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Trump Administration Plans To Freeze Obama-Era Fuel Standards (theverge.com)
The Trump administration plans to freeze Obama-era fuel-efficiency standards starting in 2021, according to a report from The Washington Post. The report says the Trump administration "would go even further by restricting a state's ability to set its own fuel standards, which would be a strike against California and its strict state-specific emissions rules," reports The Verge. From the report: The proposal has been reportedly drafted by the Department of Transportation's National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration, and the plan right now is to freeze standards for cars and light trucks at levels set for the year 2021 and keep them their for five years. The Obama administration's rules, which involved a partnership with California and car makers, set standards at 50 miles per gallon for cars and light trucks by 2025. Obama also, through the Clean Air Act, granted California a waiver to set its own, higher standards. That way, if automobile manufacturers wanted to maintain a presence in the lucrative California market, they'd have to abide by the new rules. The Trump administration now says a separate law overrules that arrangement, The Washington Post reports.
You know what that sound is?
That's the coal train leaving the station!! ALL ABOARD!
Ford just mostly pulled out of the North American car market, leaving the US/Canada with a bunch of tippy little trucklets and bigger trucks. I hope gas does a 2008 and shoots up to $5/gal soon -- if it won't push people to buy more reasonable cars, maybe it will at least help sales of electric cars out of their current niche.
Also, thank God for the Japanese makers who still sell reasonably-sized, nice-to-drive actual cars in the US market.
When you govern by issuing waivers to the law instead of actually using compromise and diplomacy to pass laws, then at some point you have to expect a new Presidential Administration might be elected and revoke those waivers and reverse previous executive actions.
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
The drinking age, the war on drugs, the nationalization of airport security, now this: When are the states going to start standing-up for their legislative independence? If the federal government had to get approval from the states, the ever-increasing list of corporate rights would not exist. In truth, the states aren't so united. The states first have to agree with each other before they have a hope of disagreeing with an abusive federal government.
More like a strike against Chevron(*), which controls he reformulation of gasoline in California to prevent importation of gasoline refined in other states, and artificially raise the price.
State specific environmental regulations should be held to he same bar as state specific laws... subject to the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution: Federal regulations override state.
(*) From those wonderful folks who brought you MTBE
This is just an announcement to claim he kept his "promise". He won't even be President in 2021. Things will be unfrozen by then.
"there".
Good thing is that the lithium, once mined, is recyclable. And most people drive under 50 miles a day. Which means that, with more charging stations coming online, newer electric "commuter" cars could have smaller batteries. Enough for a range of ~100 miles, not 300-400.
Also, dead is dead. How many kids have died in horrible ways in US-funded and often US-lead wars over oil? US still uses napalm. Which really does stick to kids and burn like hell.
This is classic whataboutism.
They're just a bunch of Koch suckers.
Debate is a form of harassment. Do not question my truth.
> Ford just mostly pulled out of the North American car market, leaving the US/Canada with a bunch of tippy little trucklets and bigger trucks.
You know why? Cars have stricter fuel-efficiency standards than light trucks. That makes sense. However it creates the perverse incentive that in order to meet fuel efficiency standards, manufacturers need to make bigger, heavier, less-efficient vehicles - trucks.
As the world currently has a population of double to triple what it can comfortably sustain, I tend to agree. It's pretty much a win-win.
I'll probably retrofit my car to burn wood gas. /s
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com...
I wonder how a car computer would deal with it?
I always learned that states rights was an outdated racist concept that we killed off in the Civil War. Having 50 standards was wrong when having one standard made much more sense. The state level bureaucrats got substandard educations from State U instead of the elite Ivy League and as such were unqualified to govern effectively. Now suddenly states rights is progressive and having 50 different standards designed by morons is a good thing? Am I the only one experiencing cognitive dissonance here?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
1. Lithium is not a "rare earth".
2. Lithium is not a conflict mineral.
3. Lithium is extracted from salt flats or brine. Neither process uses either children or slaves.
all because of those evil Republicans? Puh-lease. 50mpg is not a realistic number for fuel consumption on anything you'd be willing to buy. Hell, you'd just about need to replace all cars with motorcycles for 50mpg to be fleet average. It's a number Obama's people pulled out of their asses so they could slowly kill personal car ownership and pack everyone nose-to-tail into cities.
Lithium is extracted from salt flats or brine. Neither process uses either children or slaves.
So that's what we've been doing wrong! Shit, I gotta call some people.
I heard that Kanye West drives a car powered by diamonds...
Well, GP did say "We clearly do not have enough conflict lithium being mined via slave labor", which I suppose could be considered technically accurate if it turns out he wasn't actually being sarcastic.
As the world currently has a population of double to triple what it can comfortably sustain
I'm convinced only people living in a megalopolis could believe this drivel.
Try visiting other places sometime. Go to Tennessee, or Wyoming, or Patagonia. There's certainly room for several times the earth's current population without any noticeable effects.
One does not simply reverse Obama's edicts, apparently ... he's like the King of Babylon.
That's what the major car companies kept trying to shovel down consumers' throats, and nobody bought them. It has nothing to do with charging station availability. With such a short range, you don't really have much choice but to charge your car every night when you get home, because nobody wants to spend 30+ minutes every day charging. (Remember, you won't be able to charge as fast if you're filling the battery all the way to the top, and the shorter the total range, the more likely you'll be to have to fully fill the battery every day, so AFAIK, charging should take disproportionately longer per mile than with longer-range cars, assuming all else is equal.)
The thing is, Tesla's charge times (except when the supercharger is full and you have to wait behind four or five cars just to start charging, like you do in most of the Bay Area) are actually pretty much in the sweet spot, at 50-70 minutes. That's long enough to get out of the car, walk to a restaurant, eat, and come back. At 30 minutes, that isn't possible unless the charger is literally in the parking lot of the restaurant. It's too long to treat as just another minor part of your commute like a gas station fill-up would be, but it isn't long enough to comfortably get food while you wait. So IMO, no matter how ubiquitous charging stations become, unless charge times drop to almost nothing, there will never be a serious market for cars with only a 100-mile range except perhaps in California (and even then, only for the carpool lane stickers).
