Vietnam's Internet is in Trouble (wapo.st)

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Vietnam's Internet is in Trouble (wapo.st)

Posted by msmash on Monday February 19, 2018 @09:00AM from the tussle-continues dept.

The World Post: Vietnamese authorities have harped of late on the urgency of fighting cybersecurity threats and "bad and dangerous content." Yet the fight against either "fake news" or misinformation in Vietnam must not be used as a smoke screen for stifling dissenting opinions and curtailing freedom of speech [The link may be paywalled]. Doing so would only further stoke domestic cynicism in a country where the sudden expansion of space for free and open discussion has created a kind of high-pressure catharsis online. Other countries, including democratic states, are also scrambling to rein in toxic information online. But while Germany, for example, specifically targets hate speech and other extremist messaging that directly affects the masses, Vietnamese leaders are more fixated on content deemed detrimental to their own reputation and the survival of the regime.

The ruling Communist Party of Vietnam has repeatedly urged Facebook and Google to block "toxic" information that it said slandered and defamed Vietnamese leaders. Google sort of conformed by removing more than such 5,000 clips; Facebook also flagged about 160 anti-government accounts at the behest of the government.

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The trouble with "hate speech" by Obfuscant · 2018-02-19 09:06 · Score: 3, Insightful

Is that the government gets to define it. Like Germany where they prohibit speech that they define as hate speech, Vietnam also prohibits speech they define as hate speech.
The best solution is to not allow the government to prohibit speech, so then there is never an issue with who defines what how.
I'm not sure how someone having a blog that mentions Hitler and Nazis "directly affects the masses", but I'm sure German officials could answer that.
1. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by PolygamousRanchKid+ · 2018-02-19 09:19 · Score: 1
  
  The best solution is to not allow the government to prohibit speech, so then there is never an issue with who defines what how.
  "Ring . . . ring"
  "Hello, Vietnam . . . ? This is Slashdot calling. We just wanted to let you know that we decided that y'all are not allowed to prohibit speech anymore."
  "*click*"
  "Hello . . . ? Hello . . . ?"
  
  --
  Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
2. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-19 09:45 · Score: 1
  
  You can have a blog that mentions Hitler and Nazis as much as you want.
  What has that to do with hate speech?
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
3. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-19 09:51 · Score: 2, Informative
  
  You are mixing up communism with totaliarism.
  China is communist/totaliarian with a capitalistic economy.
  And I doubt their free speech laws are worth than other countries.
  There are plenty of levels of democracy, actually China considers itself a democracy, go figure.
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
4. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by Obfuscant · 2018-02-19 09:53 · Score: 1
  
  You can have a blog that mentions Hitler and Nazis as much as you want.
  Of course I can. I don't live in Germany.
  Also of course, I should have referred to the use of the swastika and not just a mention of the names. Please continue in that context. (Note that the swastika is a perfect example of "hate speech" being defined by the government. Germany says "it is", Korea says "it isn't".)
  As for those who seem intent on pointing out that Slashdot cannot keep Vietnam from prohibiting speech, yet another "of course". I wrote of the best solution, which isn't necessarily possible, and which isn't necessarily available to those who are outside the system. "The system" also means "in the power structure" for those countries where the people are not the power structure. Neither Slashdot nor Vietnam has any input into the US Constitution, which is where the US founders tried solving the problem, so it should have been obvious what was being said.
5. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by gtall · 2018-02-19 10:09 · Score: 1
  
  Given the Chinese government companies and intervention in companies, China government+economy is better described as being Fascist.
6. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by epyT-R · 2018-02-19 10:52 · Score: 2, Insightful
  
  A culture that must be shielded from such inanities (including screeds like yours) in order to survive is not fit for survival. Instead of teaching children to be adult snowflakes like the left does now, we should return to teaching them how to handle adversity.
7. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by Solandri · 2018-02-19 11:18 · Score: 1
  
  I agree with you that the best solution is not to allow governments to prohibit speech. But it should be pointed out and Germany and Vietnam actions are not entirely indefensible. The problem is the same thing as with Wikipedia edits. You have a small group of hardcore people who sit on "their" articles, undoing helpful edits by other casual users, and making sure the article reflects what they want it to say rather than what the population at large wants it to say.
  
  Likewise, the people behind these "hate speech" sites have a vested interest in publicizing and spreading what they're saying. Moreso than those who oppose them have an interest in refuting or publicizing opposing viewpoints. The net result is that the online presence of the message from these hate speech sites on the web is disproportionately larger than their actual presence in terms of population.
  
