Slashdot Mirror
How Microsoft Rewrote Its C# Compiler in C# and Made It Open Source (medium.com)
Mads Torgersen, the lead designer of C# at Microsoft, remembers "Project Roslyn," which built an open-source, cross-platform compiler for C# and Visual Basic.NET "in the deepest darkness of last decade's corporate Microsoft:
We would build a language engine! A unified, public API to C# code: We would redefine the meaning of "compiler". Of course, once you are building an API for the broad C# community, it is kind of a slam-dunk that it should be a .NET API, implemented in C#. So, the old dream of "bootstrapping" C# in C# was fulfilled almost as an accidental side benefit. Roslyn was thus born out of an openness mindset: sharing the inner workings of the C# language for the world to programmatically consume.
This in and of itself was a bit of a bold proposition in what was still a pervasively closed culture at Microsoft: We would share this intellectual property for free? We would empower tool builders that weren't us to better compete with us? The arguments that won the day for us here were about strengthening the ecosystem and becoming the best tooled language on the planet. They were about long-term growth of C# and .NET, versus short term monetization and protection of assets for Microsoft. So even without having mentioned open source, signing up for the cost and risk of the Roslyn project was a big and bold step for Microsoft....
F# released already in 2010 with an open source license and its own foundation -- the F# Software Foundation. The vibrant community that grew up around it soon became the envy of us all. Our team pushed strongly to have an open source production license for Roslyn, and finally a company-wide infrastructure emerged to make it real. By 2012, Microsoft had created Microsoft Open Tech; an organization specifically focused on open source projects. Roslyn moved under Microsoft Open Tech and officially became open source... C# language design and compiler implementation are now completely open processes, with lots of non-Microsoft participation, including whole language features being built by external contributors.
Torgersen's article says C# now enjoys "the scaling of effort via contribution of features and bug fixes, but also the insight and course correction we get through the instant, daily feedback loop that open source provides.
"It's been a long and wild journey, and one that to me is symbolic of the massive changes that Microsoft has undergone over the last decade."
This in and of itself was a bit of a bold proposition in what was still a pervasively closed culture at Microsoft: We would share this intellectual property for free? We would empower tool builders that weren't us to better compete with us? The arguments that won the day for us here were about strengthening the ecosystem and becoming the best tooled language on the planet. They were about long-term growth of C# and .NET, versus short term monetization and protection of assets for Microsoft. So even without having mentioned open source, signing up for the cost and risk of the Roslyn project was a big and bold step for Microsoft....
F# released already in 2010 with an open source license and its own foundation -- the F# Software Foundation. The vibrant community that grew up around it soon became the envy of us all. Our team pushed strongly to have an open source production license for Roslyn, and finally a company-wide infrastructure emerged to make it real. By 2012, Microsoft had created Microsoft Open Tech; an organization specifically focused on open source projects. Roslyn moved under Microsoft Open Tech and officially became open source... C# language design and compiler implementation are now completely open processes, with lots of non-Microsoft participation, including whole language features being built by external contributors.
Torgersen's article says C# now enjoys "the scaling of effort via contribution of features and bug fixes, but also the insight and course correction we get through the instant, daily feedback loop that open source provides.
"It's been a long and wild journey, and one that to me is symbolic of the massive changes that Microsoft has undergone over the last decade."
How is this even news?
Nifty
The question I'm asking is why?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Yes, they are not the first - bids start at least 45 years ago.
IBM MASM, LE, Rexx possibly. I may be wrong as Algol and PL/I and some Fortran's in the age of 360's.
Fujitsu also had some really cool compilers complete with CSECT and DSECT's - something that ifaik is not available today.
My gut tells me Seymour Cray of Cray computer would have done this, and a company DEC as well.
Lastly the syntax and railway lines of a 'Language' is not intellectual property, and most CS courses have 'Write a compiler' assignment in them.
I remember that. It was a while ago. I think it was the same year as "the year of Linux on the desktop".
That's really dumb, whilst I agree there are too many languages out there, and people don't always need to make new ones when existing ones exist, we also don't want a monoculture where tech goes down one singular path.
The fact is C# and .NET were already well established, before LLVM even came into existence, and have a massive ecosystem around them with millions of devs and companies using it.
Thus, making it able to work for more people in more places is a good thing, and given it's strong base, like Java, it's a reasonable piece of alternative tech that should stay alternative and not be converged into a great LLVM monolith where progress will never happen because there's no competition anymore. That would be a terrible outcome for everyone, it's what happened when IE "won" the browser wars and we were all stuck with IE6 ruling the browser world for half a decade.