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Neither process uses either children or slaves.
So you're saying there are 'untapped inefficiencies' that could be addressed?
"US still uses napalm. Which really does stick to kids and burn like hell."
Needs citation.
Not with that attitude!
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
So charge at home overnight. You can charge at about 12kWh per hour off a 240V/50A circuit. 2.5 hr gives you enough charge (30kWh) to go 100 miles, whole day's driving and more for most people. If there are chargers at work, you can also charge there. Viola! Another 100 miles' range, 200mi per day.
Well, of course they are!
Ah yes, because today I burn a full tank of gas to go out to eat, fuel up and burn another tank to get back home. Thanks for the valuable insight!
50mpg is not a realistic number for fuel consumption on anything you'd be willing to buy.
The Chevy Volt and the Toyota Prius both do better than 50mpg, and plenty of people are willing to buy them. They are both based on years-old technology, so there's no reason (outside of laziness and a race-to-the-bottom mentality) that carmakers can't do even better going forward.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Your forgetting too, that after President Trump's terms expire, Mike Pence's terms wil run through 2032.
>Napalm
I think you might be confusing it with white phosphorus. The U.S hasn't used napalm that much since Vietnam as its largely replaced by PGMs and white phosphorus, the latter of which doubles as a smokescreen and artillery marker.
As for Iraq, the Middle East in general doubles as an important strategic crossroads. Look at a map of the world, and note that the Middle East is connected to Asia, Europe, and Africa. This proximity to so many other regions and countries alone makes it important.
You're missing the forest from the trees.
The average CITY driver drives less than 100 miles in a day. The average rural driver drives 100 miles just to go to Costco (the closest Costco where I once lived was a good 250 miles.) If there are no EV dealerships in your rural area, you are not going to buy an EV no matter what.
I was considering moving out to the rural boondocks again and was considering how I could buy an EV and basically came up with "It's not possible", You'd have to live within 100 miles of the dealership that sold it to you.
Hence the "sweet spot" for non-city commuter cars is about 500 miles. For Taxi, Delivery and Transit use, you need to consider a battery-swap system.
White phosphorus actually is worse than napalm -- burns the skin, keeps burning even when "put out", and often kills people slowly from phosphorus poisoning.
The majority of Americans don't live in the rural US. Infernal combustion cars aren't going anywhere for the 10% of truly rural population.
2. Lithium is not a conflict mineral.
Once demand increases enough, it will.
3. Lithium is extracted from salt flats or brine. Neither process uses either children or slaves.
Once demand increases enough, they will.
This is naivete speaking. While there certainly may be "room" for people, the resources simply do not exist.
Dense Metro areas have high real estate prices, expensive food, and expensive transit. There are no farms (though farm-scrapers might be a thing coming soon.) When you live in a city, you are in competition with others for living space, jobs and places to eat.
When you live in rural butt-fuckin-nowhere, those same competitions exist, but now instead of being of the "I can pick from a shoebox, a shoebox, or a shoebox" in the city, you have only the largest most inefficient buildings, city layouts, and no transit resources to speak of.
So it may cost someone in SFO, YVR, or NYC 2000$ to live in a piece of shit 200sq ft shoebox branded as "luxury", often the lack of having to pay for a car, and the ability to have just about everything delivered makes up for that cost. Where as rural areas need you to buy the 5000sq ft mcmansion that costs $1500/mo in mortgage payments on top of $5000/mo in car, fuel and maintenance costs. Plus you have to drive everywhere, so you lose a lot of personal time to be with your family.
So when it comes to resources, the planet maximum was about 4 billion. We're at 8+ Billion. We're going to start seeing wars over clean water, and we've seen first-hand what this looks like in California already, where the farmers plant highly inefficient crops (almonds) , because they're the most profitable, but suck the water supply dry. California at least has the option to use desalinized water for non-irrigation (using it on crops will reduce the size of them, and eventually render the soil useless.)
"Lithium is extracted from salt flats or brine. Neither process uses either children or slaves"
Lithium is also extracted from lepidolite, which is in fact extracted in many countries with slave labor (which is incidentally children looking for lithium-borate gems within those lepidolite bodies.)
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Plus there is a stack of awesome V8s all over the used market. 75% of the motors in useless mall utility vehicles, so the good cars will be going for the foreseeable future. Lots of cheap parts for miles and miles.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
suck my DAMN balls
One of them got a job.
...of your mom.
Also, dead is dead. How many kids have died in horrible ways in US-funded and often US-lead wars over oil? US still uses napalm. Which really does stick to kids and burn like hell.
I'm drunk and confused, but mostly confused.
Did the US napalm kids to obtain oil to stave off electric cars?
Here's a link to the real newsstory as referenced by the blogpost in the summary links to.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
yes, yes,
yes, yes and yes.
Stop eating all that crap "ecological" crap... Most of it is actually worse than going with the mass-produced stuff, in terms of environmental damage caused per calorie produced.
Wow, the Wapo is alt-left now?
I don't know. But, whether full of "liberal" things or not I doubt they can be called leftists. It's a newspaper owned by a super-billionaire, and is a vile pro-war imperialist rag.
Most lithium is mined in Australia so maybe it's time for them to enforce their child-labor laws then.
Hence the "sweet spot" for non-city commuter cars is about 500 miles.
? I've lived in very rural areas most of my life and never had a ICE car that could do more than 325 miles on a tank while living there. I never noticed a problem.
My last truck, an F150, could do 500 if I let it suck fumes. But that was because it had a 26 gallon tank. When gas broke $4 a gallon, filling that damn thing hurt bad. I did break $100 a couple of times.
