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Trump Administration Prepares a Major Weakening of Mercury Emissions Rules (nytimes.com)

The Trump administration has completed a detailed legal proposal to dramatically weaken a major environmental regulation covering mercury, a toxic chemical emitted from coal-burning power plants, The New York Times reports, citing a person familiar with the matter. From the report: The proposal would not eliminate the mercury regulation entirely, but it is designed to put in place the legal justification for the Trump administration to weaken it and several other pollution rules, while setting the stage for a possible full repeal of the rule. Andrew Wheeler, a former coal lobbyist who is now the acting administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, is expected in the coming days to send the proposal to the White House for approval. The move is the latest, and one of the most significant, in the Trump administration's steady march of rollbacks of Obama-era health and environmental regulations on polluting industries, particularly coal. The weakening of the mercury rule -- which the E.P.A. considers the most expensive clean air regulation ever put forth in terms of annual cost to industry -- would represent a major victory for the coal industry. Mercury is known to damage the nervous systems of children and fetuses.

37 of 266 comments (clear)

  1. do I just hang out on lefty sites by queBurro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    or is this man truly evil?

    --
    sag
    1. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 5, Interesting

      ...Andrew Wheeler, a former coal lobbyist who is now the acting administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency...

      "What further need have we of witnesses?"

    2. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by The+Evil+Atheist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A real estate mogul who defrauded people with his "deals" and "university". Then hired guys to run his campaign who stole money. And now he wants to give people nerve damage.

      You live in a sick world where you think poisoning people with mercury is a good thingl.

      --
      Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
    3. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by Freischutz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      or is this man truly evil?

      Kind of, but it’s more like the definition of what is conservative and right wing has shifted so far to the right into fringe lunatic country that what counted as stuffy, conservative and right of center in the Reagan era has now become the center left. I think John Boehner kind of summed it up: There is no Republican Party, there is only a Trump Party, the Republican Party is off taking a nap somewhere”. I would add that the Trump Party is a lunatic convention, it sure as hell is not kind of generally rational conservative party I grew up with.

    4. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by houghi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I do believe that many did not so much voted for Trump, but against established politicians.
      The problem is that you have a two party system, so that was their only option. I live in Belgium and have a multi-party system.
      First this means more choise for the people and more negotiations for the politicians. That excludes extreme measurements.

      Once in a while, politicians are politicians and then some protest party will rise and get enough votes to get elected. They will be a minority, but still a very strong signal to all political parties that they are doing something wrong. They will adapt and most of the time those parties will devolve into nothingness.
      They are often parties with a limited interest in things and might say upfront they will not vote on certain subjects. e.g. only voting on environment, but not on defense issues. Or privacy (thing The Pirate Party)

      They are a sort of political valve. Sometimes these parties grow and stay (e.g. the green parties)

      These type of voters have no where to go in the USofA.

      Now for the bad news. They still have nowhere to go. As long as you have the two-party system where winner takes all, do not expect it to improve. The US is going to a Feudal system where the CEOs are the new Kings who divide the plebs among themselves.

      When you look at history, the fact that people had anything to say at all is an anomaly.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by GameboyRMH · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Whats next, letting car's take off their catalitic converters so they can double their gas mileage?

      Catalytic converters actually have a miniscule effect on gas mileage.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    6. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by andydread · · Score: 2

      Here here. The Russians literally got him into office so he can appoint people who want to destroy the world and look good. Just look at the rapist supreme court guy. These guys have no shame. Whats next, letting car's take off their catalitic converters so they can double their gas mileage? Weve really gotta put a stop to this. To TRUMP and the Russians. They are literally trying to poison us with heavy metal now and all thats gonna happen is Slashdot will report on it.

      Reporting is a start. Now how about you take this information, draw up some dead easy to understand flyers and go around in a red state and go knock on doors? no....facebook does not count. If you seriously want to fix this that is what has to be done. Get some people who feel the same way to help and knock on even more doors. You may convince 1-in-7 to change their vote, maybe even 1-in-5. some districts are won by as little as 3 votes. First it was the pesticide thing now it's mercury. I'm sure even people in those districts don't want their kids and or grandkids getting slowly poisoned with mercury and brain damaging pesticides.

    7. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by Farmer+Tim · · Score: 2

      But that ignores the question of whether it’s for the sake of a fuck (singular possessive of a noun), or the sake of many fucks (plural verb).

