Amazon Plants Fake Packages In Delivery Trucks As Part of Undercover Ploy To 'Trap' Drivers Stealing (businessinsider.com)

An anonymous reader quotes a report from Business Insider: Amazon uses fake packages to catch delivery drivers who are stealing, according to sources with knowledge of the practice. The company plants the packages -- internally referred to as "dummy" packages -- in the trucks of drivers at random. The dummy packages have fake labels and are often empty.

Here's how the practice works, according to the sources: During deliveries, drivers scan the labels of every package they deliver. When they scan a fake label on a dummy package, an error message will pop up. When this happens, drivers might call their supervisors to address the problem, or keep the package in their truck and return it to an Amazon warehouse at the end of their shift. Drivers, in theory, could also choose to steal the package. The error message means the package isn't detected in Amazon's system. As a result, it could go unnoticed if the package were to go missing. "If you bring the package back, you are innocent. If you don't, you're a thug," said Sid Shah, a former manager for DeliverOL, a courier company that delivers packages for Amazon.

Comments

now that everyone knows

[renegade600]

well, since the cat is out of the bag, only idiots will be caught.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

I caught myself stealing from myself. I will report myself to myself for disciplinary action.

Re: now that everyone knows

[AntronArgaiv]

But, as soon as the driver scans the package, it *is* in the system, simply by having been scanned.

Now, the driver knows the system knows he has the package, so he has to account for it.

This clever trick must only catch the very clueless thieves.

How do they distinguish the "dummy" packages from real ones with the wrong item in them, or the ones that are "lost". Those always seem to be mine.

Re:now that everyone knows

[farble1670]

well, since the cat is out of the bag, only idiots will be caught.

Not the point. Amazon doesn't care if you don't steal because you are honest or if you don't steal because you know you will get caught. They only care if you deliver your packages. It's much simpler to prevent crime than to punish it.

Re: now that everyone knows

[commodore64_love]

I've heard of people not RTFA but not reading the summary is a new one. It clearly states the scanner produces an error (because the package is Not in the system... it's a fake package).

Another reason the scanner produces an error is because Amazon doesn't want drivers to leave a bunch of empty boxes laying around..... they want the box to come back (hence the error generation).

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

If its done right the scanning device should still keep a record of everything it has scanned.

Re:now that everyone knows

[cornjones]

well, since the cat is out of the bag, only idiots will be caught.

I would suggest that is the reason this is a story, so everyone knows. It is probably most valuable as a tale told at the depot, 'you know they have dummy packages that are out to get you if you mess up'. It keeps people in line thinking that the man is watching for a mistake (when it was really probably a coding error somewhere)

Re:now that everyone knows

[ShanghaiBill]

But this is only one way to steal. There are many other ways, such as taking a package to the porch, scanning it, so the GPS-enabled scanner marks it as "delivered", and then taking the package back to the truck. Then, just before returning to the distribution center, stash the sack of stolen boxes in the bushes to pick up later.

The point of the "fake package" ploy is to identify those likely to steal. By publicizing it, they make it less effective at catching dishonest drivers.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

I caught myself stealing from myself. I will report myself to myself for disciplinary action.

I hear you will only accept the punishment from leather-clad ugly women that want to smack you a$$ until it bleeds RED

KINKY

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a good thing this method doesn't prevent them from using other methods as well.

Re:now that everyone knows

[taustin]

If they're clever enough to plant fake packages, and clever enough to "accidentally" let it slip they're doing so as a deterrent, they're likely clever enough to put a hidden camera in the truck, which will record the driver bringing the package they claim to have just delivered back to the truck.

Re:now that everyone knows

[taustin]

I would suggest that they don't actually have to have every actually planted any fake packages, because 99.999% of the benefit of the whole idea is in the story that they do.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't judge your fetishes, dude.

Re:now that everyone knows

[farble1670]

Great. So your point is just to give up, because really there's no way to stop all theft?

Re:now that everyone knows

[reboot246]

I had one item stolen from a package back in January. The postal worker simply cut the Amazon tape on the bottom of the box, took one of the two items, and then sealed the box with clear packing tape. They delivered the package the next day as if nothing had happened.

I complained to the post office, but I never found out what happened to the employee. My guess is nothing happened. Amazon was great about refunding my money. I wonder how many times that has happened and how much money Amazon loses every year.

Re:now that everyone knows

[sphealey]

Violation of federal labor law. This isn't Uber we are talking about here, so probably not.

Re:now that everyone knows

[four20_BlzItFgt]

Not tru! I hav buddies from Walmart n Target & the trucking companies. What we do is we hav fake robberies, take entire inventory n resell on craigslist. U can do the same for Amazon packages. It's all about being smart, n not being a retard. The police ask questions n shit, you say idk bro. It helps if u got friends in the department too, but my city too big fro that. There lots of ways to make money on side

Re:now that everyone knows

[dwpro]

I wonder if Amazon's scheme might be more elaborate than is mentioned here. I had a package delivered recently, but soon thereafter amazon sent an email apologizing that the package had been lost and to contact them for more information. After the second email I let them know that the package had been delivered as expected, and they simply said, "OK thanks for letting us know". I wondered if I was part of a scam by delivery drivers but perhaps this was an internal setup as well.

Re: now that everyone knows

[AntronArgaiv]

Just because the scanner "produces an error" does not mean that it does not also record the number of the scanned package, and who scanned it.

Betcha that package number goes into "the system" as soon as it's scanned, thereby providing evidence that the driver had it in his hands at a particular time.

Re:now that everyone knows

[rtb61]

Actually in the case of delivery drivers, cameras mounted all around and inside the cargo area for security reasons, quite reasonable, just not the drivers compartment. Really the cheapest thing to do, data storage is pretty cheap, recording it pretty cheap, and problem solved. Keep the videos records for thirty days post delivery to resolve any delivery disputes, overall a pretty sound solution, video record all deliveries, done and finished.

Re: now that everyone knows

[AntronArgaiv]

I ordered a wireless mouse, received a ball of twine.
Amazon was good about replacing it, but insisted I return the ball of twine and threatened to charge me for the mouse they didn't ship if I failed to do so.
No, this does not make any sense.

The second mouse arrived, and they acknowledged receipt of the ball of twine and credited me for the missing mouse.

Re:now that everyone knows

[ShanghaiBill]

Violation of federal labor law.

No, it is not a violation of federal labor law.
It may be a violation of state law, depending on your state: Connecticut and Delaware ban hidden cameras.
Video surveillance of employees is generally legal.
Audio surveillance is generally illegal without notification.
Video surveillance is illegal if there is an expectation of privacy, such as in a restroom.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

English?

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

*whoosh*

The point is that drivers who have been warned, and have zero excuses for losing packages.

For the most part, at least this says amazon isnâ(TM)t allowing shrinkage to go unaddressed. That said, it is very likely that the majority of shrinkage is from insiders. Eg boxes disappearing before they arrive at the warehouse and by inventory control.

Re:now that everyone knows

[russotto]

They're not actually doing this, just planting stories at Business Insider to keep drivers from stealing packages.

Re:now that everyone knows

[quenda]

Amazon doesn't care if you don't steal because you are honest or if you don't steal because you know you will get caught.

Sounds just like God.

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon contracts out deliveries to many local companies; these aren't necessarily Amazon trucks that they can install surveillance equipment into.

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd think it's more likely the driver forgot to scan the package as delivered, then at the end of the shift the package was still on the truck's inventory but was nowhere to be found

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of an idiot posts this gibberish under a named account?

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

This suggestion checks out in a world where rich people dont steal, and yet...

Re: now that everyone knows

[Dare nMc]

> package number goes into "the system" as soon as it's scanned

Are the scanners error proof? If they occasionally mis read and get a invalid number, then this action doesn't make sense.

Re:now that everyone knows

[mysidia]

Now they just need to introduce fake packages that scan OK without an error and are intended to be delivered to "Decoy houses" , offices, and mailboxes that exist solely to receive and confirm that fake packages were properly delivered.

Re: now that everyone knows

[mysidia]

They can put it in the contract or Bid-Out process
that specified surveillance cameras with capabilities provided by Amazon specifications must be installed and operational at all times in the manner specified by Amazon's Asset Protection monitoring team while any Amazon package is in the vehicle or the vehicle is working for Amazon covering the driver's cabin, back of the truck, and cover all areas of the vehicle where packages may be handled.