I'm in a suburban environment now, but would have loved having a 200 mile or better BEV when I lived in the country. My electric was via a natural gas generator fed by free wellhead gas. I'd have been driving for free.
You dumb fuck science denier rednecks are just as annoying as lazy fragile smelly SJW hipster socialist democrats.
Remarks like you made above just show what a clueless narrow minded jerkoff you are. You're no better than the people you despise, you only imagine you are better. The truth is you are "better" only in a VERY narrow frame of reference, and that frame of reference does not even exist in most of the world, outside the areas we tend to call "civilized".
The dumb fuck rednecks own a whole lot of guns and they know how to use them. They also have a lot of other skills and knowledge that YOU do not have. And those skills happen to be the skills that will enable survival if things get ugly.
If society collapsed, you'd soon be begging those rednecks for help, so you could survive. If left to your own devices, you'd probably last a couple of weeks at most. So trumpet your superiority while you can, but remember, it can all vanish in a matter of seconds and leave you begging for help or begging for mercy. And frankly I don't think you would deserve either one.
Those that voted for GOP based on Trump's stance on any of the issues (immigration, white supremacy, abortion, family values, generally conservative direction of the GOP appointed judiciary...) need to realize what they are giving up in return. And what they are getting in return is going to be short-lived (i.e. for example tax cuts are practically non-existent). This administration has created a swamp like no other.
Charge at home overnight? I live in a condo you moran. I live there because I have half a mile walk to work. On the weekend I take drive less than 300 miles thought we day when I go out hiking/camping/shooting pics
If electric cars were popular, your condo's board would likely have charging stations installed. Maybe even with a subsidy from the power company, who'd love to sell more power.
It is not about the space, it is about the rate at which we consume resources and said resources replacement.
"I'll be back!" said the Soccer-Mom Hummer.
Coming soon(TM) to an oilfield near you, the mega-guzzler Hummer 2020 edition.
Ford are rumoured to be considering a 180 and releasing the Ford Inefficiency, a 12.0 litre v12.
Infernal combustion cars
I assume that was an autocorrect mistake, but I absolutely love it. Some kind of mix between a crotchety old-timer who doesn't want to give up his horse buggy and a mindless hipster twitter jokey who thinks all fossil fuels are pure evil.
"What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
/)
> pretty much in the sweet spot, at 50-70 minutes
It is. I don't know anyone that isn't a Nazi that wouldn't spend 60 extra minutes a day waiting on a car to charge.
yeahhhh.. not looking forward to that 15 minute 'quick charge', twice.. each way.. just to drive into the city.
100 mile range might be fine for a 'city' car that's only used for commutes and trips to the neighborhood grocery store, but the u.s. is spread out. more than half the population would need a lot more range than that.
when Clinton (Bill) shifted the Democratic party right to win the presidency. The Republicans then moved right to protect their own identity (after all, why vote Republican when the Dems are damn near the same) and then the Dems decided to move to the new "center" and here we are with both parties far, far to the right of Eisenhower. Bernie's trying to get things moving back in the direction of FDR and the like.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Except you don't charge every day with a Tesla. If you have home charging capabilities, you probably only charge when on trips, and you pretty much have to eat out then anyway, so that hour isn't lost. And even if you don't have home charging capabilities and thus have to rely on the supercharger for everything, you're still likely to charge only a couple of times per week at most. The "every day" bit was based on having only a third of a Tesla's range.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
My car does about 350km on a tank of LPG. It's not a lot and within the range of some EVs. There are two differences though:
1. As my car was modified to run on LPG, it retains the gasoline tank, so, I can switch to gasoline if the LPG runs out and there are no fuel stations nearby.
2. It takes a couple of minutes to refill the LPG tank all the way to the top. If I spend something like 10 minutes in a gas station, both fuel tanks would be full when I left (assuming no lines).
Are you allowed to have only two people running for president in the US and they get replaced only after they win or die ? I would expect someone else than Hillary showing up for next presidential run on the Democrat side
No, you can't. Not safely, anyway. By law, you have to de-rate circuits by 20% for continuous use like EV charging. So your 50A circuit provides 40A, which is only 9.6 kWh per hour.
The problem with your approach is that it doesn't scale. At 9.6 kWh per hour, in theory, you would need about four hours of charge per vehicle for that hundred-mile range. Unfortunately, that's actually a best-case estimate, because it assumes that your battery has at least a 200 mile range and is starting out empty.
In practice, lithium battery charging slows down as the battery gets closer to being full, which means that if putting 100 miles into an empty 300-mile battery would take four hours, putting 100 miles into an empty 100-mile battery would likely take closer to 6 hours. So unless your employer does some sort of staggered work hours, this effectively means that if every employee actually needed 100 miles of range each day, you would literally need one charger for each employee who owns an electric car. Providing five or ten 50A circuits per building is relatively easy. Providing 200 EV circuits per building is not.
The other big problem with your theory is the assumption that an EPA-rated 100-mile range is enough for a 50-mile round trip. That doesn't factor in things like heat in the winter, climbing hills, or the fact that smaller EV batteries lose on the order of 10% of their capacity every year. In five years, you'd better be ready to buy a new car, or else you'll find yourself not making it home.
You see, the other major advantage of a larger battery is that the larger capacity lets you leave a lot of charge in the bottom and never fully charge the cells all the way to the top. Deep discharging and full charging are hard on batteries, and avoiding both of those scenarios makes a big difference in their life expectancy.
Also, the larger capacity means that the batteries run down over 3x as many miles, which means they get a third as many cycles per mile. Those differences mean losing 5% of your charge after five years instead of 50%.
