Surface Phone Speculation Spurred By New Phone APIs In Windows (arstechnica.com)

Microsoft has been rumored to be working on a "Surface Phone" for years now, with little concrete evidence that such a device actually exists. "But the latest Windows 10 Insider Preview has given new fuel for the speculative fire, it has a set of new APIs for cellular phones," reports Ars Technica. From the report: Windows has had integrated support for cell modems since Windows 8, but this has been restricted to supporting data connections. Telephony -- dialing numbers, placing calls -- has always required either Windows Phone or Windows 10 Mobile. This has made the full Windows 10 unsuitable for a phone. That may be changing. Windows 10 build 17650 -- a preview of Redstone 5, the next Windows update after the delayed April update -- includes some telephony APIs. The new APIs cover support for a range of typical phone features: dialing numbers and contacts, blocking withheld numbers, support for Bluetooth headsets and spearphone mode, and so on and so forth. There also looks to be some kind of video-calling support, suggesting support for 3G or LTE video calling.

Comments

Interesting timing

[ArhcAngel]

Normally I would just laugh and make a snarky comment about the 200 or so attempts Microsoft has tried to get into the mobile phone market but given Google's headlong march into Microsoft's Embrace, Extend, Extinguish territory there are a growing number of people looking for alternatives. Of course this is Microsoft so we'll see if they can stay focused long enough to build an ecosystem.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, please don't, MS.

My employer seems to have a sweet spot for MS products despite the fact, none of our core business is on Windows. I had to suffer through the last iteration of Windows Mobile and it was a truly shitty experience. Apart from the pre-installed shit, like facebook and MS something something cloud storage including all the bells and whistles, modern day equivalents of going through your trash cans can offer, the interface was obnoxious and it wouldn't go 2 days without crashing. The on-board navigation software didn't find half the places i needed to go to and the reception was abysmal in slightly out-of-range situations where my private phones with the same provider would handle data and voice just fine.

The reason MS failed in the mobile sector was, because their OS and handsets were crap, apart from their battery life when idle. The ecosystem had nothing to do with it - the phones were failing at basic requirements.

There's no reason to root for MS here; they only want to get into the data gathering business like the other companies, that successfully spy on us

Re: Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

They're already in the data gathering business with windows 10, that's why they don't let you turn off their integrated spyware.

Re: Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

I was hoping to see you mention the planned undergoing at the Build conference, but your crazy conspiracy theory was also entertaining.

Re:Interesting timing

[ArmoredDragon]

The only reason they even made it as far as they did was because Nokia.

Nokia already had a strong following, so Microsoft bribed them to adopt their piece of shit for $1 billion. Microsoft rode on the popularity of that brand, which consequently gave it better sales in Europe. Then their shit platform dragged Nokia's name in the mud, so people stopped buying them. Even when they did buy them, the return rate was so high that even Amazon suspended its sales a few times.

Even Bill Gates was quick to switch to Android at the end.

Re:Interesting timing

[TheRaven64]

I disagree. My partner had a Nokia Windows Phone and reluctantly gave it up for an Android phone a few months back when it became so old that the TLS stack wouldn't connect to modern servers. She liked both the hardware and the software and still finds Android clunky in comparison. She'd still be using it today if Microsoft had managed to persuade third-party developers to invest in the platform. The one thing that she does like about Android is that when she sees a company telling her that they have an app, they actually do for her phone now.

If you could run Android apps on a Windows phone, I'd probably have got one as well - it's the only mobile UI I've used that hasn't annoyed me (I have an Android phone and an iPad).

Re:Interesting timing

[thegarbz]

I disagree.

An anecdote does not data make. I know a few people who liked Windows phones, but it is undeniable that they were widely hated, sales were suspended due to return rates, and that it killed Nokia.

Re: Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude.... Nokia was effectively dead before Microsoft bought them...

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

I had those issues with a Windows Phone from HTC. However, my Nokia Windows Phone did not have those issues.

My Nokia phone generally had better reception than my iPhone as well. Given the rest of the vitriol in your post, I would wager a guess that you hated the phone regardless of the phone. Frankly, the UX of any ecosystem is simply not for some people, whether it be WebOS, iOS, Android, or Windows Mobile.

