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Engineers Are Leaving America For Canada (bloomberg.com)
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report via Bloomberg: The H-1B was created in 1990, part of an immigration overhaul signed into law by President George H.W. Bush that also created the EB-5 investor visa -- the subject of a fracas involving Kushner Cos. seeking Chinese investment -- and the diversity lottery, which Trump has attacked. Today, an estimated half a million H-1B holders live in the U.S. No one tracks exactly how many ditch their skilled visas for the permanent residency Canada offers, but during the first year of Trump's presidency, the number of tech professionals globally who got permanent residency in Canada ticked up almost 40 percent from 2016, to more than 11,000.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system. The country regularly tweaks how it rates applicants based on national goals and research into what makes for successful integration: A job offer used to come with 600 points, but now it's worth just 200. Other factors like speaking fluent English or French -- or, even better, both -- have been given more weight over the years. Country of origin is irrelevant. In 2016, Canada increased national immigration levels to 300,000 new permanent residents annually. Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
I've read multiple times that the H1-B program allows 85,000 applicants a year, but I've also read the half a million figure. Are they just not going home when their Visas are up? Are the Visas being issued for decades at a time so that they build up in the system? Or are they saying that most H1-B Visas are converted to permanent residency?
One thing I can say: Companies stopped training once they could rely on the H1-B visa program. One more thing, I know two or three people who were laid off and replaced by H1-Bs, which is supposed to be illegal.
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I used to work with Indians from Bangalore at HP. They were working in India and then came to Boise for a week or two. I can't say I remember a single slight directed to them. Most development environments are populated almost exclusively by SJW progressives. How do you define 'rampant racism'.
'I don't know what it's called. I just know the sound it makes, when it takes a man's life.' ~ Four Leaf Tayback
Isn't Canada also in America?
Yeah because the Indian takover at places like microsoft doesn't have its own pro Indian racism.
Hypocrite
The article is mostly about foreigners who can no longer get a permit to work in USA and have to "settle" for Canada. American and Canadian engineers can work on TN Visas which are much easier to obtain without number restrictions. I'm sure Canadian engineers heading down South for better pay and more opportunities still far outnumber American engineers moving North regardless of current Political situation.
My company does power and HVAC systems engineering for buildings. There is and has been a significant shortage of people in this field over the years (it has always paid less than high-tech and finance, and to really succeed you need the same personality and skill sets). You can't just increase pay, because the fees you can receive do not support paying someone straight out of college $85k/year, plus dedicating significant resources to training. It becomes a 2-5 year investment (more on the HVAC side).
I had always been biased against the international masters students, as I generally found that they lacked some of the creativity that is required in our field. I have since been proven wrong, with two great hires recently.
Unfortunately, unless they can have their PE and be paid $91k after 12 months now, they will not be eligible for an H1B. General wages start at $55-65k first year, $60-70k second year, and $68-85k third year. So, they will leave...
This isn't smart policy. I understand the need to prevent companies like us using H1Bs to have someone work for $55,58,62...k and deprive good jobs for citizens, but keeping bright *young* people is a huge benefit. Instead, we hire and train people apuntil their F1(?) education expires, and they go home for a better job.
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world even with the Dems in control.
In the UK where I'm from we got a massive increase in Left Wing university professors when Trump got elected so I wouldn't be surprised.
Everyone is looking to move up to do the best for their family. Indians to America. Syrians to Europe. Americas to Canada. Americans to Europe. The people first to move are the well educated with the capital to make such a move.
I have my MS and my wife has her MD. As a whole we've debated what countries would be best for our kids and their kids. Universal health care, fewer school shoots, treating mental health like a mental and not judicial problem and a host of other differences. Yeah, it reflects our politics. But it's pretty apparent the US isn't going to be what we want for our grand kids and their grand kids.
And you can save your breath, yelling at people on Facebook hasn't done anything either. I respect your opinion and your right to have your opinion, I want to live with people, like those in Canada or the Nordic states that share my opinion.
No one wants the best Indian engineers. They want the best engineers. Skin != skill. But it's 2018, that attitude of not judging based on skin color or race is now somehow racist.