The bottom line is that 100-mile EVs are really quite impractical, and it isn't just because people are worried about needing to make longer trips. No improvements to the charging network can solve those fundamental problems, because you'll still be absolutely torturing their batteries. Anyone who buys a car that can't make at least three or four round trips per charge is likely to regret that decision. And if folks lease the cars instead, then the poor suckers who buy them used after three years are likely to regret their decisions even more. Building cars with such limited range just doesn't make sense.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Here is the full rule (1500 pages) for 2012-2016 if you'd like to read it, but I'll summarize a bit for you.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfi...
> fleet-wide averages, without as much exception for "trucks."
There are two (or more) completely separate fleets. Cars, light trucks, medium trucks (and busses), heavy trucks, motorcycles. There is no "exception", the two groups are computed entirely separately, based on entirely different MPG standards and different average lifetime miles.
For CAFE purposes, each company is essentially split into two companies - a truck company and a car company. (Also motorcycles and large trucks are computed entirely separate, as if they were different companies). You can read the full details in the EPA rules above.
So first the company does its cars. The first step on calculating the car standard is to find the average size (footprint) of the company's cars. I'll directly quote the EPA rule on this rather than trying to explain it in my own words:
--
EPAâ(TM)s final standards, like the standards NHTSA
promulgated in March 2009 for MY 2011, are expressed as mathematical functions depending on vehicle footprint. Footprint is one measure of vehicle size, and is
determined by multiplying the vehicleâ(TM)s wheelbase by the vehicleâ(TM)s average track width.
--
After finding the footprint, you look at the table (section 3, I think) that gives the formula for your range. Inputting the average footprint, the formula tells what the average fuel economy needs to be, in GALLONS PER MILE.
It's gallons per mile because a vehicle that gets 1MPG burns twice as much gas as one that gets 2MPG, but a vehicle that gets 99MPG is almost the same as one that gets 100MPG.
Subtract your company's ACTUAL average GPM for cars from the standard to get the amount of credit or debit. If the company is more efficient than required, it can either save those credits for next year, or sell the credits to another car company. Similarly, if this year's sales aren't efficient enough, the company can either use credits it earned in an earlier year, or buy credits from a more efficient company. (Credit brokers are allowed, but cannot actually own the credits, only bank them).
Once your done with the cars, you go through the same procedure, separately, for your motorcycles, then again completely separately for light trucks, etc.
I mentioned that a company that doesn't meet its target can buy credits from a company that the target. What Mack beats their heavy truck target, while BMW needs to buy credits for their cars? Mack has truck credits to sell, BMW wants to buy car credits. The public doesn't care whether a gallon of gas is burned in a motorcycle or a bus, they only care how much as is burned, so before trading companies can apply a formula to convert light truck credits to car credits, or car credits to medium truck credits or whatever. (It's not one-for-one, different kinds of credits are "worth" different amounts). Note that it may be Volvo's truck credits offsetting Ferrari's car debit. The Corporate in CAFE doesn't matter once you start trading different kinds of credits.
Just as GMC can convert truck credits to (fewer) car credits in order to sell them to Ferrari, GMC can also convert truck credits to car credits for Buick. GMC and Buick happen to be the same company, but GMC could just as easily trade those credits to a different company, maybe Ford or Volkswagen.
Again, the full details are in the actual rule linked above, but the summary is that car, light truck, medium truck, and heavy truck are computed completely separate, like separate companies. There is no averaging between cars and trucks.
This is naivete speaking. While there certainly may be "room" for people, the resources simply do not exist.
Dense Metro areas have high real estate prices, expensive food, and expensive transit. There are no farms (though farm-scrapers might be a thing coming soon.) When you live in a city, you are in competition with others for living space, jobs and places to eat.
When you live in rural butt-fuckin-nowhere, those same competitions exist, but now instead of being of the "I can pick from a shoebox, a shoebox, or a shoebox" in the city, you have only the largest most inefficient buildings, city layouts, and no transit resources to speak of.
So it may cost someone in SFO, YVR, or NYC 2000$ to live in a piece of shit 200sq ft shoebox branded as "luxury", often the lack of having to pay for a car, and the ability to have just about everything delivered makes up for that cost. Where as rural areas need you to buy the 5000sq ft mcmansion that costs $1500/mo in mortgage payments on top of $5000/mo in car, fuel and maintenance costs. Plus you have to drive everywhere, so you lose a lot of personal time to be with your family.
So when it comes to resources, the planet maximum was about 4 billion. We're at 8+ Billion. We're going to start seeing wars over clean water, and we've seen first-hand what this looks like in California already, where the farmers plant highly inefficient crops (almonds) , because they're the most profitable, but suck the water supply dry. California at least has the option to use desalinized water for non-irrigation (using it on crops will reduce the size of them, and eventually render the soil useless.)
LOL!
You kids!
Listen boys and girls, they've been predicting the "population bomb" since a guy named Malthus opened his trap 200 years ago. Humans just keep expanding their ability to support more humans far faster than there's more humans. Even now we have far more than enough resources for everyone.
"Enough" isn't the problem.
It's mostly about getting the people who have control over those without enough to allow the resources to get to those in need instead of either forbidding it or stealing what's sent.
As far as other resources, it won't be that long in a history sense before humans start harvesting resources from and processing many of them, at least partially, in space. Twenty, maybe thirty years max before it starts. Once it begins rolling in earnest it will snowball quickly. The solar power and countless asteroids and other bodies of all sorts of compositions passing near to be tapped alone will bring a cornucopia of resources to our disposal.
We just have to prevent our various governments and corporations from turning us all into slaves in the meantime.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
No, in actual rural areas, that 5,000 sq. ft. "McMansion", as you called it, costs about $180,000. That's only $908 per month.
And nobody in rural areas spends $5,000 per month on a car. Some folks don't even spend $5,000 on a car, period. Also, gas prices are a buck a gallon lower than in California, so even if you drive half again farther, you break even. Also, your license plate costs you $27 instead of a grand.
Come again? Desalinization is not used for irrigation because of the high cost, not because it damages the soil. In fact, both Spain and Israel use desalinized water for irrigation routinely, and Spain is making plans to dramatically increase their desalinization output for agricultural use.
