Chrome Beats Edge and Firefox in 'Browser Benchmark Battle: July 2018' -- Sometimes (venturebeat.com)

An anonymous reader quotes VentureBeat: It's been more than 20 months since our last browser benchmark battle, and we really wanted to avoid letting two years elapse before getting a fresh set of a results. Google Chrome, Mozilla Firefox, and Microsoft Edge have all improved significantly over the past year and a half, and as I've argued before, the browser wars are back. You can click on the individual test to see the results:

SunSpider: Edge wins!
Octane: Chrome wins!
Kraken: Firefox wins!
JetStream: Edge wins!
MotionMark: Edge wins!
Speedometer: Chrome wins!
BaseMark: Chrome wins!
WebXPRT: Firefox wins!
HTML5Test: Chrome wins!

Chrome looks to be ahead of the pack according to these tests. That said, browser performance was solid across all three contestants, and it shouldn't be your only consideration when picking your preferred app for consuming internet content.
Chrome wins in four tests, beating Edge's three wins, and Firefox's two wins.

Comments

obviously

[AlexanKulbashian]

If Firefox and Edge inhaled as much memory as Chrome, i'm sure they might also perform a little better

Re: obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

Any test where Edge comes up first... MUST be flawed!

Re: obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe. but then edge and firefox dont need to have gotten any better to start winning the tests. given how much worse chrome has gotten in recent months.

Re:obviously

[Z00L00K]

Today I'm usually less worried about performance and more about feedback, privacy, security and stability of the browser.

What I really miss in the Microsoft browsers is the feedback about what the heck it's waiting for - or if it's still waiting for a server response.

Re:obviously

[thegarbz]

If Firefox and Edge inhaled as much memory as Chrome, i'm sure they might also perform a little better

Then they should do it. RAM is cheap. It's in my system to be used as fast as possible. Cache the Jeebus out of websites if you have to. My server has 32GB of RAM currently with 31GB actively used for by the filesystem for caching.

Low memory footprint is something for RaspberryPis, not desktops. Give me speed!

Oh good, more useless benchmark contests.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the most useful modern web benchmarks are of no use at all to end users, save to know if a given browser version handles their particular drivers better than others. Even for browser vendors these are only marginally useful to detect performance regressions (and only a couple of them are truly helpful in that regard, while HTML5Test is of no use to anyone).

Re:Oh good, more useless benchmark contests.

[Excelcia]

Not sure why the parent was modded down. This isn't inaccurate. When was the last time that browser rendering speed was the rate limiting step in how fast something displayed. Or, if it was the rate limiting step, when was the last time that the difference in rendering speed between two browsers was even relevant in a time scale beyond an eyeblink?

Re:Oh good, more useless benchmark contests.

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct. Very, very few people choose their browser based on rendering speed. They're all pretty fast and the differences aren't meaningful to daily usage. What is important is:

1) Familiarity. People will naturally go with what they already know.
2) Stability. Crashy browsers will turn people to others.
3) Plugin support.
4) Privacy features.

Browser benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

Please tell me again why time-based browser benchmarks matter at all, when the differences are measured in milliseconds.

Re: Browser benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

Because browser developers are of the view that there is an inverse relationship between average load time for their browser and penis size.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[gweihir]

They don't. But since most people (including the ones publishing such benchmarks) really do not understand anything about browsers or what matters and what does not, we will get these demented comparisons for the foreseeable future.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[Dutch Gun]

One issue that matters to me is responsiveness and perceptible speed of the browser UI. In my experience, Firefox beat out Chrome in this regard, as the Chrome UI had a few noticeable stutters under heavy load, while the Firefox browser stayed responsive. That's probably not going to show up in a benchmark of any sort, as it's a very subjective experience.

I had briefly considered switching to Chrome after Mozilla pulled it's "Mr Robot" plugin stunt, and so I tried it out for a while. It was a pretty slight margin, but Firefox just *felt* faster to me, likely because of UI responsiveness. But beyond that, I missed a few of Firefox's minor quality-of-life features. Edge seems very much a take-it-or-leave-it experience. Firefox is becoming more like that, but still not as much as with Chrome.

And whatever problems Mozilla may have, and whatever idiotic decisions they still make, I still trust their motives more than Google or MS.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

They are irrelevant. The most important features of a browser are: display web pages, have many extensions, respect the user's privacy. Edge and Chrome fail on the last point. Use Firefox with ad- and script-blockers, it just works.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[mcswell]

The reason is...well...it's because...err...well, you know...um...I dunno.

All seriousness aside, my choice of browsers (Firefox) is because it's easier to use, because it has a _real_ menu system, and because I can make configuration changes that I need.

Chrome has none of this. I can't use the backspace key because G, in its wisdom, knows better; I might some day be filling out a form, and accidentally hit the backspace key, resulting in backing out of the form instead of erasing a single character. (That's never happened to me using FF.) Yes, does the same thing, but that's a *much* less convenient set of keystrokes.

And I can't open a new tab in Chrome using FT, I have to mouse some icon. (Yes, thank you, I am a keyboard user.) I suppose there's some other keystroke in Chrome, -something-or-other, but I don't know what it is, and anyway it conflicts with other uses of keys.

My bookmarks: I imported my Firefox bookmarks, but they're buried somewhere way down in Chrome's lousy hamburger excuse; again, maybe there's some way I can quickly get there, but I don't see it. Bookmarks Bar, you say? Let's see, the reason for removing the Title Bar was to give me more vertical space for the web page I'm reading. So I want to give that space back for a lousy toolbar? Why can't I have the bookmarks *directly* accessible from a menu? Any reasonable application (like Firefox) allows you to do that.

At work, where my choices are Internet Explorer or Chrome (which is the only reason I have any experience with Chrome), I go to Sharepoint (yuch, but I'm stuck with it) and try to open an Excel doc. It comes up inside Chrome in some kind of marginally useful spreadsheet-in-browser applet. I can never do anything I want in that applet, so I invariably tell Chrome to open the spreadsheet in a real copy of Excel. Extra keystrokes to get there, despite the fact that I always know I'll need to do it.