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world
Singapore is a low-tax authoritarian country which spends little on social programs, spends robustly on their military, executes drug dealers, and they even spank petty criminals.
Also the anti-female and anti-black racism. As a old pink guy in Canada, it's way easier to have a life in Canada than the United States, because you don't have to hate folks who look suspiciously like you.
davecb@spamcop.net
So why did a Canadian engineer recently start at my US-based company? When I asked him about it he said that he was having too much trouble finding work in Canada lately.
Bad HR problems. In both Canasta and the US, people who are qualified are unemployed while I can't find qualified candidates.
davecb@spamcop.net
Not just that, the immigrant engineers are leaving for Canada after the Trump administration decides that they want to adapt the same points based/merit based immigration system. If that's such a horrible concept, why are they leaving for a country that has exactly that?
Also, in the above blurb on Canada, it also states that people have to know either English or French. That's very different from the immigration problem in the US, where people who speak only Spanish come in, w/ no intention of ever learning English
Farming too hard in the colonies? Trap a bunch of Africans and bring them over as slaves. . . . Now H1Bs. It's all the same thing.
Yes, when I think about H1Bs coming to the U.S. and getting paid far better than they ever would in their home countries, the immediate parallel that springs to mind is plantations, whips and chains. Ah Maslow, we hardly knew ye.
And chewing gum is illegal there.
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Be prepared to go bankrupt if you get seriously ill.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
You do know that the US has no official national language, and that Spanish is co-official with English in at least one US state, don't you?
Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
Oh yes, silly me. You'd just come running back to Canada if it came to that.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Let's face it: whatever technology lead the US used to have, it's gone, or about to in the coming years / decades. Just reading tech news regularly yields a # of reasons:
* Housing prices in the Silicon Valley area. ;-).
* Anti-immigration views displayed by the current US president (and quite a few of his followers).
* The crazy Republicans vs. Democrats political situation.
* Intellectual property hassles combined with a lawsuit-happy culture (with expensive lawyers as the cherry on top
* Investments in fundamental R&D slipping (vs. other countries gearing up).
* Silicon Valley itself turning from a brand-new-tech 'heaven' to a create-value-for-shareholders focus.
* Other countries reaching a stage of development such that there are many tech centres to choose from (see eg. AI talent gathering in China).
Just to name a few. Not saying the above is good or bad in itself... But if I were about to run a tech startup, rather than Silicon Valley I'd be looking to move to Hong Kong / Shenzhen area. Or even some lesser known place in say, Eastern Europe or South America, provided enough talent in the field & facilities / suppliers were already there.
Get used to it, US! High tech is spreading around the world. :-)) Your days as top dog are numbered.
I voted--no joke--for CowboyNeal in the last election. I saw evil any which way I looked at it.
But what is up with all of this Trump bashing by the editors? Make no mistake: H-1B visas are abused by tech companies to keep salaries down. Persons from overseas are no more capable than citizens to fill positions. When I joined the workforce, there was this thing called "training" that has been since brushed under the rug by the man to keep the common person down.
Seriously, this is America's original sin. Farming too hard in the colonies? Trap a bunch of Africans and bring them over as slaves.
Not quite.
Africans enslaved and sold other Africans.
The Portuguese, Spanish, French and English bought those slaves then stuffed them in boats and sent them to work in their colonies (the ones that survived, anyway).
When the US was founded as an independent nation, slavery became a hot topic not because the north thought it was bad and the south was racist, but because the governing structure of the country involved indirect representation of people, and slaves were people. Well, three fifths of a person each, after haggling with the north who thought they should be zero fifths of a person.
The 3/5s compromise was fine enough until the south saw their economic and legal power was being stripped away as population and industry in the north grew and as the north kept adding states. Westward expansion saw continual fights over whether new territory / states should have slavery or not. The industrial revolution wasn't exactly kind to plantations.
The north wanted to abolish slavery and send slaves back to Africa, or at least to end the slave trade and grant protection and state citizenship to any slaves who made it north to a free state. The south, of course, wanted to keep their slaves, have them count for representation, keep the slave trade and keep expanding westward with new slave states.
