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GOG Launches FCKDRM To Promote DRM-Free Art and Media (torrentfreak.com)

An anonymous reader shares a report: GOG, the digital distribution platform for DRM-free video games and video, has launched a new initiative designed to promote content without embedded DRM. The platform aims to promote GOG and other companies with a similar ethos, including those offering DRM-free music, books, and video. "DRM-free approach in games has been at the heart of GOG.COM from day one. We strongly believe that if you buy a game, it should be yours, and you can play it the way it's convenient for you, and not how others want you to use it," GOG said in a statement. While Digital Rights Management is seen by many companies as necessary to prevent piracy, GOG believes that its restrictions are anti-consumer and run counter to freedoms that should exist alongside content ownership.

64 of 150 comments (clear)

  1. DRM doesn't work by stooo · · Score: 4, Informative

    DRM is easily circumvented BS, harms legitimate users, and should be removed from the landscape.

    --
    aaaaaaa
    1. Re:DRM doesn't work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      *Is routinely* removed from the landscape. Publishers don't like this, but it always happens.

    2. Re:DRM doesn't work by Z80a · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a piece of software that harms piracy.
      It's called steam/gog and it does work by making the original games as good or better than the pirate version by allowing you to get it as easily as the pirate version and having dedicated servers etc..
      But when you put DRM in a game, you make the pirate game better again, and you really don't want to make the pirate game better than the original game.

    3. Re:DRM doesn't work by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      DRM has never been about combating piracy because pirates easily circumvent it. At the most it prevents casual piracy by those who haven't learned how to use google. DRM is really about preventing resales, lending, and enforceing region locking. That is, the people being punished by DRM are those who legally purchased the product.

    4. Re:DRM doesn't work by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's called steam ...

      ... But when you put DRM in a game...

      To be clear, do you actually believe that Steam doesn't have very stronly enforced DRM?

    5. Re:DRM doesn't work by Z80a · · Score: 1

      It have the option, but it's not what made steam an effective tool against piracy.

    6. Re:DRM doesn't work by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No, availability is the tool against piracy. That doesn't mean that DRM isn't still inherently bad. Good lucky with your library if Steam goes out of business. You'll be relying on the kindness of strangers.

  2. Moving Against the Tide by mentil · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Given the broad move towards content streaming, and Kindle Unlimited, I'm not hopeful that people will increasingly move towards ownership of what media they consume. Noone cares about DRM of Netflix streams because they accept that they can't do whatever they want with the stream. Steam now allows refunds, so if the DRM prevents the game from working, you can refund it. Legally it's the EULA and not the DRM that prevents you from owning your media, and that practice is a larger problem that doesn't seem to be going anywhere either.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
    1. Re:Moving Against the Tide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      EULAs carry absolutely no force of law and can be disregarded.

    2. Re:Moving Against the Tide by fazig · · Score: 2

      Do you really believe that there would be no copyright laws without EULAs?
      If you try copying Microsoft Office and distributing it they'll get your ass sued because of copyright infringement and not because of breaching their EULA.

    3. Re: Moving Against the Tide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Go fckurself. Your apathy and complacency just contributes to the problem. You know better, which makes it even worse.

    4. Re:Moving Against the Tide by fazig · · Score: 1

      If you're a small fish and stupid enough to get caught but are an individual they may not bother with a lawsuit and just bar you from online services like software updates and other things. Probably the main reason why they introduced Office 365 as an online based service. I'm sure they'd love to have a Windows 365 (and only a Windows 365), but due to latency (laws of physics) and bandwidth issues of the internet infrastructure that's simply not feasible for many tasks that are usually done on Windows.

      If you're a bigger fish and are stupid enough to get caught they may sue like in this case, where a software reseller sold product keys they didn't legally obtain. https://www.arnnet.com.au/arti...
      All while reselling legally obtained product keys may not get you into trouble at all, depending on where you live (EU for example).

    5. Re: Moving Against the Tide by ledow · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Have you ever tried to make a game and sell it? Only the other day on here I was reading an article about "review copies " that were basically scammed out of games-makers. Something that DRM could stop.

      There are numerous instances of games-makers tracking pirated downloads, and releasing games without DRM to see how they fare. Piracy is rampant. Even for a small indie, it's a problem... I can't imagine how you think that will scale for a profit-seeking business.

      That's not to say that all DRM measures are valid. Some go too far. But DRM is a necessary part of consuming modern life. Out of all the "DRM free" stores (e.g. app-stores, etc.) out there, how many are bundled on phones or computers in preference to the DRMd ones? None.

      There's *always* a way to run non-DRMd software, but the equivalents don't always exist in the way you'd like.

      I'm massively pro-open-source (which basically makes DRM moot). But I can't ever justify having a huge, successful, idea and then trying to monetise it... at the point you monetise DRM makes sense and nothing else does. I've seriously considered my "big project" games that I've worked on for years and I can't picture how you'd get anything back if they were non-DRM or open-source. It just wouldn't happen.

      With money comes DRM, that's the problem. I'm happy to give away much of the fruits of my labour for free, I do so personally and professionally all the time. But I can't ever imagine a commercially successful game without DRM of some kind (even if it was just "online account necessary").