Re: now that everyone knows

[mlyle]

The barcodes for logistics systems-- and especially for 2D barcodes-- have a lot of redundancy and error-checking. The error rate is somewhere between "almost never" for the worst logistics barcode systems (maybe 1 a year) to "really never" (less than 1 at present rates of scanning for the lifetime of the universe).

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is done correctly, the scanning device is only input hardware connected to Amazon's backend systems. Any slashdot type person can imagine what happens over there.

Re: now that everyone knows

[lister king of smeg]

This suggestion checks out in a world where rich people dont steal, and yet...

But do they steal at a lower rate than the poor? If the rate of theft is lower, and savings from shrinkage and reshipping costs is still higher than wages then is it economical viable to do so?

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Not a total fail though. They know there are "Traps" in the cargo they're given to test their honesty. This probably translates to far fewer driver thefts. I'm assuming the problem was pretty bad if they had to go this far to catch'em.

Re:now that everyone knows

[sphealey]

For cameras openly mounted in the vehicle, sure. The parent post specified hidden camera unknown to the employee though which is a different legal and ethical situation.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you have to SIGN for a package in the U.S.? Why do delivery drivers leave packages on people's porches? They don't do that (as standard) in the U.K.

Re:now that everyone knows

[tehcyder]

Isn't the point that Amazon will make the casual/opportunitst sort of thief think twice, on the basis that if Amazon admit to this they probably/possibly have more sneaky methods to catch cheats?

You're never going to stop serious thieves entirely in any case, but minimising losses is just something that businesses have to do.

Re:now that everyone knows

[crypticedge]

I had the same thought. It's great that they're doing something to prevent it, but now the whole prevention method is broken.

Re:now that everyone knows

[f3rret]

What kind of an idiot posts this gibberish under a named account?

Yeah, that account totally isn't a throwaway or anything.

Re: now that everyone knows

[tehcyder]

This suggestion checks out in a world where rich people dont steal, and yet...

But do they steal at a lower rate than the poor? If the rate of theft is lower, and savings from shrinkage and reshipping costs is still higher than wages then is it economical viable to do so?

The richer you are, the more the risks of getting caught outweigh the potential gain

If you are homeless and starving, you're not going to care if you get caught and put in a cell overnight and given a bowl of soup, a bread roll and a stern talking to.

But if you're a lawyer or doctor and you find a wallet with a couple of hundred cash in it in the street, the (very small) risk of getting caught if you pocket it is massively multiplied by the negative impact if you are caught, get a trivial fine, but lose your career, house, etc.

If you're even moderately well off, the reward part of the reward/risk calculation has to be pretty big to make crime worthwhile.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Plumpaquatsch]

The point of the "fake package" ploy is to identify those likely to steal. By publicizing it, they make it less effective at catching dishonest drivers.

By publicizing it, they get the deterrent even if they don't actually plant the fake packages.

Re:now that everyone knows

[coofercat]

I also wonder why Amazon doesn't deliver the fake packages to someone's house? I mean, if I lived in an area reporting 'lost' parcels, then Amazon could just ask me if I wouldn't mind accepting a free gift or something (some sort of gift that requires I register it when I open the box). That way they'd have actual end-to-end testing.

Besides, I though Amazon just swapped out delivery companies/people if their stats weren't good enough? I'd have thought a few lost parcels would qualify, wouldn't it?

Re:now that everyone knows

[cmdr_klarg]

Amazon doesn't care if you don't steal because you are honest or if you don't steal because you know you will get caught.

Sounds just like God.

If the only thing keeping one from being a criminal is the threat of eternal torture I will question their morality.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

..., such as taking a package to the porch, scanning it, so the GPS-enabled scanner marks it as "delivered", and then taking the package back to the truck.

Do this once, and you get away with it. Or maybe someone followed the Amazon truck and stole a package right after delivery.

Do this regularly - which is the point of thievery - and you'll be the guy who has a 2% stolen package rate that nobody else have - even though you have perfect paperwork for all the cases.

This is not harder to catch than those stealing directly from the truck. It cost a bit more to have a supervisor follow the suspect's truck and film them doing this - but Amazon gets all that back when suing for damages. The driver never works again. Stealing on the job is worse than having been to prison for spare-time activities. The latter criminal might still be useful at work, the former is known to botch the job.

Re:now that everyone knows

[nedlohs]

Right, so rather than actually wasting the effort to set up such a system and get those packages on trucks they just have to have "sources" tell the media they do that for probably a larger reduction in theft.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Thieves are not the smartest ones around - or they'll have academic careers instead.

Every year, they catch criminals because they bragged about their crime on facebook. "Nice catch, he had $4000 in his wallet". "Watch me do 120mph in a school zone" , "Stole the gun from a cop, haha!"

The idiots thinks bragging to their friends on facebook works like bragging in a bar. Well, sure, their friends get impressed - but . . .

Re:now that everyone knows

[bluefoxlucid]

That happens with Modafinil all the time.

Modafinil is a Schedule-IV controlled substance with no physical dependence or other addictive nature, no long-term health effects from long-term use (study used 3 years, 56 hours awake, 8 hours asleep, then immediate discontinuation and return to regular sleeping cycle), and no abuse by overuse potential (taking extra makes you feel like shit). It also has been shown not a medical emergency if someone takes 50 pills at once (this has happened a LOT: a teenager tried to commit suicide once, and they used some 156 test subjects at extremely-high doses to determine safety).

Modafinil makes it ridiculously easy to focus. A lot of people interpret that as "making you smarter", so it's sought after as a cognitive enhancement drug. It's not approved for ADHD, despite multiple studies showing it's highly-effective for ADHD; we use amphetamine as the front-line treatment, which is far more effective than Methylphenidate, but has a much higher rate of abuse (and the abuse rates taper off around 8th-10th grade for MPH, but continue to increase into college for AMP). Modafinil has a lower incidence of side-effects (notably insomnia, at 4%). I'd quite like to see Modafinil become the front-line treatment for ADHD due to its safety and efficacy, but oh well.

So... a lot of people use it as a so-called cognitive enhancement drug.

A lot of people order Modafinil illegally from India and stuff. It comes across the border fine--customs does not care.

Customs cares so little that they will often cut open a shipment, remove half of the pills, and tape it back up.

That is: the customs agent is stealing half your drugs.

This is the dumbest shit. If they're just going to let people buy it, make it OTC. If you're going to make it illegal, enforce it. I don't particularly have a problem with CE, and am concerned about the toxic shit being pushed on the grey market to these people, so I'd actually back making CE an approved medical reason for prescription and putting it on-label for Modafinil and certain other compounds (there's one that's even more tolerated in humans, doesn't have a stimulant effect, but causes your memory to suddenly work really well--yes, actual learning drugs).

People wonder why I push back when they talk about paper ballots "being kept in a secure location" and "transported with a representative from each major party". Why would you trust the State Board of Elections? Customs is stealing people's drugs and putting half the shipment back in the package to go on through. They're not halting it at the border; they're taking their cut. Why wouldn't State agents tamper with elections?

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Video surveillance is illegal if there is an expectation of privacy, such as in a restroom.

Bingo. It's Amazon we're talking about. Delivery employees are expected to pee in a bottle while driving. Hence, no cameras.

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you lose focus there?

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah. This is pretty common practice in the delivery industry. We had bait packages at FedEx, too, and people still tried to steal them

Re:now that everyone knows

[petermgreen]

Why do delivery drivers leave packages on people's porches?

Because it's cheaper.

If you require a person to person contact (which is basically what signed-for packages seem to imply, there doesn't seem to be any requirement for the person signing to be the recipiant) to hand off the package then your delivery provider may need to make multiple delivery attempts. If you are prepared to have your package left without a person to person contact then the delivery provider only has to make one attempt. That translates into signature required services being more expensive than non signature required services.

The flip side of that of course is that packages left without making contact, especially ones left outside have a much higher chance of loss or damage.

So ultimately it comes down to money, does it cost the merchant more to pay for "signature required" delivery service or to replace the packages that go missing due to use of non signature-requried services?

One difference between the US and the UK is that in the UK we have letterboxes in our doors that are owned by the householder and can be used by any delivery service. The americans have mailboxes at the end of their garden which are owned by and can only be used by the postal service. I suspect this results in a greater proportion of packages being left outdoors.

They don't do that (as standard) in the U.K.

