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Facial Recognition Is Accurate, if You're a White Guy (nytimes.com)

Facial recognition technology is improving by leaps and bounds. Some commercial software can now tell the gender of a person in a photograph. When the person in the photo is a white man, the software is right 99 percent of the time. But the darker the skin, the more errors arise -- up to nearly 35 percent for images of darker skinned women, the New York Times reported, citing a new study. From the report: These disparate results, calculated by Joy Buolamwini, a researcher at the M.I.T. Media Lab, show how some of the biases in the real world can seep into artificial intelligence, the computer systems that inform facial recognition. In modern artificial intelligence, data rules. A.I. software is only as smart as the data used to train it. If there are many more white men than black women in the system, it will be worse at identifying the black women. One widely used facial-recognition data set was estimated to be more than 75 percent male and more than 80 percent white, according to another research study.

141 of 284 comments (clear)

  1. So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    For catching criminals then?

    1. Re:So it will be no good by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Sigh... Currently at Moderation: +4 70% Insightful 30% Interesting

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      Hell Segmentation fault

    2. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Do you have a source for that claim? Or are you just being racist against white people?

      Are there sources? We could provide sources for you all day.

      https://www.alternet.org/civil...

      http://abcnews.go.com/Politics...

      https://www.ussc.gov/research/...

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    3. Re:So it will be no good by arth1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Trump's a white guy isn't he?

      Orange is the new white?

    4. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      This is supported by reality, where white countries have been rewarded with the best, most-coveted civilisations.

      You've never been to Texas, have you?

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    5. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The first source is a story.

      Yes, a story listing examples of how white people can point guns at cops and live and black people cannot.

      The second is a political piece from the "politics" news section.

      Yes, a piece from the "politics" news section that includes citations to peer-reviewed studies.

      The third is not peer-reviewed

      The Commission's study was most certainly peer-reviewed.

      https://www.albany.edu/scj/doc...

      "The Commission used two methodologies to examine the updated data. The first
      methodology was the one the Commission used in the Booker Report. The second
      methodology was developed after the Booker Report was released to the public. Both
      methodologies were reviewed by two groups of outside researchers and academicians.
      The preliminary results of the analysis were then peer reviewed prior to release to ensure
      that the methodologies used were appropriate and the results correctly stated. "

      Emphasis added.

      nor isolates for variables such as severity of crime, prior offenses, different judiciary systems, or impact of criminal offense.

      Sure it does. Read through the commission's report again.

      "Based on this analysis, and after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to
      sentencing
      , the following observations can be made:"

      Again, emphasis added.

      https://www.albany.edu/scj/doc...

      Do you even science bro?

      Do you even read, bro?

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    6. Re: So it will be no good by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Statistically, they have better lives, and lead a more valuable and productive existence. Millenia of archeological proof.

      People in Africa had at least 50000 years of head start to make their lives more productive. They have plenty of natural resources too. It was their own choice to continue with tribal warfare until present day.

      white countries have been rewarded with the best, most-coveted civilisations

      They started with nothing, and made those themselves.

    7. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Kentucky

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    8. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When you expect others to cite, you expect the citations to match perfectly.

      Lets hold you up to your own standards.

      Yes, a story

      Worthless drivel meant for emotional, not rational appeal in order to muddy the waters.

      that includes citations to peer-reviewed studies.

      Ajit Pai and the Trump administration used peer-review citations too, and you criticized them for abusing them. I shall lay your claim upon that piece as well.

      The preliminary results of the analysis were then peer reviewed prior to release to ensure
      that the methodologies used were appropriate and the results correctly stated.

      If you wish to pretend that you are anything more than a liberal arts major pretending to know science, you must understand these words. Peer-review of preliminary results is not peer-review of the published paper. Peer-review of the methodologies and necessary conclusions based on that methodology is merely tangentially related to the correctness of the entire piece. If you had a science degree you would know that.

      after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to sentencing

      Claiming "a variety of factors" is quite vague and wishy washy isn't it? Be honest, if someone came to you with a ciation claiming global warming to be false "after controlling for a variety of factors relevant to climate science" would you be convinced? Because that exact process has already happened and you replied with childish trolling.

      You are nothing more than a myopic hypocrite actively seeking confirmation of your biases, devoid of critical thought.

      I repeat.

      Do you even science bro?

    9. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, a story listing examples of how white people can point guns at cops and live and black people cannot.

      lol. If you're stupid enough to think that a cop with a gun pointed at him gives a shit about the colour of the hand holding it, you can't possibly expect to be taken seriously in these kinds of discussions.

    10. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're stupid enough to think that a cop with a gun pointed at him gives a shit about the colour of the hand holding it

      Of course he gives a shit. There are centuries of examples in the United States to police giving white people the benefit of the doubt when black people would have been put under the jailhouse.

      I can't believe you're stupid enough to think that kind of long-standing prejudice just suddenly went away in the past 20 years.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Of course he gives a shit.

      "Oh hello Mr. Fellow White Citizen. May I inquire as to why you are pointing that firearm at my head? I'm sure you mean no harm, but you understand that I must ask."

      lmao. You have some incredibly entertaining delusions, buds.

    12. Re: So it will be no good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Andrew Finch, the white man recently shot dead by a SWAT team - was not even holding a gun.

      If you think prejudice and bigotry lurks behind every action you are either genuinely stupid, or willfully ignorant. Take your pick. Either way, that's how intelligent people see you.

    13. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1
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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    14. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's crazy. Who would have thought that a demographic which is insanely more likely to murder others is also way more likely to be killed by police.

      It's almost like there's something connecting those two statistics ...

    15. Re: So it will be no good by swillden · · Score: 1

      âoeAll the white men are wealthy and privilegedâ

      LOL

      You missed the "in societies where" that qualified the bit you quoted. I'm not claiming that any such exist (nor am I claiming that they don't), just that in such a society a face recognition algorithm that only works on white guys wouldn't be much use in catching criminals.

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    16. Re:So it will be no good by Pseudonym · · Score: 1

      Rich white psychopaths always have the option of becoming CEOs.

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    17. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      It's almost like there's something connecting those two statistics ...

      Yes, but not in the direction you think.

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      You are welcome on my lawn.
    18. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      What is it with all this American whitey stuff all of a sudden. Seriously you guys can bugger off. I am olive skinned, in my youth, you easy burning pink skins called me wog, dagoe and spic, now you call me fucking white, fuck you. I am olive skinned, I am a wog, you pink skins made your mess, now you can lie (tee hee) in it.

