Python Joins Movement To Dump 'Offensive' Master, Slave Terms (theregister.co.uk)

Python creator Guido van Rossum retired in July, but he's been pulled back in to resolve a debate about politically incorrect language. The Register reports: Like other open source communities, Python's minders have been asked whether they really want to continue using the terms "master" and "slave" to describe technical operations and relationships, given that the words remind some people of America's peculiar institution, a historical legacy that fires political passions to this day. Last week Victor Stinner, a Python developer who works for Red Hat, published four pull requests seeking to change "master" and "slave" in Python documentation and code to terms like "parent," "worker," or something similarly anodyne. "For diversity reasons, it would be nice to try to avoid 'master' and 'slave' terminology which can be associated to slavery," he explained in his bug report, noting that there have been complaints but they've been filed privately -- presumably to avoid being dragged into a fractious flame war. And when Python 3.8 is released, there will be fewer instances of these terms.

Comments

Re

[pele]

So what about people who are unable to have children, will they get offended by references to 'parent'?
This has gotten out of hand, definitely.

Re:Re

[stealth_finger]

So what about people who are unable to have children, will they get offended by references to 'parent'? This has gotten out of hand, definitely.

What about orphans, will they take kindly to constantly be reminded of parents? Why won't anyone think of the childrens?

Re: Re

[liquid_schwartz]

time to go binary...

Unfortunately many identify as non-binary. We'll have to keep looking for new metaphors

Re: Re

[SqueakyMouse]

Well thatth thertainly offenthive!

Re: Re

[MouseR]

Did you just frickin assume my preferred language?

Re:Re

[lgw]

The worst part is

given that the words remind some people of America's peculiar institution

Really? Slavery was a thing for all of recorded human history. Even now it's alive and well in places like Qatar. American slavery is an embarrassment to America, as we were slow to abandon it compared to Europe, and it took a war to do so. But slavery as a concept? It's hard to find any location on Earth with a written history that doesn't include slavery staining that history. It's not in any way "America's peculiar institution".

I've heard there are Millennials who were never taught that there were slaves in Europe, Rome, Egypt, Sumeria, etc, basically any place with government established enough to leave written records.

Re:Re

[SCVonSteroids]

What about when you destroy the parent?
You've effectively orphaned its children. Now thats some pretty nasty nomenclature.

Re:Re

[msauve]

I think they should use bourgeois and prole instead.

Re:Re

[magarity]

So what about people who are unable to have children, will they get offended by references to 'parent'?

I suggest the terms "coordinator" and "volunteer".

Re:Re

[BronsCon]

And black people who weren't alive when slavery was commonplace aren't your pawns, either. Can we please stop using them? Seriously, let them rest, they've been free for over a century and a half now.

Re: Re

[K. S. Kyosuke]

LISP is an offensive term, it's called Lisp today. Off with you to a reeducation camp!

Re:Re

[K. S. Kyosuke]

There are many more orphans today in the US than there are slaves, which makes it even more imbecilic.

Re:Re

[cayenne8]

JFC....when will the political correctness stupid shit just die??

This one got to me:

"...given that the words remind some people of America's peculiar institution,:

Seriously? I mean, LOTS of countries had slaves if my history memory serves me right.

For goodness sakes...slavery ended a LONG time ago, get over it...move on.

These terms have nothing to do with slavery in any country.

What's next? Do we have to rename the "master" brake cylinder on your car?

Re:Re

[rl117]

It's fairly certain that they don't know that "slave" and "serf" are derived from "Slav". What, white people were slaves? Surely not! Only blacks suffered from slavery in their world, despite it being a historically worldwide phenomenon.

Re: Re

[CoolDiscoRex]

Political Correctness flourises during periods of prosperity. This is because the needs of the affluent class are met, and the human mind craves problems to solve. Lacking adequate challenges to overcome, people will create their own. If you pay attention during the next recession, policital correctness will attenuate, only to come roaring back when things turn back around. It's also used as a hedge against lower-class cooperation during periods of expanding wealth inequity. You want the poor black man to look suspiciously at the poor white man, which is why wealthy whites whack the racial bees nest as often as possible then point to the "rednecks", and not the wealthy politicians who routinely sell them all. out. Fewer things scare the upper-classes more than the lower-classes begin to existing relatively peacefully. After all, there's way more of the lower classes than there are of the upper. Divide and conquer.