Many suppliers in the UK do send packages with no signature required.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is, there's a better way of stealing packages, though it's better if you're one of the loaders/unloaders. You put new shipping labels on the packages. Typically all the weight, etc. has already been determined long before the package hits the trucks so they never check this. Even if you have to pay for a "legit" label, you more than likely get your investment back from what you receive. You clearly have to have a drop site for this so you're not so easily caught as having them delivered to your house. I learned about this over 30 years ago when I worked for a shipping company. I never used it but I knew several who did. Back then boomboxes with cd players were several hundred dollars, and they came through with the retail packaging for some reason so they turned up missing a LOT from what I gathered.

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

True, though more and more people have doorbell cameras to keep an eye out for package theves.

Re: now that everyone knows

[edtice1559]

Sure it does. Whatever the reason, if you scan a package and the reader says you can't deliver it, you need to bring it back. You don't get to take it home with you! Maybe it wasn't a dummy package. Maybe it was a real one that scanned wrong. You still don't steal it.

Re: now that everyone knows

[EdwardFurlong]

If it's done right... it's not done right where I work, a record is only created when an item is transferred from one zone to another, I imagine Amazon has a more sophisticated system though.

Re:now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

It's much simpler to prevent crime than to punish it.

Then make sure you vote Democrat.

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck the fucking fuckers.

Re: now that everyone knows

[dpidcoe]

Why would you log mis-scanned labels as packages? If the driver scans a barcode and it returns an error like "this is a valid label but we have no record of it so return it to the warehouse", then sure. But there are plenty of other failure modes as well: scanning an invalid label (e.g. one that's being used by some other entity), scanning a label that was misprinted into some invalid data (it's readable, matches the expected format, but it's some kind of error or test pattern like 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF), or scanning a damaged label that's just not readable. If you log all of those as packages, I could see a bored, curious, or malicious driver accidentally wrecking havoc on your system by trying to see if his scanner works on some random barcodes he comes across.

Re: now that everyone knows

[dpidcoe]

That assumes that people always act 100% rationally. They don't.

I'd hypothesize that the only reason people who don't steal are underrepresented in higher economic classes and overrepresented in lower economic classes is because that tendency to steal, if discovered, will generally limit ones potential for upwards economic growth in the sort of way that actually generates real wealth.

Re:now that everyone knows

[dpidcoe]

One difference between the US and the UK is that in the UK we have letterboxes in our doors that are owned by the householder and can be used by any delivery service. The americans have mailboxes at the end of their garden which are owned by and can only be used by the postal service. I suspect this results in a greater proportion of packages being left outdoors.

As an american, I've had deliveries from non-UPS entities left in my mailbox. It's mostly just that there's not a lot of stuff I order online that ships in a package small enough to fit in the mailbox.

Re:now that everyone knows

[rpstrong]

As an american, I've had deliveries from non-UPS entities left in my mailbox.

...which is generally a violation of US Code Title 18, section 1725.

However, mail slots in your door are excluded from that restriction.

Re: now that everyone knows

[torkus]

Ok, so when you finish reading the whitepaper and go scan 100's if not 1000's of things a day let me know if you NEVER get a mis-scan.

In reality, there are many ways that you can have issues - ranging from a misprinted label to dirt and many other things. People are GREAT at breaking things. I mean, if an airline can permanently lose a 50 pound bag full of dirty clothes on a regular basis then I think a barcode scanner can miss now and then.

Besides, what are you going to do for every mis-scan? Log it? Ok...and then what? You ask the driver about that package mis-scan after he's scanned 100's of boxes, delieverd them, scanned them again and gone back to depot. The answer? "Uh...i dunno. Was there?" It's a solution looking for a problem ...

Re: now that everyone knows

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the following typically result in lower sentences for the same theft:
- Has a job
- Has a family
- Sound social prognosis
- Well-off

If you ask me, all of the above are reasons not to steal or commit other crimes.

Re:now that everyone knows

[_Sharp'r_]

If it's being shipped from India, I doubt it's U.S. customs stealing anything.

India, on the other hand, has a well known reputation for either delaying or "losing" a lot from valuable packages unless the proper bribe is paid to the right person.

Re:now that everyone knows

[nasch]

What about the "representatives from both (all) parties" thing? Why would the rep from Party A stand by while the election officials rig the election in favor of Party B?

Re:now that everyone knows

[bluefoxlucid]

Well the Democratic party backed someone this year for County Executive who endorsed the Republican governor (also, he lost). They don't like progressive candidates and want centrists; we've been beating their candidates.

Our Democratic Comptroller is endorsing our Republican governor over the Bernie-Sanders-Endorsed Democratic nominee.

Look, I want the Senate, you want a Delegate seat, both are pretty close. We can trade a little. Besides, some of us have a lot of money and some of you don't.

Re:now that everyone knows

[bluefoxlucid]

US Customs uses their own tape to mark things they've opened.

Re:now that everyone knows

[j-beda]

Amazon doesn't care if you don't steal because you are honest or if you don't steal because you know you will get caught.

Sounds just like God.

If the only thing keeping one from being a criminal is the threat of eternal torture I will question their morality.

Me too, but I'm still glad that they aren't "being a criminal".

Amazon's own delivery service

[grasshoppa]

I'm glad they're doing something, because their delivery service is horrible right now. Missing packages, packages that take a week to have a status report, drivers who couldn't find their ass with both hands, nevermind a condo. Amazon instantly went from my #1 stop for shopping online to last because the only delivery option in the area seems to be their shipper. It's so bad that if I can't find it anywhere else ( including venturing outside, which tells you how desperate I've become ), I seriously wonder if I need it over ordering it from amazon.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[Martin Blank]

I don't have a problem with timing (maybe due to Prime), but I do have a problem with drivers literally throwing packages several feet. It hasn't happened on the last two deliveries, but my home office is right by the front door and I could hear packages hitting and tumbling, and they'd be scattered across the porch. Looking outside, the driver would be almost back to his truck. I once went to get some kind of ID so I could report it, but the driver completely ignored me. I got the plate number and reported it to the company and to Amazon. Didn't get a follow-up from either one, though.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[TheMeuge]

Well... They are paid so little that they need food stamps, are scheduled for 1-2 hours less that full time to avoid paying for their health insurance, and are scheduled to deliver enough packages to take up all their time if they never eat or pee. What do you expect?

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[fahrbot-bot]

Well... They are paid so little that they need food stamps, are scheduled for 1-2 hours less that full time to avoid paying for their health insurance ...

The same can be said for most Walmart employees ...

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[farble1670]

Well... They are paid so little that they need food stamps, are scheduled for 1-2 hours less that full time to avoid paying for their health insurance, and are scheduled to deliver enough packages to take up all their time if they never eat or pee. What do you expect?

Lesson: if you are unhappy with your employment, you should damage others' property. Because it will help you.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[commodore64_love]

Why does it matter? If the item is damaged, you're not obligated to pay for it. U.S. Law is written to protect the customer from getting screwed by mail-order companies like amazon (or their delivery agents)

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Archangel Michael]

scheduled for 1-2 hours less that full time to avoid paying for their health insurance

Which is exactly what we predicted when congress passed ObamaCare, requiring full time employees be covered. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time, simply because idiots can't figure out how their stupid ideas would be handled by businesses.

And don't go on a rant about how amoral businesses are, unless you're equally ranting about how immoral socialist policies are that cause these problems in the first place. Using government guns to threaten the populace to comply with the desire to take from people for no reason other than "fairness" (subjective) is immoral.

Amoral is still better than immoral, all day long.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[ShanghaiBill]

Why does it matter? If the item is damaged, you're not obligated to pay for it.

I order stuff because I need it. If I order a router that arrives broken, sure I can get it replaced, but I am still without a router for a week.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[taustin]

scheduled for 1-2 hours less that full time to avoid paying for their health insurance

Which is exactly what we predicted when congress passed ObamaCare, requiring full time employees be covered. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time, simply because idiots can't figure out how their stupid ideas would be handled by businesses.

Where on earth did you get the idea that the current situation isn't exactly what was intended:

Liberal moron masses believing Congress had done something for them, like conservative business owners got to cut costs while pretending they're the victims.

And Democrats in Congress getting lots of donations for reelection from said liberal moron masses to try to "fix the problem" (which, if it ever got fixed, nobody would donate to their reelection funds again, so they will never try to actually fix it), and Republicans in Congress getting lots of donations from their business owning masters to keep things just the way they are.