      I'm a pragmatists and a realist. The fact is, at the hourly rates that my free time costs me (i.e. how much do I have to work to get X amount of free time, and how much would that cost charged to a client) it's literally NOT worth me trying to bypass or avoid DRM in order to watch a movie, play a game, read a book or anything else. Especially not when the DRM doesn't interfere with the ordinary usage of said product.

      In the same way, I'm sure I can make my own soap, farm my own bees, knead my own bread. But the effort, time and money involved is much better spent on "big corporate" products, and then getting all that free time back to do things more entertaining. Like watch a movie.

      While your attitude to DRM is "fuck you", you're never going to win that argument. Because everyone else on the planet has bigger things to do, and that their game only runs on 3 computers at once is right as the very bottom of the pile of things they give a shit about. You can't instigate change that way.

      I'd much more happily give MONTHS of my time to initiatives that make open-source games, libraries, cross-platform ports, etc. than try to convince an ordinary person that DRM is "a bad thing". Even though it's present in everything from coffee-makers to computer games, car tires to 3D printers.

      Because, at the end of the day, if you want a reliable commercial product it needs a revenue stream to sustain itself. DRM is a guardian of that revenue stream (though far from perfect, yes, any DRM is breakable and you can't make one that isn't, but that's not the point - like the BluRay AACS stuff... it's about making it difficult to do things in a timely manner at release, not be impenetrable... and lots of companies remove DRM from products after that initial period).

      If you think this is bad now, then it's only EVER going to get worse, whether or not I support it. But you're fighting the wrong battle. "No DRM" is stupid. What you need is "Reasonable DRM" instead. Lumping it all together just teaches companies that they might as well go the whole hog as they've gonna catch flak for it anyway.

      I find Steam DRM (not the additional stuff that some companies put on their Steam offerings) perfectly reasonable. It's never hindered me in any way. It likely never will. I accept it as a reasonable compromise and would protest if it get too strict. But I also accept that "No DRM" just means rampant casual piracy (no matter what peopl

    6. Re:Moving Against the Tide by pots · · Score: 1

      Legally it's the EULA and not the DRM that prevents you from owning your media, and that practice is a larger problem that doesn't seem to be going anywhere either.

      I don't know what the law actually says here, but there's a long tradition of owning media and rights attached to that ownership. It seems unlikely to me that a EULA could completely invalidate those rights. I know that EULAs try to do this, but that their enforcement status is ambiguous. Wikipedia calls their legal status "somewhat unclear."

      I think the longer this stays uncertain, the more likely we are to wind up in a irreversible situation - one where EULAs are broadly accepted by the public and binding. Resistance to power grabs like this are mostly fueled by outrage, and that outrage fades as something becomes routine. The fatalism that you're preaching above doesn't help this situation at all.

      I would also distinguish between subscription services (Netflix, Kindle Unlimited), and one-time "purchases" (Steam). Subscriptions come with no expectation of ownership, and so people accept the DRM as you point out above. This is not the same for Steam, regardless of the fact that you can now refund games. A purchase on Steam comes with an expectation of ownership. This second situation, purchasing, is what GOG is talking about and defending on their new website.

    7. Re:Moving Against the Tide by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      >Though parts of them may be unenforcable, try copying Microsoft Office and distributing it and then telling Microsoft and see how far it gets you in court.

      You are describing copyright law, not a EULA.

      --
      Good-bye
    8. Re: Moving Against the Tide by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I've seriously considered my "big project" games that I've worked on for years and I can't picture how you'd get anything back if they were non-DRM or open-source. It just wouldn't happen.

      And yet GOG keeps going strong. Maybe your "big project" games are just shit?

  3. DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The value of a product is by definition what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not your asking price. Not even how valuable you consider it. I treasure the wedding ring of my grandmother and wouldn't sell it for millions, even though the average jeweler would probably only pay a few 100 bucks for it. And that is actually the price I could sell it for, not a dime more.

    The argument many companies field for DRM is that without, their product becomes easy to copy and hence worthless because it can be multiplied at the whim of the one holding it. What they fail to understand is what they're competing with. They are competing with the product being offered for free. Not legally, true, but for free. You cannot compete with 'free' on price. Unless you'd be willing to pay people to take your product, something that has rarely been done in history, at least without the added requirement to actually use it and pay that way in some other fashion.

    What you can compete on is convenience and value. DRM now devalues your product, in the eyes of the customer. With DRM, I cannot easily transport it from my laptop to my desktop, I have to enter keys or insert some physical medium somewhere or, in its worst incarnation, I have to be online all the time and maybe can't even play sensibly the first few weeks after launch because the servers the DRM wants to connect to are overtaxed. These are all problems a cracked version does not have.

    A cracked version of even the most fiendishly DRMified product can be used on any computer at any time by any person without jumping through any hoops. At worst it may even be that the buyer of a genuine copy cannot play because the DRM-Servers are not responding while someone who did not buy the game but instead got it from an illegal source can.