  I'm not sure what the solution is. If it were easy, Wikipedia would've already implemented it. But like Wikipedia, Germany and Vietnam have decided their solution will be to appoint certain people to oversee everything and try to stop this when they see it occurring. The fly in the ointment being that those people are themselves vulnerable to bias and corruption. (Vietnam's (and China's) case is also a bit different in that the minority viewpoint exhibiting disproportionate control can be the government's. That's a problem faced by all governments not subject to popular election.)
8. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-19 11:22 · Score: 1, Informative
  
  I certainly am not confusing them. It's one thing to talk about what somebody says communism is, versus what it actually is.
  Karl Marx himself stated that communism must begin with the violent overthrow of democracy. And as it turns out, that is what communist revolutions always do (besides depriving you of your life savings and turning your home over to the state to do whatever they want with.)
  The problem is, they never actually bring back democracy. They all create a pretend democracy, and even put words like people's, republic, and democratic in the official name of their state. Pretend democracy isn't democracy, it's either an oligarchy or a dictatorship.
  Disagree? Then prove it: How many communist revolutions were democratically elected? And how many communist revolutions ever allowed free speech? There have been many communist revolutions around the world, so if what you say is true, then at least one should meet both criteria.
  Bonus points if you can name one communist revolution that hasn't either economically switched to capitalism, or closed their borders so nobody can leave.
9. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by skam240 · 2018-02-19 12:22 · Score: 1
  
  Well off the top of my head the Spanish election of 1936 saw a communist party along with similarly aligned party's come to power in a coalition. They didn't get very far at governing though as Franco decided that he should start the Spanish Civil War.
  You're spot on with your Marx and your generalities are generally true so I'm not really saying your point is incorrect though.
  
  --
  I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
10. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-19 13:01 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  Karl Marx himself stated that communism must begin with the violent overthrow of democracy
  Citation is needed!
  In fact, Marx has never discussed anything about how to archive communism.
  One of the form of communism in idea of Marx is that the government must be exterminated, how does that mean "overthrow of democracy" when there would be not rulers at all?
  Don't mixed the **interpretations** of Marx's ideas of Lenin, Mao, Stalin... in as Marx's ideas!
11. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ShanghaiBill · 2018-02-19 13:16 · Score: 1
  
  Disagree? Then prove it: How many communist revolutions were democratically elected?
  In 1946, the communist party won a plurality in Czechoslovakia, in an election that was generally considered fair.
  The Czechs lived to regret it, but they did vote for communism. At the time, they feared a resurgent Germany far more than they feared the Russians, and they had clear memories of how Britain and France had betrayed them in 1938. Many saw a communist government as the best way to ensure their future protection by the Red Army.
12. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-19 13:20 · Score: 2
  
  Disagree? Then prove it: How many communist revolutions were democratically elected? And how many communist revolutions ever allowed free speech? There have been many communist revolutions around the world, so if what you say is true, then at least one should meet both criteria.
  Communist revolution? Actually, one must ask there really actual communist revolutions out there!
  It's not that "because Soviet was failed so they - communists try to lie that Soviet was not communism". It's ironical that who predict the fall of Soviet and was vocally against Stalinism or Leninism or Trotskyism, etc are Marxists themselves:
  This is from 1931 article of Socialist party of Great Britain: http://www.worldsocialism.org/...
  
  The wage-labour system in Russian State industries, like the system here and elsewhere, is a system of Slavery. The spread of piece-work will intensify the slavery ; it will enable the "Communist" rulers to squeeze more surplus-produce out of Russian workers, just as it has helped the Conservative and Liberal capitalists of this country. Alleged "quotations" in support of it from Marx merely brand Stalin & Co. as hypocrites and their followers as ignorant dupes. The Russian Government must make a profit in order to pay interest upon its loans if for no other reason, and this fact alone is sufficient to explode the myth that Russian State industry is run on Socialist lines.
  The Russian Government has to borrow money to run its industries, like any other capitalist concern, because it has to pay for machinery and raw material, because its employees have to pay for the food, clothes and houses they need; because, in a phrase, all the means by which these requirements are produced are private property. It has not established an oasis of Socialism in a capitalist desert. Had it tried to do so it would have been speedily annihilated.
13. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by phantomfive · 2018-02-19 14:38 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I'm not sure what the solution is
  "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence." --Justice Sanford.
  