      Hey man, don't look at me. I'm Sicilian, I get bumps when I shave and I carry the gene for the Mediterranean version of sickle cell. I clap on the 2 and 4 beats and have a terrific sense of rhythm. You can watch me whip AND watch me nae nae. I'm looking forward to seeing Black Panther and can swag surf.

      I can't play a lick of basketball and have blue eyes, but by every other objective measure, I'm a person of color. Also, white girls love me.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    19. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Yes, but not in the direction you think.

      Ah, but of course. He dindu nuffin. He was a good boy. Da po po made him rob the store and shoot the clerk. If only they wasn't to ray-cist he might have been a rocket surgeon!

    20. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Ah, but of course. He dindu nuffin. He was a good boy. Da po po made him rob the store and shoot the clerk. If only they wasn't to ray-cist he might have been a rocket surgeon!

      Gosh, you're an idiot.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    21. Re: So it will be no good by c6gunner · · Score: 1

      Gosh, you're an idiot.

      That's adorable coming from the dipshit who thinks that cops are quite happy to be shot by white criminals, and that police shootings somehow magically make blacks more likely to be killers.

    22. Re: So it will be no good by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      I suggest you walk your honkey ass down the street of your posh little town and find the nearest heavily armed paramilitary thug ("cop"). Then point a firearm at him. Please be sure to have someone film your encounter.

      Most likely the law enforcer and his gangmates will blow you away in a hail of lead. There's a smaller possibility he may beat the living shit out of you, then lock you in a cage at a torture camp for a few decades.

    23. Re: So it will be no good by Reverend+Green · · Score: 1

      In many parts of rural West Virginia people leave their house doors unlocked at night. Because there's no crime. Despite the crushing poverty.

    24. Re:So it will be no good by eaglesrule · · Score: 1

      You're right. OP should have used the term 'violent criminals' for the sake of accuracy.

    25. Re: So it will be no good by GonzoPhysicist · · Score: 1

      You've got it backwards, Texas was Mexican first, then invaded by white folk.

      --
      horror vacui
    26. Re: So it will be no good by liefer · · Score: 1

      I'll only comment on your 2nd source as the others are worthless. Have you actually read the report? You should, it's very interesting. It uses the same statistical "analysis" that was used to come to the conclusion that women earn 30% less than men. Broad aggregates are not useful for much else than pushing an agenda. If you think i've misread the study, please let me know

    27. Re: So it will be no good by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Broad aggregates are not useful for much else than pushing an agenda.

      Broad aggregates of data are used in everything from economics to epidemiology.

      Why are "race realists" so anxious to discount data when it conflicts with their bigoted worldview? I see you've posted neo-nazi and white supremacist stuff here before, liefer, and also that as a European, you seem to have a lot to say about Republican politics. I don't have time or inclination to debate with you.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    28. Re: So it will be no good by liefer · · Score: 1

      Ah so you agree with univariate statistical analysis. Women do in fact earn 30% less than men. That really is terrible. Go add some more labels to me, see if that makes up for your intellectual inaptitude

  2. The laws of physics are discriminatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    White people's faces reflecting more light is problematic.

  3. Re: Facial recognition by sycodon · · Score: 5, Informative

    Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

    Combine that with the typically horrendous lighting video cams face and you have a situation where recognition fails.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  4. Stupid racist algorithms by mpercy · · Score: 2

    Always knew that machines were bigots.

  5. Re: Racist, or accurate? by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Have you ever watched some war move where all the actors are relatively unknown and are sporting a buzz cut?

    Can't tell one white guy from another, especially if they have similar builds.

    And when they later use camo face paint...forget it. All you can rely on is their voices

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  6. Re:Bias by lucasnate1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's official, I can no longer differentiate between alt-righters and SJWs, both just say "we're the victim and everybody else are raping/genociding/whatever us"

  7. Re:See: China by lucm · · Score: 1

    This will all even out over time. There are a finite number of facial types by race.

    If that's the case, then facial recognition will soon be useless.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
  8. Re: I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    It means there's a 50 percent chance you'll kill the AI in a drive-by before it has a chance to ID you.

    And wtf is "half white, half hispanic"?? You mean you're 100% white and you speak Spanish?

  9. Re: Facial recognition by bmo · · Score: 4, Funny

    What's the difference between porn and erotica?

    Lighting.

    --
    BMO

  10. Need to get a deep tan by ET3D · · Score: 1

    So the government will be less likely to know where I am.

  11. Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This reminds me of that ridiculous article (and accompanying video) saying that color film was biased towards white people. Around 3:30 in the video they have white and black people stand in front of a face-following camera and it doesn't work for the black people. Everyone acts like this is some sort of Harry Potter wizardry against the black man keeping him down when it's vastly simpler than that.

    For progressively darker skin, progressively higher light on that skin is required to reveal its contours. The fundamental problem is that white and light-skinned brown people have their normal skin color shades in the midtones when a scene is properly exposed while darker-skinned brown and black people are closer to shadows. To expose properly for facial recognition of dark brown or black skin, you have to overexpose the midtones to bring up the shadows. Since people rarely take photos on purpose that are exposed for the shadows while blowing everything else out, it should be fairly obvious that facial recognition (and early ISO 32 color film and small-sensor cameras like webcams and phone cameras) will have a very hard time with dark skin. Sure, it could be a lack of data in some instances, but it's far more likely to be the fact that the skin absorbs more light and photographs are generally exposed too low to reveal enough detail for the machines to analyze.

    If you think this is "racist" you're saying that the nature of light itself is racist. I don't feel like I should have to explain why that position is really stupid.

    1. Re:Here we go again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The solution is HDR photography (high dynamic range) imaging.

    2. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I'm going to assume that this is supposed to be a joke but the Poe's Law is strong with this one.

    3. Re:Here we go again by MrMr · · Score: 2

      Automatic exposure is normally calibrated for 18% gray (average outdoor scene). That means if you make a portrait of a skin tone darker or lighter than that you need to think what you measure and compensate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    4. Re:Here we go again by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Informative

      The point you missed is that set lighting for white people has to be carefully designed and set up. One of the reasons colour film took so long to become practical was the difficulty of getting skin tones right.

      If you look at early colour film the skin tones of white people are pretty good, but other colours are way off. Over saturated in places, washed out in others. It was a design decision.

      Vox is correctly pointing out that film from the era was not designed for dark skin, and that made it hard for non-white actors. Similar to how when sound came in a lot of actors lost work because they had thick accents.