None of the above would be a problem if Chrome offered any options. Redefine keystrokes? Nope. Rapid access to my bookmarks? Nope. Automatically open Excel files in Excel? Nope.

Who cares if Chrome is marginally faster at opening web pages? Not me!

Re:Browser benchmarks

[tsa]

About FF's quality-of-life features: you know what I hate? That if you accidentally or purposefully close the last tab, the whole browser just disappears. All browsers except Firefox do this. That alone is reason enough for me to keep using FF.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried Chrome. Installed it. Ran it. What a crock of shit. Lasted about 30 seconds. Deleted it.

Chrome is the most dysfunctional, demented and ugly piece of shit I have ever had the displeasure of using in my entire life, with the worst UI I have ever seen in my life. Edge is not even in the running -- it is completely and totally useless and almost entirely non-configurable (Chrome is only very very very very slightly better).

Re:Browser benchmarks

[MrL0G1C]

You probably set an option aeons ago, I think a fresh Firefox install also closes the browser. But still, Firefox (Waterfox here) gives you the option.

I prefer Waterfox because it allows me to keep the classic look whilst having multiple processes. Which leads to the question - if Waterfox can do this then why can't Firefox?

Re:Browser benchmarks

[tepples]

What else is the browser supposed to do visually when the user has closed the last tab? Keep the window open with no tabs in it? Keep the application open with no windows open? Other than macOS, does any major PC GUI operating system even have a concept of an application remaining open after its last window is closed?

Re:Browser benchmarks

[thegarbz]

One issue that matters to me is responsiveness and perceptible speed of the browser UI

The browser UI? Why are you using the browser UI? Do you use the Windows UI or the applications within it? :-)

I know what you mean, but these days the interaction I have with things are very much within the rendering window of the Browser. The Browser is a glorified alt+tab alternative. Increasing Javascript performance means increasing UI speed of things people actively use including Office365, Gmail, Facebook, etc.

Re:Browser benchmarks

[Anonymous Coward]

How about a homescreen with a bunch of flashing advertising?

You rotten bastards like & use my work... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Your software is just fine - well written, functional... I'm going to continue using the Host File Engine by mmell February 17, 2017

Your premise that hostfiles are a good way to deal with advertising and malvertising is quite valid - by JazzLad April 20, 2016

his hosts program is actually pretty good by xenotransplant August 10 2015

his hosts tool is actually useful for those cases in which one does indeed want to locally block stuff outright while consuming minimum system resources by alexgieg September 25 2015

I like your host file system by Karmashock September 09 2015

that APK guy, I use his host file by rogoshen1 Tuesday March 03, 2015

I personally use a HOSTS file blocker produced from a genius called APK by 110010001000 October 27 2017

* Best part = Linux 64-bit model's faster/more efficient (2x work in 1/2 the time)

APK

P.S.=> For a faster/safer/more reliable internet. Even you rotten bastards can benefit from my greatness. God's gift to Slashdot will NEVER be silenced... apk

Aw, poor little Juden shekelboy, lol... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: Don't worry - the "Golden Calf" of your shekels dries up! I give folks what they want vs. your machinations, lol & THUS I always will win... & you KNOW it.

* Heck - you're PROVING IT via your EASILY NULLIFIED "Bitch Tactics 'efforts'" which I easily prove are you in seconds by posting your PUNY threats... lmao!

(You really ARE too STUPID to live... time to FIRE UP THE OVENS again & Zyklon B showers).

Ever see Dr, Strange? Keep it up, that's EXACTLY what I want "JudenMammu" - you're MY prisoner.

LASTLY Don't speak for "Everyone" JUDE - you're the HATED minority ALL THRU HISTORY only fooling YOURSELVES, lol - self deluded morons & thieves.

APK

P.S.=> Dance little Jude, dance - to MY TUNE as I see you lose all that STOLEN GOLD/SHEKELS, lol - slowly (oh, SO slowly, painfully, as your kind fell into your OWN trap of debt, lol)... apk

Re:You rotten bastards like & use my work... a

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you considered medication?

So?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not entirely concerned with the speed of the browser, at this point the speed difference is in the unnoticeable order of milliseconds.

My primary concern is advertisers and bitcoin miners tracking me or utilizing my machine. In this regards firefox wins hands down because Google and Microsoft both have vested interests in making a dirty browser which serves them but appears to serve us the user.

Until these companies change their souls to be better citizens within our society I will never allow their products upon my machine, it is too much unknown risk for no reward. They have only themselves and their actions to blame for burning through their goodwill karma with the public, google most especially given how beloved it once was.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Firefox stuck Pocket in there which tracks you, despite the fact that nobody wanted it. There are rumors that someone in Mozilla had a financial interest in doing so as well. Why trust them any more than the other two?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are rumors that someone in Mozilla had a financial interest in doing so

Yeah, they were paid by Google.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

I trust them more than the other two inherently, they have less motivation to put out a dirty browser than any of their competitors.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

There are rumors that someone in Mozilla had a financial interest in doing so

Yeah, they were paid by Google.

This is something that people tend to forget (or maybe don't know). Mozilla gets nearly all of its revenue from Google.

Google is currently paying Mozilla more than $300 Million a year. Google has paid Mozilla somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 Billion over the past 10+ years.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

They have only themselves and their actions to blame for burning through their goodwill karma with the public, google most especially given how beloved it once was.

What exactly did google do to "burn through their goodwill"? As far as I can tell, what they did was: grow.

Sure they've abandoned a few products people liked, and had a couple of stupid privacy errors (notably Wifi data collection and Safari tracking setting defeating -- both now many years in the past), and they got eavesdropped on by the NSA for a while, until Snowden let them know and they started encrypting everything. But they haven't changed their targeted advertising business model, if anything they've moved away from it a bit, since it now only constitutes 90% of their revenue, rather than 100%. The data collection that drives the targeted advertising hasn't really gotten any more pervasive, and it's now been several years that they've offered ways to opt out of it. They've proven incredibly good at preventing user data from leaking. With respect to privacy from government Google invented the notion of the transparency report, and negotiated permission to be allowed to reveal statistics about National Security Letters, which come with a total gag order by default.