  Oppressing speech with censorship, even if the speech is made of lies, will never be effective, and can easily make the problem worse. If good people are not willing to speak up, then there is no hope for the country.
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
14. Re: The trouble with "hate speech" by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 16:09 · Score: 1
  
  In Vietnam people are encouraged to vote in elections. I've seen the propaganda posters myself. In most elections there will be 2 to 4 candidates to choose from.
  Of course, those candidates are all Communists. Just like candidates in American elections are all capitalists.
15. Re: The trouble with "hate speech" by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 16:11 · Score: 1
  
  Brownshirt thugs FTW!
16. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-19 17:02 · Score: 1
  
  "the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."
  https://www.marxists.org/archi...
  Make no mistake about it: This IS the language of a would be dictator. He even talks about having a concentrated power structure to boot.
  Communist revolutions work by terrorizing and then enslaving (putting into forced labor and forced indoctrination) the local population until it bends to the will of the communist party.
  Democratic revolutions are the total opposite: They focus on liberating the local population without forcing them to favor any particular political leader or party.
  Sure, Marx will talk about having elections (as most dictators do) but even if this does happen, the moment anybody speaks against his principled ideals and gains any kind of traction among the general public, Marx will label them as counter-revolutionary and have them killed and/or decide that the population isn't "educated" enough in a concept that Marx literally invented himself using a very flimsy basis for an argument that it will work. So the election process, if there is one at all, will be severely restricted.
17. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-19 17:08 · Score: 1
  
  While you're at it, could you name one capitalist country that hasn't either economically switched to fascism or quasi-socialism? Or do you think all those factories are spewing out not-as-toxic air because capitalism? Or the ones that do aren't being supported by a fascist regime?
  Fascism has a limited element relating to economics, which basically forbids somebody from running a business if the government determines that the business model is bad for society for purely social reasons. In Germany, this manifested in banning pornography businesses, among other things. Many people today, most often democrats, are not philosophically different from this. If you've ever read somebody on slashdot who says "such a business shouldn't be allowed to exist" because it goes against their ideology of what society "ought to be like", (usually their target is corporations in the financial sector) then at least economically, the only difference between them and a fascist is that they hate different things.
18. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-19 18:35 · Score: 2
  
  In 1946, the communist party won a plurality in Czechoslovakia [wikipedia.org], in an election that was generally considered fair.
  The communist party won 38% of the vote, which was achieved by deceiving the public. What they got was the largest number of seats in parliament, what they didn't get was a revolution, and they were expected to lose the next election pretty badly. Of course, being communists, they would have none of that. The revolution happened after the communist party staged a coup and overthrew the democratic government, forcibly removing all of the other elected parties and installing a single-party concentrated rule, as Karl Marx himself proscribed in the past.
  So no, that really doesn't count. At all. If the democratic government had been allowed to work as it was intended, the communist party would have been voted out, never to return.
19. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-02-19 19:20 · Score: 1
  
  Bullshit. Democracy just says whomever they don't like is terrorist and deny them ability to run in election. Or deny them right to rule in case they manage to run and win. See what is going on in Spain / Catalonia. Democracy at its best.
  And whenever the wrong party wins, they are labeled communists/terrorists and you break all ties with them. You even terrorize them, sabotage them,... Go read history central and south america, how your cia was spreading democracy in nicaragua for example, where people kept voting "undemocratic" option and you kept fighting them for it (burning schools, killing farmers, ...)
20. Re: The trouble with "hate speech" by lucasnate1 · 2018-02-19 22:40 · Score: 1
  
  In that case, according to your definition, no culture is fit for survival.
  
  --
  Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
21. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-20 02:54 · Score: 3
  
  Karl Marx himself stated that communism must begin with the violent overthrow of democracy.
  No, he did not say that.
  You are an idiot.
  During Marx times, he btw. was German, most countries had no or no real democracy.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  Then prove it: How many communist revolutions were democratically elected?
  AFAIK there were no communist revolutions on the planet so far ...
  And as it turns out, that is what communist revolutions always do (besides depriving you of your life savings and turning your home over to the state to do whatever they want with.)
  That is nonsense. Private house owners always existed in the DDR (German democratic republic), and BTW: they where not communist, they where socialist.
  However: you get some bonus points however when you can explain how democracy actually works in a typical communist/one party system, the retarded US two party system and a democratic multi party system. And please take extra care to explain why a communist one party system is not or can not be democratic!!
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
22. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-20 02:59 · Score: 1
  
  Communist revolutions work by terrorizing and then enslaving (putting into forced labor and forced indoctrination) the local population until it bends to the will of the communist party.
  You people should really start to read some books ...
  The to big revolutions were in China and Russia.
  What kind of government got overthrown? What living conditions did the masses have before that?
  Hm? You funktards don't know that those revolutions overthrew totalitarian governments where 90% of the populations where bond slaves or "peons" or "peasants" hold like slaves on fields?
  Are you really that dumb and ill educated?
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
23. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-20 03:09 · Score: 1
  
  So, NAZI Germany, Franco Spain, Mussolini Italy ... or lets go a bit back in time: Luis XIV, the Medici in Vienna, the Ottoman Empire, Djenghis Khan, Neros Rome, Leonidas' Sparta etc. p.p. were all communist?
  I don't think so ...
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
24. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-20 03:14 · Score: 1
  
