminals to be identified from their skin tone alone. No fancy algorithms needed!

    39. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As if the nations of olive skinned people haven't been racist slave owners. Take the chip off of your shoulder.

      "If you don't mock it at every single opportunity it will not stop and just get worse."

      So, here's a "whitey" mocking your racism. Moron!

    40. Re:So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many years is Chris Brown getting for being a woman-beating shitbag?

      The only privilege in the world is money. If you have money, you can get away with any crime except tax evasion.

    41. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I haven't laughed this much all day.
      "They started with nothing, and made those themselves"
      If you truly believe this, I will leave it at that :-)

    42. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You didn't even read his comment, or you blindly responded. No cop in history has gone on record saying they're cool with men of any color pointing a gun at them.

    43. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The worst trailer park is still better than any black ghetto. Lot less random gunfire at night.

    44. Re:So it will be no good by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

      You're right. OP should have used the term 'violent criminals' for the sake of accuracy.

    45. Re: So it will be no good by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      You've got it backwards, Texas was Mexican first, then invaded by white folk.

      --
      horror vacui
    46. Re: So it will be no good by liefer · · Score: 1

      I'll only comment on your 2nd source as the others are worthless. Have you actually read the report? You should, it's very interesting. It uses the same statistical "analysis" that was used to come to the conclusion that women earn 30% less than men. Broad aggregates are not useful for much else than pushing an agenda. If you think i've misread the study, please let me know

    47. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Broad aggregates are not useful for much else than pushing an agenda.

      Broad aggregates of data are used in everything from economics to epidemiology.

      Why are "race realists" so anxious to discount data when it conflicts with their bigoted worldview? I see you've posted neo-nazi and white supremacist stuff here before, liefer, and also that as a European, you seem to have a lot to say about Republican politics. I don't have time or inclination to debate with you.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    48. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It can be cops on power trips or cops scared for their lives when answering a call in a bad neighborhood. Remember that cop will come and intervene with the lowest dregs when every fiber of his or her being says stay away. When all is said and done, if parents kept their kids in line and taught right from wrong, there wouldn't be as many of these shootings.

    49. Re: So it will be no good by liefer · · Score: 1

      Ah so you agree with univariate statistical analysis. Women do in fact earn 30% less than men. That really is terrible. Go add some more labels to me, see if that makes up for your intellectual inaptitude

  6. Another proof.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    of white male supremacist oppression. What else?

  7. Racist, or accurate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    So, when the white guy struggles to differentiate black people with an "you all look the same to me" statement, it's automatically construed as racist and derogatory.

    Has facial recognition validated that statement to hold more truth than previously assumed, or is this the fault of the programming behind it?

    1. Re: Racist, or accurate? by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Have you ever watched some war move where all the actors are relatively unknown and are sporting a buzz cut?

      Can't tell one white guy from another, especially if they have similar builds.

      And when they later use camo face paint...forget it. All you can rely on is their voices

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    2. Re:Racist, or accurate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's more that the facial recognition tech was trained on white people, so it's not as good as identifying black people. Same thing with people. Non-white people tend to think that white people all look the same. :D

    3. Re:Racist, or accurate? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      So, when the white guy struggles to differentiate black people with an "you all look the same to me" statement, it's automatically construed as racist and derogatory.

      It is? News to me, mostly because you're inventing outrage.

      Even the Grauniad doesn't say it's racist.

      https://www.theguardian.com/sc...

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Racist, or accurate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hispanic here, can confirm: whites, asians and blacks look the same to me. Whites at least have many hair colors.

    5. Re: Racist, or accurate? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Face recognition doesn't care about hair style. It doesn't with like a human, it measures face geometry like the distance between the eyes.

      Camouflage make up works only if you design it to make it hard for the face recognition to see features like the eyes and mouth. Basic war paint has mixed results, especially with cameras that are IR sensitive for night vision.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    6. Re:Racist, or accurate? by Megol · · Score: 3, Informative

      Racist? Not really - just that one learns to identify people by looking at people. So Africans generally think Asians and "whites"* look all the same, Asians generally think "whites" and Africans look the same etc.
      Nothing strange or racist about that.

      Then add the fact that many people have problem identifying others from facial features alone we get a cultural aspect of this "look alike" thing.

    7. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      I have seen several black men make "we all look alike" jokes this year. I guarantee you it's a thing.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    8. Re: Racist, or accurate? by NeoMorphy · · Score: 2

      Actually that is literally the definition of racism.

      I just looked it up and it's literally not the definition of racism.

    9. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what he's saying is: "racism is 100% natural, and found amongst any significantly feature-distinguishable population" ?

      Or it just came out that way?

    10. Re: Racist, or accurate? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Face recognition doesn't care about hair style. It doesn't with like a human, it measures face geometry like the distance between the eyes.

      Yes, and no. While eye distance is a factor, it's not the only factor.
      Some of the facial geometry can and sometimes is obscured by hair style, whether it's hair obscuring the slope of the forehead, a lock obscuring the brow ridge, a moustache obscuring the mouth, or a full beard obscuring the entire jaw. For some, the eyes and nose is almost all data you have, while for others there are far more data points.

    11. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      racÂism
      ËrÄËOEsizÉ(TM)m
      noun
      prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
      "a program to combat racism"
      synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, casteism
      "Aborigines are the main victims of racism in Australia"
      the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

      Weird, I don't see anything in there about thinking that people of other races look the same. Are you sure you got your definitions straight?

    12. Re: Racist, or accurate? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I have seen several black men make "we all look alike" jokes this year. I guarantee you it's a thing.

      er...?

      Basically if you spend your time mostly hanging round with people from one race, people from other races will be kind of similar looking.

      On the other hand, it's crass to say "all X look alike" in seriousness because it's not true. All X might look alike to a particular person, but not to many many other people. Do people still say such things in seriousness? I've not heard something like that personally from since the 90s (they say the past is a foreign country... it really is). So if people are still saying it, then yes, people will crack jokes about it.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    13. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Why can't people just ask an actual expert. Not all algrothims are so poor at distinguishing such features.
      When I was programing such algrothims there was a back guy sitting in the back of the class I was working with. None of us working with the data saw him as he blended in perfectly with the shadow he was sitting in. But the algrothims found him correctly identified him, in all of our tests.
      Funny thing is it was actually easier for it to find him than many of the whites in the room. Just to be clear the class was over 95% white.
      Just because one algrothims has issues does not mean all will.