      Consider the similar expression “For God’s sake” or “For heaven’s sake”. In this use the apostrophe denoting the singular possessive is correct, because the context is a language in a monotheistic culture...there’s only one God and one heaven. There’s a second parallel here, since it’s not uncommon for people to yell “oh god!” when they fuck, and as an atheist I’m known to yell “oh fuck!” when people try to God around me. Therefore we can conclude that the words “God” and “Fuck” are often interchangeable (and such is the confusion around these two words that many people who consider themselves gods are actually complete fucks); my view is that in this usage “fuck” should be treated as a noun, with the apostrophe.

      Now God off.

      --
      Blank until /. makes another boneheaded UI decision.
    8. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by Notabadguy · · Score: 2

      I...am not sure why you are being confrontational. I'm neither the OP, nor the comment OP - I just noted that I had read the linked article because I was bored, saw an interesting anecdote that the lead levels at the town where the smelter was located weren't any higher than the baby boomer generation was exposed to every day, and googled, "When did the EPA disallow unleaded gasoline?"

      Which ... has a pretty clear timeline.

      I'm not sure why you're grandstanding, like there's a court of public opinion that you need to be right for. Nor why you're being confrontational. I *will* note that your poor behavior is consistent with the long downslide of comment quality here at slashdot.

      If you'd be more interested in discussion and education and less interested in "You're wrong and I'm right, so you're an idiot" we wouldn't have all these stupid political discussions, arbitrary lines drawn in the sand, and verbal vomit.

    9. Re:do I just hang out on lefty sites by jbengt · · Score: 2

      . . . on older cars from the early 80s removing the catalytic converter . . . could give you a boost in fuel economy no where near twice as much but 3-5 MPG.

      Adding 3-5 MPG would double the MPG of the car I owned in the '80s. (Well, not quite, but not that far off)

  2. MAMA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Make America Mad Again

    Mad like a hatter

  3. *COUGH* by waspleg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From Wikipedia:

    Arendt's subtitle famously introduced the phrase "the banality of evil," which also serves as the final words of the book. In part, at least, the phrase refers to Eichmann's deportment at the trial as the man displayed neither guilt for his actions nor hatred for those trying him, claiming he bore no responsibility because he was simply "doing his job" ("He did his duty...; he not only obeyed orders, he also obeyed the law." p. 135).

    1. Re:*COUGH* by RatPh!nk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This is sooo vital to point out. Especially in the West (a Judeo/Christian society), we are taught and culturally have a very specific notion of what "evil" is, such that we have trouble seeing it when it actually is staring us in the face. I think of serial killer neighbors "He was such a good neighbor" or as mentioned in the book about those who perpetrated the Holocaust. "How could they seem so normal". Because many were imaging pitchforks and tails and hooves and got company men who were "doing his job" and "following the law" and "serving their country" etc....

      I am not drawing any conclusions about anyone in particular here, just noting that evil is often missed and not what we think it is....

      --
      Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
    2. Re:*COUGH* by gweihir · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The thing is, Eichmann is correct. That is why neither "orders" nor "the law" are in any form useful to determine the morality of actions. Many people do not understand that at all. The law is primarily a tool to make people behave in the way those in power want them to behave, no moral aspects involved beyond some window-dressing and PR cover-stories. The US also has discovered "the law" as an economic factor in a truly immoral act via the prison industry, where profits raise when more people are incarcerated.

      And "orders"? That is just a more strict implementation of the same thing.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  4. He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by Viol8 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    He's 72, so before any of the shit hits the fan with any force he'll probably be dead so what does he care? He'll just make sure his cronies in the oil and coal industries are happy with their backhanders then he'll retire to his golf course. Meanwhile the world could well be left picking up the pieces of his idiotic enviromental policies for decades to come when he's just a footnote in history books.

    1. Re:He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I strongly suspect that he won't be a footnote.

      Trump's presidency represents a turning point for western democracy. Do we reject amoral crony capitalism and move back towards the social compact that first brought us to prosperity, or do we embrace the post-truth, post-compassion world and descend into a new age of feudalism?

    2. Re: He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 2
      Just because someone is "not part of the political establishment" doesn't automatically make them better. That person she's accused of rigging her party's primary against backed her in the general election after the fact. That should tell you something.

      Honestly, the situation was analogous to questioning whether an experienced surgeon with some (debatably) questionable decisions on her record should perform the job or be replaced. So then it's...

