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How Can We Fix The Broken Economics of Open Source? (medium.com)

"The economics of Open Source software are fundamentally broken," argues Matt Klein, a senior software engineer at Lyft (who created Envoy). Here's a heavily-condensed version of his essay on Medium: If we take consulting, services, and support off the table as an option for high-growth revenue generation (the only thing VCs care about), we are left with open core [with some subset of features behind a paywall], software as a service, or some blurring of the two... Everyone wants infrastructure software to be free and continuously developed by highly skilled professional developers (who in turn expect to make substantial salaries), but no one wants to pay for it. The economics of this situation are unsustainable and broken...

[W]e now come to what I have recently called "loose" open core and SaaS. In the future, I believe the most successful OSS projects will be primarily monetized via this method. What is it? The idea behind "loose" open core and SaaS is that a popular OSS project can be developed as a completely community driven project (this avoids the conflicts of interest inherent in "pure" open core), while value added proprietary services and software can be sold in an ecosystem that forms around the OSS...

Unfortunately, there is an inflection point at which in some sense an OSS project becomes too popular for its own good, and outgrows its ability to generate enough revenue via either "pure" open core or services and support... [B]uilding a vibrant community and then enabling an ecosystem of "loose" open core and SaaS businesses on top appears to me to be the only viable path forward for modern VC-backed OSS startups.

Klein also suggests OSS foundations start providing fellowships to key maintainers, who currently "operate under an almost feudal system of patronage, hopping from company to company, trying to earn a living, keep the community vibrant, and all the while stay impartial..."

"[A]s an industry, we are going to have to come to terms with the economic reality: nothing is free, including OSS. If we want vibrant OSS projects maintained by engineers that are well compensated and not conflicted, we are going to have to decide that this is something worth paying for. In my opinion, fellowships provided by OSS foundations and funded by companies generating revenue off of the OSS is a great way to start down this path."

203 comments

  1. Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Just because people can build the software from source if they want to doesn't mean you can't get them to pay you for it.

    1. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Exactly. This is why OSI has done more harm than good with their promotion of "liberal" open source licenses such as MIT or BSD licenses that let corporations plunder this public good for their personal profits. Instead if software developers actually understand that licences like GPL actually provide an avenue for monetization by enforcing the need for proprietary software vendors to actually pay for the usage in a manner that keeps their sources and/or modifications closed.

    2. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by wierd_w · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A better way to put this:

      Even if milk, flour, eggs, and sugar could be obtained for 0$, people would still buy cakes from the store.

      Why? People will pay for convenience. Specifically, the convenience to free up their time for other, more desirable or productive tasks.

      So, even if all the ingredients could be obtained for a genuinely 0$ price point, mom will STILL pay to have a cake made for her, for her little girl's 6th birthday party, because mom is busy doing other things and can better use the hour of her time that would be spent making the cake and (trying to) frosting it herself. Instead, she could be arranging for the party, or checking invites.

      Same is true in software installation settings. Sure, the source code and tools are freely available. Do you have the time to spend every month or so vetting the compilation chain, building the suite you use from source, then vetting all the components built right? Or-- would you rather pay a nominal fee to a trusted source--- specifically, the very same group that maintains the free software you are using?

      Right.. Exactly.

    3. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by locketine · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even a simpler analogy: people buy bottled water.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    4. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't originally just ESR, but actually Microsoft, during their explicitly anti-free software phase that started promoting non-copyleft licenses. They wrote in the Halloween papers about their reasons which were explicitly to stop F/OSS competing. Of course this is reinforces your point.

    5. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A better way to put this:

      Even if milk, flour, eggs, and sugar could be obtained for 0$, people would still buy cakes from the store.

      But in this case you only need to bake the cake once, then it can be distributed for virtually no cost. Which is precisely why nobody is paying for a compiled version of an open source project.

    6. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The cake in question will look nice, taste on but will give you violent diarea that only experience consultants can fix.

    7. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that this strategy implicitly relies on the existence of a 'closed source' version, and since that software has to have _some_ advantage over open source in order to be viable, it's defacto 'open core'. It appears all viable open source funding work by closing the source or donations.

    8. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ???? Didn't you forget to add the part where proprietary software was so much better? Troll fail.

      Frankly, I'd say that economics would cause proprietary software to be more likely like what you describe, since its initial experience is often what sells it. FOSS, on the other hand, often errs in the opposite direction where ease of use suffers because the developers don't find that interesting.

    9. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Dasher42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's true. I want that open source quality even if I'm not going to personally audit most of the code that I download on the system. I'm happy trusting a source that has a good track record for that practice. I *do* still care about the standards being open and being set by developer mindshare, what engineers are excited to build, because you can get pretty burnt when the health of the platform you run depends on suits and marketing divisions that don't really care about it. Every Amiga fan knows what I'm talking about. After I had to jump ship from that platform, I ran Linux almost entirely to this day, because no CEO has the option to sink that ship.

    10. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by SuricouRaven · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But in software, someone has to pay.
      Fix your cake analogy: The cakes are made in a batch now. Once they are made, everyone gets a cake... but whoever wants their cake first needs to pay for the entire batch, and watch everyone else enjoy the cake they just paid for.

      Everyone is going to do the economically sensible thing: Wait until someone else is hungry enough to foot the bill for the entire batch, and then enjoy free cake.

    11. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No it relies on companies need to get around GPL when embedding in non-GPL software.
      See MySQL.

    12. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      So, even if all the ingredients could be obtained for a genuinely 0$ price point, mom will STILL pay to have a cake made for her, for her little girl's 6th birthday party, because mom is busy doing other things and can better use the hour of her time that would be spent making the cake and (trying to) frosting it herself. Instead, she could be arranging for the party, or checking invites. Same is true in software installation settings.

      The problem is that the world is migrating to cakes-as-a-service... or, perhaps more appropriately, to beer-as-a-service. And free-as-in-beer-as-a-service is not sustainable. TANSTAAFL.

    13. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by vlad30 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Which leads to Bill gates recent rant on capitalism without capital , software breaks the capitalist idea of supply and demand once made software has virtually unlimited supply and any demand can be supplied through almost instant duplication. Until we make replicator technology from star trek the same won't happen for the manufacturing industry. And although manufacturing techniques have improved dramatically (imagine the tech involved in producing hundreds of millions of smart phones annually now) there is still a limit on raw materials driving up costs.

      The raw material in software is programmers time and creativity they should look to publishing for inspiration there.

      Yes I just quoted Bill gates and defended publishing and copyright. sosumi

      --
      Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
    14. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Britian a cake-and-eating-it-as-a-service is being promoted, with a post-scarcity cake model meaning you still have it after eating it.

    15. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think a two fold approach to funding open source projects is the way to go.

      1. A bounty program in which end users offer crowd sourced money to develop a feature or fix a long standing issue/blind spot, and the other is:

      2.Kickstarter type crowd funding of developers where âoeif I build this, will you pay for it?â Kind of questions are asked.

      I donâ(TM)t think it needs to be much more complicated than this. A possible extension to this is a patreon type monthly fee for continued development of what you want worked on. If the developer is no longer doing what you want, quit paying at any time, no further commitment.

    16. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by rtb61 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Whilst all that is true, seriously why would you expect those who have infinite greed as they core motivator, to stop complaining about FOSS. They want monopolies, they want to pay bribes to government to use their proprietary software and then force end users to buy it to access government information, they want to lock down your data, they want to own the copyright on the content you create when you use their software, they want you to pay a fee again and again and again for nothing, just pay.

      Closed source proprietary software is all about infinite greed, no limit to profits, total world dominance, absolute power. Come on seriously, look at the crazy way M$, Google, Apple, Facebook et al have behaved, absolutely insane psychopathic greed on full public display again and again and again. Always after they go public and the psychopaths from the major banking investors take over.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    17. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relying on 'Embedding in non-GPL software' means that you're relying on closed source software that uses your code.

      Furthermore, that's an extermely rare use case that does not apply to 99% of FOSS. You need:

      1) A GPL library (a minority of even FOSS libs. Even FSF had to bend and create LGPL), otherwise they'll just link to it.
      2) Your library needs to not be able to be wrapped up as a service (otherwise they'll just wrap it).
      3) A closed source software that does not merely extend for what your code does, otherwise it's de facto open core.
      4) Not good alternatives either from closed or BSD camp.

      Just about 99.999999% of FOSS code fails these. MySQL usually fails at 2 and 4.

    18. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By what logic?

      i can just take your code and compile it, make a small meaningless change and give it away. Why would anyone pay?

    19. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Yes, but for the people who pay you for it, what do they get out of the deal?
      The current successful open source profit models falls under a few categories.
      1. Time Computing/Remote Hosted/Software as a service/Cloud: The software is free for you to install. However there is a service that already uses that has a huge infrastructure behind it, already configured for your needs. You could download the application and install it, mess with the source, but for it to be useful you are going to need to invest in millions of dollars of computers. Or just pay us a modest monthly fee.
      2. Consulting services: This product is so hard to use that you should have a team of experienced engineers to help configure it and maintain it for you. Good luck getting that IT Guy in your office to get past the installation.
      3. Service Contracts: Pay us a full time developer fee and we will take your problems and special needs into consideration, and give you 4 hours a month of services, where if your problem is deemed worthy to be fixed it can be.
      4. Our business needs the software but it isn't in our business model. We hire a developer to work on the product that keeps our business alive, however because it isn't in our business model, we might as well open source it, and see if we can also get some other people to fix it for free.
      5. You like this software then buy this hardware. Look at all the cool features such software has. Too bad it only works with a particular hardware. The source is open so you "can" change it. But who has the time. Just buy our hardware and the software is installed in its optimal state.

      For Open Source Software to be monetized, that normally means for it to be profitable it will need to be crippled in some way. Either requiring expensive equipment, or just hard to use. Sure there are some project that will get donations and grants for funding, where they make easy to use powerful software that works on normal hardware, however those are the exceptions. Because not all projects can be a Linux or an Apache.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    20. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is a cost to "Plundering" an MIT or BSD licensed product. In general you begin creating a fork in the product, that only you will be able to maintain and control. So a 20 year old bug, that got fixed 18 years ago, will not make it into your product, because you swiped and altered the code around it for your product.
      However if they keep the code clean, and will support the mainline development, then it is actually a win-win.
      The problem with businesses and the GPL, is for them to be profitable, they need skirt the edge of the GPL rules, and often try fit into the different exceptions. Or other then trying so hard, we just say no GPL, but MIT and BSD is Ok.

