H-1B Visa Alternative 'OPT' Grew 400 Percent In Eight Years, Report Finds

theodp writes: Almost 1.5 million foreign students have been allowed to stay and work in the U.S. after graduation as part of the Optional Practical Training (OPT) program, which is now larger than the controversial H-1B program (Warning: source may be paywalled; alternative source). According to new Pew Research analysis of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement data obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, the number of students authorized to work under OPT has grown 400% since the federal government in 2008 increased the amount of time graduates with science, technology, engineering and math (STEM) degrees could remain in the United States and work. More than half of those working under OPT from 2004 to 2016 were in STEM fields, Pew found, and as a result, were eligible for the so-called STEM extension.

The OPT program added a 17-month STEM extension in 2008, shortly after Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates suggested it in testimony to Congress after complaining that the cap for the H-1B program had caused a serious disruption in the flow of talented STEM graduates to U.S. companies. In 2016, another 12-month extension was added after a Federal judge threatened to torpedo the STEM extension program, saying it "appears to have been adopted directly from the unanimous suggestions by Microsoft and similar industry groups." In its Top Ten Tech Issues for 2018, Microsoft expressed "concern that in 2018 the White House will announce a rollback of the extended period of Optional Practical Training for STEM graduates." Pew also took note of allegations that "visa mills" have sprung up in response to demand driven by the OPT program.

Comments

I've been wondering why it is

[rsilvergun]

that I see tech almost completely dominated by people here on work visas, to the point where companies have completely shut down their training departments because they don't have to train anymore. There's not enough H1-Bs to fill that many positions. The program is big and corrupt but not that big and corrupt.

Thing is, I don't see anything changing. Folks voted for Trump because he said he'd stop all this crap, and now he supports TPP, DACA, and literally told his supporters he wanted workers to come in and do your jobs. Meanwhile Bernie Sanders, the one politician who could have put the brakes on this crap, couldn't even get enough support to overcome a little back stabbing from his party (which let's remember Trump easily did).

What we need is folks to stop giving a crap about pointless shit (Guns, Abortion, Gay Marriage, you know, wedge issues) and pay attention to the economy. But good luck with that.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Bernie would have done the same. Much of the Trump Administration is Bush people. Much of Bernie's would have been Obama and Clinton people. Trump is relatively hostile to tech CEOs wanting to expand immigration. Obama's administration had weekly meetings with their lobbyists.
We can't expect big tech to educate our workforce. The school systems have to do it. They spend too much time teaching liberal arts and then rationalizing it without stories of how lawyers and doctors started out in liberal arts. Coders don't need all that crap. They don't even need degrees. What they do need is a good system of coding trade schools that can get students good at writing in C and Python. They can get culture on the weekends while browsing all the free college classes posted online. The first priority of our schools should be training a capable workforce.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Try getting any original thinking out of the foreign programmers. They do exactly as instructed and no more.They won't tell you that you asked them to code the wrong thing like an American. As an added bonus, when they go back home to India or China, they'll take your intellectual property with them. There's almost no way to enforce any of America's expansive I.P. theft prohibitions in their home countries.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[rmdingler]

Bernie would have done the same. Much of the Trump Administration is Bush people. Much of Bernie's would have been Obama and Clinton people. Trump is relatively hostile to tech CEOs wanting to expand immigration. Obama's administration had weekly meetings with their lobbyists.

Interesting. It sounds like you're saying the Presidential election is but a spoof of democracy that rather falsely reassures the electorate that they're actually in charge of who runs the government. If that's true, the people who really hold the power control the bureaucrats, rather than the elected officials... makes sense, since appointment might be easier to control than election.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[geoskd]

What we need is folks to stop giving a crap about pointless shit (Guns, Abortion, Gay Marriage, you know, wedge issues) and pay attention to the economy. But good luck with that.

While I do agree with most of your post, I strongly disagree that the second amendment is "pointless shit".

I don't own any guns (unless you count paintball, and even then, none that work), but I will never vote for any politician that interferes with the right to own a gun. I don't even much care for gun regulation. I consider it our right (and responsibility unless you have a good reason otherwise, like an autistic child) to own a gun and be prepared to use it in defense of our Constitution (notice I didn't say government). Our founding fathers foresaw a day when this country would get so thoroughly borked that even with democratic norms, it might become necessary to defend our rights against tyranny using the method of last resort. Without the right to bear arms (and by arms, I include military grade weapons), we cannot hope to enforce any of our other rights. The right to bear arms is not about hunting, or sport, or even personal freedoms, it is about our ability to enforce our authority over our government. The only thing that stops a tyrant from declaring themselves dictator for life is the fact that an armed mob will bring that tyrant to justice and restore our rights.

The one gun regulation I can fully support would be a requirement to have 3 people cosign when a person buys a gun. This will help to ensure that any gun nut has to have at least three people who think they are responsible enough to have a gun. That one regulation would have prevented nearly every mass shooting in this country, and would not have interfered with anyone elses right to bear arms. No need for permits, or any other kind of government interference.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is folks to stop giving a crap about pointless shit (Guns, Abortion, Gay Marriage, you know, wedge issues) and pay attention to the economy. But good luck with that.

The religious right seems perfectly okay with the Faustian bargain of ignoring Trump's complete lack of ethics if he puts in their judges and they are hardly the only ones ready willing and able to make Faustian bargains.

As far as the economy goes, that is only one issue as well. It must be balanced among all other issues. That if anything is the key, and that is where the religious right is well wrong. Choosing to elevate one issue or a very few above every other issue is, in general, a bad thing.

Overall Trump is just not a good person. He is about as bad as you can get morally without being in jail. (Certainly a lot of better people are in jail for a lot less.) His birthirism crap was the beginning of a new low in American politics. It was, simply put, an attempt to destroy the first african american president by labelling him falsely as "other". It's also the same thing he did with mexicans and such when he first ran. I just don't believe anything but ruin comes from the rights embrace of such a person. The president should be the best of us.

The Faustian bargain made with Trump and those who support him is not going to end well. The only mitigation we have is Trump cares about so little, that he does less damage. What about the next one that has darker plans?

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

You say that like the only foreigners working in the field are Indians and Chinese.

There's a lot of people from European countries, Australia, etc. that work in software and from my experience they're generally more capable than the average American programmer.

Evidence that backs this up are figures from the government that show that Australians in the US are right near the top of the programmer income ladder.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[fluffernutter]

Trump is relatively hostile outwardly. Of course he is, his platform is all about sticking up for the domestic worker. Until he does something that actually results in a noticeable difference, you cannot assume he wants to do anything about it.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Could you hire an Indian to make apostrophes work correctly in Slashdot comments?

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[fluffernutter]

and responsibility unless you have a good reason otherwise, like an autistic child

Replace that with "unless you have a good reason otherwise, like someone who is going to plan a mass killing" and you have what most people actually want. I don't care if perfectly well people who respect guns and keep them locked up to prevent misuse have guns, but the problem is you can't know who these people are. So keeping guns away from a mass killer (or an autistic child) actually amounts to reducing gun access for everyone. Sorry, but since we don't want the police in all our homes snooping on people, it is the only way to begin to solve the problem.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

The corp I work for (Fortune 50 listed) has an office in Curryland (India) and the place entire place is a shit show. 60% turnover in 24 months. The longest national to work there is 5 years because he's the manager and they pay him stupid amounts of money to put up with the local's bullshit. The manager is American and he likens his job to herding autistic cats.

The code they produce is ok.. not stellar, just do what they are told and could EASILY be done by a just out of Uni grad. The problem is that code isn't the issue. Knowing the ecosystem is.. that takes time to develop.. but the locals jump ship (again 60%+ turnover and that's average) because they want a job with a company that has the POSSIBILITY of a visa to the US. Our corp simply doesn't do visa's.. so they use us as a stepping stone. Don't fool yourself for one second that every Indian in India would eat a cow if it meant coming to the US.

The H-1B visa is a carrot used to get the smart foreign talent. They are generally not that good, but bottom line is that they are CHEAP and *good enough*. Plus you can send them back in a year or two and not have to deal with long term salary/benefits. A dev with 15+ years experience is significantly more expansive than an H-1B monkey.

Increase the price of the visa and require that visa applicants get paid the same a native counterparts... you'll see H-1B workers dry up in a second.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

And what problem is that? Despite what you're spoodfed from the media, statistics show that a) gun violence is on the decline, and b) an increase in gun ownership directly correlates to reduced violent crime.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

that I see tech almost completely dominated by people here on work visas

The US government has one and only one aim --- they are encouraging the Chinese student to stay and learn US advanced technologies so that they could bring those advanced technologies back home, to China

That way, China can grow stronger, strong enough to become US's next nemesis

After all, USA doesn't spend trillions on its nukes for nothing. They want to bomb somebody and China happens to be the current favorite bogeyman

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

That's the only regulation you support? So, a known gang member, after getting out of prison for murder, should have zero problem going and buying 100+ fully automatic weapons? You said "one gun regulation", so that means that anything below self-propelled rounds is good to go. Now, from the viewpoint of "protection against tyranny", that might be a good idea. I'm sure a gang member could find three other members to sign for him. Or someone who is mentally ill, hears voices, thinks many people are "out to kill them", etc. No regulations against domestic abusers, violent felons, etc! Just find three other felons to sign for you!

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[l0n3s0m3phr34k]

It seems it's more of a problem of the "mass killers" getting ahold of someone else's guns.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

Bernie was so weak he let Hillary rip him off and then didn't even stick it to her on it.

The system is big and corrupt... whomever you put out there to fix it is going to have balls of fucking steel.