Nokia, particularly with the Windows Phone 8 lineup, made great Windows Phones that worked in conditions that other phones did not work in my experience. The ecosystem was simply not there, but all basic requirements were easily met (especially given that Nokia HERE was great and offered offline maps). Still, with as much of a fan as I was -- and I was a fanboy -- it would take a lot to pull me back into a Windows Mobile ecosystem. Microsoft has a proven track record of botching Windows Mobile, and consistently rebooting it (in usably backward compatible ways, but not consistently forward compatible ways), so I am curious how they plan to convince normal users, let alone their original fanboys, to buy into yet another attempt.

The Microsoft app store, and thus ecosystem, is still a lot further behind their competition in terms of the number of useful apps and most of the apps on Windows are inferior to those on iOS (or even the Mac), but they tend to be close to the Android equivalent. This is not a technology or framework issue, rather it is simply a measure of support or interest. Companies do not feel that the investment is worthwhile, thus they farm it out to their C-teams (if that), and this includes Microsoft for some of their own more lightly used apps.

they only want to get into the data gathering business like the other companies, that successfully spy on us

Microsoft has Windows 10's telemetry with or without Windows Mobile and whatever sliver of search usage goes to Bing. They don't really need phones to get more information about us except the juicy location data, but laptops on WiFi can gather enough of that anyway.

That said, I personally trust Apple and Microsoft with my privacy a lot more than I trust Facebook and Google. Neither of their core businesses depend on my telemetry data, which neither Facebook nor Google can say.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

Then here are a few more. I never meet any one who did not love their Windows Phone... all half dozen or so. I actually supported 3 windows phone users and can see where they were coming from. There are really old yet responsive functional windows phones still out there. I can't get 2 1/2 years from an Android before it runs so poorly I want to smash it to bits.

In reality the interface was more modern than Android or iOS. If you hand all 3 phones to someone who never used a smart phone before and asked which was the newest most would say that the Windows phone was the most modern.

If Microsoft was able to crack that lack of apps issue there would still be a market. The OS was not bad.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

> so Microsoft bribed them to adopt their piece of shit for $1 billion

That was $1 billion _per_year_.

and Nokia still could not make a profit trying to sell WP phones because it had to sell them below cost to get anyone to buy them.

Re: Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

> Dude.... Nokia was effectively dead before Microsoft bought them...

Before they bought them, yes. But Nokia were doing well with increasing sales of Symbian Bella before Microsoft bribed them into switching to Windows Phone. The new N9 and N900 were well received and outsold WP in countries where MS allowed them to be sold. MS forced Nokia to kill Symbian, Asha, Maemo/Meego, Nokia-X (Android) and Meltemi. Microsoft killed Windows Phone by incompetence: with WP7 it provided zero compatibility to WM6.x and then WP8 deadended WP7 in both hardware and software. These moves ensured that developers didn't bother with WP so there were few apps. Some developers were paid by MS to convert apps to WP but this just ensured that other developers wanted to be paid too, and wouldn't consider converting until they were.

Certainly, Microsoft made Nokia effectively dead in the 5 years they controlled them and then had to save face by buying them.

Re:Interesting timing

[Anonymous Coward]

They were returned due to the unworkable lack of applications, not because they were widely hated. I loved the windows phones, but without apps it doesn't matter how good it is.

Re:Interesting timing

[TheRaven64]

I know a few people who liked Windows phones, but it is undeniable that they were widely hated

But were they widely hated by people who actually used them? I have only met a few people that used Windows phones, but each one has liked it and been sad to give it up. I've met a lot of people who hate Windows Phone, but none of them has used a Windows phone for more than 2 minutes in a shop and most of them never even held one in their hands. Mobile phone shops were hiding Windows phones and steering customers away from them.

Re:Interesting timing

[thegarbz]

But were they widely hated by people who actually used them?

No. They were loved by the droves of people who returned them in volumes that caused some vendors to withdraw them from sale. /sarcasm.

Re:Interesting timing

[TheRaven64]

Do you have a citation for Windows Phone getting higher return rates than other phones? And, if you do, how many of those people returned them because they didn't like Windows Phone and how many because there weren't any third-party apps?

Re:Interesting timing

[thegarbz]

The only cite I have is from Amazon suspending the Lumia 950. Other various numbers I've seen have been similar to or worse than the competition (yet never increasing above single digits). That said I've also seen an article talking about Windows phones having the best numbers evar according to research funded by MS.