      Sometime you need to allow people to do bad things, to keep the door open for good things as well.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Microsoft business model of the time was to sell packaged software. Open Source was a risk at the time, because it offered alternatives. However it has changed to Cloud and software as a service, So people will be paying monthly fees and Open Source isn't as much a threat.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    22. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You analogy has a flaw in it. If I could take this cake that I bought at the baker then copy it a billion of times, and give everyone that same cake. The Baker would be out of business, because supply has breached demand. The bakers only saving grace, may be to have to make a different style of cake every time.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    23. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You are assuming the product is popular enough to get so much interest.
      Most software is designed to fix a particular problem. Perhaps only a hundred people will ever use it. Such programs you state will not get money, or interest.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    24. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi, I'm a dipshit. Does not compute.

      Reason: Analogy is not in the form of "a car."

      Eagerly awaiting your rebuttal.

    25. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you see, companies _do_ pay for a proprietary version GPL'd software. See how Adobe uses qt for their software despite qt is normally licensed under the GPL. Adobe paid whoever owns qt now a proprietary license so they do not have to release their code. If qt had been licensed under BSD and MIT, this option is no longer available.

      The problem is that OSI was created as a reaction to the GNU GPL model, and this lack of collective meant we get a whole generation of programmers who think giving away their labour for no compensation is absolutely okay yet corporations and large organizations end up acquiring all the profits somehow, yet at the same time whine about the lack of monetization? Point is, MIT and BSD are terrible licenses and any programmer that actually want to make a living must stop using them.

    26. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are you to tell people what license to use? Some people don't rely on software to pay the bills and it's just a hobby. Not everything is about money.

      Why can't we have both. If you wanna make money use GPL.

      For you to say people should stop using MIT and BSD because you want to make money comes off as condescending.

    27. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft business model of the time was to sell packaged software. Open Source was a risk at the time, because it offered alternatives. However it has changed to Cloud and software as a service, So people will be paying monthly fees and Open Source isn't as much a threat.

      People keep saying Microsoft has changed, yet the one thing that would show they really have changed - releasing the majority of their F/ODD software under the GPLv3 and increasing the portion of their software that is F/OSS -is something I bet they never do.

    28. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Zero__Kelvin · · Score: 1

      Of course it is a threat. What software DO you think their competitors will be using to compete with them, anyway?

      --
      Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
    29. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. This is one of those situations where anyone trying to make a profit, beyond the existing value-add options, is probably missing the point of FOSS. I've not read the article but I'd be interested to know how the people who have contributed to a project would otherwise get remunerated and why it seems right for an opportunist to be able to reap the financial rewards.

    30. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Hell my wife buys bottled spring water, and it is usually from the bottling company 20 miles away that pulls water from the same aquifer our house well pulls from.

      I'm hoping it is the convenience of the packaging and being able to send the kids off to school and not worry about them remembering to bring back a reusable bottle...

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    31. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      Hybrid models where advertisers pay to have them put in front of potential customers works though, and hte service ends up being free-as-in-beer for the consumer the advertisers want to reach. If that model didn't work, then OTA TV broadcast wouldn't have lasted very long, nor would OTA radio.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    32. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've thought about this lately and how a functioning software development organization is a lot like a machine shop that does bespoke work. It is hard to categorize it strictly as either a factory or a service bureau. The product of software development is not the individual copies of end-user installable software (which are actually produced in a web server or previously in a CD printing facility). The product is each new version of code, much like an expert machine shop that designs and delivers custom parts.

      Where do you draw the line between the organization and its employees? Traditionally, I think capital goods means just the installed equipment and space of the shop, under an assumption that the workers can leave and be replaced and the shop has an intrinsic value that depreciates at a certain rate. There is also a value for the organization even as workers are leaving and being replaced, unless too many leave at once and suddenly you just have an empty shop and need to start over bootstrapping a new organization.

      What do you call this layer of investment which is neither the capital equipment of the shop nor the accumulation of individual employment contracts? There is an institutional memory and potential that you invest in and bring to market, and in software shops this becomes the biggest component in the equation.

      On the flip side, the big social media companies invest in that other intangible asset that is distributed among their users. They are much more than just a software development shop. They are also a data storage and processing service organization which obviously has its own capital equipment and its own operations organization which has similar risks for losing its knowledge if too much turnover happens. But, a bigger part of their value is the networked potential of users, who similarly can be replaced only to a certain point where the network collapses and becomes just a mob. Treating this network like a traditional consumer market share seems to miss the distinction that the users are giving value, in a way that isn't true for, e.g. the market share of your laundry detergent brand.

    33. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      0$,

      Zero comma-dollars? Fucking seriously?

    34. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are also missing many hybrids between 2-3-4.

      Consulting doesn't have to be configuration and maintenance. It can be bespoke, custom software development. This is the core employment contract of a software developer, and can also extend to entire firms when you want to engage a larger development task than is reasonable for one person to deliver. Whether that contractor reuses idioms or library elements is often immaterial to you, the customer, but probably useful for them to control quality and offer solutions at lower costs so they get more business. This kind of work also lends itself to follow on support contracts, whether with the same firm or others.

      An open source release from the bespoke house to the customer allows the customer flexibility in arranging this support, reducing some risks inherent with engaging a smaller firm for complex development and worrying about its longevity. It also allows the firm more flexibility in reusing parts of this work in their next contract with some other customer, so it can be win-win if negotiated properly.

      These kinds of bespoke development groups can also have their own software infrastructure needs, where they benefit from open source rather than trying to keep in-house proprietary components. As a concrete example, consider all the DBA groups that use PostgreSQL and contribute to its development. They do not see a need to develop their own proprietary RDBMS. They do their custom work on top of this, and benefit from having multiple customers willing to use the same underlying infrastructure in their deployments.

    35. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What Free Software and Proprietary software have in common is that if you want COTS software, you pay a small price, but if you want something that is not available yet, you and your fellow prospective users will have to foot the bill for its development.

      The diference between Free Softwae and Proprietare Software is that in the first case, the paying customer shares the code with the freeloading rest of us, whereas in the second case, the publisher of the software can selll it to third parties and make loads of money.

      The economics of commercial software is broken, either way. Bill Gates will tell you so. The alternative is to leave software development to publically funded universities. Remember, it was unpaid students who used to write much software well before RMS started the FSF.

    36. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I was at a company that sold expensive enterprise software. We made more money from professional services than with our overpriced software. Someone to install it, train the customers, customize the heck out of it for the customers, write custom applications on it, etc. The big bucks come from stuff other than the product.

    37. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You can re-use the plastic bottles too. It's a bad message to the kids that they can just throw the bottles away.

    38. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't wanna make money use GPL.

      FTFY

      Signed: an actual software developer

    39. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by amorsen · · Score: 1

      The problem is that when someone pays five figures for a piece of software, they don't mind so much paying six figures to get it working. On the other hand, if they pay $0 for the software, they REALLY mind paying four figures to get it working.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    40. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another slow day on the farm. Well, a good open/free software cat fight will bring in the eyeballs. Throw in some Microsoft for good measure, that'll help the click count and solve nothing so Slashdot can use the same post on Thanksgiving.

    41. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I get paid to write open source software. It's not donations. I don't know why everyone seems to think it's hard to find an economic model for open source. The economic model never changed. The only thing that changed is the plethora of "app" developers who don't have the first clue how the economics of software work.

    42. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I make a living writing MIT licensed software. You don't know what you're talking about.

    43. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by reanjr · · Score: 1

      It's also a bad message to send to kids to re-use a disposable bottle. The plastics are different and often don't hold up to washing. Some have been shown to shed alarming levels of carcinogens into the beverage.

    44. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why GPLv3? Even the Linux kernel will never be trapped by the restrictive nature of that abortion of a license.

    45. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by exomondo · · Score: 1

      Which leads to Bill gates recent rant on capitalism without capital , software breaks the capitalist idea of supply and demand once made software has virtually unlimited supply and any demand can be supplied through almost instant duplication.

      That's not just software, it is anything that can be represented in digital form whether that's software, photographs, music, video, books, magazines, etc... The general business model is for the cost of producing it to be amortized across the people who want it. The benefit being that you profit by serving market needs in that the more popular it is the more profit you can make.

      Until we make replicator technology from star trek the same won't happen for the manufacturing industry.

      That's only partially correct. You don't really think the cost of manufactured goods are just the raw materials + the cost to replicate the original do you? There is a huge amount of R&D that goes into not just the product design and development but also the manufacturing process and equipment, all of this gets amortized across the individual products that are made. You just notice it less because it's wrapped up in the production cost.

      Apple does a similar thing with its software, the OS is given away for free but tied to their hardware. It isn't given away for free because the reproduction costs are zero or because the development cost is sunk but because some of the inflated price of the hardware is directed to funding development of the software.

    46. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Closed source proprietary software is all about infinite greed, no limit to profits, total world dominance, absolute power. Come on seriously, look at the crazy way M$, Google, Apple, Facebook et al have behaved, absolutely insane psychopathic greed on full public display again and again and again. Always after they go public and the psychopaths from the major banking investors take over.

      But the reality is that if proprietary solutions went away then technology would stagnate, the FOSS community would have nothing to copy. From PCs to tablets to smartphones to wearables to AR to VR the FOSS community has not innovated or blazed the trail. Even the most successful FOSS projects in history (Linux and GNU) were copies of the UNIX kernel and userland.

    47. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Linux is a big black eye for this whole idea.

      Not only has it thrived for decades, a great many people have found ways to make money from it. And Linus Torvalds is hardly poor.

      If you ain't makin' money, You're Doing It Wrong.

      And other people have already proved that.

      This is a non-issue, raised by people who don't think they "got their share".

    48. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      Yep.

    49. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by piojo · · Score: 1

      Every disposable water bottle I've seen has been made of PET, often with a polypropylene cap. I'd be interested to know whether PET leaches anything harmful. Do you have further information? My impression was that it's perfectly safe.

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    50. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by tigersha · · Score: 1

      Serious Question here. What do you do and how do you do it? I am really curious.

      --
      The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
    51. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by reanjr · · Score: 1

      PET can be safe, but is know to shed chemicals at higher temperatures. It's not recommended you put hot beverages in PET for this reason. There is a significant difference between a hot beverage sitting in the bottle for an hour and a quick hot wash, though.

    52. Re: Open source doesn't mean free software by reanjr · · Score: 1

      I work on infrastruture ("DevOps") for a startup in the mobile communications space. Whenever I work on a new project, I spin off the majority of the generic stuff into reusable MIT licensed modules, which I then tie together inside a small proprietary project. In the end, most of my work ends up open source.

      Every module gets fully documented and tested before publishing, so that puts the code a step above the typical proprietary code from my colleagues, which often relies on institutional knowledge. If I'm going to publish code for others to use, it's gotta be solid enough and well documented enough that I don't have to spend time supporting it.

      My boss is happy, because it gives him something to point at for prospective hires to see not only that we support open source, but to also see high quality, documented, tested work being done at our company.

      We've even received a couple of unsolicited bug fixes.

      This is the model software development used before MS came in and introduced the software world to copyrights. Keep your critical secrets close, but release all the plumbing and infrastructure for all to use. MIT enables that traditional model within the modern litigious world.