Further, there's no reason to believe that we are anywhere near the maximum capacity of this planet. Anyone who says otherwise is probably selling something. Does this mean that population growth is zero-risk? Of course not. There's always the possibility that the world could stop trying to innovate and solve the problems that population growth causes, in which case yes, we would eventually be screwed. But realistically, that's what people do, so concluding that we're screwed basically requires completely ignoring everything that makes us human. I'm just not willing to do that, and you shouldn't, either.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
You HOPE gas prices skyrocket? REALLY? You desire that millions of people who are having enough trouble making ends meet get faced with MORE costs to satisfy your personal political preferences?
Bastard.
Tell me: Have YOU stopped using ALL energy that you do not NEED to use to live? Have YOU stopped surfing the web, going to movies, taking vacations, eating out, etc? What warped sense of morality makes it right for YOU to waste energy when you appear to be somebody who thinks the planet's in danger - while you demand that other people have their energy use constricted as they use it to do stuff they MUST do like go to work to earn the money to provide their kids with food and medicine?
If ANYBODY deserves an artificially-induced economic disaster, it's people like you who hope for misery on everybody else simply because you have been propagandized to believe in an Earth-worshipping cult - people who want to use the force of government to push down on the citizenry. After your boots are nice and shiny, you should get to work on a spiffy new armband.
the fact that smaller EV batteries lose on the order of 10% of their capacity every year.
And if you want a car with nore power behind it, you can always get a Tesla Model S P100D (102 MPGe) that will blow the doors off almost anything else on the road.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
In the first months of his time as president, Obama met ONE time with Republican leadership on his healthcare plans. On national TV Obama addressed Senator McCain (the guy he defeated for the presidency) and said "I won, you lost" and then he announced that he would give them until early summer to agree with him. In less than a month, Obama abandoned that deadline and he and Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi announced that there would be no cooperation with the Republicans and the ramming-through of policy changes on a pure party-line process began.
The summer of 2009 was when politics in Washington DC went fully-toxic and partisan. The Democrats were so desperate to never compromise with Republicans that they never allowed any real budgets to pass through congress during the 8 years of Obama. Everything was under continuing resolutions. Now these same Democrats have been refusing the traditional shortcuts to approvals of presidential appointees that have happened in congress for two centuries. By insisting on full hearings and long degates on each appointee they have blocked Trump from having all his appointees and the congress itself now admits it will take 9 YEARS to get the full set of appointees confirmed.
This probably saounds great to you Never Trumpers.... but just like the "pen and a phone" policy of Obama that you LOVED, it will come back to bite you in the future. Obama will be the last Democrat president to get all his nominees confirmed. Republican voters in the future will not tolerate Republicans in congress confirming Democrat appointees more generously than you people are treating Trump appointees now. Pre-Obama politics in America worked because both parties observed a level of civility and comety. Obama and his supporters tossed that all out and the blowback begins with Trump but will become far worse when the next Democrat wins the Presidency.
Payback's a bitch
How about the reason that many of their customers want to buy something besides a volt or a prius style vehicle?
But sure, let's force all restaurants to close and all grocery stores to only sell vegetables and low-fat meats because the feds have decided that's what's best for people to eat and who cares about what people's own preferences are!
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
Yeah, the NY Times and the Washington Post have been the left-wing papers in those towns for a long time, while the NY Post and the Washington Times are the more right-wing papers.
Or are you measuring them against your own imaginary standard of your own super left-wing views, instead of against other newspapers?
The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
Future USA is looking amazing. /s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Eastern_China_smog
I look forward to more children dying in third world countries which have lithium and other rare earths used in the production of batteries and solar cells.
Personally I think we should stick with burning oil. Children dying in the USA from pollution is far more socially acceptable.
Oh and in case you're as stupid as I think you are the above was sarcasm and if you read between the lines I am calling you stupid. So stupid in fact I thought you can't read between the lines and expressly posted it here just so you can't misread my statement.
With such a short range, you don't really have much choice but to charge your car every night when you get home
To be clear are you saying that people don't charge their car every night at home? Because that would be a significant difference to observations to date of electric car owners.
Tesla's charge times (except when the supercharger is full and you have to wait behind four or five cars just to start charging, like you do in most of the Bay Area) are actually pretty much in the sweet spot
Not even remotely. The sweet spot it 8-15minutes. The vast majority of road users don't sit down at a restaurant even on long road trips which is also why the vast majority of service stations partner with fast food or deli style restaurants rather than actual meals. Those places which do also offer meals see a very small sale of those compared to the grab and dash options available. 8min is the average time spent on the forecourt in a truck stop service station for a passenger vehicle right now, and 15min is an industry target based on the fact that most people spend less than 20min in the restaurants.
These are incidentally also the target figures of both of the consortium planning fast charging networks within Europe, and the first consortium already has charging stations in place.
At 30 minutes, that isn't possible unless the charger is literally in the parking lot of the restaurant.
The thing about where chargers typically get placed (including Tesla superchargers) is that they are in the parking lots of the restaurants. You see your initial and incorrect assertion is what drives the design basis for picking these locations. People actually DO charge their cars every night. So the majority of fast chargers including Tesla superchargers are in highway locations... in the parking lot of restaurants.
unless charge times drop to almost nothing, there will never be a serious market for cars with only a 100-mile range
The most popular electric car in Europe completely eclipsing the Telsa is the Zoe, and the most popular model has the 22kwh pack with it's whopping 130mile range using NEDC standard, often quoted as being inaccurate and conservative.
50mpg is not a realistic number for fuel consumption on anything you'd be willing to buy
My 10 year old piece of shit gets 48mpg and it's not a hybrid or diesel. I still have no problem doing 180km/h down the autobahn so it's plenty powerful enough. Maybe you rightwingnutjobs just need to get your head out of your arses.