Like or dislike Trump, he at least has that quality.

Bernie doesn't. He got completely cheated by Hillary and didn't do anything about it. He should have ripped her head off for that. But instead he meekly accepted it.

You like Bernie's policies? Fine. But get someone that can actually seal the deal. Bernie is old, tired, and was never really politically crafty enough to be the man he said he was. He's a senator from Vermont, my dood. He has been a joke in the senate even amongst his allies for most of his career. This is not the man you hand the basket with all your eggs in them. He can't protect them.

Whatever you think of Trump as a man or his policies, you can see he's got guts. You can see he is walks into fire... surrounded by people trying to take him down and he stands tall. You might find that annoying because you want him to go down. Fine. But he doesn't.

I'm not saying support trump. I'm saying find someone that is strong like him. Because the presidency has increasingly become an elected emperor. The separation of powers is greatly weakened. The powers of the states are eroded to the federal government all the time. All that power flows to the Federal Executive.

I'd personally like for the presidency to be a lot less powerful. But no one agrees with me apparently. So the presidency is going to get more and more powerful. And if you want your vote to mean anything and for the president to not just be controlled by shadowy forces that didn't run for election... then you want the president to be very strong. You want someone in power that knows he has to fight for the power by taking down people in the executive that were NOT elected that would presume to take his power for themselves.

Bernie is not that man. Bernie is failure. Again, remember what he did when Hillary fucked him in the primary? The DNC was literally biased against him contrary to the bylaws of the institution. They broke the rules to screw Bernie. And what did he do? He sucked it up like a gimp.

That is your champion? Get a better hero.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

While income may be an indicator of competence in some areas, this is certainly not the case here. You canâ(TM)t compare an Australian with a Chinese or Indian worker for the simple reason that the latter risk a lot more if they loose their visa status. They will just shut up and avoid complaining, asking for pay rises or changing employers (which they they canâ(TM)t). The former doesnâ(TM)t really care, at worst he may have to go back to Australia (though highly unlikely), where his life style and standard of living will hardly differ from what he has in the US. He is more likely to ask for a raise or change employers. I am not saying there is no difference in competence, just that the salary isnâ(TM)t a reliable indicator in this case.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

What you describe pretty much resembles slavery. At the same time, it lowers the overall wages of programmers in the US by increasing supply. The slave owners get cheap slaves they can use and replace without fear of them asking for benefits or even going to the competition. They also get a means of keeping the salaries of US developers as low as possible by saturating the market with cheap slave labor. Free market my ass.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Indians donâ(TM)t use apple products - too expensive. And apostrophes seem to be an issue only on iPhones or iPads (and maybe other Safari engine browsers too). Am I missing something?

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[magzteel]

The HR people and hiring managers I've spoken to tell me the climate regarding hiring H1-B's has shifted dramatically. The are very concerned about the increased scrutiny from the government to justify the hires and as a result they are looking elsewhere.

Even infosys is shifting work from visa holders to Americans. Apparently it is possible to find local talent when necessary.
https://www.hrdive.com/news/in...

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

So you are blaming Bernie for having dignity and praising Trump for having none of it ? See, that is exactly the reason why the government doesnâ(TM)t seem to be working in the interest of the people - if only aggressive bigots are able to pass the partyâ(TM)s filters, you get aggressive bigots with zero convictions and moral values for presidents. At best, they can try to hide it behind a politically correct cover (democrats) or be overt and just donâ(TM)t give a damn (republicans). But the results are the same. Thatâ(TM)s what you get when the only choice is between ignorant aggression and superficial political correctness.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Reverend Green]

The attitude displayed by this troll is a major cause of all the security breaches we keep seeing.

He pays peanuts, and he absolutely DOES NOT CARE that he is getting monkeys. He profits, and society picks up the bill.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Trump is extremely easy to manipulate. With such an extreme narcissistic profile, he can be made to do anything and everything, as long as he can take all the praise for himself and brag about it on Twitter.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Bernie did not have dignity. There is a reason he bought a new house after he lost. He was richly paid off by the DNC to tell his voters he lost and to vote for Hillary.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

which is why everyone just gets whatever they want from him...

Right? That's why the establishment republicans love him.

Oh wait, they hate him because you're wrong... damn.

Make a new theory.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet advertised pay rates haven't gone up in 15 years...

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[q_e_t]

Why would all foreign programmers be from China or India? I know several that currently are, or have been,so employed in the USA who are from the UK.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

you're trying to spin him submitting to corruption and fraud as dignity...

Good Game.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[q_e_t]

That all sounds more like issues of management rather than location. If the code required is boilerplate, for example, then you are going to get high turnover as people look for more interesting and better paid work, and that applies in the USA. If the code required is boilerplate, does the turnover matter?

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Singing the US national anthem every morning ensures children will care.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Reverend Green]

I like asparagus and avocados!

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[serviscope_minor]

couldn't even get enough support to overcome a little back stabbing from his party (which let's remember Trump easily did).

It wasn't his party. He has always been an independent. It's not terribly surprising that switching allegience for 5 minutes to Democrat just so he could run as president with a party didn't convince the Democrat party members.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

I could hire an Indian for half whatever you want...

You really want to trust you family's (medical) life on programming skills that
are bred in a culture of normalcy where people can just poop on the street?
That are not motivated by a sense of pride and doing-things-right, whose
certificate of skill was purchased by a bribe? I'm not making this stuff up; it's
well documented how these people operate.

Mr. Gates, please don't post such nonsense to /. any longer.

CAP === 'flogging'

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[zifn4b]

that I see tech almost completely dominated by people here on work visas, to the point where companies have completely shut down their training departments because they don't have to train anymore. There's not enough H1-Bs to fill that many positions. The program is big and corrupt but not that big and corrupt.

It's simple: Companies don't want to pay a fair wage. They want to maximize profits and cutting costs (wages) is a way to do that. Self employment is looking more attractive all the time.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[zifn4b]

The HR people and hiring managers I've spoken to tell me the climate regarding hiring H1-B's has shifted dramatically. The are very concerned about the increased scrutiny from the government to justify the hires and as a result they are looking elsewhere.

Correct, now it's a better bargain to hire kids straight out of college.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

Right? That's why the establishment republicans love him.
Oh wait, they hate him because you're wrong... damn.
Make a new theory.

They say they hate him, but they're lying. They lie all the time, we already knew they were liars. And the Republicans fucking adore Trump. They love him all day. Everything he's doing is stuff they would have loved to have done long ago, but couldn't get away with. Trump, however, can get away with anything and his supporters will keep supporting him because he is a cult of personality.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

which is why they're assisting his programs instead of frustrating them...

oh wait, they're frequently frustrating them...

Let us cut to the chase, what evidence would be needed to cause you to concede you were in error here? Just hypothetically.

Because if "nothing" then your position is not based on reality.

Cite something... and then it will be on me to provide it... assuming what you cite is even relevant. :-)

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

It wasn't his party. He has always been an independent. It's not terribly surprising that switching allegience for 5 minutes to Democrat just so he could run as president with a party didn't convince the Democrat party members.

Uh, no. He DID convince the Democrat party members. The polls clearly showed that Democrats wanted to vote for Sanders. He failed to convince the Democrat party committee. They subverted the democratic process, ran a candidate the polls said could not beat Trump, and lost the election. They could not have thrown the election any more effectively if they tried.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

Let us cut to the chase, what evidence would be needed to cause you to concede you were in error here? Just hypothetically.

Republicans must lead an effort to impeach Trump.

Yep, that's a high bar. But I have high standards, unlike Republicans.

Everything Trump has actually accomplished is something Republicans have been trying to achieve for years, or in some cases decades. (Note that several "accomplishments" on that list are not actually accomplishments or even things which have happened; for example "cutting government waste" while he has several cabinet members appearing before congress for frankly outrageous misuse of taxpayer funds, or "Defeating the Islamic State", which also has not happened.) Republicans might personally dislike Trump, but they are fully behind his actions. They are acting like they aren't in order to save face; at the end of all this they can say "he wasn't our candidate, but we had to work with him".

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Name the last president we've had either a) well known for his ethics or b) an unethical shithead that wasn't supported blindly by his own party.

I'll help you out: Richard Nixon was chased from office by his own party. The DNC otoh never saw a leftist they didn't like.

Ethics? My ass.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[serviscope_minor]

Uh, no. He DID convince the Democrat party members.

No he didn't.

The polls clearly showed that Democrats wanted to vote for Sanders.

Except they didn't vote for him in the primaries.

They subverted the democratic process

By usin the normal mechanisms rather than going off opinion pieces based on internet polls.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

No, your standard is irrelevant. You don't need to impeach a politician to prove you are against them. Republicans opposed Obama and didn't try to impeach him.

Set a reasonable standard or you're basically conceding that your position is so weak that you have to use an unreasonable standard to protect your position.

There are a huge number of federal offices left unfilled at the moment largely because congress is dragging its feet on confirmations. The republicans have the majority in both houses so that makes no sense.

Unless I'm right and you're wrong. Which is obviously the case and your unreasonable standard effectively confesses to the point.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

No, your standard is irrelevant. You don't need to impeach a politician to prove you are against them.

They keep saying they're against what he's doing, and what he's doing is illegal so the correct thing to do is impeach him, but they're not doing that. QED, they're not against what he's doing.

There are a huge number of federal offices left unfilled at the moment largely because congress is dragging its feet on confirmations. The republicans have the majority in both houses so that makes no sense.

Your failure is lack of imagination, and it frankly doesn't take that much to figure this out so that's particularly pathetic. They don't want to confirm people that are just going to lead to scandal and subsequent removal because that makes them look like the party of fuckups that they are, and Trump's picks are so bad that even as picky as they're being, they're still failing!