    53. Re:Open source doesn't mean free software by Soul_Predator · · Score: 1

      Agreed.

  2. There is no economics by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Interesting

    That requires both a buyer and seller. FOSS is free.

    1. Re:There is no economics by Gimric · · Score: 2

      Economics is the study of how to efficiently allocate scarce resources to meet unlimited wants and needs. Supply and demand is ONE way to do this, but not the only one.

    2. Re:There is no economics by thegarbz · · Score: 3, Interesting

      No FOSS is not free. It just doesn't cost money for the buyer to procure it. Economics are still very much at play even when no money changes hands.

    3. Re: There is no economics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FOSS is free.

      RMS would bitchslap (front hand) then hoslap (back hand) you right about now.

      And no, I don't condone some who bites and eats their own toenails and clearly doesn't shower regularly. Your handle is so ironic on this subject.

      FOSS is a development methodology.

      Free software is a social movement.

      While similar, please stop conflating the two. We've been over and over this already with the distinctions, and you know this already.

      You definitely can charge for non-freedom Open Source software if the license permits. The folks that decided to go this route created their own mess described in TFS.

      Open Source or Freedom software, the largest problem I personally see that we lack some consistent, unified, secure method to transfer funds *directly* to actual individual developers that work on software we wish to support. There is nothing wrong with supporting someone in monitary form who works on Free Software, as long as the license terms aren't being violated, but these cases seem to be exceptions at best. Of course there are other issues as well.

    4. Re:There is no economics by BadDreamer · · Score: 1

      What economics needs is resources that have to be managed. Then you have economics.

  3. It is not broken... by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It is working as designed. ALL software, in the long run, is a race to the bottom in terms of pricing. There is always cheaper labor, and with zero tangible resource cost (unlike computers, houses, or cars) that means it eventually falls to the lowest price for labor - often for free. Open source accelerates that, as the product is basically free to begin with, and you HOPE you can find someone to pay you to manage it. This often results in UIs that are not heavily worked over for user friendliness, because that kind of sabotages the entire "hire me to make it work" push. And because it cannot be realistically deployed without that help - it becomes of little interest to consider unless there is a lot of already-built-up demand and use in the market. A vicious cycle, that results in poor or zero income for everyone in it. By design.

    --
    Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  4. Easy Peasy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Charge money!

  5. Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... requires developers to develop software people are actually already paying for. I've thought long and hard if I could find investors to change the AAA videogame industry from the bullshit payment models and shit service to "buy to own" and "game development as a service model".

    AKA there should be enough nerds for us to basically revive 8-bit and 16-bit type AAA games as a service model (aka we build games together that we ultimately all own and the code is open) for those of us above average incomes and who are true enthusiasts, basically take advantage of enthusiast interest in technology and turn it into a "sams warehouse club" for nerds. I was thinking about this with how costco has membership. If you want to do OSS then you're going to have to do so with a product that there is a known demand for. People don't want the boring shit, they want entertainment and shit that actually is valuable enough to pay for, aka you do the shit people want and use the funds from the shit people want to do more serious stuff.

    For instance game development requires tools programmers that could make dents in the CAD and Image processing industries - aka take potshots at the crappy tools made by Autodesk and Adobe. Now this is not to say that many private sector products are bad, but Open source software versions developers have no discipline because they are free, when your job or your company is on the line with the quality of your work it forces you to stand up and take notice.

    Now while windows had huge problems as we all remember from an engineering standpoint, you have to acknowledge the savvy of making computers user friendly enough for people to actually want to use them. That was microsofts genius. People used DOS and windows back in the day because the market was big enough for games and other apps.

    1. Re: Fixing open source... by locketine · · Score: 1

      So do you want a subscription to Origin Access or GameFly?

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    2. Re: Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      So do you want a subscription to Origin Access or GameFly?

      Not quite, the service would not be for the mass market, aka you sell games as a service to true enthusiasts until there was some kind of critical mass where you could build a AAA game the masses would be interested in (aka basically think of it as a club of developers and hobbyist developers where the hobbyists split the bill among 1000's of paying enthusiasts to defray the cost amongst a large group), you use enthusiasts to help pay for development and sell the game differently to different markets, aka nerds who care about games would be subscribers, then you can sell complete game or change the model for different audiences who don't give two shits about game ownership or open source (aka exploit the uncaring masses like the corporations).

      To give you an idea, say we take a game from the 90's that cost 400,000 to develop, but that 400,000 is spread over months to a year of development time it doesn't all just disappear instantly, so say you're doing 10K a month in expenses to develop a AAA NES/SNES level game. Those costs are much more managable once you have a steady income for developers so then you don't have to worry about the code being open or whatever since the whole model is based on basically game enthusiasts being brought into a kind of developer club, whether you'd want to go full 'early access' or simply pay membership dues and get bascially feedback monthly (similar to kickstarter) would have yet to be determined, I'd want to experiment to see what works best.

      One of the reasons videogames are so fucked up is because the are not a market, the market that functions rationally is a minority which is why you get bizarre schizophrenic behavior on the behalf of game companies with drm, gambling, lootboxes, etc. AKA most PC gamers today are not technologically literate vs the past in the 90's.

    3. Re: Fixing open source... by locketine · · Score: 1

      So more along the lines of Star Citizen or chapter subscription games like Walking Dead or Sin Episodes? The problem with working on a game incrementally is that players won't replay the same content over and over again unless it's PvP. That's probably why all subscription based games are mmo or episodic. We'll see if Star Citizen proves successful using a rather unique funding strategy.

      --
      Think globally but act within local variable scope.
    4. Re: Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      So more along the lines of Star Citizen or chapter subscription games like Walking Dead or Sin Episodes? The problem with working on a game incrementally is that players won't replay the same content over and over again unless it's PvP. That's probably why all subscription based games are mmo or episodic. We'll see if Star Citizen proves successful using a rather unique funding strategy.

      That's the whole point of going back to 8 and 16-bit level games, aka you go back to a problem where the model makes sense and is actually tractable, you learn the ins and outs before you even attempt anything like a mid tier AA game or above. That's the whole point of catering to true tech and game enthusiasts (aka people who have genuine interest in seeing cool things done for the sake of cool nerdy things).

    5. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Star Citizen is probably not a good example of how to fix anything, ever.

    6. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So more along the lines of Star Citizen or chapter subscription games like Walking Dead or Sin Episodes?

      That's what got us Half-Life 2 Episode Three.

      Very few exceptions break that failure mode.

    7. Re: Fixing open source... by Shinobi · · Score: 1

      The problem is, you strongly limit yourself to a very small niche of people who either choose to remain with the same-old, or are mentally locked to it due to having a hard time dealing with change from what they grew up with(autistic people often have severe problems with that issue, for example). So, how do you get that business to sustain itself when you lose a large part of the initial customer base?

    8. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What in hell do you mean by AKA? You've used it at least two different ways not using its common meaning (also known as).

    9. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with working on a game incrementally is that players won't replay the same content over and over again unless it's PvP.

      Axiomatically incorrect. Many people here on /. have posted that they do that exact thing.

    10. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is Roberts being sued for taking peopleâ(TM)s money and repeatedly not delivering?

    11. Re:Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's a mistake to look at AAA game development as a software development project. That's a bit look looking at Netflix movie production as a software development project. Sure, plenty of software is necessary for the development and delivery of the final consumer experience. But, it is far from sufficient and most easily decoupled from the specifics of one AAA game or one movie. The primary development cost is the content, i.e. scripting, artwork, and acting. And a huge part of the go-to-market cost is the advertising to drum up enough interest.

      Open source software developers interested in this should think about being tool-makers. But unless you can also dream up an open source script writing, artwork, and acting economy, I don't see how you can have an open source game. And, unless you can replace marketing with some grassroots effort, I don't see how you can drum up the interest required to support all those contributors. That's an awful lot of economic revolution to attempt all at once.

      Are there any more incremental steps you could take? Each step needs to keep the participants economically sound and also produce something of value that would pique the interest of others. That was the beauty of the open source ride I've been on since the 90s. Lots of smaller projects made sense in some way to their individual sub-communities. Things like the GCC compiler and XFree86 had been going on for years, and the Linux kernel burst onto the scene with a grassroots community that targeted the home PC platform in a way that appealed to many geeks like myself.

      It was amazing how suddenly there was enough to synthesize a whole Linux distribution that could be used by relatively novice users and entice them into the fold. We went on from school into our jobs and dragged Linux with us, helping the situation get to where it is today.

      But, you should realize there were other kernels around before Linux. There were several BSD-derive projects with perfectly viable kernels and system distributions. Somehow, they remained stuck in smaller communities that seemed to cherish esoteric hardware and knowledge. Linux lowered the barrier to entry and had a welcoming, communal feel which allowed a much more rapid growth phase. I think you'd need that level of spark to really muster enough resources to produce AAA-style games.

    12. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He seems to use it consistently in place of "i.e." or "in other words"...

    13. Re: Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      What in hell do you mean by AKA? You've used it at least two different ways not using its common meaning (also known as).

      Language evolves with use, aka words and acronyms acquire new meanings and additional definitions in terms of the intention of the author. This is the way language has always worked.

    14. Re: Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      The problem is, you strongly limit yourself to a very small niche of people who either choose to remain with the same-old, or are mentally locked to it due to having a hard time dealing with change from what they grew up with(autistic people often have severe problems with that issue, for example). So, how do you get that business to sustain itself when you lose a large part of the initial customer base?

      Because many game developers within the industry are creatively frustrated, it would be a godsend for something like that. When I came up with the idea, I am thinking of gonig directly to many people in the industry and just slapping them upside the head and the lights would go on. I'm certain many people would be up for it since they are passionate about games and also frustrated by many of their evil publishers business practices.

      I thought hard about how to sustain it, I didn't just drop the idea out of the sky, there are tonnes of passionate people in the industry. More than enough to sustain small scale AAA game development.

    15. Re:Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      I think it's a mistake to look at AAA game development as a software development project.

      I don't, that's the whole point of going back to 8 and 16-bit games, aka the games are small enough to change the model. The problem with game development is how games are funded, what happens nobody on the finance side wants to fund a game to the point where its saleable. The reason they don't want to do that however is because they are not fully aware the tools are in the dark ages, when mmo's and f2p games proved gamers were stupid, AAA game companies stopped focusing on level editing tools for users because they saw there was enough stupidity among the masses for people to buy skins that are already on their computer because they know nothing about technology. League of legends whole business model is based on fucking morons buying skins that are already on their computer and the game client just sets a flag for the skin and model to display.

      So that means interesting developments in tools that were happening in the late 90's and 2000's basically stopped completely, Neverwinter nights was going in interesting directions tool wise. So resources going into tools making content easier to produce for people external to the company stopped. Big publishers have basically shot their content production in the foot because of that. Tools are still bad, janky and god awfully designed largely due to lack of funds and vision on behalf of the industry itself, which is why they are having so many problems executing internally.