Win/win for everybody that matters.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[haruchai]

"Which is exactly what we predicted when congress passed ObamaCare, requiring full time employees be covered. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time"

If by "we", you mean the people who said implement Medicare-for-all instead of that convoluted gladhanding to the insurance industry, then yes, this is exactly what "we" predicted.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[IcyWolfy]

Outside the USA, back in the day (90s):
We had full Benefits started at 30hrs;
Proportional benefits for anythnig below that.
work 15hrs a week, company has to accrue vacation at 50% legal mandate, cover 50% of insurance coverage (these PT employees must be allowed to be on the same plans), pay for 50% of other benefits offered to FT employees.

The rules changed since, with the introduction of new benefits, fully nationalized health care, etc.
The USA would be best to put in such a system. Benefits start at 30hrs? You work 28hrs? Company must cover 93% of FT benefits.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[TheMeuge]

They simply don't have the time to glad hand your packages. If they place them instead of throw them they won't meet their delivery schedule. Also, they are probably too tired and unhappy to care.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

I've given them film from my front door camera showing them doing that but also intentionally missing the porch so it stays on the steps in the rain. Amazon doesn't care.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

They have to do this or they'll run out of time before their shift ends. They still need time to run back to the Amazon warehouse and drop off empty packages.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[93 Escort Wagon]

I'm glad they're doing something, because their delivery service is horrible right now.

No kidding. Every AMZN delivery is an adventure in frustration.

Just a few days ago I had a package which was supposedly delivered, but I didn’t receive it. The delivery picture was enlightening:

1) The text was “package left in a secure location”, although the photo showed the package in a bag hanging on a large driveway gate.
2) The pictured house behind the gate wasn’t my house - I don’t have a gate on my driveway.

Amazon did quickly refund the cost to me once I complained... but that’s kind of like saying “my car which breaks down all the time, but at least it has a very good warranty”.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

If your Healthcare is fully nationalized then why is anybody paying for benefits as a line item instead of it just coming out of your taxes?

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right they don't. They don't care about a lot, and I mean a LOT of complaints.

There are a variety of formula that can be used, to calculate the loss of income from a customer, the cost of reimbursing occasionally, compared to operational costs.

I suspect that if they come too hard down on drivers, then they won't be able to 'push' them as hard to complete the day. Put another way, throwing packages at doors, and not getting things quite right, is just fine -- as long as the drivers are rarely caught.

It's all about number of complaints + number of issues + lost cash versus whatever it would cost to do it perfectly.

If you've ever spoken to Amazon customer service, and done it over the years, they are very, very, very poorly trained now, compared to a decade ago. They really have no idea what's happening, what's going on, how anything works.

But that's a hell of a lot cheaper than training, you see. And if they lose a few customers, they save waaay more than if they kept those customers and trained people correctly.

It's all about profit, NOT you or I being happy.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect Amazon are afraid some "thug" might get angry about that.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Cmdln Daco]

Walmart employees, however, don't hover around in the parking lot and steal merchandise from my cart as I'm putting it in the car.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[swb]

Be grateful they're only unhappy enough with their employment to just toss packages. My guess is that the next iteration of unhappy employment involves burning those packages in a giant pile someplace, and the one after that involves rich people lined up against a wall.

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[swb]

The problem with this multi-layered, outsourced internet economy is that there's just about zero accountability for shitty service or products anymore.

I barely blame the delivery guys for not giving a shit considering how little they get paid and the crushing scheduling/travel burden imposed by Amazon.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Dare nMc]

>. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time"

Except it didn't happen. The number of part time employees has been slowly decreasing since ObamaCare passed.

https://tradingeconomics.com/u...

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[ngc5194]

Agreed, but treating your employees no worse that Walmart is not exactly a ring endorsement of social consciousness.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Joe_Dragon]

health insurance is 29 hours and the drivers are on the road 8+ hours a day.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[houghi]

In Belgium, the package is the responsability of the sender/delivery service, untill it is in the mailbox, or till I signed for it.

If I order with Amazon, I will have ro sign for it. If I am not home, I need to pick it up. Otherwise I could claim a non-delivery each time. The cost would be for the delivery company or postal service as they lost the package.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[houghi]

If that other is the company that abuses you, yes.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[hman]

"going postal" is about to become "going amazon" ?

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[serviscope_minor]

Which is exactly what we predicted when congress passed ObamaCare, requiring full time employees be covered. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time, simply because idiots can't figure out how their stupid ideas would be handled by businesses.

Well, that is what happens when you have to pander to the republicans to get something passed. Honestly, I think the republicans congress inhabitants knew their changes would do that. They just didn't care.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[tehcyder]

Walmart employees, however, don't hover around in the parking lot and steal merchandise from my cart as I'm putting it in the car.

Well don't you live in a fancy area then?

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[crypticedge]

There's more benefits than just insurance.

Vacation, pension/401k and bonuses all come to mind

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

Lesson: if you are unhappy with your employment, you should damage others' property. Because it will help you.

But of course. That is basic psychology.
Treat employees badly - such as giving a wage they can't survive on, or a schedule that don't allow piss stops - and they'll be disgruntled. They may eventually leave such a job, but they'll do shoddy work and cut big corners. Tossing packages to save time, not delivering all packages because they needed that piss stop and they are not going to work overtime for free. Not when they need a second job just to survive.

You get what you pay for, and underpaying employees is simply bad business. It may seem to work for a while, but losses eat up the gains. Complaints are visible, sending the same package out again the next day is also very visible and very much a loss. People shopping elsewhere the next time, not so visible. So bad management doesn't notice that one, and losses are bigger than they think.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[bluefoxlucid]

Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time, simply because idiots can't figure out how their stupid ideas would be handled by businesses.

It looks like U-6 and U-5 have been falling slightly faster than U-3, which is the opposite of what you said.

Yes, it bewilders me, too. I've suggested a partial subsidy to make up the difference (e.g. 50% of the employer's healthcare costs incurred for a non-full-time employee for the portion represented by the hours discounted from full-time). That would encourage full-time employment, but reduce the impact: maybe you have a 20-hour worker and the $6,800/year healthcare costs are now subsidized by $1,700, so the employee costs you an extra 85 cents an hour. If that's a 30-hour worker (32 legally receives full-time benefits IIRC), you get $850 of subsidy, and your cost increase per hour is 42.5 cents per hour.

Of course, that also cuts into your profits, thus reducing your corporate taxes (35%), so your ultimate end-of-year profit impact is 65% of that (55 and 28 cents per hour).

unless you're equally ranting about how immoral socialist policies are that cause these problems in the first place.

It's not socialist. Socialism involves social ownership: the Government would need to own the insurers, hospitals, or whatever. This is tax-and-spend government.

Government is a social contract: the governed empower the government to protect their rights and general welfare. Without government, people are infinitely free to go anywhere, take anything, and do anything. They can murder you, imprison you, take your property, and so forth. We give up those natural rights, placing them in trust of the Government, and so cannot murder, imprison, and steal; in exchange, the Government provides for the general welfare and protects our rights to life, liberty, and property.

As such, I have suggested Government must actively seek to provide the services which best provide for the general welfare while also reducing the cost of those services. Technical progress reduces the cost to produce the same thing, and the Government provides things to a population: the cost per person to provide a service should go down, or the amount of service (e.g. healthcare) should go up. If the Government is taking 10% of the population's income (property) and providing service only worth 5%, it is unjustly taking 5% of the population's property.

That doesn't mean we don't provide services; it means we need to stop seeing taxpayers (and certain classes of taxpayers) as endless sources of money and start considering our moral obligation to take their property only in good faith and with the greatest care to minimize the tax necessary to provide the services our society determines necessary and desirable.

This entire philosophy doesn't mesh with socialism because you don't have property in socialism: we all own it, so your property is our property. We can't unjustly deprive you of what is ours in the first place. The ideal that Government must provide a fair exchange--that taxes are necessary and may be high, but must not be higher than necessary to provide service--necessarily requires an individual right to property and an obligation for the Government to protect that right.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[edtice1559]

No but Walmart does have shrinking, like everybody else. Around 1%.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect them to not throw my property several feet through the air onto concrete! The rest is between them and their employer, and is no excuse to damage people's packages.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[farble1670]

But of course. That is basic psychology.

Speak for yourself. It's not my psychology. I don't try to harm others when I'm unhappy.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[farble1670]

If that other is the company that abuses you, yes.

Some pretty good advice that can be applied to all manner of situations: if you are in an abusive relationship then leave. If you choose to stay, that's on you.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[farble1670]

and the one after that involves rich people lined up against a wall

rich = able to afford a package delivery by Amazon?

