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Japan's Silent Submarines Extend Range With Lithium-Ion Batteries (nikkei.com)
AmiMoJo shares a report from Nikkei Asian Review: Japan's first submarine powered by lithium-ion batteries was launched on Thursday. The [Soryu-class diesel-electric] submarine can reach speeds of roughly 20 knots and displaces 2,950 tons. It will be delivered to the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force in March 2020. Batteries are recharged by the energy generated by Oryu's diesel engines. The vessel switches to batteries during operations and actual combat in order to silence the engines and become harder to detect. The lithium-ion batteries radically extend the sub's range and time it can spend underwater.
Plus, when they run out of charge, they double as torpedoes.
This news reminds me this nice game and endless batteries swapping while on high depth in lava biome.
I would think they'd make damage control very difficult though.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
If you like half the total energy efficiency and a fraction of the energy storage capacity compared to diesel/lithium ion combo then, yeah...way better!
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
They're glorified diesel Type XXI boats (WW2 German boats).
If you really want extended underwater capabilities, well, that's why they invented the nuke boats....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
If you like half the total energy efficiency and a fraction of the energy storage capacity compared to diesel/lithium ion combo then, yeah...way better!
Nuclear for the win
Pain is merely failure leaving the body
... out on the Big Pond.
Aviation Anti-Submarine Warfare Technician 2nd class.
The other side of the story is using hydrophones (waterproof microphones) to listen to the deep.
Every major country has these permanent stations anchored out across the oceans.
An audio spectrum analyzer sweeps the apparently random noise with tones from near zero up to the khz.
Obviously, when noise from the sea is the same frequency as the artificial pure tone, they are added together.
Rinse, repeat.
The results are charted with frequency on the X axis and amplitude on the Y.
A computer alerts when it sees a straight line, created over time.
That's the tone and sea noise agreeing when they coincide with the sounds of reefers (ice boxes), generators, prop cavitation, screw bearings, engine noises, and miscellaneous unwanted fingerprints.
We could tell you the fucking captain's name by the signature.
Aircraft drop sonobouys to do the same.
--
Then there's this:
Submarines, to date, have a lot of fucking metal that distorts the Earth's magnetic field locally.
Permanent or airborne magnetometers can pick up these small anomalies.
Sunken ships have long been logged and they don't move.
--
Then, there are active sonar devices, permanent or airborne (tethered from helicopters) that map the surroundings and alarm on novel or moving objects.
--
The submarine/anti-submarine balance of technology is similar to the battle of virus/antivirus one.
This latest improvement by the Japanese may or may not be better than existing or future state of the art detection.
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
The class also uses four of the same air-independent Stirling engines used in the Swedish Gotland class subs, each delivering about 100 horsepower. While not as quiet a fuel cells, they are still pretty quiet and are cheaper to operate.
So I guess what happens is that the submarine operates on the Stirling engines then shifts to batteries for combat.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Japan is probably kind of like "yeah, no" on nuclear reactors these days.
One hit that causes water to leak and it blows itself up.
WW II era submarines were not diesel-electric. They were electric underwater, diesel on the surface. A real diesel-electric uses a diesel to drive a generator that in turn drives electric motors. Obviously, this isn't possible when submerged.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
I guess you never heard of the snorkel?
If you like half the total energy efficiency and a fraction of the energy storage capacity compared to diesel/lithium ion combo then, yeah...way better!
Nuclear for the win
Only if you need to go far and or fast while you're submerged.
And nukes are much harder and more expensive to make quiet, and even then they'll never be as quiet as a sub running on batteries. You know how much noise a sub's batteries make? Go outside and try to hear your car's battery.
For defensive purposes, conventional subs are hard to beat.
Right...
Type XXI U-boats were a class of German diesel-electric Elektroboot (German: "electric boat") submarines designed during the Second World War. Four were completed during the war and only two were sent for combat patrol and these were not used in combat.They were the first submarines designed to operate primarily submerged, rather than spending most of their time as surface ships that could submerge for brief periods as a means to escape detection or to attack.
It must hurt your neck to walk around with such a big brain... Brad
I could have written "submerged below snorkel depth" but I assumed an intelligent reader. More to the point, I erred in claiming that WW II submarines were not actually diesel-electric. They actually were.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Clueless is clueless again. Kamikaze tactics had nothing to do with submarines.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Just for reference, and perhaps to save some future embarrassment, German "boot" is pronounced like Englilsh "boat".