Eventually, we had a civil war over the issue. The north (union) won - barely. But let's not pretend they were fighting for noble reasons. The fight over slavery was about money and power for most people of the time, not what was morally right. Even Lincoln didn't start with the Emancipation Proclamation. He was fine keeping the status quo. So much so that we engaged in the bloodiest war in US history (true to this day) when another option was available - just let the south secede.
I find it odd that people love to point to the US as being the poster boy for racism, slavery, etc. The US was not alone in that shit, and in fact inherited that shit from their British masters.
And in other news, California is experiencing an exodus. And it's mostly the middle class that's fleeing progressive California.
As a Canadian who lived in the US for ~4 years before returning to canada.. Running back for health care would be hard. after 183 days outside the country they cancel it on you.
"All provinces, except Ontario and Newfoundland, require you to actually live in your home province for at least six months plus a day (183 days in most years) in order to be considered a permanent resident of that province, and therefore qualified for provincial health insurance (medicare) benefits. That means actually residing in your home province and being able to prove it, if necessary, not simply owning a residence there and living in Portugal, Mexico or California for eight or nine months."
Shanghai Bill above mentioned Singapore, and if one knows Spanish, Chile is good as well
We knew that engineers would leave. The question is whether the jobs are leaving with them. I don't think I see that trend.
Read the Vancouver property market situation. Some people have been buying visas from Montreal, moving to Vancouver and speculating on apartment and home prices. At the same time, salaries have been falling.
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You can only have a functional society when everyone is able to communicate. Democracy only works when people can debate and ideas can compete. Asking that those that want to live here speak the language is not being mean or divisive. It's asking that they integrate with society and become part of it. It's actually inclusive in that it wants those people to be integral.
As for the part about the immigration rules.... Well, when a country that is currently led by a Progressive says it, it must be good. When Trump says the same thing, it must be bad. People have their heads so far up their rears, they don't look at the idea, they look at the messenger. Those that say they're educated and smart, are nothing more than sheep who don't pay attention to the actual issues.
Maybe slightly lower income tax, but wait until they see what ordinance violations exist, and what the payments are, as well as how often they are cited. Also, no guns.
"Singapore has one of the toughest gun control laws in the world. According to the Arms Offences Act, unlawful possession or carrying of firearms is punishable with imprisonment and caning. Using or attempting to use arms when committing a scheduled offense is punishable with death. The death penalty may also apply to the offender’s accomplices present at the scene of the offense."
why doesn't your company invest in training? Maybe lobby for more vocational schools and better funding for public universities. Most of what I'm seeing from companies is lobbying for lower taxes which in turn means fewer educational services. If you want good workers, pay for them.
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I started making a playlist of it that repeats it several times, but I'm having trouble being in the same room while it is playing.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
Singapore has one of the best housing program in the world. Citizens pay a fair amount to buy an apartment from the government, and they are well build and good size. Rich peoples, pay dearly to buy house/apartment from private builder. Those are bigger, in the best area, and extras.
US government is really shitty, but I am not sure if it is this way by choice or by chance. The same go for many western countries' government, including shitty Canada (I was a Canadian citizen).
In 1967, Canada became the first country to adopt a points-based immigration system.
So fifty years after Canada implements a merit-based (AKA points-based) immigration policy America-hating Americans attack President Trump and his administration as being anti-immigrant by proposing a similar immigration program. (Apparently the only good immigration program is one that increases the absolute number of immigrants admitted into the country annually...)
Ken
Be prepared to go bankrupt if you get seriously ill.
As a well-paid senior (20 yrs experience) software engineer he likely has health insurance coverage from his employer, and as such will likely NOT go broke if he gets "seriously ill,"
Ken
In both Canasta and the US, people who are qualified are unemployed while I can't find qualified candidates.
If only corporations were more open to remote workers versus insisting that people be sitting in the head office between 9am-5pm. That is the main problem I'm currently facing, trying to find work in my relatively small city. Lots of work...as long as I'm willing to move to one of the large cities where the cost-of-living is so high I cannot afford a decent house, much less a nice place to raise my children.