      On another note, wtf is with everyone trying to see racism everywhere. I will not be shamed in to giving advantages to other who have not earned it.

    14. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Yes, I am quite certain. Off you go now ...

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    15. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You looked it up in the wrong place. Psychology is at play, and all humans are tribal/racist by nature. Don't look in a dictionary to understand how the mind works.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    16. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Must be working with one of them "progressive" dictionaries then. As soon as you succeed in reeducating the rest of humanity, we will all have no choice but to agree with you.

    17. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the definition of the word "definition" in this case. It isn't about dictionaries, but rather memetic structure.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    18. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      So the definition isn't the definition? Nice. You sound like one of those "sovereign citizen" idiots who insist that the law isn't the law unless it agrees with their personal definitions.

  8. Bias by lucm · · Score: 0

    Of course no one will assemble a "diverse" set of images to train computers; white males are the only group that can be profiled and discriminated against without generating a flurry of enraged hashtags. So there we go. Use white males photos because nobody will be offended, and then blame white males because the AI trained on their images recognize them better; win-win.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:Bias by lucasnate1 · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's official, I can no longer differentiate between alt-righters and SJWs, both just say "we're the victim and everybody else are raping/genociding/whatever us"

    2. Re: Bias by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      I'm glad it's not just me.

    3. Re:Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And grabbing them by the pussy. don't forget that one.

    4. Re:Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's official, I can no longer differentiate between alt-righters and SJWs, both just say "we're the victim and everybody else are raping/genociding/whatever us"

      You're just now learning that the bully always claims to be persecuted, to be suffering, to be the martyr?

      It's practically the first thing abusers learn to do, flip reality inside out, and make it so you're the one at fault. They're often quite frenetic about it, especially when you don't buy their bullshit.

    5. Re:Bias by Megol · · Score: 1

      Really? I think the terms are best described as "someone I don't agree with" and "someone I don't agree with that have some conservative views" - at least as used by idiots on the Internet.

    6. Re:Bias by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Horseshoe theory. They're two sides of the same racist coin.

      The only thing they diverge on is who is the ubermensch and who is the untermensch.

    7. Re:Bias by lucasnate1 · · Score: 1

      Wait, who is who?

    8. Re:Bias by aevan · · Score: 1

      Horseshoe-theory

    9. Re:Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you're saying is that White people are more diverse?

    10. Re: Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hillaryists sure do hate that Donald Trump is openly straight.

  9. Maybe they really do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    all just look the same.

  10. I knew it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is obviously a ploy by the intersectionalists to further their grip on power by suppressing the white guy in a "socially acceptable" way! *dons tin foil hat* Oh I'd better not have done that, 'cuz MIT research says that *attracts* government mind control rays. Oh shit.

    Anyway, no of course there is likely no conspiracy (though THEY sure want you to believe that!) but this is simply an artefact of too many white guys in the field (hoist on their own petard, eh). But someone's gotta say it, regardless.

    Uh, what's with the swarming helos here all of a sudden? They're all bla... eh, AFRICAN AMERICAN helos too. Funny, that.

  11. The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    White people's faces reflecting more light is problematic.

    1. Re:The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Classifiers that don't discriminate are useless. 8)

    2. Re:The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I know, white women's faces reflect just as much light as white men's faces, yet the fine article reports that facial recognition software works better on white men's faces than on white women's, and it works better on black men's faces than on black women's.

    3. Re:The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's ok Trump will save us by making sure only people with highly reflective skin are allowed in the US. He will argue that only people with highly reflective skin can whine and cry all day but still be considered great Americans if they vote Republican. Go Trump.

    4. Re:The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I know, white women's faces reflect just as much light as white men's faces, yet the fine article reports that facial recognition software works better on white men's faces than on white women's

      Makeup, ..., do you know how hard is to obtain unedited (no makeup) women's photos?
      Paint striper is not an option.

    5. Re:The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black faces are just as capable of reflecting light as white faces. We try to create a welcoming environment for faces of all colors and encourage a face of any color to apply for a reflective position within our company.

      Your attitude is not helpful. You are fired.

      (Poe's law disclosure: yes, that was meant to be a sarcastic dig on Google)

  12. I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean it will only identify me half the time?

    1. Re:I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does this mean it will only identify me half the time?

      It means that half of the time, you experience an overwhelming urge to consume beans.

    2. Re: I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      It means there's a 50 percent chance you'll kill the AI in a drive-by before it has a chance to ID you.

      And wtf is "half white, half hispanic"?? You mean you're 100% white and you speak Spanish?

    3. Re:I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Does this mean it will only identify me half the time?

      In the US nobody is half white. You're either white, or whatever else.
      You'd have to be like 99% white before they stop calling you whatever else you are.

    4. Re:I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Barak Obama is white?

  13. See: China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Only online white boys are at all worried about "a flurry of enraged hashtags". If you can tear yourself away from pornhub for a moment look into facial recognition in China where they are not training their AI to catch MRA sex tourists.

    This will all even out over time. There are a finite number of facial types by race.

    1. Re:See: China by lucm · · Score: 1

      This will all even out over time. There are a finite number of facial types by race.

      If that's the case, then facial recognition will soon be useless.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
    2. Re:See: China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only online white boys are at all worried about "a flurry of enraged hashtags". If you can tear yourself away from pornhub for a moment look into facial recognition in China where they are not training their AI to catch MRA sex tourists.

      It'll catch up all right. Once they feed all the mug shots into the AI, we'll have about two thirds of all black males. Sooner of later the AI will be able to differentiate them from the Harambe photos.

    3. Re:See: China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reading comprehension is faulty.

    4. Re:See: China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your reading comprehension is faulty.

      If that were lucm's actual problem it'd be a thousand times better than the reality.

    5. Re:See: China by lucm · · Score: 1

      Your reading comprehension is faulty.

      If that were lucm's actual problem it'd be a thousand times better than the reality.

      Anyone who ever told you that you're clever, funny or witty was lying or stupid.

      --
      lucm, indeed.
  14. Stupid racist algorithms by mpercy · · Score: 2

    Always knew that machines were bigots.