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
No. That is the primary advantage of nuclear propulsion in submarines. Range.
The primary downside is extra cost/size and noise from having to keep reactor cooled at all times.
Kamikaze tactics had nothing to do with submarines.
Yes they did: Kaiten suicide subs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
German Type 212 up to 3 weeks of silent running on fuel cells.
Nuclear for the win
Nukes are hecka expensive. If you need globe traversing subs to support your blue water navy, they make sense. If you just want coastal defense in the East China Sea, they do not.
Many of the WWII era subs used a hybrid system. The USS Seawolf used early in the war had four diesels: two connected directly to the props, two connected to generators. The sub could only drive at max speed with all four diesels running, two driving the props directly, two supplementing the power by first generating electricity that was then fed directly to the motors on the props.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Nuclear also has it's issues. A diesel electric sub is much quieter, and therefore harder to detect, than a nuclear as long as the diesel electric is running in electric mode. The trade-off is that when running the diesel it's much, much, louder, and the all electric range tends to be limited. Nuclear allows longer range and relative quiet, but not as quiet as electric.
This is interesting because it extends that electric range, and therefore extends the advantage over nuclear in short term engagements.
Subs running on batteries still drive propellers that create noise. It's not the power source of a sub that is most important it is the advanced sensor suites capable of hearing a dolphin fart 100 miles away that makes it dangerous. There are no great technological secrets involved with building a modern day sub. Specs on everything from power sources to composite hull materials are available to anyone. The specs for the sensor suites and targeting systems are not so readily available. For a lot of countries costs determines what type of sub they build but countries such as the US have never shied away from developing cutting edge military technology regardless of how much it costs.
You know, if you're going to be a know-it-all and link wikipedia...
You should actually read your link.
"The propulsion of the Balao-class submarines was generally similar to that of the preceding Gato-class. Like their predecessors, they were true diesel-electric submarines: their four diesel engines powered electrical generators, and electric motors drove the shafts. There was no direct connection between the main engines and the shafts. "
So yes, WW II era submarines, were in fact, TRUE diesel-electric submarines. As per your link to - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
For a very short time, American prop-driven nuclear bombers were a thing.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Not quite.
The 5th Basic Energy Plan, approved in July 2018, maintains the same electricity percentages as agreed in mid-2015. It presents nuclear power as âoean important base-load power source contributing to the stability of the long-term energy supply-and-demand structure,â and states that necessary measures will be taken to achieve nuclear powerâ(TM)s share of 20-22% in the 2030 energy mix.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/i...
Japan shutdown all nuclear power plants for reviews on safety after the tsunami hit Fukushima. Since then Japan has declared many of the smaller and older plants unfit for restart, a few newer reactors have already been restarted, and about half of their nuclear power plant fleet is set to be restarted soon, and they have plans for the construction of new nuclear power plants. To get from near 0% to 20% nuclear in little over a decade means they intend to be very aggressive in refits on existing nuclear power and in construction of new nuclear power.
Japan has been restricted by their post-WWII constitution from having any military other than a small self defense force. An air force and/or navy capable of acting beyond territorial waters was barred to them as a condition of surrender, and today is considered provocative by their neighbors. Recent events has made Japan quite willing to build up a very real military, as well as the USA willing to give them the freedom to do so. World War II was a long time ago, and even memories of Fukushima are fading fast, given more pressing matters on energy policy and international politics.
I would not be surprised if Japan acquires nuclear submarines soon.
I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
You know, if you are going to get up on your high horse and be insufferable, maybe notice that I corrected my post with a follow up more than an hour before you felt compelled to trot out your own urgent clarification.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
The phrase you should be looking for is "natural circulation reactor". That's when you don't need reactor coolant pumps to get power out of your reactor.
They tend to be quieter than ambient. Which means you can detect them, with a sensitive enough sonar, by listening for the hole in the "normal" sea noise.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
1173 = model # Staffed by self defense unit 5O
The vessel switches to batteries during operations and actual combat in order to silence the engines and become harder to detect.
Like ... all diesel electric boats.
(I get that the point is that these are better batteries. That was just kind of weird.)
It's an anti-air missile, it's first flight is supposed to end badly. /s
If you like half the total energy efficiency and a fraction of the energy storage capacity compared to diesel/lithium ion combo then, yeah...way better!
Nuclear for the win
A diesel on batteries can be quieter ... slightly. (The nuke plant coolant system and the steam system must always run.) But the diesel can't be on batteries forever.