    This is the main danger of DRM to your product. Because here is what happens: People talk with each other. User A who bought your product, and now cannot play, talks with User B who copied it, and who will show User A how to get a copy himself. User A doesn't even feel guilty because not only did he pay good money for a product he cannot use, he feels cheated by you and has exactly zero problem with a potentially existing conscience copying the game. He paid for it, so according to his moral attitude (and, frankly, probably almost everyone else's too) he has the right to use that game. This is how he learns that copying a game isn't that difficult.

    Next time he omits the step that is of no value to him. I.e. buying the game that he then has to copy anyway to actually play it.

    DRM damages your product in the eyes of the one paying for it, i.e. the one whose opinion about the value of a product actually matters. Whether you consider it more valuable with DRM is irrelevant.

    Steam, GOG and various other online distribution channels have proven that people are willing to pay for games delivered with convenience and hassle-free. Knowing that you get the game you want quickly and easily, not having to store it locally while you don't play it, being able to transfer save games easily between computers and even to other players, a centralized modding repository and so on, these things are of value to people, and they convince them that they're better off paying a few bucks for a game rather than downloading what hopefully is the game, fiddling with it to make it work and then spend some more hours trying to figure out how to add mods or integrate someone else's save games.

    Add value to your products and people will buy them. Remove value and people will find other ways to get them in a more valuable version.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:DRM devalues your product by mlw4428 · · Score: 1, Troll

      > The value of a product is by definition what someone else is willing to pay for it. Not your asking price.

      Value of a good doesn't necessarily equate to the end cost of the good. It's a factor, but I have the right to set whatever price I want on an item. Your only right as a consumer is to buy or not buy it. That's it.

      > I treasure the wedding ring of my grandmother and wouldn't sell it for millions

      This is a shit example. That diamond in that wedding ring (or any modern one) costs the De Beers company a handful of dollars. They sell it to you for vast sums more. They do this partially by artificially restricting the availability of natural diamonds, calling lab created diamonds less valuable, and telling women that your man doesn't love you if he doesn't give you a piece of a shiny rock - specifically the TYPE of rock that De Beers says is valuable.

      > The argument many companies field for DRM is that without, their product becomes easy to copy and hence worthless because it can be multiplied at the whim of the one holding it. What they fail to understand is what they're competing with.

      They understand it. They also understand anonymous VPNs, TOR, shared network connections, a lack of "internet identification", and the costs associated with finding and prosecuting pirates and the subsequent punishments that make the costs extremely high for low payout. What I see time and time again from anti-DRM people is how easy the competition makes it (although in today's streaming age, most of the biggest competitors use DRM). What I don't see is anti-DRM people coming up with solutions to prevent theft or make punishment worthwhile to pursue. It's a different class of product. You can only steal the ONE car I own, but you can take my music that I spent say $5000 making and give it to 1 billion people so that it's unlikely I can recoup my costs. But more importantly if I say I want to be paid for you to listen to my music then that's my inherent right. You don't have a right to listen to it.

      > Steam, GOG and various other online distribution channels have proven that people are willing to pay for games delivered with convenience and hassle-free.

      Yes and this is why a lot of game publishers are moving towards subscription models or models that require you to purchase in-game items (or play for a really long time) - because they're all making so much money. Steam and GOG may be popular, but the theft of games, music, movies, etc has increased over time (especially games). So while they've removed DRM, they've added a new class of barrier and that's where you either pay for content in the form of "loot boxes". It's so pervasive that it's now a meme, but it won't change. Published tried DRM and mostly that does end up failing. So now they're limiting content and making it something you have to pay for. They tried DLC and expansion packs - but those suffer from the same piracy woes. But "loot boxes" and in-game currencies make it so that your purchase gets tied to a database and you have to sign in. This makes simple piracy next to impossible and ensures an ongoing revenue stream.

      > Add value to your products and people will buy them. Remove value and people will find other ways to get them in a more valuable version.

      You're saying "do what I want or I'll steal it". The problem is that prior to DRMs, it was already being stolen. So it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Please tell me what rights anyone has to take content and not pay for it. Why is a content creator less deserving of pay than you are if I came to your house and take your TV? This is what businesses see. This is the kind of conversations they have behind those closed doors. They pay people to make the content you want. That cost has to be borne by someone and in every single other industry it's the consumer who bears that cost (and then some...for the whole profit margin thing). Bitching and moaning because of DRM's existence ignores the actual issue and you've done a piss poor job of highlighting the issue. And fucking retards like you are why loot boxes are a thing, why you now have to buy continual expansion packs. You've all fucked over gaming and you're too stupid to understand why.

    2. Re:DRM devalues your product by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      The vast majority of paying consumers don't care about DRM.

    3. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      How does pirating a product devalue it? If the pirated product is passed off as a genuine one (as is the case with articles like clothing or other fashion accessories) and of inferior quality, the brand value gets damaged, this is correct. But that's also not the case with illegal distribution of software, in which the people involved usually know that they do not use the genuine product.

      The product is not any less valuable. When a million people copy your game, its value to me does not change. Either it is worth the asking price or it is not. Whether a product is offered at a different price only matters if the conditions it is offered at are identical. Where I am from, you can get internet access for pretty much any price between about 5 bucks a month and about 200 bucks a month. The product is at the surface identical: Access to the internet. With closer inspection you will notice that not only the speed offered is different but also the SLA behind it, ranging from "if it doesn't work, sucks to be you" to "it works within 5 minutes of you telling us it doesn't or we pay anything you want".