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

Except they didn't vote for him in the primaries.

The DNC spoiled for Hillary every step of the way. What would the vote have looked like if they didn't do that? The polls said that Clinton couldn't beat Trump. The polls said that Sanders could. What if the DNC had embraced leftist ideals, and actually supported Sanders? Some 10% of Sanders supporters ended up voting for Trump. These are people who want change, and imagined that they would get it from Trump. That's dumb, sure. Any change Trump produces will be for the worse for anyone but him, and his ilk — career criminals, con men who profit from taking advantage of the weaknesses of others.

The DNC knew that Hillary couldn't win, and supported her anyway. At best, they're partisan to the bitter end. At worst, they literally threw the election. I don't know or care which, frankly; the remedy is the same either way. Repair or replace as needed.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[turp182]

The wedge issues keep the two party system alive.

A little back stabbing for Bernie? When your party is "behind the scenes" completely against you, one cannot win.

Regarding changes of support for things, Presidents always become centrists to some degree. The two party system enforces this.

And the two parties have billions upon billions of dollars (unlimited at this point, Supreme Court fail), they will continue to win unopposed at the levels that really matter.

Trump is an outlier for sure. But Hillary shouldn't have been nominated. Choosing between two very bad things isn't really a choice. It's like asking the prisoner: How would you like to die?

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

... you really don't see it.

Okay, lets try again.

Let us say you were a flat earther... for the sake of argument... and I asked you "what would it take to prove that the world isn't flat"...

And you responded "I personally have to go into a rocket ship and see the round earth from the moon."

That's basically what you just did there. You set an unreasonable standard so that even if your dumb idea is dumb and easily proven wrong... I can't meet your standard because its so fucking unreasonable.

So okay... that flat earther's mind is closed to contradiction or evidence. He's telling me that he's not making evidence based decisions and is instead irrationally married to an idea that can't be reasonable disproven do mostly to that individual sticking their fingers in their ears and singing.

Now that example addressed... look at what you're doing. Can you see it?

Or are you going to double down?

If you're doubling down... I tried. Some people are too mulish to be reasoned with.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

And you responded "I personally have to go into a rocket ship and see the round earth from the moon."

Actually, it's more like "I want to see a picture from a rocket ship". I don't need to go to Congress and see them personally. I just need them to do their fucking jobs. If that's too much to ask, then it's too much to ask that I take them at their words.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[thegarbz]

This will help to ensure that any gun nut has to have at least three people who think they are responsible enough to have a gun.

Are you suggesting that a gun nut can't find 3 other gun nuts in the city? This is the single most pointless restriction I have ever heard of. Most {insert any topic here} nut put themselves in an echo chamber of like minded nuts, surrounded by nuts of the same kind. If all you need to perpetuate nuttiness is for a nut to know a few other nuts then all you have made is pointless paperwork.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[wonkavader]

No, more like indentured servitude. But it does indeed suck for the workers involved.

I very much agree that we should make H-1Bs much more expensive. We should be bringing rock stars from other countries, not drones. But I also think we should be increasing the rights/protections of the H-1B workers.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the globalists hate to pay sufficient wages. What they want is a helpless world citizen they can exploit to the max. So they have their propaganda operatives drum for that.

And of course they hate Trump, because he works to protect American workers.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, resistance to bankster rule is futile. Hail MONEY!

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[serviscope_minor]

The DNC spoiled for Hillary every step of the way.

The died in the wool Democrats prefered a Democrat to some rando wo signed up just for the election.

The polls said that Clinton couldn't beat Trump.

I remember different polls from the election cycle.

What if the DNC had embraced leftist ideals, and actually supported Sanders? ... so some rando who doesn't have remotely the same poltical affiliation either. The Democrat is on the right end of centre right, not left.

Some 10% of Sanders supporters ended up voting for Trump

No accounting for idiots, I guess!

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[fluffernutter]

To put it bluntly you are full of shit.

https://www.worldatlas.com/art... https://qz.com/437015/mapped-t...

In order of states with most gun ownership: Wyoming, 40th most violent (admittedly, not bad but by your reasoning should be 50). Montana, 26th most violent. Alaska, MOST VIOLENT (are they giving these people bullets?). South Dakota, 19th most violent. Arkansas, 6th most violent. West Virginia, 27th most violent.

Top five states and your theory already falls apart. These are far from the safest states.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[fluffernutter]

The Florida shooter, his own guns. Las Vegas, his own guns. Do we really need to look any further into this?

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, drinkypoo, you're wasting your time with Karmashock too, he's such an ideologue that you can get him to invert his positions entirely based on who you represent is taking them.

Notice how he specifically asked for your standard, then claimed it was irrelevant when you offered the very meaningful method the Republicans could use to substantiate their position.

His comparison, is offering a false contrivance, with no real equivalence to it, but amusingly, it reminds me of the orangutan from Futurama who kept objecting to lack of links between homidid ancestors despite Professor Farnsworth supplying a multitude.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[magzteel]

The HR people and hiring managers I've spoken to tell me the climate regarding hiring H1-B's has shifted dramatically. The are very concerned about the increased scrutiny from the government to justify the hires and as a result they are looking elsewhere.

Correct, now it's a better bargain to hire kids straight out of college.

Check out this video where an immigration lawyer is whining about the increased requests for evidence and denials. She even acknowledges that lack of specialized skills is justification to deny a petition.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[drinkypoo]

The DNC spoiled for Hillary every step of the way.

The died in the wool

That's dyed.

Democrats prefered a Democrat to some rando wo signed up just for the election.

The Democratic party prefers a centrist to a leftist, you mean.

The polls said that Clinton couldn't beat Trump.

I remember different polls from the election cycle.

Well, remember more carefully. The polls showed Clinton to win early, but as the election wore on, they shifted. The DNC assumed that Clinton could win, just like Clinton did (and then failed to campaign in key states.) But they always showed that Sanders could beat Trump.

What if the DNC had embraced leftist ideals, and actually supported Sanders?

... so some rando who doesn't have remotely the same poltical affiliation either. The Democrat is on the right end of centre right, not left.

People don't want centrism. If the DNC pushes centrism, it will fail again and again. Centrism has only led us further down the spiral.

Some 10% of Sanders supporters ended up voting for Trump

No accounting for idiots, I guess!

There is accounting for idiots, and if the DNC hadn't ignored the many voices clearly visible in social media loudly stating that they would rather vote for Trump than Clinton, they have only themselves to blame. But registered Democrats have only themselves to blame for supporting the DNC. The lesser of evils is still evil.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[serviscope_minor]

That's dyed.

It is indeed, my bad.

Well, remember more carefully. The polls showed Clinton to win early, but as the election wore on, they shifted. The DNC assumed that Clinton could win, just like Clinton did (and then failed to campaign in key states.) But they always showed that Sanders could beat Trump.

Well, not exactly, there are polls that showed Hillary winning. And none of the later polls (after he dropped out) involved Sanders either. And as we both know, polls are something of an er inexact art.

People don't want centrism. If the DNC pushes centrism, it will fail again and again. Centrism has only led us further down the spiral.

But the DNC doesn't represent the people, like any party it represents its members.

There is accounting for idiots, and if the DNC hadn't ignored the many voices clearly visible in social media loudly stating that they would rather vote for Trump than Clinton,

Social media only tells you about noisy people on social media.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I confirm it. I recently nursed two FI had done1/OPT to H1B. And I have just hired an MS and a PhD under F1/OPT. Going to do H1B. Compared to all the previous ones this time the scrutiny is pretty tight.

If they had been this strict all these years H1B program will not be bad. We hire only US Masters/PhDs. We follow both the letter and the spirit of the law. The additional scrutiny is welcome.

IT was the Indian IT companies who used Indian diploma mills that made a mockery of the law and gamed the system, to death hopefully.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[squiggleslash]

Look, I hate to break it to you, but Bernie only did well in the caucuses, which were the least democratic part of the primaries. I'd have liked Bernie to do better too (and, while I'm not an eye-swiveling loon who believes the Clinton conspiracy of the week - anyone who doesn't think she's been the victim of a 25 year smear campaign is delusional, the fact is I didn't like Clinton, she was right wing and far too obsessed with getting the establishment to like her), but the fact is America wasn't ready to elect a self-described socialist. Not even the half of America that's to the left of the other half.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[lgw]

No, it's clear you'll take any possible excuse to take away other people's guns. No need to look further into your motivations.

Every freedom has a cost. Freedom is worth it.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

What we need is folks to stop giving a crap about pointless shit (Guns, Abortion, Gay Marriage, you know, wedge issues)

That's what Putin wants you to think!

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[datavirtue]

Slaves are usually willing....Im with Kanye on this one

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Karmashock]

Impeaching a president from your own party is the only standard of opposition you accept.

Never mind that Democrats didn't try to impeach Bush and Republicans didn't try to impeach obama despite them being against the policies of both.

Your standard is obviously and even by your own admission... irrational. We have many examples of people and parties being against policies and sitting presidents without pushing impeachment. In fact that is the standard state of affairs.

This much is obvious and that you set the bar where you did was actually my prediction from the beginning. You did exactly what I thought you'd do.

Your position is ultimately not evidence or reality based. Its just a mindless ideological attachment. You're a drone. And like most drones you don't realize it. ;-)

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[lgw]

People don't want centrism. If the DNC pushes centrism, it will fail again and again. Centrism has only led us further down the spiral.

That's a fundamental misunderstanding of US politics. The 70% of Americans who are politically disinterested are centrists and want centrism. That's the vast crowd who never participates in political discussions online.