      "We have the perfect person! No record of surgeries ending in infections or anything!"

      "Wait a minute, this person has no record of surgeries at all. He's not even a surgeon."

      "Exactly!"

      "So you're sure he would be competent at performing surgery?"

      "Well he's a successful business man, so he has to have some skills."

      Under further investigation it is discovered his business dealings are riddled with bankruptcies, lies, and ripping people off. And then he gets the job.

      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
    3. Re: He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by dwillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      The fact that Bernie endorsed her during the general election means nothing, Cruz, and most the GOP candidates endorse trump even after he'd been insulting them during the primaries.

      The fact is that Hillary should be facing time in federal prison for multiple counts of at a minimum negligent mishandling of classified information, if not the more serious intentional mishandling of classified information. She has a trail of lies and corruption going clear back to being fired from the Watergate investigation for lying.

      Again, Trump was no angel, not by any means, But he was miles ahead of his opponent. The Dems rigged their own primary to choose the one candidate unable to beat someone as unlikeable as Trump.

      But since then, the economy is rocking, unemployment is low (record lows for minorities) Both mostly due to all the regulations that his administration has cut. We now have a renegotiated trade agreement with Canada and Mexico, NK is still at the bargaining table. The Embassy in Israel is where it belongs decades after congress passed a bill ordering it to be moved to Jerusalem. We have Justice Gorsuch and soon will have Kavanaugh on the court as well. (No corroborating evidence or witnesses).

      The list of winning just gets longer and longer

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    4. Re: He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 2

      She has a trail of lies and corruption going clear back to being fired from the Watergate investigation for lying.

      Speaking of lies...

      --
      Happy people make bad consumers.
    5. Re:He's not evil, he just doesn't give a shit by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Indeed. If you think the orange guy is merely a fluke, just remember how close Mrs. Palin came to being in power, considering McCain's uncertain health.

      As I mentioned before on slashdot, roughly 40% of the country are Yosemite Sams who put fellow Sams in office. If enough voters sit out an election over email drama or the like, then the Sams rule.

      I'd rather have somebody in power who screws up emails than who screws up everything because they personally enjoy chaos (T) and/or hate civilization (Palin).

  5. I am not defending him but ... by jgfenix · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Past a certain level if you want to reduce some contaminants the increase in cost can be exponential. So before having an opinion I would like to know is:

    What is the current limit? Is it reasonable? What is the cost? What is the new limit, it's cost, it's impact?

    Discussing this without knowing the specifics is an empty talk about how evil they are. We could have much more environmental friendly products if you are willing to pay 5000 for what now you pay 100 so it's important to establish a reasonable limit.

    1. Re:I am not defending him but ... by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not a single post so far tearing at it is anything but an emotional attack.

      Yet suggest this might have been over-regulation and you'd get a downmod. Make a minor observation that regulation can be abused for "donations" to back off, and hooo boy.

      "That'll learn him for talking about motivations instead of the science!" he said as he clicked the downmod button and then created a 4 paragraph screed at how evil Trump's real motivation was.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    2. Re:I am not defending him but ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And aside from that, it's halfway through the article that the word "could" is introduced, showing that the article is based on speculation about something that "could" happen if this proposal goes through.

      If the Trump administration does something that causes a "major weakening" of something the Obama administration put into place, then that means the Obama administration did a "major strengthening" of it -- which is apparent right in the summary: "which the E.P.A. considers the most expensive clean air regulation ever put forth in terms of annual cost to industry".

      I'm all for a cleaner environment, and if companies have been able to adjust for the Obama administration's policies, there may be no reason to dial anything back. I look forward to a time when we've shifted to mostly renewable energy sources. However, this article sounds like it's really being written as yet another attack on President Trump based on speculation. If the proposal goes through, and then is used to turn back the Obama administration's policies, then I'll admit the article was accurate. Especially if returning to pre-Obama mercury outputs destroys the world.

    3. Re:I am not defending him but ... by GrumpySteen · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you wanted specifics, you'd have read the article rather than posting questions that imply that this could be the right thing to do. A new limit isn't what's being proposed.

      This legislation forces any cost/benefit analysis to be done using only the benefit of the reduction in mercury output without considering the additional benefits from the reduction in soot and nitrogen oxide that the emission controls produce.

      Any analysis done would also have to ignore the cost of emission controls that would have to be put in place to keep soot and nitrogen oxide levels under legal limits, forcing any study to justify the cost of the emission controls based on the benefits of reducing mercury emissions alone.