    16. Re:Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, even with small games isn't the content more critical than the code? There are way more people capable of programming to solve someone else's problem than to imagine a game (or puzzle) and how it should be played and develop the content and identify the programming problems and then solve them.

      If you really want open source game development, starting small, it seems to me you need to invent something analogous to blogging platforms. A very stereotyped platform that can draw "creatives" from a much wider pool, many of whom have almost no technical skill whatsoever. I think there may be such things for certain genres like RPG, graphic novels, choose-your-own-adventure stories, and of course the super old school text adventure games. But those are all tilted pretty far towards writers...

      Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 8 and 16-bit games and what genres that implies. I can remember a few examples of games from those decades that run the gamut from Adventure (you are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike), Atari Pong, Pac Man, Asteroids, Choplifter, Spyhunter, various EGA/VGA combat flight simulators, to Castle Wolfenstein, Doom, etc. I suppose I've always been interested in the first-person games (with or without shooting) and preferred 3D as soon as I encountered it. I guess I also played a few other toys like Minesweeper and Solitaire on Windows 3.0 and things like Sudoko on feature phones, and some silly fruit-slicing game that seemed like an early Android touch-screen demo. What is your take on the Portal 2 community workshops, where users define new maps, sometimes new textures or sounds, and sometimes slightly modified game mechanics on a common game engine with almost identical game play?

      If not a specific kind of game-generator platform where people can just plug in new content (whether maps, rules, or whatever), then it almost seems like you need a meeting space or broker to bring together the creative content people and the coders willing to help them. I've only ever seen that happen accidentally in colleges where serendipity brings together people with complementary skills and suitably compatible expectations and levels of risk tolerance.

    17. Re:Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Hmm, even with small games isn't the content more critical than the code?

      No they both matter, consider racing games - most of the need for speeds post Most wanted 2005 have sucked BECAUSE the mathematical characteristics of the cars feel off, aka you can't go and modify the physics code and change the car feel. The way the game feels to drive makes or breaks a racing game. The problem here is the tools that make the content are languishing. If in doubt go pick up a copy of Overload on steam and the level editor. Just tool around inside it for a bit. Notice that it has been one of the few games recently released to have a full blown level editor, an even better example is the original NWN. The problem is something like NWN was going in interesting directions but publishers cut it and have fucked up gaming royally going for gambling and selling skins bs. It's the main reason why AAA games have a content crisis, we get these short bursts of movie like games where they focus on sticking a bit of movie inside it because hollywood is easier for the industry to understand then the pure abstract mechanics of games that built the industry like doom 2 for instance.

      Overload

      https://store.steampowered.com...

      Neverwinter nights

      https://www.gog.com/game/never...

    18. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not just buy cheap games that are good so the people that make them can afford to make another?

      E.g. Stick fight.

    19. Re: Fixing open source... by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Why not just buy cheap games that are good so the people that make them can afford to make another?

      E.g. Stick fight.

      Because the problem is the tools to make the art and animation are what need advancing, aka say you make something like metroid, the problem is many of the tools to do the art are still dark age level. You want to get to a point where you can imagine an art style and know how to execute it and not struggle with the look of the game. Consider pixel art of a given artist or small group of artists, the problem becomes if those key team members leave your style for the next game is shot full of holes, thats the whole point of not just buying games. When you buy games from small indie developers, they may have no skin in the game - aka they are a one game wonder, they're not really interested in solving problems related to making games. The reason why indie games suck so badly is because there is no consistent group of people working on tools that speed up the translation of art and code.

      Consider something like final fantasy 2/3 (us) level pixel art, many of those art styles have game objects that are tractable to algorithic generation. So that you can learn the mathematical rules behind an art style - aka you can understand specifically what the rules and methods are to produce x so you can always reproduce x.

      The problem the modern game industry has at all levels is having consistency of execution on large teams across a team of a wide range of skills. You want to turn that into a process so that you're not dependent on these all star team members who are basically unconsciously doing a lot of heavy lifting. You want to make it easier to execute art at a given quality level - aka give the power to produce high quality art to a wider range of people. That's just one example, I could write a whole book on the subject of what is wrong with modern game production.

    20. Re: Fixing open source... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What in hell do you mean by AKA? You've used it at least two different ways not using its common meaning (also known as).

      Language evolves with use, aka words and acronyms acquire new meanings and additional definitions in terms of the intention of the author. This is the way language has always worked.

      I think he mean e.g. instead of AKA. i.e. he misused an English initialism for a Latin abbreviation. q.e.d.

  6. This is already how it works though by guruevi · · Score: 1

    There are people that make money of the software through services (eg. Canonical and Red Hat) and there are people that simply use it for free and perhaps even make a job out of it because they want to put the effort in it. FOSS works, no need for SaaS models where everything interesting sits behind a paywall and you get a barebones demo version of an "open source" product that they still want you to contribute to. If your software is interesting enough, people will use it, some people will make money of it. If a software project is so large that it can't exist without massive financial backing just to keep it maintained, your software has gotten too big and crappy and it should die. Linux as an example exists regardless of the money that is being pumped in it. It would still exist without it. Android wouldn't exist because it's crappy, it's overly complex and most of the interesting bits (whether it's the hardware on virtually all ARM chips or the applications Google provides) are closed source.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  7. Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The point of working on something for free is the work, not some sly method of monetizing something that is labeled "free."

    Might as well write an article about how soup kitchen volunteers can sinergize to maximal returns with Soup as a Service open core pricing.

    Trash writing from a human being with trash ethics.

    1. Re: Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck off, Progressive richie rich scumbag.

    2. Re:Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They haven't even considered that Capitalism might be the thing that is broken.

    3. Re: Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ma Soup Kitchen Debt Plan took ma house!!

    4. Re: Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What does that mean? The point being that if someone donates their time, that's on them. People that donate in such a way as to get people on the hook for payment to make use of the donation, that's false advertising at best and more often direct fraud. Just because this asshat thinks he has found a way around the law doesn't make him any less than trash.

    5. Re:Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Capitalism isn't broken, we are. We don't appreciate what we have and keep wasting resources in pursuit of what we already have.

      What good business people know very well is that the goal of capitalism is to drive down living costs and it's only the inherent stupidity of the general populace that keeps many businesses as profitable as they are. Imagine if everybody in western countries: Primarily cooked their own food, drank mainly tap water, used appropriate transport relative to the destination/load (e.g. walking is advisable for 2 mile or shorter distances carrying a light/medium load), used libraries rather than purchasing books (or implicitly trusting websites), bulk purchased essentials (raw ingredients, toiletries, cleaning agents, clothing). Think about how much less money we'd spend and how we'd be working far fewer hours while still having vastly more abundant resources available to us.

      Now, imagine the technology equivalent to doing the above. This is what early computers *openly* provided and what Free Software originally brought back. People shared their cooking recipes (source code) for a fee and when something was "useful enough" people moved on to working on the next problem. This all came to a peak in the 2000s where we had solid standards with decent free software implementations: XMPP for one-to-one instant messaging, IRC for instant public group chat, NNTP/E-Mail for general asynchronous communications, Gnutella/BitTorrent for peer-to-peer file sharing, FTP for centralised file sharing, HTTP for websites. Rather than building upon most of these, the ignorant public following the influence of business/marketing allowed the majority of the above to be replaced with disgusting proprietary corporate lock-in, rife with data abuse. Of these, only HTTP and E-Mail still receive mainstream use by the general "normie" populace.

      Not even nerds are immune to this issue. New frameworks, libraries and "hot new tech" keeps being released that turns out to be utterly useless in the long term. Rather than creating well defined, standardised interfaces and maintaining compatibility, us nerds are encouraging the replacement of standards at such a rate that end users have to keep consuming and then we're selling this as a "service" in order to keep the money rolling in. Rather than independently updating components in a clean manner which explicitly avoids breaking code written correctly to a given standard, we proudly break things.... because money! Rather than 'write once, works forever' and 'learn once, use forever', we insist on making people re-learn things without any meaningful gains, in fact, we make things less efficient for it.

      How do we fix this? Appreciate and be grateful for things which are well-designed, well-engineered and work well. We need to stop throwing away perfectly decent human progress in the blink of an eye for short term "gains".

    6. Re: Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What does that mean?

      It's an ad hominem designed to get you to ignore the comment which points out that profit motive is mostly irrelevant. Clearly one of our astro-turfers cares about this monetisation of F/OSS Software.

      In fact, poor people tend to give more generously to charity than the rich. I would be unsurprised if F/OSS volunteers aren't one of the poorer groups present here.

      Lack of need for profit motive is one of the key values of F/OSS. this means that, even if the product manager (whatever the equivalent is in your project) makes a poor decision, the old product will likely lead on to a fork which looks after the abandoned users

    7. Re:Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I blame the stock market system and the idea of infinite growth in capitalism with industries that promote products that have finite uses (and amounts) on the planet. It doesn't really account for reality, so capitalism is in need of some tweaks to account for that.

      Software is the only thing you can rip people off for repeatedly with a pittance of a cost for the provider. So the dirtiest dealing will stay there, as it's the only industry that truly can offer infinite resources, so long as the server money lasts.

    8. Re: Trash Writing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This, I am uninterested in the complaints of the investor class whining that OSS isn't profitable enough for them. As long as linux has value, people will pay for it. Remember the HTTPS bugs last year? The whole point of OSS is that those improvements are available to everyone.

  8. Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I tried, and failed to understand why OSS economics is "broken". The linked article starts off with some problem with Redis, which apparently I'm just supposed to know whatever happened with it without further explanation. Then it goes off into a long winded meandering essay about a bunch of other things. Huh?

    If you can't summarize a problem in at most a paragraph, I don't see how you can convince anyone there's a problem.

    Stated succinctly, What the hell is this guy talking about, and why should anyone pay attention to him? I don't see any deep rooted problem with OSS economics. It seems to work just fine, and is better than ever.

    If there's a problem, it's more with the niche OSS products that get created, then abandoned. Some obscure, but vitally important library for a small market. Of course, most of the time no closed source library exists for this either... but this is more of a problem with being in a small niche than a problem with OSS.

    1. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The economics have been broken since the beginning. The most pressing problem is that it takes talented and experienced software developers and engineers to build enterprise ready software. If this group can't make a living working on Open Source then they will chose to use their skills doing something else. When I heard the term "Open Source" my first immediate reaction was "I don't work for free!". I have been making a living developing software for close to 30 years. The second problem with using "Open Source" software is that the primary contributors to the project can up and leave any time they want leaving you with end of line software. If you ask me I think MS has finally discovered how to leverage open source software to enhance their existing software stack. And believe it or not but by creating a mixed closed-open software stack they attract developer attention. The have open sourced multi-platform developer toolsets. The most successful product MS has ever produced from a business perspective was VB. Technically VB had all kinds of issues but the one thing it excelled at was creating software developers.
      The more applications developed meant more people using the entire MS stack.