      Note that the Vox article does not contain the word "racist" or even "race". It's pertinent because we are now seeing more black actors on screen and Hollywood finally figured out how to light them properly.

      --
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    5. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I'm looking at early color film and the dark-skinned people shown look pretty darn good. The more I look for images of dark skin on early color film the more I find evidence that goes against the assertion that early film was specifically made for "white" skin. Kodachrome seems to make everyone look pretty good.

    6. Re:Here we go again by zmooc · · Score: 1

      I suggest not to explain this in terms of exposure etc. because that will simply trigger a discussion on (early) photography technology development being racist.

      It's much simpler than that: the darker something is, the less light it reflects, the less information is present in it's appearance, the harder it is to recognize. This will always be the case and developments in photography technology will never solve it, they will alleviate the problem at best. If it is a problem, that is, because I think facial recognition will turn out to be a much bigger problem than badly exposed photographs.

      --
      0x or or snor perron?!
    7. Re:Here we go again by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      There are lots of different kinds of film, even from the same manufacturer. Different kinds of film are better at capturing different colors. There's long been film which was better for photographing whites, and film which was better for photographing people with dark skin.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:Here we go again by joe_frisch · · Score: 1

      I agree that a significant part of this is a physics problem. It would be possible to test whether or not this is algorithmic by training a recognizer on a high percentage of dark skinned people and seeing what its performance was like on light skinned people.

      A lot of modern cameras / cell phones have live face detection features. A photo setting that set exposure for faces would help this. People might not use it much though - if you have a dark skinned person in a scene, many people may still prefer the face to be under-exposed rather than the rest of the scene partially saturated.

      It would be possible to test whether or not this is algorithmic by training a recognizer on a high percentage of dark skinned people and seeing what its performance was like on light skinned people.

    9. Re:Here we go again by arth1 · · Score: 1

      The problem is not the nature of color and light. The problem is the sample data used to train this Ãoeartificial intelligenceÃ. If the trainer doesnÃ(TM)t think to include non-white people, the technology will suck at differentiating non-white people.

      That you yourself ague that it is inherently more difficult to distinguish non-white people compounds both the error and bias. Not against non-white people per-she, but simply in reflection of the view that white peoples matter most.

      Sigh. You start off so well in the first paragraph, and then you jump to unfounded conclusions. Feeding the facial recognition routines data that reflect the overall demographics is the unbiased approach. Feeding it 50% pictures of dark skinned people in a region with 20% dark skinned people would be biased, and precisely what you argue against.
      Yes, it will likely have problems with albinos, people with argyria or rickets, those who use the same dermatologist as Trump, full beard aficionados, and many others, due to less data. That's not a bias, but a lack of bias. The unbiased solution is not to increase the proportion of data for these groups, but to increase the overall amount of data so more data arrives also for these groups.

    10. Re:Here we go again by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      Better Off Ted: "Racial Sensitivity"

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt13...

    11. Re:Here we go again by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Sorry, but that's not the problem.

      In the summary the problem was stated to be the frequency of images in the training set data.

      The technical details you specify may be correct, but they are irrelevant to this particular problem. And they wouldn't explain the problem with recognizing women in any case.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    12. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      To be fair, Japanese people (and many East Asian people in general) are relatively light-skinned compared to other Asian races such as Indians.

      They (Vox) also spend a lot of time picking on Kodachrome film from Kodak which has a notoriously narrow dynamic range (about 6 stops compared to modern color film's 13 stops) and which was only available up to ISO 16 until 1961. At ISO 16 you have to expose around 6-7 times longer for proper exposure compared to the "sunny outdoors film" of the 1990s which was ISO 100. Kodachrome never made it past ISO 64 until 1986. Gee, I wonder why Kodachrome had difficulty making black people look good...I'm sure the answer is around here somewhere...oh yeah, because they're dark and the film's dynamic range was so bad that if you exposed the dark skin properly you'd blow out all the highlights and over-expose the midtones.

      Dark people being dark and throwing off imaging systems is not a problem that can be easily solved. What pisses me off is when people blame it on racist algorithms when the truth boils down to the "racism" of physics. Dark skin is dark. Dark things are harder for a camera to "see." Apparently this is shocking news to some people. What will solve the problem is improving our camera sensor technology to the point that even cheap cell phones and tiny-sensor webcams can differentiate enough features on a black person's face in typical indoor light (with heavy backlighting that usually drives the automatic exposure way too low) to recognize their faces. Adding more underexposed black faces to the machine's data set is not going to help much.

    13. Re:Here we go again by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      The fact that we call a portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum "light" is obviously racist.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    14. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      There was a children's book (I forget which, I think it was a Cat in the Hat one) where they turned on "darks" which did the same thing as lights except in reverse.

    15. Re:Here we go again by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Ha! I remember a Dave Barry column where he referred to lightbulbs as "darksuckers".

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    16. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      set lighting for white people has to be carefully designed and set up. One of the reasons colour film took so long to become practical was the difficulty of getting [white] skin tones right.

      I assume you've got a reputable source for this assertion, right? I mean, surely you didn't just pull it out of your ass (or the ass of a gender-studies course*).

      Pertaining to older movies, which ones are designed to be slanted in their color representations? I watched Spartacus, for example, which came out in 1960, and while the cast is certainly overwhelmingly white, there's a notable scene with Kirk Douglas and Woody Strode which hardly appears to be slanted against Woody in the color balance/saturation department. Is 1960 just too mature for the film-making era you're talking about? While color films certainly existed prior to 1960, keep in mind that color broadcasts weren't officially a thing in the US until 1953, and that color TV sets only really started to sell in the mid-1960's (only overtaking black-and-white sets in sales in the 1970's).

      In other words, Spartacus debuted when color motion pictures were still very much a novelty in daily life, and thus subjected to little scrutiny when technical details such as color balance or saturation weren't quite right. It also came out when racial sentiments were still decidedly anti anything not white, so I find it difficult to believe that the filmmakers would have ignored technical decisions informed by pro-white aesthetics, knowing that they could a) get away with it due to the novelty of the process and b) likely benefit with sales/reviews if they could make Kirk appear all that more appealing, even at the expense of Woody.

      * Yes, gender studies courses do pull things out the ass. I would know; I took one last year. The "professor" actually said that engine turn cranks were designed to be difficult to turn so that only men would be able to operate early vehicles... it wasn't a technical limitation or anything; no no, it was a conscious decision on the part of the patriarchy to restrict the movement of women.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    17. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      Well I guess you better get off your ass and implement a better algorithm, then. After all, light reflectivity isn't a problem for you.