      The point of all this is to make it much harder to justify the cost of lower emission level limits by limiting health benefits that you can consider. That will make it easier to overturn the previous rules in court, which will let the Trump administration to allow corporations to harm even more people in the name of higher profits.

    4. Re:I am not defending him but ... by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 2

      That would be fine except that Mercury stays in the environment and travels up the food chain. By changing the limits all you are doing is modifying the rate that it accumulates at the top of the food chain, us and other top predators.

    5. Re:I am not defending him but ... by hey! · · Score: 2

      The Obama era limitation amounted to no more than 6 grams (0.013 pounds) per gigawatt-hour. There, feel enlightened?

      Why did they set that particular limit?

      At the time the mercury limits were set (2011), there was considerable uncertainty about the exact impact in the population, although there was good reason to suspect mercury emissions were a problem. Mercury and mercury compounds found in combustion by-products are potent neurotoxins and can have a very long half-lives in the human body, in some cases nearly thirty years. This, along with its ability to bioaccumulate through the food chain, makes the economic effects of mercury emissions a serious concern.

      Children exposed to the kind of mercury compounds found in coal plant emissions have reduced intellectual capacity. The net impact on the US economy in lost productivity due to lost intellectual capability alone has been estimated at 87 billion year 2000 dollars (soruce). Naturally if you put error bars around that figure they would be huge.

      So given the uncertainty, why 0.013 pounds/GWh? Why not 0.02, or 0.005? Probably because it was as much as technologically feasible without forcing coal plants then operating to shut down. Since that point there have been measurable effects in population mercury levels, and the net long term benefits of the restrictions have been estimated at 43 billion annually (source).

      Nonetheless, there are uncertainties. Nobody can tell you what the precise effect of a 6 gram limit has been, particularly in an era when coal-fired electricity plants have been closing due to competition with natural gas; still there isn't much doubt that coal-based mercury emissions are a bad thing.

      Given the natural economic decline of coal, this regulatory change probably won't have much measurable economic impact. Will it harm people? Well, it's reasonable to assume that some children and infants downwind from the remaining coal plants might be harmed, but you won't be able to point to any one person with high mercury levels and quantify precisely how many IQ points he's lost or say with certainty his behavior control issues wouldn't have happened anyway. That was the status quo under the Obama era MATS regulations anyway.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
  6. I guess now that it is inevitable by bobstreo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    new rules like:

    "Lead, it makes paint better, and your car happier.'

    'Asbestos, high in fiber and fire retardants."

  7. It's not just you by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    or is this man truly evil?

    Trump is easily the worst person (competence, morals, decency, empathy, etc - pick your measure) to get to the office of president in my lifetime and I'm old enough to have lived during Nixon's administration. He surrounds himself with people who are somehow if anything worse in a lot of ways. There are prominent republicans who I respect and think could be good presidents even if I don't necessarily agree with their policy positions on a given topic. Trump is not even close to among them. I thought Bush Jr was a terrible president but I'd take him in a heartbeat over Trump. Reagan or Bush Sr would be a huge upgrade. Heck I'd happily take McCain (even with Palin) or Romney who I think were both competent and fundamentally decent people. No I'm not arguing the Democrats were notably better (they weren't) but literally every other president or candidate for either party in the last half centry would be an improvement over Trump.

    1. Re:It's not just you by Nidi62 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      or is this man truly evil?

      Trump is easily the worst person (competence, morals, decency, empathy, etc - pick your measure) to get to the office of president in my lifetime and I'm old enough to have lived during Nixon's administration. He surrounds himself with people who are somehow if anything worse in a lot of ways. There are prominent republicans who I respect and think could be good presidents even if I don't necessarily agree with their policy positions on a given topic. Trump is not even close to among them. I thought Bush Jr was a terrible president but I'd take him in a heartbeat over Trump. Reagan or Bush Sr would be a huge upgrade. Heck I'd happily take McCain (even with Palin) or Romney who I think were both competent and fundamentally decent people. No I'm not arguing the Democrats were notably better (they weren't) but literally every other president or candidate for either party in the last half centry would be an improvement over Trump.