    2. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't understand the entire OSS movement actually. Other technicians don't do that. Nobody does that. If you work, costs are incurred, time is lost. It does not matter if it will be covered or not, it is never "free". It smells like communism to me.

    3. Re: Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what you don't get communism, that's fine :) sham pearls for real swine

  9. So viable open source economics require closing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Whether via "open core" (where all the interesting bits are closed), or SaaS (when Joe User can't meaningfully deploy it) or services (where the UI needs to be hard so Joe User needs support)?

  10. A fundamental misunderstanding. by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is nothing wrong with how open source works, it works fine. The problem is what some people want from open source.

    Everyone wants infrastructure software to be free and continuously developed by highly skilled professional developers (who in turn expect to make substantial salaries), but no one wants to pay for it.

    Here's the conflict, people want something for nothing and that can work out sometimes but it means you are at the mercy of people you have no control over. That said, since it is open, you can hire people that you have control over to contribute to the code. The fact that few chose to do this demonstrates a failure in leadership rather than a failure in open source.

    TL;DR: you dumbass MBAs are shortsighted nitwits who deserve to bear the responsibility for every security breach that happens under your blind-leading-the-sighted leadership.

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    1. Re:A fundamental misunderstanding. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FOSS is fine as it is. It isn't going to take over the world and make non-free software obsolete though because by and large FOSS is just some of the bits that make up software systems that people actually use and that's ok.

      Lots of bits of iOS, macOS and Android systems are FOSS and lots of them are not, but then even if you are running a free operating system you're almost certainly running on non-free hardware with non-free software embedded in it and most often non-free drivers to interface with it.

      FOSS is only broken if you have the misguided expectation that it is going to be the only model by which software is developed. The reality is that at a macro level FOSS is a follower, not a leader or innovator and this is the case from PCs to tablets to smartphones to wearables to AR to VR and beyond, many of the proprietary solutions contain some FOSS bits somewhere along the way (and that is the collaborative piece between open and closed ideologies) but the FOSS community has never led in developing anything like this.

    2. Re:A fundamental misunderstanding. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That said, since it is open, you can hire people that you have control over to contribute to the code.

      But unless you're a reasonably large company that isn't economically feasible, and it certainly isn't feasible for a regular home user.

    3. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by astrofurter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know a little about this first hand, from experiences I choose not to share.

      Using real big-F Free Software is orders of magnitude more productive than using proprietary crapware. Many companies running on Free Software generate prodigious economic output. No CTO under fifty wants even to touch âoeenterpriseâ software, much less build business-critical systems around it.

      However the men who actually write that Free Software capture almost none of the value they create. Many struggle just to make ends meet. Those who do earn a comfortable (never handsome) income do so at the cost of proletarianization. Work for Big Capital or starve.

      Consider the depency chain of a typical production web app. The application code alone may have hundreds of direct and indirect library dependencies. Thousands if it's a Nodejs app. ;) Probably a quarter of those libraries are already abandonware. Almost all of them will be abandoned in a few years, because they take time to maintain yet bring no income to their authors.

      In the short term this is great for companies. They pay nothing and get a lot of value. Free (like beer) software = profit! The capital owners would just as soon get rid of the free like speech part of Free Software. Thankfully we have some bold and incorruptible champions, like St Richard of Boston, standing up for software Freedom.

      In the medium term this situation is a maintenance and security nightmare. Our production applications are like houses of cards. Propped up atop layers and layers of increasingly unmaintained software. At first we can work around this. We replace components that have become unsupported, either with newer FOSS components, or with home rolled software.

      In the long run this is a potential disaster. More and more FOSS projects, having failed to provide material support to their maintainers, fall into abandonment. At some point the rate of abandonment surpasses companiesâ(TM) ability to keep up with maintenance. Rot starts to set in. Like aggressive termites or an invasive mold. The profit-generating superstructure sitting on this rotting base starts to become shaky, unstable.

      I don't know how to fix this mess. At a high level we must either figure out how to ensure authors of Free Software area able to earn a good living *for their Free Software work*, not incidentally to it. Or we must accept a permanent secular decline in software development productivity, because the rich commons of Free Software will have fallen into ruin.

    4. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by eyepeepackets · · Score: 0

      Tragedy of the Commons (Look it up; there is a good read on Wikipedia.)

      Simply put, there is nothing that can be done. As long as we live in a capitalist system, you have two choices: Free Software (high quality, low-to-no ROI) or Trapped software (low quality, high ROI, but only if you measure in the very short term.)

      The solution is to be found in a viable replacement for the capitalist system: Get the designer/coders an adequate income without encumbrance.

      --
      Everything in the Universe sucks: It's the law!
    5. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by turbidostato · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Tragedy of the Commons (Look it up; there is a good read on Wikipedia.)"

      Exactly that. And then moronic egotism (its near relative). Just look at the entry: "Broken Economics of Open Source" but, then, what that "broken economics of Opern Source" means for the author? It basically ends up "I want tons of money from VC for something that will never have so much value form them" -it seems his target is "billionaire or nothing"... and even he has the guts to say "If I take out all the ways I know I can make money off of open source (consulting, services, and support), then there is no other way to make money that I know about". Simply brilliant, Monthy Python level, "what have the romans ever done for us?"

      Now, what *should* be the proper way to make money out of open source? Well, it's right there, open to anybody to see, as long as they want to: software takes effort to write, but it doesn't take effort to replicate, then the answer is obvious: bill the "writing code" fact. In no part of any open source license says the code needs to be written for free; they are only about what you can do with that code *once* is already written (basically being "you can't control it anymore").

      Now, the problem comes from the fact that people (not only corporations: people) very much prefer acquiring things they can already see better than things that are in the future. It's not only a thing of software: i.e.: most millionaires (specially unknowledged ones) will prefer paying, say, 5000$ for a pret-a-porter suit than 3000$ for a bespoke one and that says all.

      Add to this the myopic greed of most corporations: right now I'm working for a big bank on an Openstack deployment with a strong backing from Red Hat (and quite a few in-house consultors from them). What's the best value those consultors bring? Being able to talk about our common problems with other Red Hat consultors working on very similar projects on other industries, even competing banks, and sharing the solutions they find. Of course, if we were clever, we could get rid of the middleman and just set our own communication channels with our competitors: there's even a MBA-buzzword for that: coopetition. But, of course too, we prefer paying money through our noses to Red Hat better than sharing efforts with our competition.

      The very same idea could be expanded to the production of the software itself: take the common software requirements of Fortune 100 corporations: they could build an alliance and pay for the common software they need on themselves; it could be open source and developers could be payed for the part that takes the effort -it won't happen in a million years. Not because "open source is broken" but because *we* are broken.

    6. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm a home user and I contribute to open source all the time???

    7. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      The problem here isn't capitalism, but instead software licences that make it very hard to charge for your work. New licences are needed that keep the most important feature of open software (the freedom to inspect, modify, and re-release), but don't allow the software to be run in production without payment.

    8. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by vakuona · · Score: 1

      The point wasn't about any home user but about a regular user who doesn't, by definition, contribute in code or in any other way.

    9. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This isn't a tragedy of the commons situation. The only real limit on open-source software is developer time.

      It's not infinite, but there are billions of people out there, even after accounting for available hardware and aptitude, you're still talking hundreds of millions of potential developers.

      Even accounting for doing it part time as a hobby, that's still a lot of free software development.

      The main issue is time, energy, access to development tools and need. Once a project hits maturity, the main work is maintenance. That does take time and energy, but usually not as much as preliminary development.

    10. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by reanjr · · Score: 1

      While it would be amazing from a socio-economic perspective to no longer spend time re-writing the same thing over again, it would be terrible for software developers, most of whom are writing that sort of derivative software.

    11. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by reanjr · · Score: 1

      No need for a new license, just better educated developers: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy...

    12. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      Limiting software running in production is both illogical and logistically painful. Illogical because what actually is traded here is not running time of software but developer's effort. And there is no direct connection between number of running systems and developer effort, thus revenue being proportional to number of running systems makes no sense. Logistically painful because enforcement will consume both a lot of effort and money. Keeping it opensource and unrestricted can save on this, especially considering everyone pirate stuff anyway.

    13. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Dual-licensed free software, where companies pay to embed the free software in their proprietary software, while allowing free use by others, is no general solution.

      This is not a feasible commercialization path for most software packages. It also again makes proprietary software free software's saviour. The FSF explains in your linked article that this is why they don't sell such exceptions themselves. I want open software to stand on its own feet.

    14. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Interesting points. My responses:

      1. Capitalism doesn't charge for effort. It charges what the market will bear. For software there is often an especially big disconnect between development cost and revenue. Free software shouldn't be forced into cost-plus pricing. If you developed Minecraft in six months work, would you forgo billions as an unfair payment?

      2. It wouldn't be feasible to have intrusive per seat, core, or cycle pricing, but developers would be free to vary the cost by the (self-reported but accountable) type and size of the customer and their intended deployment.

      3 There would be a clear cost schedule rather than individual deals to milk each customer as much as possible. These cost schedules would all be in the licensing website, which would also automatically calculate revenue distributions. Quite manageable complexity, well worth it for the cash injection it would bring to open software.

      4. Because everything is open, there can't be any hard enforcement of payment. Only an honour system, where bypassing a production licence is trival yet an explicit act. Possibly aided by a public register of those who have paid. Companies worry about their reputation, and won't pirate if the software makes them money and there's a chance that they'll be caught. (Anonymous) Individuals less so.

    15. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by reanjr · · Score: 1

      If I open source some work, selling that work under a different license does not impact the fact that the work is open source.

      Making money isn't an ideological exercise, it's a practical one. You may ideologically think we should live in a socialist utopia, but if you simply complain that our laws are not socialist enough, you will get nowhere, because no one will want to work with you.

      In other words, before you introduce a new license, you'll need to introduce a thought revolution.

      Good luck.

    16. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      1. Capitalism doesn't charge for effort. It charges what the market will bear. For software there is often an especially big disconnect between development cost and revenue. Free software shouldn't be forced into cost-plus pricing. If you developed Minecraft in six months work, would you forgo billions as an unfair payment?

      Changing for something that doesn't take effort doesn't last for very long in real market economy. Market forces will push price to 0. If you try to make long term revenue stream from this you're essentially trying to bypass market economy. I kinda thought that capitalism is about worshipping market economy, not bypassing it. So from my point of view all schemes requiring payments for rights to use software, no matter whether for opensource or proprietary software are antithetical to capitalism.

    17. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by Mandrel · · Score: 1

      Yes, when there's perfect competition, easy money is eliminated. But that almost never happens. Capitalists make killings all the time with things like patents, consumer ignorance, consumer inertia, competitor inertia, and marketing spin.