Anyway no idea why. Could be lack of apps (the market place is shithouse), maybe it's the weird tile crap that people either love or hate, I highly doubt it's technical given Nokia generally has a reputation of not producing craps.

'First they laugh at you.'

[Bing Tsher E]

There. My topic line shoul cut back, at least a little, on all the forthcoming Windows Phone quips in this discussion.

Re:'First they laugh at you.'

[Anonymous Coward]

While everybody remembers the counterexamples, the vast majority of the time laughing at you is also the last thing they do.

Re: 'First they laugh at you.'

[Bing Tsher E]

Citation needed.

Re: 'First they laugh at you.'

[Anonymous Coward]

First they laugh: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

Re: 'First they laugh at you.'

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, most relevantly, every attempt by Microsoft to make a phone operating system so far.

Might be cool

[Archfeld]

It might be cool if they could work cell phone functionality into the OS so it could make like it was a cell phone and connect using VoIP. Of course even if they did it would be so insecure that it would amount to getting your phone hacked.

Re:Might be cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course even if they did it would be so insecure that it would amount to getting your phone hacked.

Then again Apple's iPhone (which is the most popular kind of smartphone in the world) has not once, but twice, been able to be completely jailbroken through a website so the bar is set pretty low.

everything is data now

[johnjones]

everything is data...

To be able to say that you support full LTE or even have a full bluetooth stack you need to support call features...

The "phone" companies are a major channel that microsoft would dearly like to be selling their windows 10 devices this is simply about sales...

if you look at a apple device they have imessage on the desktop and Windows 10 has Skype neither are great revenue providers for telecommunications companies nor do they provide loyalty to them...

John

Re: everything is data now

[Bing Tsher E]

You said everything is data now. So why would the irrelevant telecoms not fade into the sea of data?

Exciting news

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been a little bit since we've seen a failed phone ecosystem from Microsoft.
Hopefully this new failed phone system will be even more interesting anyone is expecting.
I'd like to see them come up with something that lasts as least two or three years.
Perhaps there will even be more than one generation of hardware.

These are exciting times we live in.

Re: Exciting news

[Bing Tsher E]

A phone with real updates that work, from a company that stands behind it could kill Android and take the market share that Apple doesn't want (the part that won't pay a premium for the chic-boutique, namely, 'the rest of us'.)

Apple has for decades defined themselves by 'owning' the top 'slice' of the market, and don't want the rest of us. If Microsoft can solve the Android security problem, with the Upgrade infrastructure they have built on Windows 10, they could own the market again.

Probably not gonna happen, but interesting to ponder.

Re: Exciting news

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya, like that hasn't been said before. A few times...

Re: Exciting news

[OneHundredAndTen]

You should work for IDC, or Gartner. Maybe you do?

Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows 10/ARM will soon have phone, and not just data. Anymore. Notebook size phone?

For Cortana?

[RhettLivingston]

Google Home and Alexa already have phone calling. Cortana started on and is still primarily used on the desktop. If Microsoft were to enable Cortana and Windows in general to make free calls over the internet without additional software, that would be a big plus.

Re:For Cortana?

[rtb61]

If M$ were to drop the Windows anal probe 10 and forced software installs, that might help but I think the trust is gone and people will simply not buy any consumer level software from M$ they do not have to for existing compatibility. Games are keeping them afloat in the consumer market but that market hold is diminishing. They had better start being really, really nice to their customer base, otherwise there will be no recovery. I doubt it though, they are still driven by corporate arrogance and wont change until it is too late.

Re:For Cortana?

[thegarbz]

What makes you think any of that? I have news for you, in the consumer space people don't give a crap. They don't give a crap about spying, they don't give a crap about updates, bling, features, they just don't give a crap what OS their computers run.

Consumers love the status quo. The whole Windows 10 spying thing came in long after the completely lackluster interest in the upgrade. Windows OS level upgrades have been driven by computer sales since the days where Windows stopped shipping on floppy disks.

There's nothing really that MS could do to drive improved adoption short of sending someone out in the middle of the night to hit old computers with hammers. Conversely for all their anti-consumer tactics their OS is still steadily being adopted at the same rate as new PCs (for obvious reasons), so they are able to do little to convince people not to upgrade as well.

CONSUMERS DON'T CARE. Not one iota.

Re:For Cortana?

