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Unresolved Login Issue Prevented Florida 'Concealed Weapon' Background Checks For Over a Year (tampabay.com)
An anonymous reader quotes the Tampa Bay Times
For more than a year, the state of Florida failed to conduct national background checks on tens of thousands of applications for concealed weapons permits, potentially allowing drug addicts or people with a mental illness to carry firearms in public... The employee in charge of the background checks could not log into the system, the investigator learned. The problem went unresolved until discovered by another worker in March 2017 -- meaning that for more than a year applications got approved without the required background check.
During that time, which coincided with the June 12, 2016 shooting at Pulse nightclub that left 50 dead, the state saw an unprecedented spike in applications for concealed weapons permits. There were 134,000 requests for permits in the fiscal year ending in June 2015. The next 12 months broke a record, 245,000 applications, which was topped again in 2017 when the department received 275,000 applications... There are now 1.8 million concealed weapon permit holders in Florida.
The employee with the login issue, who has since been fired, "told the Times she had been working in the mailroom when she was given oversight of the database in 2013. 'I didn't understand why I was put in charge of it.'"
During that time, which coincided with the June 12, 2016 shooting at Pulse nightclub that left 50 dead, the state saw an unprecedented spike in applications for concealed weapons permits. There were 134,000 requests for permits in the fiscal year ending in June 2015. The next 12 months broke a record, 245,000 applications, which was topped again in 2017 when the department received 275,000 applications... There are now 1.8 million concealed weapon permit holders in Florida.
The employee with the login issue, who has since been fired, "told the Times she had been working in the mailroom when she was given oversight of the database in 2013. 'I didn't understand why I was put in charge of it.'"
Government staffing has issues. Who was this employee related to? Patronage lives at all levels of government.
Employee's story doesn't make sense, dates don't line up. Who was her supervisor? What's his/her version? Next supervisor up?
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Since each state should be having their sales verified through this database, the FBI should be able to audit how many queries are made per state, to validate that they match the number of sales being made. If there is a significant discrepancy, then the state should be investigated for failure to follow procedure. This should be EASY to catch, and will help find the points where failures are occurring, like this.
All those concealed carry permits without background checks? It's an authoritarian's worst nightmare!
How many murders and shootings were committed by those unvetted CCW holders? I will guess zero.
"Since each state should be having their sales verified through this database, the FBI should be able to audit how many queries are made per state, to validate that they match the number of sales being made."
And this has fuck-all to do with the issue discussed in the article.
I'm guessing reading comprehension was not your strong point - ever. Still isn't.
This article is about people who applied for concealed-carry licenses not having their backgrounds checked, and the applications being approved anyway.
NOTHING to do with gun sales.
Match the sales of what? This was for concealed carry licenses, not buying guns. The background checks for those are done by dealers, who are auditable and who face very strong penalties for not doing it right.
in addition to the Gun Show one. Most places have it on the books that if the background check takes more than X days you have to issue the permit. In theory it's supposed to stop Big Government from using Bureaucracy® to keep guns out of the hands of citizens. In practice it's just a big 'ole loop hole to let anyone have a gun or a concealed carry permit.
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Have a system of checks in place. Do something to the system to make them not work by breaking them or hiring an employee who is not qualified. Use as an example as to why background checks don't work and why we need to get rid of them.
This is basically how the GOP operates. Like all the laws they used to block municipal broadband...they cite an example of my town's briefly-municipal system as a "failure that cost the taxpayers millions."
Except the system was highly flawed, violated FCC rules, the DOJ had to tell the FCC to enforce it's own rules on the subject, the incumbent privatized ISP responded by actually expanding it's coverage, people jumped ship to a better system, city took over the system only to shut it down cleanly. It was broadband over power line...it was a doomed system...but to the average profit-loving Republican...it's example number one of why "we need to let the private industry run broadband".
This whole thing is a joke. The gun lobby didn't want the system to work.
Given that most states go out of their way to avoid looking into such things and the Dickey amendment makes in depth research a practical impossibility (it's written in such a way that it doesn't explicitly ban gov't gun research but does for all intents & purposes) we'll probably never know. Maybe if one of those guys goes on an honest to goodness shooting rampage.
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Don't like the current POTUS? Easy... Move to whatever shit stained country you came from.
True, although the logic applies--how many concealed carry permits are issued, vs. how many queries are made. This can be audited and if they don't match, an investigation launched.
Nah, I'll just watch him die in Federal Prison paid for with my tax dollars instead. Traitors don't deserve anything more. Watching him suck Putin's asshole on the world stage is nauseating for real Americans. Get tested, INCEL faggot GOP.