Re:Re

[thrich81]

This probably violates some written or unwritten /. rule, but I'm going to repeat a reply I made to someone else since your point is the same as theirs. You aren't interpreting "America's peculiar institution" as the historians who use it professionally do.
The reference to slavery as America's "Peculiar Institution" is a term which goes back deep into the 19th century and isn't meant to imply that slavery is peculiar (as in "unique") to America but that slavery in the US was peculiar in the "different from other institutions" sense. It seems to have been coined by by the Southern pro-slavery politician John C Calhoun in 1837. A quick reference:
"PECULIAR INSTITUTION was a euphemistic term that white southerners used for slavery. John C. Calhoun defended the "peculiar labor" of the South in 1828 and the "peculiar domestick institution" in 1830. The term came into general use in the 1830s when the abolitionist followers of William Lloyd Garrison began to attack slavery. Its implicit message was that slavery in the U.S. South was different from the very harsh slave systems existing in other countries and that southern slavery had no impact on those living in northern states." -- from https://www.encyclopedia.com/h... [encyclopedia.com].
The term is seen fairly commonly in scholarly works, including this book from 1956, "The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South" by Kenneth M. Stampp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peculiar_Institution).

Re: Re

[BronsCon]

I'd suggest you check your colon, but you were clearly in the middle of a direct visual inspection when you wrote that.

Re:Re

[qzzpjs]

What about when you destroy the parent?

Well, normally the parent is expected to destroy all their children first, then die themselves. Can't have orphan processes running around your system... So we probably shouldn't use parent/child either for the analogy. Maybe manager/worker? Then we can think layoffs. :^)

Re:Re

[Mal-2]

"Advisor" and "Doctoral Student".

Re:Re

[Hylandr]

There's this and the rampant slavery currently ongoing in middle east countries to say nothing of the sex slavery trade.

Changing the terms used in a programming language isn't going to stop slavery anywhere. It's just more useless virtue signaling where going out and DOING something to stop slavery. Join the Polaris Project if you want to make a difference, but don't require us to refactor miles of code just to make you feel good.

https://polarisproject.org/

Re:Re

[R3d M3rcury]

Depends on whether you've experienced it.

Back in the '80s, I was working with a contractor who was writing an external process to do some work for the main process that I was working on. We were developing this and doing some testing and his process crashed. So I gave him a call to let him know what messages I was sending it when it crashed. I called him up and said, "Hey, Phil, I just got a child died event..."

*Click*. He hung up the phone.

I called back. No answer.

My co-worker, sitting next to me, told me that I really fucked up. "How so?" "Phil's kid died about 2 months ago. SIDS."

It didn't really matter that the header identified it as a "Child Died Event." And parent/child processes are a common term, as is having a process "die." And I had no idea that this had happened to his kid.

But I still felt like an absolute jerk for the pain that I brought him. And to this day, I try to avoid that terminology when I can.

Dare I say it, there may be terminology that brings up really bad memories in other people. Not everyone has the same experiences as you and certain things may offend them more than they would offend you because of those experiences.

Re:Re

[LynnwoodRooster]

Here you go.

Re: Re

[PetiePooo]

Also as a person from a nation that was ruled by hungarian kingdoms (and later the austro-hungarian empire) for a 1000 years including attempts at hungarization I am strongly offended by "hungarian notation".

Dude, we're all offended by hungarian notation!

Re: Re

[Anonymous Coward]

Political Correctness flourises during periods of prosperity. This is because the needs of the affluent class are met, and the human mind craves problems to solve. Lacking adequate challenges to overcome, people will create their own.

Yep. I often irritate a SJW type I know by reacting to some of his rants with "that's nature's way of telling you there's not enough adversity in your life."

There is another part of it, perhaps. It occurs to me, listening to him, that a lot of this is also a form of self-aggrandizement. The poor downtrodden, whomever they may be, cannot defend (or make decisions for) themselves and need him and his ilk to save them. It's a way of positioning themselves as superior to others while pretending to do the opposite.

Re: Re

[weilawei]

No, you need to grow up. We are adults here, and we learned in elementary school what homonyms are. How many words would you have us invent to alleviate the existence of homonyms and cater to your puerile mind, which immediately has to seek out discriminatory meanings in words that sound or are spelled the same, but have different definitions? How many times would you have us redefine existing terms when some asshole decides to create a discriminatory homonym based on it?

Grow up.