[UnknownSoldier]

While I generally agree with your premises, and that consumer "trust" in MS is low, I think you are giving the general populace FAR too much credit.

Litmus Test / Proof: Look at the number of people who have actually stopped using FecesBook after the scandal. Only 10%?

People are generally apathetic towards computers. They have become complacent. They don't know, and don't care, about software, hardware, privacy, security. e.g. Even in 2018 you STILL read about some dumb-asses that stores their passwords in plain text!

The problem is that Office and Exchange have their tentacles in the corporate world. While LibreOffice is good, people STILL need to exchange documents. PHB (Pointed-Haired-Bosses) "need" shared Calendars. There is just too much momentum and inertia in the entire MS ecosystem.

If people were smart they would:

* Set a date, say 5 years in the future,
* Make a game plan towards transitioning to free alternatives, and
* Ditch the proprietary MicroShift once and for all.

Unfortunately, that requires work, time, money, knowledge, commitment, and coordination. There are far too many other higher priority problems that need to handled. People generally aren't interested in the long term -- especially when the short term of switching provides almost no benefit, and doing nothing doesn't make things worse.

People don't know how to look at the bigger picture, and agree about what action to take. It is partially why we have Government regulations -- because people, for the most part, aren't self-disciplined.

In other news: MicroShaft has become IBM. Boring but Safe.

Ironically, 33% of Azure runs on Linux. Heck, you can even get Azure Linux certification

Even MS uses open source when it helps their bottom line. LOL.

Re:For Cortana?

[Kjella]

I azure you, Microsoft is not going anywhere.

MacBook: $1300/1600
MacBook Air: $1000/1200
MacBook Pro: $1300/1500/1800

The sub-$1000 laptop market? Windows, Windows, Windows... and 2% Chromebook/Linux. They got 98% of Steam users. Probably 98% of the corporate market too, since Apple doesn't give a shit about anything like AD. Two more years and Windows 7 is out of support, then what? YotLD now that's a good laugh, it's exactly where it was 10 years ago. Unless Apple or Google makes a real move for the mainstream desktop soon it'll be the One Microsoft Way. I'll go Linux but I have no illusions the masses will follow.

Re:For Cortana?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once folks realize how garbage win10 is, ms will be in trouble.

Re:For Cortana?

[exomondo]

You're right, this has always been the way and many people (particularly on sites like this) seem to struggle with the concept that users do not care about the operating system. People will switch from Windows if their applications stop running on it or if they move to applications only available on other platforms.

Futility

[Stormwatch]

Despite years and billions wasted, Windows Phone remains possibly the greatest debacle in the history of capitalism. It single-handedly ruined the world's leading mobile phone maker. Nothing else - Exxon Valdez, New Coke, Edsel, Virtual Boy, Note 7 - nothing caused a destruction of wealth and market share as massive as what Nokia suffered during the suicidal Elop experiment.

But nooo, let's try again, surely this time it will sell better!

Re:Futility

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly, P != NP so here we are again for another round.

Re:For decades....

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the most "hipster" thing I've read today... go get a haircut!

Re:For decades....

[Anonymous Coward]

For decades we could not get developers to look at ANY platform other than DOS/Windows and then Windows 95/98/2k/XP

Now people have enough sense to write portable code and treat "platform" as a commodity.

If your a developer and your writing Win32/64 apps you are a relic of a bygone era, similar to the mainframe dudes when they were king of the hill.

If you're a developer and you're writing smartphone apps chances are pretty high you are just another tool wasting your time on worthless consumer noise. SNR in the App market is embarrassing.

You can say the writing is on the wall, the PC will die on the desktop while computing moves on.

I've been hearing this load of crap for decades. Surprise everyone developing software are still using real computers not tiny touch screen displays.

The only thing that has changed is more people have more choice on what is the best fit for them. Nothing has been supplanted.

Re:For decades....

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, for all the choice that I have in the market today, I still find myself in front of a desktop-style workstation, even if it's a laptop with a mouse and monitor. Mobile devices are great if you need "mobile" but there's no substitute for proper time-tested human interfaces when you want to do more than play internet games and print recipes. Touchscreens are terrible input devices for almost all computing tasks, only working out better than a television remote or video game controller. Phones suck except for their ability to always be there when you least expect to need a computer and they made the mistake of dumping all physical keyboards a long time ago in favor of grossly inferior touch keyboards. Tablets have all the disadvantages of a touchscreen phone in a larger form factor and once you put it in some kind of keyboard dock you'd be better off with an actual laptop.