    18. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding. by loonycyborg · · Score: 1

      s/Capitalists/Aristocratic nobility/

  11. Devs are crappy businessmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Developing software is one thing. Its basically a personal devotion to solve a problem. Its just the dev in his cave writing code to solve A problem.

    Business is dealing with people, LOTS of people. Who all want different things, almost none of them are a very critical concern of the dev.

    Writing code and making is free is not a business. You are not selling anything nor are you offering a service. You need that middle connection. That's why Business managers are a thing and get paid to do what they do.

    Do you think the top level OSS based businesses would have gotten where they are if the devs collaborated more? LOL NO

    1. Re: Devs are crappy businessmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Venture capital turns everything it touches into evil shit.

    2. Re:Devs are crappy businessmen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Developers actually believe that would work. Lets not burst their aspie bubbles.

  12. Re: Lynnfag Apologycock here to say nothing is wro by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Go home, David Brock. You're drunk again.

  13. Math by religionofpeas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How can we fix the broken economics of free developments in mathematics ?

    1. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Research if funded by the government (depending on the result some people could underpaid for the impact they have), and as such the result is free for everyone.

      Why not do the same with software?

    2. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can make the math journals open-access?

    3. Re:Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because I don't want to pay you to "research" software that will be of no use to any but a very small niche - or anyone, sometimes. That's how you get research into the sex lives of an obscure tree frog paid for by gov grants.

    4. Re: Math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter what you want. It's what makes the human experience better. We are about moving the human race forward. We aren't worried about YOU.

  14. Stacking the deck by mvdwege · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I generally stop reading if the opening argument starts by stacking the deck:

    If we take consulting, services, and support off the table as an option for high-growth revenue generation

    "but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?"

    --
    "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    1. Re:Stacking the deck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is that kind of revenue does not scale well, because it is based on labor hours and you only have so many hours to work and charge. To make the kind of money that the VCs care about, you need a revenue stream that can scale up and not be limited by your working hours.

    2. Re:Stacking the deck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe that means the economics of VC's are broken and that the economics of OSS are fine.

    3. Re:Stacking the deck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ding, ding!

    4. Re:Stacking the deck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      High growth revenue generation is MBA speak for "something we can get for a fixed cost and sell infinity times". Services, consulting, and support have significant cost of sale, so the more you sell the more infrastructure and people you need., and are very price-sensitive because if you charge too much people will do it themselves or a competitor will easily set up and undercut you.

      Essentially they want to be in a position where they can make money not from what they do, but what they own - the very definition of rent seeking.

  15. 100% FOSS or no FOSS by bug1 · · Score: 1

    There should be a license that doesnt allow any commercial software to be distributed on the same device or medium.

    The same concept that debian uses to seperate main, contrib, non-free

    But it skeptical it can be fixed now, there is too much money invested in capitalizing on other people work, it would be like ending slavery...

    1. Re:100% FOSS or no FOSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could use a license that did the opposite, not allowing any commercial software to be prohibited on the same device or medium.

      But this is totally unrelated to the problem described in the article where it's difficult to get the money needed to make sure most of the open source software actually exists and is any good. Yes there would still be some open source software without any money. No there would not be enough good open source software without any money.

    2. Re:100% FOSS or no FOSS by SuricouRaven · · Score: 2

      Microsoft used to have an exact opposite of that licence - back when their war with open source was at it's peak, some of their development licenses had a clause referring to 'identified software.' It doesn't only forbid developers from releasing source code, it forbids them from utilising open-source development tools or libraries, and even from allowing their software to be distributed on the same media as open source software. This dates from the 'M$' era though, when they were at the most aggressively anticompetative - believe they have toned it down now, but you can still find the clause in licences for some of their older products.

      Here's an example from the Windows XP Embedded licence:
      ---
      Identified Software. Your license rights to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT are conditioned upon you
      (a) not incorporating Identified Software into, or combining Identified Software with, the
      SOFTWARE PRODUCT or a derivative work thereof; (b) not distributing Identified Software in
      conjunction with the SOFTWARE PRODUCT or a derivative work thereof; and (c) not using
      Identified Software in the development of a derivative work of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.
      “Identified Software” means software which is licensed pursuant to terms that directly or indirectly
      (i) create, or purport to create, obligations for Microsoft with respect to the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
      or derivative work thereof or (ii) grant, or purport to grant, to any third party any rights or
      immunities under Microsoft’s intellectual property or proprietary rights in the SOFTWARE
      PRODUCT or derivative work thereof. Identified Software includes, without limitation, any
      software that requires as a condition of use, modification and/or distribution of such software that
      other software incorporated into, derived from or distributed with such software be (a) disclosed or
      distributed in source code form; (b) be licensed for the purpose of making derivative works; or (c) be
      redistributable at no charge.

  16. Excerpt says it all by SlowDancing · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >>If we take consulting, services, and support off the table as an option for high-growth revenue generation (the only thing VCs care about)

    As if high growth, and the concentration of wealth to those that drive it, were worthwhile goals for all human endeavours.

    1. Re:Excerpt says it all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's take all they ways people make money on open source off the table, then yes suddenly it is hard to make money.

    2. Re:Excerpt says it all by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the modern Silicon Valley business model: make something grow fast by any means necessary (including violating user privacy), and hope you get acquired by a bigger player so the investors can cash out and move on to the next thing. The idea of bootstrapping a real business or selling products/services as a long-term effort is foreign to them.

  17. By violating the GPL terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A la GRSecurity.

  18. Training by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    About a year ago I started a new business providing voice services to small businesses in my area (VOIP).

    I specifically opted to use FusionPBX because it's completely free, so getting started is no cost other than some time figuring out how it all works.

    After I got more familiar with it, I came to find the author actually provides training courses for more advanced features.

    He charges a fair price for classes, and who better to learn more advanced features than the person who writes the software.

    I really like this model because its free for those who just want to fiddle, and in depth education is available for those who plan to make a living from it. The author makes some money to keep the project going.

    He also maintains an online resource available for those who take the in person training to keep up on the changes on the platform called "Continuing Education" for a monthly fee.

  19. Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Solandri · · Score: 2

    Klein also suggests OSS foundations start providing fellowships to key maintainers,

    That's not gonna fix it. If anything it's going to make it worse.

    People keep viewing pay software as the software authors demanding money from users. It's actually the other way around. Users paying software authors is how they signal what features they like or want. That's how users influence the direction of future software development - the software authors want to be paid more, so they make changes or implement features and fix bugs that the users want.

    Without payment, open source is basically a dictatorship. The software authors dictate what features to add, what bugs get priority, what new direction the software should take. The users are powerless. This gives contributors and especially maintainers an inflated ego, which makes them even more resistant to accept user feedback and suggestions. Paying maintainers from a foundation would just exacerbate this behavior by inflating their egos even more, and further insulating them from user feedback.. (The VLC developer eventually relented after a couple years, after much ass-kissing by users, and changed VLC so you could assign the mouse wheel to something other than volume.)

    If you want to fix it without having users pay for open source software, then I can think of two ways. Either you need to eliminate the egos of the programmers and maintainers, which realistically is never going to happen. Or you need to set up a system where users can pledge a bounty payment for when the project implements a feature or fixes a bug the user wants. The payment should be held in escrow (refunded after a certain time to encourage timely action), to be awarded to the open source project only if the user-requested feature is added or bug fixed. That would fix open source by giving users a say in the course of software development again (other than ass-kissing), without the stigma of requiring all users to pay to use the software.

    That'll turn open source software from whatever the hell the programmers and maintainers want it to be. To something which the users actually want, and which addresses their needs and requirements. The way things are right now, open source is frequently throwing free food at users when what the users really want is water. With the project maintainers and contributors ignoring user pleas for water because making food is more fun or fulfilling.

    1. Re: Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a fantastic idea.

    2. Re:Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open source developers tend to have privately held reasons that they work on open source software.

      For some it may be something like fielding testing ideas that they plan to implement in a different project that is paid. Or perhaps for use as a proof of capability or resume enhancement. You can never know.

      With commercial software, the user motivations and the developer motivations tend to align.

      For open source projects, the user motivations and the developers almost certainly do not align.

      For open source projects, fulfilling user demand often makes things worse for a developer and tends to draw closer a "Tragedy of the Commons" scenario.

      For many open source projects, having a user pool beyond a certain number becomes a liability and strain because it taxes free and finite resources (the developer(s) time).

      So many open source projects actually have motivation to NOT do things that users want.

      The economics ... if it is such a thing at all ... has a tendency towards the broken with open source development.

    3. Re:Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With commercial software, the user motivations and the developer motivations tend to align.

      Are you kidding? There is plenty of proprietary software in which the user needs and developer motivations never align.

      In addition, I would much rather use open source software developed by someone who is genuinely motivated to improve the code than software from some grunt who's motivation is a paycheck and who is trying to keep a manager off of his back.

    4. Re:Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Skinkie · · Score: 1

      Or you need to set up a system where users can pledge a bounty payment for when the project implements a feature or fixes a bug the user wants.

      The problem is not the cost of the new feature development. The problem is the cost of maintaining that specific part in the future (long tail). If the feature is delivered and the bounty is awarded for that, that will not keep in mind the cost by the project maintainer(s). Hence it is likely to attract external bounty hunters, coders for hire, but not what is needed to have a stable revenue for the project itself.

      --
      Support Eachother, Copy Dutch Property!
    5. Re:Fixing it means accepting user feedback by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you want to fix it without having users pay for open source software, then I can think of two ways. Either you need to eliminate the egos of the programmers and maintainers, which realistically is never going to happen. Or you need to set up a system where users can pledge a bounty payment for when the project implements a feature or fixes a bug the user wants. The payment should be held in escrow (refunded after a certain time to encourage timely action), to be awarded to the open source project only if the user-requested feature is added or bug fixed. That would fix open source by giving users a say in the course of software development again (other than ass-kissing), without the stigma of requiring all users to pay to use the software.

      This actually exists, BTW: http://bountysource.com/

  20. There is no way to fix it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No other industry gives up trade secrets and expect to profit from it.

    1. Re:There is no way to fix it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Librarians.

  21. do not take redhat off the table by jjohn_h · · Score: 1

    >>> If we take consulting, services, and support off the table as an option for high-growth revenue generation
    >>>

    What about Redhat?

  22. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    So VC's are whining OSS isn't "profitable enough"? Are you.. are you kidding me? That's got to be the most hilarious unintentional joke ever to come out of the Valley. I mean it's great on so many levels!

  23. Some projects lack broad range of skills by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    If there is any 'broken economics' it is that some disciplines appear to be more forthcoming and generous with time than others. For example, I see a lot of talented coders on projects but no evidence of Technical Writers, UX Designers or possibly Business Analysts... eg lots of volunteers for the cool bits but not so many for the boring stuff, like writing help guides! SoapUI is my favourite example of a project that has very useful free functionality and also comprehensive tutorials, guides etc - plus a commercial offering that gives a more enterprise-level product.