I get 47mpg on my stock standard 10 year old gasoline car. No hybrid drive train, no high efficiency diesel.
*I said 48mpg in a reply above, but that was a rounding error.
Lithium can be extracted from lepidolite, but not much actually is.
Over 40% of the world's lithium supply comes from Australia, primarily spodumene mines like these. Chile and Argentina produce another 45% from brine evaporation, as is most of China's output which supplies around 7%. The rest comes from the USA, Canada, Brazil, Portugal, and 2% from petalite and spodumene mines in Zimbabwe.
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
Given that Ford is stopping most auto production in favor or pickups and SUV's. I would say most American's don't give a crap about saving the Earth when it comes to comfort. Plenty of people are not willing to buy hybrids or all electrics so don't fool yourself into thinking so.
FWIW, I own both a 2012 Chevy Volt and a Ford F150 (I work from home so we rarely drive the F150 except for hauling things)
We've owned our volt for about 4-5 years now. We're currently sitting at something like 108MPG. We mostly drive it around town but haven't made any real effort to get the MPG up. We also live in Minnesota where the cold winters drop the battery range to something like 25 miles.
The volt is an absolutely fantastic vehicle. The only real downside is that visibility is really limited and it's a bit too small. A slightly bigger version with better visibility and better range (Though frankly it's more or less fine as is) would be about as close to the perfect small sedan as you can get imho.
To some extent grab and dash is because people want a short break and a snack, and fill up when they are there. People could, longer term, change their habits, if in an electric SDC. I see a market for advertising your rest to SDCs via the entertainment system based on travel time, charge status, FaceBook status.
The new Nissans and Renaults are nominal 230 miles range,so 100 is a red herring
If you have home charging capabilities, you probably only charge when on trips, and you pretty much have to eat out then anyway,
Is there something about an EV that prevents you from packing a lunch? A child can manage that.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Good thing is that the lithium, once mined, is recyclable.
Is anyone actually doing this yet? Last I heard, when batteries were destroyed, the electrolyte was destroyed as well. Only the metal parts were recovered and recycled.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The US, and its NATO allies, do NOT use napalm.
They got something better...not be used on civilians, of course....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
External combustion engines already exist. They're called Sterlings.
We are doing our best to make you less competitive in the global market. Love, Donnie T.
Lithium is not, but Cobalt is. Fortunately it seems likely that a lithium battery can be made with much less or even without cobalt in the near future.
By law, you have to de-rate circuits by 20% for continuous use like EV charging. So your 50A circuit provides 40A, which is only 9.6 kWh per hour.
By law, your circuit will handle the rated capacity by design or somebody is going to jail.
And this helps who? Not you and I , but big fat greedy investors and auto execs. Come US Government, start thinking long term...like more that 2 years out! And what is up with American bubbys and their rediculous gas guzzling pickup trucks?
With Trump, the US *has* decided to stop innovating in support of finding ways for a growing population to survive. A few companies and states may not have gotten that message completely, but it's his national policy. Innovation must be limited to extracting maximum revenue for the rich and the corporations (not the same groups, but overlapping) from the little people while killing the truly poor (who don't buy enough to be worth of consideration) off slowly. The modern "inconvenient truth." Yes, we (at least the US) are screwed.
For the first 10-15 sec. Then it has to go into cool-down mode. Teslas are undeniably quick. But in a world where even trucks can approach 150mph if the tires are replaced with something appropriate to that speed, they're not particularly fast. I'd also like to see what a Tesla can tow and for how long - we used to haul pretty good-sized travel and utility trailers with larger cars (think Cadillacs).
No, you can't. Not safely, anyway. By law, you have to de-rate circuits by 20% for continuous use like EV charging. So your 50A circuit provides 40A, which is only 9.6 kWh per hour.
Incorrect, Electrician by trade. On a dedicated circuit(120v or 220v) I can use every amp available continuous, only on appliances with high starting inrush do you provide a higher breaker size and you also have to raise the wire gauge to match breaker size. On a circuit without a dedicated load, do you have to de-rate what you install, and that is because high draw appliances(vacuums) can be plugged in while other stuff is also plugged in. also for expansion at a later point.
A device like a Tesla is considered a Dedicated Load, even if you unplug it or only plug it in periodically.
How about the reason that many of their customers want to buy something besides a volt or a prius style vehicle?
There's no reason fuel-efficient vehicles can't be produced in any style. You want a 50+mpg Hummer, go ahead! There's nothing preventing anyone from manufacturing one; hybrid and electric technology works even for larger and less-aerodynamic vehicles.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
People could, longer term, change their habits
What's the use case? Overpriced, poor quality food with limited selection for a long sit down meal in favour of getting to your destination faster and having a nice enjoyable meal?
Getting people to change their habits is just another impediment which is exactly why consortium like Ultra-e are pushing the sub 15min fillup in the first place.
So are Tesla mind you. V3 superchargers are going to start at 350kW when they come out. Until then Porche and ABB have beaten Tesla to market. But the real question is, who will be first to market with a car that can charge at that rate? The Mission E comes out in 2019.
Personally I take my time already anyway. Workplace safety drummed in my head to take a break every 2 hours and reset the brain, but the vast majority of people are waay to impatient for that.
20 years ago, I drove around southern Spain in a rented Peugeot 106 for two weeks. I ended up getting 22 km/l, which is 52 mpg (US). Plain gasoline engine, don't know if fuel injected or not. Five-speed manual, no AC.
I bet they can do even better now, since gas engines keep becoming more fuel-efficient.
Tell me what car you drive, please. I would like to buy one as I am in the market for a car
You can't give away Frog cars in America. Which is why they are all branded Nissan.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Getchur news here fans & fannies. One progressive stooge after another falls victim to low-temp lassooz as car milage swirls down-the-drain. It's coordinated ... like Loreta Lynchez fat-ankle shooz ... to bring max-cold to electro-perk lib.com driverz and bust California wild-cherry hyper-trains. Smoozit .