      Also, what is the problem, in the summary, with recognizing women vs. men? This statement?

      more errors arise -- up to nearly 35 percent for images of darker skinned women

      Oh, wait... it's darker skinned women, not just women in general, that the summary references. Perhaps the technical detail referenced by the parent isn't irrelevant after all?

      No, I'm sure you're right, and will roll out that politically correct recognition algorithm of yours in no time at all.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    18. Re:Here we go again by nctritech · · Score: 1

      I bring up Kodachrome because the Vox video in particular uses Kodachrome examples to "prove" that film was biased against black people. I know other film stock existed but the point was that Vox was full of it. I have since made a response video to their "racist film" video in which I point out that the 1952 ISO 10/16 Kodachrome shot full of very dark-skinned people is exposed properly and the faces are visible with enough light.

    19. Re:Here we go again by TooManyNames · · Score: 1

      Nice. Make a bullshit assertion. Someone rebuts your bullshit with factual counterpoints. Cry "Triggerreed! Guilltay! Snawflarke!"

      By the way, where did you see a dig at women? The use of a gender studies (not even women's studies) example, illustrating how your ilk are eager to assign bigoted motivations -- without any evidence -- to genuine technical challenges, simply because such challenges may not impact everyone identically? Hmm, that seems very related to the topic being discussed... almost as if it's a recurring theme with you idiots.

      By the way, it's illustrative how you think I made a dig at women because I said that the assertion that early engine cranks were designed to be too tough for women to turn, is a bullshit claim. Why do you even accept that women had difficulty turning the crank, and men didn't, as the assertion requires? Isn't that an implicit dig on women on your part? After all, you're essentially saying that women lack whatever attribute is required to turn an engine crank while men don't. Seems kinda sexist to me... you sexist, you.

      --
      "Is not a sentence" is not a sentence. Well damn.
    20. Re:Here we go again by digibruce · · Score: 1

      I haven't RTFx'd at all here, but old-school photogs all know Kodachrome is great for shadow detail, which would back up your assertion that it did a good job with rendering detail in dark-skinned faces. Not just Kodachrome, but slide film in general is better at shadow detail, while print film is better at highlight detail. I always thought this had to do with physics, not a design choice. What I can say for sure is that photographers used to shoot *chrome (slide film) underexposed a half stop, to avoid featureless, blown-out highlights and to take advantage of the shadow detail.

    21. Re:Here we go again by jayesel · · Score: 1

      Most sane people have already commented on your post. It's clear, you miss that whatever is being measured is based upon some standard. What that standard is will determine what is the normal circumstance of the thing being measured. If it's dark skin, lights would be calibrated for that, to reveal contours as you say. Since it's light skin, the current lighting is calibrated to reveal the contours of that skin type.

  12. What if I told you by aliquis · · Score: 1

    the camera sensor work with light and since a paler skin reflect more light than a darker one the signal to noise ratio increase and more features will be visible and hence the program can do more of it's magic.

    Assuming you don't measure the whole scene and use the same exposure you could expose the image for longer (and get something more blurry due to movement) or raise the gain (and gain more noise) but the simple technological fact is that the darker skin will never be as easy to capture as the brighter one. Eventually both may still be good enough but that's the fact.

    As for whatever the algorithms somehow are worse for darker people I don't know. But to conclude that from a poorer result on them isn't evidence by itself, especially since there's a totally believable reason and prediction for why this would be the case.

    Similarly for women due to makeup their and hair work their appearance may change more plus also be harder to process both naturally and because they blend their skin to a smoother tone using make-up. Camouflage and disguise if you so want.

    Put a brown bag on your face and see how discriminating the algorithm become .. Then it won't have a clue!!

    1. Re: What if I told you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cats also re cameras: we have two. The tabby takes great pictures but then his coat is high contrast and full of vertical lines. The longhair is basically a grey fluffball. We can illuminate the crap out of him but the picture is a blur unless we can trick the focus on an edge near him or if he happens to look at the camera directly. Gotta have contrast for contrast-based focussing. And I would imagine the fiddly bits of the neural net ai needs it as well.

    2. Re: What if I told you by ScentCone · · Score: 2

      The tabby takes great pictures

      What sort of camera have you trained that cat to use when he's taking those pictures?

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  13. Re: Bias by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

    I'm glad it's not just me.

  14. Re:Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas Too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Wasn't there an article here on /. about some computer program classing some dark skinned people as gorillas?

  15. Re:Racist, or accurate? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    So, when the white guy struggles to differentiate black people with an "you all look the same to me" statement, it's automatically construed as racist and derogatory.

    It is? News to me, mostly because you're inventing outrage.

    Even the Grauniad doesn't say it's racist.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sc...

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  16. Re:I am half white, half hispanic.. so... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Does this mean it will only identify me half the time?

    In the US nobody is half white. You're either white, or whatever else.
    You'd have to be like 99% white before they stop calling you whatever else you are.

  17. Re: Facial recognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most of the time these cameras would work just fine if they adjusted the exposure properly. They have auto exposure but it's tuned either for general photography or white skin.

    The fix isn't that complex, and some kind of calibration could be done when setting up face recognition.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  18. Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    For recognizing people in a crowd, 99% is nearly worthless. That means if you are looking for one terrorist in a train station that services 300,000 a day your false positives are going to outnumber your actual hit 3000:1.

    1. Re:Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by hey! · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also known as the base rate fallacy. If you're looking for a needle in a haystack, an algorithm which correctly distinguishes them 99% of the time is useless.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by hey! · · Score: 2

      No, it will find "needles" all over the place, laced through the haystack. Just one of those tens of thousands of "needles" will actually be a needle.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It all depends on what you mean by 99% accurate. If you assume that is both the false positive and the false negative rate (that is, it will correctly identify the right person 99/100 times, and incorrectly identify the wrong person 1/100 times) then you have the base rate fallacy. If I am trying to catch 30 terrorists in a city of 1 million I am going to get ~100,000 false positives. My false positives will outnumber my valid hits over 3000:1.

    4. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by kenh · · Score: 1

      If I am trying to catch 30 terrorists in a city of 1 million I am going to get ~100,000 false positives. My false positives will outnumber my valid hits over 3000:1.

      No, you won't, unless you insist on submitting pictures of infants and senior citizens in your search for a dark-skinned middle eastern terrorist (you know, like in the movies).