What people increasingly don't want is the establishment. The 70% of politicians who blatantly don't care about voters, and sell them out to corporate donors, and never seem to fix any of the day-to-day problems that it seems the government should fix.

You'll notice that, since the mid-90s at least, national elections have been strongly anti-incumbent. We keep trying to "throw the bums out" over and over again. America has not been surging strongly to the left for 6 years, then strongly to the right for 6 years, then back and forth again. We've just been voting the bastards out. Beria and Trump both appeal strongly to voters who increasingly sense that the establishment just doesn't care about them.

People (mostly) don't vote for Trump because he's a boorish ass, but instead they are so disillusioned they're willing to accept that to get some chance of real change. People (mostly) don't vote for Bernie because he's a socialist, but instead they are so disillusioned they're willing to accept that to get some chance of real change. A candidate who could somehow show he was strongly anti-establishment without being a fringe weirdo would win in a landslide - but how would you manage that?

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling India Curryland is as ignorant as say calling America as Slaveryland.
You frustrated white nerds need to get out more, meet people from other countries and generally get the ignorant racism out of your system.
There is more to this world than is dreamt of in your philosophy.
Just look up Indian history and culture on the internet and first educate yourself before developing hateful thoughts about an entire nation you know nothing about.

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

"far too obsessed with getting the establishment to like her"

WTF? She _was_ the establishment. If she was sucking up to anyone, it was to the left of her.

Re: I've been wondering why it is

[Anonymous Coward]

[QUOTE]If the code required is boilerplate, for example, then you are going to get high turnover as people look for more interesting and better paid work.[/QUOTE]

There are issues of IP protection but, more importantly, most of those workers are not even remotely qualified enough to do more challenging, interesting work. If those crappy developers can't even do good work on boilerplate work, how can they possibly expect to be able to develop something more interesting that requires the capability for free thinking?

Re:I've been wondering why it is

[eric_harris_76]

Oh, my God! People coming to America to work!

When will the horror end? This dreadful, unprecedented horror!

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=railroad+irish.immigrant

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=railroad+chinese.immigrant

Governemnt helping big tech companies

[oldgraybeard]

force down wages of their technical workers. I love the whining that they can not find workers. Truth is they can not find workers willing to work under their terms and conditions for the amount of money they want to pay.
I really struggle to believe there is a shortage of workers in STEM in the US at all. I really think this is all about forcing down wages.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[AHuxley]

It winning for so many people. Everyone but the US tech worker is winning.
It keeps unions down in the USA. Thats great for the brand and its wealth.
Nations send their best to the USA so their own workforces don't have a few of their best every generation working for the US brands.
That allows the US to stay super competitive in some strange way? By removing the best from other nations and getting them to work in USA?
Lawyers help US brands place the international workers and ensure the US gov accepts the reasons for needing generations of workers from out side the USA.

The workers return to their own nations to spread the good news about the USA and their decades of work in the USA.
Graduates all over the USA have do without jobs so the US gov can present working in the USA as a good thing globally?
Some might return to their own nations years later as spies for the USA. Wanting to bring democracy to their own nations.
Jobs in the CIA to see who will spy for the USA back in their own nation after enjoying years of working in US so much?

Big US brands get to keep total control over their international workers as they cant speak to conditions and wages without risking their ability to stay in the US.
For all that the average US worker has to give up their job and expensive education so some brand can have bring in international workers every decade.
All that effort should have gone into US education, vocational education and scholarships. Within a few years the US could have had all the skilled workers in needed generations ago.

Why pay to look after another nations average tech workers in the USA every year? Educate US citizens for well paying local jobs.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

This really about American tech workers thinking they're worth more than they are, and demanding more pay because... well, because they're American, I guess is what I get out of it. Rather than competing with equal or superior talent that happen to hail from another part of the globe. These protectionist ideas must end. If there's someone willing to do your job cheaper than you do it, you need to examine your perceived value rationale and really question just how you're helping America compete in a global marketplace if our companies have to artificially support an inflated lifestyle for people just because they 'know computerz'. That used to be a scarce and valuable skill. It's not anymore. Protectionism never works.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[AHuxley]

If a brand wants it done cheaper, move the brand to that low cost nation AC.
Let that nation attract brands with the low cost workers, no taxes and engineering skills.
Why pay to bring low cost workers to the US to take jobs in the USA?

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Ayano]

On the other side, as someone hiring engineers. I'm not going to sugar coat that many of the 'all-american' graduates don't have as strong a grasp on mathematics as the foreign graduates. The interview questions show this glaringly, do you want to lower the bar to fill quotas?

When I'm looking for team members I care about what they're able to do and we pay our American and H1B workers the same salary (just north of 100k). So payment is not the issue as you like to claim. In shortages employees have more bargaining power absolutely and retaining skilled workers is difficult. This does not need to be artificially inflated by causing a deliberate brain shortage unless you're willing to admit sub-par engineers whom are more interested in Tinder and quick library re-use rather than the hard algorithmic nuances of the work we do.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a shortage of workers. Ever stop to think why companies like Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, etc. are offering packages >$200k for mid-level programmers?

My wife is a recruiter at one of those big firms and she says that they are offering senior programmers >$400k packages these days and she knows that one of those other firms offers more because she's had a few candidates turn down her offers for that firm.

It's not because the cost of living in the Bay Area is high, it's because there's a genuine shortage of skilled people.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[fluffernutter]

I think cars are too expensive. Who are these car manufacturers that think they are worth more than they are?

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[AmiMoJo]

In that case the sensible thing to do is make sure migrant workers get paid more than local ones. Then they are available to companies that really need them, and wages are not forced down.

As a migrant worker that's what I expect. Maybe the same wage as locals, but also up front cash for relocation.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[molarmass192]

The FAANGs hire a tiny fraction of a percent of the people who apply there. There's no shortage of skilled people. There is may be a shortage of people who can pass their filters and interviews, but shortage of CS grads? No, absolutely not. If the FAANGs hired everybody who applied and still needed more people, then it would be a shortage. When you can afford to be so selective as to turn away 99.9% of the people who apply to your company, then you're facing anything but a shortage. Now, if you're looking for a senior engineer under 30 with 20 years experience in machine learning, 3 published works, and at least 4 patents to their name, you're going to pay through the nose. Complaining there's a shortage of Bugatti Veyrons available to buy for your car pool service is pretty disingenuous when there is a virtually unlimited supply of Chrysler Minivans that could absolutely do the job that needs to be done.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[nnull]

As someone that hires engineers as well, this is the same situation I run into. I do find a lot of American engineers absolutely sub-par. Many schools in the US have lowered the bar, because they're not any where near the caliber from the generation before them.

But there are many companies that abuse H1B's to absurd levels, my neighbor is a prime example of this, so it does happen, and quite often. So much so, it has depressed my area that it makes it now impossible to hire people even remotely qualified because everyone worthwhile has left and cannot afford to live here anymore. It's making it increasingly difficult for me now more than ever when I'm moving forward towards a "Lights Out" facility. Many skilled people are just basically gone, foreign or not.

It's definitely a whole mix of things causing this, politics included.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Been to silicon valley? It's actually its really hard to find qualified workers, and we do need visa workers.

Starting salaries are like 140k, getting paid 200k is easy and you can get up to 500k if you work your way up after a few years. It's really easy to make a fortune here in a 9-5 job, because there's such a huge skilled worker shortage.

That said, we shouldn't flood the country with visa workers, because it means our 500k salaries WILL come down eventually, and I sure as hell don't want to lose my salary.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[rtb61]

It called, quite simply, compulsory regulated training programs. Simply laws that force companies over a certain size to spend money on training. Employing local students and paying them through college, not a request but a legal regulated demand.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

So you propose to end slavery by getting more for less from the slaves ? How about removing restrictions so they can switch employers if they want, without risking expulsion from the country? You know, the free market that the US is trumping around the world as being the most universal human value. By removing the chains from the slaves you will get the market to adjust the wages upwards, as you remove the employersâ(TM) ability to blackmail those visa holders. By the way, this would make it impossible for an employer to use blackmail on US developers either, knowing that hiring a low wage Indian would not work (it doesnâ(TM)t work without the âoedo as I say or go back homeâ leverage).

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand immigration - aren't there enough people in the US? If the country isn't creating new generations of citizens with the skills to keep things running then how does bringing in a foreign population solve anything in the long term?

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[radarskiy]

"American tech workers thinking they're worth more than they are"

I was unemployed for a year and a half, in which time I saw my old job advertised to me at the same salary I had been making.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if the job in question involves transportation of a person between two points with a minimum speed of 200 miles per hour.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Ayano]

So my department is now supposed to teach, basic gray matrix and eigenvector reduction? Just wait till they reach the actual work! This is basic linear algebra, if applicants can't understand that even when duly noted in the work requirements, they have no business in my department nor should my department train them. We work on difficult telemetry problems and I'll be dammed if I'm force to train incompetents. My team does not need delinquents 'faking it till them make it'.

This isn't about anti-american candidates, it's that universities simply are not producing enough quality graduates that meet the bar. That can be both a fault of the institution and students who want it easy. This is hard work and training expenses on algorithms 101 isn't worthwhile as opposed to finding capable employees who 'get it'.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Reverend Green]

You offer lousy pay, and therefore can't find any skilled Americans. So you import a bunch of H1-B workers to avoid paying market rate for skilled locals.

Sounds like you and your company ARE the problem.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Reverend Green]

Here in Vietnam, foreign workers earn at least 3x as much as a local doing the same job. Many earn more than that.