The right to offend is more important than the right to not be offended. That's a requirement for adults, unless you'd rather be treated by a child, with parents to tell you what you should like and what you should be offended by.

The rest of us will just use our brains and decide for ourselves, preserving our liberties and freedom of speech, even (especially) if we have to preserve it for people like you.

Re:Re

[BronsCon]

No, the reason they're trying to do it (they tried in the 90's and failed then, too) is much less meaningful. In fact, it is such a weak reason that allowing it would open a floodgate of "this offends me, change it" that would topple our society in short order. That's why we don't allow that argument to succeed.

Re:Re

[Immerman]

And in fairness it *was* rather peculiar in that it departed greatly from the historical norm for slavery. Pretty much everywhere else the children of slaves were born free, and quite often had a clear route to citizenship as well. Quite often there was a generally accepted route for captured slaves to earn their freedom as well. The idea that someone could be born into lifelong slavery was fairly uncommon.

Re: Re

[arglebargle_xiv]

The same year, Django traded "master" and "slave" for "leader" and "follower."

Or, in its German translation, Fuehrer and AnhÃnger, but the latter can also mean "trailer" so we'll use a more people-specific term, Volk. Fuehrer and Volk, that's it, no-one will be offended by that. It's a good thing there's such a rich (in German, "Reich") set of words to choose from for Django: Fuehrer, Volk, und Reich.

Re:Re

[ceoyoyo]

Always kill the children before you terminate the parent.

Re:Re

[Anonymous Coward]

While this is true, ultimately, this is a "them" problem, not a you problem. It's just polite and good nature to realize that one should be careful around a person with a temporary problem or in light of a recent event, but it is the responsibility of that person to eventually get over it. It is *not* the world's job to bend itself around a particular individual's emotional needs.

When my family die, people constantly walk on eggshells around me related to talking about fathers and mothers, etc.. It was appreciated for a short time, but eventually became embarrassing and tedious. I knew it was my job to eventually 'get over it' or if not that, to not claim it's other people's fault when regular conversation brought back painful memories. I do not expect the world to bow to my needs.

I have done similar things to what you describe, and I still feel bad about them years later, but I also know it's not my fault as in this case, you did nothing wrong. It may have been worth a "sorry I didn't know" later if the chance arose.

Re: Re

[vlad30]

Check your priveledge, white man

One thing I have always admired about the US it was the white man who fought against slavery yes he fought another white man however I am struggling to find another war fought on morals rather than for money, land, oil etc. It is those ideals that gave not only africans freedom but many others like mine also, anyone who came from a country where a minority was persecuted where they would like to escape to most would answer the US

Those "white men" deserve more respect and stop using privilege as an insult, privileges are sought after and normally bestowed of someone who has earned it

Re:Re

[nukenerd]

Pretty much everywhere else the children of slaves were born free, and quite often had a clear route to citizenship as well.

Nope. You think those Spanish galley slaves, Roman gladiators, Chinese eunichs etc had a route to freedom? Some slaves got to high rank as slaves went, and did not lead a bad life, but they were a minority. Most slaves in history would be lucky ever to have the chance of children (certainly not eunuchs unless they grew one).

Re:Re

[Gr8Apes]

And in fairness it *was* rather peculiar in that it departed greatly from the historical norm for slavery. Pretty much everywhere else the children of slaves were born free, and quite often had a clear route to citizenship as well. Quite often there was a generally accepted route for captured slaves to earn their freedom as well. The idea that someone could be born into lifelong slavery was fairly uncommon.

Ummm, no. I believe you're thinking of indentured servitude. Check your Romans, Greeks, and Egyptians for starters on slavery in the past. If you were born of a slave, you were a slave from birth. You might have a nice designation (Roman) but you were a slave. That some societies allowed some property, including money, to be "owned" by slaves and that they could sometimes buy their freedom in no way makes for a clear route to citizenship. In fact, citizenship was as exceptional to a freedman as freedmen were to slaves. In all these ways, American slavery was exactly like those others, going back through all of recorded history (minus roughly 1000 years from somewhere in the 400s through the early 1600s.

Re:Re

[sjames]

That may actually be in favor of master/slave since that is vastly less likely to trigger an actual bad memory in a living person.

Re: Re

[arglebargle_xiv]

After I posted this I realised what the real problem is, and how to fix it: Every term you want to use contains connotations of control over something, e.g. A controlling B (master/slave, whatever). No matter what terms you use, in some language or some culture it'll upset someone.