    1. Re:Stupid racist algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Minorites are not receiving equal recognition for their faces. We need Affirmative Accuracy. If we can't increase the accuracy for minorites then we should forcibly reduce accuracy for white people to match the inequality. Their should be equality in recognition.

    2. Re:Stupid racist algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, most black children have trouble identifying their father. It's not just a software issue.

    3. Re:Stupid racist algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be fair, most black children have trouble identifying their father. It's not just a software issue.

      Probably because most black children never get to meet, never mind see, their fathers.

      Call me racist, Doesn't make my statement less true. 75% of black babies are born to single mothers.

    4. Re:Stupid racist algorithms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      percentage is off slightly, but he's right.

      http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/

  15. Privilege by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We has it.

  16. Yes, this is objective proof from Computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers, which as we all know, are not subject to human error, decide to pay more attention to white males, because computers, unlike human beings, have no problem recognizing the importance of the white male, and thus we, human beings, rather than raising questions and doubting the all-mighty all-knowing machine, should just knuckle under and respect the white man like computers do.

  17. Need to get a deep tan by ET3D · · Score: 1

    So the government will be less likely to know where I am.

  18. Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This reminds me of that ridiculous article (and accompanying video) saying that color film was biased towards white people. Around 3:30 in the video they have white and black people stand in front of a face-following camera and it doesn't work for the black people. Everyone acts like this is some sort of Harry Potter wizardry against the black man keeping him down when it's vastly simpler than that.

    For progressively darker skin, progressively higher light on that skin is required to reveal its contours. The fundamental problem is that white and light-skinned brown people have their normal skin color shades in the midtones when a scene is properly exposed while darker-skinned brown and black people are closer to shadows. To expose properly for facial recognition of dark brown or black skin, you have to overexpose the midtones to bring up the shadows. Since people rarely take photos on purpose that are exposed for the shadows while blowing everything else out, it should be fairly obvious that facial recognition (and early ISO 32 color film and small-sensor cameras like webcams and phone cameras) will have a very hard time with dark skin. Sure, it could be a lack of data in some instances, but it's far more likely to be the fact that the skin absorbs more light and photographs are generally exposed too low to reveal enough detail for the machines to analyze.

    If you think this is "racist" you're saying that the nature of light itself is racist. I don't feel like I should have to explain why that position is really stupid.

    1. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The solution is HDR photography (high dynamic range) imaging.

    2. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I'm going to assume that this is supposed to be a joke but the Poe's Law is strong with this one.

    3. Re:Here we go again by MrMr · · Score: 2

      Automatic exposure is normally calibrated for 18% gray (average outdoor scene). That means if you make a portrait of a skin tone darker or lighter than that you need to think what you measure and compensate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    4. Re:Here we go again by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Informative

      The point you missed is that set lighting for white people has to be carefully designed and set up. One of the reasons colour film took so long to become practical was the difficulty of getting skin tones right.

      If you look at early colour film the skin tones of white people are pretty good, but other colours are way off. Over saturated in places, washed out in others. It was a design decision.

      Vox is correctly pointing out that film from the era was not designed for dark skin, and that made it hard for non-white actors. Similar to how when sound came in a lot of actors lost work because they had thick accents.

      Note that the Vox article does not contain the word "racist" or even "race". It's pertinent because we are now seeing more black actors on screen and Hollywood finally figured out how to light them properly.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I'm looking at early color film and the dark-skinned people shown look pretty darn good. The more I look for images of dark skin on early color film the more I find evidence that goes against the assertion that early film was specifically made for "white" skin. Kodachrome seems to make everyone look pretty good.

    6. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think this is "racist" you're saying that the nature of light itself is racist. I don't feel like I should have to explain why that position is really stupid.

      The problem is not the nature of color and light. The problem is the sample data used to train this âoeartificial intelligenceâ. If the trainer doesnâ(TM)t think to include non-white people, the technology will suck at differentiating non-white people.

      That you yourself ague that it is inherently more difficult to distinguish non-white people compounds both the error and bias. Not against non-white people per-she, but simply in reflection of the view that white peoples matter most. According to you, this is a known problem. If so it is all the more damning that it has not been addressed.

      For now, this bias hobbles the technology. However, it also makes white peoples more vulnerable to abuses of facial recognition such as mass surveillance. I guess it also means theyâ(TM)ll have better luck unlocking their iPhone with their face, so theyâ(TM)ve got that going for them. Lol.

    7. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some taps are known to be racist as well as a good portion of soap dispensers.

      https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/racist-soap-dispenser-refuses-help-11004385

      Clearly more effort is needed to be focused on educating these groups of appliances so that they have the chance to throw off their prejudices.

    8. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You misunderstand. He is pointing out that it's natural for darker skin tones to absorb more light, which is true. Actually, it's not just dark skin tones but all dark objects seem to have this effect. Over time, technology has improved the contrast range. It would foolish to think that scientists did not want to improve upon the ability to photograph dark objects.

      If you want to lay the blame on racism, you should start with the "Laws of Light". More specifically, you should find out who created the "Laws of Light". It wasn't "White Scientists", they only discovered them. God, created the "Laws of Light", which means that God must be racist. He also created the "White Scientists" and had them discover his "Laws of Light" so that they could create racists cameras!

    9. Re:Here we go again by zmooc · · Score: 1

      I suggest not to explain this in terms of exposure etc. because that will simply trigger a discussion on (early) photography technology development being racist.

      It's much simpler than that: the darker something is, the less light it reflects, the less information is present in it's appearance, the harder it is to recognize. This will always be the case and developments in photography technology will never solve it, they will alleviate the problem at best. If it is a problem, that is, because I think facial recognition will turn out to be a much bigger problem than badly exposed photographs.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    10. Re:Here we go again by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      There are lots of different kinds of film, even from the same manufacturer. Different kinds of film are better at capturing different colors. There's long been film which was better for photographing whites, and film which was better for photographing people with dark skin.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have it backwards. They don't absorb more light because they are dark, they are dark because they absorb more light.

    12. Re:Here we go again by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      I agree that a significant part of this is a physics problem. It would be possible to test whether or not this is algorithmic by training a recognizer on a high percentage of dark skinned people and seeing what its performance was like on light skinned people.