As for your comment on bugs, I'm not sure what your point is. You're basically arguing against open source altogether at that point because you're saying if a community finds and logs bugs it's a terrible thing? How fucking stupid are you? The whole point in open source is precisely so that many eyes can spot problems and collaborate to fix them. There are plenty of major open source projects that are nothing to do with Microsoft in the exact same position. If you criticise an organisation for properly tracking all it's bugs and doing so publicly and for allowing people to contribute more bug reports and also therefore allowing open source devs to also chip in and fix them, then you're basically arguing companies shouldn't open source because you'll shame them for letting other people work on the project.
People like you really need to get over your irrational Microsoft hate and take a leaf out of Torvald's book and go and get some professional help. You're exactly the sort of toxic open source community member he was talking about, because even when you've got literally everything you wanted from a formerly proprietary company - i.e. a complete open sourcing of one of their key products, you STILL bitch and moan at them and imply they shouldn't have done it. You're exactly the sort of person the OSS community doesn't need because you're exactly the sort of no-life vermin that pushes organisations and individuals away from contributing to it.
I don't think TFS suggest a claim to be first.
Anyway, you should probably avoid all Apple publicity material if you're this sensitive.
I thought the mindset of open source was that YOU did things how YOU wanted to do them, and provide the source so that people can fork if they disagree?
That is after all why there are over a thousand text editors for linux.
That is why you have X.org and X386 if I recall correctly.
VIM and emacs.
etc.
My guess is that no matter what Microsoft does, you will complain about it.
Please ignore. Post started insightful and became flame bait - seems I jumped the gun in rewarding it.
Some people just like to whine about other people because it makes them feel better about themselves, like what I'm doing right now.
Listen buddy, you have to take things into perspective!
I have a hearing loss in one ear, so my audio will always be suspect. I use a Zoom H2 audio recorder with a pop filter 12" away from my mouth, Audacity to clean up and normalize the audio, and sync the audio to the video and apply a "voice enhancement" eq to the audio in the video editor.
This doesn't mean I am a retard!!!!!!
--
Forget Night School for G.E.D., Go To Community College for Associate!
The parent is a fake creimer and is desperate for attention.
That is why you have X.org and X386
The project was named XFree86. You were so very, very close :)
Yaz
Indeed. MS is always very proud of doing it far worse than all those that have done something similar before...
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
If they wanted to actually contribute to the community then they would have made an LLVM frontend
They did. LLVM is not currently a great fit for garbage collected languages, though the LLILC team worked with some of the Azure folks to improve it in this regard. LLVM also suffered from longer compile times (important for a JIT). The Roslyn architecture makes it easy to incrementally replace the JIT, because it supports trying to compile individual functions with a new JIT and falling back to the old one if it doesn't support all of the functionality required. The LLILC team made use of this when trying to bootstrap.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I think it was the same year as "the year of Linux on the desktop".
No, that's this year! ;-)
Yes!
The original comment by Gravis Zero wasn't a personal attack against anyone.
But #57398358 attacked that person, not what they said.
All good points in your reply.
CAP === 'bashing'
So, the old dream of "bootstrapping" C# in C# was fulfilled almost as an accidental side benefit.
Obfuscation makes bugs and security vulnerabilities much harder to find, understand, and squash. No thank you.
They claim it was a first for MS, not the whole world.
And interesting how they downmodded you to -1. Seems the commies have lots of modpoints. Bought by their paymaster SOROS, I guess.
Here is a list of Alternative Projects:
* OpenBSD
* YaCY, Qwant, Yandex (instead of Google Communism)
* RPI as your own server instead of github
* Bittorrent, real.video instead of youtube
* Breitbart.com instead of the mainstream liars
Don't forget to boycott Google, too.
A bunch of megalomanics who were kicked out of Moscow, because they wanted to control Russia. Now they (and their friend Soros) want to control NATO. Let's see how long it takes for them to be booted out, again.
...they build a free version of Windows, called ReactOS.
So you can run your programs even after Dollarsoft has tanked or decided to remove all Windows and call it "Windows 8".
ReactOS, OpenBSD, RPI personal servers - that is the way forward. Stop supporting these Marxist Megalomanic corporations.
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/09/12/leaked-video-google-leaderships-dismayed-reaction-to-trump-election/
https://www.real.video/5842261460001
Stop with the phony, "But, we like open source now."
Nobody buys your propaganda theatre, Microsoft.