    1. Re: Some projects lack broad range of skills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know some folks that just write little guides and tutorials, usually for themselves so they don't have to figure it out again.

      But the commercial software is often even worse. Just look at Microsoft's documentation, it's terrible. Unclear indication of what applies to which version and most of the helpful stuff doesn't show up in the documents, you need to read about it on a consultant's website.

      Ultimately, whether it's free software or paid, the quality of the documentation and support are vital to getting people involved both using and developing it.

  24. Apache model? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't this already exactly how the Apache model works (or used to)?
    Multiple companies each sponsored a developer to have a seat on the Apache project board giving them a controlling vote(s) on what direction to develop the project in next. All the companies contributing, and everyone else not, benefited by the resulting Apache project results. The sponsoring companies got their needs met sooner (and at all).

  25. tax payer to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Depending on usage, let the government's of the world pay. Either post-production (something being used creates eligibility for a certain amount), and more importantly, instead of buying commercial products for government use, hire people to do the work, and let everyone enjoy the result. Just count the money governments around the world today pay, and what kind of horde of highly qualified individuals they could hire for that money.

  26. It's not about money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, you can't get want you want for free ?. Pay for it.

    The rest of us will keep on doing what we want, when we want and how we want. And we don't really give a damn that your revenue stream isn't high enough.

    That isn't broken, it just means most OS developers aren't someoen's slave. A lot like artists and poets in ages past really.

  27. Parenthood by petes_PoV · · Score: 1
    Software development is like having a family.

    Many people like the "fun" of making a baby but not so many are prepared to accept the responsibility of supporting the child into adulthood. Producing software has many of the same attributes. Writing software is fun, creative. Fixing problems is a chore.

    Continually updating your "progeny" to stay compatible with changing O/S and API requirements is boring. Making it compatible with the other programs in the environment is difficult and making it usable, well-designed and intuitive needs a rare skill set.

    To encourage "good parenting" in FOSS, we should place more value on projects that are kept up to date. Where the authors show commitment to fixing bugs, new releases (although most FOSS could do with far fewer new features and more time spent on improving what is already there) and making it easy for the user to use - documentation, examples, explanations.

    --
    politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
    1. Re:Parenthood by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      documentation, examples, explanations.

      Bwahahahaha! Sorry, couldn't help it.

  28. The entire debt-based economy has problems by yuhong · · Score: 1

    I dislike the entire debt-based economy and has for a while. One of the problems with it is that it is based on extracting more dollars from "consumers". You can also see this in DRM for music and video for example. In my Google DoubleClick essay I mentioned Novell and Sun as examples.

  29. It's the progeammers value system by pcause · · Score: 1

    If you want a great example of why the open source ecosystem is broken, look at how we value code versus documentation. We expect to get ten of thousands of lines of code - someone's labor - for free but will then pay O'Reilly $50 for the book explaining the software? So writing code has no value but writing a book about the code does? Yes, open source economics is broekn but it is really the value system of the programmers that has been warped.

    1. Re:It's the progeammers value system by jeremyp · · Score: 1

      If the book was available under an open licence, people wouldn't pay for the book either.

      --
      All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
    2. Re:It's the progeammers value system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why FOSS is a dead end.

      Making it free benefits almost no one. Ok, you have the source. but now your are getting a segfault. What now??? Dive into thousands of lines of code yourself? LOL NO.

      Devs are shitty businessmen.

    3. Re:It's the progeammers value system by PPH · · Score: 1

      I'm not so sure about that. Back in the early days, O'Reilly really took off by producing hard copies of Xlib man pages.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re:It's the progeammers value system by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Really? The FSF seems to get quite some.income out of their.manuals, among others.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    5. Re: It's the progeammers value system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What? I haven't seen a seg fault in a long time.

  30. Economics as such is broken, not OSS economics by demon+driver · · Score: 1

    The fundamental flaw is that in economics-as-we-know-it things are done purely for profit, not for getting things done. Which all too often leads to the wrong things being done, or the right things being done in a disastrously wrong way. For the economy, it's just as well as long as there is profit.

    OSS economics now has the "problem" that OSS is about getting things done, not about profit. And it's about, if possible, getting the right things done the right way.

    The clash between OSS and economics-as-we-know-it is indeed a good reason to think about what is really going wrong, and how it can be repaired. Hint: to bend and break OSS economics until it somehow fits into profit-based economics is probably not the answer.

    1. Re:Economics as such is broken, not OSS economics by BlueStrat · · Score: 2

      The fundamental flaw is that in economics-as-we-know-it things are done purely for profit, not for getting things done.

      It's more an intrinsic part of basic human nature, not "economics".

      It's why Socialism fails (in larger and diverse societies) and capitalism succeeds. Socialism fails because it depends on people doing things not in their own personal self-interest that benefits others but not themselves. You end up with the old Soviet trope "we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us". Capitalism leverages that self-interest and allows people's pursuance of self-interest to benefit society and the world as a whole.

      I mostly agree with some of the posters above, that TFS/A starts off excluding up front all the profitable services that add value and bitches that F/OSS can't be turned into rent-seeking proprietary software selling copies of the same set of ones and zeroes over and over. Well, duh! 'Working as intended'.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
  31. Another thing UBI will fix. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In a post scarcity economy, of which this is just another example, Universal Basic Income will allow everyone to keep working on their pet projects whenever they want, and get little extras from services.

  32. With a charity share brokerage that supports PM by shanen · · Score: 1

    Couldn't find any similar reference, and not motivated by today's Slashdot to search more carefully. However I will repeat what I believe to be the best approach:

    Use a CSB (charity share brokerage) to help manage the OSS projects. Software gets funded only when enough donors are willing to "buy" the charity shares for the project. The brokerage makes sure that the project proposals are complete including the success criteria, and evaluates the finished projects to report the results to the donors and the public. The projects can be quite flexible including (1) new software, (2) new features for existing software, (3) support projects, (4) ongoing cost projects (as when a server is required to support software or features) and others. The goal is to let the donors focus on the work but the CSB earns a fraction (perhaps a tithe) from funded project in exchange for providing the project management support.

    Same basic idea can be modified to support journalism and several other applications. As far as I know, it is not loose in the the wild, but I'd be quite pleased (and surprised) to learn about (1) an existing implementation or (2) your better idea. NOT interested in the usual snideness, especially from people who haven't even read what I wrote. Time's up, but ADSAuPR, atAJG.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  33. Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I can't make money by just sitting on my arse and waiting for it to roll in" argues Matt Klein, a senior software engineer at Lyft (who created Envoy). "My business model doesn't appear to generate any money for me, but it should." Instead of changing his business to suit reality, which involves thinking and hard work, Matt argues instead that reality should change to accomodate him.

    1. Re: Translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This week on manswerssssss.

  34. Devs who "expect to make substantial salaries" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    by highly skilled professional developers (who in turn expect to make substantial salaries), but no one wants to pay for it

    The Joker: If you're good at something, never do it for free

  35. Re: A fundamental misunderstanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    if we were clever, we could get rid of the middleman ... coopetition ... take the common software requirements of Fortune 100 corporations: they could build an alliance and pay for the common software they need on themselves; it could be open source and developers could be payed for the part that takes the effort -it won't happen in a million years. Not because "open source is broken" but because *we* are broken.

    Yup, the crux here is inefficiency introduced by unconstrained profit-seeking. The cost of production is tiny compared to the overhead - management, marketing, legal, ... all bloated by trying to maximize profit. Not that socialism solves that - the bloat just becomes governmental.

  36. fuck them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason I don't buy software is that I am prevented from running it on all the devices I own. The day this is the case with OSS is the day I stop using it.

  37. Well, let's define what's "broken" here. by hey! · · Score: 1

    It's the ability of VCs to monetize open source software.

    Not a problem for me, or for established businesses either.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  38. Get paid more working on open source, via cooperat by raymorris · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've worked full time getting paid quite well to work on open source.

    Open source doesn't mean developers work for free. They get paid by the same people who normally pay them. It's just that cooperation makes them more efficient, so they can potentially be paid more. I'll give you one example that I have allot of experience with.

    Universities (and others) are offering a lot of courses online these days. Suppose 40 institutions want to offer online courses. They each need an online system to manage those courses, an online campus. Suppose having such a system is worth $60,000 to each school. A programmer can build it in 500 hours at a cost of $30,000, so each school does it. (It'll cost them $30K and be worth $60k of value). Forty schools each spending $30k is a total of $1,200,000 spent. Later when they want other features they'll spend more.

    Alternatively they can cooperate, building a modular online campus system that works well for all of them. Maybe that costs four times as much as building a system for one school - 2,000 hours, or $120,000. That's 90% less than it costs for them to each build their own. Later, when a school wants a new feature, it was already built for a different school. They just install it.

    In the first scenario, the programmers each took 500 hours to provide something worth $60k. In the second scenario, 40 programmers at 40 schools spent a total of 2,000 hours. That's 50 hours per programmer to provide the same $60,000 of value to their school.

    Who do you think can be paid more per hour: a programmer who takes 500 hours to get the job done, or one who gets the same job done in 50 hours?

    Far from "working for free", by cooperating on an open source project we were able to provide the same value with 90% less work from each of us, so we were much more valuable and highly paid than a programmer who doesn't cooperate and use open source effectively.

  39. Did you forget about #4? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    You wrote #4 (we need to use the software, selling the software isn't our business), then you seemed to completely forget about that when you wrote your conclusion.

    Cooperating with other organizations who have the same needs rather than having 100 different companies each build their own is better for everyone. See:

    https://slashdot.org/comments....

  40. The bits aren't the business by raymorris · · Score: 2

    The bits don't just come in, set themselves up, configure themselves, integrate themselves with your existing business systems, customize themselves to your needs, and maintain themselves. The software itself is one ingredient in solving a business solution with a software system.

    I've worked full-time, being paid well, working with and working on open source software for many years. Some companies hired me to handle their open source software, customizing and maintaining it, being the expert on it. See this for more:

    https://slashdot.org/comments....

    However, at least 50% of companies and schools were nervous about having just one or two in-house experts and decided to instead contract with a third-party company to deploy, customize, and maintain the open source software. Those third-party companies have teams of developers and technicians which do nothing but work of open source software.

    1. Re:The bits aren't the business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are some of these companies?

    2. Re:The bits aren't the business by mcswell · · Score: 1

      But doesn't your approach--installation, support etc.--presupposes that the free software already exists? Unless the company that wrote the free software, and the company that offers your installation+support services to the customer, are one and the same.

      (I'm not trying to troll, I'm trying to understand the business model of whoever it is that writes the free software in the beginning. We have a linux sysadmin where I work, and I think he's well paid, but he didn't write Linux.)