  Of course I can. I don't live in Germany.
  Yeah, and what is the point? You also can have it in Germany, dumb ass. Oh sorry :D but that was a dumb ass comment.
  (Note that the swastika is a perfect example of "hate speech" being defined by the government. Germany says "it is", Korea says "it isn't".)
  I'm pretty sure you can use a swastika in a blog, why should you not?
  Here is a blog, explaining why the Swastika is banned https://politische-bildung-bra...
  Surprisingly it has a Swastika on the first page on the top ... (facepalm)
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
25. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by yuriklastalov · 2018-02-20 05:53 · Score: 1
  
  So the Chinese are the "Real Nazis(TM)"?
  Explains their hardcore racism and apparent desire to create genetically modified Superhumans. If they hadn't already snapped up their Lebenstraum back in the 50s I'm sure we'd be seeing the Chinese goose stepping over their neighbors.
  Why are we propping up the Chinese? Could it be that their political system is the envy of the Neoliberals? Libtards would love to be able to squelch "right wing Nazi bigots" the same way the god damn gooks can. If the neoliberals thought they could have gotten away with gunning the Alt-right down in the streets in Charlottesville they would have done it in a heartbeat.
26. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-20 06:00 · Score: 3, Informative
  
  I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.
  Henry Kissinger
27. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by CODiNE · 2018-02-20 06:16 · Score: 1
  
  I know a guy who believes the govt is run by lizard people... I can't change his mind so, well it's his right.
  I'd rather live in a world with guys like him than a world where nobody could say lizard people existed.
  
  --
  Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
28. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-20 06:27 · Score: 1
  
  First of all, remind that, at this time there was no "communist party", and no "communist revolution".
  In the article you cited, what I read is how Marx observed the events, and his conclusion is still true today, not just "communist revolution", how about "Arab Spring", recent clashes in Venezuela,... That is when the conflicts between the old and the new societies reach the unreconcilable level, there only one way happens, revolutionary terror.
29. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-20 13:23 · Score: 1
  
  You can downmod me to your heart's content, I honestly couldn't care less about karma points. My comments are completely on topic and relevant. Because you have nothing better to do than follow my posts and mod-bomb, obviously you need to find something else to do far more than I do. So why don't you just go outside and play hide and go fuck yourself?
30. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-20 13:33 · Score: 1
  
  Fascism doesn't necessarily have a racial component to it. After all, it was co-founded by a jew. Nazism does, however, and it is really a superset of fascism, thus you can have fascism without nazism. But yes, the Chinese government economically behaves similar to fascism.
31. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-20 14:23 · Score: 1
  
  Republicans want to ban porn, condoms, marijuana, etc.
  I'm pretty sure that's just catholics on all counts, even many on the democratic side. I don't think I've met a non-cathoilic republican that wanted to ban porn or birth control. Marijuana...actually it seems more republicans are in favor of marijuana. In any of these cases though, I haven't seen any popular demand to close all pornography or condom companies, and strip clubs (which would be the most "risque") seem to be very popular in red states.
  
  Democrats want something more closer to socialism--ie, regulation with restrictions on who can own.
  That's not socialism. Socialism stipulates that the means of production is owned by the state. We have very limited occurrences of that here in the US. For example, it's common for water utilities to be effectively socialized because the employees work for and are paid by a governing entity. Many people think medicare is socialism, but it's not, it's actually a form of welfare similar to food stamps, because the government is paying private providers on your behalf so that you can get medical treatment (or food in the case of food stamps.) People often mistakenly label Scandinavian countries as socialism, but it's just not true, the correct term is a welfare state. There are no prosperous states that are primarily socialist.
  But regulations on who can own (and I'm not sure what you're referring to by this,) that's more like fascism.
  
  Communism is definitely much worse at it for it strays so heavily away from the stated ideals
  This is by sheer necessity alone. Stalin himself favored a parliamentary system in the beginning, until he realized that it didn't work. Other than that, they actually quite well followed Marx, who said they must violently overthrow democracy, become socialist first, and then become communist. The problem is that move to communism was just too impractical; USSR moved towards the whole stateless thing early on, but they found out the hard way that without codified laws and a governing entity to enforce them, civilization just falls apart, and then people really suffer. A buddy of mine who was born in Poland before the fall of the iron curtain told me that schools would tell the kids that they weren't communism yet, but they are actively working towards that. That was a mere few years before the fall.
  
  the notion that capitalism is some beacon of freedom without government interference
  Few people actually believe this to be the case. There are varying opinions on what regulations help the economy and which ones harm it (and both kinds do exist.) It's well known that capitalism feeds on stability, and you can't have stability without the rule of law. Why would you risk your money to start a business if you have no guarantee that a bigger business won't firebomb you to eliminate you as a competitor? Why would you risk investing in another business if you have no safeguards to prevent fraud?
  Relevant here: Socialist/communist governments feed on despair because it helps their propaganda machine work: They just blame all of their country's problems on capitalism.
32. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-20 15:10 · Score: 1
  