... and now that we have the password, the computer will use AI, blockchain and the cloud to find all you bitches (or bastards, as may apply).
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
Must be a two digit iq.. fucking mongs.
I'ld guess 11,000. Both are guesses are equally moronic. Please go back to Faceblog.
You are the bull in a bullfight. Thrashing about for our entertainment.
Trump is Bob Dobbs!
of politicians and government. Once they pass them they for the most part don't care about whether they work, are effective, harmful, who gets hurt or are properly implemented by the government bureaucrats. They got their bullet point/talking point for campaign ads/tools to attack their political opponents and they just move on, problem solved.
;)
I also want to say again, about gun violence, what is it about our culture and society that creates individuals who think gun violence is a good way to get their fame on social media/solve their problems.
Maybe the real issue is not directly the gun (a tool) but the person and their state of mind along with our culture and society! Lets be open minded and at least ask the question.
Just my 2 cents
Employee is given a task, then doesn't do it, because cannot.
Boss doesn't find out for over a year that employee didn't do the assigned work.
My first thought is that it isn't really fair to fire the employee for that, but that really depends on whether she made clear to her boss she couldn't do the job. And why not give her the old job back, was she no good at that? If not, why give her oversight of this database? Do explain that one, please.
But the boss not finding out about it for over a year? Or the boss' boss? And so on? That's inexcusable. They're supposed to know that sort of thing, that's their job. So if any heads are to roll, I expect at least several levels of middle management to start sprouting vacancies. If not, the firing of managers shall continue until the idiocy stops.
Right up to the governor if necessary. Go on, have a full-blown election with only new candidates over the firing of an ex-mailroom clerk. Or what is this democracy thing for, anyway?
Posting as anon because Rick Scott is incredibly punitive...
The republicans in my state have decided to underfund government to ensure things like this happen. Go to most state agencies and you'll find underpaid employees and constant turnover.
DCF employees were arrested a few months ago for filing inspections they never completed. They were told to do so by their supervisors (who obviously denied it). Pressure comes from the top and runs downhill like a waterfall. When the music stops, a low level employee takes the hit. It's wrong and needs to stop.
Properly fund the agencies or just get rid of them. This game of underfunding them so you can point fingers is immature and unamerican.
What do you think triggered this investigation in the first place?
Since each state should be having their sales verified through this database, the FBI should be able to audit how many queries are made per state
IMO: When a successful background check is made; the national database should issue a Background verification control number which MUST be recorded by the states in their own databases and must also
appear stamped on a concealed carry permit; A permit without the correct control number is not valid. The control number can be looked up later and will match to the personal information that was used to query the background database.
If the background database info of that person changes later, for example an arrest or conviction is added, then the state will be sent a notification and be required to revoke the concealed carry permit.
Except for the non-licensed dealers at gun shows who don't have to do any background checks at all.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Process, process, process... Why didnt management know how many checks had been done per month? if this process were *important* why was one persons memory enough to break it? Firing this person is scape goating of the worst sort. Management is responsible for measuring employee results. Not measuring for a year, and then firing, is either abusive, or negligent or both... unless there was deceit involved, where they were asking the right questions, but she was giving deceitful answers.
If the check is not done, the permit application should be DENIED. It's an application. The default should be rejection.
Note that in the article, of 365 permits issued, 291 (!!) were rescinded. That's more than 3/4ths of them! They would have gotten a lot closer to the desired result by automatically REJECTING applications without the background check.
Argue all you want about the righteousness of the law itself, but while it's the law, you get to follow it, right? AC
HOW THE FUCK!
Connecticut's gun laws after Sandy Hook reduced gun killings by over 40% across the board.
And your cite? Does not say "Guns help prevent crime more than they cause it. " at all.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for unrestricted gun access, but let's not muddy the waters with BS. If we as a society want these rights to guns, we have to pay the price and know - with open eyes - the costs.
Rick Scott and other republicans are trying to strangle government by keeping wages low and churn high. Many want to eventually run for national office and want to run on their Florida record. They do very little in the way of actually doing what's best for Floridians.
This has little to do with background checks and everything to do with under funding departments they don't like.
Non-licensed gun dealers at gun shows would be illegal. Being a non-licensed gun dealer anywhere is illegal. Are you referring to private sales?
He's too stupid to keep his mouth shut. This ends in prison for him.
Yes, I'm referring to gun dealers who go to shows and claim to be "private sellers".
If you've ever been to a gun show, you've seen them. As a lifelong gun owner,, I've actually purchased guns from these characters.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Alot in a lifetime... In a day even.
[($)]
the loophole is there on purpose to make it easier to purchase guns.