I was going to disparage laptops for poor upgradability and weaker CPUs and insufficient storage capacity, but with many cheaper brand-name desktops using what is essentially a laptop platform in a mini-ITX motherboard form factor with soldered CPUs and one or two PCIe slots if you're lucky, the power and value of a desktop over a laptop has been diminished somewhat. I broke down and bought a gaming laptop and a big 21:9 external monitor for nicer video editing, but in retrospect I really should have just built a powerful desktop instead.

Re:For decades....

[Anonymous Coward]

Surprise everyone developing software are still using real computers not tiny touch screen displays.

Yep, even if Windows does somehow die, there will still be computers with large screens and keyboards that will be used to write software for smartphone, tablet, and whatever other computing devices people come up with. And the degree of power and flexibility they will need will come with issues similar to the ones PCs currently have. Hopefully fewer than Windows has, but still more than iOS and locked-down builds of Android currently have.

Re:For decades....

[Anonymous Coward]

If my "a developer" and my "writing Win32/64 apps" you are a relic of a bygone era, similar to the mainframe dudes when they were king of the hill.

I have no idea what this sentance is meant to mean.

Spearphone!

[clarksonator]

Count me in! Thatâ(TM)s easily worth $800 and all of my privacy.

Re:For decades....

[exomondo]

You can say the writing is on the wall, the PC will die on the desktop while computing moves on.

The PC will always be relevant on the desktop, despite 10 years of the modern smartphone (and 8 of the modern tablet) we still have a vast array of applications from image, video and audio editing and composition along with CAD, CAM, CAE, BIM, simulation, 3D modelling, etc. applications that just don't work in a smartphone/tablet formfactor.

The desktop is mostly dead for things like simple web browsing, email and general social networking as well as doing tasks like taking audio notes or the most basic video composition. Smartphones and tablets have become the core device for personal computing while the desktop PC remains for professional computing.

Old News - Move along

[filesiteguy]

This is why they killed the consumer phone market. They realized they had zero chance against Android and Iphone in the consumer space and no one in corporate america was buying either. However, we all would want an LTE enabled Windows device that can run all the apps in a decent form factor.

Now, does it play Minecraft?

Re:Old News - Move along

[codecore]

Surface 3 has/had an LTE option. There were ATT, Verizon, and unlocked version available.

Not a big secret

[sd4f]

Rumours have been that it's not going to be a surface phone as such, the internal name is the andromeda device and there is some coverage of it. Basically, MS have been licking their wounds and realised that they didn't win in the 'smartphone' space a few years ago. This new device, they will refuse to call it a smartphone, because they see it as something different. Don't know if it's partially to save face or whatever, but the current mantra at MS is to create new categories.

Another important thing to consider is PWA's (progressive web apps) which are probably the only sensible attempt at moving toward platform agnostic apps. This might go some way in attempting to help against the app gap MS has been plagued with, but who knows if it will take off. The MS store is an absolute mess, and it really sucks.

From what I can gather, MS have recognised that they lost smartphones, and really screwed up with reboots and delays. They also know that with the way that computing is moving, they won't remain relevant if they're exclusively on the desktop. We'll still have to see whether this thing is any good though, but smartphones have definitely hit stagnation, the biggest innovation of late is removing the headphone jack... so seeing a new attempt sounds promising, but can't predict if it will deliver.

Re:Not a big secret

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Another important thing to consider is PWA's (progressive web apps) which are probably the only sensible attempt at moving toward platform agnostic apps

Progressive web apps are not platform agnostic apps. They are a way of (in essence) remote controlling an app running on a server. Yes, the GUI is platform agnostic and local, but you don't have the control you would if it was really running on your computer (the ability to run it offline, keep version X without upgrading, run it if the Big Company decides to start charging you.)

Frankly, Java is a better solution on PCs, and any cross-compiler is a better solution on mobile. And I cannot imagine any "same app" not needing to be vastly rewritten between the two.

Re:Not a big secret

[sd4f]

But if they (currently) run in a browser, wouldn't that mean that you generally see the same code across all devices, as long as they adhere to standards? They way I've been reading about them is that they are platform agnostic, unless the coverage I've read is technically wrong.