  41. Ubi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Universal Basic Income

  42. Lack of ethics is the real problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the mindset is 'cheaper to go to court' vs. reduce risk of death, you are simply reducing life to a cost benefit. Tragic.
    Until ethics are applied to economics and the open source community, it's all fucked.

  43. Greed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Typical capitalist upset for lack of opportunistic monetization.

  44. On what planet is that not a crime though? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Sell" it infinity times? But work only once? And somehow that is not theft/robbery/fraud?

    Sounds like planet Capitalism.

    (Actually, to be precise, there is nothing wrong with capitalism, except this. And it could be argued that capitalism can be defined to not include this.)

  45. The difference between making and earning money. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To me, profit is the part of the income that is not earned, but "made". So either taken without giving something back, just like theft, robbery, fraud, ... Or generated out of thin air, like stock markets... which devalues the currency, generated inflation, and hence devalues everyone's actually earned income.

    Both of which should be criminal, and even major crimes due to doing it to masses of people, IMHO.

  46. Microsoft havenâ(TM)t changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are just as unpleasant and nasty as they ever have been. Just they donâ(TM)t shout as much as during the Ballmer epoch.

  47. Established ways by stikves · · Score: 1

    We already have several ways to "pay for" free and open software.

    1) Dual licensing: Several high profile projects, including QT, Ghostware, and MySQL use these for benefiting both closed source commercial, and open software. There is even research on this topic: https://www.sciencedirect.com/...

    2) "Patronage": Since middle ages artists depended on wealthy "patrons" to commission their work. The end result was "open" in sense they were usually presented in cathedrals, or museums, but the work was paid for powerful individuals. Now we have companies like IBM, RedHat, and even Microsoft sponsoring open source projects that benefit all.

    3) Amateur work. The work itself has an intrinsic value in terms of intellectual gratification. Many people will contribute to open source projects just because they can on their own time.

    The system actually is tested and works. It has produced great results, and used by billions of people today. Of course new ideas for patronage could arise, but it does not mean the current ones are broken.

  48. Stupid premise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's ignore all the ways you can fund open source development, and then declare there's a crisis in how to fund open source development.

  49. More by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The point of working on something for free is the work

    Not always. The reasons I write free software are, in order:

    o So I have the exact feature set I want
    o So I have control, which means an insightful ability to fix and enhance
    o So that when a bug is found, I can fix it immediately.
    o So companies that "upgrade" their apps into a non-working state with my OS can go suck eggs
    o So that my OS vendor, who upgrades the OS into a non-working state with apps, can go suck eggs
    o And the very last thing is, to share the results. Perfectly willing to do that.

    It's not to earn money. I know better. The world isn't going to beat path to my door. The only way to make money with free software is to offer "support", which really means what you wrote is some combination of unreliable, poorly documented, feature-incomplete, or self- or OS-obsoleted. No thank you. I want my stuff to work, and I want it to be intuitive, and I want it to be well documented.

    --fyngyrz*

    * Anon due to mod points, because Slashdot moderation rules are stupid.
    Soylent News does it better. A lot better.

  50. MIT vs GPL mndset by reanjr · · Score: 1

    MIT devs believe they are developing solutions to problems. GPL devs think they are developing products. Only one of these groups has an issue.

    I spend 90% of my time getting paid to write MIT licensed software. The economics work fine.

  51. Not that hard to understand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It smells like communism to me.

    No, the OSS movement is mostly (not all) the consequence of a generation weaned on thinking adulation is the end goal, instead of food on the table. It takes a while to learn you can't eat thumbs-ups.

    There are some people who are truly motivated by contributing to the public good. Not many though. Most of those people have significant sources of other income. I certainly do, otherwise I couldn't possibly afford to develop the free software applications I do. My income came from commercial software. So I'm pretty sensitive to the "you can live on this" but "you can't live on that" economic factors.

  52. Implications & Legacy of Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think too few FOSS fanatics think about the legacy of words and branding. What does the "F" in FOSS stand for again?

    Once you use the word free, you live with the consequences of that word. No amount of attempting to rebrand the system with "Not Free as in Beer, Free as in Freedom" can overcome that. Marketing thinkers have written many books about the promise and peril of branding. And let's face it, FOSS aficionados use the Free As In Beer aspect to promote FOSS every time it suits them. Therefore even the rebranding attempts are undermined at every turn.

    LynnwoodRooster, posting above, said it correctly. All software travels a road that leads eventually to becoming a commodity, FOSS merely accelerates that trip. Fuzzy thinking on this point has led many FOSS fanatics to some starry-eyed and incorrect conclusions about what FOSS is and can accomplish.

    FOSS has become equated with Free As In Beer. This lives in direct contradiction to software programmers and analysts who want to be paid a living wage. Once the customers place an economic value of $0 on your product, why would they pay top dollar for the analysts who create, support and promote that product?

    I'm not saying there's no way to resolve this conflict, but I do think that FOSS is burdened by this situation and has not really come up with great answers to it. No, don't give me your Red Hat miracle stories either, one positive situation (or even several) does not demonstrate a constructive, cohesive response to the problem, promise and contradiction of Free.

  53. What software? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    If there is specific software you are interested in, I can post some companies that provide the business services around the software, while supporting the core development team.

    As one example Moodle is an open source learning management system (online campus) with 80 third-party companies who can set it up, configure and customize it, write custom modules, host it, and maintain it, provide training, etc (whichever more of services your school or company needs). Each of these contributes funds back to Moodle HQ
    https://moodle.com/partners/

     

    1. Re:What software? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GIMP in particular.

  54. This is a teachable moment. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You buy them a nice reusable bottle. If they lose it, the replacement cost comes out of their allowance. You'll find that they will become VERY vigilant when it affects their pocketbook the first time.

  55. AGPL v3 -- iTextSharp -- license interpretation by cpm99352 · · Score: 1

    OK, I'm asking in good faith... Is the AGPL v3 license in accordance with what the owner of iTextSharp says? There appears to be a huge disconnect in the licensing terms for AGPL v3 vs. what iTextSharp says.

    The ambiguity is apparently so sharp that Google forbids usage of any open source software using AGPL:

    WARNING: Code licensed under the GNU Affero General Public License (AGPL) MAY NOT be used at Google.

    The license places restrictions on software used over a network which are extremely difficult for Google to comply with. Using AGPL software requires that anything it links to must also be licensed under the AGPL. Even if you think you aren’t linking to anything important, it still presents a huge risk to Google because of how integrated much of our code is. The risks heavily outweigh the benefits.

    Do not attempt to check AGPL-licensed code into google3 or use it in a Google product in any way.
    Do not install AGPL-licensed programs on your workstation, Google-issued laptop, or Google-issued phone without explicit authorization from the Open Source Programs Office.


    Given this confusion, does anyone wishing to speak about the economics of open source want to actually talk about the legal amgiguities of open source licensing?

  56. Ask the developers here by raymorris · · Score: 1

    I don't know any off hand since I'm not really involved with Gimp. Here's the developers mailing list, where you can ask the people who build Gimp about who can help you, people and companies providing paid support, training, customization, or whatever you want.

    https://mail.gnome.org/mailman...

    I'd first get clear about what you want. Training? Do you want someone to write some custom modules for Gimp? Do you want an on-call Gimp expert?

  57. Most often a bare-bones beginning exists by raymorris · · Score: 1

    It varies. I would say I my experience, most often a bare-bones software exists, a starting point, before multiple people start working on it professionally. Someone, either a company or person, writes something small and simple to "scratch their itch" (solve their own need), then other people find it useful and a community grows up around it. That can easily mean someone puts in 20 hours building a script to load X onto Y hardware, then eventually others spend thousands of hours building it into something far bigger, very often programmers being paid to add another feature or module.

      WordPress is a reasonable example here. It was a VERY simple set of scripts. Then one guy with a web site paid anothet guy $200 to add some feature to WordPress. Another web site owner paid another programmer $150 to improve something else. The company I used to own sent out a lot invoices for $100-$400 for improvements to WordPress or WordPress modules. We and hundreds of other companies turned a simple blog script into something more complex and powerful than some operating systems.

    One software project I was heavily involved with started as three guys on a forum cooperating to get about five lines of of .htaccess absolutely correct. Someonw offered me, Mike, or Chuck $75 to expand it to fit their need. It grew to a over dozen lines of .htaccess configuration, then someone added a 50-line Perl script. Years later, it was a very capable security system used on hundreds of thousands of web sites, with plug-in modules available from multiple companies.

    I've been involved in multiple open source projects which followed the Netscape-Seamonkey-Firefox model. A company producing proprietary software releases their software as open source, perhaps as they either go out of business or drastically reduce their work force. Firefox doesn't have a ton of companies selling work around Firefox and Gecko but there are some and there could be more. If you want something built on Gecko, or you want someone to write and submit a Gecko patch to support something you need, there are people who will do that for you.

    Several companies sell OpenWrt based routers and otherwise contribute to the OpenWrt ecosystem. This is an example of another model. Linksys created the router firmware, several companies are now contributors. The Linux kernel existed before Linksys put it in routers, Linksys did a lot of work to produce a router firmware which included the kernel.

    So there are many different paths. One path includes an individual programmer writing the first part for their own reasons, unpaid. Several other paths start with programmers getting paid from the beginning.

  58. I lost focus on the question. Post 40-line script by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > I'm trying to understand the business model of whoever it is that writes the free software in the beginning.

    My first reply may not have been well-focused on answering this question. I did some tangents. The main thing I'd say about "whoever it is that writes the free software in the beginning" is this:

    The the BEGINNING, the software may very well take less than an hour to write. Someone whips up a simple script to solve their problem and posts that script on a forum.

    If several people on the forum find it useful, you can easily see how one person might add two or three lines to fit their particular model or version. Someone else notices that the 60-line program has a bug on line #22. An open source project is born - no business model needed.

  59. how can we fix economics? by xophos · · Score: 1

    Venture capitalism is completely unsustainable and broken.

  60. Re:Get paid more working on open source, via coope by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or...

    An entrepreneur invests in a few programmers (not 40, which is overkill), writes the software, invests in advertising and sales, sells it to 40000 schools for $1000 each, plus has money left over to support the development for a few years after, improving the software at will.

    Everybody wins.

    Except you, who it sounds like is ripping off your current employer. For shame!

  61. Marketing, sales, licensing are expenses by raymorris · · Score: 1

    > Or... An entrepreneur invests in a few programmers (not 40, which is overkill), writes the software, invests in advertising and sales, sells it

    You as the customer can pay for advertising, sales, and the entrpeneurs profit, or you can just pay only the cost of the developers and skip the salesmen in their $1,000 suits. Would you rather pay for sales and sales marketing, and license audits by your vendors, or would you rather your money go to better software?

  62. Use open source + hire devs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The more a companie uses open source the more devs they should hire and everyone can eat the free cake mentioned in some comments.