With one exception: There is a specific term for which the controlled not only don't mind, but actively seek it. That's "dom" and "sub". So I think Python should replace all occurrences of "master" and "slave" with "dom" and "sub". And then sit back while the SJWs come up with something else to be offended by, perhaps the blatantly pornographic nature of the letter "B" or the subtly suggestive "J".

more pc stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

good fucking god. you stupid fucking pc idiots are ruining the world for the majority.

Re:more pc stupidity

[wizkid]

good fucking god. you stupid fucking pc idiots are ruining the world for the majority.

So what's next.... No more /sbin/kill for processes?

Ya know, any app that has "client" in the name probably refers to prostitution... Thats got to go too.

Oh My God! /usr/bin/touch promotes sexual assult. That's got to go too.

totem is going to offend Native Americans....

mount is sexist also....

reject.. That's going to hurt someones feelings, GONE.
Fuck it, lets just burn all the computers and go back to using bows and arrows, and hunting in the woods.....

Re:more pc stupidity

[Anonymous Coward]

excuse me, I have children to kill.

Re:more pc stupidity

[BronsCon]

Because when doing X for Y reason becomes acceptable, Y becomes a viable excuse for any value of X.

Re:more pc stupidity

[Scarred Intellect]

Fuck it, lets just burn all the computers and go back to using bows and arrows, and hunting in the woods.....

Shit, the Butlerian Jihad is coming sooner than we thought (and for more inane reasons!).

facepalm

[ganjadude]

seriously? this is what the world is becoming????

Re:facepalm

[Kohath]

The Progressive religion is coming for you sinners and blasphemers!

Re:facepalm

[Austerity Empowers]

Where you see doom and gloom I see opportunity.

master -> general
slave -> private

master -> professor
slave -> grad student

master -> manager
slave -> Individual Contributor (IC)

master -> landlord
slave -> tenant

master -> bourgeoisie
slave -> proletariat

master -> oenophillic
slave -> hophead

master -> overlord
slave -> feckless heathens

master -> Hard Working American
slave -> Parasite

master -> owner
slave -> laborer

master -> manager
slave -> H1B

I could do this all day. The major takeaway is you can change the words, but the relationship is still there. I say do away with master/slave if only because it is somewhat outdated. In the spirit of hacktivism, let's choose a relationship that's more near and dear to problems we have today!

Re:facepalm

[lgw]

seriously? this is what the world is becoming????

Meh, it's not new. Editorial guidance for ANSI/ISO stanrds from 20 years ago included avoidance of "slave" (the oddball "master/peer" was recommended), as well as "cancelled, not aborted or killed" and "processed, not executed".

It gets silly, but then some technical terms become more offensive in translation, and that's a reasonable concern for a global audience.

Re:facepalm

[c]

let's choose a relationship that's more near and dear to problems we have today!

master -> lobbyist
slave -> politician

Re:facepalm

[skoskav]

master -> snake charmer
slave -> python

Re:facepalm

[alvinrod]

The terms were chosen by people with no particular connection to them, and there has always been a bit of simmering annoyance from people who do have a connection.

Who has a connection to slavery in the U.S. at this point outside of a small number of people who are typically smuggled into the country and forced to engage in prostitution, or perhaps a small number of immigrants who were essentially slaves in their native countries prior to emigrating? There's no one alive today who was a slave in the traditional sense (i.e., where this connection comes from), and I suspect you'd be hard pressed to find many people alive who even had grand parents who were slaves.

Further, almost any person can claim a connection to slavery if they want to look back far enough in their family history. It doesn't matter where you're from, your ancestors were serfs, indentured servants, chattel slaves, or a member of some other caste that lacked full status as a citizen or freeman. How far does a person get to go back in their ancestral history before we get to roll our eyes at them and tell them to stop being such a prat?

It also seems paradoxical that the umbrage taken to terminology such is this is more prevalent now, some three or four decades later (or more since someone may have broached this topic even before the 80's) when that connection to slavery would diminished due to the passage of time. The younger generations that seem so eager to seek victim status for long-past history are the generations farthest removed from it. If they want to make the world a better place, they need to get outside and help actual people who are suffering. Engaging in keyboard warrior internet slacktivism does nothing.

I nominate:

[leftCoaster]

"Gru" and "Minion"

Oh for fuck's sake

[SensitiveMale]

Does PC cultures have to infect everything?