  Chapter 4 of the communist manifesto should help clarify:
  
  In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.
  In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.
  Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.
  The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
  
  https://www.marxists.org/archi...
  More sources here if you want to read everything about how Karl Marx proposed creating a dictatorship of the proletariat:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  Notable in there is Marx's rejection of the Gotha Program. Also pay attention to what Engels says about authoritarianism. Remember, he co-wrote the communist manifesto.
33. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-20 18:02 · Score: 1
  
  No, your previous comment is exactly what AC mentioned. The Soviet economy is actually state capitalism (mentioned above, deformed capitalism economy), which has the properties of capitalism system.
  The case of China is to abandon the monopoly of the state with the economy and (it's important, it happened when China decided to against the Soviet) the Wests were lift off embargo against the country.
  If not for the investment, it's impossible for an economy no matter Soviet-style or Western-style would survived.
34. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-20 18:40 · Score: 1
  
  Marx was notorious for using 'obfuscated' words for exact translation, if not known what he was really meant and the context.
  As mentioned in my previous comment, Marx did not consider the "dictatorship" and "revolution" as the tool of "minority" to "take control" powers. The armed force revolution is the result of old "weaken" societies refuse to transform to new societies, despite the will of the mass (in this case, the proletarian class is a larger group).
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
  
  In 1875, Marx attacked the Gotha Program that became the program of Social Democratic Party of Germany (SDP) in the same year in his Critique of the Gotha Program. Marx was not optimistic that Germany at the time was not open to a peaceful means to achieve socialism, especially after German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck had enacted Anti-Socialist Laws in 1878.
  "If in England, for instance, or the United States, the working class were to gain a majority in Parliament or Congress, they could, by lawful means, rid themselves of such laws and institutions as impeded their development, though they could only do insofar as society had reached a sufficiently mature development. However, the "peaceful" movement might be transformed into a "forcible" one by resistance on the part of those interested in restoring the former state of affairs; if (as in the American Civil War and French Revolution) they are put down by force, it is as rebels against "lawful" force."
  for clearer, this what Marx thought about "dictatorship", not for gaining power, but for disproving the power of the minority (old societies):
  
  While Marx viewed the state negatively as an instrument of class rule that should only exist temporarily upon the rise to power of the proletariat and then dismantled
  In the manifesto (in your comment) above:
  
  In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.
  Finally, they labour everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.
  
  And this,
  https://www.worldsocialism.org...
  
  In 1848, in the Communist Manifesto they wrote:
  "We have seen above, that the first step in the revolution by the working class, is to raise the proletariat to the position of ruling class, to win the battle for democracy."
  
  But note the point, Marx does not refer or say that only a minority of the working class would or need take control of political power during the period of the "transformation of the one into the other.”
  .....
  We repeat that the dictatorship in Russia is not the “dictatorship of the Proletariat" in the Marxian sense of the term. On the contrary, it has been the dictatorship of a party, a party which in the earlier stages of their conquest of power actually deprived its own members of the power of voting.
35. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-21 13:18 · Score: 1
  
  I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.
  Henry Kissinger
  That's fine, but I don't care about Kissinger.
36. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-21 14:06 · Score: 1
  
  You people should really start to read some books ...
  And you should read the communist manifesto itself. I've detailed this in another post.
  https://slashdot.org/comments....
  
  The to big revolutions were in China and Russia.
  What kind of government got overthrown? What living conditions did the masses have before that?
  Hm? You funktards don't know that those revolutions overthrew totalitarian governments where 90% of the populations where bond slaves or "peons" or "peasants" hold like slaves on fields?
  Sure, there are many cases where bad governments were overthrown, just as there are many cases where democracy was overthrown. In either case, there are plenty of times when what they overthrew was better than what they had before. Take for example Cuba, under Batista the country was in the top 5 developed countries in latin america, had a GDP similar to most of Europe, and worker wages were increasing. Yes, Batista was an asshole, and yes, he himself overthrew democracy, and yes, he was killing many of his dissidents, and yes, he removed a lot of liberties. Communism did all of that too, AND made people poorer, AND made people starve. If you look at Cuba today, it's basically frozen in 1959. That is saying a lot for communism though, because most communist states at that time were frozen in time from revolutions much earlier. When the communist states fell apart and capitalism took its place (as it naturally does when there is nobody enforcing some other system,) they started growing in wealth almost immediately and became developing economies, with or without democracy, though democracies fared better.
  