So as you can imagine, companies do NOT hire foreigners for any job that could be done by a local. If they don't have 10-15 years of serious experience in a profession, the only job open to a foreigner is language teacher.

That is bad for inexperienced foreigners hoping to work in Vietnam. But it's very good for the local economy and local society. There is no anti-immigrant sentiment here, because there are few of us and we aren't taking anyone's jobs.

I think we should adopt a similar policy in the United States. The law should require any imported foreign workers to be paid at least three times as much as their American counterparts. That single simple rule would be enough to end H-1B abuse overnight.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Reverend Green]

It's really fucking easy to find qualifed tech workers in Surveillance Valley. If you are willing to pay a better than average wage. It's that simple.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Ayano]

You make it seem as if there is a large pool of engineers that operate at such levels. Even in something as mundane as "business management", the best players will be fought over. Now In the business of intelligence and mathematical algorithms, it's not 'gutso' or 'drive' that we seek, it's ability and a large number of American engineers simply don't know, or care about 'boring mathematics'.

You're promoting that companies "aren't paying enough". Maybe for IT work as that becomes the new 'mechanic' commodity. As far as hard mathematics, there has always been a shortage of qualified workers and we can't keep fighting over the same number of engineers as it's just musical chairs. Your solution is gating such that 'eventually' graduates will be incentivised to do the hard math required, but I can tell you that we have been offering 150, 200k+ salaries for the appropriate experience. Now if you want fresh graduates, that's 80 or 90k which we offer to both foreign and domestic applicants. Same fresh faces, one side having a mathematical edge, why should I hire someone who clearly doesn't know what they're doing as opposed to another who has a great mathematical grasp and can learn the rest.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Reverend Green]

The pay rates you quote are most unimpressive relative to the cost of buying property in major American cities. That's why you can't find skilled US citizen workers.

Thank you again for using imported H1-B labor to put downward pressure on local wages. Without the diligent efforts of people like you, we might have a thriving middle class.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Ayano]

You clearly don't know anything about compensation packages, 100k-200k is standard for senior SRE; 250k-500k for phd and masters level work on Algorithm development. That is without bonuses and stock options that can go to the low million per year. I was an engineer, and you need to either be a team lead or project lead to reach the upper tiers of that compensation, with stock benefits. It sounds like you're promoting 'same work, more pay'. Forget about mathematics, you just 'deserve' more.

My mechanic gets paid around 60k a year, technical support engineers around 80-70. Location and cost of living dictates pay and we're located suburban. It appears you're just upset at how you can't work the same job with no drive to perform better, and expect greater compensation. I know SREs that earn the equivalent of a 5 bedroom 2 story house every year. I suppose according to you that's not 'good enough' and that's median pay. The problem is the number of knowledgeable and capable engineers, which you clearly have missed the boat on.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called offshoring... maybe you heard of it?

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[zifn4b]

force down wages of their technical workers. I love the whining that they can not find workers. Truth is they can not find workers willing to work under their terms and conditions for the amount of money they want to pay.

BINGO!

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

100k? Holy shit, do you live in BFE? I'm in Silicon Valley. We pay new college grads more than that! Hell! I was talking with our exec's EA the other day. She makes over 100k to run his calendar and arrange parties for the team.

You are NOT paying a lot of money but I would like to know your co panty name. I'll have HR strip your best people, give them base 180k plus 20% yearly bonus and s 50k hiring/move bonus and I'd feel lucky to have them.

100k is shit money. Go hire in India. I'll take all your best Americans.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Ayano]

Sounds like you live and breathe SV. The entire tech world isn't valley btw, and SV salaries aren't the staple, they're the exception due to cost of living in SV.

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[oldgraybeard]

"compulsory regulated training programs" your kidding? Right!

There are individuals I know I can count on and work with, then there is the 9 to 4 crowd (yes it is supposed to be 8 to 5) with an hour off for lunch bunch.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Re:Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

You're very obviously a foreigner and I suspect you're a foreigner in a country that is not first world. If you were, you would know how difficult it is to actually find good people who are capable of doing a job correctly without micromanaging them to the extent that you're essentially you're doing their jobs for them. Even if I were to restrict myself to only hiring Americans (natural-born or naturalized, your choice), well over 90% of the candidates I interview are totally unacceptable for the software development projects I manage. None of the projects I manage are particularly cutting edge such as AI and whatever other buzzword is now the hot thing in Silicon Valley.

Furthermore, the cost of living in the U.S. is higher than in developing countries. That by itself is the reason that Americans must demand a higher wage. For those living in developing countries such as India, if it's so easy to do good work in certain fields that pay well in the U.S., why are those developing countries still such an utter wreck with practically no real domestic companies on the cutting edge to speak of? And copycat companies such as Didi Chuxing, Alibaba, etc. who are protected by very restrictive government policies do not count as they are nothing but localized versions of ideas that originally saw their genesis in the U.S.

Protectionism doesn't work? It's working just fine for China and India engages in policies that are far, far more protectionist than U.S. policies as well.

Re: Governemnt helping big tech companies

[Anonymous Coward]

Which isn't the requirement and you know it. The requirement is to fiddle with the presentation of some bullshit web app and add a field to its database every now and then.

FUCK TRUMP

[Anonymous Coward]

Get this RACIST BAFFOON out of the WHITE HOUSE NOW. He will start a WAR with IRAN for OIL

Re:FUCK TRUMP

[Anonymous Coward]

You think by starting a flame war about Trump that people will be distracted from learning why America was sinking into an economic quagmire for the last 5 decades. If you don't like America and who we choose to lead it then go back to your shithole and stay there for good.

Re:FUCK TRUMP

[Anonymous Coward]

PUTIN chose Trump, not the majority of Americans. Trump is a traitor who will die in Federal prison a bitch. He's already the biggest liar in American history by far.

Except

[rmdingler]

H-1B visas are good as long as you work for the sponsoring employer;

but, when the worker departs the sponsor, he has to find employment with another company qualified to use imported labor, seek a status change, marry a local princess, or depart the country.

Optional Practical Training applies initially as an extension to students with F-1 Visas, although several extensions have been approved in recent years.

Give me a break. :/

[Anonymous Coward]

Anything and everything related to illegal immigration grew hundreds of percent under Obama. He made sure the DNC (modern DNC - an important distinction) had lined their metaphorical pockets with voters before he left. They know they can't win in fair elections, it's desperate and despicable. I feel bad for the innocent people that have been lied to by Obama and the DNC and are in the crosshairs, but enough is enough is enough. I will be voting accordingly henceforth.

Re:Give me a break. :/

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen, brother!

Re: Give me a break. :/

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you talking about the same guy who got labeled "Deporter in Chief" because he was so tough on immigration? Because he continuted to ramp up funding for deportations which was started by Bill Clinton. Clinton btw did more deportations than both Bushes...

Maybe if you had a saner immigration policy than taking a year to get a US Citizen's wife over, or 10 YEARS to get greencards or locking H1s and similar to an employer.... you wouldn't perceive such a mess to clean up.

White House will fix this

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you Trump. Get these job leeches outta here!

Right.

[hey!]

So now we have an immigration program that is openly intended to move US jobs overseas.

What we should have is a program which ends in the recipient receiving a green card.

Xenophobia and bigotry on display right here

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello, friends. What we have here is a prime example of the xenophobia and bigotry that removes any credibility from discussing H-1B issues on Slashdot. I wholeheartedly oppose the abuse of H-1B visas to replace skilled American labor with cheaper foreign workers. However, that's nowhere close to the claims in the parent comment, saying that Indian and Chinese workers are inherently inferior and prone to stealing intellectual property. I'm willing to accept that the educational systems in India and China instill different attitudes in their students than in American schools, which may translate to the workplace. That is even stronger justification for encouraging foreign students to stay and work in the United States after completing their education. The issues with H-1B workers are probably due to foreign educational systems and are certainly not just because of nationality. There's no reason to expect that an American trained in the United States educational system would inherently be superior to an Indian or Chinese worker with an education from the United States.

Re:Xenophobia and bigotry on display right here

[Anonymous Coward]

You are 100% wrong. The reason I oppose it has nothing to do with the quality of foreign workers. I would disagree with a broad categorization of people who oppose these H1B/OPT programs and its absurd to say that we should continue these programs as a result of logically faulty argument involving projecting a stereotyped view of people who oppose these programs. These programs have a highly negative impact on american workers, thats why they should be shut down, it has nothing to do with quality of foreign workers. The charges that opposition to immigration is based on Xenophobia is completely outrageous lie in particular because stopping immigration, studies have shown, will benefit blacks as much or perhaps more than other groups, and we on the alt-right, despite the lies and slander against us, are 100% for equal opportunity for everyone including black people and want to see more black people in IT. We are for job training programs for any American citizen which without discrimination will train any american citizen for the jobs we have available in our economy in a manner that is accessible to everyone, for instance with vocational and apprenticeship type programs that can retrain people quickly. We are for stopping the theft of jobs by foreign aliens. This is how to reduce disparity in pay for all Americans. These programs should be available to everyone with no race or gender qualifier.

I completely oppose the OPT program and H1-B program and believe both should be shut down. It is true, Foreign workers can be just as good as American at what they do, the problem is the negative impact on American workers and the fact that Americans do have a right to sovereignty, whats why I oppose these programs and they should be abolished . The reason we oppose H1B /OPT has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of foreign workers, it has everything to do with protecting american workers and the American middle class and the right of the US just like every other country to sovereignty and independence. You rarely see China or Japan importing vast numbers of foreign workers, because that would undermine the Japanese worker of Chinese worker. Japan or China wouldnt do this to their own people, and neither should we.