Is it a patent trap if it is under the Apache licence? I'm not sure where one stands legally if they patent something and then release it under the Apache licence, which AFAICS is very similar to the BSD licence.
Why UNIX?
So, Microsoft rewrote it's C-pound compiler in C-pound and made it
C-flat, I think.
But yeah, what's the point when openjdk is there, why bother, meh. Pretty much the same language, pretty much the same paradigm. Why bother? If you want to help the world, work on rust or nim. They look promising.
Why UNIX?
Vibrant F# community?
The first conversations about what would become Roslyn were already ongoing when I joined Microsoft in 2005 - just before .NET 2.0 would ship. That conversation was about rewriting C# in C#. This is a normal practice for programming languages; a proof point of the maturity of the language.
From the article: "Writing a new compiler for C# means trying to match the old compiler bug-for-bug."
Thank you, Microsoft, for preserving all old bugs and adding a few more in the process. Now, we have a definite proof that an open source software can be even more buggier than the closed source version.
They have submitted code. Infact clang is an option in visual studio community as an option. .net core is available for Linux and so is visual studio code editor. Redhat is ditching Mono and even including Microsoft's Rosslyn and let's not forget WSL for Windows10 nor Android sdk including Android emulators with Visual studio either or the fact that Bill Gates himself owns a Samsung phone.
I am not saying to be a MS fanboy. What I am saying is MS is changing due to the world changing around them. It isn't 1999 anymore. Apple is much more powerful and popular than back then. Also IOS, Android, HTML 5 browsers, cloud computing, and a plethora of free languages and apis like python, R, rust, node.js, and others changed the landscape. Gone are VB, COM, vc++, Internet Explorer, and WinCE.
MS has a new CEO who realized they no longer set the pace of the industry and if they want to remain relevant they and not loose mellinial developers they need to include, not exclude.
So that is the argument. Remember Apple was cool here and open source too back in 1999 on slashdot. They turned assholish FAST and more aggressive than MS when they got power. All companies are the same once they corner a market
http://saveie6.com/
> By the way. the reason people don't trust MS is most likely because they are a decade or 2 older than you, and actually remember what MS has done in the past first-hand, and also observe how most 'changes' from MS are actually double-bottomed party tricks.
And there we have it, speculation, bullshit, and paranoia, with no ability to look objectively at the fact that companies are made of the people who staff them, and that the people that staffed the Microsoft you remember from 20 years ago aren't even in the company anymore.
The reason you are pissed at my post, isn't because you have some secret knowledge of Microsoft's dastardly plan that others just don't, because of the false assumption that you're older and have been around longer, but is in fact because you're also in the same category as the GP as being someone that just can't move on, can't let go, and can't rationally analyse the facts.
Microsoft could open source Windows and hire Torvalds as the CTO and you'd still think it's some kind of dastardly plan, that's how utterly retarded folks like you are. You can't forgive, and can't forget, because you're defective.
Trust is hard to gain back.
Yours might not be, but mine is.
Candy cash...is that like candy crush? Where can I sign up?
Here's one big difference: Microsoft's C# compiler (licensed under the Apache 2.0 license) is a way to get its users into becoming dependent on the patent-encumbered .NET (as quoted in the /. summary, the article said "Of course, once you are building an API for the broad C# community, it is kind of a slam-dunk that it should be a .NET API, implemented in C#."). Apache 2.0 is more recommendable than other permissive licenses but Apache 2.0 doesn't look out for your interests in modifying and distributing modified software as well as the GNU GPLv3 does. .NET is still a patent-encumbered trap. I can't say the same for GCC (licensed under the GNU GPLv3 or later with the GCC Runtime Library Exception.
A reminder of what limits you're taking on by using .NET:
This is very different from code licensed under the GNU GPLv3:
Digital Citizen
And who is it that has to gain your trust back exactly? The artificial inanimate construct that is the trademark "Microsoft"?
Or the people who work at Microsoft NOW and are responsible for turning it into the biggest open source contributor on the planet and making it an open source power house, that are driving the company's open source strategy ever forward? You want them to somehow gain your trust back, even though they're the ones who are doing exactly as you think they should do?
Or are you expecting the people who have retired, or even died of old age that used to work at Microsoft 20 years ago that did the things you didn't like to come back from retirement, come back from the dead, and make up for the things you hate them for? If so, are you SURE you want those people back in the company?
THIS is why you're irrational, this is why you're a crackpot, because you don't even know who or what it is that has to gain your trust back. You just know you hated something once and someone, or something, somewhere, or somehow, has to do some arbitrary thing to make you not hate.