      In a city of 1 million, half of them are the wrong gender, and given an equal spread of the population aged between 0 and 75 years, when looking for a 35 year-old male, you can likely exclude 75 of all men as too old or too young. So now we're down to 1/8th of the city, only 125K possible matches BEFORE we factor in ethnicity - when looking for an Asian man, why include blacks?

      Before I ever compare a picture that can be described as an Asian male roughly 35 years old, I've excluded up to 90% of the city before I ever start comparing faces. Having 1,000 faces to compare with a single face is a very workable number IMHO, given sufficiently important motivation (find the terrorist, stop an assassination of a world leader, you know - Jack Bauer-stuff).

      Remember, this is facial recognition - you have a facial image to start with - eliminating opposite gender, other ethnicities, and folks half or twice the age of the fellow in the photo in not racist, xenophobic, or whatever - it's a practical first step.

      --
      Ken
    5. Re:Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by kenh · · Score: 1

      That means if you are looking for one terrorist in a train station that services 300,000 a day your false positives are going to outnumber your actual hit 3000:1.

      What about false negatives, a failure to match correctly?

      You know that 99% probability resets with each new face - you aren't guaranteed a positive for every 100 comparisons, right?

      --
      Ken
    6. Re: Even 99 percent is nearly worthless by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      You are assuming the failure is a false positive, in which case you are right. I was assuming a false negative, in which case I am right.

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  19. Re: Racist, or accurate? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

    Face recognition doesn't care about hair style. It doesn't with like a human, it measures face geometry like the distance between the eyes.

    Camouflage make up works only if you design it to make it hard for the face recognition to see features like the eyes and mouth. Basic war paint has mixed results, especially with cameras that are IR sensitive for night vision.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Use infrared by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 2

    Then there is no discrimination. Kinect infrared for example does a great job leveling the playground.

    1. Re:Use infrared by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Are you sure? My guess is that melanin radiates in the infrared when exposed to light, so I would guess you've just altered the problem.

      Better to improve the dynamic sensitivity of the CCDs.

      OTOH, the real problem, as mentioned in the summary, was the set of training data. It learned to handle the most commonly appearing faces in the training data well, and didn't do as well on those things that were rare in the training data set, which happened to be both non-Caucasian faces and female faces.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    2. Re:Use infrared by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Yes, I use Kinect in nightclubs (custom software) and it sees the faces of all races and all major genders, to quote Dave Barry, equally well.

      Agree re the training set, I think if they retrained it on IR faces it would be much more robust since it would not depend on lighting.

    3. Re:Use infrared by scatbomb · · Score: 1

      Are you sure? My guess is that melanin radiates in the infrared when exposed to light, so I would guess you've just altered the problem.

      Why guess when you can look it up? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Short answer: Guess again! Melanin absorbs UV not IR.

  21. Re: Facial recognition by hey! · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't really think that is true, but it is true you need different lighting to pick up the nuances in a black face. Movies and TV shows for years have lit black actors in ways that wash out their faces by using rules of thumb that work for white faces. It's only in the last few years that we're seeing black actors properly lit.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  22. Re: Facial recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

    They have auto exposure but it's tuned either for general photography or white skin

    You mean that they overexpose black skin ? This means that the correct setting would produce darker results, with even less contrast.

  23. Re:Racist, or accurate? by Megol · · Score: 3, Informative

    Racist? Not really - just that one learns to identify people by looking at people. So Africans generally think Asians and "whites"* look all the same, Asians generally think "whites" and Africans look the same etc.
    Nothing strange or racist about that.

    Then add the fact that many people have problem identifying others from facial features alone we get a cultural aspect of this "look alike" thing.

  24. Re:Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It's official, I can no longer differentiate between alt-righters and SJWs, both just say "we're the victim and everybody else are raping/genociding/whatever us"

    You're just now learning that the bully always claims to be persecuted, to be suffering, to be the martyr?

    It's practically the first thing abusers learn to do, flip reality inside out, and make it so you're the one at fault. They're often quite frenetic about it, especially when you don't buy their bullshit.

  25. Re:Bias by Megol · · Score: 1

    Really? I think the terms are best described as "someone I don't agree with" and "someone I don't agree with that have some conservative views" - at least as used by idiots on the Internet.

  26. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    I have seen several black men make "we all look alike" jokes this year. I guarantee you it's a thing.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  27. Re: Facial recognition by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

    Underexposed, not over developed. The sensors are not getting enough light. You would have to increase the amount the light via shutter speed or aperture. But if you tuned it for darker faces, white faces would be washed out and the problem would be reversed.

  28. No Joy by SSonnentag · · Score: 1

    Another racist (Joy) concluding that the cause of something not considered ideal must be due to racist white men. Pure rubbish.

  29. Re: Racist, or accurate? by NeoMorphy · · Score: 2

    Actually that is literally the definition of racism.

    I just looked it up and it's literally not the definition of racism.

  30. Re:Bias by Luckyo · · Score: 1

    Horseshoe theory. They're two sides of the same racist coin.

    The only thing they diverge on is who is the ubermensch and who is the untermensch.

  31. Re: more like RACIAL recognition by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1
    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  32. Re:Bias by lucasnate1 · · Score: 1

    Wait, who is who?

  33. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They auto exposure algorithms they utilize are actually super simple and optimize for *average* scene intensity to be near the middle of the dynamic range of the camera. This isn't always optimal, but it *is* computationally efficient. The effect is that white people can be overexposed while the rest of the scene is very dark. It's actually very difficult to create an all-times optimal exposure control; they even screw it up at football games!

  34. Re: Facial recognition by arth1 · · Score: 2

    That's beside the point in this context, because with most facial recognition cameras, you don't control the light. Most of the time, it's going to be daylight, and sometimes street lights or store lights.

    That darker objects reflect fewer photons is always going to be the case. That's not racial bias.

    Fitness trackers with optical heart readers have a similar problem, where the light does not penetrate as well for darker skin. Some auto-adjust, with the unfortunate side effect of shorter battery life for dark skinned people. And some blast at too high intensity for everyone, and cause burn marks over time for the fairest skinned people, and make their heart beat harder to read.

    There's no real solution that fits everyone. People are different, and "one size fits most" is not going to be the optimum solution for either facial recognition, iris scanners, optical pulse monitors, or anything else. Accepting that someone from Iceland is likely going to absorb less photons than someone from South Sudan, and thus optical based equipment will work differently isn't racial injustice.

  35. also in human cognition by epine · · Score: 2

    Someone needs to test whether humans, also, decline in speed or accuracy of facial recognition when dealing with darker shades of skin colour.