Everyone knows that it won't stop there. A few years later there will be more "offensive" words that need to be changed. Personally, I won't stop being offended until we're all coding in machine code and then I'll fight for machine rights because who are we to tell them their language?

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[Dan541]

We need to abolish arrays.

Idea of placing one thing before another is offensive to retards.
All elements should get equal participation.

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[quantaman]

Does PC cultures have to infect everything?

Everyone knows that it won't stop there. A few years later there will be more "offensive" words that need to be changed. Personally, I won't stop being offended until we're all coding in machine code and then I'll fight for machine rights because who are we to tell them their language?

I personally don't see the need.

But I give more weight to the offence felt by the descendants of slaves (who still deal with racism and slavery apologists) than the offence felt by people asked to use a different set of technical terms.

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[hey!]

Well, every orthodoxy, left or right, has its own version of it; it always looks ridiculous when viewed from the outside. To me it seems kind of silly to get upset about a ball player kneeling during the national anthem, but I don't doubt that people are sincerely offended.

This particular form of PC comes out two things: (1) Niceness -- a desire not to hurt anyone's feeligns and (2) Optimism, of a sort peculiar to young people and engineers: if there's a problem we can just *fix* it.

Well some problems just can't be fixed. You can't eliminate friction from mechanical systems, and you can't eliminate social friction from human societies. The only way to keep people from offending each other would be to separate them so thoroughly that nobody ever encounters anyone who was in any way different from them in opinions and outlook. If you've ever been married you'll realize that pretty much means we'd all be on our own.

So either we learn to live with each other, which may make us miserable, or we learn to live apart, which will certainly make us miserable.

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[BronsCon]

But I give more weight to the offence felt by the descendants of slaves (who still deal with racism and slavery apologists) than the offence felt by people asked to use a different set of technical terms.

While I can see why this would be the case, you also need to give consideration to the implication of allowing the terms to change. Whatever takes their place will have the same meaning and will, in short order, become offensive to the same group, in a never-ending cycle. It's not that we're offended by the suggestion that we change the terminology (thus why someone else's offense might hold more weight than ours -- because we are not offended to begin with), but that we recognize that it is a futile and wasteful effort and choose not to entertain it.

Re:Oh for fuck's sake

[fafalone]

Oh please, there's 10,000 privileged white kids living on mommy and daddy's money who are doing the complaining for every legitimately offended black person. And no, they don't want the same consideration, they want superior consideration. They want to crucify every white person who uses even the slightest perceived offensive term while every anti-white term, stereotype, and other insult remains firmly on the table. Anyone who still thinks these PC SJWs stand for equality is deluded or lying, it's all about inverting the power structures, not leveling them.

I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

The terms are needlessly evocative. I propose we use "dom/sub" instead

"peculiar institution"?

[110010001000]

How is slavery America's "peculiar institution"? Slavery has existed for centuries in many countries. It still exists to this day, even though people continue to ignore it.

Re:"peculiar institution"?

[ErikTheRed]

If something terrible is happening but it's not trending on social media then nobody gives a shit. The overwhelming majority of people in the US only get outraged when their peer group tells them to. Whether such outrage is sensible, proportionate, or useful is never a consideration. Being seen to "care" is what's important.

Re:"peculiar institution"?

[Kohath]

How is slavery America's "peculiar institution"?

Playing victim in the US can get you paid.

Re:"peculiar institution"?

[thrich81]

I'm not a historian but ... The reference to slavery as America's "Peculiar Institution" is a term which goes back deep into the 19th century and isn't meant to imply that slavery is peculiar (as in "unique") to America but that slavery in the US was peculiar in the "different from other institutions" sense. It seems to have been coined by by the Southern pro-slavery politician John C Calhoun in 1837. A quick reference:
"PECULIAR INSTITUTION was a euphemistic term that white southerners used for slavery. John C. Calhoun defended the "peculiar labor" of the South in 1828 and the "peculiar domestick institution" in 1830. The term came into general use in the 1830s when the abolitionist followers of William Lloyd Garrison began to attack slavery. Its implicit message was that slavery in the U.S. South was different from the very harsh slave systems existing in other countries and that southern slavery had no impact on those living in northern states." -- from https://www.encyclopedia.com/h....
The term is seen fairly commonly in scholarly works, including this book from 1956, "The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South" by Kenneth M. Stampp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peculiar_Institution).