Laws of physics aren't just suggestions. 50 mpg requires the car to suck.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Neither the Volt nor the Prius will haul a cord of firewood. And both of them are shit off of paved roads.
Have gnu, will travel.
(the closest Costco where I once lived was a good 250 miles.)
That.. that's like an 8 hour drive (4 there, 4 back, assuming a constant 60 mph and rounding down to 240). That seems highly unusual to me.
On a circuit without a dedicated load, you do have to de-rate what you install, and that is because high draw appliances(vacuums) can be plugged in while other stuff is also plugged in. also for expansion at a later point.
I assume you meant how I changed it above? If so, then if I understand what you are saying, when putting in a new circuit you calculate the number of outlets that will be fed from it based on 80% load, to account for the occasional vacuum and so the homeowner can branch off an existing outlet without having to think too much about additional load?
This is classic whataboutism
Just like your post as well. How many kids died as a result of Europe's ideological warmongering?
And how many people will fit in there? How much cargo volume? Is it a small number that you make up for with speed so you can make multiple trips in the time it would take a big American gas-guzzler to make one?
He probably just watches AvE
No idea about the US but here in the UK meters are generally 240V/100A so even if you had to derate 20% there's plenty of capacity there.
1. Lithium is not a "rare earth".
But other metals required are. However "rare" earth just means they're in trace amounts relative to the abundance of other metals in the ground. That doesn't mean that there is any shortage of them whatsoever.
Just wait until the oil/gas infrastructure begins to crumble, and subsidies arn't enough to save it. It's not about if you like gas cars - it's about the availability of cheap gas; when that goes - then so do gas cars - like it or not.
Can't speak for the Prius, but the volt has a fairly decent amount of cargo space in the back given it's size. Easily enough for a big Costco run. Hauling cords of firewood around isn't really what it was intended to be good at. You could make the same argument regarding most other small sedans though.
That's why we have a volt and an F150. When we need to bring home two dozen bags of mulch from home depot we use the F150. When we need to bring kids to school we drive the volt. Each is capable of doing what the other can do, but not optimally. Choose the right tool for the job.
You are correct sir.
I don't care about most of this debate, but wonder what car you are talking about and which gallons. The UK gallon is about 1.2 US gallons, so a figure of 48 MPG in the UK would correspond roughly to 40 MPG in the US just based on the difference in fuel volume figures.
We had a 2010 Toyota Corrolla that could get around 37 MPG on the highway and once got about 40 MPG on a long trip with ideal weather conditions. I would place the Corrolla on the high-efficiency end of the spectrum here, not the median of the fleet. It is hard to imagine fleet averages getting all the way to 50 MPG here without a dramatic shift to plugin electric or some other alternative to conventional gasoline combustion. There just doesn't seem to be enough left to squeeze out of aerodynamics or rolling friction. Getting a more efficient, i.e. lean, burn out of gas engines seems to push them towards emissions problems like we saw the the whole diesel scandal. So, it's not likely the industry can go this way without some significant breakthroughs or some significant fraud and public harm.
Freezing standards makes industry less competitive. However, if you've a good deal from a foreign national offering a percent on cars sold, this would be the way to go.
Me, I'd look at what you'd need to scrap to make the X-Prize car street legal, then raise standards to the point things could still be reasonably safe.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It sounds to me more like you want to set your imaginary standard, where anything more sane than Fox is 'left wing'. And of course, if you're standing on the North pole, everything is south to you.
That's why we have a volt and an F150.
So, double the license fees and insurance. Put that together with punitive fuel taxes and you discourage poor people from living in California (or Washington, for that matter). We know who the liberals love.
My current Pruis (a 2017 model) has an overall actual mileage from the moment it drove off the dealer's log of 51.5 MPH over 30,000 miles of driving.
And it is a very nice car - I drove in a friend's Lexus (2017) recently, and it was remarkable how similar the experience was. The new electronics consoles were similar, and the seating was equally nice (though the Lexus had harder to maintain leather, inside of durable, easy to clean synthetic fabric). And it had worse mileage. It was twice as expensive, but only very slightly nicer.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
51.5 MPG of course.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
For the first 10-15 sec. Then it has to go into cool-down mode. Teslas are undeniably quick. But in a world where even trucks can approach 150mph if the tires are replaced with something appropriate to that speed, they're not particularly fast
But given that the highest posted highway speeds in the U.S. are 85 MPH in rural stretches in Texas, Nebraska and Wyoming, there is no advantage to approaching 150 MPH, unless you do racing on a private track as a hobby.
Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
While this may be a serious policy for the Trump administration, I don;t see how it will be enforced if there were to be a Democratic House, and or a Democratic President. I does not look like Trump has a good chance to win the 2020 election (if he even runs, or if he is even in the White House in '19)
In fact, with the recent announcement of Ford Abandoning the sedan market, it look like that market will look to hybrids and electric vehicles, which will be prone to meeting the standards and most likely exceeding them..
But before this can even be done, the Trump administration will have to justify the modification of the fuels standards through research,study and science, which the Trump administration just does not do, leading to its policies lying on the courtroom floor when challenged.
you clearly have not seen the garbage they have been putting out to meet these standers. or you buy a new car every 20,000 miles. as for ca its simple stop selling them cars until they fall in line trust me they wont hold out that long.
Number of people: 5.
Cargo volume: Far more than an american sedan because hatchbacks have a huge amount of space in them.
Multiple trips, can't say I'm not familiar with the concept. Last time I was at Ikea I took home a couch, massive wardrobe, kitchen table, study table, bookshelf, and 4 chairs, and 2 of those wardrobes known for killing toddlers when not installed correctly. Though that day my wife was unable to sit on the passenger seat and sat behind me instead, and I'm not sure I would have made it up to 180km/h while towing a trailer.