Pros and cons, pros and cons ...
if they are using a Lithium-Cobalt chemistry. Hopefully they've chosen a Lithium-Phosphate though. These are tough cells.
The article is too lacking.
From your own link: "this meant Kamikaze planes, Shinyo suicide boats, Kaiten submarines, and Fukuryu suicide divers". Saying "kamikaze submarine" is just illiterate.
Not offtopic. The bellycrawler with mod points was offtopic.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
Fuel cells *plus* batteries are perhaps the best solution. Or, more generally, (non-battery) AIP plus batteries.
Ezekiel 23:20
No it is not ...
But it not pronounced like the english boot, either, if that is your point.
The german boot is pronounced like the english bot, but with a very long "o".
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Lol, don't call others clueless if you have no clue.
Many late war submarines had mini subs, manned torpedoes, supposed to be used as kamikaze torpedoes. Luckily most submarine commanders refused to utilize them.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
And they can run the stirling engines under water, capturing the exhaust and running it with compressed air or compressed O2.
They actually can run combat missions with the stirling engine on, they sunk in "war games" a Nimitz class carrier several times.
A Gotland vessel is boroughed out to the US Navy to figure ways how to detect/defeat them.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Noise isn't necessarily the problem with nuclear reactors, it's the heat. They dump a bunch of heat into the water, which can be picked up by satellites. They have to go *deep* to evade detection this way, which limits where they can go. You won't be able to tell *exactly* where the sub is, but you get the idea that one is in the area, and it's general direction.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Subs running on batteries can turn off propellers. Nuclear subs always run cooling.
So when can we expect your free energy source?
Why would the Japanese name a warship after one of the carriers that went down at Midway, the battle that pretty much ended their empire?
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
If the Soviets could run a sub with a nuclear reactor cooled with liquid sodium, a substance that explodes when it touches water then LOX is a joke
The dangers of excessive individualism are nothing compared to the oppressiveness of excessive collectivism
How about an article about VPT lithium batteries for rebreather divers?
Those can also dive silently for much longer times than the old compressed air ones and it's useful for us as well.
Why mention 1943? The British built a diese/electric sub in 1910, the D1. The Germans ditto with U19. There were earlier petrol/electic subs (dangerous combination) but the vast majority of subs in WW1 were diesel/electric. There may have been even earlier diesel/electric subs built by Russia or France but I don't know, and the British built some steam-tubine/diesel ones (the K-class).
Sound like you have just been watching "Dr Strangelove". Those 1960's American airman rode bombs like they rode broncos; men were men then.
KyatapirÄdoraibu
You never expect irony, do you?
Want to be a professional wrestler? Visit www.iyfwrestling.com
@iyfwrestling
This is of course the problem with posting to a platform that doesn't let you either delete or edit posts. (I've run into this issue on occasion myself.) But on the other hand, it does encourage thought and consideration before hitting "Submit," so it's not all bad.
But before excoriating someone for not having read down further to see if you corrected yourself later before replying, ask yourself, do you scroll down and make sure first, yourself? In theory we should all be reading the entire conversation before posting, to avoid redundant posts, and to make sure we're not just doing the modern equivalent of talking back to the TV, (replying to a comment in the middle of a conversation that in a sense, has already happened,) but that becomes really impractical when there are more than maybe a few dozen comments in even one thread. I offer no specific solution here, just an observation.
Also, having arguements back and forth where the user-editable 'encyclopedia' Wikipedia is cited as a source... is perhaps less productive than it might seem. Just saying.
Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
Need not worry : the USA was among the first in submarine tech. They were used in the War of Independence and in the Civil War - tiny things driven by hand-turned propellors, not successful though.
Nuclear submarines can be detected by satellites which look for the heated water that was used for cooling. This is where batteries and fuel cells are better.
The German subs with fuel cells also have diesel generators because of that.
Their total range is actually larger than the Soryu class. Their endurance without snorkeling is 3 weeks, but I did not find that number for the Japanese boat.
Diesel electric submarine tech has been around close to a century so that's not new.
Running on electric is quieter and in the submarine warfare scenario, that is crucial.
Batteries don't radically extend range. What is likely is that the batteries have better range than previous types of batteries.
This is all information that is easily available and yet the referenced article reports on it poorly.
So ask yourself, "How accurate is the media when it comes to information that is hard to obtain?"
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.