      Just because someone else is offering a product cheaper does not make your product any less valuable. Someone getting internet access for 5 bucks would not have paid 70 for yours just 'cause yours is faster or has a higher availability rating. Still you'll notice that people pay 70 bucks for better, more reliable and more comfortable access.

      If you now go ahead and make this 70 bucks product less valuable, e.g. by injecting ads, crappy tech support or requiring people to allow other customers of yours to use their wifi access point (believe it or not...), people might consider moving away from your service. Not because of the 70 bucks, but because the value they associate with your product is now lower than what they gave it without your added limitations.

      If DRM is a fear reaction of not getting a ROI, it fails miserably at this. Because if anything, it makes sure that your ROI is lower.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Value of a good doesn't necessarily equate to the end cost of the good. It's a factor, but I have the right to set whatever price I want on an item. Your only right as a consumer is to buy or not buy it. That's it.

      Slight correction. Asking price is what you mean, not value. And yes, the asking price is only influenced by manufacturing cost insofar that the cost establishes the minimum asking price (barring any cross financing), since selling below would mean that not producing is more sensible. The customer assesses the value of a product and compares the value he attributes to the product with the asking price. If the value I give a good or service is higher than the asking price, I buy. If it isn't, I don't.

      This is a shit example. That diamond in that wedding ring (or any modern one) costs the De Beers company a handful of dollars. They sell it to you for vast sums more. They do this partially by artificially restricting the availability of natural diamonds, calling lab created diamonds less valuable, and telling women that your man doesn't love you if he doesn't give you a piece of a shiny rock - specifically the TYPE of rock that De Beers says is valuable.

      Again, value is what the potential buyer gives a good or service. You, as the seller, try to find an asking price that allows for the maximum profit without going over the value the buyer attributes to the item, because if you ask for more than he considered it worth, he will not buy. Whether I (or for the matter DeBeers) says it's valuable means jack shit if the buyer doesn't see it that way. DeBeers apparently managed to convince people that the value they pretend those rocks to have is correct, so people now attribute that value to those rocks. Actually, it's even likely that DeBeers, as the seller, considers the rocks less valuable, or they would not want to sell them at the price they offer them at.

      They understand it. They also understand anonymous VPNs, TOR, shared network connections, a lack of "internet identification", and the costs associated with finding and prosecuting pirates and the subsequent punishments that make the costs extremely high for low payout. What I see time and time again from anti-DRM people is how easy the competition makes it (although in today's streaming age, most of the biggest competitors use DRM). What I don't see is anti-DRM people coming up with solutions to prevent theft or make punishment worthwhile to pursue. It's a different class of product. You can only steal the ONE car I own, but you can take my music that I spent say $5000 making and give it to 1 billion people so that it's unlikely I can recoup my costs. But more importantly if I say I want to be paid for you to listen to my music then that's my inherent right. You don't have a right to listen to it.

      The solution is to compete in value to the customer. You can't compete in asking price with someone essentially offering the product for free. That is intrinsically impossible. What you can do is offer an added value. Convenience, for example. People are very willing to pay for convenience. Apple based its success in the early 2000 on the "just works" philosophy that they managed to pull off very convincingly. Apple products were quite a bit more expensive than comparable Windows PCs, and they also suffered from a smaller software library, but the added convenience and hassle-free usability meant that they sold very well. Then there's also the "bling" aspect, also something you could learn from Apple. People want to show off, and being able to show off, so all you have to do is make buying your product "cool" and associate copying it with being poor and generally a negative style image. Make your product fashionable, but of course only when people actually buy it. Maybe add a few cool cosmetic features now and then for paying customers that can prove they bought a genuine product, and make sure that the game community actually honors this. It usually he

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    5. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1
      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:DRM devalues your product by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You make some decent points, but I feel compelled to call you out on this one:

      >But more importantly if I say I want to be paid for you to listen to my music then that's my inherent right. You don't have a right to listen to it.

      No. Absolutely false. Once you release your music so that anyone else can hear it, sharing that music becomes their inherent right - the right to share information predates even the existence of language.

      The only thing that stops them is copyright law - a completely artificial legal monopoly granted to you, that artificially restricts their inherent rights to share information. That's granted as a social compromise designed to encourage the creation of more content, but you have absolutely no inherent right to expect it. The only inherent right you have is to either never create the music in the first place, or to never share it with anyone else.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    7. Re:DRM devalues your product by 110010001000 · · Score: 1

      Right. Only a small minority. That was 2013 Sim City which sold in the millions. The sequel sold even more copies than that one. I don't think people care in 2018. They aren't really interested in computers, just consuming content.

    8. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Well, that small minority even got Amazon to stop selling it due to complaints...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:DRM devalues your product by mlw4428 · · Score: 1

      > Slight correction. Asking price is what you mean, not value.

      I didn't misrepresent what I said. Asking price is what I was talking about, it's not necessarily equated to value.

      > C'mon, this was a pretty civil exchange 'til here and you actually had a few arguments that deserved an answer, did you really have to end with an ad-hominem? Next time I should read the whole reply first before starting to address the points...