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You had ONE JOB lady... Incompetence of the worst sort--!
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
... what can be perfectly explained by stupidity.
Yes, I'm referring to gun dealers who go to shows and claim to be "private sellers".
If you've ever been to a gun show, you've seen them
So have I. Same guy with his table of Mauser K98s for the past decade. He probably has a C&R, I do too. Point is activities like you describe are already illegal, but the BATFE dosen't seem to care about them
Because wounds of society shoudn't be healed by stingers and tasers. But with love.
Let me back up your point. I'm for outlawing guns. However I am also for more killing. I want people to reenact the glorious sword battles of the middle ages. We would also solve the problem of too many old people.
Eliminating guns will not fix the essential problem, mainly that I am crazy. If you eliminate guns, then you are going to have to eliminate knives and then large hammers. The problem, is not the guns or the knives or the hammers. It is crazy people like me.
So write to your favorite news station today and demand that they outlaw me. I am a danger to society and should not be allowed to post in public forums
I live down here, love the place, but the number of mouth breathers are as thick as the mosquitoes at times.
Until recently the ATF refused to give these people licenses. It was right on the form, do not apply if you only sell at gun shows. They preferred to let them sell and look the other way, and then complain about the number of guns being sold without background checks.
This is pointless. A lot of states, such as New Hampshire, do not require a permit to carry or conceal. If a state is so concerned it should be up to them to audit there own checks.
"If the background database info of that person changes later, for example an arrest or conviction is added, then the state will be sent a notification and be required to revoke the concealed carry permit."
The system already works this way. At least in Texas, you can go to the DPS website and see how many permits are revoked at any given time.
" The control number can be looked up later and will match to the personal information that was used to query the background database."
Why do you need a control number? They know who the person is from the ID presented for the issuance of the license. They're not going to take an ID from Scrooge McDuck and issue a license to Mickey Mouse. That's not how it works.
The employee in charge of the background checks could not log into the system, the investigator learned. The problem went unresolved until discovered by another worker in March 2017 — meaning that for more than a year applications got approved without the required background check.
So, even though there was no background check done, this employee signed official government documents stating that it had been done? Isn't that fraud?
Have gnu, will travel.
If you've ever been to a gun show, you've seen them. As a lifelong gun owner,, I've actually purchased guns from these characters.
So you're the one you've been warning us about for years? Huh
And you didn't turn in either the ones you thought were illegally dealing guns, or yourself? Huh.
So your years of complaints and invective on the matter boil down to, "Our system is soooo f-----d! Why the hell isn't anyone arresting me for what I did?"
It seems we've found something that you and the NRA agree on.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
Now that they found out, can we have a number for how many of these approved applications should have been denied?
No sir. My argument boils down to, "I should be allowed to own guns because I'm willing to register them, demonstrate my ability to operate and maintain them and insure them against misuse. And you should not be allowed to own guns because you're a jackoff."
I hope that clears things up.
You are welcome on my lawn.
It was written so slave hunting militias would have weapons to shoot runaway slaves.
You're an idiot. If you want to know the what the "well-regulated militia" was supposed to be for, see what happened to the British army in the battle of Baltimore in the War of 1812.
Yeah, I know, it doesn't help you feel so smugly self-righteous, but there it is.
Seriously, though. You really are an idiot. Really.
Eliminating guns will not fix the essential problem, mainly that I am crazy. If you eliminate guns, then you are going to have to eliminate knives and then large hammers. The problem, is not the guns or the knives or the hammers. It is crazy people like me.
If you think you could walk into a nightclub with a knife or a hammer and kill over 50 people, or kill that many and injure hundreds more from a 32nd floor hotel room hundreds of feet away, well, you really are crazy.
But you're a gun freak, so I suppose that's redundant.
This is a total non-story. People who apply for CCW permits are far more law-abiding than the general population, which of course makes complete sense when you think about it. Criminals and the mentally ill will not bother to fill out government paperwork, because they don't give a shit about laws or society in general.
CCW holders are nobody to be afraid of, unless you're scared of housewives, suburban dads, people whose jobs involve handling lots of cash, people who travel a lot....
And I think you need to be deported for thinking it's ok to require a permission slip to exercise rights. We don't have to get a permit to speak, or worship, or not be thrown in jail without a trial. Fuck you and your permit bullshit.
After working with certificates of various kinds for a few months in my life?
I think the poster is just confused over the terminology. If you get a license, it will most likely already have a "control number". Generally to identify the certificate.
Regardless of if its government or private, or how its done: The more serious organizations always have a control number on their cards, to make look up independent from verifying the information on the piece of paper/plastic.