    I know for certain that I have more trouble reading facial emotion from black people than white people. The naive response is that I live in a city that's 95% white. But I've been able to convince myself that this is the correct explanation. I simply feel like I have less visual data than I would otherwise at the same point in the cognitive process.

    Suppose I lived in a troop deployment in Afghanistan, and 90% of the people around me wore camo all the time. Would I actually become better at recognizing camo than civilian gear? But this is, indeed, the converse implication of the naive hypothesis.

    There are populations in Brazil that experience the entire range of skin tones on a daily basis. These populations could be tested for recognition rate/accuracy for lighter and darker test cases.

    I highly suspect that darker skin tone has a detectable coefficient of identity camouflage, also in human cognition.

    1. Re:also in human cognition by swillden · · Score: 2

      I know for certain that I have more trouble reading facial emotion from black people than white people. The naive response is that I live in a city that's 95% white.

      The more likely reason is that you grew up in an environment that was 95% white.

      It's well-established (many studies) that people are better at recognizing faces similar to those they grew up looking at. Just like with machine learning, human brains trained on white faces are better at distinguishing white faces, and human brains trained on black faces are better at distinguishing black faces.

      I highly suspect that darker skin tone has a detectable coefficient of identity camouflage, also in human cognition.

      That would not explain why Africans who grow up without seeing white faces think all white people look alike, but can easily distinguish black faces.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    2. Re:also in human cognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Recognising emotion is different to recognising identity. It's heavily dependent on culture. It took me a while to learn to recognise Chinese and Japanese emotions from people's faces, because they are different to British ones. I guess different shape faces probably had an influence too.

      But I don't think skin colour alone was much of a factor, which is what screws up these facial recognition systems.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  36. Why is this a bad thing? by gebbeth · · Score: 2

    In our increasingly Orwellian society, I would be quite happy to have facial recognition technology be less effective on my skin tone (fair).

    --
    A closed mouth gathers no foot.
  37. Re: Facial recognition by mapkinase · · Score: 1

    >Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out

    That's all there is to this. Let's go home. Seriously.

    --
    I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
  38. Re: Facial recognition by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

    If the cameras have their exposure calibrated for a white face (middle gray), but they are shown a black face, they will automatically increase light to make the face look middle gray again, and the face will be overexposed.

  39. Facial Morphology is an issue too by quietwalker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Facial morphology refers to the various traits and features in a face. For example, the distance between the eyes, or the eye slant, or cheek gaunt or whatever.

    'White' people have the broadest range of diversity, in part because aside from the skin color, there's a lot of differences. Certain Asians, like the Han Chinese, have some of the least diversity (google for iphone face recognition matching two Chinese co-workers).

    If you pick 20 key features as your unique code, and each of those key features has 20-30 distinct possible values, you can rely on reasonable uniqueness, even when some of those values have inter-relationships. When the diversity goes down, and 10 out of the 20 are not unique, and when the range of values those have is between 3 and 5, well, you'll have a lot more trouble differentiating people.

    In fact, a studies shows that among a given ethnic group, actual real life people perform facial recognition on only a few features, but those features are always those traits that show the most variation. When you apply that same algorithm to another ethnicity, it doesn't work so well. You get racist-seeming phrases like, "They all look alike to me," when really the issue is that your specialized detection algorithm was never meant to deal with their differences. ... and every group has this blindness. The one thing that's amusing is that because whites tend to have a large variety, they're the easiest to uniquely identify regardless of your personal/cultural/ethic technique. So, you can say things like "I can tell all you white people apart, you're racist for not being able to identify ME!" and think you're on the moral and ethical high road, when in fact, the situation is different from the other side.

  40. Re: Facial recognition by hey! · · Score: 2

    Actually it is on point with regard to testing.

    Anyhow, what you're saying black faces have less luminance -- well sure. That says nothing about contrast. The idea that there's less detail there to be seen is a result of looking at poorly lit photographs.

    The upshot is that if the problem is in the sensor's ability to handle a certain luminance range, by that theory the algorithms should perform better on black faces in very brightly lit conditions.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  41. Re: Colorimetric algorithm rather than geometric? by guruevi · · Score: 1

    Most algorithms I've seen convert to black and white before further classification. Color is mostly useless and quite expensive (4x as much data) to computers that use geometric features to classify pictures.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  42. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Ah yes, here comes AmiMoJo, expert at everything...so long as there is a social justice angle to the story. If not, suddenly he no longer wants to help, no longer an expert, and does not contribute.

    Someday I hope to have reasonable people running slashdot and prevent sockpuppet accounts from getting mod points.

  43. Re: Racist, or accurate? by arth1 · · Score: 1

    Face recognition doesn't care about hair style. It doesn't with like a human, it measures face geometry like the distance between the eyes.

    Yes, and no. While eye distance is a factor, it's not the only factor.
    Some of the facial geometry can and sometimes is obscured by hair style, whether it's hair obscuring the slope of the forehead, a lock obscuring the brow ridge, a moustache obscuring the mouth, or a full beard obscuring the entire jaw. For some, the eyes and nose is almost all data you have, while for others there are far more data points.

  44. Perhaps... by kenh · · Score: 1

    Rather than:

    some of the biases in the real world can seep into artificial intelligence, the computer systems that inform facial recognition

    Maybe the issue is lighting? Why does a simple thing such as AI to identify gender from a facial camera have to be an example of latent racism? As if programmers subtly, unconsciously, monkeyed with the algorithm to only work for white faces.

    --
    Ken
  45. Re: Facial recognition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    There's more than enough contrast for a convolutional neural net to work with. You could probably turn it all into 4 bit grayscale before training and still get excellent results.

    The explanation isn't what you propose, but unbalanced training sets. Failing any face is equally bad for the training algorithm. Whether its errors are equally divided among all subgroups, or concentrated in one of them, is equally good for the algorithm. Since it has more data on whites, it can profit more from focusing on features characteristic of them.

    You can change the training to penalize having a high error rate for subgroups. But this comes with tradeoffs. Better is to get more training data from the difficult subgroups, and train a better algorithm overall. The best way to get an algorithm that makes few errors on blacks (or any other subgroup) may just be to get an algorithm that makes few errors, period.

  46. Re:Bias by aevan · · Score: 1

    Horseshoe-theory

  47. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Actually, light skinned people have more variations in facial shape than do other groups. Second is darker skinned people. Orientals have the fewest.

    OTOH, in any particular area, the people from outside the area are likely to have more variation, because they have a wider variety of ancestors.

