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Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada (bloomberg.com)
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via Bloomberg: The H-1B was created in 1990, part of an immigration overhaul signed into law by President George H.W. Bush that also created the EB-5 investor visa -- the subject of a fracas involving Kushner Cos. seeking Chinese investment -- and the diversity lottery, which Trump has attacked. Today, an estimated half a million H-1B holders live in the U.S. No one tracks exactly how many ditch their skilled visas for the permanent residency Canada offers, but during the first year of Trump's presidency, the number of tech professionals globally who got permanent residency in Canada ticked up almost 40 percent from 2016, to more than 11,000.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
I've read multiple times that the H1-B program allows 85,000 applicants a year, but I've also read the half a million figure. Are they just not going home when their Visas are up? Are the Visas being issued for decades at a time so that they build up in the system? Or are they saying that most H1-B Visas are converted to permanent residency?
One thing I can say: Companies stopped training once they could rely on the H1-B visa program. One more thing, I know two or three people who were laid off and replaced by H1-Bs, which is supposed to be illegal.
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I used to work with Indians from Bangalore at HP. They were working in India and then came to Boise for a week or two. I can't say I remember a single slight directed to them. Most development environments are populated almost exclusively by SJW progressives. How do you define 'rampant racism'.
'I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes, when it takes a man's life.' ~ Four Leaf Tayback
Isn't Canada also in America?
The article is mostly about foreigners who can no longer get a permit to work in USA and have to "settle" for Canada. American and Canadian engineers can work on TN Visas which are much easier to obtain without number restrictions. I'm sure Canadian engineers heading down South for better pay and more opportunities still far outnumber American engineers moving North regardless of current Political situation.
My company does power and HVAC systems engineering for buildings. There is and has been a significant shortage of people in this field over the years (it has always paid less than high-tech and finance, and to really succeed you need the same personality and skill sets). You can't just increase pay, because the fees you can receive do not support paying someone straight out of college $85k/year, plus dedicating significant resources to training. It becomes a 2-5 year investment (more on the HVAC side).
I had always been biased against the international masters students, as I generally found that they lacked some of the creativity that is required in our field. I have since been proven wrong, with two great hires recently.
Unfortunately, unless they can have their PE and be paid $91k after 12 months now, they will not be eligible for an H1B. General wages start at $55-65k first year, $60-70k second year, and $68-85k third year. So, they will leave...
This isn't smart policy. I understand the need to prevent companies like us using H1Bs to have someone work for $55,58,62...k and deprive good jobs for citizens, but keeping bright *young* people is a huge benefit. Instead, we hire and train people apuntil their F1(?) education expires, and they go home for a better job.
Everyone is looking to move up to do the best for their family. Indians to America. Syrians to Europe. Americas to Canada. Americans to Europe. The people first to move are the well educated with the capital to make such a move.
I have my MS and my wife has her MD. As a whole we've debated what countries would be best for our kids and their kids. Universal health care, fewer school shoots, treating mental health like a mental and not judicial problem and a host of other differences. Yeah, it reflects our politics. But it's pretty apparent the US isn't going to be what we want for our grand kids and their grand kids.
And you can save your breath, yelling at people on Facebook hasn't done anything either. I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion, I want to live with people, like those in Canada or the Nordic states that share my opinion.
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world
Singapore is a low-tax authoritarian country which spends little on social programs, spends robustly on their military, executes drug dealers, and they even spank petty criminals.
Not just that, the immigrant engineers are leaving for Canada after the Trump administration decides that they want to adapt the same points based/merit based immigration system. If that's such a horrible concept, why are they leaving for a country that has exactly that?
Also, in the above blurb on Canada, it also states that people have to know either English or French. That's very different from the immigration problem in the US, where people who speak only Spanish come in, w/ no intention of ever learning English
Let's face it: whatever technology lead the US used to have, it's gone, or about to in the coming years / decades. Just reading tech news regularly yields a # of reasons:
* Housing prices in the Silicon Valley area. ;-).
* Anti-immigration views displayed by the current US president (and quite a few of his followers).
* The crazy Republicans vs. Democrats political situation.
* Intellectual property hassles combined with a lawsuit-happy culture (with expensive lawyers as the cherry on top
* Investments in fundamental R&D slipping (vs. other countries gearing up).
* Silicon Valley itself turning from a brand-new-tech 'heaven' to a create-value-for-shareholders focus.
* Other countries reaching a stage of development such that there are many tech centres to choose from (see eg. AI talent gathering in China).
Just to name a few. Not saying the above is good or bad in itself... But if I were about to run a tech startup, rather than Silicon Valley I'd be looking to move to Hong Kong / Shenzhen area. Or even some lesser known place in say, Eastern Europe or South America, provided enough talent in the field & facilities / suppliers were already there.
Get used to it, US! High tech is spreading around the world. :-)) Your days as top dog are numbered.
And in other news, California is experiencing an exodus. And it's mostly the middle class that's fleeing progressive California.
As a Canadian who lived in the US for ~4 years before returning to canada.. Running back for health care would be hard. after 183 days outside the country they cancel it on you.
"All provinces, except Ontario and Newfoundland, require you to actually live in your home province for at least six months plus a day (183 days in most years) in order to be considered a permanent resident of that province, and therefore qualified for provincial health insurance (medicare) benefits. That means actually residing in your home province and being able to prove it, if necessary, not simply owning a residence there and living in Portugal, Mexico or California for eight or nine months."
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system.
So fifty years after Canada implements a merit-based (AKA points-based) immigration policy America-hating Americans attack President Trump and his administration as being anti-immigrant by proposing a similar immigration program. (Apparently the only good immigration program is one that increases the absolute number of immigrants admitted into the country annually...)
Ken
In both Canasta and the US, people who are qualified are unemployed while I can't find qualified candidates.
If only corporations were more open to remote workers versus insisting that people be sitting in the head office between 9am-5pm. That is the main problem I'm currently facing, trying to find work in my relatively small city. Lots of work...as long as I'm willing to move to one of the large cities where the cost-of-living is so high I cannot afford a decent house, much less a nice place to raise my children.
The whole USA was a hostile invasion to begin with.
Canada has a more attractive system because there is a better path to citizenship and family reunion.
Some people (not just in the US, in the UK too) seem to think that they can just get people in for a few years and then send them home. Good people won't come on those terms.
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SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
> they chose a country that is more difficult to enter legally than the US
Canada has a population of 30 million and brings in 300,000 a year, so that's 1%
The US has a population of 325 million and brings in 1.5 million a year, so that's 0.5%
So Canada is twice as easy to get into, legally.
correction: They want the best cheap engineers
I know someone in Africa who worked until he could afford a juice cart. Finally he started to make a living for his family. That lasted a few months and warlords came and shot up his town. Possessions were taken, along with his juice cart. This is the world libertarians will have us in. Giving absolute power to people with no legal structure for which to obtain that power in is an absolute disaster every time. Worse than capitalism.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I've worked with good people in India, but large companies aren't getting those people at 1/10 the pay. Those people in my experience are really just capable of following direct orders so they need someone to direct things. I've been told it's because people with 'skills' quickly want to become part of management because of social status but I don't know how true this is.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.