Last year, in consultation with trade groups, it created a program called the Global Skills Strategy to issue temporary work permits to people with job offers in certain categories, including senior software engineers, in as little as two weeks. Since the program started in June, more than 5,600 people have been granted permits, from the U.S., India, Pakistan, Brazil, and elsewhere.
So Canada has implemented their own version of the H1-B Visa program and took in 5,600 highly-skilled professionals and gave them temporary work permits... Big Deal.
Ken
Canada is in America, right?
Big fucking deal. Drive around south side Buffalo, NY, and you'd think you were in County Clare, Ireland. What about Little Italy in NYC? No one complains about those "hostile invasions."
At least there's that.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Remote-friendly places do exist, TELUS is one decent-sized example. It's a hell of a lot easier if it's part of the company culture.
Have you been paying attention to the politics out of Toronto(Ontario) and federally by the Liberal Party the last few years? The anti-white racism being pushed by both parties, is part and parcel the same being pushed by progressives in the US. Look at it this way, the policies of the Ontario Liberal Party and their actions have likely just killed their party. The Progressive Conservatives have moved into a likely super-majority status in the legislature with an estimated 85-98 seats. The NDP manage to hold on and maintain party status with 8 or more seats and gain official opposition status. The liberals hold 7 or less seats. 8 are required to be considered an official party and receive any government funding.
What's being played out is no different the the collapse of the Progressive Conservatives federally in the early 90's.
Om, nomnomnom...
The whole USA was a hostile invasion to begin with.
Canada has a more attractive system because there is a better path to citizenship and family reunion.
Some people (not just in the US, in the UK too) seem to think that they can just get people in for a few years and then send them home. Good people won't come on those terms.
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SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world even with the Dems in control.
If you are on the libertarian part of the spectrum you could go somewhere with less government.
There are a couple of places in the world where the government have no control over the population and the land is ruled by communities formed by people.
It would be the right wing dream if it weren't for those places being in Africa and those people having to form their own militias and fight against other communities and live their lives as a part of a military unit, plundering everything and killing civilians just to survive themselves.
You know, the way everyone else knows will happen if libertarians got their way.
I was in Southern California. Trust me. That area has an official language. And it's Spanish.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
If the money is good enough, I'll come. But that's the other problem, the main reason these countries want to import foreign labour is that they want to import cheap labour...
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
> When I asked him about it he said that he was having too much trouble finding work in Canada lately.
Well I can't speak for "that guy", but unemployment in Canada is on its historical low:
http://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/canadas-unemployment-rate-declines-to-lowest-in-four-decades
Note that we count our rate differently than in the US, and there's about a 1% difference if we count using the US methods. So this corresponds to something around 4.7% compared to the current US rate of 4.1%
Wait, you don't work for Ford do you?
> they chose a country that is more difficult to enter legally than the US
Canada has a population of 30 million and brings in 300,000 a year, so that's 1%
The US has a population of 325 million and brings in 1.5 million a year, so that's 0.5%
So Canada is twice as easy to get into, legally.
Happens everywhere, thanks for the story. Here's another story.. Wife had cancer twice; both treated successfully and we get to have a life after.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Not that long, the UK's Slavery Abolition Act was in 1833, which supersedes the 1807 law. France was 1976 IIRC. So around 50 to 60 years, which isn't that long in the grand scheme of things.
If you can do the job from home, so can a better qualified worker in India getting 1/10 the pay.
health insurance with no lifetime cap? Does that exist?
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
correction: They want the best cheap engineers
...they even spank petty criminals.
At first glance I thought you typed "spank pretty criminals".
I know someone in Africa who worked until he could afford a juice cart. Finally he started to make a living for his family. That lasted a few months and warlords came and shot up his town. Possessions were taken, along with his juice cart. This is the world libertarians will have us in. Giving absolute power to people with no legal structure for which to obtain that power in is an absolute disaster every time. Worse than capitalism.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Oops.. meant 'worse than communism'.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
I've worked with good people in India, but large companies aren't getting those people at 1/10 the pay. Those people in my experience are really just capable of following direct orders so they need someone to direct things. I've been told it's because people with 'skills' quickly want to become part of management because of social status but I don't know how true this is.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
Engineers are the only talent the USA has to trade for decent NHL players.