But anyway, do you think scaring people with murder is going to raise the minimum wage? I mean really, if you are working on mass murdering the elite class in the USA, best be quiet about it until you can make your move.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is exactly what we predicted when congress passed ObamaCare, requiring full time employees be covered. Well, now we have a bunch of professions that no longer work full time, simply because idiots can't figure out how their stupid ideas would be handled by businesses.

Well, that is what happens when you have to pander to the republicans to get something passed. Honestly, I think the republicans congress inhabitants knew their changes would do that. They just didn't care.

WTH are you talking about? ObamaCare passed with no Republican votes at all. The Democrats had enough people in congress that they did not need any votes from the Republicans, much less "pander" to them. the Republicans tried to offer ideas but were told (to the effect) elections have consequences; we won-you lost; sit down and shut up.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[dgatwood]

This. The original plan by the Democrats would not have had any of those problems. The version that actually got passed, in which they gave in to every single Republican demand for changes, does. Big surprise. Republicans look out for business and neuter any laws that affect businesses so that they can dodge their obligations.

The right fix, of course, is to mandate proportional coverage. It's literally a two-line change in a single spot. Just change:

In accordance with regulations promulgated by the Secretary, an employer to which this Act applies that has more than 200 full-time employees and that offers employees enrollment in 1 or more health benefits plans shall automatically enroll new full- time employees in one of the plans offered (subject to any waiting period authorized by law) and to continue the enrollment of current employees in a health benefits plan offered through the employer.

to:

In accordance with regulations promulgated by the Secretary, an employer to which this Act applies that has more than 200 full-time-equivalent employees and that offers employees enrollment in 1 or more health benefits plans shall automatically enroll all new employees in one of the plans offered (subject to any waiting period authorized by law) and to continue the enrollment of current employees in a health benefits plan offered through the employer. For non-full-time employees, the employer may divide the cost proportionally with the employee based on the number of hours worked by that employee in any given month divided by 120; employees have the right to refuse coverage, accepting the cash equivalent towards a plan offered under this act.

Or leave off that last part if you want to strongly encourage employers to hire only full-time employees. Either way.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[_Sharp'r_]

Except the link you posted is somewhat misleading. It's showing part-time defined as under 35 hours a week, but Obamacare used a definition of 30 hours a week for part-time for benefits purposes.

As a result, people working 25-29 hours increased after Obamacare was passed, while people working 30-34 hours decreased.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[_Sharp'r_]

in which they gave in to every single Republican demand for changes

This, to put it mildly, is B.S. They didn't give into Republican demands. The Senate committee included some of the technical fixes which were proposed (i.e. clarifying portions) and two substantive changes, which "required members of Congress and congressional staff to enroll in the government-run option and the other involved biologics medication."

Nothing the GOP suggested had anything to do with what you posted above. The committee also rejected 75% of the GOP suggested amendments. They certainly didn't give into the biggest Republican demand of all, which was to not pass the resulting law, which no Republicans voted for.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[CoolDiscoRex]

Troll? Really?

Oh, that's, that's right ... yes ... no, fine sir, you are mistaken! The United States is not a corrupt industrialized Banana Republic. We don't have a population with sn average IQ of 98, and thus a voting base of which two-thirds are below the critical thinking threshhold. Golly no. I mean, just look at black incarceration rates since the Democrats switched from openly oppressing blacks, to pretnending to like them sometime in the 60's.

Does that look like insincerity to you??? Huh Troll?

America is the greatest country on earth and iur political parties put the people above their own power time and again.

If you think otherwise, you're probably a dirty Mex ... I mean Russian. A dirty stinking lowlife Russian who totally corrupted our election what with your shifty Russian beady eyes and dishonest nature. I hate your Bla ... I mean Russians so much!

Troll.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[nasch]

He didn't say "should".

Re:Amazon's own delivery service

[nasch]

That is the risk you take when you have something delivered. In my experience it's worked out well and I've seldom if ever had anything arrive broken due to delivery or shipping methods, but it happens. If that risk isn't acceptable, go buy the router at a store where you can inspect the package before buying, or order an extra router so you have a spare in case yours stops working.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[dgatwood]

You are technically correct — the best kind of correct. After they wrote this crappy bill, that's true. The point where they gave in to the Republicans' every demand was before the bill even went into committee. Specifically, the Republicans insisted that they would not pass any single payer bill nor any bill that involved any government entitlement. The result was that the Democrats passed RomneyCare, which is radically different from the original plan, which was to create a modern, single-payer health system similar to what every other first-world nation has.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[Dare nMc]

Not as misleading as your post. As your link confirms my statement. "Obamacare hasnâ(TM)t led to a shift from full-time employment to part-time."

"it does appear that some employers are reining in workersâ(TM) hours to stay under the 30-hour cap."

Why so watered down conclusion to "appears", you might ask. Because the 1% of Americans in that 30-34 hour group before ACA, was then a survey sample size of just 30 people from the poll. A single person change would shift that "appears" instead be a increase in the hours of part time workers. IE the expected number of people in that group for no affect to be observed was around 30.3; so if the survey would have found 31 people instead of 30, then the conclusion would have been that Obamacare appeared to cause employers to increase the hours of part time employees so they would be eligible. IE the survey results that support your statement had too small of a sample to conclusively determine. And it didn't matter to the truth of the statement, that the ACA didn't cause more part time, as the numbers of part time has since started a downward turn in the years since that article.

Re: Amazon's own delivery service

[_Sharp'r_]

It's ridiculous on the face of it to claim that the people who voted against a law are responsible for the contents, but the people who voted for the law are not.

Your position is senseless, and has the added disadvantage of not being true. The Democrats may have adjusted their plan based on what they thought would pass, or would be more politically palatable, but that's on them, the people who actually wrote and passed it.

Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[devslash0]

That's the right approach. In fact, you should not automatically trust anyone. Even your girlfriend. Trust should always be earned, not assumed. In a job like this, however, there is no way to earn trust, therefore checks like this are absolutely necessary.

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[taustin]

Companies that treat their employees like shit generally only have shit employees.

Loyalty is inherently a two way street. If it only goes one way, it's not loyalty, it's gullibility.

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[novakyu]

Yap. "Distrust and verify."

(And, if you are not a total sociopath, just don't tell the people that you don't trust them; let them believe that you trust them, since it makes them feel better.)

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[Anonymous Coward]

When's the last time you gave your girlfriend a fake package?

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[DNS-and-BIND]

That's so wrong. A society in which nobody trusts each other is a shithole. A society where people trust each other by default is an amazing society that people want to live in. You want us to live in a suspicious society like Russia. No. We refuse.

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[Anonymous Coward]

Trusting first is better, hells yeah! I mean, I might not trust a stranger who looks suspicious, but regular people I tend to trust by default. I'm not a scumbag, I know most people aren't either.

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Trusting first is better"
followed by
"I might not trust a stranger who looks suspicious, regular people I tend to trust by default".

Ergo the reason we apparently don't have an amazing society. Extending your logic, you would trust a stranger who look suspicious? Or is any stranger automatically "regular people"? What defines "regular" in your world? People you actually know? Or people who look like you? You claim you're not a scumbag, sure about that?

Re:Amazon: "We just can't trust our drivers!"

[djinn6]

Trust is an obsolete way to do things. Now that we have the internet, we can replace trust with direct knowledge.

Whether it's consumer products, vacation destinations, restaurants or even plumbers, I've never been let down by anything highly rated.

Likewise, I might get the right answer 60% of the time when asking people for directions, but Google Maps can do it 99% of the time.

Besides, there's a scale to trust. If someone wanted to borrow $5 from me, I'd probably let them have it. If they're borrowing $500,000 though, that's a different story. And I suspect even in what you consider a trustworthy society, people don't go around lending their live savings without a paper trail.

So much for that

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a decent plan while it lasted.

Why would anyone steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

Its a dumb way to catch thieving drivers

Re:Why would anyone steal an empty package?

[rudy_wayne]

If you can't tell that a package is empty you deserve to be fired for excessive stupidity.

Re:Why would anyone steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why take the risk of getting caught stealing a mystery box of something that's probably a cheap piece of crap that you have no use for anyway?

Re:Why would anyone steal an empty package?

[angel'o'sphere]

A diamond with the weight of a gram is worth a small fortune.
And I bet you will never be able to judge with your hand if the diamond is inside or not.

Re:Why would anyone steal an empty package?

[farble1670]

Maybe, just maybe when TFA said "empty" it meant no merchandise inside vs. literally an empty box. Because nobody at Amazon could figure out that a completely empty box is suspicious.

but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[Joe_Dragon]

but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers what if at end of shit they don't drive back till next day? Or do they have to drive back and can't drive home at the end and just drive from home to the depot at the start of the day.