Top Five Alternate Master/Slave Terms

[SuperKendall]

5) Windshield/Bug

4) Ampulex compressa / Periplaneta americana

3) Eastwood / Punk

2) Wall / Mime

1) PC / Wrongthink

We been down this road...

[The Original CDR]

The Los Angeles County tried to ban Master/Slave for IDE cables in 2003

One such recent example included the manufacturer’s labeling of equipment where the words “Master/Slave” appeared to identify the primary and secondary sources. Based on the cultural diversity and sensitivity of Los Angeles County, this is not an acceptable identification label.

Re:We been down this road...

[Ambassador Kosh]

IDE cables are a great way to show the problem.

Many motherboards had primary and secondary slots and each slot had a master and a slave connector.

There are still a number of things like to DNS and other network services where primary and secondary are not the same as master and slave and a primary or secondary dns server can have slave servers.

I understand coming up with different terms but we also need to make sure the new terms are not more confusing than what we have already.

Re:We been down this road...

[dissy]

The Los Angeles County tried to ban Master/Slave for IDE cables in 2003

In the electronic manufacturing industry I work kinda-in (purely IT, but still) we had a similar push not long ago to ban Male/Female when referring to connectors and instead use Plug/Jack.
"Mating", the verb form, was changed to "Connect"

A bit later this was changed again as the previously-female term "Jack" was offensive being a predominantly male name, so it became Plug/Socket.

Even later as more complex connectors came into common use, it was noticed that things like the USB-A connectors had an outside shield component that made ground contact when plugged in, but at the same time the inserting component went *into* the cable where the 4 conductive plate traces were.
Basically the previously-male side has a shroud that completely envelops the entire previously-female side when connected.

The decades old term for these are "hermaphroditic shrouded connectors", which was also found offensive and changed to "surround connector"

There was also "hermaphroditic non-shrouded connectors" previously called "genderless" which can connect both cable-to-panel as well as cable-to-cable, which are now to be called "combination connectors"

The latest change we had to make was to retain the Plug/Socket terms but on the technical side no longer use "Plug" to replace "Male" and "Socket" to replace "Female"
Instead "Socket" is whichever end is fixed in place (IE on a circuit board or a panel) and "Plug" to refer to a movable connector (IE at the end of a cable)
So, the terms no longer indicate the obvious physical appearance of the connector, but how the connector is used.

This also means for the previously-genderless instances of a cable-to-cable connection, you are to say it is two *sockets* connecting, and you can't have two plugs that connect.

Confused yet?

Slavery is American!

[Glarimore]

given that the words remind some people of America's peculiar institution

I find it odd how 'slavery' is so often framed as an American phenomenon, when it was/is a worldwide institution. The US was simply the last superpower to abolish it locally. Slavery is unfortunately alive and well, which should be clear to anyone willing to take a look around.

As for the topic at hand: The folks arguing for this might have a point if the terms being used were 'whitey' and 'blackey' or something equivalently racist, but I find the terms 'master' and slave' to be sufficiently "anodyne" considering they refer to a relationship between two things and neither term explicitly refers to a particular type of individual. Are we going to get rid of 'parent' and 'child' as well because some people were beaten by their parents?

Re: So what's the alternative?

[orlanz]

I don't even think it is problematic. The real problem seems to be people who are taking terms outside their intended space. Why are we linking a scar on human history to terms explaining technical relationships?

I hope BDFL tells everyone to either shut up and get back to work or fork something on 4chan.

Re:So what's the alternative?

[stealth_finger]

I agree master-slave is problematic, but what are you going to use in place?

Dom-sub? Capitalist-proletariat? PHB-engineer?

Do they really want to open this can of worms?

Why is it problematic? Because it perfectly describes the relationship between the devices? Slavery has been going on since one caveman had a bigger stick than the next and doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon, it's a lot bigger than a ~250 year period in one country that ended ~150 years ago. With all due respect to the USA, you need to get over that shit.

Who can say?

[Jahoda]

I don't know. On the one hand we can say that this is the result of "feel good but do nothing" culture taken too far. On the other hand, slavery is pretty fricking gross.

I really just don't know, but I guess in the larger context of life it seems like a pretty dumb thing for me to care about. Being upset about changing the terminology, that is.

Re:"Politically correct," ...

[liquid_schwartz]

... also known as "being polite."

You can try and equate the two but it isn't true. One can be polite and still discuss master / slave on USB and other appropriate topics. One cannot be politically correct and do the same.