      Fair point - my apologies. I'm a creator and it bugs me incessantly that there are people who think they should get access to my work without paying me for it. You're allowed to not consume my content. Perhaps that's to my detriment, but I have a right to receive the money I am asking for in exchange for the right to consume my content to whatever extent our sales agreement dictates.

      > I'm saying "Do what I want or I won't buy it."

      That's you. Plenty of people go "Do what I want or I'll steal it". These arguments are targeted at society as a whole's problem with the theft of content. You may have morales and ethics, plenty of people do not.

    10. Re:DRM devalues your product by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Just because someone else is offering a product cheaper does not make your product any less valuable.

      Of course it does. Many people who would be satisfied with the lesser product will stop demanding your product; they were paying for more than they were using. Others will perceive it as having less value even if they are currently still willing to purchase it, and will wait longer to make a purchase, or possibly even purchase something else in the interim.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    11. Re:DRM devalues your product by mlw4428 · · Score: 1

      Your points are discombobulated. The discussion isn't about value. The discussion is about the sale - the transaction. Your pirating of my content means I do not get money. It's a simple concept. You ended up with the output of my investments and I received no income. Nothing to offset those costs. This is an unsustainable, unless you're willing to pay my bills.

      > When a million people copy your game, its value to me does not change. Either it is worth the asking price or it is not.

      Yes and in a society with laws, generally, I can expect to tell you that if YOU don't feel it's worth what I'm asking and I'm unwilling to change the asking price then you go get a competing product. The perception of the value of a good or service is not the issue that is being discussed. It's the sales transaction process that a pirate bypasses or ignores. The concept of value only comes into play if there is to be a transaction of some sort...an exchange. You devalue the content by refusing to participate in the exchange portion of the transaction.

      I don't understand how you're jumping from pirating to using a competitor's good. I would agree with you using someone else's product if you don't want to buy mine. But piracy is your using my content but I have not been paid for it and I should have been.

    12. Re:DRM devalues your product by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Even the "right to share information" is only a right insofar as you can stop me from killing you to stop you from sharing what you know.

      my right to dictate that I'm going to be paid for my work or else you may not have my work do exist. The alternative is that we're just a bunch of animals, in which case, I have guns - do you?

      And now, you've completely lost any legitimacy you may have had.

      Comparing the natural rights of copying information and to exist, to the artificial right of legal monopoly as if they are equal is a misnomer at best, but to then claim that artificial right of monopoly somehow surups the natural right to exist and to openly challenge anyone who claims otherwise really does make you an animal.

      I agree with the GP. The world can do without your contributions.

    13. Re:DRM devalues your product by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      Life? What 'right' to life has a man who is drowning in the Pacific? The ocean will not hearken to his cries. What 'right' to life has a man who must die to save his children? If he chooses to save his own life, does he do so as a matter of 'right'? If two men are starving and cannibalism is the only alternative to death, which man's right is 'unalienable'? And is it 'right'? As to liberty, the heroes who signed the great document pledged themselves to buy liberty with their lives. Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes. Of all the so-called natural human rights that have ever been invented, liberty is least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. The third 'right' -- the 'pursuit of happiness'? It is indeed unalienable but it is not a right; it is simply a universal condition which tyrants cannot take away nor patriots restore. Cast me into a dungeon, burn me at the stake, crown me king of kings, I can 'pursue happiness' as long as my brain lives -- but neither gods nor saints, wise men nor subtle drugs, can ensure that I will catch it.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
    14. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You honestly think that someone who wants Battlefield will buy CoD instead if he spots BF being available on TPB? For real?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Whether you get my money for your product depends on the price you stick to it and the value I attribute to it. If I consider the price on par or lower with the value I give it, I buy. If not, I don't. This is why value is the key factor in the game here.

      That you want to offset the costs and make a profit is a given, but you have to see the transaction from the point of view of the one who can decide whether or not it happens: The buyer. He, and only he, is the key factor here.

      Whether that person copies the game or whether he continues without playing it, the net result is the same to you: No sale. You do assume, though, that anyone not buying your product is automatically someone who copies it. This is not the case. I can want a product and decide against buying it without having to copy it. I can, as astonishing as this may seem to narcissists, actually continue my life without your product.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You certainly have the right to receive compensation for your creation. You also have the right to set the terms, but in the end, it's the buyer that decides whether he accepts that price and the terms attached. And the terms become more and more the reason why I don't buy. There have been quite a few games in the past that I really wanted. Because I love the franchise, because I loved the idea presented, but then I saw the terms and decided that I cannot accept them. The 2013 Sim City was such a title. I had every SC before, from the first back on an Amiga 500 (actually bought the ram expansion just for that one game so I could play it), I still don't have the 2013 version. And by now I know just how badly it sucks and don't want it anyway, but hadn't it been for the copy protection, I would have bought it for the name alone.

      So I guess I should be grateful that EA decided to pollute the game. It saved me money.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, I was one of those buying Skylines. Pretty nice game, actually. Wouldn't have bought it without SC2013, though.

      Thanks, EA! ;)

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    18. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, if you add DRM to your product, the value to me, as a potential buyer, goes down. If I have to expect the game to no longer work after a year or two when you turn off your always-online servers, the value of your product is that of a game I can only play for one or maybe two years, not one of a game I can play for however long I consider it good enough to be played.