      A lot of modern cameras / cell phones have live face detection features. A photo setting that set exposure for faces would help this. People might not use it much though - if you have a dark skinned person in a scene, many people may still prefer the face to be under-exposed rather than the rest of the scene partially saturated.

      It would be possible to test whether or not this is algorithmic by training a recognizer on a high percentage of dark skinned people and seeing what its performance was like on light skinned people.

    13. Re:Here we go again by arth1 · · Score: 1

      The problem is not the nature of color and light. The problem is the sample data used to train this Ãoeartificial intelligenceÃ. If the trainer doesnÃ(TM)t think to include non-white people, the technology will suck at differentiating non-white people.

      That you yourself ague that it is inherently more difficult to distinguish non-white people compounds both the error and bias. Not against non-white people per-she, but simply in reflection of the view that white peoples matter most.

      Sigh. You start off so well in the first paragraph, and then you jump to unfounded conclusions. Feeding the facial recognition routines data that reflect the overall demographics is the unbiased approach. Feeding it 50% pictures of dark skinned people in a region with 20% dark skinned people would be biased, and precisely what you argue against.
      Yes, it will likely have problems with albinos, people with argyria or rickets, those who use the same dermatologist as Trump, full beard aficionados, and many others, due to less data. That's not a bias, but a lack of bias. The unbiased solution is not to increase the proportion of data for these groups, but to increase the overall amount of data so more data arrives also for these groups.

    14. Re:Here we go again by quantaman · · Score: 0

      For progressively darker skin, progressively higher light on that skin is required to reveal its contours. The fundamental problem is that white and light-skinned brown people have their normal skin color shades in the midtones when a scene is properly exposed while darker-skinned brown and black people are closer to shadows. To expose properly for facial recognition of dark brown or black skin, you have to overexpose the midtones to bring up the shadows. Since people rarely take photos on purpose that are exposed for the shadows while blowing everything else out, it should be fairly obvious that facial recognition (and early ISO 32 color film and small-sensor cameras like webcams and phone cameras) will have a very hard time with dark skin. Sure, it could be a lack of data in some instances, but it's far more likely to be the fact that the skin absorbs more light and photographs are generally exposed too low to reveal enough detail for the machines to analyze.

        If you think this is "racist" you're saying that the nature of light itself is racist. I don't feel like I should have to explain why that position is really stupid.

      No one is saying it's "racist" in the form of deliberate racial bias, they're saying it doesn't work for dark skinned people because of how the technology was developed.

      Now you're claiming that it's a fundamental property of physics, that it's fundamentally difficult to highlight black people's features without overexposing the rest of the picture. That might be true, but I don't think the question is as easy to answer as you imply.

      Imagine photography and film were developed primarily by black people and white people were an underclass that no one really cared about. At every stage of the technological development those black people would be asking the same question, "how do we get our features to show up really clearly?"

      If it's just a fundamental property of the physics as you suggest then maybe they would have done a lot more nighttime films so they could shoot in low light, and the engineers would then talk about how surprisingly easy it was to get clear images of white faces.

      However, the development of film and photography involves well over a century of decision points. I suspect if they spent much of that time optimizing how to show dark-skinned faces they might have come up with some very different technology and this would not be the problem we're dealing with.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    15. Re:Here we go again by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      Better Off Ted: "Racial Sensitivity"

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt13...

    16. Re:Here we go again by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but that's not the problem.

      In the summary the problem was stated to be the frequency of images in the training set data.

      The technical details you specify may be correct, but they are irrelevant to this particular problem. And they wouldn't explain the problem with recognizing women in any case.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    17. Re:Here we go again by jareth-0205 · · Score: 0

      Yes. Here we go again. And we're going to keep going here again until we start fixing the problems. Whether it's setup, exposure metering, or chemistry, there is an issue here that isn't being seen or fixed because we're all desperately leaping to blame physics or some other neutral thing that we can't control and therefore don't need to worry about.

      We all look at the world from our own experiences and perspectives, and that's why getting a variety of people in increasingly important and influential fields like computing is important. We need those perspectives because we literally don't see outside our own.

    18. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are saying that light is racist. You might be using five short paragraphs to do it but that's exactly what you are doing. Take your social justice agenda elsewhere.

    19. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice try, but you don't get to dismiss reality to apply your social justice agenda. The physics will not change just because you don't like them. I love how you pulled a straw man out of your butt too. Turbo classy plus plus! Tip your fedora and go.

    20. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That video shows Fuji Film, which has been around since the 30s, and made in Japan, a land with few white people, yet they call the video "Color film was built for white people."

      Are they suggesting Japanese also designed film for white people? Or that both Kodak and Fuji ignored huge markets and no competitor arose to meet that market?

      Why use racially charged terms instead of benign physical properties, like "lighter skinned"?

      Oh yeah, for the clicks.

    21. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see that it's a physics problem so much as an image sensor design problem. At the moment, image sensors are pretty much universally designed to give a flat response curve proportional to light-energy that hits each sensor, and dividing the number of sampling points evenly across the range of possible illumination.

      We don't do this with audio. Instead, we allow for more of the available sample points to be at the lower volume end, as the human ear can detect the relative volume of quiet sounds better than loud ones, giving better perception of audio for the same sample size.

      At low light levels, the human eye can detect contrast well, but not so much colour accuracy. The RGB colourspace replicates this to some degree, but tends to leave dark areas of an image without enough contrast. Perhaps we should abandon it in favour of models that more closely match our vision.

    22. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Japanese people (and many East Asian people in general) are relatively light-skinned compared to other Asian races such as Indians.

      They (Vox) also spend a lot of time picking on Kodachrome film from Kodak which has a notoriously narrow dynamic range (about 6 stops compared to modern color film's 13 stops) and which was only available up to ISO 16 until 1961. At ISO 16 you have to expose around 6-7 times longer for proper exposure compared to the "sunny outdoors film" of the 1990s which was ISO 100. Kodachrome never made it past ISO 64 until 1986. Gee, I wonder why Kodachrome had difficulty making black people look good...I'm sure the answer is around here somewhere...oh yeah, because they're dark and the film's dynamic range was so bad that if you exposed the dark skin properly you'd blow out all the highlights and over-expose the midtones.