I don't see what they've done to burn goodwill. Except be successful.

I can understand people who just fundamentally object to advertising, especially targeted advertising. But that has always been Google's business, so that can't be the source of the recent loss of goodwill. Similarly, I see a fair amount of angst about targeted advertising in Gmail but again that's been the case since the product launched in 2004. So, what has Google done in the last 5-10 years that burned through the goodwill?

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Snowden revelations have shown that the NSA had direct fiber-optics access to Google's data centers and it's overall hard to believe that Google was only a victim and simply was unable to secure their data centers well enough. Moreover, people have realized over the years that they are Google's asset, not their costumers, and their growth therefore raises legitimate concerns. Any other successful company whose business model is selling their users' data would be equally problematic. Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon are problematic companies.

Re: So?

[im_thatoneguy]

Microsoft has a massive financial disincentive to monetize the small edge revenue possible vs the huge cost of people ditching Windows.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Snowden revelations have shown that the NSA had direct fiber-optics access to Google's data centers and it's overall hard to believe that Google was only a victim and simply was unable to secure their data centers well enough

Actually, the NSA was tapping lines between Google data centers, so it's perfectly reasonable to believe that Google didn't know about it. And they were able to secure the data once they realized there was an issue, by encrypting all of the traffic.

Moreover, people have realized over the years that they are Google's asset, not their costumers, and their growth therefore raises legitimate concerns.

Google's business model didn't change, so you're saying that it just took time for people to figure out what it was? I suppose...

Any other successful company whose business model is selling their users' data would be equally problematic.

Google doesn't sell users' data.

Re:So?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just don't log in to pocket then.

I have verified with wireshark that it does not call home, compared to Google Chrome which does (as does Chromium in newer versions aswell, and do I even need to comment on Edge?).

first?

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe first, maybe not

Hmmm

[hcs_$reboot]

Safari missing? Nice of you, it is based on good intentions I presume.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Safari is a rounding error, only MAC weirdos have even heard of it. You don't want to be a weirdo do you?

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Safari doesn't support modern web standards. It's a has-been. It's not cross-platform and Apple doesn't provide a virtual machine with Safari for developers on other platforms. Its performance matters as much as the performance of IE6: not at all. Captcha: manure

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Better to be a weirdo than an unwashed Linux nurd.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Better to be a weirdo than an unwashed Linux nurd.

You misspelled "turd"

Re:Hmmm

[DontBeAMoran]

And to us, Edge is the rounding error that only Windows 10 weirdos would ever want to use.

Re:Hmmm

[DontBeAMoran]

Maybe he's a Linux nurd himself?

Re:Hmmm

[dk20]

according to this, there isnt a whole lot of OSX / IOS safari users.

https://www.netmarketshare.com...?

on the desktop windows is like 88% with OSX being arond 9% (still much higerh then the "linux weirdos" as was posted earlier.

on mobile devices, android is 70% vs 26% ios.

Clearly no one "wants" to use Edge.. unfortuntly like all instances of windows, there really isnt a way to uninstall that peice of crap.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

A quick'n'dirty safari test for the first half dozen before I got bored
Sunspider: second to edge
Octane: came first
Kraken: came first
Jetstream: came first
Motionmark: came first
Speedometer: came first

Re:Hmmm

[Shirley Marquez]

It is impossible to do an apples to Apples comparison between Edge and Safari because they don't run on the same OS. These benchmarks chose to concentrate on the OS with the larger market share.

Re:Hmmm

[thegarbz]

I tired Safari once, but I couldn't figure out how to install it on Windows 10.

Re:Hmmm

[hcs_$reboot]

VirtualBox

Re:Hmmm

[thegarbz]

I'm sure that will do wonders for its performance.

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that need battling, is the bloated "web"!
An ad blocker was the biggest speed improvement that actually meant something in the last years.
Blocking stupid visual effects (like 3D animations and background videos) should get the web back to mostly smooth even in the slowest browser.
And the most ideal solution, not abusing the web to run applocations in the mother of all inner-platform effect software design anti-patterns, would mean a super-smooth web experience even in Mozilla 0.6 from 2001!

Re:Who cares?

[tepples]

And the most ideal solution, not abusing the web to run applocations in the mother of all inner-platform effect software design anti-patterns

What would you recommend instead? Writing the applications in Java and requiring everyone to download a Java VM? Writing the applications in Python and requiring everyone to download a Python interpreter? Writing the applications in Swift or Objective-C and requiring everyone to buy a Mac?

Also, crazy RAM usage and spyware

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah it beats Firefox in a lot of things. Worth considering before you switch for that ultimate +5% performance on some irrelevant Javascript rendering test.

It's come to this.

[Anonymous Coward]

the performance metric we crave is if your computer and load Facebook in 8 seconds or 5 seconds.

Marketing value of browsers

[Anonymous Coward]

Identification of the browser in use is great for profiling the user.

Edge: Luddite
Safari: Sucker
Chrome: Consult private information
Firefox: Move on to the next

Re:Marketing value of browsers

[darkain]

And then there is Opera: most supported rendering engine (Blink), with the advantage of having ad-block and VPN built in without plugins.

My favorite browser is ... GNU/Linux. :)

[Anonymous Coward]

What? It is an operating system too! And a much better one.

Also LSB/Posix > HTML5! ;)

Too bad there is no good HTTP client that doesn't try to be a viewer too, but is merely an interface, ideally mountable in the VFS as /net/... or something else that's elegant and modular and doesn't re-invent the wheel.

Re: My favorite browser is ... GNU/Linux. :)

[Anonymous Coward]

What?

Doesn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would I willingly install anything from Google on my computers?

Re:Doesn't Matter

[gweihir]

You must be one of these "cyberterrorists" I keep hearing so much about! Nobody else has anything to hide, after all. I think they should lock you up immediately, or better, "accidentally" kill you on arrest.

Re:Doesn't Matter

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah .... because your bank account information is something nobody wants to hide from Google.