      I guess it's easy to see why the value for something like this is lower.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    19. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      While I don't condone this train of thought, it is sadly the way things are going. What we get to see more and more is this sequence of events:

      1. Buy content
      2. Try playing it
      3. Notice it doesn't work
      4. Find content in TPB
      5. Download content
      6. Play content

      If that happens repeatedly, I can fully understand if the user omits steps 1-3 since they essentially are pointless to him.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    20. Re:DRM devalues your product by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Now I'm curious, who am I shilling for?

      And where's my paycheck?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  4. Good faith by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'd like to think that people are moral enough to generally act in good faith when the other party is acting in good faith. I believe that applies to software and piracy. An example would be opening the source to products once they're essentially obsolete. Or require a one-time online activation when a product is installed, but releasing a patch to remove the need for online activation when the servers are taken offline.

    Copyright length also needs to be shortened and be different depending on the type of work. Software tends to become obsolete very quickly relative to other works, so limit the copyright length to something like 15 years. Films and TV don't become obsolete as quickly, and there are TV shows that have run longer than 15 years. A copyright length of 30 years might be more reasonable, but after a time, such works still seem dated. Written works don't become obsolete in the same way as software and film so they probably deserve a longer copyright. Something like 50 years might be reasonable.

    I suspect the only real solution is to reduce copyright lengths because too few businesses see the wisdom of acting in good faith and expecting customers to do the same. It's unfortunate.

    Would you pirate from a business that pledged to open source a product a few years after the original release? I'd like to think most people would say no.

  5. GOG is successful, despite instant piracy by BenJeremy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They manage to thrive, even though every one of their releases immediately ends up on the torrents and other channels to download.

    That says more about the actual value of DRM than it does about piracy.

    1. Re:GOG is successful, despite instant piracy by rogoshen1 · · Score: 2

      GOG and CD Projekt succeeds because they make fantastic games (Such as the Witcher).
      They also don't abuse their customers either through nickel and dime DLC packs, or DRM and spyware.

      Other companies and platforms could take a lesson.

    2. Re:GOG is successful, despite instant piracy by greythax · · Score: 2

      That's because a pirated copy does not equal a lost sale. Most people turn to piracy because of a lack of funds, or "principle" which would prevent them from purchasing a copy anyway. Anecdotally I have seen people pirate a game of dubious quality rather than risk the funds, but I would argue that would often just be a sale and return, rather than a lost sale.

      It's like the case when an 11 yo with a 20 dollar a week allowance who downloads 1000 songs. Did the record companies loose 1000 dollars? No. At most they would have lost 20 dollars a week, but more than likely, those dollars would have went elsewhere.

      Ironically, I have seen people pirate a cracked version of a game because they didn't like the DRM scheme (out of spite), but that is anecdotal as well, and no basis for policy.

    3. Re:GOG is successful, despite instant piracy by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 1

      That's because a pirated copy does not equal a lost sale.

      Yes, it does.

      Producer says "I will give you Thing in exchange for $Amount."

      Person A says "OK," and hands over $Amount, and gets a copy of Thing. A sale has been made.

      Person B says "No." No sale has been made.

      Person C says "I do not want to give you $Amount, but I want Thing," and illegally copies Thing. Producer has lost a sale, because Person C got Thing, but Producer did not get $Amount.

      The point is, there's a difference between 'not making a sale' and 'person getting Thing without paying.'

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  6. DRM is not the problem by Mr.+Dollar+Ton · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are two problems with copyrights and related rights, and both aren't DRM.

    The first problem is that the original meaning of the copyright contract - right to monopoly sales (and profits) for a LIMITED TIME in exchange for placing the work in the PUBLIC DOMAIN once the limited time is over - has been destroyed. The LIMITED MONOPOLY is today being called "intellectual property" and the effort to make it perpetual has only increased.

    The second problem is that what was essentially a CIVIL matter - the violations of the LIMITED MONOPOLY, has now been turned into a CRIMINAL MATTER.

    Thus, the society, which feeds the "IP lawyers" has been shafted twice. Once by giving up its rights on the "copyright" contract, and then by paying for its enforcement.

    DRM is just the icing on the cake of misery we suffer at the hands of the "IP lawyers".

  7. I'm a fan of gog. by Qbertino · · Score: 2

    No steam lock-down installer bullshit, no DRM, awesome games, great deals, an abundance of great old and new games, a website not built by complete morons ... All in all a very, very good e-commerce offering for digital goods.

    This is how it should be done. I'll probably support their initiative for that reason alone.

    My 2 eurocents.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  8. Statutory rules of software copyright by tepples · · Score: 3, Informative

    The EULA is the only way you have any rights to the software *at all*.

    Without a EULA, the software would be subject to the statutory rules of software copyright. In the United States, these rules carve out exceptions for the owner of a lawfully made copy to do the following:

    - resell that copy (17 USC 109);
    - copy the software into RAM to execute it (17 USC 117(a)(1)); and
    - make private backup copies, but not distribute those copies to others (17 USC 117(a)(2)).