The incentive is better beer for the engineers and sex without snow shoes for the hockey stars.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
Australia and NZ also have similar systems, but progressives in the US claim that it's racist for Trump wanting to have it as you pointed out.
Because why you do something is often as important as what you want: it's called intent. And it's the difference between (e.g.) murder and manslaughter. Or, to a lesser degree: accidentally elbowing someone in the face from wildly gesticulating while telling a story, and walking over to someone and popping them one.
"I want immigrants with a different set of skills" and "I want to keep the brown people out" are both reasons to change and an immigration: can you tell the difference between the two?
The 2 party system we have is an artifact of a first past the post election system. The only way a different party is ever going to be more than a spoiler in national elections is to start at the state level and build up a party that takes over for one of the existing parties. Until then a vote for a 3rd party candidate for President is just a wasted vote. You'd be better off voting against the major party candidate you'd least like to see in the office.
You know what'd be awesome? If you learned the difference between libertarianism and anarchy. What you just described was anarchy.
I remeber when i lived in the US there was a big sign by the highway "Day labor pickup".. Not some cardboard sign, but an actual metal sign like the government pots, complete with a nice waiting area for all the illigial workers..
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The idea of Merit-based immigration has a rather interesting history here in the US:
https://www.theatlantic.com/bu...
tl;dr is that in the early 1960's, civil-rights proponents (from the progressive faction of the Democratic party) were once the champions of a merit-based immigration system. Opponents (mostly the southern Democratic party faction) championed the blood-tie / family-reuinification system, assuming that since the USA demography was at that time overwhelmingly white and of Western and Northern European descent, a blood-tie based system would serve to preserve the status quo. What they did not anticipate was the collapse in Western/Northern European emigration, as their birth-rates fell and their economies improved.
Not really covered in the article above, is that afterwards the Southern Democrats would flip to the Republican party during the "Southern Strategy" shift, resulting in a scrambling of ideological alignments of both the Democrats and the Republicans that contributed to the modern day mess.
No, what I just described is a society with a complete lack of government regulation.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
You missed the part where Canada doesn't limit the country but you have Trump pushing laws to exclude certain countries, not even all the real bad ones. That's the xenophobic part you missed. (I believe there's also limits per country/region in US immigration as well).
Why the fuck are you asking the Internet why two Americans work for you? We're not fucking mind readers and you didn't imply anything obvious. Your post is meaningless unless you can tell us why.
Two words, "Lower Mainland".
If you can't understand all the Trump bashing then you are likely a Russian troll.
Once the merging of Canada and the United States is complete, who cares? Instead of 50 it'll be 65 states. When California breaks up, it'll be 69.
Where would they go, the US is the most right wing capitalist country in the world
Singapore is a low-tax authoritarian country which spends little on social programs, spends robustly on their military, executes drug dealers, and they even spank petty criminals.
They also tax alcohol and tobacco heavily, chewing gum is banned and prostitution is legal... Not really paradise for the ultra-right wing religious redneck.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Diploma of immigrants are not recognized by Canada. It's silly because immigrant application scores are boosted because they have bac/master/phd/whatever but once in the country, they have to go back to universities!
It's not uncommon in Canada to see doctors (yes, MD) or various degree engineers, driving taxi.
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
You say that as though libertarianism were a stable form of government.
I'm in Canada. A few years ago, I was looking for good QA testers. We were paying low 40k's a year for local people with college degrees. I get a call from one of these job placement type companies in the area. He's going on about how much cheaper to have a team in India to help productivity and what not. They had 4 weeks vacation and 10 days of paid training a year factored in (we start with two weeks vacation). I started off thinking I was going to get people for 12k-25k per year per person. The cost per person was $60k a year. I never talked to the company again.
But those that can't afford to live in Singapore have to commute from Malaysia via the Johor-Singapore causeway. No different from the various bridges that connect San Francisco to Marin county or Oakland.
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