Re:For decades....

[gravewax]

Even for Web browsing and Email a phone or tablet suck balls. After 10 years the desktop/laptop is still an infinitely better experience even for those items. tablets and phones appear like they will always augment rather than replace desktops as they just don't provide the same experience.

The days of disconnection are over

[Darkling-MHCN]

As if any modern OS would not support API for telephony?

The days of disconnected devices and apps are pretty much over. Regardless of it's form factor or size these days you expect devices to have capabilities to initiate data connections, make calls, send text messages. I think this is an obvious evolution rather than an indication of an imminent product release.

Re:The days of disconnection are over

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I'd love to see Microsoft truly produce a high quality phone.. ... but re-implementing TAPI, a Microsoft API from 1993 (before Windows 95!) does not mean they're re-attempting phone hardware.

Re:For decades....

[Kjella]

The desktop is mostly dead for things like simple web browsing,

Goes to StatCounter to check... yep, 44% market share is mostly dead. Granted, mobile is bigger with 52% and tablets make up the last 4% but the hyperbole is strong.

MS Phone = Phoenix

[stooo]

A MS Phone is like a modern technological Phoenix.
It burns down to ashes every 2 years, and then is resuscitated in a new form of the same shit which doesn't work.
This is quite a costly play for MS, so on the long run, they will run out of money.

TAPI has been in Windows, like, forever

[Anonymous Coward]

Acording to Wikipedia since 1993. That means pre-Windows95.

They have chance to get it right

[donstenk]

A third ecosystem is needed and a Surface phone that can easily dock into a large screen, keyboard and mouse setup could be enough to cover most people s computing needs.

Add OneDrive for data storage, Office 365 and all you need is a phone that can dock in a monitor or tv to work or be entertained or dock in a car for navigation etc.

Convergence like that finally makes sense.

Re: They have chance to get it right

[Anonymous Coward]

So... The Lumia 950xl and dock already have then?

Or the many cheaper variants. If you are in an MS ecosystem at all anyway, it (Continuum, etc) is Fing amazing. Too bad no Firefox and noscript for it though. That's my only real complaint. Edge is meh.

Re:They have chance to get it right

[Anonymous Coward]

A third ecosystem is needed

Apparently it isn't or MS would have had better success on it's previous n-tries.

a Surface phone that can easily dock into a large screen, keyboard and mouse setup could be enough to cover most people s computing needs.

Most people have moved on from desktop to a laptop and a laptop is more portable than a phone and a keyboard and a mouse and a large screen.

Add OneDrive for data storage

And exhaust your data limit in the first 2 days of the month.

Office 365

This covers the tiniest of fraction of peoples' needs. The long tail of apps is different for everybody and unless your ecosystem covers these, you're sunk.

all you need is a phone that can dock in a monitor or tv to work

Laptop.

dock in a car for navigation

A niche already well covered by the present devices.

Your reasoning also ignores the fact that for desktop work, phone CPUs are horribly and noticibly slow, or have you never tried to use an Atom powered netbook for any real computing? This concept has failed because it is idiotic and it will continue to fail until technology radically improves to the point that the entire present day interface of mouse/keyboard/display is relegated to the dustbin of history at which point it'll all be moot anyway.

Re:They have chance to get it right

[coofercat]

MS stand a chance of getting convergence to work if:

- They make Outlook/Word/Excel/Powerpoint work seamlessly in a browser. Right now it's no where near.
- They make OneDrive seamless too - on Windows it's "not bad", but it feels to me like it needs a bit more love. On a Mac it's utterly terrible. IMHO, making it work seamlessly on a Mac makes O365 a pretty compelling option for Mac users on a corporate network
- They find some way to make all this work on a phone. So far the UI has been terrible, or the speed was way too slow, or the integration was bad. It remains to be seen if the likes of OneDrive can be integrated in Android (or IOS) at all - but maybe they can do it properly

That's a lot of "ifs" and a good number of developer hours to achieve. Time will tell...

Re:They have chance to get it right

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you seen benchmarks for newer Atoms like Apollo Lake and Gemini Lake? That's not bad. These laptops or mini tablets need to come with 8GB or 16GB RAM and good enough flash though ; both are expensive. Netbooks were a success because they had 1GB RAM, Windows XP and a real hard drive. People ran Photoshop and other workstation apps on them. Back in the day the 1GB RAM and the 160GB hard drive were an upgrade over previous computers while the CPU was not. Today though with 2GB/32GB or 4GB/64GB they're back to running only Word and Solitaire.