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[Martin Blank]

They use company vehicles, so almost certainly have to drive back to the depot.

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[Gojira Shipi-Taro]

Not always. Lasership (AMZN) drivers also still use personal vehicles when package traffic is high. At least in SoFL

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[sexconker]

They use company vehicles, so almost certainly have to drive back to the depot.

Nope. There are 4 or 5 very large, very obnoxious FedEx vehicles parked on my street at any given time at midnight. The drivers use them as their personal vehicles, then go to the depot, load up, drive around tossing packages at doors, then park them on the street when going home.

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

May I suggest you live on a street next to a Fed Ex depot. Perhaps you should get outside and walk around sometime.

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[Martin Blank]

FedEx may have different rules, but Amazon contracts with a lot of small companies. Those are the type that normally don't want their vehicles going home with clients.

OTOH, FedEx always delivers my packages right to the door itself with a courtesy knock or doorbell. Same driver almost every time.

Re:but with unknowing item and 1099's drivers

[sexconker]

I don't. The FedEx depot is way down by the airport.
I walk lots, dipshit.

Why would you steal an empty package?

[SuperKendall]

It seems really odd that someone would steal a package so light you could basically tell it was empty. Maybe they think they are getting some kind of small electronics? At least put a brick in there Amazon.

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hmm, package seems empty. Probably diamonds. Definitely stealing this one."

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[Tablizer]

Those packages weren't "empty", they were my scientific atmosphere samples, you insensitive clod!

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, how does Amazon know that the driver just doesn't throw the empty package away since its clear that nothing is in it, especially if he opens to check it? The driver probably figures there was a mistake at the warehouse, or with the ordering system, and instead of going through the hassle of having to account for an undelivered empty package, he just tosses it. That might be against policy, but it doesn't mean the driver is a thief.

Re: Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

Amazon gives you a package. You either deliver it, return it, or steal it.

Re: Why would you steal an empty package?

[freeze128]

Those aren't the only choices:

- While the driver is delivering a DIFFERENT package, a local thug sneaks into the truck and takes the dummy package. The driver is innocent, but now he will get fired for being a victim.
- The package falls out of the truck while in transit. Potholes are a bitch!
- The driver delivers the dummy package, but before the recipient gets to it, it is stolen by a local thief. The driver is innocent, but gets fired because of circumstance.

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[SuperKendall]

If Amazon were shipping diamonds I'm pretty sure it would be in a thin bubble envelope, pre-mangled with a small hole punched in it.

At least that would match the quality of previous packing jobs I've seen them do.

Re: Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

- The driver delivers the dummy package, but before the recipient gets to it, it is stolen by a local thief. The driver is innocent, but gets fired because of circumstance.

You might want to think that first part through...

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[jtgd]

A brick the size and shape and weight of a flat screen TV.

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[AntronArgaiv]

Our company CEO ordered a jug of laundry detergent from Amazon for his college-age son. (don't judge) It was delivered here at work and I happened to be there when it showed up, leaking. I felt sorry for the receptionist, so I checked the address to find out who the idiot was who'd ordered it and dumped the whole thing in the sink, where I opened the soggy cardboard box and proceeded to start rinsing the detergent off the jug .

Amazon had put a shrink-wrap sleeve over the detergent jug (which did nothing to prevent the cap from loosening), and thrown it in one of their standard boxes, along with a strip of those air pillows. This worked about as well as it usually does.

My hands smelled clean and fresh for the remainder of the day. Try to avoid ordering liquids from Amazon, is the moral of this story.

Re: Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

First question: They lock the doors on their trucks. The smoking area at my office is right next to where the delivery drivers park, I see them do it daily.
Second question: If they are leaving the door open on the package truck while they are going down the road, they deserve no only to be fired, but ticketed by the cops for insecure load.
Third question: You don't deliver packages you can't scan... Duh.

Comon, you got to have something better then that.

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[EdwardFurlong]

I have ordered 24 packs of Monster off of Amazon. They put a case in a box that is 3/4ths empty space with one piece of brown paper packing material. They kept coming damaged so I quit ordering them from Amazon. What do they expect to happen with all that weight just flopping around in a box?

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've got lots of those Texas Air samples. My son loves to stomp on them to make a loud bang. Hopefully TX air and GA air are compatible; their football teams are most certainly not.

Re: Why would you steal an empty package?

[jeff4747]

- While the driver is delivering a DIFFERENT package, a local thug sneaks into the truck and takes the dummy package. The driver is innocent, but now he will get fired for being a victim.

No, they get fired for failing to secure their vehicle and all the packages inside it.

The package falls out of the truck while in transit. Potholes are a bitch!

No, they get fired for failing to secure their vehicle and all the packages inside it.

The driver delivers the dummy package, but before the recipient gets to it, it is stolen by a local thief. The driver is innocent, but gets fired because of circumstance.

The point of displaying an error is that there is no place for the package to be delivered to. It's supposed to be returned because of the error. So if they deliver it despite the error, they are still doing it wrong.

Re:Why would you steal an empty package?

[nasch]

How do you tell the difference between an empty package and one containing a single SD card? or a poster? Et cetera, et cetera. I'm sure these drivers are used to delivering packages that feel empty every single day.

Wrong package and name to my house

[Anonymous Coward]

So like... I've gotten some $5 plastic junk to my home via Amazon... has my address but some name that was never a previous person at the address in the last 20 years. This has happened twice. I would return the item, but it's not worth my time or Amazon's. Here's hoping it doesn't happen a 3rd time.

Thug?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the quote in the summary is a mistake, or someone doesn't know the difference between a thug and a thief.

Re:Thug?

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

Now, Thug Life = Stealing pens from the break room.

This century continues to surprise me with its patheticness.

Re:If everyone stole

[Anonymous Coward]

stand back, Internet Tough Guy over here

Note to self: tell drones to steal fake packages

[WillAffleckUW]

1. Amazon puts fake label packages in truck.
2. Driver delivers package.
3. When delivery permiter tripped, drone flies into truck during delivery, while fake dogs engage delivery person.
4. Package with fake label searched for by drone.
5. Package located.
6. Drone "borrows" fake label package.
7. Profit!

Re: If everyone stole

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno man. Just because they're large organisations that won't suffer from minor theft, it's not a good thing to encourage the behaviour. It sets a bad example that if you can take advantage of someone more powerful than you and don't get caught, it's OK.

Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[RickyShade]

This serves to catch drivers who take an opportunity to steal something when it arises, not who are actively seeking to steal.

And I imagine, now that the word is out on this...

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is that entrapment? Nobody is coercing these people into stealing something, they're doing it completely on their own.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[farble1670]

This serves to catch drivers who take an opportunity to steal something when it arises, not who are actively seeking to steal.

Seems like a pointless distinction to me. Definitely a pointless distinction legally.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[quonset]

You have no idea what entrapment is, do you?

This is why people shouldn't take legal advice from anyone on /..

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[alvinrod]

Any driver that's actively stealing packages is probably going to be caught much sooner as their employer is going to get a lot of complaints of missing packages and it's not too hard to figure out what's going on if they're all from the same truck. Hell, if they're actively looking to steal that badly, they might just drive off with the truck itself.

It's the slightly more clever thieves who are opportunistic that are harder to catch and can probably get away with things for much longer. If a customer complains that they didn't get a package is is because the driver stole it, it got lost in shipping, or because the customer actually received it but claimed that they didn't?

Doing this for any or all drivers seems kind of pointless, but if there were reason to suspect a particular driver, it would be a good way to catch them.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

Potayto. Potahto.

Entrapment or not, any driver who takes this opportunity to steal should be:
(1) fired on the spot,
(2) black-listed for life from any delivery or money-handling job, and
(3) reported to the police and put in jail.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

It a weird sense, I agree that there is some distinction. We've been brainwashed into thinking that somebody owns everything, so even if we stumble on something, it's not ours, even if it unclaimed. My local school has tons of items in lost and found and they get thrown in a dumpster after a year, but no parent will take them and put them to good use because "it belongs to someone else".

If you find something while walking it front of someone's house, and take it to them and ask them, does this belong to you, and they say "no", what do you do? Leave it back where you found it? Take it to the cops? Claim it for yourself because you put in a "good faith effort" to find the owner?