The less serious vendors might have a printer number on a card, but not a system that enables retrieve any information from the print number.
Which also means you get caught up in the confusion
>They know who the person is from the ID presented for the issuance of the license.
No, they don't.
They have to cross reference the ID, the certificate, and the database. If they have a certificate number, and it works as intended, they only need to check the number to find the database certificates and then see if the holder has a ID to identify himself.
And no worries, things where even worse before things got digital. A proper lookup would take hours of archive searching, IF the archive was sorted properly.
Sounds like you haven't seen government work before. It is similar to welfare, but the employees believe they are accomplishing something.
As a lifelong gun owner,, I've actually purchased guns from these characters.
Not legally in the State of California, where you reside. Private party transfers are essentially banned in the State of California, you must use an FFL dealer as an intermediary. Or did you avoid the FFL? Or buy out-of-State? Both of those would be illegal, too... Only exception would be those antique firearms, which are exempted.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
It strikes me that the manager's head should roll, too, and possibly the manager's manager, as well.
Well managed organizations catch failure on the front lines, and generally sooner rather than later.
And you guys trust government why??? All the Bernie Sanders people want free this and free that while expecting the government can run it all. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it doesn't work in Europe (who else there can't pay their debts today?).
Government is a necessarily evil. If it exists, it must be watched carefully with laws that allow citizens to scrutinize them and hold them accountable. Right now there are virtually no laws that allow a private citizen to hold a public servant accountable for anything. They might get fired but that's about it.
I've only recently moved to California from Houston, you creepy stalky fuck. I've lived all over the US. My gun buying days are behind me. I'm standing pat.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Notice, no "blood in the street" coming from these unchecked permit holders.
Concealed carry holders are a very law abiding group. Statistics have them being, on average, more law abiding than law enforcement.
In spite of decades of data supporting this, politicians love to push for extending background checks.
I hope you registered every single one of those firearms with the State of California, and that all of them (and any accessories such as magazines) are 100% compliant with our laws here. Otherwise you are once again breaking the law.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Well, when the fit hits the shan, now you know where to go. Instead of being an ass, you should be sending pope daddy a couple of cases of creamed corn in cans, some bottled water, and a request to be his friend.
Completely compliant, thank you very much, including with California Penal Code 26150 and 26155.
I believe in citizenship and the rule of law and punching Nazis and all that good American stuff.
You are welcome on my lawn.
You know the rule: Gas, grass or ass, nobody rides for free.
You are welcome on my lawn.
I believe in illegals and the rule of illegal, unconstitutional laws and punching people I don't like while calling them nazis and all that good hypocritical stuff.
Ftfy
Except that if you have your concealed carry permit then you get to walk out with a gun that day. At least that's how it worked when I bought one in Washington.
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." [Thomas Jefferson]
You don't plan a murder and get a Concealed permit. And increase in accident and murder is not instantaneous. Firstly you have to separate "first holder" of gun, and already holder of gun getting a CHP to conceal carry. For rise in murder it is a bit complicated : I do not expect a huge rise in murder if those new licensee are not new gun owner (e.g. they had gun before but now are CHP holder). I do expect more accident and a slight increase of murder (if only because having a gun in some situation may cause escalation and use).
"How many murders and shootings were committed by those unvetted CCW holders? I will guess zero." the huge part of accident, suicide and murder is about *owning* a gun, not having it conceal carry. Conceal carry only increase the probability of usage in some situation, not a huge increase above "owning a gun". As for your nearly zero, you are pulling it out of thin air - not to say from your ass. Without proper study and statistic over a few year , nobody can know the impact now.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
"...potentially allowing drug addicts or people with a mental illness to carry firearms in public..."
Here is a newsflash: having a creditcard-sized piece of plastic didn't "allow" drug addicts or people with mental illnesses to carry firearms. They can and will do so with or without that piece of plastic.
Just a thought: how many of these CCW holders committed crimes in Florida? It's still lower than the general population or even law enforcement.
Seriously, re-run the NICS checks, revoke the permits of those who are prohibited and go seize their firearms as they are prohibited persons.
Just because he moved to California doesn't mean [all] his firearms moved with him. Many folks relocating to California store them just across the state line because many types/models are illegal in California.
He may have stored them all out of state, and then purchased any "new" models in California.
Same with Florida - have a CCW permit, no 3-day waiting period.