    That said, this *is* a bit strange, because the greatest genetic variation is among the population native to Africa. (Note I'm not even including the Australian aborigines. Which are a part of the facial variation of the darker skinned people.) So one would expect the largest variation among the darker skinned people.

    Additionally the homogeneity of the orientals is probably due to their long period of civilization. This is a guess, but it's a reasonable one. So there was a longer period of undisturbed gene flow among groups. Even so there are distinct sub-groups, just not as many as among other categories.

    A problem with this analysis is that I didn't include the population of the Indian sub-continent, as I couldn't figure out in which group to place them. They have darker skin colors, but have facial features that more closely align with the lighter skinned peoples. This is readily explained by historical analysis, but it does make categorization difficult.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  48. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 3, Informative

    The Summary said it was because they were underrepresented in the training data set.

    That's what you should first assume when an AI system fails at some particular kind of categorization, so it should hardly be surprising.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  49. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    racÂism
    ËrÄËOEsizÉ(TM)m
    noun
    prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
    "a program to combat racism"
    synonyms: racial discrimination, racialism, racial prejudice, xenophobia, chauvinism, bigotry, casteism
    "Aborigines are the main victims of racism in Australia"
    the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

    Weird, I don't see anything in there about thinking that people of other races look the same. Are you sure you got your definitions straight?

  50. Geometry is detected by shadows (dark) by raymorris · · Score: 1

    The geometry is found by distinguishing between recessed a car with as, which are dark, next to relatively high areas, which are brighter. When the entire face is dark, it's difficult to distinguished shadowed areas, and therefore geometry.

  51. Robot eye for the white guy by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    n/t

  52. Re: Facial recognition by jareth-0205 · · Score: 1

    Darker colors provide less contrast. Less contrast means features are more difficult to make out.

    Combine that with the typically horrendous lighting video cams face and you have a situation where recognition fails.

    This is precisely why people say diversity in IT is a good idea. Developers primarily develop for themselves, so if you are missing a large selection of the population in your company then there is a blindness there to those people's needs.

  53. Re: Facial recognition by NeoMorphy · · Score: 2

    Sorry, I misunderstood your previous statement. What you just said makes sense. If I understand what you are saying, attempting to compensate by overexposing will cause the face to look unnatural.

    You're right, they shouldn't overexpose as a solution since the point was to identify people from a normal picture. As opposed to using over exposed pictures that are focusing on image recognition. Unless it was an HDR+ picture, it would look really bad. Even an HDR+ picture would have issues unless people wanted portraits of themselves with unnatural skin tones.

  54. Re: Racist, or accurate? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

    I have seen several black men make "we all look alike" jokes this year. I guarantee you it's a thing.

    er...?

    Basically if you spend your time mostly hanging round with people from one race, people from other races will be kind of similar looking.

    On the other hand, it's crass to say "all X look alike" in seriousness because it's not true. All X might look alike to a particular person, but not to many many other people. Do people still say such things in seriousness? I've not heard something like that personally from since the 90s (they say the past is a foreign country... it really is). So if people are still saying it, then yes, people will crack jokes about it.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
  55. Bias by tezbobobo · · Score: 2

    Why are we calling this bias? White males have the most range of unique identifying characteristics:

    * Beards

    * Moustaches

    * More tonal contrast

    * Difference in eye and hair colour

  56. FaceID works here by bug_hunter · · Score: 1

    Apple's FaceID uses infrared depth perception, where light contrast isn't an issue.

    Apologies for the inflammatory title https://www.gizmodo.com.au/201...
    They also went to the effort of testing it out on various ethnicities as well, so the AI didn't overly focus on areas that are different for one group but similar in another.

    I'm not saying that Face ID is "racist" or anything like that. I'm just happy there's a technical solution that solves this problem.

    --
    It's turtles all the way down.
  57. See, it's not just us... by superdave80 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Even computers think that all black people look alike!

  58. Re: Facial recognition by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Strange you would make this about social justice, and not just an interesting technology problem. TFA doesn't mention racism or anything... It's almost like you are some kind of social justice obsessed warrior who has to bring it into every conversation.

    Have to agree with you about the sock puppets though.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  59. Re: Facial Recognition is Accurate for Gorillas T by darth.hunterix · · Score: 1

    Wasn't it the opposite scenario? Black men were identified as gorillas?

    --
    What is best in life? Hot water, good dentishtry and shoft lavatory paper.
  60. Re: Facial recognition by tripleevenfall · · Score: 1

    It's not the preferred nomenclature!

  61. Also it's sexist by backwardsposter · · Score: 1

    I'm having trouble with the fact that it's so accurate at identifying men but not women. Gender politics aside, how does this work?

  62. Look the same? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    so, even computers have found that blacks and Asians all look the same.

    Posting as anon for obvious reasons

  63. Re: Facial recognition by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    This does not seem accurate to me. I'd think that a video camera, having many more bits of resolution than the human eye, would do *better* at seeing color than the human eye.

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  64. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 1

    Sorry, this is from multiple different sources, not one, and different pieces were in different places. The scientific stuff was from places like Science News, and I only read the printed edition, so I don't have links to ANY of it.

    And no, orientals isn't a technical term, but I wanted to lump Melanesians, Polynesians, Chinese, Mongols, Korean, Japanese, and various south-east Asians together without including Australian aborigines or their close relatives. This isn't a closely related group, but it's a group that has had a lot of connected gene-flow over the centuries. Among these, I think the most variant are the Polynesians...though that's a guess. Even so, what I said doesn't quite fit for folks at the edges, and applies more closely as you get closer to central China. (Also, e.g., Japanese doesn't include such as the Ainu. I'm not sure where the Tibetans fit. etc.)

    Were I to guess the reason, I'd guess that it's because the lighter skinned peoples tended to live in small groups that moved around and were slightly more xenophobic than the orientals, while the Africans tended to stay in one place in small groups that were near close relatives. So neither of the two mixed much (relatively speaking). Also most of the African groups tended to be rather conservative, in the sense of resistant to change, which I attribute to low energy cause by the prevalence of parasites and diseases.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  65. Re: Facial recognition by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

    Reread your comment higher up the thread and try following the NPR link; the person ehose work is being reported is very much making this about social justice by saying that it is the fault of the code not being inclusive. If I was in her shoes, I would not consider this a bug but a definite feature given the privacy concerns facial recognition software has caused.

    As for the study itself... I would suspect the results are a combination of natural contrast, differing amounts of facial variation between ethnic groups and sexes...and this researcher likely being yet another one that forgets races other than Black & White exist.