I've got news for you, you're fucking irrelevant. No one is going to make anything up to you because you're not owed anything, and the people you hate aren't even around anymore - they've fucked off into the sunset with their millions and billions playing around with dastardly evil things like cures for malaria and polio and such. Meanwhile, most the people who are under the inanimate artificial construct whose name you associate with hate have already been working hard to do things right for a decade now, so they just don't care what you think because they've not done anything wrong for your hate to be meaningful.
Trust is hard to gain back.
Yours might not be, but mine is.
So what sort of computer do you use? I mean with all the backdoors in Intel, AMD and the various modem chips that hard-to-gain-back trust must leave you with slim pickings for computer parts.
By the way. the reason people don't trust MS is most likely because they are a decade or 2 older than you, and actually remember what MS has done in the past first-hand
Oh you mean like "embrace, extend, extinguish", the thing that never actually happened to anything it was actually attributed to? Java was a shitty technology and Microsoft was right that that horrible abortion should have died but it clung to live and has infected personal computing via Android. Or web standards? That both competitors in the browser wars had worked against but ultimately the victor of that war has come to support? Anytime slashdot-types attribute EEE to something you can be pretty certain the opposite will happen (though there is a bit of a history of that with the iPod and iPhone as well).
and also observe how most 'changes' from MS are actually double-bottomed party tricks.
Specifically which ones?
Open-sourcing some code will not erase such memories.
I dont think that was the suggestion, the suggestion is you evaluate the recent actions of the people in the company now rather than the things different people did 2 decades ago. Do you know where those people work now? How do you feel about those companies?
The irony here is out of this world. But I'm not surprised, that kind of hypocrisy is so typical of the kinds of people who use terms like toxic in the context of people. No-one is entitled to a different opinion, it's your way or the highway, and you're completely justified when you degrade others, but they're apparently the toxic people...
Go have a good hard look in the mirror before you go stoning others.
The irony is its called "open source" when most of the people who believe it are "closed" to most things outside their little community.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
Do you know where those people work now? How do you feel about those companies?
Any long term /. reader will know that most big companies are frown upon. How Apple went from nerd's favorite to fanboys. How Google is almost synonym for Big Bro. How IBM went from markt leader to small boy.
Any big company should be observed with skepticism and reservation, not only the tech sector, but the tech sector simply has a big influence on our daily lives and the future to come. That's why they are under a microscope. It's also why they are not expected to change fast.
But when it comes to Microsoft it's also why 2 decades of bad behavior is not suddenly forgotten after one decade of being 'OS friendly' or 'no longer OS hostile', especially if you see how they treat their customers with win10 when it comes to privacy.
But any day Microsoft fanboys take over /. is a sad day, and today is one.
A glitch a day keeps the bugs away.
See subject: his FAKEname on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & altering /.er's words.
c6gunner tried to mock me 1st https://linux.slashdot.org/com...
So I challenge c6gunner to show he did better work than mine & he CAN'T!
YOU DEMAND PROOF of others here? "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) ?
So now I DEMAND IT OF YOU & YOU FAIL!
c6gunner = "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!
* c6gunner's LYING saying I did a MacOS X one - I haven't yet & c6gunner's LYING impersonating me hosts work vs. Intel CPU issues (spectre/meltdown).
APK
P.S.=> You say hosts = shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ? /.ers & security pros SAY DIFFERENT: /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments....
SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments....
REAL RESULTS w/ hosts vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments....
EAT YOUR WORDS!
See subject: his FAKEname on a post impersonating me https://linux.slashdot.org/com... & altering /.er's words.
c6gunner tried to mock me 1st https://linux.slashdot.org/com...
So I challenge c6gunner to show he did better work than mine & he CAN'T!
YOU DEMAND PROOF of others here? "I've yet to see you provide any evidence of that." by c6gunner on Monday March 15, 2010 @10:02PM (#31490942) ?
So now I DEMAND IT OF YOU & YOU FAIL!
c6gunner = "Run, Forrest: RUN!!!
* c6gunner's LYING saying I did a MacOS X one - I haven't yet & c6gunner's LYING impersonating me hosts work vs. Intel CPU issues (spectre/meltdown).
APK
P.S.=> You say hosts = shit here https://slashdot.org/comments.... ? /.ers & security pros SAY DIFFERENT: /.ers https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments.... https://slashdot.org/comments....
SECURITY PROS https://slashdot.org/comments....
REAL RESULTS w/ hosts vs. threats https://slashdot.org/comments....
EAT YOUR WORDS!