      Dark people being dark and throwing off imaging systems is not a problem that can be easily solved. What pisses me off is when people blame it on racist algorithms when the truth boils down to the "racism" of physics. Dark skin is dark. Dark things are harder for a camera to "see." Apparently this is shocking news to some people. What will solve the problem is improving our camera sensor technology to the point that even cheap cell phones and tiny-sensor webcams can differentiate enough features on a black person's face in typical indoor light (with heavy backlighting that usually drives the automatic exposure way too low) to recognize their faces. Adding more underexposed black faces to the machine's data set is not going to help much.

    23. Re:Here we go again by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      The fact that we call a portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum "light" is obviously racist.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    24. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      There was a children's book (I forget which, I think it was a Cat in the Hat one) where they turned on "darks" which did the same thing as lights except in reverse.

    25. Re:Here we go again by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Ha! I remember a Dave Barry column where he referred to lightbulbs as "darksuckers".

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    26. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      set lighting for white people has to be carefully designed and set up. One of the reasons colour film took so long to become practical was the difficulty of getting [white] skin tones right.

      I assume you've got a reputable source for this assertion, right? I mean, surely you didn't just pull it out of your ass (or the ass of a gender-studies course*).

      Pertaining to older movies, which ones are designed to be slanted in their color representations? I watched Spartacus, for example, which came out in 1960, and while the cast is certainly overwhelmingly white, there's a notable scene with Kirk Douglas and Woody Strode which hardly appears to be slanted against Woody in the color balance/saturation department. Is 1960 just too mature for the film-making era you're talking about? While color films certainly existed prior to 1960, keep in mind that color broadcasts weren't officially a thing in the US until 1953, and that color TV sets only really started to sell in the mid-1960's (only overtaking black-and-white sets in sales in the 1970's).

      In other words, Spartacus debuted when color motion pictures were still very much a novelty in daily life, and thus subjected to little scrutiny when technical details such as color balance or saturation weren't quite right. It also came out when racial sentiments were still decidedly anti anything not white, so I find it difficult to believe that the filmmakers would have ignored technical decisions informed by pro-white aesthetics, knowing that they could a) get away with it due to the novelty of the process and b) likely benefit with sales/reviews if they could make Kirk appear all that more appealing, even at the expense of Woody.

      * Yes, gender studies courses do pull things out the ass. I would know; I took one last year. The "professor" actually said that engine turn cranks were designed to be difficult to turn so that only men would be able to operate early vehicles... it wasn't a technical limitation or anything; no no, it was a conscious decision on the part of the patriarchy to restrict the movement of women.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    27. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      Well I guess you better get off your ass and implement a better algorithm, then. After all, light reflectivity isn't a problem for you.

      Also, what is the problem, in the summary, with recognizing women vs. men? This statement?

      more errors arise -- up to nearly 35 percent for images of darker skinned women

      Oh, wait... it's darker skinned women, not just women in general, that the summary references. Perhaps the technical detail referenced by the parent isn't irrelevant after all?

      No, I'm sure you're right, and will roll out that politically correct recognition algorithm of yours in no time at all.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    28. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have heard an interesting anecdote about how the film "Men In Black" was very difficult to light. One one hand you want to see more of Will Smith's dark face, but on the other you want to see less of Tommy Lee Jones' wrinkles and craters. When they're in a shot together that is very difficult to light.

    29. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kodachrome was a relatively expensive film stock and a relatively expensive process. The results were great but it definitely wasn't the norm.

    30. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why are you snowflakes so triggered by discussions of race, feeling guilty? And why bring up gender studies? Gotta get a dig on women in too? Completely unrelated to this.

    31. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I bring up Kodachrome because the Vox video in particular uses Kodachrome examples to "prove" that film was biased against black people. I know other film stock existed but the point was that Vox was full of it. I have since made a response video to their "racist film" video in which I point out that the 1952 ISO 10/16 Kodachrome shot full of very dark-skinned people is exposed properly and the faces are visible with enough light.

    32. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "To be fair, Japanese people (and many East Asian people in general) are relatively light-skinned compared to other Asian races such as Indians. "

      Ok, to be REALLY fair, aren't there also a huge boatload of white Asians? As in - all the white-skinned people in Russia? A lot of folks forget that Russia is in Asia.

    33. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      Nice. Make a bullshit assertion. Someone rebuts your bullshit with factual counterpoints. Cry "Triggerreed! Guilltay! Snawflarke!"

      By the way, where did you see a dig at women? The use of a gender studies (not even women's studies) example, illustrating how your ilk are eager to assign bigoted motivations -- without any evidence -- to genuine technical challenges, simply because such challenges may not impact everyone identically? Hmm, that seems very related to the topic being discussed... almost as if it's a recurring theme with you idiots.

      By the way, it's illustrative how you think I made a dig at women because I said that the assertion that early engine cranks were designed to be too tough for women to turn, is a bullshit claim. Why do you even accept that women had difficulty turning the crank, and men didn't, as the assertion requires? Isn't that an implicit dig on women on your part? After all, you're essentially saying that women lack whatever attribute is required to turn an engine crank while men don't. Seems kinda sexist to me... you sexist, you.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    34. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The accuracy of analysis is based on the total number of images viewed, regardless of the proportion of the population. For example, we have no wild kangaroos in the US. If you want to accurately identify them, you would need a great number of samples for training. A zero percent accuracy rate because of a zero percent population does not make this "equally as valid" for kangaroos!

      So the bias is not based on training for a specific group. Anything you want to identify reliably must have a substantial number of images. If it is not biased to say that 65% recognition rate for darker skinned women is acceptable, I'm not sure what is. Mainly, saying that this technology is acceptable as a mainstream form of identification with poor rates for minorities absolutely disadvantages them.

    35. Re:Here we go again by digibruce · · Score: 1

      I haven't RTFx'd at all here, but old-school photogs all know Kodachrome is great for shadow detail, which would back up your assertion that it did a good job with rendering detail in dark-skinned faces. Not just Kodachrome, but slide film in general is better at shadow detail, while print film is better at highlight detail. I always thought this had to do with physics, not a design choice. What I can say for sure is that photographers used to shoot *chrome (slide film) underexposed a half stop, to avoid featureless, blown-out highlights and to take advantage of the shadow detail.