  Are you really that dumb and ill educated?
  No, but you are dumb and ill educated about communism. All you have to do is read any of Marx's or Engel's writings on the subject of revolution and violence, and it's pretty obvious that while they stated that they wanted democracy, their direction was totalitarianism that was supposed to advance to highly concentrated powers. Mao more or less did this, but most totalitarians never want to give up power.
37. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-21 14:44 · Score: 1
  
  Karl Marx himself stated that communism must begin with the violent overthrow of democracy.
  No, he did not say that.
  You are an idiot.
  It's in the communist manifesto, and he stated it in other publications as well.
  https://slashdot.org/comments....
  
  AFAIK there were no communist revolutions on the planet so far .
  Just as there have been no true Scottsmen on the planet so far. (Don't combine the past and the present perfect progressive in the same sentence when.)
  https://slashdot.org/comments....
  
  That is nonsense. Private house owners always existed in the DDR (German democratic republic), and BTW: they where not communist, they where socialist.
  No, they were neither, kind of like China and Vietnam now are. Sure, they officially had a socialist system, but in practice the private sector was still allowed to operate there, and over time it began to outproduce the public sector.
  
  However: you get some bonus points however when you can explain how democracy actually works in a typical communist/one party system
  Easy, they have one party, and within it they have a very concentrated power structure. Marx stated this as well.
  
  the retarded US two party system and a democratic multi party system
  By multi party, you are referring to a parliamentary system. But ironically, the two party system of the US provides for a more broad separation of powers with more checks and balances between them than the parliamentary system, which is by and large governed by the party that has the highest number of seats.
  
  And please take extra care to explain why a communist one party system is not or can not be democratic!!
  I already did explain it, and it ends up being highly concentrated power, just like Marx prescribed. But here's a nice case in point to add:
  https://slashdot.org/comments....
  Also you might want to go read up on the Icarians in Navoo, Illinois. They really were communist by all definitions of the word, but over time as productivity dropped, strict work rules had to be enforced. The democratic process eventually broke down and there was a major split.
38. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-21 16:09 · Score: 1
  
  No, your previous comment is exactly what AC mentioned. The Soviet economy is actually state capitalism (mentioned above, deformed capitalism economy), which has the properties of capitalism system.
  I stated this very plainly in my first reply to you: What communism says it is, and then what it actually is, are two very different things. FFS the concept of being stateless is a required component of communism, and it's impossible to obtain. Really, they propose having no laws, no governing authority, and no borders. Many, many things are wrong with this. I've grilled communists on reddit about people who decide not to follow the communist model and go back to capitalism (they will inevitably exist) and how do they set norms on how much production is necessary to be fair, and all who saw my post eventually conceded that there will need to be people who set the standards and people who enforce them (laws and government, hence it can't be communist by definition.) Laws can't exist without jurisdiction either, otherwise you have no idea where those laws apply, hence you also need borders, which means you have a state. Civilization also can't exist without laws.
  And the soviet government WAS socialist as Marx described it. There is still money in socialism, and there are still wages. Profit was only introduced in 1965 (almost half a century after the revolution) when it became obvious that they couldn't compete with the US by having only 40% of our GDP per capita. More importantly, socialism is a planned economy that Marx intended to transform into a very unplanned communism using very vague reasoning.
  
  The case of China is to abandon the monopoly of the state with the economy and (it's important, it happened when China decided to against the Soviet) the Wests were lift off embargo against the country.
  No, that's not how China became capitalist or even state capitalist (they never really were this as the state never was profit oriented.) Capitalism was inadvertently introduced when a black market farm was producing so much grain compared to the neighboring areas, that it caught the attention of the Chinese government, and once they realized what was happening, they officially sanctioned it and allowed it to spread in order to solve famine, which it did quite well. But it began to spread so damn fast that it quickly replaced the rest of the planned economy, and so the whole country became capitalist within a period of 4 years. Not only did that solve famine, but it began a period of huge growth and prosperity.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... (this Wikipedia is sourced well on all points, so I'm just using it directly.)
39. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by ArmoredDragon · 2018-02-21 16:13 · Score: 1
  
  Marx was notorious for using 'obfuscated' words for exact translation, if not known what he was really meant and the context.
  Engels and Marx both spoke English, and they personally gave their stamp of approval on all of the translations by native speakers.
  
  As mentioned in my previous comment, Marx did not consider the "dictatorship" and "revolution" as the tool of "minority" to "take control" powers. The armed force revolution is the result of old "weaken" societies refuse to transform to new societies, despite the will of the mass (in this case, the proletarian class is a larger group).
  And according to his writing, democracies who refused to transform were included in this. (Also of note: He also predicted that communist parties would eventually win in a democracy. Sure, they won some elections, but that never lasted.) First, Marx commented that once communists were elected, then they would gradually gain more power over time. However after that failed in France in 1848 when the communists didn't actually get anywhere, he took a different turn and commented that "bourgeoisie democracy" would overthrow elected communists as kind of a cop-out. He had little faith that democracy would yield his stated goals, and over time started speaking out more that he felt violent revolution is necessary.
  