Here is a clue .... did you know that Android's stock keyboard sends to the mothership a packet of 256 bytes in size 4000 times per day? How is that not the definition of a keylogger? And what can an Android user do? Switch the keyboard to ANOTHER keylogger from an unknown company.

Re:Doesn't Matter

[gweihir]

Irony challenged AC is irony challenged.

Hosts makes any browser faster & safer

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & APK Hosts File Engine 2.0++ 64-bit for Linux h t t p : / / a p k . i t - m a t e . c o . u k / A P K H o s t s F i l e E n g i n e F o r L i n u x . z i p (remove spaces between characters & download).

Yields more security/speed/reliability/anonymity vs. any SINGLE solution (99% of threats usehostnames vs. IP addresses most firewalls use) more efficiently/FASTER + NATIVELY 4 less!

(Vs. "Bolt on 'MoAr' illogic-logic" competitors slowing you, hosts speed you up 2 ways (adblocks + hardcodes u spend most time @) vs. competition loaded w/ security bugs (DNS/AntiVir) + overheads (messagepass ('souled-out' to advertiser addons) + filtering drivers) & their complexity leads to exploitation).

* ONLY 1 of its kind in GUI on Linux!

Better vs. Windows model in speed/efficiency/merge.

APK

P.S.=> Best program of its kind bar-none & better vs. browser addons + other competitors (full of bugs, excess resource use, slowdown & complexity)... apk

Registered /.ers review of the Win64 model

[Anonymous Coward]

Your software is just fine - well written, functional... I'm going to continue using the Host File Engine by mmell February 17, 2017

Your premise that hostfiles are a good way to deal with advertising and malvertising is quite valid - by JazzLad April 20, 2016

his hosts program is actually pretty good by xenotransplant August 10 2015

his hosts tool is actually useful for those cases in which one does indeed want to locally block stuff outright while consuming minimum system resources by alexgieg September 25 2015

I like your host file system by Karmashock September 09 2015

that APK guy, I use his host file by rogoshen1 Tuesday March 03, 2015

I personally use a HOSTS file blocker produced from a genius called APK by 110010001000 October 27 2017

* Best part = Linux 64-bit model's faster/more efficient (2x work & 1/2 the time)

APK

P.S.=> For a faster/safer/more reliable internet... apk

Re: You rotten bastards like & use my work...

[Anonymous Coward]

Man..... You've been active lately! Kinda miss you after a while but looks like you're back and getting busier than ever!

Keep up the good work!

A snail is superior to a human in all these tests

[Anonymous Coward]

Snail versus human benchmarks:

Ability to secrete a slimy trail... winner:
  snail!

Ability to grow your own home and wear it on your back... winner:

Snail!

Ability to be full-grown and weigh less that 1 pound... winner:

SSSNNNAAAIILLLL!!!

In the browser battle, similarly, Mozilla Firefox beat the living fuck out of Edge in the not being some shit from Microsoft test, and beat Chrome just as badly in the equally important not being some shit from Google, (of Go Right On Ahead And Be Evil fame) test. That makes Firefox... pretty much number 1.

An extension benchmark would be better.

[xack]

And Waterfox would be the winner due to XUL and web extensions supported.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on the benchmark. It would completely fail if security, maintainability, or the number of users who give a shit were metrics. It would certainly easily mop the floor in the "vocal users who bring it up constantly like it matters more than anything else" category.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[KiloByte]

Depends on the benchmark. It would completely fail if security,

Bullshit. These days, conventional exploits hardly matter -- blackhats (NSA and Russian mafia) don't reveal their toys, so these get fixed only when noticed by someone else, and that happens with similar speed for all major browsers. What counts is prevention, and for that you need powerful extensions. These exist only for XUL as webext doesn't expose sufficient APIs to allow blocking crap. Ergo, Waterfox and Firefox <=56 run circles security-wise around Google-Spyware, Microsoft-Spyware, and Firefox Quantum.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, and then you realize that Waterfox and the legacy tech your addons rely on aren't being proactively vetted by security experts, are increasingly based on old Firefox code that isn't properly maintained, and the very addons you're so proud of are even worse off for that wear because even fewer people are verifying that they still do what they're supposed to do, because almost nobody is carefully reviewing them (not even automated tools).

But hey, it's much easier to just make believe that your as-yet unnamed addons are critical for security, and they were not already ported to WebExtensions because of some as-yet unnamed APIs are "necessary" to do the job. Not to mention pretending that people are running Waterfox for those addons, and not endless UI-tweaking or DownThemAll or SessionManager. No, it must be for some unmentioned security purposes, and "prevention" amounts to using a tool built by a couple of people based on decaying code running with escalated privileges.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[serviscope_minor]

These exist only for XUL as webext doesn't expose sufficient APIs to allow blocking crap. Ergo, Waterfox and Firefox

Given I'm running uBlock origin and NoScript on Firefox 60, I suspect your assessment may not be accurate.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[Anonymous Coward]

How many times does it have to be repeated? The versions that run on non-XUL Firefox are HEAVILY STRIPPED DOWN VERSIONS. WebExtension-based NoScript is missing a ton of features XUL-based NoScript had, including a lot of stuff to prevent CSRF and XSS. I don't know enough about uBlock Origin to know what it had to lose to make it onto WebExtension Firefox, but given the stuff WebExtension NoScript flat-out can't do, I'd imagine it's a fair amount.

WebExtension doesn't allow flat-out blocking of content. At best it can HIDE content after it's been loaded. This means that WebExtension NoScript can't actually block scripts - it can only retroactively remove <script> tags and attributes after they've been loaded, which means there's a brief bit of time scripts can freely run. I know that ad blockers on WebExtension Firefox very noticeably start with all ads loaded and then remove them after the fact - they can't flat-out block them like they used to in XUL Firefox.

The simple fact is that the current Firefox is less powerful than older versions, and that makes it less secure.

Re:An extension benchmark would be better.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah yes, but you have a truly sucky UI. The plugins which "fix" the UI to make it useable only work on ESR ...