    36. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Given the way that facial recognition software is often used, I'd say that not working on so-called "minorities" is a big advantage and a privacy boon for them.

    37. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's long been film which was better for photographing whites, and film which was better for photographing people with dark skin.

      Citation please.

      I've never heard of film for photographing whites. I have heard of film for different color temperatures, fluorescent, daylight film, nature/landscape film, portrait film, chrome/slide (in combination with the previous) etc.

    38. Re:Here we go again by jayesel · · Score: 1

      Most sane people have already commented on your post. It's clear, you miss that whatever is being measured is based upon some standard. What that standard is will determine what is the normal circumstance of the thing being measured. If it's dark skin, lights would be calibrated for that, to reveal contours as you say. Since it's light skin, the current lighting is calibrated to reveal the contours of that skin type.

    39. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, sure, it's just a matter of calibration. Let me know when you figure out how to "calibrate" the light for a capture medium with terrible dynamic range to clearly reveal contours of dark skin without blowing out highlights and a large amount of midtones, because that's definitely how physics works and white people could so easily fix the problem if they only tried harder and weren't so racist. Do I really need to denote the sarcasm in this post for you?

  19. White? Male? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I prefer to think of myself as melanin and chromosomally challenged. Whose fault is it that I got a broken X? I blame Trump.

  20. So only black women can have privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like everyone else will be tracked and profiled as they move around in the real world. Only darker skinned black women will have a shred of privacy.

  21. What if I told you by aliquis · · Score: 1

    the camera sensor work with light and since a paler skin reflect more light than a darker one the signal to noise ratio increase and more features will be visible and hence the program can do more of it's magic.

    Assuming you don't measure the whole scene and use the same exposure you could expose the image for longer (and get something more blurry due to movement) or raise the gain (and gain more noise) but the simple technological fact is that the darker skin will never be as easy to capture as the brighter one. Eventually both may still be good enough but that's the fact.

    As for whatever the algorithms somehow are worse for darker people I don't know. But to conclude that from a poorer result on them isn't evidence by itself, especially since there's a totally believable reason and prediction for why this would be the case.

    Similarly for women due to makeup their and hair work their appearance may change more plus also be harder to process both naturally and because they blend their skin to a smoother tone using make-up. Camouflage and disguise if you so want.

    Put a brown bag on your face and see how discriminating the algorithm become .. Then it won't have a clue!!

    1. Re: What if I told you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cats also re cameras: we have two. The tabby takes great pictures but then his coat is high contrast and full of vertical lines. The longhair is basically a grey fluffball. We can illuminate the crap out of him but the picture is a blur unless we can trick the focus on an edge near him or if he happens to look at the camera directly. Gotta have contrast for contrast-based focussing. And I would imagine the fiddly bits of the neural net ai needs it as well.

    2. Re:What if I told you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Put a brown bag on your face and see how discriminating the algorithm become .. Then it won't have a clue!!

      Now you're just being racist against brown people!

    3. Re: What if I told you by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      The tabby takes great pictures

      What sort of camera have you trained that cat to use when he's taking those pictures?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  22. You know what this means? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Light is racist and sexist. Light needs to be fired from its job, and kicked out of college.

  23. Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For recognizing people in a crowd, 99% is nearly worthless. That means if you are looking for one terrorist in a train station that services 300,000 a day your false positives are going to outnumber your actual hit 3000:1.

    1. Re:Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also known as the base rate fallacy. If you're looking for a needle in a haystack, an algorithm which correctly distinguishes them 99% of the time is useless.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 0

      That is absurd. 99% of the time it will find the needle on the first try, and 1% of the time it will take longer as the stack is searched again.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    3. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by hey! · · Score: 2

      No, it will find "needles" all over the place, laced through the haystack. Just one of those tens of thousands of "needles" will actually be a needle.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    4. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It all depends on what you mean by 99% accurate. If you assume that is both the false positive and the false negative rate (that is, it will correctly identify the right person 99/100 times, and incorrectly identify the wrong person 1/100 times) then you have the base rate fallacy. If I am trying to catch 30 terrorists in a city of 1 million I am going to get ~100,000 false positives. My false positives will outnumber my valid hits over 3000:1.

    5. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by kenh · · Score: 1

      If I am trying to catch 30 terrorists in a city of 1 million I am going to get ~100,000 false positives. My false positives will outnumber my valid hits over 3000:1.

      No, you won't, unless you insist on submitting pictures of infants and senior citizens in your search for a dark-skinned middle eastern terrorist (you know, like in the movies).

      In a city of 1 million, half of them are the wrong gender, and given an equal spread of the population aged between 0 and 75 years, when looking for a 35 year-old male, you can likely exclude 75 of all men as too old or too young. So now we're down to 1/8th of the city, only 125K possible matches BEFORE we factor in ethnicity - when looking for an Asian man, why include blacks?

      Before I ever compare a picture that can be described as an Asian male roughly 35 years old, I've excluded up to 90% of the city before I ever start comparing faces. Having 1,000 faces to compare with a single face is a very workable number IMHO, given sufficiently important motivation (find the terrorist, stop an assassination of a world leader, you know - Jack Bauer-stuff).

      Remember, this is facial recognition - you have a facial image to start with - eliminating opposite gender, other ethnicities, and folks half or twice the age of the fellow in the photo in not racist, xenophobic, or whatever - it's a practical first step.

      --
      Ken
    6. Re:Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by kenh · · Score: 1

      That means if you are looking for one terrorist in a train station that services 300,000 a day your false positives are going to outnumber your actual hit 3000:1.

      What about false negatives, a failure to match correctly?

      You know that 99% probability resets with each new face - you aren't guaranteed a positive for every 100 comparisons, right?

      --
      Ken
    7. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You are assuming the failure is a false positive, in which case you are right. I was assuming a false negative, in which case I am right.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  24. Give me a bresk, race baitey baterson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Addressing the actual issue, the move to universal facial recognition is just Silicon Valley engineerlets latest in a long line of stupid decisions stretching over years at this point (case in point: no, Tim Cook, slapping AR on cute emojis is not going to 'normalize' it for people prior to your sticking it everywhere anymore thsn snapchat, nor make your other apps or gimmickey tech any more useful down the line. Most of us are not that stupid or easily manipulated, and gimmicks get old). Get off the drugs and the ego, kids.