Fla. Const. art. I, 8(b); Fla. Stat. 790.0655(2)
Every CCW/CHL/CPL/LTC permit I have (9 states) has a permit number of some sort on them. They are locally-issued and tracked numbers, and nothing to do with NICS. But if someone were to forget one of these, and should a LEO run a check during a traffic stop or other contact with a permittee, they'd be caught because the LEO would use the permit number to obtain the name and address on file, no matter what the permit says, and in the states that require a photograph, they'd probably have that up on their mobile CAD system as well.
So you like to threaten people and assault them, and you like firearms? Sounds like you're a risk, you should turn your firearms over to the local sheriff, you are too dangerous to keep them.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
The Florida Constitution can't override the federal requirement that FFLs use NICS before delivering a firearm. In a lot of cases, the NICS determination is effectively instant.
So background checks were not done for years and nothing bad happened that was directly related. What does that tell you?
We should also use this to see if it mattered that they weren't checked. How many would have been denied but got a CCW and is there a correlation to crime. It could help tell us is this effective or security theater.
If the background database info of that person changes later, for example an arrest or conviction is added, then the state will be sent a notification and be required to revoke the concealed carry permit.
Also, if not done already, CCW permits should need to be updated in person every X years (1, 2, other?). You get a letter in the mail (which would necessitate you updating your address to get it), and you show up with a photo ID and proof of residence.
So even if said conviction notification is missed, there is an upper bound to how long the error will go unnoticed as a check would be done on renewal.
Or split the difference: you need an annual "sticker" (like with car plates) that is mailed to you, but every X years you go in for a new photo (like driver's license).
That makes no sense at all!
Hey look! It's a creepy old boomer leftist! Are they raffling off tickets to your funeral yet?
I was just reading about this actually, and the law states if you have a ccw, you have already passed stringent enough background checks often enough(recurring checks) that you are considered safe to sell a weapon to, considering you're probably carrying at the time anyways.
that is already done.
Only in a few states, Florida not included: https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-...
Well, these weren't for purchases,but for CCL. Even for sales, the number of requests could far exceed sales (people changing mind, double checks) or be drastically under sales (people buying 2 guns at a time).
Your ad here. Ask me how!
Since it wasn't working they just got rid of it. Too much money.
That's a joke... I hope it's not true.
So since Florida did not perform the approval work, they will be refunding the fees, right? RIGHT?
Gotta love slashdot censorship. I posted a clean, reasonably organized comment, complete with data from the Florida site on public sector employee salaries and positions. I didn't post much of that, just a few lines to show the kind of position and salaries being paid, to make my case, which would be termination of not only Wilde, but her direct supervisor at a minimum.
The site I used for the data was a public site, and the data is all public data. (In most states, government employee salary and benefit information is public and is published as required by the laws of that state. Transparency laws that go back in some cases 50 years or more.)
But my post got deleted (CENSORED) by slashdot. There was NO private data in it. It didn't get downgraded, it got DELETED.
How many times have I seen people complain in here that the government should be more transparent? It's not like I even went to Julian Assange level and posted hacked data......
Well, for those of you that may be interested, here's the site where you can see how much the state was probably paying Wilde to fail. Wilde no longer works there, but it's really easy to find the others from the report, and to find Wilde's replacement.
http://salaries.myflorida.com/?utf8=%E2%9C%93&by_name=&by_agency=Agriculture+and+Consumer+Svcs&greater_than_salary=&less_than_salary=&by_class_code=&button=
And as for the slashdot censor nazi, you know where you really belong.
The ATF takes this stuff very seriously, and there's a running "joke" in the firearms community that you do not screw around with the AFT. They're the like the IRS: A whiff of blood and you're shark food.
There are clear rules surrounding what constitutes "dealing" and merely being a private seller with a large collection. It's mostly around the number of sales per year and how your sales are conducted. The AFT does in fact conduct stings and investigations to catch people doing illegal dealing. No, they don't catch all of them. No criminal activity is 100% caught by law enforcement.
Besides, most illegal sales are done at stores with checks by a person who can pass the checks, on behalf of a person who cannot. Straw purchases are illegal. They're also very hard to catch. A lot harder than illegal dealers.
Don't be a troll. You know exactly what he means and you even admit as much.
YES, he means private sales. and don't fool yourself. There are people who act as unlicensed dealers and they often operate at or around gun shows.
Those aren't gun-owners who just happen to want to sell a gun from their own private collection. Some of them are doing it for profit and acting outside the law. You can whine all you want when people call it a "gun show loophole", but it is a way around background checks and if you think that's not one avenue for felons to get guns you are horribly naive.
Your argument is shit.
Do you need to demonstrate your ability to think, understand the issues, know who the candidates are, and operating the voting machine in order to vote?
You should not be allowed to vote because you're mentally retarded. (Which also means you should not be allowed to own guns.)