And if I ever need to transport a small car in an american gas-guzzler I would simply call a toe truck. I would be able to afford it with all the fuel I save normally.
But please tell me how much I am inconvenienced. I'm genuinely curious.
Deep discharging and full charging are hard on batteries
Fortunately there aren't any cars on the market that allow you to do either. Those ratings you hear manufacturers claim are actually quite nice on batteries.
The bottom line is that 100-mile EVs are really quite impractical
Two people at my work drive Twizzys. They have a 60 mile range and the batteries are on a leasing agreement so instantly nullify most of your complaints. Also the most popular EV in Europe with sales properly thrashing Tesla's have a 120mile range. That's NDEC by the way which when compared to the EPA ranges is considered wildly optimistic and you're unlikely to get more than 100miles out of that damn popular car.
Really it's only impractical for an American who measures penis length by car statistics.
Do you really want to sit for eight or ten hours straight without standing up or walking around?
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
Do you really want to sit for eight or ten hours straight without standing up or walking around?
What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't take that long to run down a Tesla at real live highway speeds, but more to the point, I'm just pissed off most of the time when I go out to eat. I can do better.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Note that the 50 MPG requirement is a CAFE standard rather than an EPA standard. The difference is substantial. 50 MPG under CAFE standards is closer to 37 MPG on the vehicle's sticker. Also note the requirements vary based on the vehicle's footprint. Large vehicles are held to a less stringent standard than small vehicles (although manufacturers have to meet a combined average requirement as well).
A number of popular passenger cars meet or exceed 37 highway MPG today such as the Honda Civic, Honda Accord, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Camry, Chevy Spark, Chevy Sonic, Chevy Cruze, Kia Rio, Nissan Versa, Nissan Sentra, Nissan Altima, Volkswagon Jetta, Hyundai Elantra, Hyundai Sonata, and Hyundai Accent. I haven't even touched on hybrid vehicles.
This has nothing to do with dedicated loads or inrush. I'm talking about continuous use derating (defined as being under load for more than three hours). Electric cars behave more like lighting in this regard, in that they can charge for many, many hours at a time. Thus, you have to treat them like continuous loads, not periodic loads.
It is possible to get breakers that are rated for continuous use at 100% of their rated load, but most household breakers are only rated for continuous use at 80% of their rated load. If you run those breakers at 50 amps continuous, you're going to trip the breaker before your car finishes charging. And either way, any wiring must be sized at 125% of the rated load for continuous use.
So when you say a 50 amp circuit, I automatically assume that you mean a standard 50 amp breaker that is derated to 80% for continuous duty use, rather than a specialty 100%-rated breaker, because in practice, that's what every Tesla charging installation that I've ever heard of uses. And I assume that the wiring was sized for 50 amps, rather than being sized for 62.5 amps as is required for a continuous 50 amp load.
If you want real fun, though, try using a Tesla on a 110V groundfault outlet. It turns out that some brands of groundfault outlet work fine, and some trip almost instantly during the Tesla's ground integrity check before charging even starts. Good times.
Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.
"primarily spodumene mines like these"
Those are located inside giant lepidolite pegmatites and dikes, and many of those were found to be using illegal labor, mostly coming out of Indonesia.
"Lithium can be extracted from lepidolite, but not much actually is."
That's because it has more value as a lapidary material despite the very high lithium concentrations within what is essentially a massed mica body.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
Laws of physics aren't just suggestions. 50 mpg requires the car to suck.
Tesla manufactures an 18-wheeler(!) that gets better than 50mpg (equivalent) and by all accounts it doesn't suck.
If that is possible using today's technology, there's no reason you couldn't scale it down (either as a pure electric or a hybrid) to the scale of any consumer-style vehicle on the market today.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Less than 5% are recycled, according to this article: A Look At The Lithium-Ion Battery Recycling Industry, and the lithium is indeed destroyed.
OTOH, the article also suggests that the economics involved may be leading to a surge in the recycling rates.
Unfortunate I can't charge the car overnight.
See, I live off grid...I work during the day and I get home just about when the sun goes down. There are no options for me to charge overnight...at very best all I can do is transfer power from one stack of batteries (the house) to another stack of batteries (the car). That ain't all that efficient.
I'd love an electric vehicle, but it's gonna have to work around me, not me work around it....
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
> With Trump, the US *has* decided to stop innovating
Credible citation needed.
Ferret
Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc
many of those were found to be using illegal labor
Can you provide a citation for this, please?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
The right way to do this would be instead to have pools drawn on different lines: personal vs business use. All cars and light trucks that are bought as personal transportation or light hauling (think pizza delivery and the like) could replace the current "car" grouping and be subject to one standard. Light trucks bought for business hauling (parcel delivery, farm work, construction work, and so on) would replace the current "light truck" category and be subject to a looser standard.
The point of this would be to eliminate the loophole of selling people vehicles that fall into a looser category as personal transportation. The auto industry would be forced not only to design more efficient vehicles, but might have to take measures to alter the mix of vehicles that they sell. If it takes subsidies to small cars and penalty pricing on SUVs to meet the fuel economy standards, so be it. If it requires companies to discontinue conventional gas-powered cars and move completely to hybrids and electric cars, that's great too.
Some people who favor stricter fuel economies are quick to explain that they don't want to take away your SUVs. I'm not one of those people. I DO want to take away your stupid wasteful SUVs that are used to carry one person and never leaves the road. Deal with it.
You could buy a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt, which would allow you to live 200 miles away. (Though the dealership issue is moot for the Tesla anyway.) More EVs with 200+ mile range are coming in the future.
There will still be people for whom EV ownership is not practical. Plug-in hybrids, on the other hand, will work just fine for them.
Taxi and transit use? Most urban vehicles of that type are driven less than 100 miles per day. They'll go with more battery anyway, to make sure they don't run out and to cover energy use for climate control. Still feasible. Electric buses already exist, though nearly all of them are being used in China. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...