The fact is suicide rates among American middle aged men are soaring, why do you think that is? I know many, many american men who cannot find any work at all. We look at these companies and almost completely staffed by foreign aliens, but if you apply to these companies and your an american man, you cannot get a job at all. Its very obvious that these companies are cooking the numbers and planting a lie about a labor shortage, in order to justify laying off American workers and replacing with cheaper foreign labor.

Its an issue for all Americans, white, black etc. The need to stop shut down these immigration programs has nothing to do with "racism" or anything like that, because killing these immigration programs would help all american citizens of all races. I am all for Black Americans being able to get into these jobs as well, I am opposed to any kind of discrimination against citizens. American jobs should be for American citizens, with no discrimination. How many times have we heard Liberals bemoan black unemployment and so on. Yet , instead of employing Black Americans instead, these corporations, usually run by Liberals, import foreign aliens and instead we keep the Black American, too often, on welfare or low wage jobs. In other words, liberals and pro-immigration people are actually keeping blacks in poverty while they then cover up their crimes with all of this nonsense about blacks being oppressed and so on by the "evil Conservative nationalist". This is complete inverse from reality, because if Conservative Nationalists had their way, we would stop immigration and instead we would make sure to train and rehabilitate Americans, of all races for these jobs, including Black Americans, and Black incomes would actually rise. So liberals actually want to keep blacks

I also went thru the OPT program

[stikves]

A few years ago, OPT was not strictly necessary, hence I used it for a few months. However now with much more people applying for H1-B, and having a significantly smaller chance to get one, people tend to stay on OPT for longer periods. They have been living here in US for long periods (school + work), maybe 7-8 or more. And I would believe most have already proved their benefit to this country.

I had friends who were contributing members of our society who had to leave for other countries due to losing the H1-B lottery several years in a row. They tend to hang on to OPT as much as possible than have to leave, at least for another year.

For this reason I would prefer merit based, or "auction" based H1-B system. If the company finds the candidate to contribute significant amounts, then they can also "bid" by giving higher salaries. This also answers the question about skilled labor being replaced with foreign unskilled ones. If you cannot pay in the top so much thousand (50K?) positions for a foreign employee, it means the company does not actually value their work so much.

(I would also support separate quotas for engineers, and lower paying important jobs, like skilled teachers).

Re:I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

You can spend aeons trying to figure out how to set a number and apportion the seats fairly, but fact is, people like you will NEVER understand the politics of the situation. You fall so in love with making the world a better place and aligning that with your interests that you forget about the people you sweep under the table, or even about making your own home better. Americans gave the Indians and the Chinese an economic kick in the but and they got going, like the Japanese, and now it's time to ween them off of the teet. Understand, you being here brings out the worst in some of our companies, we cannot innovate as fast as we'd like or make the kind of progress we'd want to because we're helping you out of the mud huts; we provided you with the equipment, gave you the capital, provided the training, shipped an entire economy over, and screwed our middle class to do it. To make matters worse, you then emulate some of the worst behaivours out of our companies instead of thinking "Gee, that was awfully nasty what Americans did to eachother". And there is no thanks, because you've learned to be Americans mercifully. We help you out, and it's "F-U". Ultimately, you people need to deal with your outdated society and outdated culture; India needs to learn to get past its Caste System and China's leadership needs to learn it can't arrange it's country like a Go board. China has yet to proove it can innovate, as has India as well.

Re: I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a fucking moron if you don't understand the value of skilled workers. Unskilled workers on government benefits are a real problem. Productive, tax paying people with in-demand skills are an asset. Fucking retard.

Re: I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

Half of the working scientist/engineer community are immigrants. Over the years, well-off and smart Americans now tend the MBA/Mgmt route instead of STEM. So the migrants take the STEM work. It's a good deal!

Boy, it is going to hit HARD when that STEM community desire a move to the EU/Canada/Australia instead.

Re:I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

Please lookup the exponential growth of China's patents and their domination of Artificial Intelligence research - They publish more in the area than US, even a good deal of the AI work in US is by Chinese immigrants.

Re: I also went thru the OPT program

[AHuxley]

Its not a good deal for any American with skills who took on debt to get a good education.
US citizens have to accept a low wage in the USA to stay competitive with workers from other nations who got a "free" university education.

Re: I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

It's already hitting and many opting for the EU instead. The US has been abusing them to hell and it doesn't help that they're going to make it even more increasingly difficult to come tot he US. I get it, we need more skilled American workers, but they're doing nothing to encourage it. Instead, we're just going to have a huge shortage of qualified people, because more US companies focused on cheap labor and abusing migrant STEM fields.

I just laugh at the "We're going to bring American industry back". With whom? Who's going to build it? Because I can guarantee you we don't have enough Americans to rebuild our own industry..

Re: I also went thru the OPT program

[Anonymous Coward]

They're driving down wages because they always have the option to go back to a third world country and live like kings.

Re:I also went thru the OPT program

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

I would say auction is a good idea. Pay so much to hire a H1B. But once hired the person is portable, who can leave you for another employer. Pay the fees for the position, but can't treat the hires as indentured labor.

Slasdot is Fake News

[Anonymous Coward]

L1 is for foreign students who want to becone American idiots. H1B is a temp worker visa. And 9-11 was an inside job. ae911truth dot org

Libtards in America are completely full of sheet.

A simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

(which means it will never get adopted)

H1-B and OPT workers must be fulltime regular employees of the company doing the work - no contractor, no working for job shops. If IBM, Google or Amazon need them so bad, they should have to foot the whole bill - benefits, sponsorship, etc., and make it so the foreign worker cannot be let go at the drop of a hat.

I have a hard time complaining

[aaarrrgggh]

Getting the best and brightest from other countries is a good thing. It used to bother me a little, but after hiring two Indian engineers I would say I would rather keep that talent in the US.

The only problem is that now to transition them to H1B, they need to earn $91k... without their PE. One is worth it for sure, the other has to convince me still...

Re:I have a hard time complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but it is just an excuse to get lower priced talent. Those on H1B visas can't just pick up and move to another job if they feel they are underpaid. And the fact is most of them are underpaid compared to engineers born in the US who can leave and work at a competitor. It is a form of indentured servitude.

Re: I have a hard time complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

Then the Indies should be used to it. Untouchable there. Untouchable here.

Re:I have a hard time complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

How is India ever supposed to get ahead with an already-wealthy nation stealing their best people? That's such a dick move. As if America needs any more help...

Re: I have a hard time complaining

[Reverend Green]

Thanks for helping to drive down American wages.

Re: I have a hard time complaining

[aaarrrgggh]

Has nothing to do with “American wages,” and especially not in a downward direction. If they become eligible for the H1B, they would be at about 115% of normal wage for the position based on experience (and maybe 105-110% based on capability). But, the reason for hiring them is about getting talent, not just bodies. There is maybe 1% unemployment in my industry locally right now— likely much less.

Re: I have a hard time complaining

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. It's about money. Period.

Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[mi]

Tell me again,please, how stupid, unfriendly, obnoxious, and otherwise unpleasant America is, and how badly degrading and oppressive and otherwise unfortunate the life here...

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact that America is stealing highly educated people from other countries in no way erases America's problems with racism, sexism, and how historical inequities have been distributed across different races, genders, religions, abilities, and sexualities. Every 28 hours a black person in the United States is killed by someone employed or protected by the government of the United States. Privilege, white supremacy, homophobia, toxic masculinity, and gender normativity are issues which demand action and yet are going unaddressed.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[_Sharp'r_]

I guess mi technically asked you to tell him that, and you did.

But still, maybe read a little about Race and Justice in the U.S. before spouting off on it. For example:

New York City data suggests no bias of officers towards shooting black suspects compared with their representation among dangerous police encounters, and if anything the reverse effect. ... There is no support for the contention that white officers are more likely than officers of other races to shoot black suspects.

Compared to most countries, America is a paradise of opportunity, welcomes immigrants and foreign workers, and has non-existent issues with racism, sexism, historical inequities, etc... You probably also think Americans invented slavery...

Re: Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[Reverend Green]

Get off it, Ivan. That divisive socjus Newspeak is soooooooooo last year. We're not interested in listening to your bigoted yammering anymore.

Now sit down and shut up, while the adults try to figure out how to fix our fuckt economy.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[serviscope_minor]

Tell me again,please, how stupid, unfriendly, obnoxious, and otherwise unpleasant America is, and how badly degrading and oppressive and otherwise unfortunate the life here...

Hey bro, heads up: you appear to be replying to the voices in your head rather than anyone in the thread.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[drinkypoo]

You probably also think Americans invented slavery...

America didn't invent slavery, but it was the last western nation to make it illegal, and lots of people who live here still think it's a good idea.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[mi]

Hey bro

What is it with your kind insisting on calling strangers "bro"? Is it a subtle insult you make — defiling the target's reputation by claiming his close acquaintanceship with the likes of your own? Or just a desperate and pitiable attempt to belong?

you appear to be replying to the voices in your head

I'm addressing the cowards like this one, having heard their voices — snarky and outraged alike — numerous times before. Indeed, yours may very well have been among them, whether out of sincere agreement or just the already-mentioned desire to belong...

rather than anyone in the thread.

I started this thread. By your logic, anyone doing such a thing suffers from a mental disease... Need I say more? Perhaps, I need — but I will not, for I am not the professional which can help you.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[Anonymous Coward]

Lots of people in the world still think slavery is a good idea, they just call it socialism these days.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[serviscope_minor]

What is it with your kind insisting on calling strangers "bro"?