Not sure why

[rsilvergun]

but benchmarks or not Chrome "feels" faster than Firefox these days. As for IE, it's JavaScript compiler is dog slow so pages take forever to load, making the entire experience pretty rough since pages still transition a lot (AngularJS and one page sites haven't really taken over like everybody thought they would...)

Re:Not sure why

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because you had a lot of content cached on the Chrome side of things, while trying out a fresh Firefox install just to see. Chrome also uses twice the amount of RAM. And it tells Google of every single web page you view as well!

With the huge amount of web- and buffer-bloat on the internet today, you can't really tell which browser is supposedly faster these days.

Re:Not sure why

[Anonymous Coward]

Not generally true anymore. Chrome feels more sluggish then Firefox, Safari, or even Edge for a looooot of users. And not because of "crufty profiles" or "bad drivers" or "too little RAM" or other classic excuses, either. It's frankly starting to show its age, even if it still has a lot of life left in it.

In fact Google is even artificially crippling other browsers by using not-ready-yet technologies in their own web services which only Chromium supports well. See for instance their use of Web Components in the newest YouTube redesign, which makes it much slower and more RAM-intensive on other browsers.

Long gone are the days where Chrome was genuinely king on its own merits, just like the days when Google cared to make cross-browser web apps instead of barely paying lip service to any browser but their own. About the only non-artificial benefits it has left to its own name now are site isolation and their JS debugger.

Re:Not sure why

[KiloByte]

Sounds like AdBlock/uMatrix fail. No one cares about that hundred megs of Javascript crapware if you don't load it.

Re:Not sure why

[Anonymous Coward]

It's funny, I was just thinking the opposite. I had been using Vivaldi (based on Chromium) for a time and had no real complaints with it, but decided to give Firefox another go and everything from UI responsiveness to page loading feels faster in Firefox. That may or may not be borne out in benchmarking tests, but what matters for me is my perception of which is faster. Not that I have anything bad to say about Vivaldi, but Firefox just seems better in completely non-scientific and completely subjective comparisons done by me. People should just use whichever browser seems better to them.

Re:Not sure why

[SNRatio]

Could you make a Firefox plugin that replaces stock images on websites with the top result of a google image search for "stick figure" plus the title of the stock image?

"stick figure" Trump. "stick figure" Kanye.

The web would be so much better.

Impersonating me? Please... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: You impersonating me proves you wish you were me & imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - but you = poor imitation.

* You even "threatened me" by promising you would impersonate me as you STALKED ME too by your UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous trollings of myself also https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Grow up & do something useful w/ yourself ... apk

Misleading Graphs

[Anonymous Coward]

A few of the graphs are not from zero and make the differences seem much bigger than they a really are.

Have you? Take your own advice

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject: As you STALK me by UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous OR IMPERSONATING ME you admit you do https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

* Take YOUR medication, loony boy...

APK

P.S.=> Grow up & seek professional psychiatric help for your OBSESSION/MANIA you have with me, ok? For your own sake... apk

penis bird

[Anonymous Coward]

the penis bird welcomes you

Who cares? Seriously...

[gweihir]

Browser speed is not a factor today. The only reason for these comparisons is that most people do not have what it takes to do more than compare a (meaningless) number.

Re:Who cares? Seriously...

[thegarbz]

Browser speed is not a factor today

Ahhh someone who still uses MS Office. Get with the program man the browser Javascript speed is directly related to how complicated and fast the modern version of the "application" works. If Office365 can have less UI lag then go for it.

If this were a discussion of Linux kernel outperforming the Windows kernel you'd be all over that. Time to give up on the idea of a web browser showing some text on a screen and time to face the reality of modern computing that is the glorified thin client running a browser based "OS"

Re: Introducing RaceRelationsDot

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up white boy this is MY country now

One word

[SuperKendall]

Safari doesn't support modern web standards.

One word:

WebKit.

Given other browsers and sheer number of mobile devices as well that use WebKit, Safari *is* the definition of the modern web standard. If your site does not work properly and perform well on Safari, it is broken - end of story.

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahaha, no.

Chrome isn't based on WebKit any more (as in, changes to WebKit will never make it into Chrome, as they've completely split the codebase) and WebKit is a rounding error these days, limited to downloading Chrome on Macs and iPhones that make up something like 5% of all smartphone users.

If your website doesn't work on WebKit, it's probably because you're using new standards that WebKit either never bothered implementing or hasn't bothered moving out of "experimental" state yet. (In other words, requires a -webkit- prefix, despite prefixes being deprecated for years at this point.)

These days, web developers target two browsers: Chrome and IE. All others (including, ironically, Edge) might as well not exist.

Re:One word

[hcs_$reboot]

web developers target two browsers: Chrome and IE

IE? Thanks for the fun!

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Almost everybody on mobile uses Chrome, which is not stuck with Webkit. The rest use Opera (with Chrome's Blink rendering engine) and Firefox (also not Webkit). Safari has failed to keep up and Apple's refusal to make the browser available for testing by developers on other platforms has made sure that Safari's antique rendering engine isn't tested against. Safari is still relevant if you target Mac and iPhone users specifically, but people targeting the general public do not care about Safari anymore.

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

One word:

applecantcodeforshit.

And you are an idiot for even suggesting they can.

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah ... they use Chrome because they have no real choice. It is the garbage that comes with their cheap and unsecured Android phone.

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

web developers target two browsers: Chrome and IE

IE? Thanks for the fun!

I still find a lot of websites that don't display properly unless I spoof my useragent and say that I'm using Internet Explorer.

Changing the way a web page display based solely on useragent is so completely fucking retarded it's just mind boggling.

Re:One word

[Anonymous Coward]

Do let us know what it means to "jailbreak" an iphone... doesnt that imply gaining ROOT access on the "secure" phone?

You base your view of "quality" on how much it cost? how quant.

Good thing apple has those fantastic profit margins to make you feel you got a "quality product" and not something "made in china". Thanfkullly they will just take your money and push it to their offshore bank account for Apple to stash another billion from the IRS.