The Orwellians are mining for offense.

[ErikTheRed]

This trend of seeking offense where none is intended is incredibly toxic to humanity. In the English language many words have different meanings based on their context. It's plainly obvious that no allusion to human slavery is meant in the context of software or hardware module relationships.

Let's be blunt about what has happened: people have been abusively harmed by others lying to them and telling them that context is meaningless. They have been given invented forms of discomfort in order to make them slaves to unpleasant emotional responses that have no underlying basis in reality. That's the irony here. The people complaining about the terminology are behaving in a herd manner, controlled by powermongers who benefit from it. Power flows from irrational group cohesion, and the cheapest and easiest form irrational group cohesion is hatred of the other. There are many ways to define the "other" and you can see it everywhere in politics: race, nationality, language, religion, gender, sexual orientation, and (seriously, humanity actually went here) word choice. Both conservatives and progressives exploit these shamelessly. Stop playing their games.

Re:So what's the alternative?

[Kjella]

I agree master-slave is problematic, but what are you going to use in place?

I think replacing master is stupid because you have things like "master data", "master recording" etc. where master is simply the authoritative source and that's the role of the master server too. It's slave that's anthropomorphic, derogatory and also kinda a term of art, I mean you could set up master-slave replication but you'd never say you enslaved a server. Master-servant would be a nudge better but still anthropomorphic. If we're changing the term I'd suggest master-puppet, it's pretty much exactly that - something pulling the strings on an inanimate object. It sounds kinda odd particularly since puppet master is already is a term but the newspeak would at least be logical.

much ado about nothing

[vux984]

I'm firmly in the camp that thinks this is much ado about nothing.

But in the spirit of it being much ado about nothing, it seems absurd for me to get worked up about it. So if let them try to change it if it makes them feel better... if it gets traction and sticks... fine, whatever.

Just a thought here.

[hey!]

The thing that makes slavery wrong is that it treats people as if they were things without free will or feelings or purpose other than to serve us. Software modules actually are things without free will, feelings, or purpose other than to serve us.

It's offensive to call an adult black man "boy". It doesn't mean "boy" is an inherently offensive word or concept.

If you take a consequentialist view of ethics, the consequences of banning the word "slave" is that we no longer have a word to describe that concept. It does nothing for people actually are or were enslaved. How would you write a biography of Frederick Douglass? If you have a deontological view of ethics, there is no equivalence between describing an act and participating in the act; you can't end rape by not allowing people to use the word "rape".

People overall have a magical.view of words, which is why everyone is keen to police everyone else's language. That's how we ended up calling the place we poop the "rest room", which is kind of bizarre when you think of it.

Re:"Politically correct," ...

[kenai_alpenglow]

Because the goal posts keep moving. Look at the chain of words considered polite to use for someone who has trouble walking for an example. The words used for someone who has more melanin in their skin than other folks for another. Why not put the onus on the LISTENER instead of the SPEAKER for a change? Just because a snowflake gets offended doesn't mean the person speaking intended to be offensive.

Re:"Politically correct," ...

[Nocturna81]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

It's kinda obvious that some people are uncomfortable with the terminology.

How difficult is it for pliable minds to simply adopt another set of words to describe, precisely, the same thing?

What motivation exceeds being polite?

Being correct? Because screw being polite if it means it muddies the waters. Also, why do "we" need to be pliable? Why can't the other side of this argument get over themselves and accept that words can have different meaning depending on context?

Fucking idiotic.

[jcr]

"Master" and "slave" perfectly convey the concept. Pandering to SJW language police is not only a waste of time, it encourages them to waste our time on this kind of trivia.

-jcr

use words with denoted meaning, not metaphors

[SlithyMagister]

Master and Slave are metaphors for the controller and the controlled.

So use those, or synonyms of them.

Done

Down with man!

[mi]

While we are at this, when will the sexist man command be renamed?..

I'd say, let's name it doc, but that's not very egalitarian either, as it implies a level of education unattainable to so many of the less fortunate. Plus, to some it also invokes the horribly racist imagery of Looney Tunes.

If you've read this far and aren't outraged, you are a racist too — buy some racism credits to atone for the incorrect thoughts.

Re: Nice false equivalence

[BronsCon]

There may be a point you're missing, so let me spell it out for you: Black people who are alive today are not the same people who experienced Black slavery in America. When they claim they're the same people, they're guilty the same fallacy you're pointing out in my comment. If I'm wrong, so are they, and it needs to be left in the past where it belongs. Yes, I was inaccurate. On purpose. For a reason.