      Trump is honestly the first President in my lifetime who I do not think is actually doing what they think is best for the country. The Bushes, Clinton, Obama, hell even the losing candidates like McCain, Gore, Kerry, Bill's scarier half, while I didn't agree with all of their policies, I did believe that for the most part they were doing what they thought was good for the country. That's really about all you can ask of a leader. Trump on the other hand, only cares about what's good for Trump, anyone named Trump, and anyone who supports him so long as they continue to support him and their support benefits Trump. It's "Trump, the whole Trump, and nothing but the Trump, so help you Trump."

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  8. Show the evidence by sjbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yet suggest this might have been over-regulation and you'd get a downmod.

    Present some actual evidence to support such a position and maybe you might get some thoughtful consideration. So far every suggestion of "over regulation" is really just an ideological statement rather than an evidence based consideration of the facts. Not all regulation is bad, particularly when it comes to toxic substances. Every bit of evidence points to this mostly being a needless handout to various industries (most notably coal) for financial gain of a few at the expense of the health and welfare of the many.

    1. Re:Show the evidence by Nidi62 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Coal can be shifted away from with the correct political will......Coal is a dying industry and they know it.

      "My grandpappy was a coal miner, my daddy was a coal miner, I'm a coal miner, and dammit, my children will be coal miners even if it kills 'em....which between mine accidents, black lung disease, and general lifestyle it probably will!"

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
  9. Re:The question is .... by Tx · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Mercury travels a long way, for example you can see in this infographic that a lot of Chinese mercury emissions end up in the USA.

    Come to think of it, that's probably what's yanking Trump's chain here - can't have American babies being poisoned by Chinese mercury when they could have good old-fashioned American mercury instead! America first, right?

    --
    Oh no... it's the future.
  10. Profit motives are dangerous by sjbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I work in IT for one of the most heavily over-regulated industries in this country, the medical laboratory.

    I've worked in labs in years past and my wife is a laboratory director of a pathology lab. I disagree that medical labs are "heavily over regulated". Labs are regulated to the degree they are for VERY good reasons and we've seen what happens when they aren't. The data they produce and the means they use to produce it has to be as reliable as we can make and market pressures are demonstrably inadequate to make that happen. The regulations that are in place ensure corners are not cut that should not be cut. That's not an argument that every regulation is a good one but just an observation that labs that are well run mostly are already doing the things that the regulations require anyway aside from a bit of extra documentation to prove it. But without this requirement the temptation of profit motives would rapidly overwhelm some people and we would all suffer in the long run as a result.

    We see our regulation as a challenge, not a burden. Why can't the coal industry?

    Because they have made a crap ton of money being comparatively unregulated and would like to continue to make more and there is no mechanism for accountability. In a medical lab if you screw up a specimen, that error is generally immediately traceable back to the lab and liability follows. But without regulation the volume of corner cutting would rapidly overwhelm the ability of the legal system to deal with the problem. Not to mention that liability is a post-hoc solution which doesn't help people already injured. There is no such feedback mechanism in place for the coal industry generally speaking and putting them in place makes them FAR less financially competitive than they are now. (that's probably a good thing but they obviously don't see it that way) They've gotten a free ride for years not having to pay for the full cost of the pollution they generate so it's hardly shocking that it's a real life tragedy of the commons.

  11. Re:conservatives by GameboyRMH · · Score: 2

    No justification needed these days, they'll just twirl their mustaches and cackle maniacally.

    Trump has taken the modern businessman's mask off of conservatism and exposed the face of the ancient evil underneath.

    --
    "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
  12. a twenty year plan by epine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This must be part of a twenty year plan to grow a new batch of Trump-style electors: people who confuse their tribe—and the size of its roar—with their political interests.

    I tend to see the recent political era as the ascendancy of people who can't explain anything.

    Trump has actually admitted an error or two. But he's still never explained a single physical or political mechanism with more than two moving parts.

    This is why Bannon was on Maher the other day suggesting that Bernie would have been more effective if his style was more like Michael Avenatti (which pot/kettle was this suggestion most intended to blacken by association?), and then immediately followed up on this by suggesting that maybe Oprah was the kind of person who could carry the Democratic nomination in the near future.

    Yeah, great: another person in bright glare of the media business, who's consistently light on explanation as a matter of personal style.

  13. Re:Has anyone else noticed.... by larkost · · Score: 2

    This is how things have worked for a long time. News organizations during President Obama's terms did the same thing, attributing things to "the Obama Administration". Largely in cases such as this it is justified; a change like this is pretty obviously being driven by the political appointees, not the administrative (non-political... or "deep state" if you will) long-term employees.