Re:One word

[tepples]

Almost everybody on mobile uses Chrome, which is not stuck with Webkit.

As I understand SuperKendall's posting history, he's referring to the "sheer number of mobile devices as well that" are "stuck with WebKit". StatCounter claims that Safari and other WebKit wrappers made up half of all mobile page views in the United States over the past month: 50.84% Safari, 41.63% Chrome, 4.88% Samsung Internet, and less than 1% each for Puffin, Firefox, UC Browser, Opera, etc.

Re: Introducing RaceRelationsDot

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up cracka. Yo momma ass is mine. I gun fuck duh shit out of dat phat booty!

IE 6?

[Billly Gates]

What about IE6 performance? It's the PHB ultimate browser as Chrome makes his internet's sites on the LAN look funny

Interface is more important

[Stormwatch]

A difference of microseconds doesn't matter if the program has a shitty user interface. Firefox is the only one of those three that has a proper interface -- after you restore the title and menu bars, that is. No, cramming the menu bar into a goddamn hamburger button is never acceptable for a desktop application.

Re:Interface is more important

[williamyf]

Amen.

At least in mac, the menu bar is there by default all the time (os imposed), so there is nothing to restore in that front.

HAving said that, I like my tabs in the title bar (even with the 16:10 display of the mac, vertical space is at a premium these days).

On the other hand, I hate how firefox dicks around with the buttons on the interface. Lucky for me, I am in the ESR channel, so this happens only once a year, not every six weeks (chrome), or every six months (edge).

Re:Interface is more important

[theCoder]

With vertical space at a premium, you should look into the Tree Style Tab extension for Firefox. It puts your tabs down the side, and also organizes them in a tree structure, so that new tabs open under the tab they were opened from. You can collapse groups of tabs as needed. Personally, I don't know why all the major browsers keep tabs on the top. With widescreeen monitors (at least on desktops/laptops), tabs on the side makes much more sense.

Of course, I had to stay on FF56 to avoid losing my TST extension, though I think the latest version of FF re-enables some features to allow it to work properly again.

Re:Interface is more important

[tepples]

With widescreeen monitors (at least on desktops/laptops), tabs on the side makes much more sense.

Not if you're splitting your 1920x1080p display down the middle to show two 960px-wide windows.

Re:Interface is more important

[Stormwatch]

It's kind of pathetic that 1920x1080p is still standard when cell phones have better resolutions.

Re:Interface is more important

[thegarbz]

What interface? All you need is tabs and a scroll bar. The rest of the interface is dependent on the "apps" that you run in your browser these days, and Office365 looks the same on Firefox and Chrome.

Re:Impersonating me AGAIN? Please... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, YES I have a micropenis, but personality is what girls REALLY care about, so you = pathetic.

APK

P.S.=> Burger King or Taco Bell for lunch? Can't decide lol ... apk

Can we just agree that it doesn't matter?

[DalM]

There are a few websites -particular specialty government websites- that don't work right with this browser or that one, but for the most part, everything works fine regardless of browser.

So who cares?

Impersonating me YET again? Please... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

You impersonating me proves you wish you were me & imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - but you = poor imitation.

* You "threaten"you'd impersonate me as you STALKED ME via UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous trollings of me too https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Grow up & do something useful w/ yourself loser... apk

Re: Impersonating me YET again? Please... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

It is true; I wish I were you. How can I be you?

Re: Impersonating me YET again? Please... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

Write shitty code, threaten to sue people based on no evidence, and spam forums pretending you and the software you create are important.

that's how you become APK. Beware though, once you have fully transformed, people of the opposite sex will find you hideous and unattractive. And people of the same sex will just laugh at you. People in your career field, they will mock you.

Choose wisely.

8=====SUPPLIES!========D

[Anonymous Coward]

wheel of penis!

Firefox isn't Chrome or Edge

[Anonymous Coward]

So Firefox WINS!

Wasn't I (stalker impersonates me)... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & his PUNY 'threat' to do so https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

* Gotta say it (as it's FAST becoming "tradition): It's NOT EASY being "World-Class" (like ME, lol) - See the things you put up with in UNIDENTFIABLE anonymous JEALOUS "Lil' Jowie" WASTE OF LIFE "ne'er-do-wells" STALKING me OR IMPERSONATING ME?

APK

P.S.=> Makes me laugh - as I find it UNBELIEVABLE anyone would WASTE THEIR TIME (well, perhaps not - the one doing IS a WASTE OF LIFE) that way... apk

Matters?

[markdavis]

They go to all that effort to benchmark and don't even list the versions of the freaking browsers. Plus, only MS-Windows... no Linux, no MacOS. (And they didn't use a zero scale on several of the graphs.)

In any case, I am not sure it matters. Looks to me like all three were fast. Other factors probably matter more now...

I am much more concerned with using a browser that is truly open-source, multiplatform, tries to respect privacy as much as possible, and community driven. I guess you know which browser I am using (because only one of those three matches).

Intrusiveness: Chrome wins!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or was it Edge?

Chrome is obviously the better choice..

[Anonymous Coward]

WHEN it works..

Re:Where's Safari?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its off the charts!!!!

Way down at the bottom somewhere.

I just don't care

[Anonymous Coward]

Google's browser could be twice as fast as anything else and I STILL WOULD NOT USE CHROME. It actively works against your better interests.

I don't run an ad blocker

[rsilvergun]

in either browser. If ads are annoying me I stop going to the site.

Re:I don't run an ad blocker

[KiloByte]

These days, most sites don't have a single source of annoying ads -- they have several. There's no option but to block those, and the war against spammers (ads are a form of spam) is going so badly that opt-out blocking is a losing proposition, you need opt-in.

Re:Edge is a winner

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah .... because Edge is the one with thousands of plugins full of malware and cryptoware in their database.

Oh ... never mind.

Huge FF improvment in the last year

[Anonymous Coward]

Very noticeable. I hope they stay focused on performance.

Impersonating me STILL yet again? apk

[Anonymous Coward]

You impersonating me proves you wish you were me & imitation is the sincerest form of flattery - but you = poor imitation.