Because it annoys them.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[_Sharp'r_]

America didn't invent slavery, but it was the last western nation to make it illegal

You mean, besides Spain, Portugal, Cuba, Brazil, Italy, France, Netherlands, Russia, Germany, among others? Don't forget to include their full colonies and territorial possessions.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[mjwx]

America didn't invent slavery, but it was the last western nation to make it illegal

You mean, besides Spain, Portugal, Cuba, Brazil, Italy, France, Netherlands, Russia, Germany, among others? Don't forget to include their full colonies and territorial possessions.

First off, you are so incorrect you deserve a QI klaxon

By western, he meant European and you knew that.

Germany as a unified state did not exist until 1871 and has never permitted slavery (if we exclude the Nazis).
Spain made slavery illegal in 1818 (did not take effect until 1820) as part of a treaty with the United Kingdom (plus we had kicked their arses in the Napoleonic war).
Portugal eliminated slavery in 1818 due to a treaty with the United Kingdom (we did this a lot).
Italy was the same as Germany, it didn't unify until 1848 and never permitted slavery.
France, Slavery was abolished in all French territories and possessions in 1794.
The Netherlands made slavery illegal in their colonies in 1863.
Russia abolished slavery in 1723 but retained serfdom until 1861.

The last actual slaves in the US were emancipated in 1865... Seeing as I've counted serfdom, systemic mistreatment of blacks continued under US law until 1964 (as in the Civil Rights Act of).

Ironically the one nation you could have mentioned that would have earned you points was the United Kingdom... Slavery here was not ruled illegal until 2012. Of course there was a reason for this, we never really tolerated it. We never really had a mass of slaves so it never occurred to anyone that we needed a law against it. Hell, even serfs (whom had to be paid and cared for by their lords, lords who mistreated serfs were punished) were emancipated in 1574 by Elizabeth I.

It pays to know what you're talking about, before talking about it.

Re:Tell me again about "Ugly America"

[_Sharp'r_]

Germany: Why wouldn't slavery under the Nazi's count? They ran the country at the time...
Spain: The 1818 treaty banned the slave trade, not slavery. They didn't ratify the slavery convention until 1927.
Portugal: Slavery wasn't abolished in all territories until 1869. Again, you seem to be confusing the slave trade with slavery. The United States banned the international "slave trade" in 1807.
Italy: Ratified the 1926 Slavery Convention in 1954. Until then, Italian Somaliland (their colony) still allowed slavery.
France: I missed. 1794 is right.
Netherlands: So the same time as the emancipation proclamation and when slaves were freed in the United States.
Russia: You're forgetting about the Soviet forced labor camps during WW II, among other things.

So you're 1/7 right. Does that mean you get a klaxon? It pays to know what you're talking about, before talking about it.

P.S. The UK had plenty of slaves, especially in colonies, but they also essentially were the first to lead the fight to abolish it around the world, including in their colonies and territories, so it seems churlish to try and get them on a technicality.

So you oppose standing armies, right?

[rsilvergun]

because that was a big part of why the founding fathers wanted everybody armed. They wanted the militias to handle defense. Even back then it was understood that untrained citizens couldn't beat trained soldiers. We didn't really 'win' the revolutionary war so much as Britain gave up to go focus on the French (who wanted us split from the Brits to weaken their enemy).

As it stands you're weapons are pointless against the US Military. Even if we removed _all_ restrictions and let you have rocket launchers, grenades and fully automatic rifles you'd run out of supplies and your lack of military discipline, training and supply lines means you'd be gunned down. A few like you might live up in the wood and occasionally come done and blow up a school bus like they do in Afghanistan. But you'd never kill anyone who really mattered.

The above sounds harsh because, well, it's the truth, and the truth is bloody fucking _harsh_. If you want to prevent oppression though the good news is it's not hard. Fight bigotry in all forms. It's the #1 tool of oppressors to divide the working class. Make sure _everyone_ is taken care of. Food, Shelter, Healthcare and education. The #2 tool of oppressors is scarcity. It keeps us at each other's throats.

But please, abandon this notion of fighting back with violence. It doesn't work. Best case you get to change out the oppressors. Worst case you become a terrorist.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Reverend Green]

You should definitely tell those armed civilians in Afghanistan - who have fought the US military to a standstill for a decade - that they have absolutely no chance against the US military.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are some more reasons for that than "they had weapons". US citizens accepting their lifestyle? Keep dreaming.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Cederic]

It's amazing what people will endure to stay free.

Sadly it's also amazing what people will endure to avoid having to fight to stay free.

Re:So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Bruinwar]

because that was a big part of why the founding fathers wanted everybody armed.

This is way off topic but I keep seeing people spouting off about gun ownership opinions of the founding fathers. The founding fathers agreed on very little. Yes, many of them did fear having a standing army & believed in a "well-regulated militia". Everyone armed? Hardly. Firearms were expensive. Regular folks did not own them. There was something like 14% gun ownership (googled it) & half of those didn't work. There were not enough firearms to arm the standing militias. They had severe shortages & the state actually regulated firearms. Can you imagine.. they confiscated firearms from folks that couldn't use them.

Our founding fathers likely did not conceptualize "everybody armed".

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[drinkypoo]

There are some more reasons for that than "they had weapons".

You seriously think that nobody would be willing to sell arms into the USA to keep insurgency going? We, the USA, sell arms into every other country for the same purpose, what causes you to imagine that nobody would do it here?

US citizens accepting their lifestyle? Keep dreaming.

You seriously imagine that humans in the US are inferior to those in Afghanistan? Because humans are humans. The great depression proved that Americans could live in the mud. They can do it again.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you an American? Maybe in your country the army would happily mass slaughter civilians but if the US had reason for a mass civil uprising of the type you describe, we'd more likely quickly end up with a military coup, mass executions of Washington DC scumbags and an election.

Re:So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

because that was a big part of why the founding fathers wanted everybody armed. They wanted the militias to handle defense. Even back then it was understood that untrained citizens couldn't beat trained soldiers. We didn't really 'win' the revolutionary war so much as Britain gave up to go focus on the French (who wanted us split from the Brits to weaken their enemy).

As it stands you're weapons are pointless against the US Military. Even if we removed _all_ restrictions and let you have rocket launchers, grenades and fully automatic rifles you'd run out of supplies and your lack of military discipline, training and supply lines means you'd be gunned down. A few like you might live up in the wood and occasionally come done and blow up a school bus like they do in Afghanistan. But you'd never kill anyone who really mattered.

The above sounds harsh because, well, it's the truth, and the truth is bloody fucking _harsh_. If you want to prevent oppression though the good news is it's not hard. Fight bigotry in all forms. It's the #1 tool of oppressors to divide the working class. Make sure _everyone_ is taken care of. Food, Shelter, Healthcare and education. The #2 tool of oppressors is scarcity. It keeps us at each other's throats.

But please, abandon this notion of fighting back with violence. It doesn't work. Best case you get to change out the oppressors. Worst case you become a terrorist.

Care to explain the systemic scarcity in black inner cities that have been run by Democrats for literally a century then?

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[thegarbz]

You should definitely tell those armed civilians in Afghanistan - who have fought the US military to a standstill for a decade - that they have absolutely no chance against the US military.

They don't. But they for the past decade they have been playing against what only can be defined as a "trickle oppression". The USA hasn't demonstrated it's military might since the Vietnam war and even that effort paled in comparison to WW2.

Make no mistake, those civilians in Afghanistan have zero chance against the US military. However the US military hasn't really put it's heart into it either.

Re:So you oppose standing armies, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um.... The US citizenry have the US Military hopelessly outgunned. Even with what the military has, just 5% of the citizens standing up to them would be enough to completely decimate them, especially when you take into account that the citizens are the military's supply lines.

There are only about 1.2 million military between every branch and MOS, most of them are not combat MOS either. Even if 1 military was worth 50 armed citizens (They aren't) the military would be facing numbers even worse than that and their supplies aren't endless when the ones providing their supplies are the ones they are fighting against.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[lgw]

. The USA hasn't demonstrated it's military might since the Vietnam war and even that effort paled in comparison to WW2.

You mean, the US has not demonstrated some alleged, potential might that it once had a lifetime ago. What makes you think that can change?

At the small scale, the US in Iraq was objectively the deadliest fighting force ever seen. Clearing houses, where the defender should have a massive advantage, casualties went 10:1 the other way. When it comes to squad-level action, there are none better.

But that's not the might of a nation. Our Navy can't even steer around civilian ships safely, and it's clear that's a structural issue (overworked crews with inadequate training and failing equipment), not just a bad commander here or there. Our air force can keep its full compliment of planes flying, because it's so underfunded it has to park some to salvage for parts, like the cold-war Russian air force. There are structural issues across the board.

And those top-notch soldiers who fought in Iraq? Those are now ex-military gun owners. I'd bet on them in a fight.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[thegarbz]

potential might

If you think it is only potential then you're not at all paying attention.

What makes you think that can change?

Willpower. The USA is only showing the might that it wants to all the while showing restraint knowing full well that international opinion is actually still a valuable currency.

Our Navy can't even steer around civilian ships safely

Taking a couple of isolated incidents shows nothing about might. In fact a lack of display of might breeds exactly the kind of complacency that allows a few ships to crash into each other. And in the end, as long as the missles fly, no one will care if a ship or two goes down due to misdirection. Just because you have structural issues doesn't mean you don't have might.

And those top-notch soldiers who fought in Iraq? Those are now ex-military gun owners. I'd bet on them in a fight.