  In the manifesto (in your comment) above:
  You're highlighting the final step of it, which he says democracy will take foot, but only after the overthrow of the "old societies"
  
  And this,
  Which is a commentary that modern communists are revising to advertise to the others to join their cause. The communist party elected in Croatia actually did work with everybody at first until it turned out that they were about to be voted out because the working class didn't want to follow their rules (i.e. mandated increased output without extra pay.) They already had an intent of taking over the whole thing and they assumed that they would gain more power over time, but once they saw that people weren't accepting their views and they were going to lose all of their seats, they opted for violent revolution.
  Everybody who identifies as communist today is either a useful idiot who doesn't understand this, or they're in on it (most people have wisened up these days, so few communists remain.) Why is this commentary even necessary when worldsocialism.org can simply present the manifesto and Marx's writings and published articles?
  In fact, when the USSR gained prominence after WWII and started forcing other states to move to communism, communists everywhere (even in western states that rejected communism) declared that this was "late stage capitalism" in 1945, and they wholly supported what the USSR was doing. (1945 actually began a long era of prosperity and growth that continues to this day in capitalist states. And, it turns out that, late stage capitalism was declared 57 years after capitalism actually had a name, meanwhile we're 73 years after "late stage capitalism" and all of the worlds communist states have either already failed, or are still failing.
40. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-21 16:35 · Score: 1
  
  Marx works are on German. English sometimes is painful to express. But it's a minor point.
  You seems to refuse all the quotes I presents, which Marx's ideas when you refuse those are Marx's ideas.
  
  You're highlighting the final step of it, which he says democracy will take foot, but only after the overthrow of the "old societies"
  No, it's how societies work, as I mentioned, not just "communist", when the conflict reach the point of unreconcilable.
  
  Which is a commentary that modern communists are revising to advertise to the others to join their cause
  Modern?? this from 1930s article. Nah, all the articles I cited are from very beginning of communism establishment, which rejected USSR and co as communism. What's your point?
41. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by guestapoo · 2018-02-21 16:58 · Score: 1
  
  Oh, IF what is actually is different then it is NOT communism, period. How to achieve communism, and even more simple how to predict exactly a social conflict will happen is hard. And I repeat, there is no actual communism existed yet.
  Also, all your post about communism base on the Soviet system, which you insisted that it was, despite all the Marxists have been against that, all the original of Marx works are against that.
  
  No, that's not how China became capitalist or even state capitalist
  You seems to not understand what I said, China before reformed is like Soviet, is state capitalism, with state monopoly of economy, then after reformed, they are allow private economy. State capitalism is that the state owns, capitalizes the surplus income of workers, the bosses here is the state.
42. Re:The trouble with "hate speech" by angel'o'sphere · 2018-02-22 10:35 · Score: 1
  
  Cuba is not frozen in 1959, how do you come to that idea?
  The 'problems' Cuba has are because of the american embargos.
  Which 'democratic' government was overthrown by a 'communist' revolution?
  Could you quote some Marx or Engels that support your position, please?
  
  --
  Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Um by cascadingstylesheet · 2018-02-19 09:16 · Score: 3, Funny

Vietnam is a communist dictatorship. I hope Internet censorship doesn't come as some sort of surprise ...
1. Re:Um by DaMattster · 2018-02-19 10:26 · Score: 1
  
  Vietnam is a communist dictatorship. I hope Internet censorship doesn't come as some sort of surprise ...
  It's actually a communist oligarchy with a general secretary and ruling party.
2. Re: Um by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 16:27 · Score: 1
  
  Vietnam *is* big-C Communist. There are literally big red hammer and sickle banners hanging everywhere.
  However Vietnam is not a dictatorship. There is no paramount leader, no dictator. Rather it's more of a bureaucratic gerontocracy. It's a single-party state, but factions within the Party are tolerated and openly discussed.
  Vietnam is definitely weak on freedom of political speech. However it's also weak on surveillance and oppression. This is *not* a tyranny like Thailand. No one cares if you bad mouth the Party while talking with your friends. But if you actually tried to do political organizing, yes you'd probably get stomped.
No problem by hackingbear · 2018-02-19 09:24 · Score: 1

Vietnam is now our puppet friend in the fight against our biggest rival China. The US will just need to cover up its ears like it does for Saudi Arabia
1. Re:No problem by gtall · 2018-02-19 10:10 · Score: 1
  
  Well, the current Administration doesn't need to cover its ears, it cannot hear totalitarian victims very well.
2. Re: No problem by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 16:30 · Score: 2
  