* You "threaten"you'd impersonate me as you STALKED ME via UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous trollings of me too https://yro.slashdot.org/comme...

APK

P.S.=> Grow up & do something useful w/ yourself, loser... apk

Results

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm too lazy to look at the results for each test. Anyone out there kind enough to post them? I'm guessing that the delta between the different browsers was very small on each test, below the human perception threshold, and that these tests don't reflect "real world" conditions where a dev may have really badly written code.

Beginning to like Edge

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing how much RAM Chrome consumes and not exactly in love with Firefox Quantum. I began to use Edge more and more and it's really OK. After seeing what Google is doing to Chrome in Canary and its awful UI redesign which I already know is horrible. I am definitely seeing my future browser being Edge at this stage, unless Firefox comes through eventually which I doubt at this point.

Speed isn't the biggest problem

[sremick]

So basically some Chrome fanboy is paranoid about articles such as the one at The Verge which outline the far bigger problem with Chrome, and so it trying to deflect attention: "Hey, look! Chrome is 0.001ms faster than Firefox (sometimes)!"

https://www.theverge.com/2018/...

It seems people have started to just lazily accept the browser monoculture of a Chrome-dominated web with no acknowledgement that this is the exact same nightmare we went through back in the day with Internet Explorer. We're seeing underhanded and sneaky bundling deals and drive-by trojan installs (which then make Chrome the default), as well as a push for proprietary markup that only works with Chrome and subsequently websites that REQUIRE Chrome for use.

Why are we giving Google so much of a free pass for all the things Microsoft got raked over the coals (and taken to court) for? It seems peoples' memories are quite short, but I can assure you that a lot of us are STILL dealing with the fall-out of websites requiring Internet Explorer to this very day.

Re:Speed isn't the biggest problem

[tsa]

Not only are People's memories short, but there is a whole new generation of people who never saw the monkey run.

Bwaahaha UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous

[Anonymous Coward]

Bwaahaha UNIDENTIFIABLE anonymous YOU isn't a REAL person & neither are FAKE NAMES for FAKE LIES of "so-called 'lives'" trolls - you LOSE & don't try play "jailhouse lawyer" w/ me you STALKING weirdo - you're DULL BRAIN is obviously ADDLED (probably due to "Transtesticle Hormones" you take, lol - & you talk "opposite sex" when YOU don't know WTF You are? LMAO!).

I'd only make a THREAT if harassed or threatened 1st.

* LOON - get professional psychiatric HELP for your "StRaNgE" stalking OBSESSION mania you have w/ me - ok?

NORMAL PEOPLE (& I stress that vs. the "AbNoRmaL OnEz" like you, the "not-men" mere "ne'er-do-well" DEFICIENT do-NOTHINGs like you out there) like me?

We LAUGH @ your kind (trust me - we do - & you only have your F'd up wasted LIFE to blame on YOURSELF, nobody else, lol).

APK

P.S.=> Lastly - I haven't been ANYONE's "wageslave" indentured servant (making peanuts from the TRUE profit) for 11++ yrs. now (I'm in business for MYSELF, unlike you, obviously also)... apk

Spend your time more wisely... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

See subject & create something others LIKE + USE (as they do my work which IS of service & value to others, unlike your trolling) https://news.slashdot.org/comm...

* It's THAT simple...

APK

P.S.=> Funniest part is, everytime I've done a FREEBIE app, it works out well for notoriety BUT SOMETIMES it has worked out to be commercially sold successful software w/ my name in it (helps on job prospects when I was working, long retired now for a decade++) that PAID me for it no less... apk

What I care about is

[aliquis]

1) Which one slows my computer down the most with most tabs.
2) How easily can I save and shut down all those tabs and get back to a useful state.

Category 1 goes like Chrome, Opera Beta, Firefox, Edge or something such. Hard to decide between the first two.
Category 2 I don't even remember which one let you save all tabs at once even through multiple windows but basically with extensions they all do it well.

What I'm using now is Opera Beta though with V7 sessions. I know for sure V7 sessions has felt slow after using it many times and Chrome has felt slow with all the hundreds of thousands of bookmarks so .. Not really great anyway.

But that's what matter for me. Not how fast they render one webpage or run some benchmark application in one.

no

[Anonymous Coward]

Chrome is a surveillance tool. $
Edge is a surveillance tool. $

Wetware/carbonware bottleneck

[williamyf]

The wetware or carbonware that is put between the Keyboard and Chair is the main bottleneck in performance.

If you change many things in the browser, like the interface, or break a lot of plug-ins, the wetware/carbonware gets adapatation problems, and productivity suffers.

Chrome changes every six weeks or so.
Edge changes every six months or so.
Firefox ESR changes every year.

So, logic dictates, go with firefox ESR.

Firefox never in third place

[PineHall]

An interesting detail I noticed in the nine tests that Firefox was in second place except for the two times that it was in first place. It was never in third place. I think that means Firefox is solid across all tests. Looking at first place finishes only, you see that Firefox ends up in third place, but if you add up the rankings Firefox ends up in first place. I think all the browsers are pretty good so maybe these tests are not that big of a deal. I think the point is that Firefox and Edge have improved so much that Chrome not the must-use browser that some people used to claim. I use Firefox so I am happy to see that it is performing well.

nurd

[williamyf]

Maybe nurd is a portmenau of nerd and turd?

Having said that, at one time or another I have used Windows mac and Linux on my desktop, and better not tell you about the weird stuff I administered in my servers (Sinix or VMS anyone?).

So, I do not care what OS anyone uses, as long as they do not pontificate about it.

OSs and software in general are tools, use the best tool for the job at hand, and get done with it.

You never see people arguing if a screwdriver is better than a chisel... It should be the same about OSs

Re:nurd

[tsa]

But some screwdrivers are better than others. Magnetic, hardened steel tips and so on. It's the same with OS's.

When You Block Javascript

[Bing Tsher E]

Which browser performs the best when you block javascript? Which browsers make it the easiest to set configuration rules that blacklist third-party scripting? Which browsers then gracefully display the 'corrected' web content after the script infestation has been removed?