    That said: Seriously? It isn't 'fool proof' for *anyone*. It was a stupid decision to integrate it into EVERYTHING. All you are accomplishing with your post is to confirm your status as a snowflake. There are legitimate reasons this has been a dumb move, a racist agenda is not one of them. Way to cloud an issue with your own personal butt hurt. Sorry, it may break your tender little heart, but this isn't about race, and it certainly isn't about *you*. Get over yourself.

    As an addendum, this is not me or anyone else being a 'luddite' or 'arrogant'. You are legitimately a moronic person if this post represents your highest level of thought or scrutiny. Like it ir not, 99% of the time we really do know better than you do, so it has always been for grown adults and post-pubescents, and so ever shall it be.

  25. Use infrared by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 2

    Then there is no discrimination. Kinect infrared for example does a great job leveling the playground.

    1. Re:Use infrared by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Are you sure? My guess is that melanin radiates in the infrared when exposed to light, so I would guess you've just altered the problem.

      Better to improve the dynamic sensitivity of the CCDs.

      OTOH, the real problem, as mentioned in the summary, was the set of training data. It learned to handle the most commonly appearing faces in the training data well, and didn't do as well on those things that were rare in the training data set, which happened to be both non-Caucasian faces and female faces.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Use infrared by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Yes, I use Kinect in nightclubs (custom software) and it sees the faces of all races and all major genders, to quote Dave Barry, equally well.

      Agree re the training set, I think if they retrained it on IR faces it would be much more robust since it would not depend on lighting.

    3. Re:Use infrared by scatbomb · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? My guess is that melanin radiates in the infrared when exposed to light, so I would guess you've just altered the problem.

      Why guess when you can look it up? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Short answer: Guess again! Melanin absorbs UV not IR.

  26. I had this problem as a child as well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Until I was a little older I was utterly unable to distinguish between black people.

    I'm not saying that as some kind of racist joke it is the truth, my adolescent mind just couldn't do it. Later on as I got older it became extremely easy to tell black people apart. Growing up though...well I feel for the AI, most movies with black actors in it really confused the hell out of me as a child since I couldn't tell them apart.

    I had a similar problem with asians but it was too a much lesser degree and like with differentiating black people it wore off as I got older.

  27. Re: Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas To by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was Google Photos IIRC.

  28. Iris by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That's why I went with the Iris option on my phone....

  29. The SD story misses the point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're a white guy, you have a lot of worry about, "they" can track you. If you're not, you're lucky, you can still blend into the creeps.

  30. No Joy by SSonnentag · · Score: 1

    Another racist (Joy) concluding that the cause of something not considered ideal must be due to racist white men. Pure rubbish.

  31. Re: Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas T by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers know better, they do not come when the societal biases out of the box. You have to manually damage them algorithms to give wrong results.

  32. Oh boy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Muh white privilege.

  33. also in human cognition by epine · · Score: 2

    Someone needs to test whether humans, also, decline in speed or accuracy of facial recognition when dealing with darker shades of skin colour.

    I know for certain that I have more trouble reading facial emotion from black people than white people. The naive response is that I live in a city that's 95% white. But I've been able to convince myself that this is the correct explanation. I simply feel like I have less visual data than I would otherwise at the same point in the cognitive process.

    Suppose I lived in a troop deployment in Afghanistan, and 90% of the people around me wore camo all the time. Would I actually become better at recognizing camo than civilian gear? But this is, indeed, the converse implication of the naive hypothesis.

    There are populations in Brazil that experience the entire range of skin tones on a daily basis. These populations could be tested for recognition rate/accuracy for lighter and darker test cases.

    I highly suspect that darker skin tone has a detectable coefficient of identity camouflage, also in human cognition.

    1. Re:also in human cognition by swillden · · Score: 2

      I know for certain that I have more trouble reading facial emotion from black people than white people. The naive response is that I live in a city that's 95% white.

      The more likely reason is that you grew up in an environment that was 95% white.

      It's well-established (many studies) that people are better at recognizing faces similar to those they grew up looking at. Just like with machine learning, human brains trained on white faces are better at distinguishing white faces, and human brains trained on black faces are better at distinguishing black faces.

      I highly suspect that darker skin tone has a detectable coefficient of identity camouflage, also in human cognition.

      That would not explain why Africans who grow up without seeing white faces think all white people look alike, but can easily distinguish black faces.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:also in human cognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Recognising emotion is different to recognising identity. It's heavily dependent on culture. It took me a while to learn to recognise Chinese and Japanese emotions from people's faces, because they are different to British ones. I guess different shape faces probably had an influence too.

      But I don't think skin colour alone was much of a factor, which is what screws up these facial recognition systems.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:also in human cognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Black people have no trouble recognizing black people. White's typically say they all look the same. That isn't false. It is the result of training bias - just as these facial recognition hardware and software system designs have been biased by the test data they designed to excel on.

  34. Why is this a bad thing? by gebbeth · · Score: 2

    In our increasingly Orwellian society, I would be quite happy to have facial recognition technology be less effective on my skin tone (fair).

    --
    A closed mouth gathers no foot.
  35. triggered! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    check your white privilege, video slaves!

  36. Facial Morphology is an issue too by quietwalker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Facial morphology refers to the various traits and features in a face. For example, the distance between the eyes, or the eye slant, or cheek gaunt or whatever.

    'White' people have the broadest range of diversity, in part because aside from the skin color, there's a lot of differences. Certain Asians, like the Han Chinese, have some of the least diversity (google for iphone face recognition matching two Chinese co-workers).

    If you pick 20 key features as your unique code, and each of those key features has 20-30 distinct possible values, you can rely on reasonable uniqueness, even when some of those values have inter-relationships. When the diversity goes down, and 10 out of the 20 are not unique, and when the range of values those have is between 3 and 5, well, you'll have a lot more trouble differentiating people.

    In fact, a studies shows that among a given ethnic group, actual real life people perform facial recognition on only a few features, but those features are always those traits that show the most variation. When you apply that same algorithm to another ethnicity, it doesn't work so well. You get racist-seeming phrases like, "They all look alike to me," when really the issue is that your specialized detection algorithm was never meant to deal with their differences. ... and every group has this blindness. The one thing that's amusing is that because whites tend to have a large variety, they're the easiest to uniquely identify regardless of your personal/cultural/ethic technique. So, you can say things like "I can tell all you white people apart, you're racist for not being able to identify ME!" and think you're on the moral and ethical high road, when in fact, the situation is different from the other side.