If you find a piece of amazon property, and the system says "I don't recognize this as a property of amazon", what must you do? No single person in amazon actually is responsible for a single item. Whether it belongs to amazon or not is determined by a computer.

What amazon is doing is programming the computer to tell lies, and then tagging humans when they misbehave. While I personally wouldn't take the item, I'm not sure it's the best thing to condition a population to never break even the smallest rule..

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

For entrapment I would imagine that there is a big difference between a criminal charge and a private company deciding to fire someone. For "at will" states an employer doesn't have to have a reason to fire. This might also fall under the legal theory that allows police to use "bait cars". See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bait_car
Putting aside the legal distinction between criminal and civil action; I think to the extent that you aren't enticing a person, as in not exposing an employee to a theft opportunity outside the normal bounds of their duty, that this would be a long ways away from the prohibition of "entrapment".
We also have to keep in mind that while the word entrapment has precise legal definition, for a informal discussion, a person can use a looser "moral" definition of what they think entrapment is.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[h33t l4x0r]

Definitely a pointless distinction legally

Legally there's no crime at all, since the package was empty.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Martin Blank]

The box doesn't belong to the driver.

They're not doing this to file charges. They're doing this to fire dishonest drivers.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Martin Blank]

If you find a piece of amazon property, and the system says "I don't recognize this as a property of amazon", what must you do?

That's not what the system says. It throws an error. Could be a problem with the barcode, could be a problem with the database entry, could be a problem with the scanner. The driver is expected to contact someone to determine how to handle it. There are procedures for it, and a driver that doesn't follow them probably shouldn't be delivering packages.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[h33t l4x0r]

We were discussing legal distinctions, which for theft depend on the value of the stolen property.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a pointless distinction legally. Entrapment requires way more than just giving someone the opportunity to commit a crime. It's the exact same as a bait car - it's a bait package.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[tehcyder]

This serves to catch drivers who take an opportunity to steal something when it arises, not who are actively seeking to steal.

Seems like a pointless distinction to me. Definitely a pointless distinction legally.

People who are serious, actives thieves will always steal, whereas if you make things a bit more difficult, you prevent a lot of opportunist crime.

Locking your house or car doors won't stop a determined thief, but it will certainly put off casual passers by from helping themselves to something they can see through the window.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get cited for stealing a pack of gum from a convenience store. Whats your point here? They could still press charges if they so chose. Its jut petty theft and not grand theft.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[jeff4747]

And I imagine, now that the word is out on this...

Amazon's goal: Not have drivers steal packages.
Option 1: Fire and/or file charges against drivers after they steal.
Option 2: Let everyone know that they test drivers via dummy packages, preventing thefts in the first place.

Either way, Amazon gets what it wants.

Re:Wow entrapment of your employees, neat.

[Anonymous Coward]

This serves to catch drivers who take an opportunity to steal something when it arises, not who are actively seeking to steal.

What? Just because it seems easy doesn't mean you aren't actively stealing something. If I go fishing with a friend and I realize no one knows he's with me, so I kill him and sink the body in the lakee, because I can get away with it, is that murder? I didn't actively seek to find a go place to murder him. I just took the opportunity to kill when it arises. Does that not sound like the logic of a total nut job? How much have you stolen from people because of this justification? I'm betting it isn't nothing.

Entrapment?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure almost anyone is capable of crime.

If you start making it very tempting to steal, I'm not sure you've caught a bad guy - just a person who wasn't thinking right in the heat of the moment.

Maybe better to just put a message into the error dialogue that makes it tempting to do the moral thing... 'package ID not found - please return to legal owner (Amazon)'

Re:Entrapment?

[Tyr07]

It's not entrapment.

Your job is to deliver the package. They didn't do anything that suggests you should keep it instead. There is no reason to believe you can keep it just because there is an error scanning it. It's not yours. No one said it's fine to keep if the system has a problem with it.

It's a sealed box. Calling that entrapment would be like saying people parking their cars on streets sometimes get stolen, and putting a car alarm in them is baiting them to steal it for entrapment. At no point was it suggested or pushed that you should steal a car.t.

Re:Entrapment?

[taustin]

If you start making it very tempting to steal, I'm not sure you've caught a bad guy - just a person who wasn't thinking right in the heat of the moment.

The word for such a person is "thief."

If I were desperate I'd steal too

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really up to you as a business owner (I am one myself) to develop procedures to reduce or eliminate fraud and theft. I honestly have less of a problem with those who steal from me (including credit card fraud which has a direct impact on me personally being the owner) than I have with a small percentage of actual customers of which whom are dicks. And don't get me wrong I've gotten really pissed at credit card fraudsters too but more because they were self-entitled ass holes than because they defrauded us and I'm not talking about insignificant frauds either but ones involving $2,000-$10,000. Those who would dick us over for $40 items piss me off more than the professionals because these sorts are just self entitled ass holes who think that because something was defective they have a right to charge shit back without ever even attempting to reach out- or think they are entitled even after the warranty/return period/etc has lapsed.

Good

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, what is wrong with this? They are catching people stealing from the public without doing anything invasive. It’s the public that suffers from package thieves, I say we should encourage this.

So you trust them that little?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this admitting that maybe the contractors are hiring some real winners? If Amazon hs to do this, why should I trust them to place packages in my home???

Clearly other scanning errors occur

[Anonymous Coward]

This was brilliantly "leaked". Now, whenever there's an error, they'll be afraid to steal it. All they need to do is to do this occasionally, intentionally, and the word will spread. Hell, maybe they just need to spread the message and never even have to actually do the Ole 'fake package error thing' trick.

Re:If everyone stole

[taustin]

The only thing you've ever stolen from anyone is the shit stain in your shorts when you were typing that BS.

Duh

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't get what these people are whining about. If Shady Sammy approaches you and says you "hey, I got dis package goin' on da truck wit a $5000 camera in it, and I've arranged for it to get 'lost' in the system, so all ya' gotta do is make it disappear and we can sell the item and split the profit. Nobody needs ta know." But it turns out Sammy is a cop, and he's enticing you to break the law just so he can arrest you, THAT is a problem. If, on the other hand, its your employer, and there's just what looks like a possible opportunity to do something that might not be easy to notice, that's very very different.

I'm reminded of

[rsilvergun]

this.

If you're wondering why this feels like entrapment even though legally it's not; it's because Amazon treats their workers badly enough (and keeps them financially desperate enough) that temping them with something so minor is enough to push them over the edge. Want people to stop risking their jobs and jail time for what's maybe a $20 package? Pay them enough to live.

Re: I'm reminded of

[Type44Q]

Mod up!

Re: I'm reminded of

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Can't make me.

Re:I'm reminded of

[Anonymous Coward]

So I read that article. The reactions to it are in line with 2018, where black people in poor communities can do nothing wrong and police are out to get them. One is lead to think that the police is baiting poor people with things they can't resist stealing because they are poor. This is kind of like blaming the victim for wearing stealable/rapeable stuff though when the thief or assaulter just couldn't help it.

Anyway the same article says the baiting was done in that area because *there is a history of truck thefts in that area*. They already know there are people there who steal from trucks. They didn't just decide to pop in a poor neighborhood and start baitin. Frankly, I'd like to see what you do if people start stealing your packages from your porch while you're at work.

Re: I'm reminded of

[houghi]

Used to work for a company who sold cell phones. Most sales people would get new phones from the phone companies. For them that ewas a new phone every 3 months or so.
Trading in phones for a reduction in price would be around 30 EUR. Still plenty who got caight stealing these second hand phones.

For ythise interested. The phones where sold by the crate and shipped to somewhere in Africa.

Re:I'm reminded of

[Fringe]

So are you saying everyone paid less than Amazon delivery drivers are justified in committing theft?
Or that working for Amazon is worse than not working?
Or that all unemployed are thieves?
Because that's what it looks like you're saying. That a company that offers you a job, but doesn't force you to accept it, deserves criminal response if you choose to accept it at a lower wage than you'd like.

Thanks for sharing this

[Anonymous Coward]

So nice to disclose Az's protocols. I am sure the drivers appreciate it.

Re: That's "done right" in the USA...

[Anonymous Coward]

technically a box that osnt supposed to be delivered to a customer is still amazons property. as such they can keep track of said fake package all they want

lol

[Anonymous Coward]

as opposed to people who steal when there is no opportunity to steal....ummm...