That is the kind of benchmarking some of us would find more relevant than gee-whizz speed measurements of the excrement that "web developer" discharge.

But which one uses the least memory

[halfdan the black]

I couldâ(TM)nt care less if a page takes a microsecond longer to load. What I care about is not chewing up all the memory on my machine because of sloppy coding and memory leaks.

Browser wars

[Clived]

What about Opera ? I seem to be using it a lot these days, love the built in VPN and its quite fast

Comments ?

Re:Browser wars

[Anonymous Coward]

What about Opera ? I seem to be using it a lot these days...

Last I heard, Opera stopped using their own distinct engine in... was it 2013? Thereabout. They switched to the same engine as Chrome, so there's no point in making Opera a separate contender in browser tests anymore.

Re:Browser wars

[Anonymous Coward]

Opera is based on Chrome, has been for some time, so for the purposes of these benchmarks, Opera == Chrome.

Re:Browser wars

[thegarbz]

Comments: I'd rather an American company hoovering all my data up than a Chinese one.

Who wants a browser

[AHuxley]

made by an ad company to ensure the consumer gets their ads?

Cut the cheese

[Mats Svensson]

This is just the beginning!
After all the needless things, like bookmarking, navigation, GUI, etc has been removed, FF will really fly!
And as an added bonus, It will report itself as "Google Chrome".
Its what the kids want!
Right?
Right!

Safari is 2nd market share overall, 1st on mobile

[taharvey]

You have data problem. Region, education, occupation, access, software quality, and income all factor into usage.

So what you find is in the USA. Chrome is 47% market, followed by Safari at 31%. Everything else is in the noise.
http://gs.statcounter.com/brow...

If you restrict that to mobile devices. Safari is 50% market, followed by Chrome at 41%.
http://gs.statcounter.com/brow...

The problem with your data is that selling lots of $50 android phones, and cheap windows boxes doesn't mean people use them. Also, given the professional, corporate, and tech industries strong leaning toward Macs over Windows (even the Microsoft office I was in recently was all iMacs) - they will use the web 10X more than joe average.

Safari way faster... and left out

[taharvey]

For several years now Safari has outpaced Chrome nearly across the board in javascript and DOM operations.

I've been tracking it as a web app developer because it has serious implications for UX on mobile devices. The DOM operations can easily be 3-4X faster in safari, when combined with the iPhones processing advantages stacks up a 10X difference in performance between the average iPhone and the average android phone. Its a big problem for javascript app developers.
examples:
https://bugs.chromium.org/p/ch...
https://discuss.emberjs.com/t/...

The fact the Safari is left out of these comparisons puts a reality distortion field on the market, and keeps Google from getting their act together.

Re:Safari way faster... and left out

[Roger W Moore]

For several years now Safari has outpaced Chrome...

It needs to because it has to load all the ads. I never used Safari because of the absence of a decent adblocker.

Re:Safari way faster... and left out

[Shirley Marquez]

You seem to be discussing mobile devices. iOS is a special case; all competing browsers are guaranteed to be inferior to Safari because Apple requires that they use the HTML and Javascript services provided by iOS, which are basically an out of date version of Safari. The choice on iOS is easy because Apple has rigged the game.

The benchmarks cited here are on systems where all the browsers they tested run natively - that means Windows. Safari for Windows was discontinued ages ago so it's out of the picture. It would be interesting to see how Chrome and Firefox compare with Safari on a Mac, a platform where all three get to run their own code, but then Edge would be left out because it's Windows-only. A comparison of Chrome and Firefox on Android and Linux would also be nice to see. (Neither Edge nor Safari is available there so it would be a two horse race.)

Re: Introducing RaceRelationsDot

[Anonymous Coward]

Me Chinese. Me play joke. Make penis into robot. Now you choke.

OS Dependent

[Roger W Moore]

They should also average all the browser performance over Mac, Windows and Linux or state which OS the results are valid for. It is unlikely that Edge will win any speed contest outside Windows because it will have to run inside a VM.

Re:OS Dependent

[DontBeAMoran]

Only test browsers available on the OS:
Windows: Edge, Chrome, Firefox
macOS: Safari, Chrome, Firefox
Linux: Firefox, Chrome

Browser Benchmark Battle: July 2018

[najajomo]

Is there any difference between Apple, Linux and Windows in running these tests. Does the fact the most of Edge is baked into the kernel add anything to it's performance?

Safari costs $499

[tepples]

Safari costs $499 (source: Best Buy). Most people (except professional web developers) aren't willing to buy a second computer or second phone just to run a web browser. These comparisons include Edge despite it being exclusive to Windows 10 because Windows 10 has a much larger installed base than macOS and X11/Linux.

Re:Safari costs $499

[DontBeAMoran]

But that doesn't make Edge free either.

Re:Safari costs $499

[tepples]

I concede that Edge is not free software, unlike Chromium and Firefox. I concede that acquiring an Edge license is not without charge, unlike Google Chrome and Firefox. But the fraction of PCs worldwide that are already licensed to run Edge is far greater than the fraction of PCs worldwide that are already licensed to run recent Safari. The Edge fraction is above the threshold, the Safari fraction not so much.

"Never bothered implementing" features for years

[tepples]

Chrome isn't based on WebKit any more

Chrome for Chrome OS, X11/Linux, Windows desktop, and macOS isn't based on WebKit. Chrome for iOS is still based on WebKit, as is every single other browser that runs on iOS.

If your website doesn't work on WebKit, it's probably because you're using new standards that WebKit either never bothered implementing

Correct. Web developers are complaining that WebKit "never bothered implementing" things that Firefox and Chrome have long supported. It was last to get WebGL, for example. It still doesn't play WebM, as far as I'm aware. Even something as old as <input type="file"> was completely unsupported in Safari for iOS for five years.

Useless testing

[raphael75]

There is no point testing anything except Chrome and Safari. Everything else is under 10% market share. http://gs.statcounter.com/browser-market-share

Re:Useless testing

[raphael75]

Edge is under 2%. It is a huge waste of time to bother with it.