    I suspect it's not just the contrast issue on the technical side, though. I wouldn't actually be that surprised given the hardwired elements of beauty standards if males of any ethnic group had a greater degree of variation in facial structure compared to the females--meaning that the issue may not be the lack of inclusiveness that the researcher claims, but rather merely that once again White men are the low-hanging fruit as they have more variation and good natural contrast. In fact, since I would be quite surprised if physical anthropology cannot give us full stats for variation rates and ranges in all groups, the degree to which White males might constitute 'easy mode' for facial recognition software should even be quantifiable...

  66. Re: Facial recognition by HiThere · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but the Native Americans (I'm not sure about the Innuit) belong with the light skinned people. Possibly the first migration, and possibly the last migration, into North America were different, but the vast majority fit with the light skinned people. Skin color is only a simple genetic change, and living in areas with lots of sun and few clothes will quickly cause a darker pigmentation to evolve. (I think it's only a change to one regulatory gene.) The first migration we can't say much about because they seem to have either died out or been totally absorbed. (I haven't heard of any studies of DNA found in their bones. I suspect they haven't been done. Some of the later ones have been done and were fairly clearly related to the northern Asiatic genepool, and I'm pretty sure that means the light skinned people.

    That said, some mixing wouldn't be a real surprise. I'm rather sure the Innuit used to go back and forth across the Bering strait all the time. And I rather suspect that the Aleutian islanders are as closely related to the Kuril islanders as to the mainland neighbors...or at least used to be before national boundaries caused travel restrictions. So for the Innuit to be Oriental would be no big surprise. That said, the Innuit used to go on long oceanic hunts, and the Bering strait isn't that wide, but sometimes storms will render it impassible. So I'm sure there was a lot of back and forth.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  67. Re: Facial recognition by jayesel · · Score: 1

    Well, the real question is what are you calibrating lighting against? This has been a problem with TV and print media for some time. Ask black actors from the 60's about the problems they had in lighting and filming darker skin. Makeup wasn't designed for black people, and the lighting certainly didn't evolve with people of color in mind. It's simple, white people were exclusive in these domains in this country forever, and as technology evolved around these domains, the built in bias determined zero consideration of anything other than "white" skin. It's not conscious it's institutional and has been, since forever, in this country. I mean the Egyptians, in their hieroglyphs, didn't have this problem with darker skin, go figure. This is an old problem, and it's only obvious now because people of color have equal access to the technology, but unfortunately are not well represented in tech at all levels. Trust me if Steve Jobs was black or a darker skin tone, that iPhone camera and every app would work a lot differently on darker skin. Snapchat might even work for me so I could put some pink ears on my head.

  68. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    Yes, I am quite certain. Off you go now ...

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  69. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    You looked it up in the wrong place. Psychology is at play, and all humans are tribal/racist by nature. Don't look in a dictionary to understand how the mind works.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  70. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    Must be working with one of them "progressive" dictionaries then. As soon as you succeed in reeducating the rest of humanity, we will all have no choice but to agree with you.

  71. noise by lucm · · Score: 1

    It's not racist to point out that white males are the only group that can be objectified and labeled without spawning a twitter lynch mob. It may or may not be accurate, but it's not racist in any way or form.

    People like you who associate anything and everything with racism are a social cancer that is going to ultimately desensitize people to actual racism. Feel free to maintain your current trajectory of virtue signalling and self-righteousness but fundamentally you're an impediment to social progress, nothing else.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
    1. Re:noise by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Dyslexia?

  72. Re:See: China by lucm · · Score: 1

    Your reading comprehension is faulty.

    If that were lucm's actual problem it'd be a thousand times better than the reality.

    Anyone who ever told you that you're clever, funny or witty was lying or stupid.

    --
    lucm, indeed.
  73. Re: Facial recognition by dwpro · · Score: 1

    As you say it's an interesting technological challenge, and no doubt that's the true focus. It is total happenstance that in the 2nd picture the researcher is featured against a whiteboard with the terms 'Racism', 'Sexism', 'Implicit Bias', 'LGBTQ Prejudice' and dubbed 'an advocate in the new field of “algorithmic accountability.”'

    --
    Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. -- Susan Ertz
  74. Re: Racist, or accurate? by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

    You don't understand the definition of the word "definition" in this case. It isn't about dictionaries, but rather memetic structure.

    --
    Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
  75. Re: Racist, or accurate? by c6gunner · · Score: 1

    So the definition isn't the definition? Nice. You sound like one of those "sovereign citizen" idiots who insist that the law isn't the law unless it agrees with their personal definitions.

  76. Re: Facial recognition by nctritech · · Score: 1

    Let me know when your "black coders" become imaging sensor engineers. You can't just magically code around limits set by the laws of physics.

  77. Re: Facial recognition by nctritech · · Score: 1

    Why is it that no one using the word "contrast" here seems to understand what the hell that word means? Light colors, dark colors...neither of those alone provide contrast. Contrast is the difference between high and low luminance areas in the same image. If someone has dark skin or light skin then the skin itself doesn't provide much contrast because it's mostly the same color anyway. However, lighter skin DOES provides very strong contrast against darker lips, shadows caused by light not being uniformly projected such as under nostrils or under eyebrows or in the contours of the ears, dark eyebrows and eyelashes and hair, a pair of dark-framed eyeglasses, and so on. Dark skin reflects significantly less light which means that these areas of contrast for light skin have far less contrast against the dark skin. Black beside dark brown will be harder to see than black against peach or olive or pink or yellow.

    Face-detection software relies on the simple contrast of several facial features mostly around the eyes to lock on to a face; facial recognition requires vast amounts of information beyond that which are more likely to be too lacking in contrast for dark-skinned faces to make out. It doesn't take very much underexposure in typical indoor shooting conditions for a black face to look mostly like a noisy macroblock-mangled oval with eyes and teeth to facial recognition software. That's not racism, that's just how light works, and given that most pictures to be recognized are likely to be casually shot I see no way to magically code around such problems.

  78. Re: Facial recognition by bmo · · Score: 1

    "I mean the Egyptians, in their hieroglyphs, didn't have this problem with darker skin, go figure."

    This is fucking late, but...

    They had to come up with makeup for Lena Horne, and they called it "light Egyptian." They couldn't call it "makeup for dark skin" or "Lena's Makeup" or some such because it was that "exotic."

    I remember the interview she had on 60 Minutes and she chuckled about the absurdity.

    --
    BMO