A bunch of mentally wounded men suffering from PTSD and utterly failed by metal health system of America with only a small fraction of the gear they had in the past and no command structure which fundamentally underpinned their entire training? Look I'll save you the trouble, just send me whatever money you were going to bet and then neither of us will need to watch that sad one sided affair. Life isn't like the movies. Leave the old guard overthrowing governments to Willis, Stalone, Ludren and Schwarzenegger.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[thegarbz]

errr.. Lundgren wtf spell chequer!

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[mjwx]

You should definitely tell those armed civilians in Afghanistan - who have fought the US military to a standstill for a decade - that they have absolutely no chance against the US military.

You should take that attitude to Ireland... Who for 300 years fought for independence from England... only to be granted it by a vote.

Or to Tibet. Or South Ossetia. See how that's working out for them.

Afghanistan and Iraq were successful because the NATO nations refuse to commit to a total war (and there are good reasons for that). In fact Afghanistan's resistance only became successful because GWB moved to Iraq and forgot about Afghanistan.

Re:So you oppose standing armies, right?

[mjwx]

because that was a big part of why the founding fathers wanted everybody armed. They wanted the militias to handle defense. Even back then it was understood that untrained citizens couldn't beat trained soldiers. We didn't really 'win' the revolutionary war so much as Britain gave up to go focus on the French (who wanted us split from the Brits to weaken their enemy).

Back then, there wasn't anything like a professional army. Most armies were raised from the peasantry, there were professional soldiers who were mostly mercenaries. Only the officer class was somewhat professional and in Britain, this was more true for the Navy than the Army because the Navy still had a job in peace time.

The main problem the British had was that according to the doctrine of the time, armies in the colonies were raised from the local population.

Standing (professional) armies for entire nations wasn't really a thing until after the Napoleonic war.

Re: So you oppose standing armies, right?

[lgw]

Taking a couple of isolated incidents shows nothing about might.

They aren't a couple of isolated incidents - they are a pattern across the navy. Read the incident reports and court martial summaries (what's public) and it's clear, from patrol boats that surrender because the ship is in too poor shape to fight, to DDGs where a dozen officers each should have sounded an alarm, and none of the did. 20 hour shifts, no training on navigation basics, faulty radar (or mis-configured). These are cultural (and budget) issues.

Also, you should look at the two civil wars we've had in the US (the successful one we call a revolution, of course). It's always trained military onboth sides, armed with real equipment thanks to either bases switching sides, or raids on armories. But that starts with an armed populace.

Re:So you oppose standing armies, right?

[pnutjam]

Institutional racism, we've been over this before. What have you done to improve things?

Yawwwwnnnnn!!!!

[anand.praxair]

Please go after the shameless universities that proactively go to even lesser known Universities to recruit students. US education without a practical education is worthless. You want to solve the OPT issue, fix your broken immigration system. I can talk about Indian students, 95% GO BACK to India after getting higher education. If you want to close the 5% gap go after the universities that seek immigrants as their students. I will paint you a real scenario here, without International students, most schools will have to shutter their STEM education.

Re:Yawwwwnnnnn!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, they just wouldn't be able to raise the price by 50% every two years.

Are we living in the same dimension?

[rsilvergun]

We completely dominate Afghanistan. We got _everything_ we wanted. They didn't "fight us to a stand still". Read my post again. Every now and then they blow up somebody who doesn't matter. Meanwhile we get the oil pipelines and endless war we want that keeps billions of your tax dollars and mine flowing into the hands of the Military Industrial complex instead of roads, schools and health care.

They're not winning by any measure. They playing right into our hands. Not that they can do a damn thing about it. The only thing that can stop this cycle is the American voter. If you happen to be one of them please wake up already.

OPT is for the student's benefit

[Espectr0]

OPT was designed so the student earns on the job skills on US soil after graduation. It's more like an internship. Companies can benefit in the sense that if they like the student's work after a year, THEN they can try to get the student worker a H1B.

I'm personally affected by this as i will be trying for it once i finish with my studies.

Re:OPT is for the student's benefit

[samwichse]

Yes, this article is very "scary," in that it seems to imply OPT is being abused somehow. Biased in the extreme.

My wife stayed on here on an OPT until we got married and she got a K3. Why does it make sense to educate a student here, then kick them out the door the day they graduate? And why do we not wanted educated, motivated immigrants?

Re:Mr Brock dont you get tired of shitposting?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think he's even figured out yet that the political bike he's been riding since he joined the Young People's Socialist League (youth affiliate of the Socialist Party of America) has two flat tires so he has no need to fix them!

Preventing revolt of the guards or alternatives

[Paul Fernhout]

Howard Zinn talks about a possible revolt of the guards: http://www.historyisaweapon.co...
"However, the unexpected victories-even temporary ones-of insurgents show the vulnerability of the supposedly powerful. In a highly developed society, the Establishment cannot survive without the obedience and loyalty of millions of people who are given small rewards to keep the system going: the soldiers and police, teachers and ministers, administrators and social workers, technicians and production workers, doctors, lawyers, nurses, transport and communications workers, garbage men and firemen. These people-the employed, the somewhat privileged-are drawn into alliance with the elite. They become the guards of the system, buffers between the upper and lower classes. If they stop obeying, the system falls."

And here is the inequitable financial reality of that system given wealth is control under capitalism:
"Wealth Inequality in America"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

I wonder if the problem as seen by the ruling class may be that techies have their hands on the key infrastructure of modern society (including banking infrastructure)? If US techies were really well-off (e.g. all millionaires), techies might have some time and energy for creating alternatives. So, best to keep them down by making them insecure by importing cheap labor rather than train US Americans and provide them higher salaries, more benefits, and more equity. Techies may think they are doing well because they are doing better than the average US American -- but what they are paid in general does not reflect how key their contributions are these days to the digital infrastructure of control and surveillance.

I remember back in the 1990s when independent contractors got 2X to 3X what regular employees did. The H1Bs, even at prevailing wages for employees, also greatly undermined the earnings for contractors too. Many H1Bs don't really replace employees as much as they replace contractors.

Trump travel ban alone has that covered.

[Uberbah]

There's also the beatings of gay people, rampant islamophobia, and descendants of European invaders calling descendants of native american's "illegal immigrants." Yet here you are, with your wingnut persecution complex.

Note the shitweasel words

[Uberbah]

New York City data suggests no bias of officers towards shooting black suspects compared with their representation among dangerous police encounters.

....and the lack of any definition or statistics to back up their claims. Was the chickenshit cop that murdered Philandro Castile in a "dangerous encounter" because the man actually had a gun in his vehicle? The rest of this rag is filled with similar sloppy reasoning to support an agenda:

finds that 66% of accused blacks get prosecuted compared to 69% of accused whites; 75% of prosecuted blacks get convicted compared to 78% of prosecuted whites.

...which completely ignores the fact that blacks are accused more often then whites. Otherwise you wouldn't have black men using drugs at the same rate as white women yet be 45 times more likely to go to jail. And ignoring the disparity in sentencing.

Compared to most countries, America is a paradise of opportunity

Laughably false. The democratic socialism in Scandinavia beats you like a rented mule - higher income mobility and young entrepreneurs can start businesses without having to worry about health care costs or paying off five figures in student loan debt.

Re:Note the shitweasel words

[_Sharp'r_]

lack of any definition or statistics to back up their claim

You obviously didn't read the link, because all the conclusions are based on and cite academic studies, official statistics and academic meta-studies.

So stop arguing out of your ass and do a little research.

Re:Note the shitweasel words

[Uberbah]

That's your problem: I did read your starts-with-a-conclusion-and-works-backward shitpost. That's why I know it makes claims without citations or any quantitative/qualitative reasoning.

Re:Note the shitweasel words

[_Sharp'r_]

Claims with no citations? You're either an idiot or an outright troll/liar.

A small sampling of the citations linked in the post in question:
http://www.city-journal.org/20...
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi...
http://www.umass.edu/legal/Ben...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publ...
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub...
http://www.motherjones.com/pol...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abst...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abst...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinf...
http://www.jstor.org/discover/...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles...
https://www.ncjrs.gov/app/abst...
http://qje.oxfordjournals.org/...
http://www.sentencingproject.o...
http://online.wsj.com/articles...
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/pa...
https://www.law.upenn.edu/live...
That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short. That's enough citations that I then have to add in this line because the stupid post filter thinks the average line length is too short.

Re:Note the shitweasel words

[Uberbah]

Claims with no citations?

I cited some of the claims without citations - you even read, bro?

You're either an idiot or an outright troll/liar.

No, just a person who can spot someone working overtime with confirmation bias, and has heard the phrase "lies, damn lies, and statistics". Like the aforementioned "dangerous encounters" stat that neglects to define what a "dangerous encounter" is.

Re:Note the shitweasel words

[_Sharp'r_]

You don't even know what the word "cite" means, do you? Here's a hint.

Probate records

[Anonymous Coward]

[Citation needed]

If you're referring to probate records studied in Arming America by Bellesiles, few families would let a gun go to probate, it would be retained by the spouse or handed to their heir before the court became involved. The book was awarded the Bancroft prize, and then the prize was withdrawn for lack of scholarship and integrity in his sources. Emory University's final report on his academic honesty: http://www.emory.edu/news/Releases//Final_Report.pdf

I keep hearing people say this

[rsilvergun]

but the number of H1-Bs keeps going up and every one gets taken. From a purely mathematical standpoint it's just not true. If it was we'd have labor shortages resulting in not just hiring but raises and training. Anecdotally I'm not seeing the training and there's been plenty of studies to show the raises aren't coming (there were several in the wake of the Trump tax cuts that showed the money was going to stock buy backs and mergers like everybody said it would).

I hate to say this but so far it's all just wishful thinking.