  37. Maybe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

    Combine that with the typically horrendous lighting video cams face and you have a situation where recognition fails.

    That is a reasonable hypothesis, but we know cross-racial identification is hard, and training sets differ, so it is not the only reasonable hypothesis, and we would need to design a good study to verify it.

  38. Perhaps... by kenh · · Score: 1

    Rather than:

    some of the biases in the real world can seep into artificial intelligence, the computer systems that inform facial recognition

    Maybe the issue is lighting? Why does a simple thing such as AI to identify gender from a facial camera have to be an example of latent racism? As if programmers subtly, unconsciously, monkeyed with the algorithm to only work for white faces.

    --
    Ken
  39. Re: Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas T by HiThere · · Score: 0

    That's not the problem. The problem is the training set data. The algorithms weren't trained on many Gorilla photos, so they were extremely poor at recognizing them.

    It doesn't work exactly this way, but consider:

    1. you're given a photo a photo to classify
    2. So you compare it against the things you've already classified
    3. One of your rules is that categories that more commonly appear are more likely choices than categories that rarely appear.
    4. You compare it against your match set, but it doesn't exactly match any of them
    5. So you pick out certain feature:
        a) It's sort of vaguely human shaped
        b) The skin color is dark
        c) What the most common picture category that matches that?
    6. So you identify a gorilla as a black man, because pictures of gorillas are really unlikely.

    As I said, it doesn't exactly work that way, but that has many features of what caused the problem. But an example of how it doesn't really work that way is the picture of a plastic turtle that gets identified as a rifle.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  40. Geometry is detected by shadows (dark) by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The geometry is found by distinguishing between recessed a car with as, which are dark, next to relatively high areas, which are brighter. When the entire face is dark, it's difficult to distinguished shadowed areas, and therefore geometry.

    1. Re: Geometry is detected by shadows (dark) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So dark/light gradients are grayscale and those types of classifiers have known limitations. Do you know if you are biasing your weights on the gradient value or relative distances of positions for a giver set of gradients? Most likely your algorithm mixes the two without you noticing.

  41. Solved Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Invert the colors, look up in a different neural network and find matching patterns. This is not a technical problem.

    If you have an issue with contrast ratios, improve your lighting or capture process.

  42. Robot eye for the white guy by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    n/t

  43. OMG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now even facial recognition wants to be racist, nothing is sacred on the land of the free anymore.

  44. black and white minstrel anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before it was tacky but now it has a practical use. Stop the government from recognising us.

  45. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess the white/asian guys who make the software don't have black girlfriends? Only two ways to fix it. Date a machine learning researcher/coder or DIY.

  46. Unsighted facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whites smell like spoiled milk to me.

  47. Bias by tezbobobo · · Score: 2

    Why are we calling this bias? White males have the most range of unique identifying characteristics:

    * Beards

    * Moustaches

    * More tonal contrast

    * Difference in eye and hair colour

  48. FaceID works here by bug_hunter · · Score: 1

    Apple's FaceID uses infrared depth perception, where light contrast isn't an issue.

    Apologies for the inflammatory title https://www.gizmodo.com.au/201...
    They also went to the effort of testing it out on various ethnicities as well, so the AI didn't overly focus on areas that are different for one group but similar in another.

    I'm not saying that Face ID is "racist" or anything like that. I'm just happy there's a technical solution that solves this problem.

    --
    It's turtles all the way down.
    1. Re:FaceID works here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's still not perfect though. FaceID can be unlocked with similar facial structure (siblings, decedents).

  49. thats nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it may be hard for algorithms to distinguish detail on dark skin colored faces but recognizing Chinese people by AI is really marvelous state of the art that no white man can top .

  50. See, it's not just us... by superdave80 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Even computers think that all black people look alike!

    1. Re:See, it's not just us... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even computers think that all black people look alike!

      What about the big blow-up there was when Google (you know, the MOST diversity-embracing technology company in the world) had trouble differentiating black people from gorillas with their face recognition software.

      Ooops. Forgot about that!

  51. Genetic inferiority by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    niqqers dont have enough genetics to have major facial differences that why even for non computers it is hard for people to tell one niqqer from the other.

    Niqqers work like all the other genetic inferior animals and sniff each others butts to identify each other.

  52. First thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cunt from the meme "So what you're saying is all black people look the same?

  53. Re: Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas T by darth.hunterix · · Score: 1

    Wasn't it the opposite scenario? Black men were identified as gorillas?

    --
    What is best in life? Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.
  54. Also it's sexist by backwardsposter · · Score: 1

    I'm having trouble with the fact that it's so accurate at identifying men but not women. Gender politics aside, how does this work?

  55. Look the same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    so, even computers have found that blacks and Asians all look the same.

    Posting as anon for obvious reasons

  56. The answer comes from Art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You learn in art school that drawing (white people) is a critical matter of getting the eyes, nose and mouth right. You can literally draw ONLY eyes, lower nose and mouth and easily recognize the person being drawn.

    The thing is these are NOT the parts of the face that are unique for Asians or Blacks. For Asians, it's the outline of the head that's more unique (i.e. carries more information that differentiates individuals by appearance).

    So if you are using neutral nets, but especially convolutional NN, you can easily get this wrong by the wrong training sets and by the wrong pre-processing.

    In some ways, more anonymity by failed recognition means whites are more watched and surveilled but these others are more prone to false positives and negative results of that.

  57. One glance at my Amazon Prime Photos collection. . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . is all you'd need to know this. My wife is black, and Prime Photos tags dozens of random, unrelated black women as her. What's most frustrating is that you can't override or correct any of its mistakes.

  58. noise by lucm · · Score: 1

    It's not racist to point out that white males are the only group that can be objectified and labeled without spawning a twitter lynch mob. It may or may not be accurate, but it's not racist in any way or form.

    People like you who associate anything and everything with racism are a social cancer that is going to ultimately desensitize people to actual racism. Feel free to maintain your current trajectory of virtue signalling and self-righteousness but fundamentally you're an impediment to social progress, nothing else.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:noise by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Dyslexia?