  9. I will never forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I purchased Carmageddon TD2000. It was an expensive game when it came out. I had a pretty beefy computer back then (for the day) but the game play was so laggy that it was basically unplayable. It was so unplayable that I read the entire manual. I noticed something that stuck a note in my mind. There were two lines (don't remember the exact words so I am paraphrasing it) that were at odds of each other. The first said that the game is copy protected. The second said that you are entitled to make one back up copy of the game. They had an email address so I emailed them about it. I asked since I am allowed to make 1 legal backup copy, but the game is copy protected, how do I do it. I was shocked when I got a reply from them. It only had two words in the email (other than my quoted text). It just simply said "You dont". Pretty much summed up what corporate thinks of the people who buy their games....

    1. Re:I will never forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      The 1 legal copy that you are allowed to make was not a backup copy but the copy on your computer to play the game.
      This odd phrasing was codified in laws specifically for software.

  10. Re:Editors, check your spelling! by wed128 · · Score: 1

    No, it isn't. Just because somebody snarkily re-acronyms something doesn't make it the truth.

  11. Support DRM-free alternatives! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I buy PC games from GOG. No GOG, or at least another DRM-free store, no sale.

    If we want DRM to die, we have to change the supply/demand curve so that happens. It has to become a death knell to release your game without a DRM-free version, because people won't buy locked down shit. We have to support companies that release DRM-free games... which many are doing nowadays.

    People need to stop this mentality that they need game X. You don't need it. It's a luxury item, and there are hundreds of other great games you can play instead. If you bend over and take it, companies will keep abusing you.

    IT's basic econ. Reward what you want more of, and punish what you want less of. Support DRM-free everything in the marketplace, games, music, art, software, whatever. GOG has been doing the right thing by PC gamers for many years now.

  12. Does GOG allow the resale of a product? by aliquis · · Score: 1

    And do the platform support that transfer?

    1. Re:Does GOG allow the resale of a product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The game doesn't have DRM so you can sell it directly to another owner. There's no support on GOG to do this, since there's no DRM, no need to "have support" for it. Just sell it directly.

    2. Re:Does GOG allow the resale of a product? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There's nothing to prohibit you from doing so physically, but the platform itself doesn't reflect that action. So you can download the backup installer, then burn it to a disc and sell it once. (That would be the licence transfer you are entitled to for that copy) but the platform has no way to detect or update your account after doing so, so you could do it again. (Being in breach of copyright.) Of course, I'm also sure that the ToS prohibits doing this period, but that's just legal wording until someone enforces it.

      So no, GoG doesn't allow you to resell anything, but there's nothing to prevent you from doing so anyway other than the threat of a lawsuit and jail time.

      * Obviously don't do this, it is a violation of the law and you can be sued over it.

    3. Re:Does GOG allow the resale of a product? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      That was quite a bit of text making it somewhat unclear.
      But the terms are such that you aren't allowed to sell your copy (make a new one but abandoning yours so to say.)

    4. Re:Does GOG allow the resale of a product? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      This should had ended with a question mark.

  13. There are places where "DRM" does work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In niche industries where each customer pays tens of thousands of dollars per user or small work-group for specialized software, DRM works.

    However, the "rights management" is the contracts and the lawyers, and the "digital" is the large number of digits in the dollar amounts in the penalties laid out in the contracts. Severe violations can result in a lawsuit that can bankrupt the customer.

    In such cases, the customer may even PREFER that software help enforce the contract to make it more difficult for a rogue employee to bankrupt the company through a license violation.

    Much more common in such industries are is "hardware enforcement" where the software is useless without the hardware. I'm thinking things like million-dollar-medical devices. Where the software can run on ordinary PCs, it may be accompanied by a PC-add-on board or a "dongle" that runs some of the actual code from its own ROM even though that code could have been compiled to run on an ordinary PC. This makes piracy extremely difficult without either reverse-engineering or finding some way to read the ROM of the device.

  14. Re:Editors, check your spelling! by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

    The rights of one party act as restrictions on others.

    If I have the right to life, you are prohibited from killing me. If I control copyright on a work, you are prohibited from copying it without permission.

    So they are essentially the same thing, and the initialism has always been Rights.

    --

    ---
    According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
  15. I don't care about Netflix DRM by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    because I'm renting it. If there's something on Netflix I want enough to have it permanently I can buy it on DVD/Blue Ray and break the encryption to back it up.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  16. Restrictions for more parties than rights by tepples · · Score: 1

    The rights of one party act as restrictions on others.

    In DRM, the majority of people act as the restricted party, not the party with rights. Therefore, DRM is "digital restrictions management" for more parties than it is "digital rights management".

    If I have the right to life, you are prohibited from killing me. If I control copyright on a work, you are prohibited from copying it without permission.

    The prohibition of murder isn't quite the best example. In the case of copyright, far more parties are affected by the restrictions than enjoy meaningful exercise of the rights. This imbalance does not apply to the prohibition of murder.