Re:They have chance to get it right

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, there is a core of users who actually liked the Windows Phone devices. And I believe them.

The Live Tiles interface is quite clever and makes for a more dynamic phone interface. This UI is well-suited to touch devices. And the various MS Surface devices have done well and have a good reputation. Seriously, Live Tiles are better than anything that Apple or Android bring to the table, in terms of UI building blocks.

Now, given that Microsoft has face-planted on the entire phone market, frankly they have a lot to prove. Simply issuing a device called the "Surface Phone" isn't going to win anyone over. MS also has a deep problem with a lack of Metro/Modern/Windows apps. Not sure what they can do on that front.

LTE in laptops

[bernywork]

How does 3G / LTE work in laptops now? Is that a device and it's managed through TAPI?

I know laptops with SIM card slots, and the new surface pro also has LTE, how is this managed otherwise? Is this a new centralised API for this for device manufacturers to integrate with and build a modern interface to handle this requirement? Are dial profiles per user? So, how does Direct Access work in those situations?

Let's be objective - it might work

[Anonymous Coward]

If MS releases a phone that serves as a tiny PC that can be a phone or also connect to a monitor / keyboard / dock with the "full windows experience" and then plies the carriers with the usual marketing cash that they generally apply, a number of people will be open to trying it. However, for many, there will never be any interest in a Windows phone. Many people simply dislike Microsoft, and many have seen the failure of the Windows phones and will not be burned again.

If MS releases something really amazing, it might gain traction. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

Not necessarily for MS phones

[Anonymous Coward]

MS just wants Windows to run on any form factor, so naturally they would build APIs for many types of devices.

Last Windows Phone was great

[lamer01]

Except for the lack of vertical apps and such, the actual phone as a communications platform was superior to IPhone and Android.

Re:Last Windows Phone was great

[GabeGhearing]

Was it?

I had a WindowsPhone7 and the live tiles were interesting; but ultimately made the phone harder to use. Either I couldn't get the tile to display something useful or it was hard to find apps because the tile looked too different when it updated.

I also remember getting copy/paste in an update(WindowsPhone 7.2?).

The browser not being WebKit based meant you had completely different issues from Android and iPhone on the web... Technically it was fairly standards compliant; but was a pain in the ass to use.

Just.....no....fuck....no...not again....

[Bearhouse]

Please. I've had to put up with WinCE - well named, since "wince" is what you did trying to program those things, plus the fact that MS regularly fucked you because the next release was never even close to being compatible with the previous...
Software updates? Fuck you - change your hardware if you want that.

As for the Nokia-era "Windows" phones, the Nokia hardware was typically OK, (especially the cameras, and at least you could replace the battery) but the interface....awful. Just gouge-your-own-eyes-out frustrating.

Of course, all the above meant that the 3rd-party apps and hardware goodies market was nonexistent.
Looking for your favorite app or a snazzy hifi docking charger thingy, well you're shit outta luck.

Now, we can look forward to all of this with added Windows 10 spyware goodness?
No. Just say no. Fuck no.

Re:Just.....no....fuck....no...not again....

[Anonymous Coward]

But it has killer apps : Windows Defender, Search Indexing and Windows Updates. This is so much better than the Windows 95 days, where you ran Mine Sweep and watched the Defragmenter's colored blocks. They even run themselves! You don't have to hunt them in the start menu.

Re: 'First they laugh at you..... then

[Anonymous Coward]

they laugh at you again

Re:For decades....

[exomondo]

By 'dead' i mean not a growth market, in fact it's rapidly declined in the last decade.

Re:For decades....

[exomondo]

Even for Web browsing and Email a phone or tablet suck balls.

That's really a subjective view, you can quite easily say "well i don't like browsing on touchscreens therefore web browsing on mobile and tablet sucks".

tablets and phones appear like they will always augment rather than replace desktops as they just don't provide the same experience.

Yes that's my point. If you look at the tasks that have declined percentage-wise on desktop it's things like web browsing as they have moved to mobile (regardless of whether you say that sucks or not) but looking at the various industries the professional content creation remains on the desktop.

how to hack

[Anonymous Coward]

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