Keep it in history books, discuss it, make sure people understand why it was wrong so it doens't happen again, then move on. Anything else just perpetuates racism.

Re: Bus slaves

[Anne Thwacks]

In most of the world, regardless of civilised or not, slavery is not connected with race, and in some countries is still going on.

The relationship between subsystems on a bus is most definitely NOT parent-child - which may be appropriate for (example) software tasks.

When the bus master tells you to jump, it tells you when and how high. I do not want my peripheral subsystems being incited to rise up against their masters just because Americans have linguistic problems.

This is not a case for re-education: some people need to be sent to an educational system in the first place.

"Makers"

[slipped_bit]

I have no problem with master and slave used to define relationships of subsystems, but here are a few terms that should be reverted:

"makers" -- They're hobbyists.
"life hack" -- a useful tip
"shield" -- Why the heck did this term come to replace the phrase "daughter board"?
"ends" -- Connectors. Seriously, I bought some cable from a guy once and he asked if I wanted the "ends." The what? "The ends. The ends for the cable." At the time I had worked with electronics for 25+ years and had never heard that term used to describe a connector.

But at least now when I hear that a "maker" has a "life hack" on how to attach the "ends" to his "shield" I know what the hell he or she is talking about. Now I just need to figure out if that shield is the parent or child.

Considering we still do slavery

[fyngyrz]

Considering we still do slavery, seems premature to me:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

The US has 1.5 million people in prison as of 2018...

...many of whom are there for "crimes" of a personal or consensual nature, and many of whom are used as barely- or un-paid labor, while at the same time being sucked dry financially for simple things like phone calls.

...yeah, I think "master" and "slave" can definitely remain around in their original context for quite some time.

Re:Considering we still do slavery

[fyngyrz]

What you don't get is that burying the terminology contributes to burying the problem. If we didn't have the problem, it would be no big deal to take it or leave it, honestly; I have zero sensitivity to events 150 years ago. But we do still have the problem. So these issues need to be kept on the table. It's good that the PC butterflies are making a stink about this. Let them scream; the noise is useful. But don't capitulate. Slavery isn't dead. It should be, but it isn't.

Re: Considering we still do slavery

[fyngyrz]

You should be just as angry and outraged that the word Slave is in the dictionary. It's just as relevant.

You're very confused. I'm not in the least offended or angry by use of master / slave in the engineering context, or by these words remaining in our vocabulary in general. Quite the opposite.

I am offended by our filthy excuse of a legal system, though.

Re:Considering we still do slavery

[Darinbob]

But these are the accurate terms here. Just because human slavery is evil shouldn't have any bearing on whether you have a master cylinder versus a slave cylinder. It doesn't promote or denigrate slavery, it is completely neutral.

Is the concern that saying "slave" is a trigger word?

Anyway, I remember old textbooks where you had father and son nodes, and that changed almost universally to be parent/child way back before political correctness arose.

Re: Considering we still do slavery

[pollarda]

Since everyone is offended nowadays, I'm offended by their statement that it is a peculiar institution in the USA. Someone needs to go back and read their history. The Romans practiced slavery. The Greeks practiced slavery. The Africans did too even before they sold their slaves to the Europeans. The European institution of serfdom wasn't too far off. The Hitites practiced slavery, the Babylonians too. The Jews were slaves in Egypt. Pretty much all of history had slaves. To single it out as a singularly American institution is a bit nieve.

Re: Considering we still do slavery

[Opportunist]

You have to be found guilty of an actual crime.

Unfortunately that's not even true. What's required is you being accused of a crime and having a lazy court mandated lawyer who doesn't give a shit how the case ends and whose only motivation is to get out of it as fast as he possibly can, telling you straight up that you'll accept a crappy "deal" you're offered or he'll do his best that you regret it if you actually dare to go to court and waste his time.

You are, by the way, a minimum wage worker with zero money and no legal training. Good luck.

dump Python, use Perl!

[KiloByte]

Yeah, it is time to boycott a language where political correctness trumps technical merit -- especially if the same language enforces whitespace bondage&discipline. So drop Python, we welcome you on the Perl side!

Re:Exactly!

[Antique Geekmeister]

non-binary-non-racial-gender-queer-safe-space-resident and college president.