  17. GOG is the method Nintendo *should* follow by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    A while back there was a discussion on how much effort Nintendo and others put in to make it difficult for people to play old games (Battletoads of course being a classic example of this) legally. If they would take a look at GOG they could see how they could do it, make money, and make the fans happy. There are plenty of games on there that date to the 90s (some even earlier) that people are happily paying small amounts of money for so they can play them on their newer PCs. Nindendo got close to this with Virtual Console but there were some glaring omissions - and of course it is close to shutting down for the WiiU.

    Ask yourself this question; would you pay $5 to play your favorite 8 bit NES title on your newest Nintendo system? I know I would.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
  18. DRM pun in Witcher 3 by iampiti · · Score: 1

    CD Project Red, The owners of GOG and makers of The Witcher games included a DRM related pun in the Witcher 3: Quoting from the Witcher 3's Wiki: "During the quest involving Sigo Buntz, Geralt must deactivate the DRM ("Defensive Regulatory Magicon") with the aid of the Gottfried's Omni-opening Grimoire, or GOG".
    That was funny and not very subtle :)

  19. DRM is more than mere insult added to injury by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There are two problems with copyrights and related rights, and both aren't DRM. .. DRM is just the icing on the cake of misery we suffer at the hands of the "IP lawyers".

    No, DRM isn't just icing on the cake. It causes additional, new problems along a whole other dimension.

    You described some problems with copyright, but nevertheless a bunch of us think that copyright is basically a good idea. We're better off with copyright, than without it. You have some legitimate gripes about how it got fucked up and I'm not disagreeing, but if copyright were for limited times and civilly enforced, then those problems would be addressed, no?

    But with DRM, even repaired copyright would be highly defective. First of all, "limited times" would only be by statute but still effectively unlimited. Worse, though, is that DRM interferes with casual use. Something with DRM is substantially worse than the same thing without it. Ergo, buying DRMed things is a bad idea, because they don't work right.

    In a world with sane copyright policy, nobody needs to pirate until there's DRM. And then with DRM, everyone needs to pirate and you are seriously losing out if you don't. As a pirate, my videos all Just Work. They don't have deliberate defects.. And my non-pirated music also Just Works, because it's not DRMed. So I buy music but pirate all my video.

    That's not what we want. That's incompatible with copyright being a good idea. DRM is direcly anti-copyright and all people who favor the preservation of copyright should be working to make DRM illegal.

    But assuming we can't outlaw it (and I suppose there are First Amendment reasons why we shouldn't), then here's what we should do:

    If a copyrighted work has a technological measure which limits access, and this was added with the authority (or even the knowledge) of the copyright holder, it should lose its copyright and fall into public domain. This is a fair compromise, repairs copyright so that it works as intended, while also allowing publishers who trust DRM more than copyright, to try their thing.

    1. Re:DRM is more than mere insult added to injury by Mr.+Dollar+Ton · · Score: 1

      if copyright were for limited times and civilly enforced, then those problems would be addressed, no?

      Some of them.

      Granting a monopoly is a dangerous pseudo-solution. Why? Because monopoly grants excess economic profits, and these tend to be invested in the political process to extend the monopoly rather than do something else. Why? Well, because extending the monopoly extends the amount of profits.

      So, even if you get to curb the "intellectual property" thing to some saner limits, in a few year or decades the situation will be back to today or worse. Something different is needed, and it isn't immediately obvious what this is. But yeah, squeezing back the current situation will be better than nothing.

      In a world with sane copyright policy, nobody needs to pirate until there's DRM.

      DRM is a distant secondary issue, the primary issue is, as I said above, what is the best way to compensate creativity. Once a compensation scheme that destroys asymmetry of information is established, then I agree, the need for DRM will vanish, because it will be more expensive and unnecessary.

    2. Re:DRM is more than mere insult added to injury by MoralCharacter · · Score: 1

      I think the issue is that scale at which companies did business when copyright law was put in place, had no way to account for what the internet would become - almost no one had any inkling about what it would lead to, law makers of the time almost certainly didn't understand it then, most hardly understand it even today.

      The explosion of businesses due to online commerce, digital content, personal computing - as far as gaming goes - the majority of products released today aren't even physical products anymore. Copyright law in the 70s was good for fighting against people making knockoffs of your work and trying to profit off your ideas. It wasn't designed to deal with a world where anyone can create perfect copies of a creative work thousands of times at the touch of a button, and then share them with anyone around the world at almost no cost.

      From what I can tell, most changes in law to address this have largely been slapdash attempts to fix things, by law makers who don't understand it but are listening to companies or their lobbyists who have a vested interest in making sure it's to their benefit.

      But yeah, even without considering how this affects digital content, our government basically bent over backwards for companies like Disney to change copyright law to benefit them. That alone should invalidate any trust in copyright laws of today - no company should be able to influence law like this, characters like Mickey should have been in the public domain long ago. Disney isn't a person it's a company. Walt and Ub are long dead. If Disney wanted to continue owning valuable copyright, they should have made a new character to replace Mickey - but I suspect no one working for Disney is capable of that, and I think it has nothing to do with their artists or their creativity. (It's amazing the company is still around given how many colossal failures and mistakes they had under Eisner)

      I doubt that even if we wrote copyright laws from scratch, we would never see anything that's fair to both consumers, independent creators, small companies, on up to the music industries copyright cabal.

  20. Re:Editors, check your spelling! by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    But it is the truth

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.