Re:If everyone stole

[four20_BlzItFgt]

The shit is there for the taking. I kno sum ppl that work in the electronics section of Walmart n Target. They kno how to just take the beats without security noticing. Why beats? cause they arnt tracked in the inventory tracking, they never kno how much they got in stock, so they nvr notice if u steal. Wit ps4 or tv you get fuckt, beats u dont. You resell beats on craigslist, haf price, 100% profit. It's all about sustainable theft n makin a buisness. Be smart, don't be a retard.

Trust but verify

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like good practice to me. Trust the drivers will do as told, but also verify that they actually did it.

This is no different from putting know counterfeit bills into a bill scanner once in a while to see if it really works.

Would the drivers rather prefer cameras capturing their every move?

Oh, some people got pissed because they would actually got caught stealing stuff? Cry me a river.

Amazon driver stole UPS pkg from me

[rahmrh]

An Amazon driver stole UPS pkg from my house. Unlucky for them my cameras caught the event. UPS delivered the package at around 3 and Amazon delivered another package and picked up the UPS package and took the proof of their delivery picture.

The driver and "assistant" both got caught, fired and charged. Amazon was pretty difficult to deal with getting things made right, at least until the Sheriff showed up at their facility with the pictures and license places and talked to the driver.

So amazon probably does need to do this. It was not clear the assistant was a amazon employ, but the assistant did not get diversion while the driver did. The assistant had a previous theft record so this was not his first crime.

Better than PostNL covering for stealing employees

[Anonymous Coward]

PostNL just covers for stealing employees.
Pretending that it didn't happen.
Or putting the blame on the sender by telling them that they probably didn't include the item
or supposed to better package the items because the item might also have fallen out of it.
I closed packages with red duct tape. Several receivers got their packages with transparent tape.

Stitch up their management too

[Anonymous Coward]

OK, so it'd also be fair to leave inviting opportunities for Amazon's executives to be dishonest and break the law for personal gain.

Re:If everyone stole

[Anonymous Coward]

Be smart, don't be a retard.

Looking at your writing, I'd say you failed in that respect.

The thug drivers read slashdot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now they know to return the packages!

Pay your taxes

[peppepz]

If you evade billions worth of taxes, you're thugs.

Re:Pay your taxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless your doing it legally.

About time

[johannesg]

Of the last four books I ordered through Amazon, I got... one. The rest mysteriously disappeared.

I was buying second-hand books, from various resellers (two in the US and two in the UK), and they didn't give me a tracking number, so who knows if the books were even dispatched at all, or where they got lost. I ended up buying the same book three times - the last time from Bol.com, which actually managed to get it delivered.

It's clear that ordering second hand books from Amazon is just not a winning proposition. And yes, I got my money back, but a success rate of 25% is just not acceptable.

As for where they disappeared... These were the first three packages to disappear since I lost some DVDs (also from the UK), around 15 years ago, so I'm inclined to think the postal service in this country is generally ok. Then again, almost every package has a tracking number these days, meaning they can actually figure out the specific individual responsible for the loss if you make a fuss. Untraced packages, on the other hand, may very well be fair game now.

Re:About time

[dargaud]

I used to live in Italy 2 decades ago. Packages with interesting (very loosely defined) things in them NEVER arrived. Packages with uninteresting (a brick maybe) things in them would arrive after a month and with several large holes in the package. It was to the point where I wondered why they didn't send ALL the mailmen to jail and start afresh with new hires. I don't know if it has improved since then but I somehow doubt it.

Re:About time

[opus_magnum]

It has and ironically it was due to Amazon being large enough to impose a SLA.

Re:About time

[dargaud]

Sei italiano ?

Re:About time

[nasch]

Your mileage may vary - I have a 100% success rate buying second hand books from Amazon for example. Every time I see these stories I wonder if these delivery problems are a regional thing, because I just never have any issues.

well

[Torvac]

you get what you pay for, in this case stealing drivers ..

Why

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not just automatically report failed scans and check that the packages are returned every time instead of just when the package is fake? This is dumb.

There's a flaw in the design.

[sabbede]

It comes down to this - "or keep the package in their truck and return it to an Amazon warehouse at the end of their shift". The problem there is that a delivery driver might have had a long day and a family they'd very much like to go home to at the end of their shift instead of driving over to an Amazon warehouse. So they just throw the damn thing away and go home.

Re:There's a flaw in the design.

[Gilgaron]

Why would any shipper be ok with their employees discarding items that didn't scan correctly?

Re:There's a flaw in the design.

[Anonymous Coward]

Drivers who throw away packages should be fired. Drivers who don't finish their job (reporting the messed up package to a superior and asking for directions) should be fired. drivers that don't lock their truck when leaving it should be fired. Drivers that drive down the road with the doors open and lose packages should be fired.

Whats with everyone saying all this bad behavior from drivers is to be expected and condoned.

Re:There's a flaw in the design.

[sabbede]

I doubt they would be, but it isn't theft.

Can't help but help themselves to your stuff!!!

[dfenstrate]

this.

If you're wondering why this feels like entrapment even though legally it's not; it's because Amazon treats their workers badly enough (and keeps them financially desperate enough) that temping them with something so minor is enough to push them over the edge. Want people to stop risking their jobs and jail time for what's maybe a $20 package? Pay them enough to live.

Poverty does not cause crime. That's an excuse you use for people whose morals are lacking. I saw your linked article (from a website founded by a noted liar, Matthew Yglesias). What's so hard about not stealing from a truck? There's a truck there? It's not yours? Keep walking! Feel bad about police bait? Well.... don't take it. They're not selling Nikes for food.

When you make excuses for the degenerate and criminal, you spit on all the people who have been poor and harmed no one. You can do your own internet search for 'Does Poverty Cause Crime?' and see if there's anything there that strikes your interest.

Or they could have some fun!

[Anonymous Coward]

Drop it off at the homes of the Amazon top executives and board of directors (maybe along with adding a union sign-up form inside?!)

I never had a package lost until Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

Just 3 weeks ago I ordered 2 items from Amazon that were supposed to be delivered on a Saturday. They shipped it with their own delivery service and it never arrived. When I checked the tracking it showed they delivered it at 1AM. YEAH RIGHT! At least the customer service rep was quick to realize the gross incompetence of their delivery people. The only improvement I have seen is that instead of some ghetto thug delivering my packages out of the back of his gold SUV, now they are being delivered by opiate addicts out of a white van.

Option 3: Package lost

[Anonymous Coward]

Option 4: package stolen by someone else (less likely)
Option 5: driver throws packages into dumpsters instead of delivering.
No matter what, this wastes small amounts of time for more than one person (driver, supervisor) so it has to be rare.

Re:Option 3: Package lost

[ebvwfbw]

Option 4: package stolen by someone else (less likely)
Option 5: driver throws packages into dumpsters instead of delivering.
No matter what, this wastes small amounts of time for more than one person (driver, supervisor) so it has to be rare.

Option 4 - It's scanned back into the warehouse. Then it's stolen and they bust the manager that was just convinced it had a fit bit in it.

Amazon's tracking system must not be too good

[Anonymous Coward]

This "trap" would not be effective unless it is a frequent occurrence for a driver to get an error message while scanning a package. Amazon's package tracking system must not be as good as I thought!

Progressive desensitization at Amazon HQ?

[Paul Fernhout]

If Amazon customer service and delivery quality is decreasing over time, wonder if this increasingly applies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
"Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me) is a non-fiction book by social psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson, first published in 2007. It deals with cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and other cognitive biases, using these psychological theories to illustrate how the perpetrators (and victims) of hurtful acts justify and rationalize their behavior. It describes a positive feedback loop of action and self-deception by which slight differences between people's attitudes become polarized."

You're a Russian Troll, aren't you?

[rsilvergun]

That's literally the only logical explanation for what you just wrote.

Stop trying to be all things...

[martinfb]

It's a classic tale of capitalism gone a-wrye!

Amazon, in another attempt to get richer by adding it's own delivery system, has taken on a service already bested by more experienced companies, like USPS, FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc...

I say let the established, experienced companies handle shipping matters.
Let those companies figure out how to use drone deliveries, and how to catch "thug" drivers.
They seem to already be much better at it!

Bait Boxes

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't they put a paper in the box, saying, "If you're reading this, then you've just been baited."

Priorities

[dave-man]

We all have our own priorities. Mine is the last mile delivery by USPS which can take three days to get the last few miles. Amazon doesn't seem to care.

Empty boxes?

[oldmac31310]

Then why would anyone steal them?

Who's next?

[McFortner]

Damn, I wish they would do this with the Post Office. A lot of thieves there and being civil service they are hard to get rid of, so they go right on stealing stuff.