  Yup, that long history with China is key. Half the major streets in Ho Chi Minh City are named after historical heroes who drove out Chinese invaders.
  Despite the war and all that bad history, Americans have one really big advantage in dealing with Vietnam. We are most definitely not Chinese.
"toxic information" by rogoshen1 · 2018-02-19 09:27 · Score: 2, Insightful

Jesus Christ. Having a well-educated, thoughtful, free, and open society is the remedy against "toxic information"
Anything else is censorship.
1. Re:"toxic information" by Anonymous Coward · 2018-02-19 09:55 · Score: 1
  
  Well just make sure not to vote Democrat or Republican and maybe we'll achieve that someday.
2. Re:"toxic information" by DNS-and-BIND · 2018-02-19 11:15 · Score: 1
  
  It's to prevent toxic bullshit like this from spreading through society and causing damage. This is Vietnam, remember. They have no tradition of the extreme version of free speech in the First Amendment. In fact, to most of the world it looks weird and wrong. Vietnam doesn't have a Nazi problem, for example.
  
  --
  Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
3. Re:"toxic information" by autlycus · 2018-02-20 04:22 · Score: 1
  
  The people who should be surprised are the ones living in so-called 'free' nations where we try to censor hate speech.
Soros by Tailhook · 2018-02-19 09:33 · Score: 1, Insightful

The ruling class want FacebookGoogleTwitterEtc regulated to stop "populism." Here is Soros using fear to justify putting government minders in control, complete with scary images of eyeballs controlled by corporations and warnings of a Trump dictatorship.
Everywhere you look leftists and statists are using fear to put themselves in control of the Internet.

--
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
1. Re:Soros by phantomfive · 2018-02-19 14:39 · Score: 1
  
  Note: "the Left" only wants to stop populism when it's against them. Just like "the Right"
  
  --
  "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
2. Re:Soros by Anonymous Coward · 2018-02-19 19:20 · Score: 1
  
  ... images of eyeballs controlled by corporations ...
  
  Soros is making the prescient point that Facebook/Google/Twitter are monopolies of information and users. In case you didn't know, monopolies are a problem and a worse problem because US law has few objections against monopolies.
  
  ... warnings of a Trump dictatorship.
  He said the opposite, namely, "the constitution, other institutions, and a vibrant civil society won’t allow it". Trump is acting a lot like Bush junior, who received mush less lamentation and fear. Speaking of which, the one fear-mongering here, is you.
Why not? by Trailer+Trash · 2018-02-19 10:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yet the fight against either "fake news" or misinformation in Vietnam must not be used as a smoke screen for stifling dissenting opinions and curtailing freedom of speech.
That's what the fight against "fake news" and "misinformation" is used for everywhere else.

--
Do you have ESP?
Re:Not REAL communism... by Order_66 · 2018-02-19 10:46 · Score: 1, Informative

I've lived there, it is real communism, it's just not nearly as bad as some other countries.
Re: Nonsense! by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 15:57 · Score: 1

Nice wallotext!
Re: haha by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 16:36 · Score: 1

If you'd seen a few Agent Orange victims, you'd realize how very unfunny your joke was.
Re: Nonsense! by Hal_Porter · 2018-02-19 17:48 · Score: 2

Who is Reverend Green? He's a character I created to explore some experimental political viewpoints. He's religious, unambiguously communist, socially conservative, and perhaps outspoken. Yet I hope his words are sometimes not far from the truth. Brothers and sisters - look around you, open your eyes, write your own narrative. || FWIW, I have a low-UID /. account in my real name. I used to post regularly. Yet the chilling effect of the current social climate in America is such that I am no longer feel comfortable posting political thoughts under my own name.
I'm not sure why you're criticising me for going off on a tangent from the Vietnamese Communist Party to their enablers in the West given that Hal_Porter is also a character I created to explore 'experimental political views' without getting the real me blacklisted for criticising the left and explaining their opponents when I feel they're being unfairly criticised.

--
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Re: Nonsense! by Reverend+Green · 2018-02-19 18:06 · Score: 1

Actually I'm just (lightly!) criticizing the *length* of your post. A wallotext is kinda unpleasant to read on mobile.
Re: Nonsense! by Hal_Porter · 2018-02-19 18:58 · Score: 1

It's bold in terms of jerking people around but, uh, I may have gone too far in places

--
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Normalizing Censorship? by autlycus · 2018-02-20 04:20 · Score: 1

I find it amusing that the excerpt tries to normalize censorship in places like Germany, while condemning such acts in Vietnam. Censorship is the same, whether it's against hate speech or otherwise.
Re:Not REAL communism... by erapert · 2018-02-20 04:35 · Score: 1

Clearly I should have used a tag.
Re: Nonsense! by slashdotwannabe · 2018-02-22 08:34 · Score: 1

Lol an AC that shitposts and then answers themselves. Don't you have a post to write on Vietnamese Facebook, Vladimir?

--
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for